September 13, 2021 • 45 mins
Jana shares the truth behind the headlines going around about her, and we find out what it means to be called “a smoke”.
Pastor Calvin Roberson from “Married at First Sight” gives Jana some valuable advice on how to move on after a relationship with infidelity.
Do you believe “once a cheater always a cheater”?? Pastor Cal has some shocking truths about people who cheat.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Jane Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.
You know, it's so annoying. What is that Mark only
comes on the show when something is like I just
had this feeling, Well here he comes, this little bobblehead.
(00:24):
I know, but it's just whenever anything is like in
the press or which there's that I don't know what
I'm talking about there, but um, it's just I'm like,
I bet you Mark is going to be on the
show because he's just a digger. He likes to dig
and he likes to poke and he likes to proud
because he's a producer. It is. It's a fine line
(00:44):
I want and I don't want to impose myself in
the show and I'm not needed. I don't want to
be in the way, but there are times when some
prodding could help the situation, right yeah, Because I mean
I have seen some stories you have some very complimentary
thank you. That's so sweet. I haven't looked or noticed
(01:08):
at all. It's so great because she just doesn't pay
attention stuff. No, it's it's awesome. And living my life
as a single mom and having fun and um, just
you know, I stay on social media. I love it
and I'm over here, like that's smart. But I will
tell you that I did see one article that says
that you are a smoke So wait, I'm sorry, can
(01:28):
we what does that mean? Um my understanding? Well I
always go great to Urban Dictionary in this. Yeah, well
I should read you the actual definition of it. But
is it now? Is a smoke which I believe is
often short for a smoke show wow, And a smoke
(01:49):
show is a word to described someone so hot that
you basically see the smoke coming off. That's so good man.
I got to get back on social media. I was
so nervous for a second. Was not going to me
in smoke show like trust me saying, um No, I
mean that's a lie to say. IM not on social media.
(02:09):
I I just don't. Um I've I learned from the
divorce to not read comments because people are very mean,
and I think there's just so much misinformation out in
the world in general that it's it's um my, my
heart is always like but that's not true, and it's
like it takes so much energy to like defend or
(02:32):
it's just so funny. Everyone thinks they have it all
figured out. They know everything that goes on and they
just you know, so what can you do? You can't?
You just gotta let it, let it ride. Is it
a weird feeling that if you choose to comment on
the you know, if there are twenty articles this week,
came on your podcast and said, uh, these aren't truer. Okay,
(02:54):
well that's true. Whatever you said, it would create twenty
more articles and probably forty articles next week. Is that
a weird feeling that you have that kind of power
to create this stuff? You know? I know, I think
I think I've learned lessons of speaking, you know, and
I think, um, yeah, I don't have no comment on
being a smoke. Oh thank you. My comment is being
a smoke is that's I'm very flattered, So thank you.
(03:17):
It's very sweets and um thanks Cat Hilcome. Okay, so,
speaking of my best dam, we're going to Vegas because
I Heart Music Festival is back gambling. Yes, we're being
So we're doing a pre show podcast hosted by me
(03:39):
and my best friend Catherine is gonna be with me.
It's gonna be a blast. Um. We're gonna have some
amazing artists and celebrities joining the show. We're gonna have
Tasha Adams, Chrissie Mets, Debbie Gibson, Joey McIntyre. Oh my god,
if I started singing any of his songs. Okay, thanks, Um,
(04:02):
Donny Osmond, Maddie and Kenzie Ziel. You love dance moms
and I love Um, I love their mom. They're so
sweet nine degrees obsessed. Do you know that their Christmas
album is probably one of the best Christmas albums of
all time? So good? Um and Teddy Mellencamp who She's
My Girl? So um so and so many more. So
(04:25):
get your tickets today at on location live dot com
and let's have fun and get lucky in Vegas. Hey, Hey, Hi, Hi,
it's good lucky. Okay, Okay. We have a really exciting
guest that's coming on today, Pastor Cal. And he has
(04:47):
a book out called Marriage Ain't for Punks. And he's
also a mentor on Married at First Sight, which is
Wednesday's on Lifetime Lifetime. Um. But I'm really pumped to
get him on and talk all things marriage. And actually
I think is in the waiting room now, so let's
bring him in. Hey, Pastor Cal, Hey, Janna, how are you?
(05:23):
I'm good, thank you? How are you I'm Janna and
this is my friend Catherine. Hi. Oh my goodness, I'm
so excited to have you on the show. Um. First
of all, I just your book. The title is just
fantastic because it's so true. Marriage is not for punks.
You know the name for punks. It's hard, it's it's
(05:46):
it's it's not an easy thing. It's it's pretty tough. Actually,
But do you know what, I'm possible and when it works,
it works great, It works so well. How long have
you been married? For my wife and I we've been
married for We're gonna year, okay, Yeah, And we're very
open and honest with people. We tell them, you know,
this is our we're second timer. As we get married
(06:08):
first time, very young and very dumb, and we made
a lot of mistakes. But this time it's it's still death.
Do us part voluntarily or involuntarily. You're gonna have to
day to leave. Yeah. My ex said the same thing,
but he's not here anymore. It's fine, it's fine. I
think everything you know, things happen, right. But yeah, it's
(06:32):
interesting when you say the young and dumb, because I think, well,
I mean, I definitely had a young and dumb moment.
I mean I was nineteen and had Elvis mary me
in Vegas and I only knew the guy for two weeks.
So there's you know, that's a young and dumb moment.
But there is something to be said to where, you know,
I've got a six year old daughter, and it's like,
how do I how do you tell your kids? Like, hey,
(06:54):
wait until you're a certain age because I even see
kids now, I mean, shoot, our you know, our are
someone who's helping us with our kids. She was twenty
three and she got married and she was twenty something.
I'm like, oh gosh, because I'm like, I just think
of all like them, how much I've grown from nineteen
to twenty three and then twenty three to twenty six
and then six to thirty, and it's like, I I
(07:16):
feel like I'm different people in those than those gaps. Yeah,
oh absolutely. It's one thing I talked about in the
book is is the you know, the beauty of change,
and that that we are always changing and you know
where you you're not the person you were when you
were twenty three, You're not the person you were last year.
You're not even the person you were yesterday. More than
(07:38):
likely because every experience we have in life changes us.
And I believe that for every relationship that's going to work,
you have to notify each other of when those changes happen.
My wife and I we still do that, you know,
we let each other know. You know, we're different now.
Things that I used to like I may not like
it anymore. My love language changes. I mean, all things
(07:59):
are changing, sidly, and that's the beauty and the excitement
of marriage, but also the challenge. What do you say
when people say that person will never change. I don't
believe that, not at all. Yeah, no, I don't believe.
I believe people change. People can change. The question is
when they do change, will you still be will you
(08:19):
want them? You know? Yeah, it doesn't mean you have
to stay be with them because they're changing. But everybody,
I guess. I don't know if I'm an idealist or
just an eternal optimist or what, but I I believe
that everyone can change. Everyone has the ability to change.
And you've heard it said Janna, you know, one once
a cheat, always a cheating. I mean what if we
(08:42):
what if we said that about about other things in
our lives, you know, you know, once uh, overweight person
always an overweight person or once you know what I mean. No,
people change, people grow, people are different, and uh, I
think we have to give people attitude to do that. No,
I mean, I are you for sure on that? And
I think you know, I've always been a huge advocate
(09:03):
that things people can change, and you can grow, and
you can learn and heal and and be a better person.
But there has to come a point too. And I
think you know experiences with my last relationship where I
kept saying, oh, it's gonna change, it's gonna change, it's
gonna change. But when the pattern keeps happening for six
years and you know, the cheating continues, it's like at
(09:25):
some point, like you gotta throw your hands up right
pastor and be like, hey, I like there is not
there's I don't see the change. And I'm not saying
you won't ever change, but you're clearly not changing in
our in this when like holding out for me, I'm like,
I'm the kind of person like I want to hold
out for like that change because now I'm like, oh,
now he's gonna change for the next person. Well that's
that sucks, you know, But like, yeah, but you're absolutely
(09:47):
right it's like, you know, you you have to determine
what your limits are. You have to determine where your
balance pretes are. Um as I mentioned before, were I'm
a second time or my wife is as well. And
you know, I've had people say, well, look if you guys,
you know, could you have made your first marriage work?
I said, you know what, I don't know? Maybe if
(10:08):
of course about knowing what I know now. Yeah, but
but at at that certain point, um, you know, you
have to ask yourself the question is this going to
be good for me going into the future with all
the trials and all the problems and all the almost
irreparable damage that the relationship, that this relationship is caused.
And if you're in a relationship where there's been irreparable damage,
(10:31):
the last thing you want to do is to stay
in it where it's it's damaging you. You know. So
you know, change can happen, people can change, But that's
still the question still is out there. You know, do
does that mean that you have to stay in that relationship? Yeah?
