October 7, 2019 • 53 mins
Jana and Mike sit down with Catherine Oxenberg. Catherine's daughter was a victim of the NXIVM sex cult. We hear her powerful story of how she helped her daughter out of the darkness and the work she’s doing to stop it all from happening again.
Jana and Mike are experiencing turmoil in their marriage in one of the most raw and honest conversations they’ve ever had. The complexities of the relationship are revealed and the pain is palpable.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Jane Kramer and Michael Cosson and I
Heart Radio and People's Choice Award nominated podcast. Okay, so
I'm really excited because we have Katherine Oxenberg in studio.
Un Um, Okay, Katherine, I it's You've a fascinating story.
(00:24):
How before I jump into it? Do you know Sarah Edmondson?
I do? Yeah, Okay, So we did a movie together
about um gosh, it was a year and a half ago, No,
two years ago. It's two years ago, and it's it's
so weird now thinking back to our conversation because I
(00:46):
I remember her saying some kind of weird, weird, weird things, um,
but it was it was off. And then all of
a sudden I saw her on Dateline and I was like,
oh my god, I did a Hallmark movie with her
Christmas movie. Yeah, And so I instagrammed her and I
was just like, hey, because I know that she you know,
(01:07):
she talked all about being in this Nexium cult and
she has you know, the book, her book that just
came out, and so I just didn't know how big
or small that world was. And if you knew of her,
or you know, if if um, because your daughter was
the one that was in the Nexium cults. Correct, that
is correct. Yeah, I definitely met Sarah through Nextium when
it was called Executive Success Program, which was the consumer
(01:29):
facing company that she was a coach for. And so yeah,
in the beginning, she was a big recruiter and UM
and I didn't really have anything to do with the organization.
I stopped taking classes probably in two thousand and thirteen,
but my daughters stated and she remained a coach and
became very involved. And Sarah was quite high up UM
(01:50):
and as far as owning a center in Vancouver and
being responsible for bringing in I don't know, maybe thousands
of people. But when that's kind of what I was like,
I felt like she was trying to bring me into something.
So I remember being like it was just very strange,
and I was like, no, I'm not really like I'm good,
you know. But then I was just like, oh my gosh,
(02:10):
it's all connected. Yeah. She's very charismatic. She's a really
so sweet, adorable person. And I can see why she
was a great recruiter, and I can see why she's
a great whistleblow too. She is the same passion UM
and she's the one who when I first was told
about what was really going on, which would have been
April two thou seventeen, and that my daughter had probably
(02:32):
been branded h I met with Sarah and she showed
me her brand, and but right, no, it's not on
her butt. It's like on her pelvic area. Pelvic area
that's on the front, and hers to date is theony
brand that I've actually seen. But she and I were
in the first New York Times um article that broke
the story originally and got the attention of the government.
(02:54):
And then I went ballistic on a war path with
from one media outlet to the other until so let's
just start over then, So, okay, now that we got
let's start from the beginning. So you, you and your
daughter went to this class. I'll let you kind of
started off. How did it start? Um? Innocently? It was
(03:14):
a self help leadership program. My daughter was about start
a business. Sarah Edmondson was one of the coaches in
that first class. Um It, I've done a lot of
self help. It didn't seem particularly original. My daughter loved
it from the beginning. I think what hooked me a
little bit was they did these emotional processes that unhooke
reactivity or what they considered you know, any limitations that
(03:37):
you have and what's actually happening is there unhooking your
gut and they're just starting to dismantle your personality. But
it feels good, and a lot of these large group
awareness trainings use very similar techniques. I think that probably
Keith Renei, although he says his material um was proprietary
and you'd sign an n d A, I think most
of it was plagiarized from other of these well known trainings,
(04:00):
whether it be st or Landmark or Scientology. I think
that he stole a lot of stuff. So not you know,
but um my, my daughter got very involved and there
was a huge emphasis on recruitment and they were making
a lot of money off people. At one point, Katherine,
did you kind of read between the lines and realize
(04:22):
this isn't exactly what we signed up for and get
yourself out? And then like why was there such a
discrepancy in time between when you got yourself out and
then getting your daughter India out. You know, it's an
interesting thing that you said get you know, getting myself out.
I never really considered myself in because I just took
classes and there was a huge difference between somebody who
(04:42):
was taking the occasional class versus somebody who signed up
for the coach path, which Sarah was a coach, and
they those people were taking this program seriously and they
are the ones that they considered to be really dedicated
to improving humanity. Um Like, there was a big empha
cist on the doctrine and on Keith Rainieri, who they
(05:05):
called the vanguard. So, UM, I never really got in.
I just took classes and then I'm like, you know what,
this is weird. But the reason I wrote a book,
which came out actually last year, was because those warning signs.
If I recognized that they were dangerous versus just thinking, okay,
so these are quirky people. Um, I would have run away.
(05:27):
I would have never exposed my daughter to anything as
dangerous as this. It's just that I was naive. I
didn't really understand how these groups work, and I didn't
understand the process of indoctrination and how easy it is
to kind of hijack somebody's mind without you being aware.
So was India branded? India was branded? Yeah. I did
an intervention with her which was May two thousand seventeen,
(05:48):
and I point blank asked her if she'd been branded,
and she didn't lie, which was strange because everyone within
the organization is taught to lie to everybody on the outside.
So why would you think that she was getting like
what were the things that you saw that were that
was off? Okay? So um, in the beginning, she became
a little more distant, she became a little bit more serious.
(06:11):
She felt more burdened to me, But it could have
been you know. Okay, So one of the heads of
the organization, Nancy Salzman, who was higher than Sarah, told me, well,
India's individuating, and so I could I could, I could
buy that. You know, she was a young woman and
she was separating from me and her family, and she
was trying to find her own way. So a lot
of the symptoms that are like, wow, doesn't feel like
(06:33):
my daughter anymore, doesn't have that kind of brightness and
that joyful spirit. Um. I didn't know that these were
symptoms of her actually just having her personality dismantled and
taking on occult persona. And that's what happened. She slowly
but surely started to change, and it was so slow,
(06:55):
it's such a slow drip that it wasn't until it
was too late that I realized that they'd taken her.
And what do you mean by taking her? What? What?
What does that consist of? Well again steps, first becoming
a coach and so isolating her, creating a new family,
separating her from her loved ones, um, insisting she break
up with her boyfriend, then involving her seven in the organization,
(07:19):
recruiting people, making it her life, then moving her to Albany,
New York, which was the epicenter of the group. So
slowly but surely the years go by. She's living in Albany,
She's given up all her possessions in l A, she's
given up all her friends, and she's leading this new
life in service with Keith Ranieri. And suddenly she's Alison,
Alison max Slave and you go, what the hell happened?
(07:42):
And Um, it wasn't until Like I I'm a parent
of several kids, and really part of the way that
our parent is that I try and let my kids
make their own mistakes. I try not to interfere, try
not to be a helicopter parent. Um. But you know,
given giving really adhering to giving them the dignity of
their own process of adult ng. But when I found
(08:04):
out that she was actually in physical dangerous the moment
that I, like my maternal instincts just went haywire and
I did everything that I could to get her out.
What danger did you see and what danger do you
know that she was in? A defector called me up
mid April two thousand seventeen and said you have to
save her, and I'm like, uh, okay, from what? And
(08:24):
she said, well, she's involved in the secretive slave master
group that's supposed to be a female leadership program within Nexium,
but actually it's a recruiting funnel for sex for Keith.
It's based on a slave master hierarchy, and Alison Mack
is her master, and she's being forced to recruit slaves.
She's probably branded, she's on a five calorie a day diet,
(08:46):
she sleep deprivede she signed a lifetime vow of obedience
to Keith and to the organization. Like she just she
read off this list of things, and I'm like, how
does self help turned into sex trafficking? Like how does
that even happen? And so the first thing that I
did was I wanted to see a specialist. I wanized
in an intervention, I brought her back to l A,
(09:08):
pretending it was a birthday. I felt horrible. I'd never
been duplicitous with my daughter. I mean, we have such
we had such a great relationship. Found out from my
daughter at the same time her hair was falling out
and had a period in a year. Uh so I'm
getting messages from her that she's having physiological problems. I
can't tell her that I know why because I don't
(09:28):
want to kind of I don't want to expose my
plan to bring her back because I was afraid she
wouldn't come back. And then I fail at the intervention,
and I see that she's recruiting other young women and
I'm able to stop them going back to Albany from
being branded. Thank god. So you stopped her like she
she saw it, saw like she in the intervention. She
(09:51):
she saw what was happening. No, quite quite the opposite.
She thought I was crazy and overreacting, and that she
was doing something good and noble, and that um branding
was character building. She was completely brainwashed. At what point
after the intervention, like, how long after that were you
finally able to get through to her? Okay, Um a
year and two months, so she just left and you
(10:13):
didn't talk to her. They took her back and they
started to um. Well. First of all, the hierarchy started
to try and use her to find ways to sue
me and compromise me and silence me. They told her
that I was suffering from Munchhausen by proxy disease, that
I was a psychopath, that everything I was doing was
(10:34):
trying So they brainwashed her specifically against me, so that
I was enemy number one, which made it very, very
hard because then everything that I did when I had
to go and expose her publicly, UM just deepened the
rift and made it harder for her to reconcile with me.
Does she still have that um negative energy towards you?
(10:58):
Or she is she? You know? She? Hey? Now are
you guys okay? We're more than okay? And I think UM.
