August 16, 2021 • 36 mins
Getting divorced is typically not a happy time, but Jana hopes to learn something from a guy that split up and stayed friends.
Benjamin Heldfond, author of “Our Happy Divorce”, has some advice for Jana to get through this difficult season of life.
Jana is forced to face the harsh truth that a divorce is a business decision that carries emotional weight. Find out how things are going with her ex now that everything is finalized.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Jane Kramer and I heard radio podcast. Okay,
so going live today on the actual day. Today was
Jolie's first day taking the school bus, and I have
to tell you guys, it was so freaking hard. Um.
She just had this like independence, which I just I
(00:25):
love that about her. But at the same time, it
was so easy for her to like wave by to me,
and it kind of broke my heart. Not that I
wanted her to be like crying, obviously, I want her
to be strong and like super independent, but I was
so happy for because she was super happy. Um. But
and I did not cry in front of her. But
the second that she got in the bus and I
(00:46):
waved by to her, I straight up when the house
and bawled my eyes out so um that it was
really hard. Um, but it was. Yeah, I'm I'm counting
down the minutes until the bus comes back in a
few hours. Mark, did you cry the first time? But
that happened. It's so funny. We don't have buses out
(01:07):
here in southern California. I mean that's not true. We do,
but it's not standard and it's not common. It's only um,
certain areas get them. So no our kids have never
gone away on a bus from us before, Like, can
you even imagine how that would feel? Like yes, yes,
but also like you're excited because she's not freaking out
and crying. Yeah, but you're so sad and all you
(01:29):
want to do is freak out and cry. Yeah. I get.
I totally get what you're going through. It was so
hard and I you know, obviously my ex was there
because you know, some big day, and he asked it's
not his day to day, but he asked if he
could come, and I was like absolutely, like she's gonna,
you know, love both of us there. And then I
think like seeing him too was just another I kind
of said that there's just a lot of transitions going
(01:51):
on right now, and it was just it was just
very emotional, like the whole whole thing, like so many
things that have has happened just in the last month,
like with her going to school was being finalized. Like
it was just like this um release of emotions and
it was really hard. But my thing is is like,
(02:12):
you know, when she gets off the bus and like
how does she know where her classroom is? And is
she okay? Is she crying right now in school? And
you know, she's probably running around in circles having the
best time of her life. But I'm like, she's probably
in a corner somewhere like crying. It's so good for
her and for you. It is. It's good for everybody,
but I get it. And then the saddest thing was
(02:34):
Jay's He's like jojo jojo and just like crying for her.
I was just like, ah, but yeah, it's it's um.
The band aid has been peeled, and so now it's
just time to get back on that regular routine. And
I'm super pumped because we have Benjamin Health Fond coming
(02:56):
on and he has a book out called Our Happy Divorce,
and it's been really cool. I've I've appreciated so many
of you that have reached out to me on Instagram
and dm ng me and someone recommended his book and
so I've recently ordered it. Um. But I'm excited to
talk to him and about his journey because happy and
divorce just don't really to me go hand in hand.
(03:17):
So I'm gonna I'm curious to hear how he got
to a happy divorce. So we'll be right back. Ben Hi, Hi,
(03:40):
how are you good? How are you? I'm so good. Um.
I Well, first of all, thank you so much for
coming on wine Down. I appreciate it. And you were
someone you were recommended because my I have like the
sweetest Instagram followers and they always are like sending me
inspirational thing things where things would make me laugh for
(04:02):
helpful people, and you were one of the names that
came up. And I remember reading or like I and
I ordered your book on Amazon. But I was like,
happy and divorce just don't seem to go together right now.
And so I'm like, I I need him on to
understand like how those two can can be, how there
is a happy divorce. So it really does. I'm like,
(04:26):
you know, I'm like I wouldn't wish a divorce on
like my worst enemy. Um, but can you just give
the listeners a little in me, like a little background
of who you are and where you're at in your
life and how this all came about? Yeah? So um
who am I? Who? Yeah? Who has been? That's actually
(04:49):
something that is an ever evolving uh answer. But um
my what ex wife and I Nikki, Um, we got
divorced for years ago. Uh And just like every sort
of I guess marriage ending, Uh, it doesn't end on
a winning streak. It doesn't end because everything's great. And
(05:10):
it's a process that and it wasn't for us that
we didn't wake up one day and say let's get divorced.
It was a uh you know, long process and all
the negative stuff that goes on, um uh with divorces
is you're dealing with the business decision but you're also
a business uh decisions but problems. You put the emotional side,
the emotional stuff on top of it, right, and those
(05:33):
two together never ever mix well. And then you have
the kids who are the ones who face the consequences
of that. So anyways, Um, we got divorced and uh
I left the house and angry, resentful. Um. Was there
one side that wanted the divorce more than the other
or I think both of us looking back on it
(05:54):
now wanted it. I think Nikki is a different uh
person than I am, and she would rather have fixed it,
um and stayed together, but for the wrong reasons for
our son, UM. And so looking back on it, yes,
the answer to the question is yes, UM. But I
(06:14):
was the one who UM was a little bit more
UM angry, bitter, blame shifting, Um. It was all her
fault uh and an unwillingness to take a look at
my side. UM. And I think one of the things
that I did, which is a mistake that I wouldn't
recommend to anybody, UM, was that I called a lawyer first. UH.
(06:38):
And UM, you know, I sat with him and I
told him what I wanted, and that was, you know,
basically the cliff note version of it was I wanted
to destroy Nikki uh and show the world how, you know,
how I perceived her. Um. And he gladly took my
retainer and he a week later sent me a game plan, uh,
(06:59):
novel on how we were going to do it. Uh.
And it was exactly what I wanted to hear, or
thought I wanted to hear. And I was on a plane.
I kept it for a week for some reason, I
didn't read it. And I was on a plane coming
back from l A on a red eye to Florida,
and I pulled it out and I read it and
I opened it and I got two pages into it.
(07:20):
And uh, I don't know what it was at that time,
at that moment um, but it was the first time
in a long time that I was honest and I
was you know, I I saw things clearly. I got
this you know, gut feeling, UM. And part of it
was my experience with my parents who had a high
conflict divorce wore the roses in the eighties. You know,
(07:41):
there was one way of doing it, and that was
just like the movie UM. And I was and my
siblings were trapped in the middle of it, and we
ended up getting the emotional bill, or get having to
pay the emotional bill for something we had no choice,
and we didn't order the restaurant, we didn't order the wine,
food anything. UM. And I was able to tap into
(08:01):
that experience on that plane that night. UH. And I
also came to that real understanding and awareness that there
is no way in the history of relationships, UM, that
it can be one person's fault. And so I called
the lawyer on Monday. UM said thank you, but no
thank you, And then I made Then I made the
(08:23):
second call, which should have been my first one, that
if you're listening and you're going through a divorce, I
called the therapist UM. And I also, UH have been
sober for quite a long time, and I called my
sponsor and I started working on the emotional side UM
and tried to clean up, and for the first time
in that process, it wasn't about Nikki. It wasn't about
(08:44):
what she did. Um. This was my side of the street. Um.
And shockingly, it didn't take that long for me to
come to the sobering no pun intended uh conclusion that
I wouldn't want to be married to me either. You know,
I wasn't the man, I wasn't the father. I wasn't
showing up in this life the way that I literally
(09:04):
thought I was. Uh and so um. Anyways, that's the
you know, emotional side that we and then NICKI was
doing that work too. Thank you for for sharing that.
