Connecting Love & Sex

 Mike is ready to open up about sex addiction, as he reaches 1 year of sobriety. It’s an addiction that is difficult for people to understand, so Jana and Mike reveal some of the challenges they’ve faced that they’ve never spoken about before. And Mike answers some common questions about his treatment, and where they go from here as a married couple. 

Then they talk to Jo Piazza, from the Committed Podcast, about what makes their marriage strong, and what they hope other families can learn from their story. 

Plus, what is “snowplow parenting”?? Jana and Mike get to the bottom of it, and try to predict what types of parents they’ll be as their children get older. 

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Swine Down with Jane Kramer. I heart radio podcast. Happy Monday, guys,
got nothing. I was every time I think on Monday,
it happens. I don't know. You probably never watched SpongeBob,
but when my brother was little, SpongeBob was like huge
and SpongeBob like any day of the week, but especially Mondays.

(00:22):
He would wake up and say, it's Monday. I'd love
Mondays and like screaming. So that's just what I think
about when we say happy Monday. Well, no, I'm never
going to say that because I got northern back. Sorry, honey,
You've had a good day. You went golfing, great day day.
No matter what happens the restaurday, my day is great. Um,
I'm just gonna let you just take it. Thanks, You're welcome, Bob. Um. No,

(00:49):
I'm excited for today's episode. It's going to be fun.
Neither of you is feeling well because he's coughing and
you're a little raspie today. Thanks Dad. Yeah, you know
what endless cold lit your really it's I started with
the cold and then I passed it to Jay's and
then Jay's passed it to Jolie, and Jolie passed it
to Dad and then I was good, and then all

(01:09):
of a sudden, I woke up a couple of days
ago sniffling again. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me.
And Mike goes, this is karma because you were mean
to me when I had Michaels. Because you're minimizing my cold.
You're fine, You're fine. See what happens? Can I still
have like yeah? So sorry sorry, So it's just never

(01:31):
ending niffles out there. Um. So, yeah, this is a
big day because what we're going to talk about is
something pretty deep. Don done, don't done done? Um No,
So just to jump into it. So all of you
listeners who have heard Jane and I talked through our

(01:52):
story and maybe read about our history, our story, there's
been skepticism throughout things that were printed or written or
talked about about me. Um during our time of separation
when everything was happening. Uh, almost three years ago that
I saw treatment for sex addiction, UH, a impatient treatment facility.

(02:17):
And there's some three years it's coming on three years,
maybe three years this summer. So I'm at a place now,
Joanna and I are and I are at a place
to validate that those I guess rumors are skepticism around
that that. Yes, I did. Janna kind of gave me
an ultimatum when everything came out and she discovered everything,

(02:40):
and she looked at me and said, you know, you
need to go somewhere basically, like you need to figure
out what's going on and what this is or I'm gone, period.
And uh, So I talked to our then a couple
of therapists and told me about a UM impatient treatment

(03:01):
facility that was not too far from Nashville, just about
half a day's drive. And so I drove down there
and checked myself in and was in for sixty days.
And uh, that's something. Ever since then, I've been in
the twelfth step program of sex addiction. Um, it's weird

(03:27):
to say right now, I will say that it's Uh
it's kind of been nice to hide behind that curtain
of skepticism. Um, you know, all of my closest obviously
all my family and friends knew. But uh, but yeah,

(03:48):
so ever since then I've been a part of that program,
in the twelve step program, it hasn't been perfect. Um,
those of you who are in an addiction program themselves
or are close with someone who is an addict in
somewhere shape or form, I'm sure understands the pain and
shame and that goes along for both parties, for all

(04:08):
parties in a situation with addiction. And uh, you know,
for me, I realized a lot of things throughout my
life that sex and sexual acting out was my addictive
behavior and that's where I went to hide my feelings,
to run away from reality, and that was my drug.

(04:33):
Um So yeah, it Uh, it manifests in different ways
for different people, and it's something that I'm approaching, approaching
a year of sobriety, uh next week, where I now
I finally thought it felt like I was at a

(04:53):
place to discuss it and own it. Um M, nothing's guaranteed,
even though my you know, years next week. I live
one day at a time, you know. Um But yeah,
So my whole reason for bringing this up is just

(05:14):
too Genna and I have realized we've been able to
help people a lot through our story, um through this podcast,
and we just wanted to be even more authentic, vulnerable
and open to you guys, and to offer another layer
of our story to those out there who deal with

(05:36):
addiction in some way, shape or form um, so just
know that we're here to listen and to talk about
it in addition to everything else that we've been addressing
on this podcast over the last year. But uh, but yeah,
I think that's all I got to say about that

(05:58):
for now. Um, I mean we have I have questions, Yeah, okay, Yeah,
Well I first just want to say I'm proud of
you for um speaking your truth. You didn't need to
and you know you It came to me and said
you would think you were ready, and I was just like,
I you don't never have to say anything because you
don't have to say anything to anyone or but I

(06:19):
think it's really they give you that you want to
use this and help people. Um. You know that's where
almost like the silver lining is you're wanting to help
people because so many people live in shame and you
know that it's sad that part of this is you know,
it's supposed to be anonymous, but unfortunately it wasn't. And

(06:40):
that's where I think has been unfortune because so many
people in the program get to live anonymously, but because
there's been so much speculation, you know, it's and I
can honestly say I don't I probably wouldn't come out
with it if there wasn't anything speculated out there, because
I envy the guys I'm in programmed with that their

(07:02):
parents I don't even know, their siblings, don't know, their
closest friends don't know. It's just between them and their
spouse mhm. And I'm like, I'm envious of that. I'm like, well,
what does that feel like? Because everyone that knows me
knows or at least has speculated. That's a good point.

(07:23):
The anonymous element, the way, the way that those people
are going through it is kind of how it's meant
to be gone through. Yeah, anonymity is is part of
the you know, the principles of any twelve step program.
And what had happened when I was on Dancing with
the Stars is I was on the cover of US
Weekly magazine and it's married to a sex addict, and

(07:48):
it was you know, it is it. I don't want
to take it's it's it's hard for both sides. But
at the same time, it's like I never wanted that
to come out. Yeah, at the time, did I want
people to know that you cheated? Sure? You know, because
I didn't want I was just as embarrassed. But I
didn't want people to know that part, because that's that's

(08:10):
an addiction element, you know, So to have something plastered
like that, my first reaction was I felt bad for you,
Like I didn't want that to be out there for
you and then for our kids and whoever else. So
were you able to You're actually able to feel that
in that moment? Yeah, I was, Yeah, even though because
I still didn't talk to you yet, you were still

(08:31):
in treatment. I know I wasn't answering your calls. But
I've just gotten out. Oh you just gotten out, okay,
But yeah, so I I do remember that feeling. But um,
but yeah, so that's the part that I can understand
that you would relate to wanting to be anonymous. But
then the same time, I just you couldn't do so
much with this too, especially with the platform that we're

(08:53):
able to start with. So um, yeah, Mark, do you
want to ask a questions? I mean a lot of
these questions and none of my business. I just tell
me if it's not now. But I think people have people,
don't you know. I've I didn't know what it was
in the beginning either, and I've learned so much and
about sex addiction through this process. But you know, and

(09:13):
I've had to then, um, well, how how do I
educate my my mom, my, my family, my friends about
what it is? Because so many people ask me the
same questions and I'm sure, you know, ask him the
same questions, so I'm sure it'll be those same questions.
But I think it's a you know, an addiction that
isn't talked about, and it's just kind of on the
forefront of people talking about it because it's one of

(09:34):
those addictions where you can't I mean, you can stop
having alcohol. You can't, It's right, It's the one addiction
that you still use essentially in your life. So it's
like it's like an alcoholic telling an alcoholic, Hey, you're
an alcoholic, can't really drink alcohol, but you can still
have it sometimes actually, So it's like, but you can

(09:56):
have alcohol in a healthy way. What what the hell
does that look like? If he's about your whole life
drinking in an unhealthy way, what does drinking a healthy
way look like? So it's the same thing for sex.
It's like, hey, this is like for me, I never,
like I've said on here before, sex and love never correlated.
For me and for my brain. So you know, it's
you've had sex due to unhealthy feelings your whole life.