One of the first things that she said to me
that I knew meant that she was healing off to
thinking that I was like public enemy number one was
she told her best friend, my mom was willing to
have everybody hate her. And I knew when she said
(11:18):
that that she understood that I was willing to go
to any lengths to get her back, and that was
the depth of my love. Absolutely, Let's take a break.
When we come back, Katherine oxen Burger is going to
talk about signs parents should look for in their kids,
things she saw and things you should look for if
you've got kids and are concerned your kids are going
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dot com and entered Janna thirty. Do you have any
(12:51):
any kind of I guess advice for any parents out
there that have you know, these young adult children that
are kind of going off and having their New York
aarance is I don't know, something to watch out for
that maybe looking back you might have missed or you
wish you would have done better. I don't know, you know,
just anything for parents. Um. You know we're parents with
two young kids. But just something to look out for
(13:12):
in there's later years. That's a great question. UM. I
think if I had known that the prefrontal cortex of
a young adult doesn't fully develop until the twenty seven
so their ability to um to make decisions, their cognitive
faculties actually aren't fully developed. I would probably be more
(13:35):
mindful about what they got involved in and do more
due diligence and um I would teach them about predatory tactics,
whether it be an abusive relationship or a predatory group
like this, and what to look for and what to
avoid and a lot of those wanting signs are actually
like there's a roadmap in my book that makes it
(13:57):
very helpful to understand. Like if we exp but whether
it's an R Kelly, you know how these predators operate
in plain site. Once you expose their playbook, which is
pretty slim, then our kids are not going to full
prey in the same way, be a bit a group
or be it an individual, they kind of work the
same way. Absolutely, And and going off of that, do
(14:19):
you think you know, because I feel like, again we're
parents of two young kids. You want everything to be
like butterflies and rainbows, right, especially early on in your
experience raising multiple children, what's that age that maybe you
sit them down and have these discussions or look, there's
bad people in this world. There are predators, there's people,
(14:39):
and these are the consequences. This stuff actually exists in
this world. At what age would you consider having those
discussions going back again with your kids. Wow, you know
that is another great question. And I think that's personal
choice because I think you stopped the minute that they
interface with other people. Um, I was molested a at
(15:00):
age four. You know, I don't know if it's a
personal decision, like who your kids are going to be
interacting with and what you tell them at what age
and what they can comprehend. So maybe in simple terms
when they're younger, and then when they're able to think cognitively,
which starts around the age of ten to twelve, you
(15:21):
can you know, it's a really hard conversation because you
don't want them to be suspicious or cynical, and that's
it's a very fine line. But the world is not
a safe place and people don't have your best interests,
and that's it's tough to break that to your kids.
So when you say this, um the sex slaves and slavery,
(15:43):
I mean was it was it just um, sex trafficking
and sex slavery. What other kind of what else did
that entail? Um? Multiple like abuses against women and what
it means to be a when a woman and it
was deeply embedded into the curriculum. The deeper you got in,
the more misogyny was revealed. Until you have women, like
(16:07):
Lawrence Saltzman tell Sarah Edmondson, the only way a woman
can build can build self worth is through humiliation. So
I would say, um, this was a very very dangerous
organization because the level of self hatred that it was fostering,
that women were able to then hurt another woman. I mean, um,
(16:29):
they were desensitized to the point that violence against women
was was encouraged. That's very frightening. Yeah, but it started
not like that. So I'm just they just they just
get in and they just totally brainwash you. Well, it
was You have to look at it from two standpoints.
The epicenter of this cult, the Keith Rainieri, had a
(16:50):
harm and he was rotating twenty women. This is not
how they present themselves. This is not what I was
told when I walked in the door to take a class.
That really the leaders having said with twenty women, and
that potentially anybody walks through these doors is a recruit
to become a sexual partner for him. You're not told that, Um,
but that's really what was going on. This was all
(17:11):
about his It's about power control in his self gratification.
Everything that was designed, the whole program was as a
funneling system for him. That's how sick it was. And
he's obviously in jail now. He is definitely in jail
without bail, and he's awaiting, awaiting sentencing. Has he owned
(17:31):
up to any of it? Or is he that psychopath
that just thinks that what he did was fine? You
want to hear the thing that's so gross. I was
sitting in court during closing arguments, and I know that
he made his chief counsel say this to the jury,
that he was basically saying that the first witness, this
woman Sylvie, who had accused him of rape, Basically he's like, well,
(17:55):
he Keith gave her her first orgasm. So and I'm
sitting there going, okay, wait a minute, are you really
trying to say that he's a good guy because because
he gave him gave her So that's the level of
of self awareness that this. I mean to me, he's
like he's a lost cause and if he ever comes
(18:17):
out of jail, I mean, he's a danger to society,
this guy. Mhm um. So you have your book came
out last year, right, um hordback came out last August,
and then the paperback came out this July with an
with an extended chapter about the trial and reconciling, reconciling
with my daughter, and it's called Captive, a Mother's Crusade
(18:40):
to save her daughter from a terrifying cult. UM. It's
available now, and you're actually going to be on the
Eat your Hollywood Story too. Yeah, I think that's coming
out this UM Saturday. Has it been hard for you
to be in the limelight in this way? Like, I'm
sure it wasn't what you thought whatever happen? So why
(19:02):
did you Why did you want to write the book?
Why did you want to come out and do the
you know, the story? And is it to to raise
awareness or is it? Is it a coping mechanism to um?
Originally I wrote the book because I was afraid the
government was going to drop the ball because people had
brought evidence for decades and nothing had ever happened. So
(19:23):
I thought, what if, I'm what if my book is
the only resource that collects all the information to expose
Keith Rinieri in these crimes. That was ultimately my first
reason for doing it, because he hadn't been arrested when
I was writing my book, and as I'm writing, the
story is unfolding, so it was happening in real time.
Then I wrote it for India. I wrote it for
my daughter because I figured if she read it, she
would wake up, and that did. It helped her wake up.
(19:45):
And then you know, after that, it's to help other
family members who are going through or what I went through.
I hope nobody goes through what I went through, and
to prevent it from happening. And yes, to raise awareness
because I think these these predators hide in plain sight,
and the more you you shine a light on their
tactics that the easier it is, the safer, the safer
(20:07):
we are, absolutely and do you I know again just
relating back to us having kids in our daughter like
she doesn't complete sentences as well as maybe some of
her classmates, right, and so Janna and I put it
on ourselves and like we feel guilt where we're like,
are we not doing enough? Are we not doing something right?
Where she's a little behind. Going through what you've been
(20:30):
through with India, did you have to overcome those feelings
of guilt? Did you put a lot on yourself initially?
Like throughout all this process, Um, my personality is immediately, Yes,
I felt guilt that I had introduced her to this program,
but I'm The way that I deal with that is
that I I'm I find actionable ways to to counteract that.
(20:53):
So I I went full force into getting around. I
felt responsible for getting around. I felt responsib forgetting her out.
And it's about being accountable as a parent, like you're not.
I can't be blamed for everything, but wherever you can help,
you do. How is India you know, dealt with the
healing process through all this it's been um intensive. I
(21:17):
think for anybody. This is the thing that people don't understand.
You can't leave a cult and move forward. You're still
trapped like it's in your head because they've changed the
way you think. You're still under the influence of the doctrine.
So it takes a lot of work to unravel what
was done to you and to reclaim your ability to
think critically. And that is a process and it's just
(21:41):
been lots of therapy. What was one thing that helped
her the most? Do you think? Um, gosh, you'd have
to ask her that, I mean, because I'd like to
think it you know, it was me, but I don't
think it was. I think it was it was It
was a lot of things. Um. She she met a
(22:01):
lot of people who gave her a different perspective, and
that perspective sort of shattered the cult persona, um like
a watching her blossom was really beautiful and coming back
to herself. Well, I mean, I just appreciate you coming
on here and sharing the story and for being vulnerable,
and you know you're obviously your words and your story
are going to help a lot of people and hopefully,
(22:22):
you know, um, I hope everyone gets your book too,
because I mean, it's it's unfortunately not just a fascinating
made up story. You know, it's real and something that
you guys have been through and others are probably going
through right now. So hopefully this will be the first
you know, look into it and then also the you know,
the help to get out. So we appreciate you. Thank you,
(22:43):
Thank you so much. Both thank you and listeners. Don't
forget to watch the Etrue Hollywood story on this Thanks Catherine,
Thanks you guys. Take care. Halloween is on the way,
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(23:53):
What's happening? Mark Easton are you there? I'm here. Eastern
is dealing with other podcast as we speak. He's running
around this building like crazy awesome, good team, go. How
are you guys? Living the dream? Every day day? We're hustling.
When we last left, we had a discussion about Mike's
(24:13):
trip to Mount Kilimanjaro. Has there been any further discussion
on that. No, we got other stuff more at the
forefront that we're working on. That's okay. Well then I'll
be quiet and let you guys go. Mark, please tell
me about you. I just really want to talk about
Mark today. There's nothing. There's nothing interesting about me. I
(24:34):
promise you. Do you have anything, honey, Nope. I really
don't want to be here right now. So I've kind
of gotten that vibe. Actually, we were our hearts on
our sleeves. Mark, What can we say? It's a blessing.
It's a blessing and a curse. I mean, if you
want to talk about it, be my guest, Michael. I
know Mark would love that. When you Mark, I think,
(24:57):
you know, I just want what's best for all of us. Well,
why don't you just take and see how the water fields?