But also when you got to that realization, was there
a part of you that was like, wait, Nikki, let's
try to fix this. Absolutely not. It didn't change um
(09:28):
that Nicky and I. I mean that was clear. You
know that nick and I were just not put you know,
we were put on this earth for one reason, and
that was to make a beautiful child. Um. And so,
but what I did do was I called her. After
I called the lawyer and I said thank you, but
no thank you. I called her and I said, NICKI,
I just need some time. I'm not in any space
to you know, move forward, not that that we're not
(09:50):
moving forward, but to go into this you know, business
legal whatever you want to call it, um space. And
you know, to her, to her credit and ace, she
gave me that time she should take as much time
as you need. Um. And so she then went on
and did some work on herself with therapist I did,
and uh, and then I came to her and I
(10:11):
called her and and you know, about a month later,
maybe it wasn't that long, but asked her to coffee
and sat her down, and uh, for the first and
only time, I think, uh, even to this day, UM,
we had an authentic, uh intimate moment where I apologized
to her and uh you know she did too, and
(10:32):
she she apologized me back. And look, it didn't turn
into her happy divorce right after that, but all of
a sudden, there was like a weight lifted off of
both of her chest and there was some room, um
to move. It wasn't just this focus of you know,
bitterness and resentment, and and then it made the process
that the process wasn't easy from there, it just was
(10:53):
it was a lot simpler, um. And uh, you know
that that was the turning point and the next question,
I asked her what she does she have any problem
with joint custody you know, of our son everything, and
she said absolutely not. I said, Nikki, all the other stuff,
you know, we can work on. You know that's the
easy part. Um. But you know, from that moment to
(11:13):
where we are fourteen years later, if if you had
told me or her fourteen years ago that we would
have the life and the relationship we have today and
the co authors of a book and live and travel together,
and have we lived seven houses down from each other. Um,
you know she's remarried. I'm remarried. Everybody we go on
family vacations and we would have said, you're out of
(11:35):
your mind. You know. It just was so we just
wanted to be in the same room together, um, and
be able to, you know, go to Asher's sporting events
or his plays at school, and not have him have
to as he's walking over to his parents, who are
sitting apart from each other, like play in his mind,
because this is what I had to do. Okay. I
(11:56):
think I went over to mom last time. UM, do
you I have to go over to dad, you know,
because I don't want to make non feel bad or
I don't want to make Dad feel And that's the
kind of stuff that goes on in kid's heads when
their parents, you know, are in this you know, high
high conflict situation. So that was the goal. And then,
you know, so a lot of it was faking until
we made it. Like we would sit at Asher's events
and you know, if if she were sitting here, she'd
(12:18):
probably say the same thing. But she was the last
person I wanted to sit next to. She was the
last person that I wanted to smile, you know. And
because there was still that emotional stuff, there was that
still that you know, washing machine inside of me. Of
It's not like it all just disappeared, um, but eventually
it just became more natural. And what do you because
(12:39):
I feel like that's the part where I'm struggling with
the most, is like biting my my lip because there's
so many things I want to say, and I would, God,
I would give anything to have that lunch or whatever
that you you said you had, um to have that
just like an apology and the you know, and for
just like from a really honest and true place, like
it's just that like broke my heart you said that,
(13:00):
because that would just be like everything um, and it's
like but I just don't think I'll ever really get that,
which is just the the acceptance that I have to
now accept um. And so it's um moving like moving
going down the other road of Okay, that's not going
(13:21):
to actually happen. So now I have to try to
be around someone and that and it's like we're trying
and doing the very best we can, but it's there's
still so many times when I want to be like
I want to say something, and and it's you know,
holding myself back because I'm like, okay, what we have
right now, we're as cordial as we can be, and
and you know, we're really just communicating about the kids.
(13:43):
But when I hear that, you know, you guys are
going on family trips, it's like, yeah, that seems like
the farthest thing that would ever happen or even be
like a friend or I could fight in or or
trust again. You know. So it's like yeah, and that's
such a good point because and this is where you know,
when we tell our story, even in the book, is
we want to be very intentional and let people know
(14:04):
that we get it. Like again, if you told us
fourteen years ago that we've been doing this just like you,
I would answer never, you know, I I would have
said never. And you know, but because of the commitment
to our son, and I think that gets lost a
lot of times and divorces and it's not done intentionally,
(14:24):
or they don't premeditate how they're gonna do it, or
my parents didn't. But these emotions, right, these these negative
hodgepodge melting pot of emotions sort of get the best
of people and they make decisions that aren't really in
the best interests of the kids. And you know, not
to be inauthentic, but there were plenty of times where
I bit my tongue. I wanted to say some there
(14:44):
are plenty of times with Nikki bit her tongue, right.
But but you know, now it's been a little easier
where we don't necessarily have to buy our time because
we can be honest with each other. You know, there
there are still things we still fight, you know, we
it's not you know, this land of like, oh that's
why I'm divorced you and okay, exactly, And it's a
lot easier. It's a lot easier to accept when she's
(15:06):
my best friend than even you know, but my ex
wife in the beginning. But when people listen to this
um and you're going through it, it's really truly um
an understanding that we've been there and we could never
have imagined this, and it might not happen for everybody,
but just you know, maybe hold space uh in there
(15:28):
for and some curiosity to the possibility for sure, and
I and I do, I do get that, and it's
just I think we're I'm kind of struggling as I'm
still in the grieving process of it. And when you know,
we talk, he's very much like, get over it. This
is our reality, and I'm like, but I'm not there yet,
Like this is still I'm not that light switch that
(15:49):
can just be like, oh, yeah, this is our reality.
I'm over it. Nor would I ever say for someone
else to get over it like that to me is
just like there's no empathy in that. So that's where
I feel just like, um not understood. I feel alone.
And but again it's those are all the things that
now I have to process solo and with my therapist
and friends. But it's just it feels very business like
(16:11):
and not to me is just like that's where I'm
emotional about it because I never thought it would be
like a business relationship like that, you know, where it's
and it's like what about the there's how one person
can be so business like and the other one's like
very emotional. So obviously I'm you know, on the emotional
side of it, but or I'm like, but how can
someone be so business like? Right? Right? And that's you
(16:32):
know unfortunately, uh, you know, as people with a different
body part between our lives, is that that is sort
of you know, an m o of you know, at
least for me. I don't know, I don't want to
put all men, you know, sort of in this bucket
for but for me and one of my you know,
patterns in life is to just be business like right
and did not feel and you know, to not um
(16:55):
you know. I was always told as a kid that
I was too sensitive, uh, and I took that as
being bad, right. I took that as a bad thing
or that I wasn't mad enough. So I think that
one of the things also is for me was to
be able to you know, accept that. And I wish
I could say that I learned that fourteen years ago,
but I just I just have learned that recently, but
(17:16):
you know, you know, one of the things that that
I did is probably um just like what you're talking
about is be able to to disassociate the emotions uh
or not feel and just replace that with business like
And that doesn't mean that the emotions weren't there, but
it's a way. It was a way for me to
protect emotions underneath and not have to deal with it.
(17:38):
So that's like I would love to get your input,
like as you know the guy, because he was saying
I was being cold, and when when I when I
UM shut something off, it's very I'm like, hey, what's up?