That's just like that's just like the tough part because
it's like after so many years, you're like, well, I've
(10:54):
waited this song so it's like the change has got
to come, But then you realize it's probably not going
to come with you, and it's hard to pass that
on to be like, oh, man, I fought for something
that now all that hard work is going to just
go into like this new blessinging romance that that I
fought for right or that people fight for And that
feels very unfair. Yeah it is, but you know, look this,
(11:18):
this is that this is one of the mysteries of relationships. Yes,
you can be in a relationship and look, am I
better than I was in my last marriage? Absolutely? You know.
Are you better than you were in your last marriage? Absolutely?
So yes, you may have done something to to to
to make him better, but those experiences also made you better, sure,
(11:38):
you know. And so we all get better, we're all different,
we're all better than we were, and we just have
to embrace that, you know. I mean, I look at
it like this that people come into your life for
a reason sometimes but not for a lifetime, you know.
And if someone's in your life and you change during
that time and you experience growth, and the trials that
(12:01):
you go through help you to experience a greater understanding
and a more pleasing personality than accept that that person
wasn't meant for you for the long term, so you
said earlier. So like, I've been married for fourteen years
and got married young, like you were saying earlier, Um,
so young. But so no, sorry that I referenced someone
(12:24):
that was so young, because I think about that all
the time, and I mean in our mayor just definitely
had ups and downs and so like you were saying earlier,
I'm so you know, we change, We changed through the
years every day all that. So it's like, how do
you recommend kind of you said that, y'all communicate that,
but it's like, obviously me and my husband have changed
a lot through that time, so it's like, you know,
(12:48):
how do you I mean, how do you know and
are aware of what you need to talk about and
what the changes. I mean, it's just it seems being
very aware yourself would be key, I guess, but that
just sounds hard to me. Yea, it is hard. It
is hard, and of course you don't marriageing for pomps,
but it is. It's it's very difficult to know this
(13:08):
and this is this is why I always encourage, you know,
constant communication and communication on on on deeper levels, not
just you know, talking about events and and you know,
how is your day and all that stuff. But communication
is difficult. It's so hard. It's hard to to to
talk about, you know, things that are painful. It's hard
(13:30):
to talk about things that you don't like anymore. It's
hard to talk about things in your spouse or in
your partner that you don't like anymore. But it's it's
just necessary. You have to have those tough discussions. You
have to have those tough arguments even in order for
it too, in order to get those things out in
order for it to work. But you're absolutely right, it's
tough for people who have been married. You're married young
(13:52):
now you're not the same person that you are that
you were. It requires an incredible amount of vulnerability, openness,
and and and introspection, you know, to to sit down
with your spouse and say, you know what, I want
to tell you how I'm different. I want to tell
you how I'm not the same person, and I want
to know how you're not the same person. And I I
don't want to find out how can these two new
(14:14):
people still stay together and still find love and still
discover the beauty and the newness that we all now share.
You know, it's it's it's tough, but it's necessary. Do
you think you could do that? Because I feel like
I would just cry, well, you know my problem, and
I would be like, this is how you've changed that
(14:36):
you can't you know, it's like but I mean this, yeah,
And that's where it's like you have to I guess,
like you just said point out how I've changed and said,
now you tell me how you've changed, And I guess
that would be a better way to have that conversation.
Why is it so hard? I mean because I feel
like I've I've definitely got it, but I've been doing
a better job at it over the years. But to
(14:58):
to have those vone rble conversations, it's your partner, it
should they should be your best friend, Like where where
does that go? Where? Like where does that piece go?
When shouldn't that be that person that you're just so
comfortable being like, hey, this is I'm going to be
vulnerable with you, Like I don't understand like how we're
that because I feel like I was a little bit
(15:19):
better with that in our marriage. But why it isn't
reciprocated or why it's harder for other people to like
get that. Yeah, it's because it's scary. It is scary
man to uh, to reveal yourself and too, to let
somebody know you know who you really are and what
you really feel and your deep dark secrets and and
(15:43):
and you're the things that you're not pleased about it.
I mean, it's it's really difficult to be that vulnerable.
I heard a psychologist put it this way. He said
that she said that when I reveal who I really am,
it's a dangerous thing because I'm telling you the deepest
parts of me um and if you don't accept those
deepest parts, I have nothing left. You have completely rejected
(16:04):
who I am. So people quite often will will will
hide those parts. You'll keep those parts for themselves because
they don't want to feel rejected. But if you're going
to experience great love, you also have to take great risks.
You also have to be willing to uh, to be
that open and to be that vulnerable and and unfortunately
a lot of people are are afraid of that, which
(16:26):
is why the divorce rate is so high. It's funny
because when we look at you know, arranged marriages like
which is what what I do. You know, we do
on the show sort of a new take on arranged marriages.
They have roughly a ninety five percent success rate arranged marriages,
and it's because they're not they're not romantic marriages. People
(16:47):
are getting together for a different reason. They're getting together
because number one, their families connect. Number two, they're building
legacies together. And what they're creating is a they're contributing
to the social stability of their community. And that's how
they look at it. They're not looking at it that
so that I love you, I love you, and we
just we just want to be together and see the
(17:08):
rainbows and the bunny rabbits and and you know, see
the clout of gold, and that's cool. But when you
have something that's much more firm, much more stable, to
build a relationship on the fact that we are actually
building something. Look, if I know that we have a
solid foundation. This is what my wife and we experienced
when we just determined and we we decided that look,
(17:30):
we're not going anywhere period. That's it. We know what
the pain of loss feels like, we know what the
pain of divorce feels like. We will we will never
experience that again. Once we've established that in our relationship,
we can argue because that has been established and irrespectable,
I respectable, what happens, We're not going anywhere. We will
(17:52):
be together unless something happens where it's like, you're just miserable, right,
because like you wouldn't want to stay in something that
you're just the since not picking, you know, not being
your partner and helping and growing. If person just like
throws it away, like you can't stay in that right, well,
well you know you look, here's the thing. Misery is
(18:16):
a part of marriage, sure, but not for like five years?
Could you be miserable? Like honestly, like if if I
ever get married again, if I'm miserable and like it is,
I'm in a five year, ten year misery, Like what
is the point I'd rather be alone? If I've tried
and I've done therapy and this person is still not
like doing their work, Like how is that healthy? Yeah?
(18:39):
I'm not the guy who to say stay in a
marriage under any give any search chance. I'm not going
to say that, but I am going to say, because
you know, for for all the couples that I've I've
talked to the last twenty some years. One one common
denominator that I've seen is that people do give up
too quickly. For sure. I've seen couples who have been
(19:01):
miserable for years have learned tools to cope and to
deal and to understand and to reveal. Look, I've seen
couples have been violent. I mean literally, I don't. I don't.
I don't advise the violence. I don't. I don't stand
for it all. But I've seen couples have been physically
violent towards one another, have come to an understanding of
(19:22):
why that was happening, have corrected their behavior, and have
accepted each other the corrected people that they that they become.
And the last time that I've checked, they have been
married down for twenty one years, happy, happy because they've
They've They've understood what the problem was. They isolated the problem.
(19:45):
They didn't they didn't attach the problem to the person,
but they took the problem, as I often say, and
they set it on the shelf and say, you know what,
that's the problem this year is attacking our marriage. How
do we attack that issue, not connect the issue to
the person, but so separate the issue from the person
and deal with the issue objectively. Two people have to
(20:06):
be willing to do that, and they have to be
willing to stay in this thing and work at it,
and they have to be vulnerable and realized, look, I
screw it up. And if you have a person who's
not willing to admit their error, that's a problem. And
that's when I see marriages decline. Yeah, I mean for sure.
I remember when I went into my therapist office. She
was like when I found out about you know, all
the affairs and stuff, my therapist is like, give it,
(20:28):
do not do anything for at least a year, yes,
And I'm like, what the did you decay? I think,
because like what now, like you're out of your mind,
Like how I can't even be in the same And
she's like, I need you to give it. Do not
make any drastic And I think you're right. I think
people do give up to you too easy. And I
(20:51):
think it's they're shiny objects over here, and there's a
shiny object over there, and it's it seems like a
quick fix, but there's not. But then the lead into
my point where she was I was saying, like, Okay,
then six years later, still misery still relapses. Okay, now
it's like, what do I want for my next fifty
you know, like I that's just not a life and
(21:12):
and neither for him to like you know, he's we
we weren't. Um, we were better off co parents and
that's the unfortunate truth. And you know, um yeah, and
again not something that I think we it's not like
you walk into that but knowing that marriage is really hard. Um.
