Connecting Love & Sex

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Swine Down with Jane Kramer. Did I'm Heart Radio podcast?

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Happy Monday? Guys? Oh?

Speaker 3 (00:09):
Nothing, I was every time I think on Monday, what happens.
I don't know. You probably never watched SpongeBob, but when
my brother was little, SpongeBob was like huge and SpongeBob
like any day of the week, but especially Mondays. He
would wake up and say, it's Monday. I'd love Mondays
and like scream it. So that's just what I think
about when you say happy Monday.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well, no, I'm never going to say that because I
got norphan back. Sorry, honey, You've had a good day.
You went golfing, great day, great day.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
No matter what happens the rest of the day, my day
is great.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm just gonna let you just take it. Thanks, You're welcome, beb. No,
I'm excited for today's episode. It's going to be fun.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
Was it that I say neither of you is feeling
well because he's coughing and you're a little raspy today.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thanks dad?

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, you know what endless cold.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
It's I started with the cold and then I passed
it to Jason, and then Jace passed it to Jolie
and Jolie passed it to Dad and then I was good,
and then all of a sudden, I woke up a
couple of days ago sniffling again. I'm like, you gotta
be kidding me, and Mike goes, this is karma because
you were mean to me when I had Michaels.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Because you're minimizing my cold. You're fine, You're fine. Oh yeah, yeah,
hear what happens. And I still have like cough.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, so sorry, sorry, So it's just never ending niffles
out there.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
So, yeah, this is a big day because what we're
going to talk about is something pretty deep. Dun dun no.
So just to jump into it, So all of you
listeners who have heard Jane and I talked through our
story and maybe read about our history our story, there's

(01:58):
been skepticism throughout things that were printed or written or
talked about about me during our time of separation, when
everything was happening almost three years ago, that I sought
treatment for sex addiction at an impatient treatment facility.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Three years, it's coming on.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Three years, maybe three years this summer. So I'm at
a place now, Jana and I are, and I are
at a place to validate that those I guess rumors
are skepticism around that that, yes, I did. Janet kind
of gave me an ultimatum when everything came out and
she discovered everything, and she looked at me and said,

(02:42):
you know, you need to go somewhere basically, like you
need to figure out what's going on and what this
is or I'm gone, period. And so I talked to
our then couple's therapists and told me about a in
patient treatment facility that was not too far from Nashville,

(03:05):
just about half a day's drive. And so I drove
down there and checked myself in and was in for
sixty days. And that's something. Ever since then, I've been
in the twelve step program of sex addiction. It's weird

(03:27):
to say right now, I will say that it's kind
of been nice to hide behind that curtain of skepticism.
You know, all of my closest obviously all my family
and friends knew. But yeah, so ever since then, I've

(03:49):
been a part of that program, in the twelve step program,
it hasn't been perfect. Those of you who are in
an addiction program themselves or are close with someone who
is an addict in some way, shape or form, I'm
sure understands the pain and shame and that goes along
for both parties, for all parties in a situation with addiction.

(04:12):
And you know, for me, I realized a lot of
things throughout my life that sex and sexual acting out
was my addictive behavior and that's where I went to
hide my feelings, to run away from reality, and.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
That was my drug.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
So yeah, it it manifests in different ways for different people.
And it's something that I'm approaching, approaching a year's sobriety
next week, where now I finally thought it felt like
I was at a place to discuss it and own it.

(05:01):
Nothing's guaranteed, even though my years next week, I live
one day at a time, you know. But yeah, So
my whole reason for bringing this up is just to
Jane and I have realized we've been able to help
people a lot through our story through this podcast, and

(05:22):
we just wanted to be even more authentic, vulnerable and
open to you guys, and to offer another layer of
our story to those out there who deal with addiction
in some way, shape or form. So just know that
we're here to listen and to talk about it. In

(05:45):
addition to everything else that we've been addressing on this
podcast over the last year. But yeah, I think that's
all I got to say about that for now. I mean,
we have I have questions. Yeah, is that okay? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Well, I first just want to say I'm proud of
you for speaking your truth. You didn't need to, and
you know, you came to me and said you think
you were ready, and I was just like, I you
don't ever have to say anything because you don't have
to say anything to anyone or but I think it's
very big of you that you want to use this
and help people. You know. That's where almost like the

(06:27):
silver lining is You're you're wanting to help people because
so many people live in shame, and you know that.
It's sad that part of this is you know, it's
supposed to be anonymous, but unfortunately it wasn't. And that's
where I think it has been unfortunate because so many
people in the program get to live anonymously, but because
there's been so much speculation, you know, it's.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
I mean, I can honestly say I don't I probably
wouldn't come out with it if there wasn't anything speculated
out there because I envy the guys I'm in program
with that. Their parents don't even know, their siblings don't know,
their closest friends don't know. It's just between them and
their spouse. And I'm like, I'm envious of that. I'm like, well,

(07:14):
what does that feel like? Because everyone that knows me
knows or at least has speculated.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
That's a good point, the anonymous element. Yeah, the way
that those people are going through it is kind of
how it's meant to be gone through.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, anonymity is part of the you know, the principles
of any twelve step program.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
And what had happened when I was on Dancing with
the Stars is I was on the cover of US
Weekly magazine and it's married to a sex addict.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
And.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
It was you know, is it? I don't want to
take it. It's hard for both sides. But at the
same time, it's like I never wanted that to come out. Yeah,
at the time that I want people to know that
you cheated, sure, you know, because I didn't want I
was just as embarrassed. But I didn't want people to
know that part because that's that's an addiction element, you know,

(08:11):
So to have something plastered like that. My first reaction
was I felt bad for you, Like I didn't want
that to be out there for you and then for
our kids and whoever else.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
So were you able to You're actually able to feel
that in that moment?

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah, even though because I still
didn't talk to you yet, you were still in treatment.
I wasn't answering your calls.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
But yeah, i'd just gotten out.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Oh you just gotten out? Okay, But yeah, so I
I do remember that feeling. But but yeah, so that's
the part that I can understand that you would relate
to wanting to be anonymous. But then at the same time,
I just you can do so much with this too,
especially with the platform that we're able to start with.
So yeah, Mark, do you want to ask questions?

Speaker 4 (09:00):
I mean a lot of these questions in none of
my business, So just tell me if it's done right.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
No, But I think people have a people, don't you know.
I've I didn't know what it was in the beginning either,
and I've learned so much and about sex addiction through
this process, but you know, and I've had to then, well,
how do I say, educate my mom, my family and
my friends about what it is? Because so many people
ask me the same questions, and I'm sure, you know,

(09:23):
ask him the same question. So I'm sure it'll be
those same questions. But I think it's a you know,
an addiction that isn't talked about, and it's just kind
of on the forefront of people talking about it because
it's one of those addictions where you can't I mean,
you can stop having alcohol, you can't, right, It's.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
The one addiction that you still use essentially in your life.
So it's like it's like an alcoholic telling an alcoholic, Hey,
you're an alcoholic, can't really drink alcohol, but you can
still have it sometimes actually, So it's like, but you
can have alcohol in a healthy way. What the hell
does that look like? I want your whole life drinking
in an unhealthy way. What does drinking a healthy way

(10:04):
look like? So it's the same thing for sex. It's like, hey,
this is like for me, I never, like I've said
on here before, sex and love never correlated for me
and for my brain. So you know, it's you've had
sex due to unhealthy feelings your whole life. Now you
hear you need to do it in a healthy way.
I'm like, what, what does that look like what that

(10:25):
doesn't make sense.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
Was it the therapy that helped you put together the
sex and love problem or did you always know that
that was a disconnect for you?

