No Plan B

Mike and Jana are still reeling from everything that came to light on last week’s show. Where do they go from here? Can Jana and Mike rebuild their trust and recover from this? 

We get an inside look at the work they’re putting into the relationship during moments of turmoil. 

And for a positive perspective, we talk to NFL legend Bo Eason about the lessons he’s learned about following your dreams. 

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Jane Kramer and Michael Cosson and I
heard Radio and People's Choice Awards nominated podcast What our Team? Well,
hello everybody, we're just like silent, going what's happening? I

(00:24):
think the whole everybody is thinking that, wow, what a
nice what a wow? I think I think everybody. I
don't even know what to say. I'm about to take
a shot of a lemon, ginger and cayenne pepper. You're
gonna say tequila shot at tequila to start this show.

(00:44):
I've never done a shot at Tila Tequila. You want
to take these? I think we're just gonna let you
guys be uncomfortable for a few minutes and then we'll
see how it's going. Hello, So grass, there's no women?
Hy that was bad? Um? Alright, So, I mean obviously

(01:05):
the elephant in the room. UM, I will be very honest.
I've I'm just I have a lot of anxiety around it.
Had an anxiety attack this morning, I think. Um, I mean,
going into last week's episode, we we're not going to

(01:25):
share what was going on. UM. I was honestly shocked
that you shared, Mike because of how real it was.
But I understand why you did, because our whole thing
is that we want to help people. But I think
it was a massive lesson learned for Mike and I
and not be so real time because we weren't united

(01:47):
and we were still It's like, I think it's okay
to share scars, but I think when you have a
wound that's still open, I think that's I see now
on the outside of it, like that was not a
good thing. I think we should have saved that for
another time when we were in a better place. And
I understand that it has helped a lot of people,

(02:09):
and I get that, and I'm so glad that it has,
but it also has hurt worse because of the public
conversation around it and the people and because of where
I'm still at with it. It's made my anxiety worse.
It's made me feel more confused, and so I think

(02:32):
it's just and it's just kind of like put more
salt in the wound. So I mean, looking back, like
I wish we would have waited to share some and
I think that's the kind of a lesson learned for us,
because you know, there's people out there thinking Mike actually cheated,

(02:52):
and it's like girl yeah, so it's like, so it's
just you know, or or the people are like he's
never going to stop eating on you, like you should leave,
like and it's just like they only see the headline
and not actually what happened. And then you know, I
have so many and I love my friends for texting me.
I love people that I haven't talked to in a

(03:13):
while reach out to me. But at the same time,
some of it's been oh yeah, my husband, he relapsed
again too, and I'm just like, and then I start
getting in that cycle of this is the world that
I'm in and this is it's going to keep happening,
and so then I start to just feed the wound,
and you know, to the point this morning where I
was just like, I I just need to take a

(03:36):
break from looking at messages, looking at being so because
I'm like, I just my anxiety and I hope, like
and Mike knows this too, I was like, I don't.
I honestly just don't even know where I'm at, Like,
I don't think he'll I don't know, because it's just
it's hard because he'll always say, well, I'm gonna it

(03:56):
won't happen again. It's like I've heard that so many times,
but I think maybe now he sees how bad that
wound is for me and the trauma of finding things,
whether he did something or not. I just like, I'm
to the point of like a literally a nervous breakdown
where I just can't physically handle it anymore. And that's
not the strength that I want to portray to my daughter,

(04:19):
to myself, to anyone else out there too. So hopefully,
I mean, we've had this conversation, but it's still you know,
It's just that was the risky part about opening that.
Do you agree? Mm hmm. I'm sorry you're going through that.

(04:42):
I mean, I appreciate it. It's just it's just hard
because I'm just like, and you know, I told Michael
the other day, I was just like, I don't believe
that there won't be another time, and that sucks to
like have to feel that because I've just how do
I believe that when I've heard so many times I'll
never do it again. I'll never do it again. So
it kind of puts me in this really awkward situation

(05:02):
and it makes me look weak and to have to
be like continuing to stick around whether he did something
or he didn't, and I believe that he didn't. I believe,
I know it wasn't a real person. I know all
those things, but it's still it doesn't matter. It's just
the the is it weak to stay? Couldn't it be considered.