But I'm curious, like, what do you say to the
(21:32):
people that they didn't cheat, they're not alcoholics, they don't
have um, there's really nothing wrong. They just kind of
feel stuck. Is it just going back to that same
like communication or is there something that can kind of
like jump started a little bit? Absolutely, and that this
is when this is when Kelseling comes in. You need
(21:53):
to look. I God, I've talked to so many people
who have been in that situation. I'm talking about people
been married for years. I'm tying ten, fifteen, twenty years,
and they felt stuck. And there's a way to become unstuck,
of course, you know, And yeah, we have started in
every individual, you know, because every situation is different. So
(22:14):
I can't give you just a carte blanche. You do
this magic thing improve you're unstuck it. Actually, you actually
have to one identify what that challenge is. What, Okay,
you know, why do I feel this way? And you know,
take the focus off your partner and put the focus
on you. Why do I feel? Like? Why do I
feel stuff? What if you don't know? Though, Like what
(22:35):
if you're like, I don't know? That's when a therapist
canna help you uncover that because a lot of times,
a lot of times, what you deal with in your
relationship has nothing to do with your relationship. It has
to do with some some craft that you've dealt with
in your history, has to do with some some stuff
you've dealt with in your past. I mean, I've I've
talked to numerous people who are who are carrying baggage
from their parents, carrying baggage from their old relationships, and
(22:58):
they're wondering, know, why is my marriage suffering? Where your
marriage is suffering because you never resolved those things from
your past and those things are weighing you down, and
they're weighing your spouse down. And when you have two
people who are dealing with some of the same kind
of challenges, you know, yeah, it's it's almost a sinking
ship that you're you're you're on so a lot of
(23:19):
times that that stuck feeling that thing that you know,
why is there a weight on us? Why is it
that our that that you know, we can't seem to
just be happy, we can't seem to just feel good.
I mean, what is that? I always said, I think
your your therapist was so right. Don't make any rast decisions.
The first thing you need to do individually is seek
(23:41):
some counseling and find out, first of all, is there
something about me that's causing me to be stuck not
only in my marriage, but in other areas of my
life as well, and that needs to be uncovered with
some serious, some serious interventions. Mhm, great, church rightious. Good.
(24:04):
What's been the biggest, um, the biggest lesson that you've
kind of or not said lesson, but um awakening I
guess that you've had to realize with marriage. Yeah, I guess, well,
there's so many, but I guess one thing that comes
to mind, uh, is that you know, there is no
(24:28):
perfect marriage. There is no that all my expectations have
to be altered and normalized, you know, and I think
that there's nothing that's that that's perfect, that that's going
to be exactly what I expected to be. But it's
probably better than you know, what what other people are
(24:52):
going through as well. I tell people this all the time,
you know, for all the people who complain about their relationships.
If you were to take everyone and sit them, stand
me in a circle and somehow take all your problems
and throw them in the middle, and if everyone could
stand around and look at those problems in the middle,
I will bet you you'd take yours back. Yes, Now,
everybody's going through their own bs. Everybody's going to their
(25:15):
own kind of crap man, and you know, you we can,
you know, monumentalize ours and say, oh my god, this
is the worst thing in the world. But yeah, it's
never as bad as you think it is. There's never
you know, the grass is never really grieving on the
other side. That's so true. And just to share a
quick little story, I went to get a new computer
(25:35):
and the guy that sold me the computer he was blind,
and I just, I don't know, I just kind of
felt this nudge to just have conversation with him, and
you know, so I started talking to him, asking where
he's from, and um, I could just see him kind
of uh loosen up a little bit and um start
smiling and it just warm my heart. And so then
I started asking him about you know, I said, if
(25:56):
it's if it's okay to ask, you know, how long
if was this? Were you born blinder? And he just
started telling a story and it was fascinating. And then
he goes, and you know what, and he said, exactly
what you just said. He goes, if if we all
sat in a circle, we put all of our in
the middle of the room. He goes, I will take
my blindness over any of the other stuff that people
put in the middle. And I was just like it
(26:17):
was just like it almost like made it started interior. Wow,
that's so true. Like we all have our stuff, and
it's just how we find the gratitude in and how
we grow from it, how we learn from it, and
how we are grateful, like, Okay, it's not really that bad.
It's not And if we could just tell ourselves that,
I mean, it's you know, my wife always used this
illustrations that the building always looks until intimidating. It always
(26:39):
looks large when you're standing right at the front entrance,
you know, you look up its Oh my god, that
is a looming building. That is the biggest thing. But
when you step back, the further you go back from it,
you notice, wait a minute, you know, it tends to
come into focus. I think most of the time we
have to step away from our situations so we can
sit back and look at it objective and say, okay, fine,
how bad is this actually? M hm? You know, how
(27:01):
how bad was this argument? Did my didn't you know?
Did my husband hit me? Did my wife? No, it
wasn't any of that. Okay, fine, you know, are they?
Are they a bad person? I asked to I asked
a couple of this once, um on on on on
the show Married at First Sight, and I asked her.
I said she was complaining about a relationships. I said,
if you were to give you a relationship a grade
from A to F, what would it be? And she said, well,
(27:25):
probably a B minus. I said, oh my gosh, you
realize how people have been married for fifty years when
A see and if I got to be minus in school,
I'd be celebrating. So that sounds pretty damn good. Be minus. Hey,
we're having a party. Yeah, Oh my gosh. It's perspective.
It's all perspective. Do you like doing merrit at first sight?
(27:48):
Because I mean it's it's so fun. I I really do.
It's you know, and probably for a different reason. Uh,
it's not. It's not the TV. TV is great, you know,
but it's not just that when you when you have
I think right now we have about sixteen successful individuals,
you know, we have like eight babies. I mean that
(28:09):
is the kind of stuff that just were like making families. Man,
and Jamie Otis was on Married at First Sight, right, Yeah,
we're friends on Instagram. She's a sweetheart and I and
I'm just like, wow, that's so crazy that that actually works,
you know. And you're that's a lot better than the
Bachelor Bachelor, right, So yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna brochade,
(28:31):
but you're absolutely right, we're knocking them out the water.
But it's great. And then do you have how many kids?
Do you have? Three? Have three? So because you know,
you're so aware and I've shoot, I've done a lot
of childhood work and realizing how what how that has
brought into my adult life and I've been so mindful
(28:53):
of like, Okay, what what is going to be my
part that I play in my children's life now with um,
their traumas that I'm gonna I got, I'm gonna have
to probably bring something that I don't know if it's
not going to be the divorce or whatever, but is
there something that are you mindful of ways that you
communicate with your kids so that, um, they're not going
to be sitting in therapy. It's just talking about y'all. Yes,
(29:19):
they might still be sitting in therapy. But god, you know,
it's kind of funny because you know, I have I
have a you know, two millennials and and one who
is just outside outside that that are or somewhere, and
I don't know they are, but but it's a whole
different way of thinking. I I don't understand them anymore.
(29:44):
But yeah, but you know, but yeah, you're absolutely right.
I tried to pour as much openness and honesty and
kindness and understand again them so that they they can
you know, have some kind of balance and success. As
a matter of fact, it's funny because I guess all
three of them come to me when they're having issues
(30:05):
and challenges and we sit down and they do talk
about their their issues. You know, Dad, what do you
think about this? How do you pass rewarding you know,
so so like open communication, keep the keep the open.
And then for for those of us that are in
the dating world, what do what do you recommend for?
(30:26):
For that? I gotta I gotta hear it. Girl? Do
you do? You? Do you? Okay? You marry you? You're
you're singing? Do you have a checklist? I have boxes? Okay,
you have boxes to be checked, Yes, the check but okay,
but you know it's like the list is like this,
and then I have like they're like boxes. That's how
I visually. Oh man, I guess I've never really um uh, well,
(30:51):
they don't go any and I'm not gonna won't go
through the list. Okay, fine, I don't know. Let's say
like between five to ten, so too many five thinking boxes?
I would say, what's the right answers? The right answer
I want to be I would say that if you know,
(31:12):
and this is not just for you, but anyone who
has checklists or boxes or any of that, um, I
would say destroy them. No, what I would say, destroy
your boxes, destroy your Let me tell you something first
of all, and you're you're okay because you you you've
(31:33):
been married before. Yes, and you've gone through something. I
would bet you that some of your boxes are based
on what you've gone through. I'm gone, I'm with you.
I get that. But here's the thing you create. You've
created boxes. And again it's not just you, but most
people create boxes based on what they've seen, based on
(31:55):
what they've experienced and said, you know what, I don't
want that. And here's the problem. You may meet someone
who might remind you of something from your past, and
immediately you'll dismiss them because they remind you from something
of their past, of your past. But you know, I
learned this when I actually sat with the therapist after
my first marriage, and the therapist told me this. She said, cal,
(32:20):
you're gonna meet people who remind you of what you
went through. What I need you to do is to
ignore that, okay, because here's the thing. There are some
things that are peculiar to limit There are some things
that are peculiar to all men. And what you're doing
now is you're just just taking up making a blanket
(32:40):
statement about all people. Because because you have too many girlfriends,
too many female friends, or you have you know, you
don't listen. You kind of talk when I'm talking or
you or you have all these things that come from
your past. You're constantly dismissing people. These are probably things
that are fixable. They may not been fixable with your ex,
but they're stable with you. They might be fixable with
(33:01):
this next person. So tell people often is that if
you have a checklist, forget it. When I did, I
did a couple of years of law school before I
twit and hated it. But when I was in law school,
the first day I professor told us, he said, some
of you have taken political science. Raise your hand. Some
of you have parents who attorney is. Raise your hand.
They all did. Some of you may have worked in
law firms. Raiser and they are Some of others did.
(33:23):
He said, So some of you might think you know
some things about the law right and some raise your hand.