You know what? Okay, here's the situation and this is
I mean, I'll tell you. Well, we give these listeners
some good stuff. Yeah, it's real good. Did my heart
(25:19):
on the floor. It's really good stuff. I'm not saying
that I'm just really no, I know, it's just really
good stuff. Do you really want to talk about this?
I mean, go for it. Already got all our out there,
might as well just keep it on a roll. And
(25:39):
I'm sure people deal with this. So all right, here's
I'll give the the gist of it. Oh no, let
me start on Saturday. On Saturday, um, we had some
friends in town, but about to go out for a
date night. I received this text mess is from this
(26:00):
number I don't recognize. Open it up. It's a picture
of a female and like a message or top off
mhm message from a female with weird writing underneath saying
(26:22):
oh let's try to meet up this time or something
like that. I don't I mean, you brought it. So
this was a wrong number, This was an old Yeah,
but it wasn't anybody I knew. Oh, and so I
(26:47):
see it and I'm like, okay, I know the right
thing to do is to go get Janna, pull her
aside and say, hey, I just see this. I don't
know what the hell it is, but I just need
to let you know because something like this has happened.
Happened like a year ago when when we were in
(27:07):
l a very similar situation nearly identical, and I brought
it to Joanna and I said exactly pretty much that hey,
I just got this. I don't know what the hell
it is, but I just needed to bring it to you.
And she handled it well, she really did. And this
(27:29):
situation Saturday, even though I consciously had that dialogue with
myself saying I know what I need to do here,
I was terrified to do so I started kind of
rationalizing in my head. I'm like, man, we're about to
go out to a date night with like two other couples.
I was like, in the other end, on the other side,
I'm like, we've Jeanne and I have really had a
(27:53):
good run recently, like not a lot of past stuff
coming up. We've been handling situations pretty well, handling triggers
pretty well, talking things out where It's like it really
felt like we were building a lot of forward momentum,
and really majority of our conflicts were around day to
(28:17):
day marital issues, and so the part of me that
one in this situation was like, this is the past
coming back up. I don't want any part of this.
This is not me, Like, get out of here and
delete block. Done all with the intention in general chime
(28:41):
in after I'm done talking definitely about this is I
was like, look, I need I don't want to bring
this up now. I don't any part of it right now.
I feel like a hot potato. I didn't even want
it my text messages. Get rid of it. I talked
to my sponsor usually like every Monday morning, because I
know where he's going, I know where he'll be and
get ahold of him. I want to talk to him
(29:03):
and go from there. With all the intention of Britans,
Janna let her into the situation, telling her why I
deleted it, which was because I just didn't want any
part of it, none of it. And so then yesterday
I don't know what inspired Janna, but she looked she
(29:25):
saw my Apple Watch and saw the text message on there,
so when she compared to my phone, she thought I
was just being sneaky and deleting it. And I understand,
and I truly am empathetic to the fact that her
seeing something that was deleted, that wasn't brought to her
(29:49):
attention by me in a healthy way, is extremely triggering.
And yeah, it's a boundary to not delete things, something
that we we have mutually discuss and agreed on. So
a lot of stuff comes up for her, a lot
of stuff comes up for me, and it's wait, a
(30:11):
couple of sessions about it this morning, and it's just
it's one of those things that's just difficult to navigate.
You have no idea who this person was, no, none,
none at all. And the only thing I can think
(30:33):
of and how this person even had my number was
almost eighteen months ago when I had my relapse and
I was reaching out to numbers of a plethora of numbers,
and which again, which is how this same situation happened
(30:55):
like a year ago. And so it's just it just
sucks because it's it's just as soon as we feel
like we're hitting a good a good, you know, patch,
it's just like my past behaviors, my past actions come
(31:17):
back to haunt me. And then because I didn't handle
it in the way I know I had to, it
made it even worse. So the thinking was, we're going
off for a day night, it's gonna be great. Things
have been so good with us lately. I don't want
to trigger her in any way. Yeah, and I just
like this is so not me. I just don't want
(31:38):
any part of this right now. I don't want or period.
I don't want this life. This isn't the life that
I'm living now. It's a part of your life you
want to bury, and it's rearing its ugly head and
it's like get away, get away, get away, yes, which
is understandable, but not what Jane and I agreed on
on how to discuss these things and handle these things.
(32:05):
And it's beyond hurtful to see Jana hurt and upset
and a few of the things that she feels because
of the things that I've done in the past. And Jenny,
(32:28):
you regularly go through texts I don't I haven't. Yeah,
we've gotten to a fight, um that morning or the
afternoon or whatever, and I just I don't know. I saw.
I will watch things on the counter in the bathroom,
and I just I always have this like really weird intuition.
(32:51):
Every time I've had that intuition, it tells me to
look and I always find something. And when I looked,
I was like, God, damn it, I saw it, and
I just immediately started my heart just fell. I was like,
it's here, It's happened again. I'm such a freaking idiot.
(33:12):
And I immediately called my best friend and I just
was like shaking crying outside and then I texted the
number where I called the number m um, and then
I texted it and it was like please. You know.
It's like it said like sorry, Hun, can't can't um,
(33:36):
can't talk on the phone, like do you want me
to come over? And I was just like, you texted
my husband. I would love to know your correspondence, like
please from woman one woman to another, and I'm just
like as I'm typing this, I was like this is
literally like how is this happening again? Um? And then
(34:07):
like the messages got like really weird and then like
it sent me the same message that it's sent Mike.
And so then it started to think, Okay, maybe this
is like one of those like computer people, Yeah, like
a bottle like computer, because it was like what kind
of boobs do you like? And I'm like, okay, this
(34:28):
isn't a real person. So then I'm like, yeah, they're
not even reading it. They're just like I'm coming to Nashville,
like let's hook up, and I'm just like okay. So
then I like got to that point and I'm like okay,
so maybe he hasn't. This is an actual person, but
maybe he like got on a site because you know,
(34:50):
usually when you sometimes go to sites, those things can
get on your phone and then then you're part of
like that spam thing. So I'm but I'm like, how
would he get on porn sites because he's got coming
in eyes on his things to not have the ability
to go to those places. And so then I called
my sponsor, um Or, she's kind of my sponsor. It's weird,
(35:13):
she's um she's in the program. She's a sex addict,
and so I called her and I just was talking
this through and and the part is is it's the deleting.
It's the because I'm like, if he didn't delete it,
like I like he said, Mike said, like he came
to me before, and I was totally fine with I
wasn't fine with it, but I was like, Okay, this sucks,
but thanks for bringing it to me. It's the sneakiness
(35:37):
of like feeling like he deleted it because I'm like,
I like he saw before. I didn't freak out. I
could understand if maybe I freaked out before and through
a fit, but I didn't. I was okay with it
as okay, as I was. So the part that scared
my sponsor was that you know that he deleted it
and withheld information, especially since that's the boundary and you know,
(36:01):
and so they're like, okay, like you know, this isn't
the smoking gun? What what you know? Do you hire
a p I? And I'm just like, oh my god,
like my whole my whole world is about to just
can crumble again. And I'm like and I just started,
I'm just like, how like this, I know how, but
I just so it's just been to feel I'm just
(36:23):
sick of finding things. I feel like I'm constantly and
it's like some then someone says, well, don't look, but
then it's hard not to look when I have that
intuition to look. And from your standpoint, the coincidence of
the one time you look, yeah, you find something that's
got to be tough, but well yeah, and it's every time,
and then it's like the hard thing too, is a
(36:43):
lot of the times when I do find something, he'll say, no,
I'm sorry, it was just I don't know. But then
there's always something after that, and that's where I'm like, Okay,
now I'm like living in the lava again. When am
I gonna get completely covered by it? Because that's next.
And that's the part that's like, that's the part that's like,
(37:05):
you know, I don't want to live this kind of
life to to know when the like we just moved
in this beautiful house and we had the second kid,
Like we thought so hard, like why why is this
happening again? And that's what I'm so scared of because
it's it's not whether he ends up meeting up with
someone or not. I mean that last relapse, he almost
did and I was going to sign the papers. So
(37:27):
it's like he gets even close to the fire and
I'm gone. It's like and I'm like, because he not
know that and realize that. And I love our family
enough and I know it's not a bar our family,
it's not about me, but that's just where um. But
unfortunately we met or fortunately we had a couples. Well,
(37:48):
so last night I just was like, get out of
the room, you know, out And this morning we had
the obviously a couple of therapists and it was a
new therapist. Like poor guy just got majorly baptized by
fire because um, but you know, and he just was
like you know, gave Mike the opportunity to come forward
(38:10):
and know that I'm going to start researching and looking
into things on the phone bill and just he's like,
can you try not to go all the way down
the rabbit hole? You know, He's like, do you need
to look for a couple of weeks and see? And
that's a hard part because now I have to go, Okay,
was he on an inappropriate site that I don't know about?
Was this just a fluke? Is he really? You know?
(38:33):
I'm like I love you, Mike, but like you're a
good liar, like you passed the light at doctor test,
you know what I mean. Lying. So I'm like, you're
you're charming as how people believe you like you've lied
to Like I mean I've seen you like look me
in the eye and tell me what your truth was,
but it wasn't your truth. Yeah, So it's like I'm
(38:55):
kind of caught and like this weird, Like what do
I believe? How? Was it just a fluke? I don't know?