Speaker 3 (10:33):
No, it was therapy. Yeah, but yeah, I made up
that when I was with the when I found the one,
the person I was supposed to be with, then all
those issues that I would have would go away. I'll
just basically excuse it and be like, oh, I cheated

(10:54):
because I'm not meant to be with her mm hmm.
Or I don't feel like having sex with my significant other.
I mean that just that must mean that I'm not
supposed to be with her, I don't really like her.
It's not necessarily the case.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
So sex addiction is an interesting thing because I think
it also can be used as an excuse yep, And
I feel like that's what people are going to ask
us about it, not yeah, when you hear about I
don't know, Harvey Weinetein, Kevin Spacey, these guys who are
accused of these things, Oh, they're going away for sex
additional treatment and then everything's going to be fine anything
Really is that really the issue? Or are they just

(11:30):
kind of right? So I feel like I feel like
it's an excuse by some people. It's a legitimate thing
for some people. And is that an issue with you?
Because are there because I gotta believe there's a lot
of people that you think he's just a jerk and
using this as an excuse, or he's just.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
A football player, which is what a lot of people say.
You know, he's just an athlete.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Right, that's actually probably the best question you can lead
off with because that is where a big portion of
the initial shame comes from. Because like, for me, I
believe I'm a good person and so many other aspects
of my life I've been a good person except for

(12:10):
you know relation, you know relation in relationships, and so
dealing with trying to come to terms with admitting step one,
admitting your powerless over addictive behavior. Admitting that is like
the hardest part because you're torn. You're like, well, I

(12:31):
don't think I'm a sex addict. Like what but I
if I'm not an addict, then does that mean I'm
just a piece of shit? So it's like it's this
shame game of just like what am I? It's like
each either direction you go, there's shame. I'm either a
sex addict, or I'm a piece of crap and I'm
an ahole. You said, I'm just a jerk. I treat

(12:51):
women bad, I do bad things. So that is a
big issue where people just say I even watched a
stand a comedian that I that I like, and he
had a bit where he talked about sex addiction and
quick and he talked about, you know, that's just a
man's excuse for what he did or for cheating or whatever.

(13:13):
For some people, maybe sure, but you know, and people
still have that speculation. Even when I talk to some
of Jana's family, they're like, you know, will support Janna
whatever she decides, but I don't believe that this is
a real thing. I was like, that's fine, you don't
have to.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
It's also the older generation too, you know.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Oh for sure, for sure, it's definitely because that especially
when it comes to sex addiction, I feel like alcohol
or drugs, well that's like, you know, well that's that's
a whole nother ballgame. Where yeah, people that are in
AA or NA say they're going to meetings or the

(13:57):
sober people are like, they get they get empathy, they
get sympathy, like oh, good job, good for you. You say
you're in sex addiction. People like, oh shame, whoa what's that?

Speaker 4 (14:05):
But that's also part of the evolution, right because I
feel like thirty forty years ago, if you said you're alcoholic,
people are like what, oh, no question.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
That's how it started.

Speaker 4 (14:13):
It's all we're learning empathy. As I says it, we're
fifteen twenty. The essay program is we're about fifteen years
behind in society. So it's going to take another ten
to fifteen years for people to understand it and respect
it as an addict and addiction. But again, I get
back to your point. You know, the whole thing of

(14:35):
an excuse first, an actual chemical issue in your brain.
You know, if anyone on the outside would go to
a could go to an open meeting and see people
in there. It's not just a bunch of people that
are married. There's people in there for age ranges from eighteen.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
To eighty female and male.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Female and male, that are married, that have never been married,
that have been married and are divorced or whatever, and straight, gay,
straight like you name it. So it's not just for
people that have spouses and it's a way to keep
their marriage together. That's not it at all.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
So you know, it's.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Basically identifying the bad habits of what you've done and
then realizing that's right.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
And there's people that were able to see these behaviors
in themselves and get into the twelve step program or
have a therapist, you know, pursue them in that direction.
I mean, for me, I honestly can say that I
probably never would have acknowledged a problem and I would
have kept the same pattern of behaviors if it wasn't

(15:48):
for Jana.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Because I'm just curious, like when you say that, because
you justify, like you were able to justify in your
brain during that six cycle.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, oh, I was just an addictive behavior where I
was just everything. I just justified or validated or rationalized
every decision I made.

Speaker 4 (16:04):
I'm sure That's the other thing people throw at you
is if you wouldn't have gotten caught, you never would
have stopped doing this. You never would have saw it
the treatment. But it's similar to other addictions. If you
wouldn't have driven into that tree, you wouldn't have gone
into AA. You know, like it seems like rock bottom has.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
To be achieved for sure, and you know, even when
you think you're at bottom, you hit another bottom, you know,
and that's you know, with JANEA and I had to
go through kind of throughout our journey over the last
few years.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Well, I think one of the questions that might come
up is they'll say, Okay, well you got out of
program three years ago, but why are you only one
year sober?

Speaker 3 (16:41):
Because at that the point I just made it's it's
just because I got out, you're still trying to figure
out I spent what was I when I went in.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Thirty Yeah, no nine, So I spent.

Speaker 3 (16:53):
You know, obviously not twenty nine whole years, but essentially
twenty nine years thinking or living a day different way
and then all of a sudden you shock your system
and say, no, you're actually supposed to think of things
this way. And so for people just to cold not
cold turkey, but flip the switch just you know immediately,

(17:13):
that's few and far between. So and there's some people
that do, but it's it's you know, it's progress not perfection,
which anyone in addictive program knows that's a big mantra.
So it's you know, I had my stumbles along the way.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
So just to get the timeline down the when you
went away, that was.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
That was six months old.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
That was June of sixteen.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
Yeah, okay, so that's what we're coming up on.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Three years. Wow, that was July twenty sixteen, sorry end
of July.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, but yes, and three years of him being in
treatment but.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
In the essay program.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
But he is now one year sober.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Got it.

Speaker 4 (17:50):
So there've been relapses along the way, yes, and.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
You've had to no no yet relapses, yes, but no
sex outside the marriage, like no, I'm not minimized cheating
because we have other things in our jana andized discussion
our boundaries as cheating, but no sex outside of the marriage.
Just so people, I just want you want to be
clear that there there wasn't any other affairs since that moment.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
I just want people know what a relapse is in
this scenario, right, and it's different for different people.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Okay, So yeah, people, some people have it's a circle plan,
circle plan.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
So in something he should not have done that was
in a circle that was very red like bad and
could have been awful, and that was a you know,
massive relapse. Yes, it wasn't physical out of the marriage,
but it was something where the actions the action was

(18:45):
basically okay, So that was something.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
Classic addictive behavior and not being able to articulate my
feelings and just internally blowing the f up and just
basically hit the ft button.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
And yeah, we're I'm just basically happy that someone didn't
show up.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah, basically, so.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah I showed up at the whole town instead. Oh dear, Yeah,
if we really want to know.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
Yeah, we've been through some sh so that's why even
I've been in the program coming on three years on
a year.

Speaker 4 (19:23):
Sob so if I hear let me say, if I
can put it this way, so basically, if you put
it in a different addiction, he went to the bar
and there was a glass in front of him, and
luckily you showed up to stop him from drinking from
the glass.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
Yes, okay, I think I understand pretty much. Yeah, so yeah,
I mean again, we just want to be able to
help people with this. And I'm finally to a place
where I don't have it an overwhelming amount of shame,

(20:02):
where I'm able to acknowledge who I am. This is
part of me, and I'm comfortable with owning the fact
that I'm a sex addict. And it's still hard to
say that out loud, but knowing that I can possibly
help other people, you know, maybe we can save some

(20:24):
more relationships.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
Speaking generally, what are some signs of sex addiction? It
doesn't have to be yours.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
Right, So a big part of the addiction in general is,
you know, ritualization. You plan something you're used to when
you get home, you watch porn, or you act out,
or you sleep with somebody, or you start basing your

(20:52):
whole day around acting out, getting the drink, per se.
If you don't get it, you get frustrated, It ruins
your It just ruins your day if you can't have.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
It, or if maybe like your wife comes home and
you couldn't masturbate or something, or you couldn't do look
at your like and you get upset about that, right,
that something breaks that that action for you.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, so those are a few things, just kind of
surface level that if you if you schedule your day
around whatever the behavior is, if you something gets in
the way of it and just ruins your day and
you know, you ritualize it, so you plan your day
and it's like that's just part of your day. You
can't get through the day unless you do this, whatever

(21:36):
the the act is. So, yeah, there's a lot more
that we can go into detail about which we'll get
a c SAT on here Certified Sex Addiction Therapist on
here to talk more about some of that. But those
are the kind of surface level things for people to
think about, like, man, maybe I am basing my day
around this, and maybe when I leave work, the first

(21:59):
thing I think about is watching porn, or the first
thing I think about is getting on tender and texting
somebody or whatever it is. You know, if that's like
the first thing you think about, you know. But that's
where it's hard too, is for a long time in
my life, I just rationalized it, and I'm like, I'm
a single guy and I'm in the NFL, and I'm

(22:20):
just I'm just young and like that whole thing right
that I said in college, and then I said it
when I was in my twenties, and then you know,
it's just you just keep rationalizing somehow in your brain.