Because I like it's either that or I'm gonna be
like bawling crying, being like I you know, why did
this happen? I didn't want this? So it's like finding
(18:00):
that in between for me has been really difficult because
I'm like, I'm not meaning to be coold, but this
is like what you get now. I don't like I
I'm not there like hey how are you? You know?
Like I am around the kids, but when it's just us,
I'm like, hey, what's up? Why are you cold? I
don't I don't you don't want to know what I
want to say exactly and that you know, that's about
(18:20):
owning you know, the anger, you know, is emotion for me,
though anger is also a secondary emotion right of you know,
protecting something underneath it. But one thing that I had
to do was and still have to do today, is
own my anger. And it is an emotion and it
is something that needs to be processed, especially for me.
(18:40):
I mean, if not, it comes out in the wrong way,
and you know, it comes out as saying things I
don't want to say and doing all that. But um,
when you look at, um, the relationship with Nick and
I in the beginning, um, it almost had to be
uh a dynamic of or it would have been a
(19:02):
dynamic of our old patterns and our old dynamic of
throwing the emotional boomerang back and forth, right throwing the
uh you know mean spirited or cold or whatever the
dynamic was, and and just throwing that ball back and
forth and black forth. Now what we learned to do,
and sometimes I did it, I think most of the
(19:23):
time she did it, but was just dropped the baseball
and not throw it back, you know, and learn how to.
This isn't gonna go anywhere. This is we we've learned.
We played this movie. This is why, you know. Yeah,
I had to apologize the other day to them because
I was, you know, just let my emotions get in
the middle of what I thought should be happening. And
then I was like, I'm sorry for letting what I
(19:45):
think should be going on or happening. It was regarding
the kids. I was like, I projected how I'm feeling
right now onto the situation, and I'm sorry. So I
was proud of myself for owning it. But at the
same time, it's just like, but I didn't want to
be in this situation, but I left part of right. Well,
I mean that, yeah, and that's what. And I also
wanted to say when when that I forgot to say
(20:06):
at the beginning is that I am not a lawyer,
I am not a doctor, I'm not a therapist. I
didn't stay at a holiday in express last night. So
you know, this is just you know, my human experience. Uh.
And it seemed to work, you know with Nick and I. So,
so this stuff I'm saying doesn't have any sort of
basis in uh, you know, any sort of studies or anything.
(20:28):
But what makes it? You're like, in the book like,
what are some things that will be really helpful for people,
um to have that happy divorce. Yeah. I think the
main thing, um is um putting our son first. And
I think that that you know, gets thrown around a
lot um. And and for Nicky and I looking back
(20:50):
on it, we didn't have this brilliant uh strategy at
the beginning. But as you probably can relate, when you
have a decision to make when you're in that divorce
or divorced or early divorced uh phase. Uh, you know,
and you have the simple math equation of two plus two, right, Uh,
you could have three different answers, right, one for me,
(21:13):
one for Nikki, and then one for our son. And
what we've tried to do was always go with the
one that was best for Asher, that equalled for UM,
and that included who we dated, who we brought around him, everything.
And there was you know, one story uh that we
got divorced. Um. Nikki you know, sort of knew what
(21:35):
I was gonna do, you know, sort of, so my
wild oads if you will be the you know, uh
sort of d bag and and date around and uh,
you know, she asked me. She called me one day
and she said UM, can you do me a favor
and not bring um, Mercedes diamond whatever, crystal crystal, Gucci
(21:56):
you know around ash and so crystals, Gucci diamonds out there.
We're not trying to type. Yeah, yeah, no offense. Um.
And so she asked me that, and and the ego.
The first response was, who the hell are you to
tell me who I can and cannot bring around my son. Uh.
(22:17):
And there was a lot of those sort of first reactions.
Now I didn't say it because you know, what I've
what I learned to do and I still practice and
I try to do, is just to pause right before
and not go off of that first uh you know,
uh gut checker or that first reaction. And then I
thought about it. Uh. And she was right. I mean,
(22:39):
at the end of the day, that was what equals
for Frasher. For for to have him a revolving door
of women in and out of his life with his dad, Um,
what would not be good for him because he's already
got this trauma of his parents getting divorced. Now he
sees this other side. UM. And so I said, you're right,
and I won't do it. And so you know, there
(23:01):
it was a year before I brought a woman around
and introduced him, and I you know, gave Nikki UM,
talked to her and explained to her how was gonna
happen and when it was gonna happen. And so that's
that That's just one example of many, but that's I
think the uh you know, when you have that all
those decisions to make. Is what we did is we
(23:22):
really put as her first, and we continue to do
and we also, you know, part of a happy divorce,
uh is a happy child, right, and his happiness and
we gave him space, um, you know, to to express himself.
And that's one thing that didn't happen uh in in
my life and with my parents is it was sort
of the event, right. It was this event mom and
(23:43):
dad are getting divorced. You know. They set us all
down in the living room, um, and that was it,
and there was no space or opportunity for us to
express ourselves or to ask questions or to you know,
talk about how we're feeling. Um. And so as for me, uh,
I was like this is bad. I then internalized that
(24:07):
and I thought to myself, well you must be bad.
And so one thing that we've done with Asher is
to give him that space and that opportunity to express
himself if he wants to stay another night at mom's house,
even fourteen years later. I mean the beginning was a
little harder. But for you know, yeah, fine, spent another
night at your mom's house. Right, It's not about us, um.
(24:29):
And if something's bothering, you talk about it. Um. And
and so that's that that that's a component of it.
But the other thing is people also, the main thing
is not the main thing. I talked about other people
in our lives, uh and and and what's best for
our son is to bring people into his life who
(24:49):
understand our relationship, what we're trying to accomplish, and not
become sort of a wedge that sometimes happens. Um. You know,
it's easy. It's easier when it's just Nick and I
in a bicycle. You had two more wheels to it,
you know, and it becomes a car and they all
have to work together. Do you find that you guys
(25:19):
have more respect for each other now than when you
were married? No question? Yeah, because it sounds like it
sounds like it, you know, and I'm like, wow, that
would be really cool, because I think there was so
much resentment for me and my ex with each other,
that it would be nice to want to get to
that place where he actually looks at me and doesn't
resent me or hate me and vice versa, you know,
and we can just have just respect because we're putting
(25:42):
the kids first, but also because we are respecting each other,
you know, better than we did when we were married. Yeah,
and that's the turning point. I mean, at some point
I can't even pinpoint when that happened, but that was
when the faking it turned into making it right and
it became this authentic, real relationship where it wasn't forced.
(26:04):
Uh you know today, Um, Nikki, you know is has
always been except for you know, a little time out there,
but you know she's always had my back. She's always
seen me for who I am and love me for
who I am. Um, I never you know, there's a
peer there. I didn't see it, but it can't. It's
sort of had come full circle and now you know
(26:27):
she is when she tells me things and and gives
me advice or calls me out on my nonsense, which
she will do uh freely and oftenly. Um, there's not
that who you know, there's not that stuff that I
would get when she would tell me that before, like
the you know, uh intellect trying to not take it
(26:48):
in and to not listen to her. And it's just
a different reaction. So for the newly divorced couples, I mean,
I kind of like what you said, just take it
till you make it in a way where it's like
we just because there's nothing has come good out, nothing
has come out well with you know, him being mean
or me saying something snarky. So it's like it's just
(27:10):
being nice, accepting this what it is, what it is,
and hopefully by time then your emotions just start to
catch up to that, right, and then your life happens.