And that's where I'm just like I kind of just
feel like I'm like I've given enough signs to the
freaking universal, Like do I do? I keep asking for
signs or these my signs, but like I can get
out of dodge. Sorry, this is just really fresh. Don't
(39:18):
be sorry. Of course you don't be sorry, You're the show. No,
But I also am like here with tears in my eyes,
and I the thing that's hard is you're not looking
at each other right now, and you're not speaking to
each other, and your body language is really tough right now,
and you're talking about him, but he's right next to you,
(39:41):
because I'm just not ready to look at me yet
because I don't know what I'm looking. A's okay, that's okay.
What would help you? I don't know. As a thing,
I can't there's nothing that's I'm like, I don't I
don't know, but I just like, why can't you just
like I didn't give you a reason to not tell
me the truth or did not just be like hey,
this came up? Like I just need like in moments
(40:02):
like that, because I always ask I'm like, hey, is
that anything inappropriate? Or I gave him an opportunity to
come to have a safe place, and I like, I
want those moments so bad. I want to see that
he's working his recovery and working the boundaries like that
stuff is so huge for me, which is why I
didn't freak out the last time when he came right, Well, Michael,
what scares you? What scares you to tell her? And
(40:26):
that's just it. It's it's scary, period, I understand, because
there's so much shame because in my mind, yes, even
though I know the right thing to do, it's still
a reminder of the things that I've done, and so
(40:46):
there's just it's there's so much pain, there's so much
fear behind that that the other part of me, it's
just like I don't want her to have to think
of that stuff. What about for giving yourself first, Mike,
and and trying every day because you have so much pain,
(41:08):
And then because of that, it is all over Janna,
and she has to carry so much because you won't
forgive yourself. She can't forgive you until you forgive yourself.
I mean, I've told him I forgive him. I know
you have. And Mike, you are a good person. You
(41:29):
are you both are so beautiful and strong and open,
and I just don't know that you guys know it.
So Janna. I read this article. It's really interesting you
bring this up about the need to know versus the
fear of knowing. And I think that that's something that
(41:50):
that you should think about and talk to your sponsor
therapist about because it seems that that's what you grapple with.
You need to know, but you're afraid to know, and
that becomes a painful conflict for someone and neither is
necessarily I need to know for safety. That's the thing, Like,
that's kind of what I've always when something comes up,
(42:11):
because I want to know that he's because it is
hard for him to tell the truth. It has been
in the past. So it's like to feel to know
that I'm safe in this marriage and to know that
he's not acting out like those are the things, like
those land mimes, that land minds that he gets for
for me to be able to see and to know
(42:31):
that he's doing what he's you know, what people have
told him and how to you know, how to tell me,
And it's like and with me being empathetic and sitting
in it and knowing what he's doing, like that's that
I it's like it it's it's so helpful. It shows
me that he's on the right path of recovery. And yeah,
it gives me security, and he's telling me the truth
(42:54):
and not just deleting things. Like the deleting things just
I mean, it's just whether it's it was a fluke
text sends me right back to him deleting all the
messages that he did with his affairs. I understand that.
I understand that. So it's just it's heavy because I'm like,
and now I just I don't know what, I don't know, Well,
you feel out of control? Yeah, I just I feel
(43:16):
like I'm just like my anxiety level is just like
through the roof. And did the therapist this morning have
any input on that about what to do now? Ah,
to take the space we need and to rely on
(43:42):
what we need to rely on in order to take
care of ourselves. That makes sense. I know. I feel
like Janna has to find the security in herself. That's
the thing. Like I'm when you know, when I got
upset last night, like staring at my house out side
in our driveway, it was I'm I'm secure with me,
(44:06):
but like our relationship and I thought we were. It's
just I felt like it was like a slap in
the face. So I'm not secure in his recovery. But
it's not my recovery, that's the thing. So it's it's
that's the that's the hard part about living with an addict. Today.
I'm not secure. A few days ago i felt secure.
(44:32):
I'm trying to just process everything. It's it's really complicated.
It is, and it's it is, but it's not, you know,
And that's that's honestly, it's that's part of the weight
and the frustration and the pain of it all because
when you look at it, if you put it down
(44:53):
on paper, it's very simplistic. Just all I had to
do was come to her and say, hey, this happened,
so what is your answer? Why you didn't? First of all,
for me, feeling safe and telling the truth is something
that goes back since I was young, Like I have
(45:14):
fear around even being honest because of how it was
received in my upbringing. So that's a very big traumatic
trigger for me and has definitely been my biggest hurdle
(45:34):
in living with integrity and being completely honest and transparent
and and and everything. In all accounts, what I was
telling Mark on why I didn't was because I want
to run so far away from that life of getting
that kind of text message of being reminded of the
(45:58):
piece of that used to be that it's just it's
that shame hit that kicking the dick, and I just
selfishly I didn't want any part of it. And that's
that's the part that's unfair because I took that opportunity
away from myself and from Janna because I wanted to
(46:19):
spare myself and her. But I feel like it was
more of a selfish decision because I was scared. So
when I hear you call yourself a piece of used
to be, you weren't. But that's but that's it, that's
how that's how I I feel, That's how I felt.
That's part of you. Work on that part and forgiving
(46:41):
yourself and knowing then you will trust Jannet. Jane is
fiercely loyal to you, Michael, and you need to be
willing to share with her the worst parts of you.
She will not leave. Wow. Well yes, but if you
would have old her and you are not a piece
(47:05):
of understand you are not. I never learned how to
trust the truth. That's that and that's my trauma. But
it's not on her. She's shown you so much loyalty.
But I also want Jane to when she hears you
call yourself a piece of it breaks my heart. It
must gut her mm hmm. Good guy, right a right,
(47:29):
all right, but you are a good guy. Hate hearing
you say that about yourself, and I would feel the
same way of Janna criticize herself that way. I'm just
sorry you can say that, say it to her. I
(47:50):
am sorry I didn't handle it the way that we
agreed upon and handle it the right way for myself,
are you and for both of us, I'm sorry that
the damage that something like again that seems so simplistic
can cause. I hear you. I just I'm having a
(48:17):
hard time with you're saying that you were gonna tell me,
because it's like you know how many times I've heard
but I was going to tell you. But so I'm like,
you deleted it, like just own that you weren't going
to see. You don't want any part of it that
you just deleted it, don't. I just the saying that
you were going to tell me about it is the
part that I'm just like, I do not buy And
(48:38):
I don't blame you for not wanting to tell me,
not one in that life. I don't. But I'm like
I have a heart because I'm like, you know, many
times I've heard you say, but I'm gonna I was
gonna tell you about it. So after twenty times of
finding things, I don't believe that line anymore. I believe
you deleting it and just being like I don't want
this life. I do believe that, and you Step, I
(48:59):
get that. I totally would get that. But the fact
that you're trying to hide behind saying but you were
going to tell me, I don't get I will I
will not believe you on that. I just don't. And
I can't really hear her, really hear her, because she's
making a really really clear point there, and I understand it,
like I'm totally giving you the opportunity to be like,
(49:21):
you're right, and I you know, even though I said
I was gonna tell you you're right, that is a lie.
Maybe my intentions sure were, but I probably wasn't. That
would make more sense to me that that I can
agree with Before when I hear you before, when we
talked about it, it seemed black and white, and I
(49:41):
I didn't want to like challenge my own integrity of
just outright admitting that I wouldn't my intention. It was
absolutely to bring it up because I know that was
the right thing to do. Do you think in your
heart of heart so you're going to bring it up?
I don't know. Now that's an honest answer like that.
(50:04):
I can actually like my question. My intention and plan
was too. But like you said that, you just says,
I don't know. Do you know why you lied just
now saying when you say I was going to tell
you and Janet that because I doesn't believe. Because I
believe that I do because of the work that I've
(50:27):
been doing, the work that I am trying to do,
I like to believe that I would default and do
the right thing. I don't think there's any answer. Yeah,
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. No,
that's a fairy answer. Are you really going to call
perhaps on Monday? That was my intention, absolutely that that
was that was my intention. Again, but to answer it,
(50:50):
I like to think so that was my intention, But
I don't know. I don't know if I would have
woken up this morning and followed through, I don't know,
And it wouldn't have bothered you at all. It would
just it's out of side and mind you deleted it
and whatever. I can't speak for the situation. I can't
go through and say if this would happen, that would happen.
(51:13):
All I know is that when I deleted it is
because I didn't want any part of it. Now, this
is where I feel like you're trying to trap me
into saying something. See, I told you this, I told
you glider. No, that's just because it's that's you wouldn't
have told me. And I know that. So I just
really want to be done. I'm closing off guys. Sorry, No,
(51:35):
that's okay. I don't want I want you guys to
take a breath. I'm a little nervous about you guys,
just like, no, it's fine. We got our kids, so
we'll just go our separate ways and let be fine.
What can we do for for you, both of you,
Like if I was as brave as both of you
to tell you the ways that I understand what both
of you are saying, Like it's really important because so
(51:57):
many people can relate, even if it's a different example.
It's really powerful. Like I feel truly for both of
you right now, truly, and I hear you both and
I believe you I hope in next week when people
listen to this that they understand it's this is real.
And that's why we share is because we know that
(52:22):
there's other people out there going through either the exact
same situation or like you said, Amy, different topic but similar,
similar details. And I understand too, Make it go away,
Make it go away. And I understand so much of
what Janna feels so much. That's why it's like there's
(52:43):
no answer because you're it's I get it, and you
do need time. Yeah, we love you guys so much.