He said, you know nothing. Forget everything you've learned, because
what you're going to learn he is completely different. This
is nothing like you've ever experienced. And I think that
every marriage has that element. The next marriage is nothing
like the last one. It's this marriage that I have now,
Oh my god, like it's nothing like my ex, my
(33:46):
last man. And so I had to have a completely
open mind. For single people out there, you have to
have a completely open mind. You honestly have to start
with a blank slate and give everybody a clear new
chance of impressing you without any expectations. I love that
and I just realized this. I was like, Oh, you
guys must have co parented done with the older kids. Yes, yes,
(34:09):
yes we're yes, we're blended fan. So was that difficult?
And what's the best advice for you know, my my
co parenting situation, because it can, it has its ups
and downs. It's co parenting ain't for punks either. Let
me tell you that too. Yeah, call me, are we
gonna We're gonna have a conversation. Co Parenting is tough.
(34:32):
But here's the thing, and this is whether you're co
parenting or parenting, or whether you're both of the biological parents.
I tell people, first of all, never, this is going
to be a little tough. Never put your children above
your spouse. Never put your children. Never put your children
about the ex spouse or the No, I love your
(34:53):
current spouse. Why what I think that's that's always I
was going to stop and let the marinate per sect. No,
I need to what do you like my kids are
my Your kids are your world, absolutely and they should
be right now because you're a single parent. Well, once
you get married. This is what children, This is what
(35:14):
I found the children need. I love how you let
that man for a minute. Uh, this is what children need.
Children need first of all, parents who are happy with
each other. Mhm. Children need parents who are communicating, who
are vulnerable, who argue and make up, and so they
(35:40):
can see that entire progression of having a conflict and
then knowing how to get out of that conflict and
then seeing you happy again. I think that's one of
the healthiest things for children. Things for children is to
see for them to see that their parents are normal,
that they're happy, and that they were in love, and
that they they are a unified front. And I think
that what I've seen quite often is it when when
when I see either biological or co parenting situations where
(36:04):
people have put their children above their parents, the children
have to choose between whether or not they're going to
be Uh where where where? Yeah? Where parents have put
their children above Yeah. Well you know what I'm saying.
Children to choose between almost like, well, mom is putting
(36:25):
me again over dad, So then where do I fit
in this thing? Because if if mom is looking at
me as more important than Dad, then I must be
more important to dad, and then I'm going to treat
Dad accordingly. Or if Dad is putting mom thinks Paul,
mom is more important than me, then I must be
(36:47):
more important than mom. And I've seen this. I've seen
it where I've seen fathers place a higher estimation on
their children than they do their wives. And the children start,
the children start treating their mothers like the father does.
M hm. You know, children don't want to be above
their parents. Children don't want they don't want to be
(37:10):
valued higher than their parents. They want their parents to
be like little gods. They want their parents to be
higher than them. That gives them security, It gives them
that kind of feeling that you know, I have someone
who can protect me. And if both parents are realizing that, hey,
we are the leaders of this room. We are the
ones who are taking care of you, and we're always
(37:31):
a united front and irrespectable. What you bring to the table,
we're gonna be in sync on it, and we're going
to be the ones who you will never be able
to separate us. We'll go through our crap, will argue,
will be okay, but we're going to be your parents.
We're going to be in charge. We're the ones who
are superior. And I hate to say that that way,
but that's the way it is. Children want that. No,
(37:52):
it makes that makes sense. I've always you know, I've
always heard that in like your marriage and then like
the biological parents. You know, obviously it's like you know,
I've always I believe it's God and then your spouse
and then your kids. But it's interesting going into a
new marriage with kids where it's a stepparent. That's where
I think it could get a little bit tricky. It's like,
now these are my kids, but like putting him first.
(38:15):
So that's where it would be more of a challenge,
I feel like. And the first thing you have to
do is eliminate step you know. I I came into
my daughter's life when she was seven and she's twenty
one now, and I have she I have never presented
(38:36):
myself as her stepdad. I'm never calling myself for a stepdad,
and she has never seen me as her stepdad. I'm
her dad as far as she's concerned. Now that she
she has a biological father, she calls him also, you know,
she refers to him as daddy, But I am her
biological Well, I tell her, I I joke around and
tell her I'm a biological dad. That's me. But it's okay.
(39:00):
I'm sure her dad doesn't listen to this, but I
am her dad. And even with her, she understands that
I can't get between you and mom. I mean, I've
heard the boys say that I never here to say, Okay,
I know that whatever I say to you, you're gonna tell,
You're gonna tell, you know, mom whatever, whatever, because and
they realized, you know that, hey, it's us against them always,
(39:24):
even even with the biological children. But you need to
parents who are going to be who are going to
be honest and open with these children. I mean, I
would never treat my my my daughter, my non biological
daughter any lesson I treat the boys. I just wouldn't
for sure. I mean, I love her like she's like
I was there in the in the in the delivery
bo and in your book. Uh, what can readers expect
(39:49):
when they read Mary Jane for Punks? They can expect
a very straightforward, hard hitting realistically of marriage. It's not
it's not the kind of book that glosses over the
tough issues. Um, we were in the book. We're talking
about boundaries. I'll give it. I'll give a little example, Okay, Um,
(40:14):
one story, this is a little is gonna be I'm
giving a little a little a little depth there is
might be a little deep. But I talked about we
don't get deep at all on this podcast, so it's fine,
don't worry about it. I talked about one story where
the wife and the bride and groom they married and
they were a biracial couple, interracial couple. Well he was okay,
(40:35):
he was black and she was white, whatever you call that.
So they got married. I don't know what they they
got married, but they got married against their parents wishes, um,
and they were Um. They were married, and they were
enjoying life and everything. They felt that love could conquer
(40:55):
all that all we need is love, and so they
married each other, they had a baby. They were just
enjoying life until one day he came home. You know,
he's black and she's white. He came home and he
was pretty upset about something that happened at work, and
he felt as though he was he was discriminated against
Well she um. She responded and said, well you sure.
(41:17):
He said, well, yeah, I'm sure. She said, well, what
do you mean, maybe it was something else? Maybe said no,
I know, because others got this and I didn't get this.
And so he wanted her to understand that, and she
she had was a counterpoint, which was fine. And then
in the middle of their arguing, he said, well, you
don't understand because your privilege, you never had to deal
(41:38):
with this, and she she said, well why, well, why
are you acting like an N word? Oh? Yeah, that's
the beginning of the chapter. Oh, oh, my gosh. And
then she called me, this is an actual situation. I
changed all the names protectically, but this is an actual story.
And so I got a phone call saying, hey, eight,
(42:00):
can you come help us. Our marriage is about the
fall apart because he walked out, and and so then
the rest of that chapter I show how we were
able to establish boundaries and how we were able to
resolve those issues. And every chapter starts with a story
about a couple, whether it's infidelity, whether it's bad communication,
(42:21):
whether it's I don't know, co parenting, or what have you.
Each chapter starts with a real life story or loosely
based on a real life situation because I can't I
can't tell every about business, but it's based on a
real life situation. And then throughout that chapter I show
you how we resolve those issues. Wow. Well, I just
cannot thank you enough for coming on the show. I
(42:42):
can't wait to read the book. And um, where can
our listeners find you? You can find me on Instagram.
I am Calvin Robertson. Uh. You can buy the book
wherever books are sold. And let me just say that
book is for everyone, because I think when I was
writing it, I intentionally wrote it for married people, single
people who are thinking about getting married, people who are divorced.
(43:03):
Whatever stage you're in, you're going to find something in
this book. Even if you want to know how to
how to remove yourself from certain people. Uh, and still
remains silk everyone. I just want to say, wherever you
are in your in the spectrum of relationships, the book
will we'll have something for you. That's awesome. Well, thank
(43:23):
you so much for coming on the show. This is
the true joy. So thank you. It was such a pleasure.
Thank you guys. You did great. Thank you so much.
Thank you. You're so sweet. I love your energy. Thank you.
This is you guys are awesome. Thank you you guys.
Right bye? Oh god, I loved him going to buy
(43:57):
the book, being up on the book. Yes, uh no,
that was good because that's gotta be tough. I mean,
you didn't marry so young that you have to be
totally different than the girl that you married, that that
he you know that he married. Yeah, I mean that's
such a good point, like you realize that. But like
him saying it, I was like, oh, yeah, like I
know I've changed as I'm twenty, but like it's such
(44:18):
a good point. How much you change in those he changes,
I change, and how do you reconnect like new people essentially,
which is crazy. I don't know, it's a lot, but yeah,
would it be too much for you to read the
book together? Hey? You know what I'm with, cal I think,
you know, the personal therapy on our own, on our own,
(44:42):
and then some couples therapy. I think it is probably
are we doing individual therapy? I gotta call Okay, I'm
proud of you. That's like we've done it before. To
just spen a long time. But he brought up a
really really great point. Sometimes it's not about the other person.
It's about yourself, which I you know, I've acknowledged about myself. Yeah.
(45:03):
It's so hard though, but when you do, it's good.