I mean that's the other thing, right is, as the
time went on, it became clearer and clearer to both
of us that this was the right decision. But it's
(27:30):
also she got remarried, uh, and she started seeing that, Okay,
this is what it looks like. And then I would see, uh,
how she looked at her husband now, and it was
clear she never looked at me like that, you know.
I mean, so she's so time and space, you know,
creates I think a little clarity at least it did
(27:52):
for us to be able to see why it happened
and why you know, why it happened When you're when
you're in it and you got all those emotions, it's
it's hard to take it a look outside and to
see what things really are. Um. And so the you know,
thinking if you make it uh is also Uh it
sounds a little flippant like saying it like that, but
(28:13):
I get it. Yeah, at the same time, you have
to deal with the emotional stuff. You have to deal
with that, and and the other thing we did, which
I think is important. I don't know if they give
rewards for people who get divorced quick like there's no
it's not a race, Like, there's no award for getting
it over quickly and getting this man with this woman
out of your life quickly. But an expensive lawyer bill
(28:37):
a dark cloud that's gonna follow you around the rest
of your life, and most importantly, a dark cloud that's
gonna follow your kids around, um, you know, for the
rest of their lives. So we took our time, you know,
and like I said, Nikki was very grace graceful with
her with allowing me that and and uh, it took
us which we figured out the whole sort of business
(28:58):
side of it. After that coffee shop. We've out at
that coffee shop I don't know five, six, seven more
times and actually just said okay, where can we where
what can we agree upon? And we ended up doing
the whole a divorce, uh settlement or whatever you wanna
call it. Uh, they're at a coffee shop. And then
we handed it to the lawyers and said, draw it up.
(29:18):
This is you know, that's where the business side of
it does. And you know the business. You know, lawyers
aren't mental health providers. They aren't therapists. Uh. They get
paid more uh than therapists. I remember my lawyer that
they do. I love my therapist. Jason shot out, yeah, exactly,
and probably my lawyer. I called her one day and
(29:39):
she said, how are you feeling? And I said, Nancy,
with all due respect, and I don't mean this to
be you know, you know what, uh, but you're you're
six hundred dollars an hour my lawyers. If I want
to talk about my feelings, right, I can go to
my therapists and get five sessions, yes and present. And
so you know, the the time that we took um
(30:02):
was was a big uh foundation. I think of why
we are able to sit here on your show and
talk about our happy divorce. Well, I love that. And
do what about the women, because I know there's a
lot out there that still don't have that closure or
that apology. What would you say to them to to
(30:25):
move forward and not stay stuck in that wanting it
and holding out for it? And do you think they
will come around? I hope that people. And again, this
isn't something you know. I wish I could say I
learned this a long time ago, but this is just
a recent thing. Is expectations of somebody else um, and
expecting something um is just as it's just a premeditated
(30:51):
setup for a resentment. Right, it's just um because it
might come, it might ever come. But being able to
take responsibility, uh, for your happiness, for your change, for
your life, I think we'll go a long way because
for me, and I'm sure Nikki would say the same
thing is sitting around waiting if she had waited for
(31:12):
me to do X and do that, That's why we
know we got divorced, right, because it was always if
only if only Ben would do this, if only Nikki
would do this? Uh? You know and so yes, you know,
to to the women listening, it would be great. Uh
if everybody could apologize and do what Nicki and I
did and it which it wasn't just me apologizing, you know,
(31:34):
I wasn't the spirit the spiritual giant in this uh.
You know, in this equation. Nikki did the same thing
for me. But it wasn't an expectation. You know, I
didn't go into that coffee shop with an expectation of
her doing anything back to me or you know, giving
me anything back except for just to get this off
my chest. You know this was for me. Um. So.
(31:55):
But but I think the expectations, um, or the wanting
something or needing something, um, yes, I understand that people
want that and need that, but there's no way that
anybody can ever control that. But you can't. We're also
determined or convinced are happy. Divorce doesn't have to be
(32:16):
the you know land of rainbow waterfalls and unicorns that
we live in. But if you're able to not hand
the kids the emotional divorce or bill for the divorce,
and you know, find some sort of happiness and peacefulness
and fulfillment in your life, um, regardless of the other person. Right, Uh,
(32:37):
it still can be a happy divorce. You know. My
therapist said the funniest thing to me, well, not the
funniest thing, but it clicked. It was I was trying
to explain to her, you know what I was wanting,
and and she goes, Janna, you're walking into home depot
and asking for bread. You're not going to get bed
at home depot. And I was just like, Amy, holy crap,
(33:00):
that is like, that makes so much sense to me
out of any everything that you just said to me.
I was like, I'm literally walking into home depot asking
for bread and milk and I'm not gonna get it.
But it maybe you'll go to the next home deep
boil thinking that they'll have it, or maybe you go
to Lows because maybe the you know, they sell something
at home being right. And that's the other thing about
(33:21):
focusing on on somebody else that was so important that
Nikki and I did is we focused on our side
of the street. And and that process was hard because
it doesn't it wasn't natural for me or Nikki. But
you know, even looking over there and going look at
look at her. That's a little dirty over there. But
you know, focusing on on what I can do and
(33:43):
what I can change and take responsibility for it. Um.
And the other thing is the poison I realized that
I was taking and Nicky was, you know, probably doing
the same thing. The poison uh of this resentment is
anger and all this other stuff and hoping that Nikki died,
Like what kind of life really is that where you're
(34:04):
you're sitting there, you know, taking poison and you know,
not being fulfilled in life, hoping the other person suffers
and so that you know, that's that that that was
at the end of our marriage and up until uh,
you know that that moment you know, in the coffee
shop and I want to you know, be you know, authentic.
It just didn't you know, snap our fingers after that
(34:25):
coffee shop meeting and everything was great. No, for sure,
I get that. But seriously, then, thank you so much
for coming on, um, everyone that's listening, Get Our Happy Divorce.
That's going to be UM my next book that I read.
And UM, just thank you for coming on bringing your
perspective and UM, yeah, I really really really appreciate it.
(34:46):
I appreciate you sharing your platform with us and I
and I you know, I know where you are and
I know where people who are going through it are
and and it's a terrible traumatic experience, but it's not
one that has to haunt or you know, suffer. Uh,
you know, I think it's one of my favorite expressions
of life. And is it. Pain is mandatory, but suffering
(35:08):
is optional, you know. And I think with divorce, that
is no truer statement. Uh is Uh, there's no truer
statement because it's painful. It is a terrible, hopeless feeling
and guilt ridden and all the other stuff with the
kids and and but the suffering part of it can
be mitigated and uh, you know, and you can have
(35:29):
a happy divorce, and you can have a happy divorce.
There you go. Thanks then, appreciate you, Thank you, I
appreciate you. Um. Well, I'm optimistic now with uh, with
talking with him, and yeah, I think time kind of
helps everything. I mean, let's be honest, a few months ago,
I couldn't feel myself off before and get out of that,
(35:49):
so I think, um, we're all moving in the right direction.