Speaker 4 (22:30):
There is the athletic lifestyle. Because some people would say,
like we said before, athletes are like this, Athletes are players,
Athletes just have no respect for women. But would you
also say that You wouldn't say that, of course, but
you might say that the athletic lifestyle breeds.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
It's glorified, glorifies this behavior. Yes, yeah, it's definitely. I Mean,
the thing is, there's plenty of guys that are outside
the realm of the stereotype, plenty of guys that are
unbelievable family men, unbelievable husbands, unbelievab fathers, like no issues
or anything. But that lifestyle is definitely glorified. You know,

(23:10):
my my rookie year in Jacksonville, I was the only
rookie in the tight end room and all the other
guys were like married too, like I had families and stuff,
and they wanted me, like to tell jokes in the
meeting room. I was like, I'm not a joke teller.
But then they're like, all right, we'll tell us like
a story, like what'd you do this weekend? Because I
was on practice squad, so like when they had away games,

(23:31):
I'll just go out and like party and stuff. So
instead like they I'll come in, They're like, all right,
tell us a story from this weekend, like what you do,
And that's what they wanted to hear, you know. So
it's like it's it is, it's glorified. Just feeds it,
you know. So it definitely doesn't help when that stuff
is all around you, you know, not blaming it, but

(23:55):
my but my addiction looking back and thinking back on
my timeline and my life actions. It accelerated and flourished
when I was in the NFL.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Probably too, because like you had money and you had you.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Know, oh yeah that's money, notoriety, you know, all single
and yeah, yeah, I feel like you're on top of
the world. Everyone knows you.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
And a lot of those guys that they heard you
talking on this podcast today, they'd be like, what a wuss?
What happened to this guy? Cuckolded? Whatever you want to say, right,
they'd be like, what happened to him?

Speaker 5 (24:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Maybe some, but I think guys are maybe realizing there's
more to life than football.

Speaker 4 (24:36):
Like guys do grow up at some point.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
They do, they do. And I really feel like with
all like the negative publicity like football is getting in
the last few years, with the health and everything, I
think guys are starting to realize that more, which is
good for sure for young men. But yeah, I'm sure
there's some guys that if they heard me say this,
or like, come on, dude, no, like you're just having
a good time, right, you know. I look back, and

(24:59):
I was. I was a full blown addict, There's no
question about it.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
I think people sometimes I have that hard time differentiating
a cheater versus an addict. So I think that's where
it's like, you know, people said, like, well, my husband's
cheated on me twice, does that make them a sex addict?
And so I think that's like one of the hardest
lines to cross because I mean, what's how do you

(25:23):
really differentiate the two when you know a husband has
cheated twice or once.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
That's that's going to be another great question for people
to ask. And that's a great one to ask, honey.
You know that's the thing too, where you know you
don't want people to someone makes a mistake and all
of a sudden they're like, you're an addictor are you
this you need to do? But if it, if it's
happened a couple of times, go talk to a therapist,

(25:51):
find out find out what, like where this stuff comes from.
Why did you decide to cheat? Is it just because?
And sometimes it is sometimes you're just an a whole.
There are those.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
People, but it usually steps from something in the childhood.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, it could, you know, it could very well be
just your an a whole.

Speaker 4 (26:14):
But because there was also a narcissistic personality disorder, which
we have an email about too. But sure like those
people tend to only think of themselves, no empathy for
the other people in their lives, and so that wouldn't
necessarily be sex addiction, but it is a disorder of
some sort, I hope.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Anyway, Yeah, is.

Speaker 4 (26:29):
It true that people that just are somewhere just a
holes or is it all some sort of distinct.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
So I think so, I think some people were just
I mean, yeah, I feel like it has to come
from somewhere. Everything has to come from somewhere, right, right,
But some people just are Some people just don't care
about other people, as we see in the world in
the news every day. Yeah, I mean right.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
There's one thing too, I want to debute. Is it
the right debuke like debunk debunk, debunk or rebuke to
rebuke not one of the things I want to do.
Bunk is or rebuke whatever is. People will say, because
I'm working on something right now around sex addiction with

(27:08):
a girlfriend of mine, and the guy in the meeting said, wait,
so does that mean that your husband just wants to
have sex with you? All the time, Like that's that's
something that also comes up to when when you say
sex addiction, because again people don't really understand, and I'm like, no.

Speaker 4 (27:22):
It's could that be a type of sex addiction.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
I'll let my answer that since he knows more.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
I know.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
There's sexual intimacy, which or sexual inerexia, which.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Is which is like what I have, which is yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
Where you don't want to sleep with your wife, and
so it's it's not not that you don't want to
sleep with your wife, but it's.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
It's it's just there's something that goes on, Like for
for me, it's it was just a level of intimacy,
and again, intimacy and love and sex not correlating. So
for me, it was like when I felt love and intimacy,
I was avoidant. I was like sexually inerrectic, like I
didn't want it because it just with me with her,
because I was intimate and I loved her. So I
was like, why do I Why would I've never had

(28:02):
sex with somebody that I love and ammencement with? Why
would I do that? Now? You know?

Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, so is there something that just like have a
lot or no?

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Yeah? Uh yeah, sure, I mean there's there's plenty of
guys that are in program that they aren't avoidance or
interrexic when it comes to sexually and having sex with
their partners.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
I'm aware of a married couple. I don't wor say how,
but he needs it every day, go day. And so
she just was like, Okay, that's just how he is,
and that's fine, But that seems like a form of
a form of addiction, some sort of an interesting disorder
where it have to happen every day or he gets
really upset.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, I mean, it's one that would be interesting because
it's like, well, he's not stepping out of his wife, right,
you know, and he's not doing other behaviors that you know,
maybe outside the boundaries of their relationship. So I mean,
I can't really say that's an addiction. Maybe it's just
something that he just you know, there is a reason
behind it, something mentally that he makes it in his

(29:00):
head that he needs it, right, he doesn't really actually right,
he's not going to die if he doesn't have it,
And that's a whole that's that is a kind of
an addictive mindset, like if I don't have this, I'm
going to die, Like you over. You're exaggerating. You're like, no,
I can't. My day is ruined, everything sucks, Like no,
just you just blow up. So you know, it's maybe
it's some addictive pattern in his in his brain. But

(29:23):
I mean he's not breaking any boundaries. It's not really nice.
They're a bad thing, right.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
If she's okay with it, then that's just them.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Do you guys have any questions around any of this though?
Email us at Jane Kramer iHeartMedia dot com and hopefully
we'll be able to get someone on here that can
help answer questions. If you or your spouse or anyone
you know needs any advice or tips from a specialized
c SAT and if you have just any questions or

(29:49):
anything around it.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
One more question mark the people you were in group with? Yeah,
would you say that all or most are victims of abuse?

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Interesting question?

Speaker 3 (30:01):
A lot? Yeah. And so I went to like my
when I was in treatment with all the different there's
a bunch of guys I was in treatment with and
like my individual therapists per se, you're like broken off
into groups. And I after being there a couple of weeks,
I went met with my therapist there and I asked
her I was like, I feel a lot of guilt

(30:26):
and shame because like, I feel like my story is
not as bad as others that I hear, Like it
makes sense when somebody's sexually abused and you hear some
of these stories and I'm just like holy, like, oh
my god, and I'm like I would feel bad. I'm like,
I don't. What's like it took me a long time

(30:48):
to get through because I'm like, oh, even sounds like,
what's my excuse? Am I just a piece of dang? Like?
Am I am? I really just a bad person? I
wasn't abused, and that's thing, Like I had a great childhood,
but it's you know, for still reasons that happened. This
is just where my brain took me. This is how

(31:09):
it manifested. And so a lot of a lot of
people are victims of abuse, definitely, and but you don't
have to be and have this and that that's taken me.
That's been one of the biggest things that's taken me
a long time to accept that. Okay, I'm not just
a bad person, you know, but but it's hard when

(31:31):
you hear these stories. I'm like, do do I belong here?
You know? So it's yeah, it's you know, it's hard.
And but then all it takes is it takes one
person that speaks or shares and you're like, you feel
like you're speaking or sharing. You're like, that's my story.