Two
Wind Down with Jane Kramer and Michael Cosson and I
Heart Radio and People's Choice Award nominated podcast. Okay, so
I'm really excited because we have Katherine Oxenberg in studio.
Un Um, Okay, Katherine, I it's You've a fascinating story.
(00:24):
How before I jump into it? Do you know Sarah Edmondson?
I do? Yeah, Okay, So we did a movie together
about um gosh, it was a year and a half ago, No,
two years ago. It's two years ago, and it's it's
so weird now thinking back to our conversation because I
(00:46):
I remember her saying some kind of weird, weird, weird things, um,
but it was it was off. And then all of
a sudden I saw her on Dateline and I was like,
oh my god, I did a Hallmark movie with her
Christmas movie. Yeah, And so I instagrammed her and I
was just like, hey, because I know that she you know,
(01:07):
she talked all about being in this Nexium cult and
she has you know, the book, her book that just
came out, and so I just didn't know how big
or small that world was. And if you knew of her,
or you know, if if um, because your daughter was
the one that was in the Nexium cults. Correct, that
is correct. Yeah, I definitely met Sarah through Nextium when
it was called Executive Success Program, which was the consumer
(01:29):
facing company that she was a coach for. And so yeah,
in the beginning, she was a big recruiter and UM
and I didn't really have anything to do with the organization.
I stopped taking classes probably in two thousand and thirteen,
but my daughters stated and she remained a coach and
became very involved. And Sarah was quite high up UM
(01:50):
and as far as owning a center in Vancouver and
being responsible for bringing in I don't know, maybe thousands
of people. But when that's kind of what I was like,
I felt like she was trying to bring me into something.
So I remember being like it was just very strange,
and I was like, no, I'm not really like I'm good,
you know. But then I was just like, oh my gosh,
(02:10):
it's all connected. Yeah. She's very charismatic. She's a really
so sweet, adorable person. And I can see why she
was a great recruiter, and I can see why she's
a great whistleblow too. She is the same passion UM
and she's the one who when I first was told
about what was really going on, which would have been
April two thou seventeen, and that my daughter had probably
(02:32):
been branded h I met with Sarah and she showed
me her brand, and but right, no, it's not on
her butt. It's like on her pelvic area. Pelvic area
that's on the front, and hers to date is theony
brand that I've actually seen. But she and I were
in the first New York Times um article that broke
the story originally and got the attention of the government.
(02:54):
And then I went ballistic on a war path with
from one media outlet to the other until so let's
just start over then, So, okay, now that we got
let's start from the beginning. So you, you and your
daughter went to this class. I'll let you kind of
started off. How did it start? Um? Innocently? It was
(03:14):
a self help leadership program. My daughter was about start
a business. Sarah Edmondson was one of the coaches in
that first class. Um It, I've done a lot of
self help. It didn't seem particularly original. My daughter loved
it from the beginning. I think what hooked me a
little bit was they did these emotional processes that unhooke
reactivity or what they considered you know, any limitations that
(03:37):
you have and what's actually happening is there unhooking your
gut and they're just starting to dismantle your personality. But
it feels good, and a lot of these large group
awareness trainings use very similar techniques. I think that probably
Keith Renei, although he says his material um was proprietary
and you'd sign an n d A, I think most
of it was plagiarized from other of these well known trainings,
(04:00):
whether it be st or Landmark or Scientology. I think
that he stole a lot of stuff. So not you know,
but um my, my daughter got very involved and there
was a huge emphasis on recruitment and they were making
a lot of money off people. At one point, Katherine,
did you kind of read between the lines and realize
(04:22):
this isn't exactly what we signed up for and get
yourself out? And then like why was there such a
discrepancy in time between when you got yourself out and
then getting your daughter India out. You know, it's an
interesting thing that you said get you know, getting myself out.
I never really considered myself in because I just took
classes and there was a huge difference between somebody who
(04:42):
was taking the occasional class versus somebody who signed up
for the coach path, which Sarah was a coach, and
they those people were taking this program seriously and they
are the ones that they considered to be really dedicated
to improving humanity. Um Like, there was a big empha
cist on the doctrine and on Keith Rainieri, who they
(05:05):
called the vanguard. So, UM, I never really got in.
I just took classes and then I'm like, you know what,
this is weird. But the reason I wrote a book,
which came out actually last year, was because those warning signs.
If I recognized that they were dangerous versus just thinking, okay,
so these are quirky people. Um, I would have run away.
(05:27):
I would have never exposed my daughter to anything as
dangerous as this. It's just that I was naive. I
didn't really understand how these groups work, and I didn't
understand the process of indoctrination and how easy it is
to kind of hijack somebody's mind without you being aware.
So was India branded? India was branded? Yeah. I did
an intervention with her which was May two thousand seventeen,
(05:48):
and I point blank asked her if she'd been branded,
and she didn't lie, which was strange because everyone within
the organization is taught to lie to everybody on the outside.
So why would you think that she was getting like
what were the things that you saw that were that
was off? Okay? So um, in the beginning, she became
a little more distant, she became a little bit more serious.
(06:11):
She felt more burdened to me, But it could have
been you know. Okay, So one of the heads of
the organization, Nancy Salzman, who was higher than Sarah, told me, well,
India's individuating, and so I could I could, I could
buy that. You know, she was a young woman and
she was separating from me and her family, and she
was trying to find her own way. So a lot
of the symptoms that are like, wow, doesn't feel like
(06:33):
my daughter anymore, doesn't have that kind of brightness and
that joyful spirit. Um. I didn't know that these were
symptoms of her actually just having her personality dismantled and
taking on occult persona. And that's what happened. She slowly
but surely started to change, and it was so slow,
(06:55):
it's such a slow drip that it wasn't until it
was too late that I realized that they'd taken her.
And what do you mean by taking her? What? What?
What does that consist of? Well again steps, first becoming
a coach and so isolating her, creating a new family,
separating her from her loved ones, um, insisting she break
up with her boyfriend, then involving her seven in the organization,
(07:19):
recruiting people, making it her life, then moving her to Albany,
New York, which was the epicenter of the group. So
slowly but surely the years go by. She's living in Albany,
She's given up all her possessions in l A, she's
given up all her friends, and she's leading this new
life in service with Keith Ranieri. And suddenly she's Alison,
Alison max Slave and you go, what the hell happened?
(07:42):
And Um, it wasn't until Like I I'm a parent
of several kids, and really part of the way that
our parent is that I try and let my kids
make their own mistakes. I try not to interfere, try
not to be a helicopter parent. Um. But you know,
given giving really adhering to giving them the dignity of
their own process of adult ng. But when I found
(08:04):
out that she was actually in physical dangerous the moment
that I, like my maternal instincts just went haywire and
I did everything that I could to get her out.
What danger did you see and what danger do you
know that she was in? A defector called me up
mid April two thousand seventeen and said you have to
save her, and I'm like, uh, okay, from what? And
(08:24):
she said, well, she's involved in the secretive slave master
group that's supposed to be a female leadership program within Nexium,
but actually it's a recruiting funnel for sex for Keith.
It's based on a slave master hierarchy, and Alison Mack
is her master, and she's being forced to recruit slaves.
She's probably branded, she's on a five calorie a day diet,
(08:46):
she sleep deprivede she signed a lifetime vow of obedience
to Keith and to the organization. Like she just she
read off this list of things, and I'm like, how
does self help turned into sex trafficking? Like how does
that even happen? And so the first thing that I
did was I wanted to see a specialist. I wanized
in an intervention, I brought her back to l A,
(09:08):
pretending it was a birthday. I felt horrible. I'd never
been duplicitous with my daughter. I mean, we have such
we had such a great relationship. Found out from my
daughter at the same time her hair was falling out
and had a period in a year. Uh so I'm
getting messages from her that she's having physiological problems. I
can't tell her that I know why because I don't
(09:28):
want to kind of I don't want to expose my
plan to bring her back because I was afraid she
wouldn't come back. And then I fail at the intervention,
and I see that she's recruiting other young women and
I'm able to stop them going back to Albany from
being branded. Thank god. So you stopped her like she
she saw it, saw like she in the intervention. She
(09:51):
she saw what was happening. No, quite quite the opposite.
She thought I was crazy and overreacting, and that she
was doing something good and noble, and that um branding
was character building. She was completely brainwashed. At what point
after the intervention, like, how long after that were you
finally able to get through to her? Okay, Um a
year and two months, so she just left and you
(10:13):
didn't talk to her. They took her back and they
started to um. Well. First of all, the hierarchy started
to try and use her to find ways to sue
me and compromise me and silence me. They told her
that I was suffering from Munchhausen by proxy disease, that
I was a psychopath, that everything I was doing was
(10:34):
trying So they brainwashed her specifically against me, so that
I was enemy number one, which made it very, very
hard because then everything that I did when I had
to go and expose her publicly, UM just deepened the
rift and made it harder for her to reconcile with me.
Does she still have that um negative energy towards you?
(10:58):
Or she is she? You know? She? Hey? Now are
you guys okay? We're more than okay? And I think UM.
One of the first things that she said to me
that I knew meant that she was healing off to
thinking that I was like public enemy number one was
she told her best friend, my mom was willing to
have everybody hate her. And I knew when she said
(11:18):
that that she understood that I was willing to go
to any lengths to get her back, and that was
the depth of my love. Absolutely, Let's take a break.