(10:20):
Now you here you need to do it in a
healthy way. And I'm like, what what does that look like? What?
That doesn't make sense? Was it the therapy that helps
you put together the sex and love problem or did
you always know that that was a disconnect for you? No,
it was therapy. Yeah, yeah, I made up that when

(10:40):
I was with the when I found the one, the
person I was supposed to be with, then all those
issues that I would have would go away. I'll just
basically excuse it and be like, oh, I cheated because
I'm I'm meant to be with her, or I don't
feel like I have sex with my significant other. Yeah,

(11:02):
that just that must mean that I'm not supposed to
be with her, I don't really like her. It's not
necessarily the case. So sex addiction is as an interesting
thing because I think it also can be used as
an excuse, And I feel like that's what people are
gonna ask us about it. When you hear about I
don't know, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, these guys who are

(11:23):
accused of these things. Oh, they're going away for sex
addition treatment and then everything's going to be fine. Anythink, really,
is that really the issue or they just kind of right?
So I feel like I feel like it's an excuse
by some people. It's a legitimate thing for some people.
And is that an issue with you? Because because I
gotta believe there's a lot of people that you think
he's just a jerk and using this as an excuse,

(11:45):
or he's just a football player, which is what a
lot of people say. You know, he's just an athlete. Right,
That's actually probably the best question you can lead off with,
because that is where a big portion of the initial
shame aime comes from. Because like, for me, I believe
I'm a good person and so many other aspects of

(12:07):
my life I've been a good person except for you
know relation, you know, relations in relationships, and so dealing
with trying to come to terms with admitting steppointed, admitting
your powerless over addictive behavior. Admitting that is like the
hardest part because you're torn. You're like, well, I don't

(12:31):
think I'm a sex addict. Like what but if if
I'm not an addict, then does that mean I'm just
a piece of So it's like it's this shame game
of just like what am I. It's like each either
direction you go, there's shame. I'm either a sex addict
or um, a piece of crap and I'm an a
hole you said, I'm just a jerk. I treat women bad,

(12:52):
I do bad things. So that is a big issue
where people just say I even watched a stand a
comedian that I that I like, and he had a
bit where he talked about sex addiction quick and he
talked about, you know, that's just a man's excuse for
what he did or for cheating or whatever. For some people,

(13:14):
maybe sure, but you know, and people still have that speculation.
Even when I talk to some of Janna's family, they're like,
you know, we'll support Janna whatever she decides, but I
don't believe that this is a real thing. I was like,
that's fine, you don't have to. It's also the older
generation too, you know for sure? For sure, Um, it's

(13:39):
definitely because that especially when it comes to sex addiction,
I feel like alcohol or drugs, well, that's like, you know,
that's that's a whole another ball game where yeah, people
that are in a or n A say they're going
to meetings or so where people are like they get
they get empathy, they get sempath like, oh good job,

(14:01):
good for you. You say you're in sex addiction, people like,
oh shame, whoa what's that? But that's also part of
the evolution, right because I feel like years ago, if
you said you're alcoholic, people are like what, no question.
That's how it started. It's all we're learning empathy. As
the program is, we're about fifteen years behind in society,

(14:23):
so it's going to take another ten of fifty years
for people to understand it and respected as a and addiction. Um.
But again I get back to your point. You know,
the whole thing of an excuse first and actual chemical
issue in your brain. Um. You know, if anyone on

(14:44):
the outside would go to a could go to an
open meeting and see the people in there, it's not
just a bunch of people that are married. There's people
in there for age ranges from eighteen to eighty female
and male female, and mail that are married, that have
never been married, that have been married and are divorced

(15:06):
or whatever, and gay, straight like you name it. So
it's not just for people that have spouses and it's
a way to keep their marriage together. That's not it
at all. So you know, it's basically identifying the bad
habits of of what you've done and realizing that's right

(15:27):
and there, and there's people that were able to see
these behaviors in themselves and and get into the twelve
step program or have a therapist, you know, pursue them
in that direction. I mean, for me, I honestly can
say that I probably never would have acknowledged a problem
and I would have kept the same pattern of behavior

(15:48):
as if it wasn't for Jane. Because I'm just curious,
like when you say that, because you justify, like you
were able to justify in your brain during that six cycle. Yeah,
I was just in addictive behavior where I was just
everything and I just justified or validated or rationalized every
decision I made. I'm sure That's the other thing people
throw at you is if you wouldn't have gotten caught,

(16:08):
you never would have stopped doing this, You never would
have sought treatment. But it's similar to other addictions. If
you wouldn't have driven into that tree, you wouldn't have
gone into a a you know, like it seems like
rock Bottom has to be sure. And you know, even
when you think you're at bottom, you hit another bottom,
you know, and that's you know, we're Joanna and I

(16:30):
had to go through kind of throughout our journey over
the last few years. Well, I think one of the
questions that might come up as they'll say, okay, well
you got out of a a program three years ago, but
why are you only one year sober? Because of that?
The point I just made, it's it's just because I
got out, you're still trying to figure out I spent
what was I want to win in thirty So I

(16:53):
spent you know, obviously not twenty nine whole years, but
essentially twenty nine years thinking or living a different way,
and then all of a sudden you shock your system
and you say, no, you're actually supposed to think of
things this way. And so for people just to cold
not cold turkey, but flip the switch, you know immediately,

(17:13):
that's few and far between. So there's some people that do,
but it's it's you know, it's progress not perfection, which
anyone addictive program knows. That's a big mantra. So it's
you know, I had my stumbles along the way, so
just to get the timeline down the um when you
went away that was that was that was June of

(17:36):
s okay, so that's what we're coming up on. Three
years that was July July, sorry end of July, but yes,
and three years of him being in treatment but in
the essay program. But he is now one year sober.
Relapses along the way, yes, and you've had to no

(17:56):
no relapses, yes, but no sex outside the marriage Like no,
I'm not minimized cheating because we have other things in
our jananized discussion, our boundaries as cheating, but no sex
outside of the marriage. Just so people, I just want
people to be clear that there there wasn't any other
affairs since that moment. I just want is in this

(18:18):
scenario right, And it's different for different people. So yeah,
some people have, um, it's a circle plan, circle plans.
So in something he should not have done that was
in a circle that was very red like bad and
could have been awful and that was a you know,
massive relapse. Yes, it wasn't physical out of the marriage,

(18:41):
but it was something where the actions the action was
basically okay. So that was something classic addictive behavior. Not
being able to articulate my feelings and just internally blowing
the f up and just basically hit the f it
button and yeah, just basically happy that someone didn't show up. Yeah, basically,

(19:06):
so yeah, I should have the whole town instead. Oh dear, Yeah,
if we really want to know, Yeah, we've been through
some um, so that's why even I've been in a
program coming on three years on a year sober. So
if I here, let me see if I can put

(19:27):
it this way. So basically, if you put it in
a different addiction, he went to the bar and there
was a glass in front of him, and luckily you
showed up to stop him from drinking from the left. Okay,
I think I understand pretty much. Yeah, so yeah, I
mean again, we just want to be able to help

(19:51):
people with this, and I'm finally to a place where
I don't have it an overwhelming amount of shame, where
I'm able to acknowledge who I am. This is part
of me, and I'm comfortable with owning the fact that
I'm a sex addict and it it's still hard to

(20:14):
say that out loud. Um, but knowing that I can
possibly help other people, um, you know, maybe we can
save some more relationships. Speaking generally, what are some signs
of sex addiction. It doesn't have to be yours. So
a big part of the addiction in general is, you know, ritualization.