(31:52):
And that's how you start to get close with certain
guys in program. And again, anyone in twelve step program
will understand that, Like you just start hearing people share
because you go to the same meetings at the same time,
at the same day each week, and you learn these
people and you start to get closer because you're like, man,
we have the same story. Let's go grab breakfast, let's
talk about this.

Speaker 6 (32:10):
You know, I have a question in any twelve step program,
wouldn't it be that no one's pain is more important
and I'm using quotes than someone else's pain. That I
hate hearing you say, like, am I just a piece
of beep? Because it's like, your pain is real. Whatever
you were trying to fill is just as real. It

(32:33):
may be slightly less tragic.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, I always say you can ever measure someone's pain?

Speaker 3 (32:37):
No, you can't, but it's and it's that's the thing.
No one measures each other's pain. You just measure your own.
That's what it is. You're like, because you put yourself
in their shoes, because people share so vulnerably in these
meetings that you're like, oh my gosh, if I went
through that, And then you start to minimize your story

(32:58):
and you're like, why am I so effed up? If
this is all I went through? But again, you don't
measure each other's pain, but you do it to yourself.

Speaker 7 (33:05):
They help you do that.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
Yeah, yeah, and that that's where you know, I'm amazed.
I am honestly amazed by people that have gotten sober
just by going to meetings, because I don't I can't
imagine not kiddings of were not having gone to an
impatient treatment facility only because you, I mean, you dig

(33:30):
deep into your into your you know, your skeletons deep.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
The one thing though, that they got to work on
those in patient treatments is the reality of when you
get out. Oh my, yeah, he got out of the
how many how many days of seventy days?

Speaker 3 (33:48):
No, it was sixty sixty days. I was in seventy
that I didn't see Jolie.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, and I was here in La doing dancing with
stars because I need didn't escape. But yeah, she was
she was young, but I remember, you know, I didn't
and I didn't answer. I think I only answered one
of his calls and treatment because I just didn't want
to talk to him. But I read every single letter

(34:14):
that he wrote me. He'd read a letter and I
would wait at three o'clock for the mailman to come.
I didn't want to talk to him, but I wanted
to read his letters.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
I wrote her letter every day.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
But I think they didn't properly prepare him for when
he got out because I was still realing.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Sure, I was still upset.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Because he comes out He's like, I'm basically healed, and
I'm like, well, I'm a single mom right now. I'm like,
this is you know. So I think that was well,
that was the one knock that I have on that no.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
I do too and me and guys that there's only
one guy really that I'm still stay in touch with
from from treatment, but that was our mine of his
big only knock too, was like we get out and
it's like they build you up when you're in there
because it there's just so much shame around all this.
There's so much I mean, it's crazy, and so they

(35:06):
build you up so like when you get into the world,
you feel like you belong and that you're you're a person,
you can do this, but then you come to an
angry spouse who just want to beat you down understandably
so rightfully so, and then we come out like you
can't talk to me like that, I have boundaries, and
they're like if you're boundaries, you know, So it's like

(35:29):
that whole thing is it is just so there's something
oh man, that was we can laugh.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Now, excuse me, you have boundaries.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
So I was like, I have not.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Mother, Jane, you cannot talk to this way.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, I'm really proud of you for sharing market.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
How did your parents find out? Was it honestwekler? Did
you tell them before you went? No, I called them
and told them my mom.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
I called your parents. I found out I called his parents.
Oh yeah, And because I was really close with your
dad at the time, and I was just like shell shocked. Yeah,
And I didn't know who else do. I didn't want
to call my parents. I didn't know who to call,
and I was like, I want to talk to your dad.

(36:18):
So I called and then his mom. I got home
the next day, I said, I don't want him in
the house and I threw all of his clothes out
on the front porch like a good old, good old
movie scene, and his mom came and got him and
then what two days later you were in treatment?

Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah, it was yeah, yeah, my mom flew down to
be around, and then he had two A few days later.
I drove drove myself the treatment. So that was that's
hard too, because like my parents didn't really understand and
like you said, you asked about the abuse. My that's

(36:54):
people's first reaction. So my parents are like, did you
get abused by somebody? And we don't know, like tell us,
like it was it? Who was it? You know, they
start like rattling off names.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Like was it Joe? Was it? Was it this?

Speaker 3 (37:07):
Or was it that? Like tell us right now, like
we're ready to go off because they seem a little weird.
So I was like, no, no, no, you know, so yeah,
yeah it's And you know, even now, I'll like talk
to like my buddy's back east or something and say

(37:27):
I'm talking to him on the phone and they'll be like, oh,
you know, I'll call them, they're on there. Right in
from work, I go to a meeting. That's like first
thing in the morning out here in LA and they'm like, dude,
it's like six thirty year time are you doing that.
I was like, I'm going to a meeting or like
what meeting and I still like have hesitation. I'm about
I'm about like fifty fifty when I say I'm going

(37:48):
to twelve step meeting, I'm not. And they all know,
but it's.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Like, I don't know, well even like you're one friends
like you and your mends or what did he say,
like you're a sex satic? No, yeah, he's kind of
like he was like he said, it's very like a
little shameful way saying.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
He's like, oh, you're going to your sex sex addict meeting.
He's like, what do you guys? You just talk about
like sex addiction stuff. I was like, it's more than that,
but sure, but the way of diminishing it right, So yeah,
so yeah, exactly. So you know, I want to get
to a place where I think I'm at that place

(38:23):
where I am I'm talking about it, so I better
be at that place to own it more.

Speaker 7 (38:28):
It's a very little shame on an AA meeting.

Speaker 4 (38:31):
Now.

Speaker 6 (38:32):
Yeah, it's taken I think a long time for that
to exist. So I think you speaking out could could
help lessen the shame.

Speaker 3 (38:40):
That's that's the goal.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yeah, and you know, I think where you want to
go with this too, and to be able to go
out and speak on it and be you know, to
not make it.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Be such a stigma and an excuse a place in
an excuse.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
And unfortunately it's still going to be a curtain that
people use that are and you know, have high notoriety
and get themselves into situations and oh, I'm a sex
addict and now I'm okay and I understand and I cheated.

Speaker 4 (39:10):
How about I go to sex addiction therapy and then
we'll be okay.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
All right, right, Like you want to take me out
of the company, but well you let me just go
get treat me. Now this is a disorder, Like you
can't fire me because I you know, so there's going
to be those people that exploit it, but you know
there's stuff everywhere that people exploit. So I'm just here
to well.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
I'm really proud of you, and I'm proud of where
this can go for you and for the people that
you're going to help along the way.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Well, I appreciate that, honey, and I want to say
that I'm proud of you for your end and being
willing to be an advocate as a spouse who is
with somebody in this program, and think about the women
or men that you can help, you know, as the
spouse to this too, and help them understand things. You know.

(39:56):
I know you're still understanding things, but you've a long way.

Speaker 4 (40:02):
But so many where you were about to make the
effort to understand it, they would just say bye.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Oh for sure, for sure, which.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Is why I'm like, guys, why can't I just be
sarcastic sometimes? But then they just get on me. No,
but I'm really proud of you, babe. If any of
any of you guys have questions though, we'd love to
bring you know, someone on to help you if you
have any questions your marriage or your spouse.

Speaker 7 (40:25):
That was what I was going to ask you, And
I'm sorry to bring this on you guys.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Live No, it's okay.