And I got to keep a positive outlook, especially for
those babies. And I'm going to go now sit outside
because in three hours Jolie is going to come home
on the bus and I want to make sure I'm
not late, and the bus stop is right in front
of my house, so I'm a psycho mom Um. I'll
see you guys next week
Wind Down with Jane Kramer and I heard radio podcast. Okay,
so going live today on the actual day. Today was
Jolie's first day taking the school bus, and I have
to tell you guys, it was so freaking hard. Um.
She just had this like independence, which I just I
(00:25):
love that about her. But at the same time, it
was so easy for her to like wave by to me,
and it kind of broke my heart. Not that I
wanted her to be like crying, obviously, I want her
to be strong and like super independent, but I was
so happy for because she was super happy. Um. But
and I did not cry in front of her. But
the second that she got in the bus and I
(00:46):
waved by to her, I straight up when the house
and bawled my eyes out so um that it was
really hard. Um, but it was. Yeah, I'm I'm counting
down the minutes until the bus comes back in a
few hours. Mark, did you cry the first time? But
that happened. It's so funny. We don't have buses out
(01:07):
here in southern California. I mean that's not true. We do,
but it's not standard and it's not common. It's only um,
certain areas get them. So no our kids have never
gone away on a bus from us before, Like, can
you even imagine how that would feel? Like yes, yes,
but also like you're excited because she's not freaking out
and crying. Yeah, but you're so sad and all you
(01:29):
want to do is freak out and cry. Yeah. I get.
I totally get what you're going through. It was so
hard and I you know, obviously my ex was there
because you know, some big day, and he asked it's
not his day to day, but he asked if he
could come, and I was like absolutely, like she's gonna,
you know, love both of us there. And then I
think like seeing him too was just another I kind
of said that there's just a lot of transitions going
(01:51):
on right now, and it was just it was just
very emotional, like the whole whole thing, like so many
things that have has happened just in the last month,
like with her going to school was being finalized. Like
it was just like this um release of emotions and
it was really hard. But my thing is is like,
(02:12):
you know, when she gets off the bus and like
how does she know where her classroom is? And is
she okay? Is she crying right now in school? And
you know, she's probably running around in circles having the
best time of her life. But I'm like, she's probably
in a corner somewhere like crying. It's so good for
her and for you. It is. It's good for everybody,
but I get it. And then the saddest thing was
(02:34):
Jay's He's like jojo jojo and just like crying for her.
I was just like, ah, but yeah, it's it's um.
The band aid has been peeled, and so now it's
just time to get back on that regular routine. And
I'm super pumped because we have Benjamin Health Fond coming
(02:56):
on and he has a book out called Our Happy Divorce,
and it's been really cool. I've I've appreciated so many
of you that have reached out to me on Instagram
and dm ng me and someone recommended his book and
so I've recently ordered it. Um. But I'm excited to
talk to him and about his journey because happy and
divorce just don't really to me go hand in hand.
(03:17):
So I'm gonna I'm curious to hear how he got
to a happy divorce. So we'll be right back. Ben Hi, Hi,
(03:40):
how are you good? How are you? I'm so good. Um.
I Well, first of all, thank you so much for
coming on wine Down. I appreciate it. And you were
someone you were recommended because my I have like the
sweetest Instagram followers and they always are like sending me
inspirational thing things where things would make me laugh for
(04:02):
helpful people, and you were one of the names that
came up. And I remember reading or like I and
I ordered your book on Amazon. But I was like,
happy and divorce just don't seem to go together right now.
And so I'm like, I I need him on to
understand like how those two can can be, how there
is a happy divorce. So it really does. I'm like,
(04:26):
you know, I'm like I wouldn't wish a divorce on
like my worst enemy. Um, but can you just give
the listeners a little in me, like a little background
of who you are and where you're at in your
life and how this all came about? Yeah? So um
who am I? Who? Yeah? Who has been? That's actually
(04:49):
something that is an ever evolving uh answer. But um
my what ex wife and I Nikki, Um, we got
divorced for years ago. Uh And just like every sort
of I guess marriage ending, Uh, it doesn't end on
a winning streak. It doesn't end because everything's great. And
(05:10):
it's a process that and it wasn't for us that
we didn't wake up one day and say let's get divorced.
It was a uh you know, long process and all
the negative stuff that goes on, um uh with divorces
is you're dealing with the business decision but you're also
a business uh decisions but problems. You put the emotional side,
the emotional stuff on top of it, right, and those
(05:33):
two together never ever mix well. And then you have
the kids who are the ones who face the consequences
of that. So anyways, Um, we got divorced and uh
I left the house and angry, resentful. Um. Was there
one side that wanted the divorce more than the other
or I think both of us looking back on it
(05:54):
now wanted it. I think Nikki is a different uh
person than I am, and she would rather have fixed it,
um and stayed together, but for the wrong reasons for
our son, UM. And so looking back on it, yes,
the answer to the question is yes, UM. But I
(06:14):
was the one who UM was a little bit more
UM angry, bitter, blame shifting, Um. It was all her
fault uh and an unwillingness to take a look at
my side. UM. And I think one of the things
that I did, which is a mistake that I wouldn't
recommend to anybody, UM, was that I called a lawyer first. UH.
(06:38):
And UM, you know, I sat with him and I
told him what I wanted, and that was, you know,
basically the cliff note version of it was I wanted
to destroy Nikki uh and show the world how, you know,
how I perceived her. Um. And he gladly took my
retainer and he a week later sent me a game plan, uh,
(06:59):
novel on how we were going to do it. Uh.
And it was exactly what I wanted to hear, or
thought I wanted to hear. And I was on a plane.
I kept it for a week for some reason, I
didn't read it. And I was on a plane coming
back from l A on a red eye to Florida,
and I pulled it out and I read it and
I opened it and I got two pages into it.
(07:20):
And uh, I don't know what it was at that time,
at that moment um, but it was the first time
in a long time that I was honest and I
was you know, I I saw things clearly. I got
this you know, gut feeling, UM. And part of it
was my experience with my parents who had a high
conflict divorce wore the roses in the eighties. You know,
(07:41):
there was one way of doing it, and that was
just like the movie UM. And I was and my
siblings were trapped in the middle of it, and we
ended up getting the emotional bill, or get having to
pay the emotional bill for something we had no choice,
and we didn't order the restaurant, we didn't order the wine,
food anything. UM. And I was able to tap into
(08:01):
that experience on that plane that night. UH. And I
also came to that real understanding and awareness that there
is no way in the history of relationships, UM, that
it can be one person's fault. And so I called
the lawyer on Monday. UM said thank you, but no
thank you, And then I made Then I made the
(08:23):
second call, which should have been my first one, that
if you're listening and you're going through a divorce, I
called the therapist UM. And I also, UH have been
sober for quite a long time, and I called my
sponsor and I started working on the emotional side UM
and tried to clean up, and for the first time
in that process, it wasn't about Nikki. It wasn't about
(08:44):
what she did. Um. This was my side of the street. Um.
And shockingly, it didn't take that long for me to
come to the sobering no pun intended uh conclusion that
I wouldn't want to be married to me either. You know,
I wasn't the man, I wasn't the father. I wasn't
showing up in this life the way that I literally
(09:04):
thought I was. Uh and so um. Anyways, that's the
you know, emotional side that we and then NICKI was
doing that work too. Thank you for for sharing that.