(20:41):
You plan something you you're used to. When you get home,
you watch porn, or you act out, or you sleep
with somebody, or you you start basing your whole day
around acting out, um, getting the drink per se um.
If you don't get it, you get frustrated, It ruins
your It just ruins your day if you can't have

(21:03):
it um. Or if maybe like your wife comes home
and you couldn't masturbate or something, or you couldn't do
look at your web and you get upset about that
that something breaks that that action for you. So those
are a few things just kind of surface level that
if you if you schedule your day around whatever the
behavior is, if you something gets in the way of

(21:25):
it and just ruins your day and you know you
rich realize it, so you plan your day and it's
like that's just part of your day. You can't get
through the day unless you do this, whatever the act is. UM.
So yeah, there there's a lot more that we can
go into detail about UM, which we'll get a c

(21:46):
SAT on here certified sex addiction therapists on here to
talk more about some of that, But those are the
the kind of surface level things for people to think about. Like, man,
maybe I am based on my day around this, and
maybe when I leave work, the first thing I think
about is watching porn, or the first thing to think
about is getting on Tinder and texting somebody or whatever
it is. You know, if that's like the first thing

(22:07):
you think about, you know, um, but that's where it's
hard to is for a long time in my life,
I just rationalized it, and I'm like, I'm a single
guy and I'm in the NFL, and I'm just I'm
just young and like that whole thing right that I
said in college, and then I said it when I
was in my twenties, and then you know, it's just

(22:28):
you just keep rationalizing somehow in your brain. Does the
athletic lifestyle Because some people would say, like we said before,
athletes are like this, Athletes are players, Athletes just have
no respect for women. But would you also say that, Um,
you wouldn't say that, of course, but you might say
that the athletic lifestyle breeds it's glorified, glorifies this behavior. Yeah,

(22:48):
it's it's definitely. I mean, the thing is, there's there's
plenty of guys that are outside the realm of the stereotype,
plenty of guys that are unbelievable family men, unbelievable husband's,
unbelieving of fathers, no like no issues or anything. But
that lifestyle is definitely glorified. You know, my my rookie

(23:11):
year in Jacksonville, I was the only rookie in the
tight end room and all the other guys were like
married too, like I had families and stuff, and they
wanted me, like to tell jokes in the meeting room.
I was like, I'm not a joke teller. But then
they're like, all right, we'll tell us like a story,
like what do you do this weekend? Because I was
on practice squad, so like when they had away games,
I'll just go out and like party and stuff. So

(23:33):
instead like they will come in they're like, all right,
tell us a story from this weekend, like what you do,
And that's what they wanted to hear, you know. So
it's like it's like it is, it's glorified. Just feeds it,
you know. So it definitely doesn't help when that stuff
is all around you, you know. Um, not blaming it,

(23:55):
but my but my addiction looking back and thinking back
on my timeline and my life actions. It accelerated and
flourished when I was in the NFL, probably too, because
like you had money, and you had you know, money, notoriety,
uh you know, a single and yeah, yeah, I feel

(24:18):
like you're on top of the world. Everyone knows you.
And a lot of those guys that they heard you
talking on this podcast today, they'd be like, what a wuss?
What happened to this guy? Cuck holded whatever you want
to say, right, they'd be like, what happened to him? Yeah?
Maybe some, but I think guys are are maybe realizing
there's more to life than football. Guys do grow up
at some point, they do. They do. And and I

(24:39):
really feel like with all like the negative publicity like
football is getting in the last few years, with the
health and everything, I think guys are starting to realize
that more, which is good for young men. Um. But yeah,
I'm sure there's some guys that if they heard me
say this, they're like, come on, dude, no, like you're
just having a good time, you know. I look back
and I was I was a full blown addict, there's

(25:01):
no question about it. I think people names I have
a hard time differentiating a cheater verse an addict. So
I think that's where it's like, you know, people said, like, well,
my husband's cheated on me twice, does that make them
a sex addict? And so I think that's like one
of the hardest lines too to cross, because I mean,

(25:21):
what's how do you really differentiate the two when you
know a husband has cheated twice? Or that's what that's
going to be another great question for people to ask.
And that's a great one to ask, honey, Um, you
know that that's the thing too, where you know, you
don't want people to someone makes a mistake and all

(25:42):
of a sudden they're like, you're an addict or are
you this you need to do? But if it if
it's happened a couple of times, go talk to a therapist,
find out find out what, like where this stuff comes from?
Why did you decide to cheat? Is it just because?
And sometimes it is sometimes you're just in a hole

(26:04):
there all there, there are those people, but it usually
steps from something in the childhood. Yeah, you know, it
could very well be just your na hole. But because
it's also narcissistic personality disort of which we have an
email about two. But like those people tend to only
think of themselves, no empathy for the other people in
their lives, and so that wouldn't necessarily be sex addiction,

(26:25):
but it is a disorder of some sort, I hope. Anyway,
is it true that the the people are just somewhere just
a holes or is it all some sort of I
think so. I think some people are just I mean, yeah,
I feel like it has to come from somewhere. Everything
has to come from somewhere, right, But some people just
are Some people just don't care about other people, as
we see in the world in the news every day.

(26:46):
I mean, there's one thing too, I wanted is it
the right dbuke like debunk debunk debunk rebuke. It's a rebuke,
not one of the things I want to do. Bunk
is or review whatever is um people will say, because
I'm working on something right now around sex addiction with

(27:08):
a girlfriend of mine, and the guy in the meeting said, wait,
so does that mean that your husband just wants to
have sex with you all the time? Like that's that's
something that also comes up to when when you say
sex addiction, because again people don't really understand, and I'm like, no,
it's could that be a type of sex addiction. I'll
let my answer that since he knows more. I know.
There's sexual intimacy, which or sexual intorexia, which is which

(27:32):
is like what I have, which is yeah, um, where
you don't want to sleep with your wife, and so
it's it's not not that you don't want to sleep
with your wife, but it's it's it's just there's something
that goes on, Like for for me, it's it was
just a level of intimacy, and again, intimacy and love
and sex not correlating. So for me, it was like
when I felt love and intimacy, I was avoiding. I

(27:53):
was like sexually intorectic, Like I didn't want it because
it just with me with her, because I was intimate
and I loved her. So I was like, why do
I Why would I've never had sex with somebody that
I love and I'm intimate with? Why would I do that? Now?
You know? So, is is there something just like have
a lot or no? Yeah? Yeah, sure, Um, I mean

(28:13):
there's there's plenty of guys that are in programmed that
they aren't avoidance or interrectic when it comes to sexually
and having sex with their partners. Um, I'm aware of
a married couple. I don't say how, but he needs
it every day ago day. And so she just was like, Okay,
that's just how he is and that's fine. But that
seems like a form of a form of addiction, some

(28:34):
sort of an interesting disorder where it has to happen
every day or he gets really um upset. Yeah, I
mean it's what that would be interesting because it's like, well,
he's not stepping out his wife, you know, and he's
not doing other behaviors that you know, maybe outside the
boundaries of their relationship. So I mean, I can't really
say that's an addiction. It's just something that he just