Speaker 6 (40:29):
You're about to announce what we're doing. Oh yeah, and
I would like to have an expert at that. Oh wow,
in addition to the expert we're gonna So I'm geting
ahead of myself because I should.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, I was like, what we're doing well because we
were thinking about maybe having this c SAT therapist and
become on the show, but you're saying maybe on the live.

Speaker 7 (40:49):
Look, let's dive in head first. We're doing this event.

Speaker 6 (40:52):
You explain what we're doing.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Okay, and what I'm We are doing a live Thrive
Market podcast. So Mike and I who are cordially inviting
you to wind down with us on April seconds, So
thanks to Thrive Market, it's from six to eight pm
at the iHeartRadio Performance Studio in Burbank. Experienced the wind
Down podcast live and an exclusive acoustic performance by Mike.

(41:13):
Now I'm just kidding. We'll have snacks. I don't say wine.
We'll have snacks, and we would love to meet as
many of you as possible.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
And by the way, admit we're having one. Okay, that's right. Sorry,
Oh good.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
And by the way, if you aren't in LA, we
have an information later in the show about how you
can see us closer to where you are. So you
guys again April second, from six to eight iHeart Radio
Performance Studio in Burbank. We're so excited. How do they
get So you'll go to.

Speaker 6 (41:38):
Thrive Market dot com, slash Janak And what's really cool
is like when you go there, it's very easy to
navigate and sign up to enter to get to come.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Amazing.

Speaker 6 (41:47):
And so what I'm thinking is doctor Jen Mayn's going
to come, which I think she'll have some really good
input Yanks Christy Morel, who was on Love last week
or the week before to talk about nutrition and health
and eating issues, which look, it's all sort of.

Speaker 7 (42:02):
In the same pile.

Speaker 6 (42:03):
And then you want to do is have sort of
an intimacy expert so it can touch on this, but
also people's any questions they have about their relationships and
the importance of intimacy and intimacy being handled correctly.

Speaker 7 (42:17):
Yes, and then we'll have like a celebrity guest for fun.
It's not all gonna be to be.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
So pumped, it's gonna be so much about April second.
It's Thrive Market dot com slash Jana April second, six
to eight here in Burbank, California. Oh, it's gonna be fun.
I'm excited. So we're gonna have Joe Piazza on her
podcast is called Committed. It's available wherever you're listening to podcasts,
and she's awesome again. Talks about relationships. I'm super excited

(42:44):
to talk to her. But before we talk to Joe,
I want to tell you about brook Lennon. So, Michael
and I obviously like you, as you guys know, we're
moving to Nashville. We're super excited. We're setting up the
guest rooms right now in our master bedroom, and we're
just like loving Brooklynen in our master right now. So
that's why every single room in our house is going

(43:05):
to have Brooklynen sheets. So they make five star hotel
quality sheets more affordable and easy to order their luxury
sheets without the luxury markup, which is amazing because if
you didn't know, most bedding is marked up as much
as three hundred percent insane. They have amazing colors. You
can mix and match over twenty five colors and patterns
to make your bedroom just right. My Brooklynen sheets are

(43:27):
the best and so comfortable. And again, like I say,
you spend so much of your life in bed, so
you might as well sleep good with comfy sheets. Brooklynen
dot com has an exclusive offer just for you. Get
ten percent off your first order and free shipping when
you use promo code Jana at Brooklynen dot com. They're
also so confident in their product that all their sheets, comforters,
and towels come with a lifetime warranty. The only way

(43:50):
to get ten percent off your first order and free
shipping is to use promo code Jana at brooklynen dot com.
That's Brooklynen bro Oka l I N E N dot
com promo co Oh Jana brook Linen. These are really
the best sheets ever.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
We have one set of Brooklyn brooklyn in sheets, and
I can always tell the second I get into them
that all we've got around to Brooklyn and again, oh yeah,
because the other ones just don't.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Measure up, not at all.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Real fast, before we talk to Joe, I want to
tell you guys about Sunbird. So I have a really
hard time shopping for perfumes. I feel like it's frustrating
to have to commit to the big you know, Chanelle
bottle that's like seventy five one hundred dollars. It's frustrating,
and what if I don't really like it or I
really want to commit to it. But this is what
I love about Sunbird. So basically, they send you a

(44:36):
sample size of whatever sent you like. So after you
take a quiz online they'll send you something that is
like that. You can get anything from tom Ford, Gucci, Versaci.
They basically just keep you smelling good month after month.
The bottle lasts for me, lasts an entire month, which
is really really really great. And then there's more than

(44:57):
four hundred and fifty designer brands you can choose from.
Like I said, Productime Forward for Saschi del Changabana, Gucci
one hundred and twenty sprays in each bottle. Again, that's
a thirty day supply. So I kind of love it
and it's great because then you don't have to commit
to the entire bottle and it's a lot cheaper. So
with this an exclusive offer just for our listeners, you

(45:18):
can get fifty percent off your first month today. That's
only seven fifty for your first fragrance. So you go
to Centford dot com slash Jannet and use my promo
code Jana for fifty percent off your first month. Again,
that's cent Bird scnt bird dot com slash Jianna for
you to try your first perfume or cologne for just
seven to fifty sign on and smell amazing. And also
what I love about it too is when I travel,

(45:39):
I don't like to carry my big perfume bottle because
it gets taken away and I get really angry. It's like,
do you know how much I spent on that perfume?
So honestly, now I just use sunburn and it's really easy,
and it's just you put it in your gym bag
and your purse whatever, and you just pop it out
of the thing and then put the new one in
after the month and you twist it spray super ez. Okay,

(46:01):
So we have Joe Piazza on the phone.

Speaker 8 (46:02):
Joe, I'm here.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Hey girls, Jan and Mike. Hey, how you just doing good?

Speaker 2 (46:08):
How are you?

Speaker 8 (46:09):
I'm good, I'm good.

Speaker 5 (46:11):
I'm so glad.

Speaker 8 (46:11):
We can make this work.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
I know us too.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
We're super pumped and we'd love to just get right
on in it.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Do it.

Speaker 8 (46:18):
Let's just do it, just do it.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Let's just be committed to this.

Speaker 8 (46:22):
We are committed.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Did you like that little plug?

Speaker 2 (46:26):
So you have obviously you have your podcast called Committed,
and then you also you have a book out called
how to Be Married.

Speaker 8 (46:34):
I do, yeah, I'm committed to committed. That kind of
came out of How to Be Married?

Speaker 1 (46:39):
So how long you been married for?

Speaker 8 (46:41):
Oh, I've kind of been married at all. It's funny
because when you write a book like that, people are like, oh,
you must be a marriage doct bert, and I'm like, no,
I wrote the book because I have no idea what
what the hell I'm doing. That's why I wrote it.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
That's amazing, amazing. So what did you learn then?

Speaker 8 (46:56):
Well, so I got married on the later side, right, Like,
I was thirty when I got married, my husband was
forty one, and I had no idea how the hell
to be a wife. I had no idea how.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
To do this.

Speaker 8 (47:06):
So I would travel editor at the time and traveled
around the world asking different men and women advice, and
I'm like, how do you do this? How are you
actually someone's life? How do you actually live in the
same house and make a marriage work? And it was awesome.
I visited thirteen countries on six continents in the course

(47:27):
of a year in my first year of marriage. And
what we realized was it was the stories from people
that teach you how to be married. Then you know,
as long as humans have been humans and have been
getting married, we've learned how to do this because people
pass down these kind of oral histories and these stories, right,
But we don't do that anymore. We don't talk about
marriage except to brad like we have brags on Instagram,

(47:49):
but we don't talk about the nitty gritty, bush hard
parts of a marriage that our actual, real things that
can help us get through it.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
Well we do.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
You're right, You're right there, Joe. It's either like the
glorified aspect on Instagram or it's when you're with your friends.
It's like more people are just bitching about their spouse
than exactly. Sorry, So it's like one extreme or the other,
like no between.