When we come back, Katherine oxen Burger is going to
talk about signs parents should look for in their kids,
things she saw and things you should look for if
you've got kids and are concerned your kids are going
down a bad path. Lola is a female founded company
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dot com and entered Janna thirty. Do you have any
(12:51):
any kind of I guess advice for any parents out
there that have you know, these young adult children that
are kind of going off and having their New York
aarance is I don't know, something to watch out for
that maybe looking back you might have missed or you
wish you would have done better. I don't know, you know,
just anything for parents. Um. You know we're parents with
two young kids. But just something to look out for
(13:12):
in there's later years. That's a great question. UM. I
think if I had known that the prefrontal cortex of
a young adult doesn't fully develop until the twenty seven
so their ability to um to make decisions, their cognitive
faculties actually aren't fully developed. I would probably be more
(13:35):
mindful about what they got involved in and do more
due diligence and um I would teach them about predatory tactics,
whether it be an abusive relationship or a predatory group
like this, and what to look for and what to
avoid and a lot of those wanting signs are actually
like there's a roadmap in my book that makes it
(13:57):
very helpful to understand. Like if we exp but whether
it's an R Kelly, you know how these predators operate
in plain site. Once you expose their playbook, which is
pretty slim, then our kids are not going to full
prey in the same way, be a bit a group
or be it an individual, they kind of work the
same way. Absolutely, And and going off of that, do
(14:19):
you think you know, because I feel like, again we're
parents of two young kids. You want everything to be
like butterflies and rainbows, right, especially early on in your
experience raising multiple children, what's that age that maybe you
sit them down and have these discussions or look, there's
bad people in this world. There are predators, there's people,
(14:39):
and these are the consequences. This stuff actually exists in
this world. At what age would you consider having those
discussions going back again with your kids. Wow, you know
that is another great question. And I think that's personal
choice because I think you stopped the minute that they
interface with other people. Um, I was molested a at
(15:00):
age four. You know, I don't know if it's a
personal decision, like who your kids are going to be
interacting with and what you tell them at what age
and what they can comprehend. So maybe in simple terms
when they're younger, and then when they're able to think cognitively,
which starts around the age of ten to twelve, you
(15:21):
can you know, it's a really hard conversation because you
don't want them to be suspicious or cynical, and that's
it's a very fine line. But the world is not
a safe place and people don't have your best interests,
and that's it's tough to break that to your kids.
So when you say this, um the sex slaves and slavery,
(15:43):
I mean was it was it just um, sex trafficking
and sex slavery. What other kind of what else did
that entail? Um? Multiple like abuses against women and what
it means to be a when a woman and it
was deeply embedded into the curriculum. The deeper you got in,
the more misogyny was revealed. Until you have women, like
(16:07):
Lawrence Saltzman tell Sarah Edmondson, the only way a woman
can build can build self worth is through humiliation. So
I would say, um, this was a very very dangerous
organization because the level of self hatred that it was fostering,
that women were able to then hurt another woman. I mean, um,
(16:29):
they were desensitized to the point that violence against women
was was encouraged. That's very frightening. Yeah, but it started
not like that. So I'm just they just they just
get in and they just totally brainwash you. Well, it
was You have to look at it from two standpoints.
The epicenter of this cult, the Keith Rainieri, had a
(16:50):
harm and he was rotating twenty women. This is not
how they present themselves. This is not what I was
told when I walked in the door to take a class.
That really the leaders having said with twenty women, and
that potentially anybody walks through these doors is a recruit
to become a sexual partner for him. You're not told that, Um,
but that's really what was going on. This was all
(17:11):
about his It's about power control in his self gratification.
Everything that was designed, the whole program was as a
funneling system for him. That's how sick it was. And
he's obviously in jail now. He is definitely in jail
without bail, and he's awaiting, awaiting sentencing. Has he owned
(17:31):
up to any of it? Or is he that psychopath
that just thinks that what he did was fine? You
want to hear the thing that's so gross. I was
sitting in court during closing arguments, and I know that
he made his chief counsel say this to the jury,
that he was basically saying that the first witness, this
woman Sylvie, who had accused him of rape, Basically he's like, well,
(17:55):
he Keith gave her her first orgasm. So and I'm
sitting there going, okay, wait a minute, are you really
trying to say that he's a good guy because because
he gave him gave her So that's the level of
of self awareness that this. I mean to me, he's
like he's a lost cause and if he ever comes
(18:17):
out of jail, I mean, he's a danger to society,
this guy. Mhm um. So you have your book came
out last year, right, um hordback came out last August,
and then the paperback came out this July with an
with an extended chapter about the trial and reconciling, reconciling
with my daughter, and it's called Captive, a Mother's Crusade
(18:40):
to save her daughter from a terrifying cult. UM. It's
available now, and you're actually going to be on the
Eat your Hollywood Story too. Yeah, I think that's coming
out this UM Saturday. Has it been hard for you
to be in the limelight in this way? Like, I'm
sure it wasn't what you thought whatever happen? So why
(19:02):
did you Why did you want to write the book?
Why did you want to come out and do the
you know, the story? And is it to to raise
awareness or is it? Is it a coping mechanism to um?
Originally I wrote the book because I was afraid the
government was going to drop the ball because people had
brought evidence for decades and nothing had ever happened. So
(19:23):
I thought, what if, I'm what if my book is
the only resource that collects all the information to expose
Keith Rinieri in these crimes. That was ultimately my first
reason for doing it, because he hadn't been arrested when
I was writing my book, and as I'm writing, the
story is unfolding, so it was happening in real time.
Then I wrote it for India. I wrote it for
my daughter because I figured if she read it, she
would wake up, and that did. It helped her wake up.
(19:45):
And then you know, after that, it's to help other
family members who are going through or what I went through.
I hope nobody goes through what I went through, and
to prevent it from happening. And yes, to raise awareness
because I think these these predators hide in plain sight,
and the more you you shine a light on their
tactics that the easier it is, the safer, the safer
(20:07):
we are, absolutely and do you I know again just
relating back to us having kids in our daughter like
she doesn't complete sentences as well as maybe some of
her classmates, right, and so Janna and I put it
on ourselves and like we feel guilt where we're like,
are we not doing enough? Are we not doing something right?
Where she's a little behind. Going through what you've been
(20:30):
through with India, did you have to overcome those feelings
of guilt? Did you put a lot on yourself initially?
Like throughout all this process, Um, my personality is immediately, Yes,
I felt guilt that I had introduced her to this program,
but I'm The way that I deal with that is
that I I'm I find actionable ways to to counteract that.
(20:53):
So I I went full force into getting around. I
felt responsible for getting around. I felt responsib forgetting her out.
And it's about being accountable as a parent, like you're not.
I can't be blamed for everything, but wherever you can help,
you do. How is India you know, dealt with the
healing process through all this it's been um intensive. I
(21:17):
think for anybody. This is the thing that people don't understand.
You can't leave a cult and move forward. You're still
trapped like it's in your head because they've changed the
way you think. You're still under the influence of the doctrine.
So it takes a lot of work to unravel what
was done to you and to reclaim your ability to
think critically. And that is a process and it's just
(21:41):
been lots of therapy. What was one thing that helped
her the most? Do you think? Um, gosh, you'd have
to ask her that, I mean, because I'd like to
think it you know, it was me, but I don't
think it was. I think it was it was It
was a lot of things. Um. She she met a
(22:01):
lot of people who gave her a different perspective, and
that perspective sort of shattered the cult persona, um like
a watching her blossom was really beautiful and coming back
to herself. Well, I mean, I just appreciate you coming
on here and sharing the story and for being vulnerable,
and you know you're obviously your words and your story
are going to help a lot of people and hopefully,
(22:22):
you know, um, I hope everyone gets your book too,
because I mean, it's it's unfortunately not just a fascinating
made up story. You know, it's real and something that
you guys have been through and others are probably going
through right now. So hopefully this will be the first
you know, look into it and then also the you know,
the help to get out. So we appreciate you. Thank you,
(22:43):
Thank you so much. Both thank you and listeners. Don't
forget to watch the Etrue Hollywood story on this Thanks Catherine,
Thanks you guys. Take care. Halloween is on the way,
which means it's time to break out the rubber Spiders
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you might be dealing with something a little scarier right
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the easy way to compare and buy life insurance. What's up, guys?
(23:53):
What's happening? Mark Easton are you there? I'm here. Eastern
is dealing with other podcast as we speak. He's running
around this building like crazy awesome, good team, go. How
are you guys? Living the dream? Every day day? We're hustling.
When we last left, we had a discussion about Mike's
(24:13):
trip to Mount Kilimanjaro. Has there been any further discussion
on that. No, we got other stuff more at the
forefront that we're working on. That's okay. Well then I'll
be quiet and let you guys go. Mark, please tell
me about you. I just really want to talk about
Mark today. There's nothing. There's nothing interesting about me. I
(24:34):
promise you. Do you have anything, honey, Nope. I really
don't want to be here right now. So I've kind
of gotten that vibe. Actually, we were our hearts on
our sleeves. Mark, What can we say? It's a blessing.
It's a blessing and a curse. I mean, if you
want to talk about it, be my guest, Michael. I
know Mark would love that. When you Mark, I think,
(24:57):
you know, I just want what's best for all of us. Well,
why don't you just take and see how the water fields?