(28:55):
you know, there is a reason behind it, something mentally
that he makes in his head that he needs it, right,
he doesn't really Actually he's not gonna die if he
doesn't happen, And that's a whole that's that is an
addictive mindset, like if I don't have this, I'm going
to die. Like you over you're exaggerating, You're like, no,
I can't. My day is ruined. Everything sucks, like no,
just you just blow up. So you know, it's maybe

(29:20):
it's some addictive pattern in his in his brain, but
he's not breaking any boundaries. It's not really a necesarily
a bad thing, right, And if she's okay with it,
then that's just them. Do you guys have any questions
around any of this though? Email us at Janda Kramer
I heart media dot com and hopefully we'll be able
to get someone on here that can help answer questions.
If you or your spouse or anyone you know needs

(29:41):
um any advice or tips from a specialized c SAT
and if you have just any questions or anything around it.
One more question, people you're in group with, would you
say that all or most are victims of abuse? Interesting
question a lot, And so I went to like my

(30:06):
when I was in treatment with all the there's a
bunch of guyslaws in treatment with and like my individual
therapist per se, you're like broken off into groups. And
I after being there a couple of weeks, I went
and met with my therapist there and I asked her,
I was like, I feel a lot of guilt and
shame because like I feel like my story is not

(30:29):
as bad as others that I hear, like, it makes
sense when somebody sexually abused and you hear some of
these stories, and I'm just like holy, like oh my god,
and I'm like I would feel bad. I'm like, I don't.
What's like it took me a long time to get
through because I'm like I would even sounds like, what's

(30:51):
my excuse? Am I just a piece of dang? Like?
Am I am? I really just a bad person? I
wasn't abused, and that's a thing, Like I had a
great childhood, but it's you know, for still reasons that happened.
This is just where my brain took me. This is
how it manifested. And so a lot of a lot

(31:13):
of people are victims of abuse, definitely, and but you
don't have to be have this and that that's taken me.
That's been one of the biggest things that's taken me
a long time to accept that, Okay, I'm not just
a bad person, you know. But but it's hard when
you hear these stories. I'm like, do I do I
belong here? You know? So it's yeah, it's you know,

(31:40):
it's hard, and but but then all it takes is
it takes one person that that speaks or shares, and
you're like, you feel like you're speaking or sharing. You're like,
that's my story. And that's how you start to get
close with certain guys in program. And again, anyone in
twelve step program will understand that, Like you just start
hearing people share because you go to the same meetings

(32:00):
at the same time, at the same day each week,
and you learn these people and you start to get
closer because you're like, man, we have the same story.
Let's go grab breakfast, let's talk about this. You know,
I have a question in any twelve step program, wouldn't
it be that no one's pain is more important? And

(32:20):
I'm using quotes than someone else's pain that I hate
hearing you say, like, am I just a piece of beep?
Because it's like your pain is real. Whatever you were
trying to fill is just as real. It may be
slightly less tragic. I always say, you can never measure
someone's pain. No, you can't, but it's and it's that's
the thing. No one measures each other's pain. You just

(32:42):
measure your own. That's what it is. You're like because
you put yourself in their shoes. Because people share so
vulnerably in these meetings that you're like, oh my gosh,
if I went through that, and then you start to
minimize your story and you're like, why am I so
left up? If this is all I went through? But again,

(33:02):
you don't measure each other's pain, but you do it
to yourself. Do they help you not do that? Yeah?
And that that's where you know, I'm amazed. I am
honestly amazed by people that have gotten sober just by
going to meetings, because I don't I can't imagine not

(33:24):
kiding said, we're not having gone to an impatient treatment
facility only because you I mean, you dig deep into
your into your you know, your skeletons deep. The one
thing though, that they got to work on those in
patient treatments is the reality of when you get out.
Oh my, yeah he got out of how many days

(33:46):
of seventy days? It was sixty sixty days. I was
in seventy that I didn't see Jolie and I was
here in l A doing dancing with stars, um, because
I need did an escape. Um. But yeah, she was
she was young. But I remember, you know, I didn't
and I didn't answer. I think I only answered one

(34:08):
of his calls and treatment because I just didn't want
to talk to him, but I read every single letter
that he wrote me. He read a letter and I
would wait at three o'clock for the mailman to come.
I didn't want to talk to him, but I wanted
to read his letters. I wrote her letter every day.
But I think they didn't properly prepare him for when
he got out because I was still reeling sure, I

(34:31):
was still upset. Because he comes out He's like, I'm
basically healed, and I'm like, well, I'm a single mom
right now. I'm like, this isn't you know? So I
think that was that was the one knock that I
have on that I do too and me and guys
that there's only one guy really that I'm still stay
in touch with from from treatment, but that was our

(34:53):
mine of his big only knock too, was like we
get out and it's like they build you up when
you're in there because there's just so much shame around
all this. There's so much, I mean, it's crazy, and
so they build you up. So like when you get
into the world, you feel like you belong and that
you're you're a person, you can do this, But then

(35:13):
you come to an angry spouse who just want to
beat you down, understandably so, rightfully so. And then we
come out like, you can't talk to me like that,
I have boundaries, and they're like if your boundaries you mother,
you know. So it's like that whole thing, Um is
it just so? There's something? Oh man, that was We

(35:37):
can laugh now, but excuse me, you have abound. So
I was like, I have not. You cannot talk to
this way. Well, I'm really proud of you for sharing Markats.
How did your parents find out? Was it honest? Weekly?
Did you tell them before you went? No? I called
them and told them my mom, I called your parents,

(35:58):
or you called I found out? I called his parents, yeah,
because I was really close with your dad at the time,
and I was just like shell shocked, and I didn't
know who else do. I didn't want to call my parents,
I didn't know who to call, and I was like,
I want to talk to your dad. So I called

(36:18):
and then his mom. I got home the next day,
I said I don't want him in the house, and
I threw all of his clothes out on the front
porch like a good old, good old movie scene, and
his mom came and got him and then what two
days later you were in treatment? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, my
mom flew down to be around, and then too, a

(36:39):
few days later, I drove during myself the treatment. Um
so that was that's hard too, because like my parents
didn't really understand and like you said, you asked about
the abuse. My that's people's first reaction. So my parents
are like, did you get abused by somebody? And we
don't know, like eel us, like it was it? Who

(37:01):
was it? You know, they started rattling off names like
this was it that? Like tell us right now, like
we're ready to go off because they seem a little weird.
So I was like no, no, no, you know, so
yeah it's and you know even now all like talk

(37:24):
to like my buddies back East or something and say
I'm talking to him on the phone and they're like, oh,
you know, I'll call them. They're on there. Right in
from work. I got to meeting this like first thing
in the morning out here in l A. And they're like, dude,
it's like six third year. Time were you doing that?
I was like, I'm going to a meeting or like
what meeting? And I still like have hesitation. I'm about

(37:46):
I'm about like fifty. When I say I'm going to
a Twelfth Step meeting, I'm not. And they all know,
but it's like, I don't know, Well, even like you
went from like you and your men's or what did
he say, like you're a sex satic. No, he's kind
of like he said, it's very a little shameful way saying.
He's like, oh, you're going to your sex sex addic meeting.
He's like, what do you guys? You just talk about

(38:08):
like sex addiction stuff more than that. But sure, but
the way of diminishing it right, So yeah, so yeah, exactly.
So you know, I want to get to a place where,
well I think I'm at that place where I am.
I'm talking about it, so I better be at that
place to own it more. It's a very little shame