Speaker 8 (48:13):
There's no in between. I mean, you're right, it's like
Instagram like halftime date night, or you're just like bitching
in moment moaning. You don't actually actually have real conversations
about what a marriage is like. And so you know,
I travel around the world. I interview women from really
fancy women in Paris who tell me to buy all
of this expensive lingerie and I'm like, sure, I'll totally
do it, and then I totally didn't do it. And

(48:36):
Orthodoxyish women in Jerusalem, uh polygamous tribes in Tanzania and Kenya,
which were the most fascinating, which made me believe that
I would totally be cool with Nick bringing a second
wife on board if she wants to help me with
the child care.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
Here.

Speaker 6 (48:53):
Not to jump in, but one of our most listened
to episodes ever was with the Sister Wives.

Speaker 7 (49:00):
It was so fascinating.

Speaker 8 (49:02):
Yeah, I get it. I mean what we learned is
that it was all about economies of scale, right. It
was it was women kind of picking over control in
these relationships, but men were secondary and women are like,
all right, this is how we're dividing up all of
the crazy amount of labor we have to do. If
we can't get it all done, we're gonna bring another
wife into this situation. And the guy is just over
there sitting under a palm tree.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
What was the like, what was the streamline between both
the men and women that you saw that was common
when when you got the stories. Was it communication? Was
it being a friend?

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Was there any constant through all of this.

Speaker 8 (49:37):
It's one of the one of the things I learned was,
I mean, it is communication, right, Everyone's like, have better communication,
have better communication. And then on the sib side of that,
no one knows how to communicate, so having and it's
all starting out by having better communication about communications. But
the streamline, because we were in so many different countries,

(49:57):
was where Americans really met. It all up us and
where it all goes to hell for us is that
we have these expectations going into a marriage that people
in other countries still tend to have, and we put
so much weight on a marriage. So we're like, all right,
we're getting married. That person's going to be my soulmate.
They're going to be my best friend, they're going to
be the person I work out with, I took with,
I have the best steps in my life with. They're
going to be my shrink. And in other countries they're like,

(50:20):
you just you marry your husband or your wife and
they're your husband or your wife and that's their role
and you don't expect them to solve all of your problems.
But in the space we do, we have this soulmate
problem and I think it's a romantic comedy problem, right
what it is? And then you get married you realize
that person is in all those things and your expectations
are just crushed and you're miserable.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Is there a country that you witness that's doing it
right or at least has it close to you know, perfection,
but just more consistent than America.

Speaker 8 (50:49):
Well it's I mean, it's just all of Northern Europe
get more things right than we do. So we're talking Sweeden,
Denmark one because they just have equality between the sets
is a lot more than we do. And two they
have a lot more of a laws I fair attitude
towards marriage. They get divorced, it's probably about the same

(51:10):
rate that we do, but they don't put all of
this pressure on it. Divorce doesn't make or break you.
There's not a big stigma. You can get divorced online
for about thirty nine dollars. People celebrate their divorce adversary.
It's just they don't put all of this weight on
a marriage and all of this societal pressure, and because
they have a social safety net, a marriage is also

(51:30):
not going to make or break them financially.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Do other cultures or other countries believe in therapy? Are they?
Or is it just America that we just everyone goes therapists?

Speaker 8 (51:43):
No, no, no, no, no, I mean I thought so many
other cultures depend on therapy in all in all kinds
of forms too, right, So therapy could mean talking to
one your sister wife or talking to your mother in law,
or or having actual, real meaningful conversations with your friends,
or you guys can probably hear my baby right now.

(52:05):
He's gonna calm down my mom, miss drabbing it right now.
But yeah, I mean, I think other countries actually have
less and particular particularly other European countries which are a
lot more civilized than we are, tend to have less
less stigma on therapy. Uh, and it was great. My
husband and I started going to therapy before we got married.

(52:27):
We still go to therapy once every six months, and
I think it's the one good thing we've done for
our marriage. Getting getting a lot of childcare.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Yeah, so your husband, Nick, obviously is you know, is
a huge part of this. So what's one thing that
you guys both think that you guys are doing right
And what's one thing that you guys both feel like
you have to work on.

Speaker 5 (52:48):
Oh, we have a.

Speaker 8 (52:49):
Thousand things for work on, So we'll start with what
we're doing right. We travel apart, and I got this
advice from a lot of women in different countries. We
have completely separate vacations where he'll go off with his
buddies for a week and go camping and I'll go
with my girlfriends and go to a spa, or I
did a road trip across the country with one of
my friends. And it allows us to be apart so

(53:11):
we can come back and like each other again. And
I think that's huge, and I got a lot of
criticism from it from a lot of my American friends
are like, why would you go on separate plications? Is
something wrong? And I'm like, no, we shouldn't see together
all the time. It's exhausting and we're not interesting to
each other if we're together all the time. The French
women really stress that in addition to the fancy launde
right again, which is just way too expenses. You can

(53:32):
get a really cute brought target. You don't need to
spend four hundred dollars in bra But they're like, make
sure you have some mystery in your marriage, and I
means spending time apart. You don't need to be together
all the time. And I mean there's so many things
we're still trying to work on. We're I really think
that having a kid blew up our marriage. We're married
for a year and then I got pregnant and we're

(53:54):
still trying to figure out and I'm pregnant again and
thank you. And we're still trying to figure out how
to navigate the world as husband and wife and parents.
And I think exciting.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
I know that you're wanting to work. You know, it's
like you're you're living life, and that's the together and
with the craziness and sometimes you know, Mike and I
have obviously we have our our four month old and
then our three year old, but you know, it's it's
crazy and it's like Jolly's screaming, the babies crying, and
you know, we're trying to figure out something. It's just
you kind of look and those moments, I'm like, I
almost love those moments because that's you're just like you're

(54:28):
living you know, you're living it exactly.

Speaker 8 (54:31):
I mean, it's like it's real life and trying to
figure out how the hell this marriage thing works with
in the chaos, right, And so we're just trying to
we're trying to figure that out. And I'll tind to
figure out who the hell we want to be when
we grow up. Like now I'm close to the forty
next to the mid forties, and we're like, what are
we doing? What do we want to do with the
rest of our lives, and that takes a lot of communication.
So I have to think we need to double down

(54:52):
on our therapy.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
Where can our listeners sign you?

Speaker 5 (54:55):
Beib So the kind of podcast is on the iHeart
we do app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts,
and I'm on Instagram at Joe pa author and jo
dot com.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Awesome.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Well you're the best and we were looking forward to
being on your podcast too.

Speaker 8 (55:15):
Yeah, I can't wait.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Awesome, Thanks Joe, Hi, Joe, Bye, guys.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Okay, So Joe's really sweet, by the way, She's sweet sweet.
I just want to get into we.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
Got a lot of emails about the whole awesome.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
I mean, yeah, so many emails about that. But now
there's like a whole new thing too, called snowplowing snowplow parents.
But do you have any thoughts that came up from
what we talked about last week?

Speaker 3 (55:41):
No, I think that the timing of this the whole
kind of snowplowing concept, which by definition is a person
who constantly forces obstacles out of their kids' paths.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
So basically, a recent pull by The New York Times
in Morning console found that three quarters of parents of
children between the ages of eighteen. Guys, this isn't three
and five, eighteen and twenty eight. So let me just
say again, eighteen so when your child is graduating an
adults and twenty eight, when some people are married with kids,

(56:13):
had made their children appointments for doctor visits, haircuts, and
all their kids' bosses if their child was having an
issue at work times.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Supported have so many issues with this. Look, let me
let me say this.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
You go first.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
I had an interesting thought when we were talking off
the mic that Amy and Mark, you guys kind of
started bringing up. I wonder because like you, like you
started saying, Mark, A lot of this is like parent driven, Yeah,
because they want to brag or they want to say
that their kid has this job, or the kid made
this team, or they got this that whatever, they got
in to this school, they got this trophy, they got

(56:47):
this accolade. I wonder if it's peak none even I wonder.
I have to assume that it's because of the social
media outbreak. Actually, our parents being the major generation on
like Facebook nowadays, the older generation of the ones that
use that, they want that so they can post that stuff.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
That's so funny one.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
Hundred because what else are they posting. They're not posting
there these they're in their late forties and their fifties
years on there.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
What are they posting it on Facebook?

Speaker 2 (57:15):
Twenty right?