You start to not point the finger and shoot, it's
time for me to look in the mirror. That's not
fun times. Um A well fun show. And oh we're
going to be in Vegas this weekend. I'm so excited
and you're coming with me girlfriends, so uh, let's let's
(45:25):
take some wine for this one. Yes, yeah, okay, it'll
be fine. I can't wait. Fine,
Wine Down with Jane Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.
You know, it's so annoying. What is that Mark only
comes on the show when something is like I just
had this feeling, Well here he comes, this little bobblehead.
(00:24):
I know, but it's just whenever anything is like in
the press or which there's that I don't know what
I'm talking about there, but um, it's just I'm like,
I bet you Mark is going to be on the
show because he's just a digger. He likes to dig
and he likes to poke and he likes to proud
because he's a producer. It is. It's a fine line
(00:44):
I want and I don't want to impose myself in
the show and I'm not needed. I don't want to
be in the way, but there are times when some
prodding could help the situation, right yeah, Because I mean
I have seen some stories you have some very complimentary
thank you. That's so sweet. I haven't looked or noticed
(01:08):
at all. It's so great because she just doesn't pay
attention stuff. No, it's it's awesome. And living my life
as a single mom and having fun and um, just
you know, I stay on social media. I love it
and I'm over here, like that's smart. But I will
tell you that I did see one article that says
that you are a smoke So wait, I'm sorry, can
(01:28):
we what does that mean? Um my understanding? Well I
always go great to Urban Dictionary in this. Yeah, well
I should read you the actual definition of it. But
is it now? Is a smoke which I believe is
often short for a smoke show wow, And a smoke
(01:49):
show is a word to described someone so hot that
you basically see the smoke coming off. That's so good man.
I got to get back on social media. I was
so nervous for a second. Was not going to me
in smoke show like trust me saying, um No, I
mean that's a lie to say. IM not on social media.
(02:09):
I I just don't. Um I've I learned from the
divorce to not read comments because people are very mean,
and I think there's just so much misinformation out in
the world in general that it's it's um my, my
heart is always like but that's not true, and it's
like it takes so much energy to like defend or
(02:32):
it's just so funny. Everyone thinks they have it all
figured out. They know everything that goes on and they
just you know, so what can you do? You can't?
You just gotta let it, let it ride. Is it
a weird feeling that if you choose to comment on
the you know, if there are twenty articles this week,
came on your podcast and said, uh, these aren't truer. Okay,
(02:54):
well that's true. Whatever you said, it would create twenty
more articles and probably forty articles next week. Is that
a weird feeling that you have that kind of power
to create this stuff? You know? I know, I think
I think I've learned lessons of speaking, you know, and
I think, um, yeah, I don't have no comment on
being a smoke. Oh thank you. My comment is being
a smoke is that's I'm very flattered, So thank you.
(03:17):
It's very sweets and um thanks Cat Hilcome. Okay, so,
speaking of my best dam, we're going to Vegas because
I Heart Music Festival is back gambling. Yes, we're being
So we're doing a pre show podcast hosted by me
(03:39):
and my best friend Catherine is gonna be with me.
It's gonna be a blast. Um. We're gonna have some
amazing artists and celebrities joining the show. We're gonna have
Tasha Adams, Chrissie Mets, Debbie Gibson, Joey McIntyre. Oh my god,
if I started singing any of his songs. Okay, thanks, Um,
(04:02):
Donny Osmond, Maddie and Kenzie Ziel. You love dance moms
and I love Um, I love their mom. They're so
sweet nine degrees obsessed. Do you know that their Christmas
album is probably one of the best Christmas albums of
all time? So good? Um and Teddy Mellencamp who She's
My Girl? So um so and so many more. So
(04:25):
get your tickets today at on location live dot com
and let's have fun and get lucky in Vegas. Hey, Hey, Hi, Hi,
it's good lucky. Okay, Okay. We have a really exciting
guest that's coming on today, Pastor Cal. And he has
(04:47):
a book out called Marriage Ain't for Punks. And he's
also a mentor on Married at First Sight, which is
Wednesday's on Lifetime Lifetime. Um. But I'm really pumped to
get him on and talk all things marriage. And actually
I think is in the waiting room now, so let's
bring him in. Hey, Pastor Cal, Hey, Janna, how are you?
(05:23):
I'm good, thank you? How are you I'm Janna and
this is my friend Catherine. Hi. Oh my goodness, I'm
so excited to have you on the show. Um. First
of all, I just your book. The title is just
fantastic because it's so true. Marriage is not for punks.
You know the name for punks. It's hard, it's it's
(05:46):
it's it's not an easy thing. It's it's pretty tough. Actually,
But do you know what, I'm possible and when it works,
it works great, It works so well. How long have
you been married? For my wife and I we've been
married for We're gonna year, okay, Yeah, And we're very
open and honest with people. We tell them, you know,
this is our we're second timer. As we get married
(06:08):
first time, very young and very dumb, and we made
a lot of mistakes. But this time it's it's still death.
Do us part voluntarily or involuntarily. You're gonna have to
day to leave. Yeah. My ex said the same thing,
but he's not here anymore. It's fine, it's fine. I
think everything you know, things happen, right. But yeah, it's
(06:32):
interesting when you say the young and dumb, because I think, well,
I mean, I definitely had a young and dumb moment.
I mean I was nineteen and had Elvis mary me
in Vegas and I only knew the guy for two weeks.
So there's you know, that's a young and dumb moment.
But there is something to be said to where, you know,
I've got a six year old daughter, and it's like,
how do I how do you tell your kids? Like, hey,
(06:54):
wait until you're a certain age because I even see
kids now, I mean, shoot, our you know, our are
someone who's helping us with our kids. She was twenty
three and she got married and she was twenty something.
I'm like, oh gosh, because I'm like, I just think
of all like them, how much I've grown from nineteen
to twenty three and then twenty three to twenty six
and then six to thirty, and it's like, I I
(07:16):
feel like I'm different people in those than those gaps. Yeah,
oh absolutely. It's one thing I talked about in the
book is is the you know, the beauty of change,
and that that we are always changing and you know
where you you're not the person you were when you
were twenty three, You're not the person you were last year.
You're not even the person you were yesterday. More than
(07:38):
likely because every experience we have in life changes us.
And I believe that for every relationship that's going to work,
you have to notify each other of when those changes happen.
My wife and I we still do that, you know,
we let each other know. You know, we're different now.
Things that I used to like I may not like
it anymore. My love language changes. I mean, all things
(07:59):
are changing, sidly, and that's the beauty and the excitement
of marriage, but also the challenge. What do you say
when people say that person will never change. I don't
believe that, not at all. Yeah, no, I don't believe.
I believe people change. People can change. The question is
when they do change, will you still be will you
(08:19):
want them? You know? Yeah, it doesn't mean you have
to stay be with them because they're changing. But everybody,
I guess. I don't know if I'm an idealist or
just an eternal optimist or what, but I I believe
that everyone can change. Everyone has the ability to change.
And you've heard it said Janna, you know, one once
a cheat, always a cheating. I mean what if we
(08:42):
what if we said that about about other things in
our lives, you know, you know, once uh, overweight person
always an overweight person or once you know what I mean. No,
people change, people grow, people are different, and uh, I
think we have to give people attitude to do that. No,
I mean, I are you for sure on that? And
I think you know, I've always been a huge advocate
(09:03):
that things people can change, and you can grow, and
you can learn and heal and and be a better person.
But there has to come a point too. And I
think you know experiences with my last relationship where I
kept saying, oh, it's gonna change, it's gonna change, it's
gonna change. But when the pattern keeps happening for six
years and you know, the cheating continues, it's like at
(09:25):
some point, like you gotta throw your hands up right
pastor and be like, hey, I like there is not
there's I don't see the change. And I'm not saying
you won't ever change, but you're clearly not changing in
our in this when like holding out for me, I'm like,
I'm the kind of person like I want to hold
out for like that change because now I'm like, oh,
now he's gonna change for the next person. Well that's
that sucks, you know, But like, yeah, but you're absolutely
(09:47):
right it's like, you know, you you have to determine
what your limits are. You have to determine where your
balance pretes are. Um as I mentioned before, were I'm
a second time or my wife is as well. And
you know, I've had people say, well, look if you guys,
you know, could you have made your first marriage work?
I said, you know what, I don't know? Maybe if
(10:08):
of course about knowing what I know now. Yeah, but
but at at that certain point, um, you know, you
have to ask yourself the question is this going to
be good for me going into the future with all
the trials and all the problems and all the almost
irreparable damage that the relationship, that this relationship is caused.
And if you're in a relationship where there's been irreparable damage,
(10:31):
the last thing you want to do is to stay
in it where it's it's damaging you. You know. So
you know, change can happen, people can change, But that's
still the question still is out there. You know, do
does that mean that you have to stay in that relationship? Yeah?
That's just like that's just like the tough part because
it's like after so many years, you're like, well, I've
(10:54):
waited this song so it's like the change has got
to come, But then you realize it's probably not going
to come with you, and it's hard to pass that
on to be like, oh, man, I fought for something
that now all that hard work is going to just
go into like this new blessinging romance that that I
fought for right or that people fight for And that
feels very unfair. Yeah it is, but you know, look this,
(11:18):
this is that this is one of the mysteries of relationships. Yes,
you can be in a relationship and look, am I
better than I was in my last marriage? Absolutely? You know.