But also when you got to that realization, was there
a part of you that was like, wait, Nikki, let's
try to fix this. Absolutely not. It didn't change um
(09:28):
that Nicky and I. I mean that was clear. You
know that nick and I were just not put you know,
we were put on this earth for one reason, and
that was to make a beautiful child. Um. And so,
but what I did do was I called her. After
I called the lawyer and I said thank you, but
no thank you. I called her and I said, NICKI,
I just need some time. I'm not in any space
to you know, move forward, not that that we're not
(09:50):
moving forward, but to go into this you know, business
legal whatever you want to call it, um space. And
you know, to her, to her credit and ace, she
gave me that time she should take as much time
as you need. Um. And so she then went on
and did some work on herself with therapist I did,
and uh, and then I came to her and I
(10:11):
called her and and you know, about a month later,
maybe it wasn't that long, but asked her to coffee
and sat her down, and uh, for the first and
only time, I think, uh, even to this day, UM,
we had an authentic, uh intimate moment where I apologized
to her and uh you know she did too, and
(10:32):
she she apologized me back. And look, it didn't turn
into her happy divorce right after that, but all of
a sudden, there was like a weight lifted off of
both of her chest and there was some room, um
to move. It wasn't just this focus of you know,
bitterness and resentment, and and then it made the process
that the process wasn't easy from there, it just was
(10:53):
it was a lot simpler, um. And uh, you know
that that was the turning point and the next question,
I asked her what she does she have any problem
with joint custody you know, of our son everything, and
she said absolutely not. I said, Nikki, all the other stuff,
you know, we can work on. You know that's the
easy part. Um. But you know, from that moment to
(11:13):
where we are fourteen years later, if if you had
told me or her fourteen years ago that we would
have the life and the relationship we have today and
the co authors of a book and live and travel together,
and have we lived seven houses down from each other. Um,
you know she's remarried. I'm remarried. Everybody we go on
family vacations and we would have said, you're out of
(11:35):
your mind. You know. It just was so we just
wanted to be in the same room together, um, and
be able to, you know, go to Asher's sporting events
or his plays at school, and not have him have
to as he's walking over to his parents, who are
sitting apart from each other, like play in his mind,
because this is what I had to do. Okay. I
(11:56):
think I went over to mom last time. UM, do
you I have to go over to dad, you know,
because I don't want to make non feel bad or
I don't want to make Dad feel And that's the
kind of stuff that goes on in kid's heads when
their parents, you know, are in this you know, high
high conflict situation. So that was the goal. And then,
you know, so a lot of it was faking until
we made it. Like we would sit at Asher's events
and you know, if if she were sitting here, she'd
(12:18):
probably say the same thing. But she was the last
person I wanted to sit next to. She was the
last person that I wanted to smile, you know. And
because there was still that emotional stuff, there was that
still that you know, washing machine inside of me. Of
It's not like it all just disappeared, um, but eventually
it just became more natural. And what do you because
(12:39):
I feel like that's the part where I'm struggling with
the most, is like biting my my lip because there's
so many things I want to say, and I would, God,
I would give anything to have that lunch or whatever
that you you said you had, um to have that
just like an apology and the you know, and for
just like from a really honest and true place, like
it's just that like broke my heart you said that,
(13:00):
because that would just be like everything um, and it's
like but I just don't think I'll ever really get that,
which is just the the acceptance that I have to
now accept um. And so it's um moving like moving
going down the other road of Okay, that's not going
(13:21):
to actually happen. So now I have to try to
be around someone and that and it's like we're trying
and doing the very best we can, but it's there's
still so many times when I want to be like
I want to say something, and and it's you know,
holding myself back because I'm like, okay, what we have
right now, we're as cordial as we can be, and
and you know, we're really just communicating about the kids.
(13:43):
But when I hear that, you know, you guys are
going on family trips, it's like, yeah, that seems like
the farthest thing that would ever happen or even be
like a friend or I could fight in or or
trust again. You know. So it's like yeah, and that's
such a good point because and this is where you know,
when we tell our story, even in the book, is
we want to be very intentional and let people know
(14:04):
that we get it. Like again, if you told us
fourteen years ago that we've been doing this just like you,
I would answer never, you know, I I would have
said never. And you know, but because of the commitment
to our son, and I think that gets lost a
lot of times and divorces and it's not done intentionally,
(14:24):
or they don't premeditate how they're gonna do it, or
my parents didn't. But these emotions, right, these these negative
hodgepodge melting pot of emotions sort of get the best
of people and they make decisions that aren't really in
the best interests of the kids. And you know, not
to be inauthentic, but there were plenty of times where
I bit my tongue. I wanted to say some there
(14:44):
are plenty of times with Nikki bit her tongue, right.
But but you know, now it's been a little easier
where we don't necessarily have to buy our time because
we can be honest with each other. You know, there
there are still things we still fight, you know, we
it's not you know, this land of like, oh that's
why I'm divorced you and okay, exactly, And it's a
lot easier. It's a lot easier to accept when she's
(15:06):
my best friend than even you know, but my ex
wife in the beginning. But when people listen to this
um and you're going through it, it's really truly um
an understanding that we've been there and we could never
have imagined this, and it might not happen for everybody,
but just you know, maybe hold space uh in there
(15:28):
for and some curiosity to the possibility for sure, and
I and I do, I do get that, and it's
just I think we're I'm kind of struggling as I'm
still in the grieving process of it. And when you know,
we talk, he's very much like, get over it. This
is our reality, and I'm like, but I'm not there yet,
Like this is still I'm not that light switch that
(15:49):
can just be like, oh, yeah, this is our reality.
I'm over it. Nor would I ever say for someone
else to get over it like that to me is
just like there's no empathy in that. So that's where
I feel just like, um not understood. I feel alone.
And but again it's those are all the things that
now I have to process solo and with my therapist
and friends. But it's just it feels very business like
(16:11):
and not to me is just like that's where I'm
emotional about it because I never thought it would be
like a business relationship like that, you know, where it's
and it's like what about the there's how one person
can be so business like and the other one's like
very emotional. So obviously I'm you know, on the emotional
side of it, but or I'm like, but how can
someone be so business like? Right? Right? And that's you
(16:32):
know unfortunately, uh, you know, as people with a different
body part between our lives, is that that is sort
of you know, an m o of you know, at
least for me. I don't know, I don't want to
put all men, you know, sort of in this bucket
for but for me and one of my you know,
patterns in life is to just be business like right
and did not feel and you know, to not um
(16:55):
you know. I was always told as a kid that
I was too sensitive, uh, and I took that as
being bad, right. I took that as a bad thing
or that I wasn't mad enough. So I think that
one of the things also is for me was to
be able to you know, accept that. And I wish
I could say that I learned that fourteen years ago,
but I just I just have learned that recently, but
(17:16):
you know, you know, one of the things that that
I did is probably um just like what you're talking
about is be able to to disassociate the emotions uh
or not feel and just replace that with business like
And that doesn't mean that the emotions weren't there, but
it's a way. It was a way for me to
protect emotions underneath and not have to deal with it.
(17:38):
So that's like I would love to get your input,
like as you know the guy, because he was saying
I was being cold, and when when I when I
UM shut something off, it's very I'm like, hey, what's up?