(38:29):
on an a a meeting. Now, it's taken I think
a long time for that to exist. So I think
you speaking out could could help lessen the shame. That's
that's the goal. Yeah, And you know, I think where
you want to go with us too, and to be
able to go out and speak on it and be
you know, to not make it be such a a

(38:50):
stigma and an excuse a place in an excuse, and unfortunately,
it's still gonna be a curtain that people use that
are um, you know, have high noted notoriety and get
themselves into situations and oh, I'm a sex addict and
now I'm okay and I understand and I cheated. How
about to go to sex addiction therapy and then we'll

(39:12):
be okay, all right, right, Like you want to kick
me out of the company, but well you let me
just go get treat me. Now this is a disorder,
Like you can't fire me because you know, so there's
going to be those people that exploit it. But you know,
there's stuff everywhere that people exploit. So I'm just here
to well, I'm really proud of you, and I'm proud
of where this can go for you and for the

(39:32):
people that you're gonna help along the way. I appreciate that, honey,
and I want to say that I'm proud of you
for your end and being willing to be an advocate
as a spouse who is with somebody in this program,
and think about the women or men that you can help,
you know, as the spouse to this too and help

(39:53):
them understand things you know. I know you're still understanding things,
but you've a long way. But so many were about
to make the effort to understand it would just by
oh for sure, for sure, which is why I'm like, guys,
why can't I just be sarcastic sometimes? But then they

(40:13):
just get on me, you know. But I'm really proud
of you, babe. If any any of you guys have
questions though, we'd love to bring you know, someone on
to help you if you have any questions your marriage
or your spouse. That was what I was going to
ask you, and I'm sorry to bring this on you
guys live. You're about to announce what we're doing, and
I would like to have an expert at that in

(40:37):
addition to the expert we're gonna So I'm getting ahead
of myself because I should. I was like, because we
were thinking about maybe having a c sat um therapists
may become on the show, but you're saying maybe on
the live. Look, let's dive in head first. We're doing
this event. You explain what we're doing. OK, we are
doing a live Thrive Market podcast. So bye and I

(40:59):
who are cordially inviting you to wind down with us
on April second, So thanks to Thrive Market, it's from
six to eight pm at the I Heart Radio Performance
Studio in Burbank experience the wind Down podcast live in
an exclusive acoustic performance by Mike. Now I'm just kidding.
We'll have snacks. I'm like, I don't see wine. We'll

(41:19):
have snacks and we would love to meet as many
of you as possible. And by the way, that's right, sorry,
And by the way, if you aren't in l A,
we have an information later in the show about how
you can see us closer to where you are. So
you guys again April second, from six to eight I
Heart Radio Performance Studio and Burbank. We're so excited. How
do they get so thrive market dot com slash Joanna

(41:41):
and what's really cool like when you go there, it's
very easy to navigate and sign up to enter to
get to come. Amazing. And so what I'm thinking is
Dr jen Man's going to come, which I think she'll
have some really good input. Christie Morrell who was on
last week or week before to talk about nutrition and
health and eating issues, which look it's all sort of

(42:02):
in the same pile. And then you want to do
is have sort of an intimacy expert, so it can
touch on this but also people's any questions they have
about their relationships and the importance of intimacy and intimacy
being handled correctly. And then we'll have like a celebrity
guest for fun. It's not so pumped. It's gonna be

(42:23):
so much about April second, it's Thrive Market dot com
slash Jamna April twod six to eight here in Burbank, California. Oh,
it's gonna be fun. I'm excited. So we are going
to have Joe Piazza on. Her podcast is called Committed UM.
It's available wherever you're listening to podcasts, and she's awesome
UM again, talks about relationships. I'm super excited to talk

(42:44):
to her. But before we talk to Joe, I wanna
tell you about brook lynnon. So Michael and I obviously
like you, as you guys know, we're moving to Nashville.
We're super excited. We're setting up the guest rooms right
now in our master bedroom and we're just like loving
Brooklyn in in our master right now. So that's why
every single room in our house is going to have

(43:05):
Brooklyn and sheets. So they make five star hotel quality
sheets more affordable and easy to order their luxury sheets
without the luxury markup, which is amazing because if you
didn't know, most bedding is marked up as much as
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(43:28):
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(43:50):
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really the best sheets of We have one set of
Brooklyn Brooklyn and sheets, and I can always tell the
second I get into them that we got around of
Brooklyn and again because the other ones just don't measure up,

(44:12):
not at all. Real fast, before we talk to Joe,
I want to tell you guys about Sunbird. So I
have a really hard time shopping for perfumes. I feel
like it's frustrating to have to commit to the big
you know, Chanel bottle. That's like, it's frustrating, and what
if I don't really like it or I really want
to commit to it. But this is what I love

(44:32):
about Sunbird. So basically they send you UM a sample
size of whatever sent you like. So after you take
a quiz online, they'll send you something that is like that. UM.
You can get anything from tom Ford, Gucci, Versacci. They
basically just keep you smelling good month after month. The
bottle last UM for me last an entire month UM,

(44:54):
which is really really really great. And then there's more
than fourty designer brands you can choose from, Like I said,
Product him Forward for Saccy Delcha and Gabanna Gucci UM
a hundred and twenty sprays in each bottle. Again, that's
a thirty days supply. So I kind of love it
UM and it's great because then you don't have to
commit to the entire bottle and it's a lot cheaper.

(45:15):
So with this an exclusive offered just for our listeners,
you can get fifty percent off your first month today.
That's only seven fifty for your first fragrance. So you
go to Center dot com slash Janna and use my
promo code Janna for off your first month. Again. That's
centered sc nt bird dot com slash Janna for you
to try your first perfumer cologne for just seven fifty.

(45:35):
Sign on and smell amazing. And also what I love
about it too is when I travel, I don't like
to carry my big perfume bottle because it gets taken
away and I get really angry. It's like, do you
know how much I spent on that perfume? So honestly,
now I just use sent ber and it's really easy
and it's just um. You put it in your gym bag,
in your purse, whatever, and you just pop it out

(45:55):
of the thing and then put the new one in
after the month that you twisted spray super okay. So
we have Joe Piazza on the phone. Joe, I'm here,
Hey girls, Jan and Mike, Hey, how you just doing good.
How are you. I'm good. I'm good. I'm so glad
we can make their work. I know us too. We're
super pumped, um, and we'd love to just get right

(46:16):
on in it. Do it. Let's just do it, just
do it. Let's just be committed to this. We are committed.
So you have obviously you have your podcast called Committed,
and then you also, um, you have a book out
called how to Be Married? I do, yeah, I'm committed
to Committed kind of came out of how to be Married?

(46:39):
So how long have you been married for? I've finally
been married at all. It's funny because when you write
a book like that, people are like, oh, you must
be a married duckport and I'm like, no, I wrote
the book because I have no idea what the hell
I'm doing. Defin where I write it, that's amazing, amazing.
So what did you learn then? Well, so I got
married on the later side, right like I were thirty

(47:00):
when I got married. My husband was forty one, and
I had no idea how to how to be a wife.
I had no idea how to do this. So I
was a traveled at it at the time and traveled
around the world asking different men and women advice, and
I'm like, how do you do this? How are you
actually someone's wife? How do you actually live in the
same house and make a marriage work? And it was awesome.