Are you better than you were in your last marriage? Absolutely?
So yes, you may have done something to to to
to make him better, but those experiences also made you better, sure,
(11:38):
you know. And so we all get better, we're all different,
we're all better than we were, and we just have
to embrace that, you know. I mean, I look at
it like this that people come into your life for
a reason sometimes but not for a lifetime, you know.
And if someone's in your life and you change during
that time and you experience growth, and the trials that
(12:01):
you go through help you to experience a greater understanding
and a more pleasing personality than accept that that person
wasn't meant for you for the long term, so you
said earlier. So like, I've been married for fourteen years
and got married young, like you were saying earlier, Um,
so young. But so no, sorry that I referenced someone
(12:24):
that was so young, because I think about that all
the time, and I mean in our mayor just definitely
had ups and downs and so like you were saying earlier,
I'm so you know, we change, We changed through the
years every day all that. So it's like, how do
you recommend kind of you said that, y'all communicate that,
but it's like, obviously me and my husband have changed
a lot through that time, so it's like, you know,
(12:48):
how do you I mean, how do you know and
are aware of what you need to talk about and
what the changes. I mean, it's just it seems being
very aware yourself would be key, I guess, but that
just sounds hard to me. Yea, it is hard. It
is hard, and of course you don't marriageing for pomps,
but it is. It's it's very difficult to know this
(13:08):
and this is this is why I always encourage, you know,
constant communication and communication on on on deeper levels, not
just you know, talking about events and and you know,
how is your day and all that stuff. But communication
is difficult. It's so hard. It's hard to to to
talk about, you know, things that are painful. It's hard
(13:30):
to talk about things that you don't like anymore. It's
hard to talk about things in your spouse or in
your partner that you don't like anymore. But it's it's
just necessary. You have to have those tough discussions. You
have to have those tough arguments even in order for
it too, in order to get those things out in
order for it to work. But you're absolutely right, it's
tough for people who have been married. You're married young
(13:52):
now you're not the same person that you are that
you were. It requires an incredible amount of vulnerability, openness,
and and and introspection, you know, to to sit down
with your spouse and say, you know what, I want
to tell you how I'm different. I want to tell
you how I'm not the same person, and I want
to know how you're not the same person. And I I
don't want to find out how can these two new
(14:14):
people still stay together and still find love and still
discover the beauty and the newness that we all now share.
You know, it's it's it's tough, but it's necessary. Do
you think you could do that? Because I feel like
I would just cry, well, you know my problem, and
I would be like, this is how you've changed that
(14:36):
you can't you know, it's like but I mean this, yeah,
And that's where it's like you have to I guess,
like you just said point out how I've changed and said,
now you tell me how you've changed, And I guess
that would be a better way to have that conversation.
Why is it so hard? I mean because I feel
like I've I've definitely got it, but I've been doing
a better job at it over the years. But to
(14:58):
to have those vone rble conversations, it's your partner, it
should they should be your best friend, Like where where
does that go? Where? Like where does that piece go?
When shouldn't that be that person that you're just so
comfortable being like, hey, this is I'm going to be
vulnerable with you, Like I don't understand like how we're
that because I feel like I was a little bit
(15:19):
better with that in our marriage. But why it isn't
reciprocated or why it's harder for other people to like
get that. Yeah, it's because it's scary. It is scary
man to uh, to reveal yourself and too, to let
somebody know you know who you really are and what
you really feel and your deep dark secrets and and
(15:43):
and you're the things that you're not pleased about it.
I mean, it's it's really difficult to be that vulnerable.
I heard a psychologist put it this way. He said
that she said that when I reveal who I really am,
it's a dangerous thing because I'm telling you the deepest
parts of me um and if you don't accept those
deepest parts, I have nothing left. You have completely rejected
(16:04):
who I am. So people quite often will will will
hide those parts. You'll keep those parts for themselves because
they don't want to feel rejected. But if you're going
to experience great love, you also have to take great risks.
You also have to be willing to uh, to be
that open and to be that vulnerable and and unfortunately
a lot of people are are afraid of that, which
(16:26):
is why the divorce rate is so high. It's funny
because when we look at you know, arranged marriages like
which is what what I do. You know, we do
on the show sort of a new take on arranged marriages.
They have roughly a ninety five percent success rate arranged marriages,
and it's because they're not they're not romantic marriages. People
(16:47):
are getting together for a different reason. They're getting together
because number one, their families connect. Number two, they're building
legacies together. And what they're creating is a they're contributing
to the social stability of their community. And that's how
they look at it. They're not looking at it that
so that I love you, I love you, and we
just we just want to be together and see the
(17:08):
rainbows and the bunny rabbits and and you know, see
the clout of gold, and that's cool. But when you
have something that's much more firm, much more stable, to
build a relationship on the fact that we are actually
building something. Look, if I know that we have a
solid foundation. This is what my wife and we experienced
when we just determined and we we decided that look,
(17:30):
we're not going anywhere period. That's it. We know what
the pain of loss feels like, we know what the
pain of divorce feels like. We will we will never
experience that again. Once we've established that in our relationship,
we can argue because that has been established and irrespectable,
I respectable, what happens, We're not going anywhere. We will
(17:52):
be together unless something happens where it's like, you're just miserable, right,
because like you wouldn't want to stay in something that
you're just the since not picking, you know, not being
your partner and helping and growing. If person just like
throws it away, like you can't stay in that right, well,
well you know you look, here's the thing. Misery is
(18:16):
a part of marriage, sure, but not for like five years?
Could you be miserable? Like honestly, like if if I
ever get married again, if I'm miserable and like it is,
I'm in a five year, ten year misery, Like what
is the point I'd rather be alone? If I've tried
and I've done therapy and this person is still not
like doing their work, Like how is that healthy? Yeah?
(18:39):
I'm not the guy who to say stay in a
marriage under any give any search chance. I'm not going
to say that, but I am going to say, because
you know, for for all the couples that I've I've
talked to the last twenty some years. One one common
denominator that I've seen is that people do give up
too quickly. For sure. I've seen couples who have been
(19:01):
miserable for years have learned tools to cope and to
deal and to understand and to reveal. Look, I've seen
couples have been violent. I mean literally, I don't. I don't.
I don't advise the violence. I don't. I don't stand
for it all. But I've seen couples have been physically
violent towards one another, have come to an understanding of
(19:22):
why that was happening, have corrected their behavior, and have
accepted each other the corrected people that they that they become.
And the last time that I've checked, they have been
married down for twenty one years, happy, happy because they've
They've They've understood what the problem was. They isolated the problem.
(19:45):
They didn't they didn't attach the problem to the person,
but they took the problem, as I often say, and
they set it on the shelf and say, you know what,
that's the problem this year is attacking our marriage. How
do we attack that issue, not connect the issue to
the person, but so separate the issue from the person
and deal with the issue objectively. Two people have to
(20:06):
be willing to do that, and they have to be
willing to stay in this thing and work at it,
and they have to be vulnerable and realized, look, I
screw it up. And if you have a person who's
not willing to admit their error, that's a problem. And
that's when I see marriages decline. Yeah, I mean for sure.
I remember when I went into my therapist office. She
was like when I found out about you know, all
the affairs and stuff, my therapist is like, give it,
(20:28):
do not do anything for at least a year, yes,
And I'm like, what the did you decay? I think,
because like what now, like you're out of your mind,
Like how I can't even be in the same And
she's like, I need you to give it. Do not
make any drastic And I think you're right. I think
people do give up to you too easy. And I
(20:51):
think it's they're shiny objects over here, and there's a
shiny object over there, and it's it seems like a
quick fix, but there's not. But then the lead into
my point where she was I was saying, like, Okay,
then six years later, still misery still relapses. Okay, now
it's like, what do I want for my next fifty
you know, like I that's just not a life and
(21:12):
and neither for him to like you know, he's we
we weren't. Um, we were better off co parents and
that's the unfortunate truth. And you know, um yeah, and
again not something that I think we it's not like
you walk into that but knowing that marriage is really hard. Um.
But I'm curious, like, what do you say to the
(21:32):
people that they didn't cheat, they're not alcoholics, they don't
have um, there's really nothing wrong. They just kind of
feel stuck. Is it just going back to that same
like communication or is there something that can kind of
like jump started a little bit? Absolutely, and that this
is when this is when Kelseling comes in. You need
(21:53):
to look. I God, I've talked to so many people
who have been in that situation. I'm talking about people
been married for years. I'm tying ten, fifteen, twenty years,
and they felt stuck. And there's a way to become unstuck,
of course, you know, And yeah, we have started in
every individual, you know, because every situation is different. So
(22:14):
I can't give you just a carte blanche. You do
this magic thing improve you're unstuck it. Actually, you actually
have to one identify what that challenge is. What, Okay,
you know, why do I feel this way? And you know,
take the focus off your partner and put the focus
on you. Why do I feel? Like? Why do I
feel stuff? What if you don't know? Though, Like what
(22:35):
if you're like, I don't know? That's when a therapist
canna help you uncover that because a lot of times,
a lot of times, what you deal with in your
relationship has nothing to do with your relationship. It has
to do with some some craft that you've dealt with
in your history, has to do with some some stuff
you've dealt with in your past. I mean, I've I've
talked to numerous people who are who are carrying baggage
from their parents, carrying baggage from their old relationships, and
(22:58):
they're wondering, know, why is my marriage suffering? Where your
marriage is suffering because you never resolved those things from
your past and those things are weighing you down, and
they're weighing your spouse down. And when you have two
people who are dealing with some of the same kind
of challenges, you know, yeah, it's it's almost a sinking
ship that you're you're you're on so a lot of
(23:19):
times that that stuck feeling that thing that you know,
why is there a weight on us? Why is it
that our that that you know, we can't seem to
just be happy, we can't seem to just feel good.