Speaker 3 (57:16):
What are they posting about themselves? What are our parents
posting about themselves? Nothing? Maybe a trip they go on.
What's the thing that they can post about their kids
and what they're doing? Other than that, they wouldn't have
anything to post on because they probably had the same
job they've had for the last thirty years, like both
of my parents, because they get one job.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
It's like their Instagram. It's like that they're like their.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
It's their thing, it's their material to post about is
your kids, which we get because we love our kids,
right and we love posting stuff about them. But when
it gets I just it makes it just kind of
makes sense to me why this is happening now, But
it's so.

Speaker 7 (57:48):
Out of control.

Speaker 6 (57:49):
Like the only word that comes to mind when I
saw this article was like how embarrassing? Like you imagine
if you're eighteen years old, nineteen, maybe in your twenties,
I got your first real job and like something goes
awry and your Mommy calls your boss.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
I follow that boss. I would fire that person. I
would fire them.

Speaker 6 (58:09):
Yahire them. But it's like what goes on, and then
I get it. I can see mommy's making their twenty
somethings haircut, and there was even like making sure they
didn't have sauce or too much spice.

Speaker 7 (58:23):
On their food, and they're like in their twenties.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
I mean, look again, I would do anything for my child,
but when my daughter's eighteen years old, I'm going to
go into the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Honey.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
I moved to New York when I was eighteen, on
my own right, and then like living on my own
in Los Angeles at nineteen, like freaking grow up.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
It's different with your son, oh interesting, And it will
be different with your son time out.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
That is so true because his mother and nables.

Speaker 4 (58:51):
Yes, and mine does too.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yes, I mean you're right, yes, Oh my god, it's
so true.

Speaker 4 (58:59):
They go make a I fear yourself when Jace is
twenty two and says, Mommy, I don't feel good. You're
gonna run over there with soup and pedia life.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
My god, you're so right.

Speaker 4 (59:08):
It's just what it is.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
You're so right, You're so right, But why is that?

Speaker 4 (59:13):
That's a great question and I don't know.

Speaker 6 (59:15):
But I can play the other side because Daddy's little girl.
Like when I am like, oh, Dad, I need help
with this.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
One hundred percent, I will run while Jana's running to Jay's,
I will run to Joey because I'll be like, Jase,
suck it up, rub some dirt on it.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
I'll be like Meanwhile, I'll be like, hy, this is
missus Cosson. I'm calling on behalf of Jace. You know,
ma'am you mean your twenty seven year old son. Yes,
he's sick right now with the fever. He can't come in.

Speaker 6 (59:39):
So I have a question for you guys, because I
have my own opinion on this and I would love
to hear what you say. So let's say, let's say
twenty three out of college to eighteen, twenty three out
of college and your kid's hard worker, right, good grades.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Johnson, live at home, not even home.

Speaker 7 (59:54):
They want you to help them pay for their apartment.

Speaker 6 (59:56):
They got a job, doesn't pay much though, but it's
a good job.

Speaker 7 (01:00:01):
Would you help support them?

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Yeah, if they're.

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
Working, because if the results are there, they are they
are trying, They're doing what they can. And if you're
showing me that, you're showing you're giving that effort. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Having said that, Michael and I did just get into
an argument because he said he wanted to buy Jolia
Carr and I said, no, you are not buying her.
We are not buying her a car, and he look
as you're rolling ryes right now at me when when
she's sixteen. I was like, absolutely not, and he's like
why And I was like, because I worked my butt
off as a waitress to get ma Alero.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Quit every job as a waitress.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
It doesn't matter. I still made my least payments.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
In twenty thirty two. It's all going to be self
driving cars anyway. True, really true.

Speaker 6 (01:00:40):
But I'm just saying, like that's like the family truckster,
like the hand me down totally.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
And here's the thing I have no problem again, Like
I would help her with the payments if she was working,
if she was, but I would never buy her a
new car. I would buy her or a used car,
like she needs to help pay for those payments the
car I got now, Jase, I will buy him a Mercedes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
He will have the brand new Jeep.

Speaker 4 (01:01:04):
Why is that? Why are we so hard on the
same gender.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
That's a really good question. I don't know, you know what.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
I would love to maybe like get your mom on
the show to ask her, like why, because I'm sure
she only did that for you and not for for Tara.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
Well, yeah, but my dad was harder on me. Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
Way, so my my dad was hard on my brother too,
And so is that is that? Why?

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
Then?

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Is it because.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
Itselves in our same sex children and that's why?

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
Or no?

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Is it because we see them being so hard on
so like he's going to be harder on Jason, he's
with Jolie. I'm going to be harder on Jolie than
you know, than he is. So is it maybe?

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Is that it?

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
Then?

Speaker 4 (01:01:46):
I don't think so, because I think even if if
if you were raising these kids by yourself, if it's
the exact same dynamic, really I think.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
So interesting, it's so interesting if I'm curious to know
what you guys think. Jana kramant iHeartMedia dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
But that is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Really see my parents went like Havesi's with me on
like a seven thousand dollars two thousand and one tours, Honey,
I'm sick and.

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
Still on the car.

Speaker 7 (01:02:08):
It's all like I'm gonna wear.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
We're gonna buy Jolie a car. It's gonna be a beater, honey.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
I'm just saying I want her to help.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
That's why.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Yeah, she can have a job.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
Yeah, yeah, she's not if she's not in extracurricular activities
that don't allow her to have a job.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
I'm just saying with this whole snowplow thing, I'm just
not going to be one hundred percent like, here is
your car.

Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
Help, She's like no, if she's if she's doing extracurricular
activities to doing something she shouldn't have a job, but
she's in like clubs or whatever it may be. Not
if she just comes home from school and goes to
her room sitting on her phone talking to her friends.
Here he says, Mommy, I want a car.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Yeah. And here's what I'll say. What my grandpa did
with my brother was the best example. And this is
what I would do. I would say, you have do
you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
Just have it all figured out? Don't know?

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
I would say, come on, someone attack Mike for being
me to be right there.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
She'll still get my back.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
When my my my brother paid for the car payments
and my grandpa kept the checks and the money and
when the car was paid off, he gave him the twenty.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Five grand Oh wow. And that is what I would
do because.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
You you grew up my grandpa Martin. That's he's you know,
he was my everything. Like love him. He's my grandpa
that watches me every day. I know that with every
part of me. That is what I would do. As
I would say, Joel, you need to pay for this car.
He wants you. Probably, I was like, you, you will
pay for this car. But at the end of it,
I will give her all of the money. That's because
she worked really hard. I didn't know that that was

(01:03:36):
going to ask zero idea.

Speaker 7 (01:03:38):
Well done.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
Yeah, that is a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Zero idea. And I think money for college or whatever
he wanted. And I don't know what he used it on,
but that was the greatest example that I could. That's
showed hard work, that he paid for his commitment and
his work his word.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
And that's that's the really and we should do that.
And I will say yeah on Snoop flowing. So we
move back to Tennessee eventually. I want to just for
a front for me, like I never wanted to get
into coaching, but I would love to coach high school.
I think it'd be a lot of fun in coach
high school football. And again, call me old fashioned. I
dare a parent to come talk to me about their

(01:04:19):
son or I guess I gotta be political, politically correct,
or daughter playing football, their child playing football. I dare
a parent to come talk to me. I can't wait
for that. I might come home without being a coach anymore.
I might get fired, but I will let it be
known that this is not gonna fly. I relish. I
hope that happens. I can't wait. I can't wait.

Speaker 6 (01:04:42):
That's you want to hear nuggets like that or about
Grandpa Martin in person.

Speaker 7 (01:04:49):
Janna and Michael have a big announcement right now.

Speaker 6 (01:04:52):
Act if you're in New York, New York, Boston, Alexander, Virginia,
listen up, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Really big announcement. We are taking Wine down on the
road for a wind down podcast tour, live tour, live tour.
We're going on the road May sixteenth, the Birchmere, Alexandria, Virginia.
May seventeenth, Sony Hall, May seventeenth, Sony Hall, New York,
New York, May eighteenth, the Wilburg, Boston, Massachusetts. The pre

(01:05:24):
sale starts March twenty six at janakramer dot com. You
guys tickets, so we're gonna be talking about all this stuff.
We might even bring some of you guys up on
stage with that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Interactive it's going to be interact. Come be prepared to talk.
We might pull you up.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
Yeah, but we really really want you guys to come
see us, so please. Presale starts March twenty sixth, tomorrow
at janakramer dot com. And guys, I'm doing it again.
My new single Beautiful Live.