(47:22):
I visited thirteen countries on six continents in the course
of a year, um in my first year of marriage.
And what we realized was it was the stories from
people that teach you how to be married. And you know,
as long as humans have been humans that have been
getting married, we've learned how to do this because people
passed down these centeporal histories and these stories. Right, But

(47:44):
we don't do that anymore. We don't talk about marriage
except to brad like we have brags on Instagram, but
we don't talk about the nitty gritty, bush hard parts
of the marriage that our actual real things that can
help us get through it. Well we do, I know
to there, you're right, You're right there. Joe's either like
the glorified aspect on Instagram or it's when you're with

(48:05):
your friends. It's like more people are just bitching about
their spouse than exactly. So it's like one extreme of
the other, like no between, there's no way between. It's
I mean, you're right, it's like Instagram like hashtag date night,
or you're just like bitching a moment moaning. You don't
actually actually have real conversations about what a marriage is like.
And so you know, I travel around the world. I

(48:26):
interview women from really fancy women in Paris who tell
me to buy all of this expensive ingerie and I'm like, sure,
I'll probably do it, and then I probably didn't do it.
And uh, Orthodox Gewis women in Jerusalem, polygamous tribes in
Tanzania and Kenya, which were the most fascinating, which made
me believe that I would totally be cool with Nick

(48:48):
bringing a second wife on board if she wants to
help me with the childcare here not to do it
in But one of our most listen to episodes ever
was with the Sister Wives. It was so fascinating. Yeah,
I get it. I mean what we learned is that
it was all about economies of scale, right, and it
was it was women kind of taking over control in

(49:10):
these relationships, but men were secondary and women are like,
all right, this is how we're dividing up all of
the crazy amount of labor we have to do. Uh,
if we can't get all done, we're gonna bring another
wife into this situation and the guy is just over
there sitting under a palm tree. It's crazy. What was
the like, what was the streamline between both the men
and women that you saw that was common when when
you got the stories? Was ariend? Was there any constant

(49:36):
through all of this? It's one of the one of
the things I learned was I mean, it is communication, right,
Everyone's like, have better communication, have better communications, and then
on the slip side of that, no one knows how
to communicate, so it's having an it's all starting out
by having better communication about communication. But the streamline, since
we're in so many different countries where Americans really met,

(49:59):
it all up us and where it all goes to
hell for us is that we have these expectations going
into the marriage that people in other countries don't tend
to have, and we put so much weight on a marriage.
So we're like, all right, we're getting married. That person
is going to be my schoolmate, they're gonna be my
best friend, they're gonna be the person I worked out with,
I took with, I have the best sect of my
life with. They're gonna be my shrink. And in other countries,
they're like you just you marry your husband or your

(50:21):
wife and they're your husband or wife and that's their
role and you don't accept them to solve all of
your problems. But in the States, we do. We have
this soulmate problem and I think it's the romantic comedy
problem what it is. And then you get married you
realize that person is in all those things and your
expectations are just crushed and your miserable. Is there a
country that you witness that's that's doing it right or

(50:42):
at least has it close to, you know, not perfection,
but just more consistent than America. Well, it's I mean,
it's just all of Northern Europe get more things right
than we do. So we're talking Sweden, Denmark one, because
they just have equality between the sex, does a lot
more than we do. Um and do they have a

(51:04):
lot more of a law as fare stattitude towards marriage.
They get divorced, it's probably about the same rate that
we do, but they don't put all of this pressure
on it. Divorce doesn't make or break you. There's not
a big stigma. You can get divorced online for about
thirty nine dollars people celebrate their divorced adversary. Um, it's
just they don't put all of this weight on a

(51:25):
marriage and all of the societal pressure and because they
have a social spacetynt a marriage is also not going
to make or break them financially. Do other cultures or
other countries believe in therapy, like there's are they or
is it just America that we just everyone goes therapists? No? No, no, no, no,
I mean I thought so many other cultures depend on

(51:46):
therapy in all in all the kinds of forms too, right,
So therapy could mean talking to one your sister wife,
or talking to your mother in law, or or having
actual a real meaningful conversations with your friends. How are you?
Guys can probably see my baby right now, he's gonna
calm down. And but I'm not misdrabbing it right now. Um,

(52:13):
but yeah, I mean I think other countries actually have less,
and particularly particularly other European countries which are a lot
more civilized than we are, tend to have less. Miss
stigma on therapy. Uh, and it was great. My husband
and I started going to therapy before we got married.
We still got a therapy once every six months and
I think it's the one good thing we've done for
our marriage that's getting getting a lot of childcare. Yeah,

(52:37):
so your husband, Nick, obviously is you know, is a
huge part of this. So what's one thing that you
guys both think that you guys are doing right? And
what's one thing that you guys both feel like you
have to work on. We have a thousand things to
work on. Still start with what we're doing right. Um,
we travel apart and I got this advice from a
lot of women in different countries. We have completely separate

(52:59):
vacations where he'll go off with his buddies for a
week and go camping, and I'll go with my girlfriends
and go to a spa or I did a road
trip across the country with one of my friends. And
it allows us to be apart so we can come
back and like each other again. And I think that's huge.
And I got a lot of criticism from it from
a lot of my American friends are like, how would
you go on some replications? Is something wrong? And I'm like, no,

(53:20):
we shouldn't see together all the time. It's exhausting and
we're not interesting to each other if we're together all
the time. The French women really stressed that you ad
this into the fancy laundry again, which is just way
too expensive. You can get a really cute brought target.
We don't need to spend four um. But they're like,
make sure you have some mystery in your marriage and
that means spending time apart. You don't need to be

(53:41):
together all the time. Um. And also, I mean there's
so many things we're still trying to work on. We're
I really think that having a kid blew up our marriage.
We're married for a year and then I got pregnant
and we're still trying to figure out and I'm pregnant
again and thank you, and we're still trying to figure
out how to navigate the world as husband and wife

(54:03):
and parents. And I think that you're wanting to you know,
it's like you're living life and that's the together and
with the craziness and sometimes you know, IM gonna have
obviously we have our our four month old and then
our three year old, but you know it's it's crazy
and it's like Jolie screaming, the baby's crying, and you
know we're trying to figure out something. It's just you

(54:23):
kind of look and those moments, I'm like, I almost
love those moments because that's you're just like you're living
you know, you're living in exactly. I mean, it's like
it's real life and trying to figure out how the
hell this marriage thing works, which in the chaos, right,
and so we're just trying to we're trying to figure
that out and I'll just figure out who the hell
we want to be when we grow up. Like now,
I'm I'm close to the forty next with mid forties,

(54:46):
and we're like, what are we doing? What do we
want to do with the rest of our lives? And
that thinks a lot of communications. So I actually think
we need to double down on our therapy. I love that.
Where can I listeners find new bed so minute podcast
is on the app, Apple podcast or wherever you get
your podcast. Um, and I'm on Instagram at Joe piaf

(55:07):
author and dot com. Awesome. Well you're the best and
we were looking forward to being on your podcast too. Yeah,
I can't wait. Thanks Joe by Joe by guys. Okay,
so Joe is really sweet. By the way, I just
want to get into We got a lot of emails
about the whole weekday. Yeah, so many emails about that. Um,

(55:31):
but now there's like a whole new thing too called
snow plowing snowplot parents. But what do you have any
thoughts that came up from what we talked about last week?
Um No, I think that the timing of this the
whole kind of snow plowing concept, which by definition is
a person who constantly forces obstacles out of their kids paths.
So basically, a recent pulled by The New York Times

(55:53):
and Morning Console found that three quarters of parents of
children between the ages of eighteen, guys, this isn't three
and five eight teen, and so let me just say again, eighteen,
So when your child is graduating adult and when some
people are married with kids, had made their children appointments

(56:15):
for doctor visits, haircuts, and all their kids bosses if
their child was having an issue at work. Times reported
so many issues with this. Look. Let me let me
say this. I had an interesting thought when we were
talking off the mic that Amy and Mark you guys
kind of started bringing up. I wonder because, like you

(56:35):
started saying, Mark, a lot of this is like parent
driven because they want to brag or they want to
say that their kid has this job, or the kid
made this team, or they got this whatever, they got
into this school, they got this trophy, they got this accolade.
I wonder if it's none, I wonder. I have to
assume that it's because of the social media outbreak. Actually,

(56:56):
our parents being the major generation on like Facebook nowadays,
the older generation are the ones that use that. They
want that so they can post that stuff. That's so
funny because what else are they posting. They're not putting
there these they're in their late forties and their fifties.
What are they posting? What are they posting about themselves?