I mean, what is that? I always said, I think
your your therapist was so right. Don't make any rast decisions.
The first thing you need to do individually is seek
(23:41):
some counseling and find out, first of all, is there
something about me that's causing me to be stuck not
only in my marriage, but in other areas of my
life as well, and that needs to be uncovered with
some serious, some serious interventions. Mhm, great, church rightious. Good.
(24:04):
What's been the biggest, um, the biggest lesson that you've
kind of or not said lesson, but um awakening I
guess that you've had to realize with marriage. Yeah, I guess, well,
there's so many, but I guess one thing that comes
to mind, uh, is that you know, there is no
(24:28):
perfect marriage. There is no that all my expectations have
to be altered and normalized, you know, and I think
that there's nothing that's that that's perfect, that that's going
to be exactly what I expected to be. But it's
probably better than you know, what what other people are
(24:52):
going through as well. I tell people this all the time,
you know, for all the people who complain about their relationships.
If you were to take everyone and sit them, stand
me in a circle and somehow take all your problems
and throw them in the middle, and if everyone could
stand around and look at those problems in the middle,
I will bet you you'd take yours back. Yes, Now,
everybody's going through their own bs. Everybody's going to their
(25:15):
own kind of crap man, and you know, you we can,
you know, monumentalize ours and say, oh my god, this
is the worst thing in the world. But yeah, it's
never as bad as you think it is. There's never
you know, the grass is never really grieving on the
other side. That's so true. And just to share a
quick little story, I went to get a new computer
(25:35):
and the guy that sold me the computer he was blind,
and I just, I don't know, I just kind of
felt this nudge to just have conversation with him, and
you know, so I started talking to him, asking where
he's from, and um, I could just see him kind
of uh loosen up a little bit and um start
smiling and it just warm my heart. And so then
I started asking him about you know, I said, if
(25:56):
it's if it's okay to ask, you know, how long
if was this? Were you born blinder? And he just
started telling a story and it was fascinating. And then
he goes, and you know what, and he said, exactly
what you just said. He goes, if if we all
sat in a circle, we put all of our in
the middle of the room. He goes, I will take
my blindness over any of the other stuff that people
put in the middle. And I was just like it
(26:17):
was just like it almost like made it started interior. Wow,
that's so true. Like we all have our stuff, and
it's just how we find the gratitude in and how
we grow from it, how we learn from it, and
how we are grateful, like, Okay, it's not really that bad.
It's not And if we could just tell ourselves that,
I mean, it's you know, my wife always used this
illustrations that the building always looks until intimidating. It always
(26:39):
looks large when you're standing right at the front entrance,
you know, you look up its Oh my god, that
is a looming building. That is the biggest thing. But
when you step back, the further you go back from it,
you notice, wait a minute, you know, it tends to
come into focus. I think most of the time we
have to step away from our situations so we can
sit back and look at it objective and say, okay, fine,
how bad is this actually? M hm? You know, how
(27:01):
how bad was this argument? Did my didn't you know?
Did my husband hit me? Did my wife? No, it
wasn't any of that. Okay, fine, you know, are they?
Are they a bad person? I asked to I asked
a couple of this once, um on on on on
the show Married at First Sight, and I asked her.
I said she was complaining about a relationships. I said,
if you were to give you a relationship a grade
from A to F, what would it be? And she said, well,
(27:25):
probably a B minus. I said, oh my gosh, you
realize how people have been married for fifty years when
A see and if I got to be minus in school,
I'd be celebrating. So that sounds pretty damn good. Be minus. Hey,
we're having a party. Yeah, Oh my gosh. It's perspective.
It's all perspective. Do you like doing merrit at first sight?
(27:48):
Because I mean it's it's so fun. I I really do.
It's you know, and probably for a different reason. Uh,
it's not. It's not the TV. TV is great, you know,
but it's not just that when you when you have
I think right now we have about sixteen successful individuals,
you know, we have like eight babies. I mean that
(28:09):
is the kind of stuff that just were like making families. Man,
and Jamie Otis was on Married at First Sight, right, Yeah,
we're friends on Instagram. She's a sweetheart and I and
I'm just like, wow, that's so crazy that that actually works,
you know. And you're that's a lot better than the
Bachelor Bachelor, right, So yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna brochade,
(28:31):
but you're absolutely right, we're knocking them out the water.
But it's great. And then do you have how many kids?
Do you have? Three? Have three? So because you know,
you're so aware and I've shoot, I've done a lot
of childhood work and realizing how what how that has
brought into my adult life and I've been so mindful
(28:53):
of like, Okay, what what is going to be my
part that I play in my children's life now with um,
their traumas that I'm gonna I got, I'm gonna have
to probably bring something that I don't know if it's
not going to be the divorce or whatever, but is
there something that are you mindful of ways that you
communicate with your kids so that, um, they're not going
to be sitting in therapy. It's just talking about y'all. Yes,
(29:19):
they might still be sitting in therapy. But god, you know,
it's kind of funny because you know, I have I
have a you know, two millennials and and one who
is just outside outside that that are or somewhere, and
I don't know they are, but but it's a whole
different way of thinking. I I don't understand them anymore.
(29:44):
But yeah, but you know, but yeah, you're absolutely right.
I tried to pour as much openness and honesty and
kindness and understand again them so that they they can
you know, have some kind of balance and success. As
a matter of fact, it's funny because I guess all
three of them come to me when they're having issues
(30:05):
and challenges and we sit down and they do talk
about their their issues. You know, Dad, what do you
think about this? How do you pass rewarding you know,
so so like open communication, keep the keep the open.
And then for for those of us that are in
the dating world, what do what do you recommend for?
(30:26):
For that? I gotta I gotta hear it. Girl? Do
you do? You? Do you? Okay? You marry you? You're
you're singing? Do you have a checklist? I have boxes? Okay,
you have boxes to be checked, Yes, the check but okay,
but you know it's like the list is like this,
and then I have like they're like boxes. That's how
I visually. Oh man, I guess I've never really um uh, well,
(30:51):
they don't go any and I'm not gonna won't go
through the list. Okay, fine, I don't know. Let's say
like between five to ten, so too many five thinking boxes?
I would say, what's the right answers? The right answer
I want to be I would say that if you know,
(31:12):
and this is not just for you, but anyone who
has checklists or boxes or any of that, um, I
would say destroy them. No, what I would say, destroy
your boxes, destroy your Let me tell you something first
of all, and you're you're okay because you you you've
(31:33):
been married before. Yes, and you've gone through something. I
would bet you that some of your boxes are based
on what you've gone through. I'm gone, I'm with you.
I get that. But here's the thing you create. You've
created boxes. And again it's not just you, but most
people create boxes based on what they've seen, based on
(31:55):
what they've experienced and said, you know what, I don't
want that. And here's the problem. You may meet someone
who might remind you of something from your past, and
immediately you'll dismiss them because they remind you from something
of their past, of your past. But you know, I
learned this when I actually sat with the therapist after
my first marriage, and the therapist told me this. She said, cal,
(32:20):
you're gonna meet people who remind you of what you
went through. What I need you to do is to
ignore that, okay, because here's the thing. There are some
things that are peculiar to limit There are some things
that are peculiar to all men. And what you're doing
now is you're just just taking up making a blanket
(32:40):
statement about all people. Because because you have too many girlfriends,
too many female friends, or you have you know, you
don't listen. You kind of talk when I'm talking or
you or you have all these things that come from
your past. You're constantly dismissing people. These are probably things
that are fixable. They may not been fixable with your ex,
but they're stable with you. They might be fixable with
(33:01):
this next person. So tell people often is that if
you have a checklist, forget it. When I did, I
did a couple of years of law school before I
twit and hated it. But when I was in law school,
the first day I professor told us, he said, some
of you have taken political science. Raise your hand. Some
of you have parents who attorney is. Raise your hand.
They all did. Some of you may have worked in
law firms. Raiser and they are Some of others did.
(33:23):
He said, So some of you might think you know
some things about the law right and some raise your hand.