You know what? Okay, here's the situation and this is
I mean, I'll tell you. Well, we give these listeners
some good stuff. Yeah, it's real good. Did my heart
(25:19):
on the floor. It's really good stuff. I'm not saying
that I'm just really no, I know, it's just really
good stuff. Do you really want to talk about this?
I mean, go for it. Already got all our out there,
might as well just keep it on a roll. And
(25:39):
I'm sure people deal with this. So all right, here's
I'll give the the gist of it. Oh no, let
me start on Saturday. On Saturday, um, we had some
friends in town, but about to go out for a
date night. I received this text mess is from this
(26:00):
number I don't recognize. Open it up. It's a picture
of a female and like a message or top off
mhm message from a female with weird writing underneath saying
(26:22):
oh let's try to meet up this time or something
like that. I don't I mean, you brought it. So
this was a wrong number, This was an old Yeah,
but it wasn't anybody I knew. Oh, and so I
(26:47):
see it and I'm like, okay, I know the right
thing to do is to go get Janna, pull her
aside and say, hey, I just see this. I don't
know what the hell it is, but I just need
to let you know because something like this has happened.
Happened like a year ago when when we were in
(27:07):
l a very similar situation nearly identical, and I brought
it to Joanna and I said exactly pretty much that hey,
I just got this. I don't know what the hell
it is, but I just needed to bring it to you.
And she handled it well, she really did. And this
(27:29):
situation Saturday, even though I consciously had that dialogue with
myself saying I know what I need to do here,
I was terrified to do so I started kind of
rationalizing in my head. I'm like, man, we're about to
go out to a date night with like two other couples.
I was like, in the other end, on the other side,
I'm like, we've Jeanne and I have really had a
(27:53):
good run recently, like not a lot of past stuff
coming up. We've been handling situations pretty well, handling triggers
pretty well, talking things out where It's like it really
felt like we were building a lot of forward momentum,
and really majority of our conflicts were around day to
(28:17):
day marital issues, and so the part of me that
one in this situation was like, this is the past
coming back up. I don't want any part of this.
This is not me, Like, get out of here and
delete block. Done all with the intention in general chime
(28:41):
in after I'm done talking definitely about this is I
was like, look, I need I don't want to bring
this up now. I don't any part of it right now.
I feel like a hot potato. I didn't even want
it my text messages. Get rid of it. I talked
to my sponsor usually like every Monday morning, because I
know where he's going, I know where he'll be and
get ahold of him. I want to talk to him
(29:03):
and go from there. With all the intention of Britans,
Janna let her into the situation, telling her why I
deleted it, which was because I just didn't want any
part of it, none of it. And so then yesterday
I don't know what inspired Janna, but she looked she
(29:25):
saw my Apple Watch and saw the text message on there,
so when she compared to my phone, she thought I
was just being sneaky and deleting it. And I understand,
and I truly am empathetic to the fact that her
seeing something that was deleted, that wasn't brought to her
(29:49):
attention by me in a healthy way, is extremely triggering.
And yeah, it's a boundary to not delete things, something
that we we have mutually discuss and agreed on. So
a lot of stuff comes up for her, a lot
of stuff comes up for me, and it's wait, a
(30:11):
couple of sessions about it this morning, and it's just
it's one of those things that's just difficult to navigate.
You have no idea who this person was, no, none,
none at all. And the only thing I can think
(30:33):
of and how this person even had my number was
almost eighteen months ago when I had my relapse and
I was reaching out to numbers of a plethora of numbers,
and which again, which is how this same situation happened
(30:55):
like a year ago. And so it's just it just
sucks because it's it's just as soon as we feel
like we're hitting a good a good, you know, patch,
it's just like my past behaviors, my past actions come
(31:17):
back to haunt me. And then because I didn't handle
it in the way I know I had to, it
made it even worse. So the thinking was, we're going
off for a day night, it's gonna be great. Things
have been so good with us lately. I don't want
to trigger her in any way. Yeah, and I just
like this is so not me. I just don't want
(31:38):
any part of this right now. I don't want or period.
I don't want this life. This isn't the life that
I'm living now. It's a part of your life you
want to bury, and it's rearing its ugly head and
it's like get away, get away, get away, yes, which
is understandable, but not what Jane and I agreed on
on how to discuss these things and handle these things.
(32:05):
And it's beyond hurtful to see Jana hurt and upset
and a few of the things that she feels because
of the things that I've done in the past. And Jenny,
(32:28):
you regularly go through texts I don't I haven't. Yeah,
we've gotten to a fight, um that morning or the
afternoon or whatever, and I just I don't know. I saw.
I will watch things on the counter in the bathroom,
and I just I always have this like really weird intuition.
(32:51):
Every time I've had that intuition, it tells me to
look and I always find something. And when I looked,
I was like, God, damn it, I saw it, and
I just immediately started my heart just fell. I was like,
it's here, It's happened again. I'm such a freaking idiot.
(33:12):
And I immediately called my best friend and I just
was like shaking crying outside and then I texted the
number where I called the number m um, and then
I texted it and it was like please. You know.
It's like it said like sorry, Hun, can't can't um,
(33:36):
can't talk on the phone, like do you want me
to come over? And I was just like, you texted
my husband. I would love to know your correspondence, like
please from woman one woman to another, and I'm just
like as I'm typing this, I was like this is
literally like how is this happening again? Um? And then
(34:07):
like the messages got like really weird and then like
it sent me the same message that it's sent Mike.
And so then it started to think, Okay, maybe this
is like one of those like computer people, Yeah, like
a bottle like computer, because it was like what kind
of boobs do you like? And I'm like, okay, this
(34:28):
isn't a real person. So then I'm like, yeah, they're
not even reading it. They're just like I'm coming to Nashville,
like let's hook up, and I'm just like okay. So
then I like got to that point and I'm like okay,
so maybe he hasn't. This is an actual person, but
maybe he like got on a site because you know,
(34:50):
usually when you sometimes go to sites, those things can
get on your phone and then then you're part of
like that spam thing. So I'm but I'm like, how
would he get on porn sites because he's got coming
in eyes on his things to not have the ability
to go to those places. And so then I called
my sponsor, um Or, she's kind of my sponsor. It's weird,
(35:13):
she's um she's in the program. She's a sex addict,
and so I called her and I just was talking
this through and and the part is is it's the deleting.
It's the because I'm like, if he didn't delete it,
like I like he said, Mike said, like he came
to me before, and I was totally fine with I
wasn't fine with it, but I was like, Okay, this sucks,
but thanks for bringing it to me. It's the sneakiness
(35:37):
of like feeling like he deleted it because I'm like,
I like he saw before. I didn't freak out. I
could understand if maybe I freaked out before and through
a fit, but I didn't. I was okay with it
as okay, as I was. So the part that scared
my sponsor was that you know that he deleted it
and withheld information, especially since that's the boundary and you know,
(36:01):
and so they're like, okay, like you know, this isn't
the smoking gun? What what you know? Do you hire
a p I? And I'm just like, oh my god,
like my whole my whole world is about to just
can crumble again. And I'm like and I just started,
I'm just like, how like this, I know how, but
I just so it's just been to feel I'm just
(36:23):
sick of finding things. I feel like I'm constantly and
it's like some then someone says, well, don't look, but
then it's hard not to look when I have that
intuition to look. And from your standpoint, the coincidence of
the one time you look, yeah, you find something that's
got to be tough, but well yeah, and it's every time,
and then it's like the hard thing too, is a
(36:43):
lot of the times when I do find something, he'll say, no,
I'm sorry, it was just I don't know. But then
there's always something after that, and that's where I'm like, Okay,
now I'm like living in the lava again. When am
I gonna get completely covered by it? Because that's next.
And that's the part that's like, that's the part that's like,
(37:05):
you know, I don't want to live this kind of
life to to know when the like we just moved
in this beautiful house and we had the second kid,
Like we thought so hard, like why why is this
happening again? And that's what I'm so scared of because
it's it's not whether he ends up meeting up with
someone or not. I mean that last relapse, he almost
did and I was going to sign the papers. So
(37:27):
it's like he gets even close to the fire and
I'm gone. It's like and I'm like, because he not
know that and realize that. And I love our family
enough and I know it's not a bar our family,
it's not about me, but that's just where um. But
unfortunately we met or fortunately we had a couples. Well,
(37:48):
so last night I just was like, get out of
the room, you know, out And this morning we had
the obviously a couple of therapists and it was a
new therapist. Like poor guy just got majorly baptized by
fire because um, but you know, and he just was
like you know, gave Mike the opportunity to come forward
(38:10):
and know that I'm going to start researching and looking
into things on the phone bill and just he's like,
can you try not to go all the way down
the rabbit hole? You know, He's like, do you need
to look for a couple of weeks and see? And
that's a hard part because now I have to go, Okay,
was he on an inappropriate site that I don't know about?
Was this just a fluke? Is he really? You know?
(38:33):
I'm like I love you, Mike, but like you're a
good liar, like you passed the light at doctor test,
you know what I mean. Lying. So I'm like, you're
you're charming as how people believe you like you've lied
to Like I mean I've seen you like look me
in the eye and tell me what your truth was,
but it wasn't your truth. Yeah, So it's like I'm
(38:55):
kind of caught and like this weird, Like what do
I believe? How? Was it just a fluke? I don't know?