Because I like it's either that or I'm gonna be
like bawling crying, being like I you know, why did
this happen? I didn't want this? So it's like finding
(18:00):
that in between for me has been really difficult because
I'm like, I'm not meaning to be coold, but this
is like what you get now. I don't like I
I'm not there like hey how are you? You know?
Like I am around the kids, but when it's just us,
I'm like, hey, what's up? Why are you cold? I
don't I don't you don't want to know what I
want to say exactly and that you know, that's about
(18:20):
owning you know, the anger, you know, is emotion for me,
though anger is also a secondary emotion right of you know,
protecting something underneath it. But one thing that I had
to do was and still have to do today, is
own my anger. And it is an emotion and it
is something that needs to be processed, especially for me.
(18:40):
I mean, if not, it comes out in the wrong way,
and you know, it comes out as saying things I
don't want to say and doing all that. But um,
when you look at, um, the relationship with Nick and
I in the beginning, um, it almost had to be
uh a dynamic of or it would have been a
(19:02):
dynamic of our old patterns and our old dynamic of
throwing the emotional boomerang back and forth, right throwing the
uh you know mean spirited or cold or whatever the
dynamic was, and and just throwing that ball back and
forth and black forth. Now what we learned to do,
and sometimes I did it, I think most of the
(19:23):
time she did it, but was just dropped the baseball
and not throw it back, you know, and learn how to.
This isn't gonna go anywhere. This is we we've learned.
We played this movie. This is why, you know. Yeah,
I had to apologize the other day to them because
I was, you know, just let my emotions get in
the middle of what I thought should be happening. And
then I was like, I'm sorry for letting what I
(19:45):
think should be going on or happening. It was regarding
the kids. I was like, I projected how I'm feeling
right now onto the situation, and I'm sorry. So I
was proud of myself for owning it. But at the
same time, it's just like, but I didn't want to
be in this situation, but I left part of right. Well,
I mean that, yeah, and that's what. And I also
wanted to say when when that I forgot to say
(20:06):
at the beginning is that I am not a lawyer,
I am not a doctor, I'm not a therapist. I
didn't stay at a holiday in express last night. So
you know, this is just you know, my human experience. Uh.
And it seemed to work, you know with Nick and I. So,
so this stuff I'm saying doesn't have any sort of
basis in uh, you know, any sort of studies or anything.
(20:28):
But what makes it? You're like, in the book like,
what are some things that will be really helpful for people,
um to have that happy divorce. Yeah. I think the
main thing, um is um putting our son first. And
I think that that you know, gets thrown around a
lot um. And and for Nicky and I looking back
(20:50):
on it, we didn't have this brilliant uh strategy at
the beginning. But as you probably can relate, when you
have a decision to make when you're in that divorce
or divorced or early divorced uh phase. Uh, you know,
and you have the simple math equation of two plus two, right, Uh,
you could have three different answers, right, one for me,
(21:13):
one for Nikki, and then one for our son. And
what we've tried to do was always go with the
one that was best for Asher, that equalled for UM,
and that included who we dated, who we brought around him, everything.
And there was you know, one story uh that we
got divorced. Um. Nikki you know, sort of knew what
(21:35):
I was gonna do, you know, sort of, so my
wild oads if you will be the you know, uh
sort of d bag and and date around and uh,
you know, she asked me. She called me one day
and she said UM, can you do me a favor
and not bring um, Mercedes diamond whatever, crystal crystal, Gucci
(21:56):
you know around ash and so crystals, Gucci diamonds out there.
We're not trying to type. Yeah, yeah, no offense. Um.
And so she asked me that, and and the ego.
The first response was, who the hell are you to
tell me who I can and cannot bring around my son. Uh.
(22:17):
And there was a lot of those sort of first reactions.
Now I didn't say it because you know, what I've
what I learned to do and I still practice and
I try to do, is just to pause right before
and not go off of that first uh you know,
uh gut checker or that first reaction. And then I
thought about it. Uh. And she was right. I mean,
(22:39):
at the end of the day, that was what equals
for Frasher. For for to have him a revolving door
of women in and out of his life with his dad, Um,
what would not be good for him because he's already
got this trauma of his parents getting divorced. Now he
sees this other side. UM. And so I said, you're right,
and I won't do it. And so you know, there
(23:01):
it was a year before I brought a woman around
and introduced him, and I you know, gave Nikki UM,
talked to her and explained to her how was gonna
happen and when it was gonna happen. And so that's
that That's just one example of many, but that's I
think the uh you know, when you have that all
those decisions to make. Is what we did is we
(23:22):
really put as her first, and we continue to do
and we also, you know, part of a happy divorce,
uh is a happy child, right, and his happiness and
we gave him space, um, you know, to to express himself.
And that's one thing that didn't happen uh in in
my life and with my parents is it was sort
of the event, right. It was this event mom and
(23:43):
dad are getting divorced. You know. They set us all
down in the living room, um, and that was it,
and there was no space or opportunity for us to
express ourselves or to ask questions or to you know,
talk about how we're feeling. Um. And so as for me, uh,
I was like this is bad. I then internalized that
(24:07):
and I thought to myself, well you must be bad.
And so one thing that we've done with Asher is
to give him that space and that opportunity to express
himself if he wants to stay another night at mom's house,
even fourteen years later. I mean the beginning was a
little harder. But for you know, yeah, fine, spent another
night at your mom's house. Right, It's not about us, um.
(24:29):
And if something's bothering, you talk about it. Um. And
and so that's that that that's a component of it.
But the other thing is people also, the main thing
is not the main thing. I talked about other people
in our lives, uh and and and what's best for
our son is to bring people into his life who
(24:49):
understand our relationship, what we're trying to accomplish, and not
become sort of a wedge that sometimes happens. Um. You know,
it's easy. It's easier when it's just Nick and I
in a bicycle. You had two more wheels to it,
you know, and it becomes a car and they all
have to work together. Do you find that you guys
(25:19):
have more respect for each other now than when you
were married? No question? Yeah, because it sounds like it
sounds like it, you know, and I'm like, wow, that
would be really cool, because I think there was so
much resentment for me and my ex with each other,
that it would be nice to want to get to
that place where he actually looks at me and doesn't
resent me or hate me and vice versa, you know,
and we can just have just respect because we're putting
(25:42):
the kids first, but also because we are respecting each other,
you know, better than we did when we were married. Yeah,
and that's the turning point. I mean, at some point
I can't even pinpoint when that happened, but that was
when the faking it turned into making it right and
it became this authentic, real relationship where it wasn't forced.
(26:04):
Uh you know today, Um, Nikki, you know is has
always been except for you know, a little time out there,
but you know she's always had my back. She's always
seen me for who I am and love me for
who I am. Um, I never you know, there's a
peer there. I didn't see it, but it can't. It's
sort of had come full circle and now you know
(26:27):
she is when she tells me things and and gives
me advice or calls me out on my nonsense, which
she will do uh freely and oftenly. Um, there's not
that who you know, there's not that stuff that I
would get when she would tell me that before, like
the you know, uh intellect trying to not take it
(26:48):
in and to not listen to her. And it's just
a different reaction. So for the newly divorced couples, I mean,
I kind of like what you said, just take it
till you make it in a way where it's like
we just because there's nothing has come good out, nothing
has come out well with you know, him being mean
or me saying something snarky. So it's like it's just
(27:10):
being nice, accepting this what it is, what it is,
and hopefully by time then your emotions just start to
catch up to that, right, and then your life happens.