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
We'll be available everywhere on Friday, March twenty ninth. From
information go to janakramer dot com. We're super pumped.

Speaker 6 (01:06:03):
Will we be able to hear your new song on
April second here in LA And will these guys be
able to hear it when they show up at your show?

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
So another yes. So for everyone who goes to the
Wine Down Podcast tour May sixteenth, some to their eighteenth,
and on April second, I'm going to do a performance
and you'll be able to hear Beautiful Eyes, my new single,
and a few other songs. So it's only It's going
to be a great intimate night with Mike and Mike
and I thanks, thanks guys.

Speaker 4 (01:06:31):
And you should mention the Napa Valley Wine Train.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Yes please, and Amy, I would like for you to
many thanks, so many things. I'm excited. I know this
is this is good. This is probably one of my
most favorite exciting ones. Go ahead, So here's.

Speaker 6 (01:06:44):
One more opportunity to see Janna and Mike. If you
are in the Bay Area, northern California, even southern take
a trip to Napa. So on April sixth, we are
going on the Napa Valley Wine Train, which.

Speaker 7 (01:06:58):
Is so awesome.

Speaker 6 (01:07:00):
It's basically this beautiful train, four course gourmet meal, drinking wine.
We're gonna stop at the Mondavi Winery. You're gonna be
with jan and Mike, You're gonna be with a ton
of people from The Bachelor, even Tanya rad from Ryan
Seacrest Morning Show. And this one's special because every penny
we raise will go to the Red Cross. So you
go to if Only dot Com just search Jana and
it'll come up, and we are covering all the costs

(01:07:24):
so that every penny you donate, let's all go right
to the Red Cross and it is to prepare California
for earthquakes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
That's huge, Thank you Amy for doing that. Y April
second April second April sixth, April, six.

Speaker 6 (01:07:38):
May sixteen, seventeen eighteen. If you're on the East coast,
go to Janakramer dot com for all the info, all
the info.

Speaker 7 (01:07:45):
Yeah, she'll help you out.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
You guys, a big thank you to Brooklyn and get
ten percent off your first order and for shipping with
promo code Jana at Brooklyn dot com. That's Brooklyn and
b r O ok L I n e N dot
com promo code Jana sent BERD. Get fifty percent off
your first month today. That's only seven fifty for your
first fragrance. Go to sempord dot com slash Jana and
use the code Jana for fifty percent off your first month.
I think that's a show, guys, you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Want to now.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
Earlier, Marissa says she found out her husband as a narcissist.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
I just love that the title. You've found out your
husband's a narcissists. I mean, did you not know?

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
Like well, she started going to therapy and learned that
her husband is narciss sarstrastistic personality disorder.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
If you don't know what you're looking for.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Ye, that's true, because.

Speaker 4 (01:08:29):
Learning about this has been so free and yet and
trapping all at once. He doesn't have empathy in tough times.
He has a public face and a private face, and
the private face is not pretty. He has haughty behaviors. Mean,
I'm gonna looking that one up. Yeah, Hi, Horsey, that's.

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
All I close on the thing that's true, could use.

Speaker 4 (01:08:48):
Yeah, we've been going to marriage counseling, but I just
feel nothing is coming of it, and he doesn't believe
anything I say is true. I consider staying married because,
like Jana, I have always felt my purpose in life
is to be a mom and I want that so badly.
But wouldn't that make me a bad mom by having
children with somebody like this?

Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
Oh and they don't have kids later?

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Time out, time out, I mean depends how old she is,
they're bad. I mean I get to question that with you,
you know, and be like, all right, it's gonna take
me this long to find somebody else.

Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
Well, many would have said to Jianna later in her situation,
but you acknowledge you edit a problem, and you saw it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Help.

Speaker 4 (01:09:28):
This guy's not seeking.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Help here's the thing. If your husband's not seeking help,
then yes, my advice is to not to have children
with something someone that's not wanting to get help, is
my personal opinion. You have to follow your heart, though,
if you think that it hasn't has it in him
to change. Sometimes guys just take a longer road to
get there.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
Narcissism is tough to break. Well said tough, just from
my experience of just therapy and counseling and knowing a
lot of different guys. And this it's a beast. I mean,
it's it's true. It's basically telling someone to believe in

(01:10:10):
a whole different reality.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
Well then how do they get help?

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
Then?

Speaker 6 (01:10:14):
So if you heavily researched narcissism, which I suggest anyone
with a narcissist in there.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
I know we've talked about it before.

Speaker 7 (01:10:21):
Yeah, I have almost impossible to quote cure.

Speaker 6 (01:10:25):
If the person is so devoted to working on it,
they can improve.

Speaker 7 (01:10:31):
But that's if it. You know, we're we got five
sentences here, so I don't want to like.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
Arm well, and you have to see remember remember remember
the narcissist expert that came on. If there's like if
you have all eight. So I would go through the
checklist and see how many he has to go to
the checklist. This is a narciss checklist, and see if
he's got all eight. That's going to be a tough
one to break.

Speaker 6 (01:10:51):
Harm that people use loosely when that's more inaccurate. If
it's actually legit, then I'm concerned.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
Yeah, yeah, if there's just if there's there's a different
great point. I mean, there's a huge difference between narcissistic
tendencies and being a full blown narcissist.

Speaker 4 (01:11:08):
But also the definition of a narcissist to someone who
thinks they're perfect and doesn't require right exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
So that's that's exactly my point, Like you're trying to
explain to someone who thinks they're perfect that their reality
is actually not reality. It's like a twilight zone.

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
I mean, I feel like Marissa, maybe maybe you, like
you said, learning this has been so freeing for you,
So maybe this is your realization that thank goodness you
found this out now and just learn.

Speaker 3 (01:11:37):
Like Janet, I think there's a good point. Go through
that checklist. You can find that online and do your research,
talk to your therapist, determine what you can live with.
So maybe instead of trying to maybe he has four
things out of the eight, just pick specific ones that
you know you can't live with and attack just those, like, Okay,

(01:11:59):
if I'm able to convince him or change him, alter
him in some way with those ones, those non negotiables,
all right, maybe I can do this. But determine what
those are.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Yeah, And I also say too. I mean, at the
end of the day, though, you got to do it's
right for you and don't settle too.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
But to your point, it's like you want in our relationship,
you want to do everything you could, so you know,
you could look yourself in the mirror, look at our
kids and say I tried. Yeah, maybe same thing for.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Her and also too, but and the same point. Yes,
I totally agree with you, honey. But if he's not
willing to do the work, and he's not willing to
look in the mirror, oh yeah, I mean that's your
quick you both people answer right there.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
If he's not willing to do anything, then yeah, yeah, all.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Right, that was a good one. Hey, I just want
to circle back around and say, I'm really proudy and
I'm really looking forward to seeing all the things that
you're going to do with us in the platform you're building.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
Thank you. I appreciate it, and I appreciate you guys
giving me the platform to talk about it, and Amy
and Mark, you guys willing to let that happen on
this show. And I hope, I hope.

Speaker 7 (01:13:02):
I just hate no shame in anything.

Speaker 6 (01:13:05):
That's why I love that you guys say what you say,
because you remove shame, which is the worst.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
I hope our listeners have been great. I hope you
guys receive this with grace and treat it as such
and respond as such. And just know that Jane and
I are opening up about this to help people out there,
and there's a there's so much more we can we
will dive into on this topic on the addiction sex

(01:13:31):
addiction topic. We'll get specialists on here. We'll got people
who have gone through this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
And again, if you're at the LA area April second,
Thrive Market dot com slash Jana to come see us podcast.
It's gonna be.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
Fun, all right, see you then, love you, Love you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Good job, good job,

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Host

Jana Kramer

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