And that's where I'm just like I kind of just
feel like I'm like I've given enough signs to the
freaking universal, Like do I do? I keep asking for
signs or these my signs, but like I can get
out of dodge. Sorry, this is just really fresh. Don't
(39:18):
be sorry. Of course you don't be sorry, You're the show. No,
But I also am like here with tears in my eyes,
and I the thing that's hard is you're not looking
at each other right now, and you're not speaking to
each other, and your body language is really tough right now,
and you're talking about him, but he's right next to you,
(39:41):
because I'm just not ready to look at me yet
because I don't know what I'm looking. A's okay, that's okay.
What would help you? I don't know. As a thing,
I can't there's nothing that's I'm like, I don't I
don't know, but I just like, why can't you just
like I didn't give you a reason to not tell
me the truth or did not just be like hey,
this came up? Like I just need like in moments
(40:02):
like that, because I always ask I'm like, hey, is
that anything inappropriate? Or I gave him an opportunity to
come to have a safe place, and I like, I
want those moments so bad. I want to see that
he's working his recovery and working the boundaries like that
stuff is so huge for me, which is why I
didn't freak out the last time when he came right, Well, Michael,
what scares you? What scares you to tell her? And
(40:26):
that's just it. It's it's scary, period, I understand, because
there's so much shame because in my mind, yes, even
though I know the right thing to do, it's still
a reminder of the things that I've done, and so
(40:46):
there's just it's there's so much pain, there's so much
fear behind that that the other part of me, it's
just like I don't want her to have to think
of that stuff. What about for giving yourself first, Mike,
and and trying every day because you have so much pain,
(41:08):
And then because of that, it is all over Janna,
and she has to carry so much because you won't
forgive yourself. She can't forgive you until you forgive yourself.
I mean, I've told him I forgive him. I know
you have. And Mike, you are a good person. You
(41:29):
are you both are so beautiful and strong and open,
and I just don't know that you guys know it.
So Janna. I read this article. It's really interesting you
bring this up about the need to know versus the
fear of knowing. And I think that that's something that
(41:50):
that you should think about and talk to your sponsor
therapist about because it seems that that's what you grapple with.
You need to know, but you're afraid to know, and
that becomes a painful conflict for someone and neither is
necessarily I need to know for safety. That's the thing, Like,
that's kind of what I've always when something comes up,
(42:11):
because I want to know that he's because it is
hard for him to tell the truth. It has been
in the past. So it's like to feel to know
that I'm safe in this marriage and to know that
he's not acting out like those are the things, like
those land mimes, that land minds that he gets for
for me to be able to see and to know
(42:31):
that he's doing what he's you know, what people have
told him and how to you know, how to tell me,
And it's like and with me being empathetic and sitting
in it and knowing what he's doing, like that's that
I it's like it it's it's so helpful. It shows
me that he's on the right path of recovery. And yeah,
it gives me security, and he's telling me the truth
(42:54):
and not just deleting things. Like the deleting things just
I mean, it's just whether it's it was a fluke
text sends me right back to him deleting all the
messages that he did with his affairs. I understand that.
I understand that. So it's just it's heavy because I'm like,
and now I just I don't know what, I don't know, Well,
you feel out of control? Yeah, I just I feel
(43:16):
like I'm just like my anxiety level is just like
through the roof. And did the therapist this morning have
any input on that about what to do now? Ah,
to take the space we need and to rely on
(43:42):
what we need to rely on in order to take
care of ourselves. That makes sense. I know. I feel
like Janna has to find the security in herself. That's
the thing. Like I'm when you know, when I got
upset last night, like staring at my house out side
in our driveway, it was I'm I'm secure with me,
(44:06):
but like our relationship and I thought we were. It's
just I felt like it was like a slap in
the face. So I'm not secure in his recovery. But
it's not my recovery, that's the thing. So it's it's
that's the that's the hard part about living with an addict. Today.
I'm not secure. A few days ago i felt secure.
(44:32):
I'm trying to just process everything. It's it's really complicated.
It is, and it's it is, but it's not, you know,
And that's that's honestly, it's that's part of the weight
and the frustration and the pain of it all because
when you look at it, if you put it down
(44:53):
on paper, it's very simplistic. Just all I had to
do was come to her and say, hey, this happened,
so what is your answer? Why you didn't? First of all,
for me, feeling safe and telling the truth is something
that goes back since I was young, Like I have
(45:14):
fear around even being honest because of how it was
received in my upbringing. So that's a very big traumatic
trigger for me and has definitely been my biggest hurdle
(45:34):
in living with integrity and being completely honest and transparent
and and and everything. In all accounts, what I was
telling Mark on why I didn't was because I want
to run so far away from that life of getting
that kind of text message of being reminded of the
(45:58):
piece of that used to be that it's just it's
that shame hit that kicking the dick, and I just
selfishly I didn't want any part of it. And that's
that's the part that's unfair because I took that opportunity
away from myself and from Janna because I wanted to
(46:19):
spare myself and her. But I feel like it was
more of a selfish decision because I was scared. So
when I hear you call yourself a piece of used
to be, you weren't. But that's but that's it, that's
how that's how I I feel, That's how I felt.
That's part of you. Work on that part and forgiving
(46:41):
yourself and knowing then you will trust Jannet. Jane is
fiercely loyal to you, Michael, and you need to be
willing to share with her the worst parts of you.
She will not leave. Wow. Well yes, but if you
would have old her and you are not a piece
(47:05):
of understand you are not. I never learned how to
trust the truth. That's that and that's my trauma. But
it's not on her. She's shown you so much loyalty.
But I also want Jane to when she hears you
call yourself a piece of it breaks my heart. It
must gut her mm hmm. Good guy, right a right,
(47:29):
all right, but you are a good guy. Hate hearing
you say that about yourself, and I would feel the
same way of Janna criticize herself that way. I'm just
sorry you can say that, say it to her. I
(47:50):
am sorry I didn't handle it the way that we
agreed upon and handle it the right way for myself,
are you and for both of us, I'm sorry that
the damage that something like again that seems so simplistic
can cause. I hear you. I just I'm having a
(48:17):
hard time with you're saying that you were gonna tell me,
because it's like you know how many times I've heard
but I was going to tell you. But so I'm like,
you deleted it, like just own that you weren't going
to see. You don't want any part of it that
you just deleted it, don't. I just the saying that
you were going to tell me about it is the
part that I'm just like, I do not buy And
(48:38):
I don't blame you for not wanting to tell me,
not one in that life. I don't. But I'm like
I have a heart because I'm like, you know, many
times I've heard you say, but I'm gonna I was
gonna tell you about it. So after twenty times of
finding things, I don't believe that line anymore. I believe
you deleting it and just being like I don't want
this life. I do believe that, and you Step, I
(48:59):
get that. I totally would get that. But the fact
that you're trying to hide behind saying but you were
going to tell me, I don't get I will I
will not believe you on that. I just don't. And
I can't really hear her, really hear her, because she's
making a really really clear point there, and I understand it,
like I'm totally giving you the opportunity to be like,
(49:21):
you're right, and I you know, even though I said
I was gonna tell you you're right, that is a lie.
Maybe my intentions sure were, but I probably wasn't. That
would make more sense to me that that I can
agree with Before when I hear you before, when we
talked about it, it seemed black and white, and I
(49:41):
I didn't want to like challenge my own integrity of
just outright admitting that I wouldn't my intention. It was
absolutely to bring it up because I know that was
the right thing to do. Do you think in your
heart of heart so you're going to bring it up?
I don't know. Now that's an honest answer like that.
(50:04):
I can actually like my question. My intention and plan
was too. But like you said that, you just says,
I don't know. Do you know why you lied just
now saying when you say I was going to tell
you and Janet that because I doesn't believe. Because I
believe that I do because of the work that I've
(50:27):
been doing, the work that I am trying to do,
I like to believe that I would default and do
the right thing. I don't think there's any answer. Yeah,
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. No,
that's a fairy answer. Are you really going to call
perhaps on Monday? That was my intention, absolutely that that
was that was my intention. Again, but to answer it,
(50:50):
I like to think so that was my intention, But
I don't know. I don't know if I would have
woken up this morning and followed through, I don't know,
And it wouldn't have bothered you at all. It would
just it's out of side and mind you deleted it
and whatever. I can't speak for the situation. I can't
go through and say if this would happen, that would happen.
(51:13):
All I know is that when I deleted it is
because I didn't want any part of it. Now, this
is where I feel like you're trying to trap me
into saying something. See, I told you this, I told
you glider. No, that's just because it's that's you wouldn't
have told me. And I know that. So I just
really want to be done. I'm closing off guys. Sorry, No,
(51:35):
that's okay. I don't want I want you guys to
take a breath. I'm a little nervous about you guys,
just like, no, it's fine. We got our kids, so
we'll just go our separate ways and let be fine.
What can we do for for you, both of you,
Like if I was as brave as both of you
to tell you the ways that I understand what both
of you are saying, Like it's really important because so
(51:57):
many people can relate, even if it's a different example.
It's really powerful. Like I feel truly for both of
you right now, truly, and I hear you both and
I believe you I hope in next week when people
listen to this that they understand it's this is real.
And that's why we share is because we know that
(52:22):
there's other people out there going through either the exact
same situation or like you said, Amy, different topic but similar,
similar details. And I understand too, Make it go away,
Make it go away. And I understand so much of
what Janna feels so much. That's why it's like there's
(52:43):
no answer because you're it's I get it, and you
do need time. Yeah, we love you guys so much.
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