(57:18):
What are our parents posting about themselves? Nothing? Maybe a
trip they go on. What's the thing that they can
post about their kids and what they're doing? Other than that,
they wouldn't have anything to post on because they probably
have the same job they've had for the last thirty years,
like both of my parents. Because it's like their Instagram,
it's like that, they're like, they're it's there. It's their
material to post about is your kids, which we get

(57:38):
because we love our kids and we love posts stuff
about them. But when I just it makes it just
kind of makes sense to me why this is happening now,
but it's so out of control. Like the only word
that comes to mind when I saw this article was
like how embarrassing. Like you imagine if you're eighteen years old, nineteen,

(57:59):
maybe in your twenties, I got your first real job
and like something goes awry and your mommy calls your ball,
I would fire that person. I would fire them, But
it's like what goes on and then I get it.
I can see mommy's making their twenties. Something's haircut and

(58:19):
there was even like making sure they didn't have sauce
or too much spice on their food, and they're like
in their twenties. I mean, look again, I would do
anything for my child, but when my daughters eighteen years old,
I'm going to go into the whole thing. Honey. I
moved to New York when I was eighteen on my own,
and then like living on my own in Los Angeles
at nineteen, like freaking grow up. It's different with your son,

(58:47):
and it will be different with your son time out.
That is so true because his mother enables yes and
mine does too. Yes, they go make a I for yourself.
When Jay's is twenty two and says Mommy, I don't
feel good. You're gonna run over there with soup and PDA. Like,
my god, you're so right. It's just what it is.

(59:09):
You're so right, You're so right. But why is that?
That's a great question and I don't know that. But
my wife rolls her eyes because we go visit my parents.
She makes off my favorite food. Right. But I can
play the other side because daddy's little girl. Like when
I am like, oh, yeah, I need help with him,
I will run while Jane is running to Jay's. I

(59:31):
will run to Jolie because I'll be like, James, suck
it up, rub some dirt on it. You'll be like, meanwhile,
be like, Hi, this is um Mrs Causton. I'm calling
on behalf of Jay's. You know, man, you mean your
twenty seven year old son. Yes, he's sick right now
with the fever. He can't come in. So I have
a question for you guys, because I have my own
opinion on this and I would love to hear what
you say. So let's say let's say twenty three out

(59:51):
of college. Three out of college, and your kids hard worker,
good grades at home, even home, they want you to
help them pay for their apartment. They got a job,
doesn't pay much though, but it's a good job. Would
you help support them, Yeah, because because the rest are there,

(01:00:12):
they are, they are trying, they're doing what they can.
And if you're showing me that, you're showing you're giving
that effort. Absolutely. Having said that, Michael and I did
just get into an argument because he said he wanted
to buy Julia Carr and I said, no, you're not
buying her. We are not buying her a car. And
he looked at you're rolling r eyes right now at me,
which when she's sixteen. I was like, absolutely not. And

(01:00:33):
He's like why And I was like, because I worked
my butt off as a waitress to get my aleros.
Doesn't matter. I still have made my least payments. It's
all going to be self driving cars anyway. True. True,
But I'm just saying, like, that's like the family truckster,
like the hand me down totally. And here's the thing,
I have no problem again, like I would help her

(01:00:54):
with the payments if she was working, if she was,
but I would never buy her a new car, buying
her or a use car and say she needs to
help pay for those payments. Jason, I will buy him
and Mercedes. He will have the brand new jeep. Why
is that? Why are we so hard on the same gender?
That's a really good question. I don't know, you know what,

(01:01:17):
I would love to maybe get your mom on the
show to ask her, like why, because I'm sure she
only did that for you and not for for Tara. Yeah,
my dad was harder on me. Okay, so my my
dad was hard on my brother too, And so is
that is that? Why? Then? Is it because the delves

(01:01:39):
in our same sex children and that's why? Or no?
Is it because we we see them being so hard
on so like he's going to be harder on Jason
as with Jolie. I'm going to be harder on Jolie
than you know, than he is. So is it maybe?
Is that it? Then? I don't think so, because I
think even if if, if you were raising these kids
by yourself and be the exact same dynamic, really I
think so interesting, it's interesting. I'm curious to know what

(01:02:02):
you guys think. Janna Cremant, I heart media dot com,
But that is really what's wrong with my parents? Went
like have these with me on like a seven thousand
dollar honey, I'm on the car's all. I'm gonna we're
gonna buy Julie a car. It's gonna be a beater, honey.
I'm just saying I want her to help. That's yeah,

(01:02:24):
she can have a job. Yeah she's not if she's
got an extra curricular activities that don't allow her to
have a job. I'm just saying with this whole snowplow thing,
I'm just not going to be a hundred percent like
here is your car. Like if she's if she's doing
extracurricular activities, you're doing something you shouldn't have a job.
But she's in like clubs or whatever. It maybe not
if she just comes home from school and goes to

(01:02:45):
a room sitting on the phone talking to her friends
here and says, Mommy, I want to call Yeah. And
here's what I'll say. What my grandpa did with my
brother was the best example, and this is what I
would do. I would say, you have to you guys,
just have it all figured out. I would say, come on, someone,
attack Mike for being made me right there. Um, when
my my my brother paid for the car payments and

(01:03:10):
my grandpa kept the checks and the money, and when
the car was paid off. He gave him. And that
is what I would do because you you, you grew
up my grandamatin that's he's you know, he was my everything.
Like love him. He's my grandpa that watches me every day.
I know that with every part of me. That is

(01:03:32):
what I would do. As I would say, Joel, you
need to pay for this car. Probably I was like, you,
you will pay for this car. But at the end
of it, I will give her all of the money
because she worked really hard going to zero idea yea
zero idea. And I think whatever he wanted and I
don't know what to use it on, but that was

(01:03:53):
the greatest example that I could. That's showed hard work,
that he paid for his commitment and his work his word.
That's that's really and we should do that. And I
will say on on snow plowing. So when we moved
back to Tennessee, eventually, I want to just for front
for me, like I never wanted to get into coaching,
but I would love to coach high school. I think

(01:04:14):
it'd be a lot of fun and coach high school football.
And again, call me old fashioned, I dare apparent to
come talk to me about their son or I guess
I gotta be political politically correct, or daughter playing football,
their child playing football. I dare a parent to come
talk to me. I can't wait for that. I might

(01:04:36):
come home without being a coach anymore. I might get fired,
but I will let it be known that this is
not going to fly. I relish. I hope that happens.
I can't wait. I can't wait. That's you. You hear
nuggets like that or about Grandpa Martin in person. Jane
and Michael have a big announcement right now. If you're

(01:04:59):
in New York, New York, Boston, Alexander of Virginia, listen
up by guys, really a big announcement. We're taking wine
Down on the road for a Wine Down podcast tour,
live tour. We're going on the road May sixteenth, birch Mere, Alexandria, Virginia.