He said, you know nothing. Forget everything you've learned, because
what you're going to learn he is completely different. This
is nothing like you've ever experienced. And I think that
every marriage has that element. The next marriage is nothing
like the last one. It's this marriage that I have now,
Oh my god, like it's nothing like my ex, my
(33:46):
last man. And so I had to have a completely
open mind. For single people out there, you have to
have a completely open mind. You honestly have to start
with a blank slate and give everybody a clear new
chance of impressing you without any expectations. I love that
and I just realized this. I was like, Oh, you
guys must have co parented done with the older kids. Yes, yes,
(34:09):
yes we're yes, we're blended fan. So was that difficult?
And what's the best advice for you know, my my
co parenting situation, because it can, it has its ups
and downs. It's co parenting ain't for punks either. Let
me tell you that too. Yeah, call me, are we
gonna We're gonna have a conversation. Co Parenting is tough.
(34:32):
But here's the thing, and this is whether you're co
parenting or parenting, or whether you're both of the biological parents.
I tell people, first of all, never, this is going
to be a little tough. Never put your children above
your spouse. Never put your children. Never put your children
about the ex spouse or the No, I love your
(34:53):
current spouse. Why what I think that's that's always I
was going to stop and let the marinate per sect. No,
I need to what do you like my kids are
my Your kids are your world, absolutely and they should
be right now because you're a single parent. Well, once
you get married. This is what children, This is what
(35:14):
I found the children need. I love how you let
that man for a minute. Uh, this is what children need.
Children need first of all, parents who are happy with
each other. Mhm. Children need parents who are communicating, who
are vulnerable, who argue and make up, and so they
(35:40):
can see that entire progression of having a conflict and
then knowing how to get out of that conflict and
then seeing you happy again. I think that's one of
the healthiest things for children. Things for children is to
see for them to see that their parents are normal,
that they're happy, and that they were in love, and
that they they are a unified front. And I think
that what I've seen quite often is it when when
when I see either biological or co parenting situations where
(36:04):
people have put their children above their parents, the children
have to choose between whether or not they're going to
be Uh where where where? Yeah? Where parents have put
their children above Yeah. Well you know what I'm saying.
Children to choose between almost like, well, mom is putting
(36:25):
me again over dad, So then where do I fit
in this thing? Because if if mom is looking at
me as more important than Dad, then I must be
more important to dad, and then I'm going to treat
Dad accordingly. Or if Dad is putting mom thinks Paul,
mom is more important than me, then I must be
(36:47):
more important than mom. And I've seen this. I've seen
it where I've seen fathers place a higher estimation on
their children than they do their wives. And the children start,
the children start treating their mothers like the father does.
M hm. You know, children don't want to be above
their parents. Children don't want they don't want to be
(37:10):
valued higher than their parents. They want their parents to
be like little gods. They want their parents to be
higher than them. That gives them security, It gives them
that kind of feeling that you know, I have someone
who can protect me. And if both parents are realizing that, hey,
we are the leaders of this room. We are the
ones who are taking care of you, and we're always
(37:31):
a united front and irrespectable. What you bring to the table,
we're gonna be in sync on it, and we're going
to be the ones who you will never be able
to separate us. We'll go through our crap, will argue,
will be okay, but we're going to be your parents.
We're going to be in charge. We're the ones who
are superior. And I hate to say that that way,
but that's the way it is. Children want that. No,
(37:52):
it makes that makes sense. I've always you know, I've
always heard that in like your marriage and then like
the biological parents. You know, obviously it's like you know,
I've always I believe it's God and then your spouse
and then your kids. But it's interesting going into a
new marriage with kids where it's a stepparent. That's where
I think it could get a little bit tricky. It's like,
now these are my kids, but like putting him first.
(38:15):
So that's where it would be more of a challenge,
I feel like. And the first thing you have to
do is eliminate step you know. I I came into
my daughter's life when she was seven and she's twenty
one now, and I have she I have never presented
(38:36):
myself as her stepdad. I'm never calling myself for a stepdad,
and she has never seen me as her stepdad. I'm
her dad as far as she's concerned. Now that she
she has a biological father, she calls him also, you know,
she refers to him as daddy, But I am her
biological Well, I tell her, I I joke around and
tell her I'm a biological dad. That's me. But it's okay.
(39:00):
I'm sure her dad doesn't listen to this, but I
am her dad. And even with her, she understands that
I can't get between you and mom. I mean, I've
heard the boys say that I never here to say, Okay,
I know that whatever I say to you, you're gonna tell,
You're gonna tell, you know, mom whatever, whatever, because and
they realized, you know that, hey, it's us against them always,
(39:24):
even even with the biological children. But you need to
parents who are going to be who are going to
be honest and open with these children. I mean, I
would never treat my my my daughter, my non biological
daughter any lesson I treat the boys. I just wouldn't
for sure. I mean, I love her like she's like
I was there in the in the in the delivery
bo and in your book. Uh, what can readers expect
(39:49):
when they read Mary Jane for Punks? They can expect
a very straightforward, hard hitting realistically of marriage. It's not
it's not the kind of book that glosses over the
tough issues. Um, we were in the book. We're talking
about boundaries. I'll give it. I'll give a little example, Okay, Um,
(40:14):
one story, this is a little is gonna be I'm
giving a little a little a little depth there is
might be a little deep. But I talked about we
don't get deep at all on this podcast, so it's fine,
don't worry about it. I talked about one story where
the wife and the bride and groom they married and
they were a biracial couple, interracial couple. Well he was okay,
(40:35):
he was black and she was white, whatever you call that.
So they got married. I don't know what they they
got married, but they got married against their parents wishes, um,
and they were Um. They were married, and they were
enjoying life and everything. They felt that love could conquer
(40:55):
all that all we need is love, and so they
married each other, they had a baby. They were just
enjoying life until one day he came home. You know,
he's black and she's white. He came home and he
was pretty upset about something that happened at work, and
he felt as though he was he was discriminated against
Well she um. She responded and said, well you sure.
(41:17):
He said, well, yeah, I'm sure. She said, well, what
do you mean, maybe it was something else? Maybe said no,
I know, because others got this and I didn't get this.
And so he wanted her to understand that, and she
she had was a counterpoint, which was fine. And then
in the middle of their arguing, he said, well, you
don't understand because your privilege, you never had to deal
(41:38):
with this, and she she said, well why, well, why
are you acting like an N word? Oh? Yeah, that's
the beginning of the chapter. Oh, oh, my gosh. And
then she called me, this is an actual situation. I
changed all the names protectically, but this is an actual story.
And so I got a phone call saying, hey, eight,
(42:00):
can you come help us. Our marriage is about the
fall apart because he walked out, and and so then
the rest of that chapter I show how we were
able to establish boundaries and how we were able to
resolve those issues. And every chapter starts with a story
about a couple, whether it's infidelity, whether it's bad communication,
(42:21):
whether it's I don't know, co parenting, or what have you.
Each chapter starts with a real life story or loosely
based on a real life situation because I can't I
can't tell every about business, but it's based on a
real life situation. And then throughout that chapter I show
you how we resolve those issues. Wow. Well, I just
cannot thank you enough for coming on the show. I
(42:42):
can't wait to read the book. And um, where can
our listeners find you? You can find me on Instagram.
I am Calvin Robertson. Uh. You can buy the book
wherever books are sold. And let me just say that
book is for everyone, because I think when I was
writing it, I intentionally wrote it for married people, single
people who are thinking about getting married, people who are divorced.
(43:03):
Whatever stage you're in, you're going to find something in
this book. Even if you want to know how to
how to remove yourself from certain people. Uh, and still
remains silk everyone. I just want to say, wherever you
are in your in the spectrum of relationships, the book
will we'll have something for you. That's awesome. Well, thank
(43:23):
you so much for coming on the show. This is
the true joy. So thank you. It was such a pleasure.
Thank you guys. You did great. Thank you so much.
Thank you. You're so sweet. I love your energy. Thank you.
This is you guys are awesome. Thank you you guys.
Right bye? Oh god, I loved him going to buy
(43:57):
the book, being up on the book. Yes, uh no,
that was good because that's gotta be tough. I mean,
you didn't marry so young that you have to be
totally different than the girl that you married, that that
he you know that he married. Yeah, I mean that's
such a good point, like you realize that. But like
him saying it, I was like, oh, yeah, like I
know I've changed as I'm twenty, but like it's such
(44:18):
a good point. How much you change in those he changes,
I change, and how do you reconnect like new people essentially,
which is crazy. I don't know, it's a lot, but yeah,
would it be too much for you to read the
book together? Hey? You know what I'm with, cal I think,
you know, the personal therapy on our own, on our own,
(44:42):
and then some couples therapy. I think it is probably
are we doing individual therapy? I gotta call Okay, I'm
proud of you. That's like we've done it before. To
just spen a long time. But he brought up a
really really great point. Sometimes it's not about the other person.
It's about yourself, which I you know, I've acknowledged about myself. Yeah.
(45:03):
It's so hard though, but when you do, it's good.
You start to not point the finger and shoot, it's
time for me to look in the mirror. That's not
fun times. Um A well fun show. And oh we're
going to be in Vegas this weekend. I'm so excited
and you're coming with me girlfriends, so uh, let's let's
(45:25):
take some wine for this one. Yes, yeah, okay, it'll
be fine. I can't wait. Fine,
Host
Jana Kramer
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