I mean that's the other thing, right is, as the
time went on, it became clearer and clearer to both
of us that this was the right decision. But it's
(27:30):
also she got remarried, uh, and she started seeing that, Okay,
this is what it looks like. And then I would see, uh,
how she looked at her husband now, and it was
clear she never looked at me like that, you know.
I mean, so she's so time and space, you know,
creates I think a little clarity at least it did
(27:52):
for us to be able to see why it happened
and why you know, why it happened When you're when
you're in it and you got all those emotions, it's
it's hard to take it a look outside and to
see what things really are. Um. And so the you know,
thinking if you make it uh is also Uh it
sounds a little flippant like saying it like that, but
(28:13):
I get it. Yeah, at the same time, you have
to deal with the emotional stuff. You have to deal
with that, and and the other thing we did, which
I think is important. I don't know if they give
rewards for people who get divorced quick like there's no
it's not a race, Like, there's no award for getting
it over quickly and getting this man with this woman
out of your life quickly. But an expensive lawyer bill
(28:37):
a dark cloud that's gonna follow you around the rest
of your life, and most importantly, a dark cloud that's
gonna follow your kids around, um, you know, for the
rest of their lives. So we took our time, you know,
and like I said, Nikki was very grace graceful with
her with allowing me that and and uh, it took
us which we figured out the whole sort of business
(28:58):
side of it. After that coffee shop. We've out at
that coffee shop I don't know five, six, seven more
times and actually just said okay, where can we where
what can we agree upon? And we ended up doing
the whole a divorce, uh settlement or whatever you wanna
call it. Uh, they're at a coffee shop. And then
we handed it to the lawyers and said, draw it up.
(29:18):
This is you know, that's where the business side of
it does. And you know the business. You know, lawyers
aren't mental health providers. They aren't therapists. Uh. They get
paid more uh than therapists. I remember my lawyer that
they do. I love my therapist. Jason shot out, yeah, exactly,
and probably my lawyer. I called her one day and
(29:39):
she said, how are you feeling? And I said, Nancy,
with all due respect, and I don't mean this to
be you know, you know what, uh, but you're you're
six hundred dollars an hour my lawyers. If I want
to talk about my feelings, right, I can go to
my therapists and get five sessions, yes and present. And
so you know, the the time that we took um
(30:02):
was was a big uh foundation. I think of why
we are able to sit here on your show and
talk about our happy divorce. Well, I love that. And
do what about the women, because I know there's a
lot out there that still don't have that closure or
that apology. What would you say to them to to
(30:25):
move forward and not stay stuck in that wanting it
and holding out for it? And do you think they
will come around? I hope that people. And again, this
isn't something you know. I wish I could say I
learned this a long time ago, but this is just
a recent thing. Is expectations of somebody else um, and
expecting something um is just as it's just a premeditated
(30:51):
setup for a resentment. Right, it's just um because it
might come, it might ever come. But being able to
take responsibility, uh, for your happiness, for your change, for
your life, I think we'll go a long way because
for me, and I'm sure Nikki would say the same
thing is sitting around waiting if she had waited for
(31:12):
me to do X and do that, That's why we
know we got divorced, right, because it was always if
only if only Ben would do this, if only Nikki
would do this? Uh? You know and so yes, you know,
to to the women listening, it would be great. Uh
if everybody could apologize and do what Nicki and I
did and it which it wasn't just me apologizing, you know,
(31:34):
I wasn't the spirit the spiritual giant in this uh.
You know, in this equation. Nikki did the same thing
for me. But it wasn't an expectation. You know, I
didn't go into that coffee shop with an expectation of
her doing anything back to me or you know, giving
me anything back except for just to get this off
my chest. You know this was for me. Um. So.
(31:55):
But but I think the expectations, um, or the wanting
something or needing something, um, yes, I understand that people
want that and need that, but there's no way that
anybody can ever control that. But you can't. We're also
determined or convinced are happy. Divorce doesn't have to be
(32:16):
the you know land of rainbow waterfalls and unicorns that
we live in. But if you're able to not hand
the kids the emotional divorce or bill for the divorce,
and you know, find some sort of happiness and peacefulness
and fulfillment in your life, um, regardless of the other person. Right, Uh,
(32:37):
it still can be a happy divorce. You know. My
therapist said the funniest thing to me, well, not the
funniest thing, but it clicked. It was I was trying
to explain to her, you know what I was wanting,
and and she goes, Janna, you're walking into home depot
and asking for bread. You're not going to get bed
at home depot. And I was just like, Amy, holy crap,
(33:00):
that is like, that makes so much sense to me
out of any everything that you just said to me.
I was like, I'm literally walking into home depot asking
for bread and milk and I'm not gonna get it.
But it maybe you'll go to the next home deep
boil thinking that they'll have it, or maybe you go
to Lows because maybe the you know, they sell something
at home being right. And that's the other thing about
(33:21):
focusing on on somebody else that was so important that
Nikki and I did is we focused on our side
of the street. And and that process was hard because
it doesn't it wasn't natural for me or Nikki. But
you know, even looking over there and going look at
look at her. That's a little dirty over there. But
you know, focusing on on what I can do and
(33:43):
what I can change and take responsibility for it. Um.
And the other thing is the poison I realized that
I was taking and Nicky was, you know, probably doing
the same thing. The poison uh of this resentment is
anger and all this other stuff and hoping that Nikki died,
Like what kind of life really is that where you're
(34:04):
you're sitting there, you know, taking poison and you know,
not being fulfilled in life, hoping the other person suffers
and so that you know, that's that that that was
at the end of our marriage and up until uh,
you know that that moment you know, in the coffee
shop and I want to you know, be you know, authentic.
It just didn't you know, snap our fingers after that
(34:25):
coffee shop meeting and everything was great. No, for sure,
I get that. But seriously, then, thank you so much
for coming on, um, everyone that's listening, Get Our Happy Divorce.
That's going to be UM my next book that I read.
And UM, just thank you for coming on bringing your
perspective and UM, yeah, I really really really appreciate it.
(34:46):
I appreciate you sharing your platform with us and I
and I you know, I know where you are and
I know where people who are going through it are
and and it's a terrible traumatic experience, but it's not
one that has to haunt or you know, suffer. Uh,
you know, I think it's one of my favorite expressions
of life. And is it. Pain is mandatory, but suffering
(35:08):
is optional, you know. And I think with divorce, that
is no truer statement. Uh is Uh, there's no truer
statement because it's painful. It is a terrible, hopeless feeling
and guilt ridden and all the other stuff with the
kids and and but the suffering part of it can
be mitigated and uh, you know, and you can have
(35:29):
a happy divorce, and you can have a happy divorce.
There you go. Thanks then, appreciate you, Thank you, I
appreciate you. Um. Well, I'm optimistic now with uh, with
talking with him, and yeah, I think time kind of
helps everything. I mean, let's be honest, a few months ago,
I couldn't feel myself off before and get out of that,
(35:49):
so I think, um, we're all moving in the right direction.
And I got to keep a positive outlook, especially for
those babies. And I'm going to go now sit outside
because in three hours Jolie is going to come home
on the bus and I want to make sure I'm
not late, and the bus stop is right in front
of my house, so I'm a psycho mom Um. I'll
see you guys next week
Host
Jana Kramer
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