(01:05:21):
May seventy seven, Sony Hall, New York, New York, May eighteenth,
the Wilburg, Boston, Massachusetts. The pre sale starts March at
Jana Kramer dot com. You guys, so we're gonna be
talking about all this stuff. We might even bring some

(01:05:42):
of you guys up. It's going to be interact, come
be prepared to to talk. We might pull you up. Yeah,
but we really really want you guys to come see us. Um,
so please pre sale starts March to six tomorrow at
Jana Kramer dot com. And guys, I'm doing it again
my new single, Beautiful Eyes. We'll be available everywhere on Friday,

(01:06:05):
March nine. For more information, go to Jane Kramer dot com.
We're super pumped. Will we be able to hear your
new song on April two here in l A. And
will these guys be able to hear it when they
show up at your show? So another yes. So for
everyone who goes to the Wine Down Podcast tour mark
May sixteen and on April twod I'm going to do

(01:06:25):
a performance, um, and you'll be able to hear Beautiful Eyes,
my new single, and a few other songs. So it's
only It's going to be a great intimate night with
Mike and Mike. Thanks. Thanks guys, and you should mention
the NAPA Valley wine train. Yes please, and Amy, I
would like for you to many so many things. I'm excited.
I know this is this is good. Um, this is

(01:06:47):
probably one of my most favorite exciting ones. Go ahead,
So here's one more opportunity to see Janna and Mike.
If you are in the Bay Area, northern California for
even southern take a trip to Napa. So on April six,
we are going on the Napa Valley Wine Train, which
is so awesome. It's basically this beautiful train, four course

(01:07:08):
gourmet meal, uh, drinking wine. We're gonna stop at the
Mondavi Winery. You're gonna be with jan and Mike, You're
gonna be with a ton of people from The Bachelor,
even Tanya rad from Ryan Seacrest Morning Show. And this
one special because every penny we raise will go to
the Red Cross. So you go to if only dot
com just search Janna and it'll come up, and we

(01:07:29):
are covering all the costs so that every penny you donate,
let's also right to the Red Cross, and it is
to prepare California for earthquakes. That's huge. Thank you Amy
for doing that. April second, April six today, sixteen, seventeen eighteen.
If you're on the East coast, go to Janet Kramer
dot com for all the info. Yeah, she'll she'll help

(01:07:52):
you out. Um you guys, big thank you to Brooklyn
and get temper sent off your first order and for
shipping with promo co Janet at Brooklyn and dot com.
That's Brooklyn and bur Okay l I N E N
dot Com promo code Janna center off your first month today.
That's only seven fifty for your first fragrance. Go to
Sember dot com slash Janna and use the coat Janna
for off your first month. I think that's a show, guys,

(01:08:15):
you want to do. Earlier, Marissa says she found out
her husband as a narcissist. I just love that the title.
You found out your husbands and narcissist? I mean, did
you not know? Like well, she'started going to therapy and
learned that her husband is NARCISSI statistic personality disorder. If
you don't know what you're looking for, that's true. Learning

(01:08:36):
about this has been so free and getting trapping all
at once. He doesn't have empathy and tough times. He
has a public face and a private face, and the
private face is not pretty. He has hotty behaviors. What
I haven't looked that one up? Yeah, high horse, that's
end close on the think that's true. Yeah, we've been
going to marriage counseling, but I just feel nothing is

(01:08:57):
coming of it, and he doesn't believe anything I say
is true. I consider staying married because, like Janna, I
have always felt my purpose in life is to be
a mom and I want that so badly. But wouldn't
that make me a bad mom by having children with
somebody like this? Oh and they don't have kids later?
Time out, time out? I mean depends how old she is.

(01:09:21):
I mean I get to question that with you, you know,
and be like, all right, well it's gonna take me
this long to find somebody else. What many would have
said to Joanna later in her situation. But you acknowledge,
you edit a problem and you saw it help. This
guy's not seeking help. Here's the thing. If your husband's
not seeking help, then yes, my advice is to not
have children with something someone that's not wanting to get help,

(01:09:44):
is my personal opinion. You have to follow your heart, though,
if you think that it hasn't hasn't in him to change.
Sometimes guys just take a longer road to get there.
Narcissism is tough to break. Hoff just from my experience,
are just therapy and counseling and knowing a lot of

(01:10:07):
different guys and this it's a beast. I mean it's
it's sure, it's basically telling someone to believe in a
whole different reality. But then how do they get help? Then, So,
if you heavily research narcissism, which I suggest anyone with
a narcissist in there, I know we've talked about it before,

(01:10:28):
almost impossible to quote cure. If the person is so
devoted to working on it, they can improve. But that's
if if you know, we're we got five sentences here,
So I don't want to like, well, and you have
to see remember remember the narcissist expert that came on.
If there's like if you have all eight, so I

(01:10:49):
would go through the checklist and see how many he has.
Go go to the checklist. This is the check narciss checklist,
and see he's got all eight. That's gonna be a
tough one to break. That people use loosely when that's
more inaccurate. If it's actually legit, then I'm concerned. Yeah,
if there's just if there's there's a different great point.
I mean, there's a huge difference between narcissistic tendencies and

(01:11:12):
being a full blown narcissist, but also the definition of
a narcissist to someone who thinks they're perfect and doesn't
require right exactly. So that's what that's exactly to my point,
like you're trying to explain to someone who thinks they're
perfect that their reality is actually not reality. It's like
a twilight zone. I mean, I feel like Marissa, maybe

(01:11:34):
maybe you, like you said, learning this has been so
freeing for you, So maybe this is your realization that
thank goodness you found this out now and just learn.
Like I think there's a good point. Go through that checklist.
You can find that online and do your research, talk
to your therapist, determine what you can live with. So

(01:11:54):
maybe instead of trying to maybe he has four things
out of the eight, pick specific ones that you know
you can't live with and attack just those, like, Okay,
if I'm able to convince him or change him, alter
him in some way with those ones, those non negotiables,
all right, maybe I can do this, but determine what

(01:12:14):
those are. Yeah, and I'll also will say too, I mean,
at the end of the day, though, you gotta do
it's right for you, and but don't settle to but
to your point, it's like you want in our relationship,
you want to do everything you could so you know,
you could look yourself in the mirror, look at our
kids and say I tried maybe the same thing for

(01:12:35):
her and also too. But at the same point, yes,
I totally agree with you, honey. But if he's not
willing to do the work, and he's not willing to
look in the mirrorge that you have both people handsome
right there. If he's not willing to do anything, then
all right, that was a good one. Hey, I just
want to circle background and say I'm really protty, but
and I'm really looking forward to seeing all the things

(01:12:55):
that you're gonna do with us in the platform you're
you're building. Thank you. I appreciate it and appreciate you
guys giving me the platform to talk about it, and
Amy and Mark, you guys willing to let that happen
on the show, and I hope, I hope. I just
hate no shame in anything. That's why I love that
you guys say what you say, because you remove shame,
which is the worst. I hope are our listeners have

(01:13:17):
been great. I hope you guys received this with grace
and treated as such and respond as such. And just
know that Jane and I are opening up about this
to help people out there, and there's a there's so
much more we can we will dive into on this topic,
on the addiction sex addiction topic. UM, we'll get specialists

(01:13:40):
on here. We'll go people who have gone through this. UM.
And again, if you're at the l A area April two,
Thrive Market dot com slash Janna to come see us podcast.
It's gonna be fun, all right, See you then, Love
you could up, get up,