(05:24):
I'm not saying it's weak to stay. I'm not saying
it's weak to leave. I'm just saying for me personally,
where I'm out and how many times I'm now like
it's weakening me by staying. You say you're you're not
convinced that what happened again? But what you mean by
that is you're not saying you're not convinced you what
cheat again? You're not convinced he won't keep something from
you again? Right? Yeah? And that's and that, unfortunately is

(05:46):
the issue. It's like he's like, I didn't. I was like,
I know, you didn't. I was like, but what is
just the trauma for me is not him acting out
the other women. Sure that would hurt, but the trauma
that I've had in this relationship is the finding out things.
And that's what I just truly I was like, I
don't even care how little it is. That is just
the feeling of that again. Is so traumatic because of

(06:10):
the past that it's just I and from this last time,
like the amount of anxiety and and the like, I
hope you see that I'm not physically able to handle
another episode like that because it's just two it's it's
it just goes back to all the trauma from from
the discovery and it's just it's it's overwhelming, which is

(06:31):
you know obviously why I got upset last week's podcast. Um,
but I think you see that now, yeah, And I
just I think my fear is you know where why
I'm kind of like depressed in a little like anxious
written is because I you know, I've been told that

(06:51):
won't happen again, and I I just fear I don't.
I don't I can't trust that. And I think that's
where my anxiety comes in, is because when I can't
us something, I get more anxious and I want to
be able to trust. And I understand too that people
make mistakes and people I'm like, I'm not asking him
to be perfect, but I need him to understand how
deep that wound is for me. When I discover something,

(07:14):
no matter if he did something or not, that is
just like it's painful and it I I just can't
like physically hold that anymore. So, I mean we've talked
a little bit about it, and it's just it's just
that weird kind of like we're not as close because

(07:36):
I think I'm just it's hard to lean in when
I'm scared of leaning in to someone that I don't
know if I can trust or not. Does that make sense?
So where do we go from here? I mean, you
work through this in therapy as a couple, right, and
that's and that's hopefully you'll be able to get to
that place again. Because what you're saying now doesn't selling

(07:59):
things are great now and it doesn't sound very hopeful.
But is their hope here? That's your question? Answer? No,
it shouldn't just be on me. It's the work that
you know we both have to do. It's not do
you know what I mean? Yeah, So I think. I

(08:24):
mean I just told him I kind of just where
I was at, and like, again, I'm not I need
to see because it's like you're saying, I'll never do
it again, or you'll never put you in that position again.
I can't believe. So I need to see something else
to show me something different. So is it a different
type of therapy. Is it a different type of communication,
Is it a different type of something where then I

(08:45):
can kind of have a little bit more safety around
feeling like I can trust you. Whether you delete, you know,
it's just again. And I know for people that don't understand,
you're like, who cares he deleted it? But it's like
just the again. The trauma and the PTSD from discovering
things a lot and frequently through the past couple of

(09:07):
years is just added up to be so traumatic each
time and wounding that it just doesn't feel safe. And
when I don't feel safe, that's not a good environment
for our kids. It's not a good environment for me.
It's not a good environment from Mike, And I just
want to somehow. What I think, what I'm trying to
find is what what will look different, what's going to

(09:30):
look different that it's not just him saying I won't
do it again, because I can't hang my hat on that,
and I am genuinely fearful that there will be the
next time and how and then knowing this, like I
think that scares me too, because I'm like, I don't
want our relationship to end. I am hopeful and I

(09:52):
want to be hopeful, but I'm also I think I'm
more scared than hopeful because I don't know what I
can I don't know. I don't know, but I guess
I'll let you speak on that. And I didn't know
we're gonna adopt so much into this. Well, I don't

(10:14):
think we really had a choice. Yeah, um, Mike, yeah,
you haven't said much. But you must be hopeful for
this situation, right, you must have? Oh yeah, I mean
I am for sure, all right, for sure. I mean
I told you this morning. I regret. Uh, I regret

(10:36):
that we shared last week. I do. It's done more
damage than it has good hands down sharing it has, yes,
when in the past it's it's brought us together, um,
but this hasn't. And unfortunately it's like I don't even know.
I mean, that's part of the benefit of me not

(11:00):
being on social media is I don't see even a
small percentage of the stuff that Janna has to see
or deal with from comments or headlines or whatever. And
I don't actively look it up because I just don't care.
But knowing what that stuff is done to Janna, not

(11:22):
that she hangs her head on that stuff either, but
it doesn't help the situation. The fact that it's impossible
to ignore that stuff no matter what someone has, the
fact that people are I didn't even know this is
news to me that people are reaching out to Janna
is saying that say whatever, that I'm probably still cheating
or or I'll never stop or what. I'm like, are

(11:43):
you kidding me? But again, those people I don't like,
they're like, sex addiction isn't a real thing. And then
I'm like, okay, like they don't they don't know, you know,
they don't know. Well, Michael, that's not very nice to say.
I don't care. It's not nice to say they thing,
but abolition bullietably, I stay, I stay pretty political, and

(12:09):
I'm just saying, you don't bullietably, you know what I mean.
I think those people are misinformed, and I feel bad
that they're misinformed. I don't hang my hat on that way.
I have a hard time with this, like the people
that kind of if you're bringing it up, you're still
it still has a carries weight with you if we're
being on it. Like the stuff that carries weight for
me is the wives that are like with other addicts.

(12:32):
Those are the things that and again like this is
what's what I think what he's saying is we share
because we want to help. And I think, you know,
obviously with regret with this is we shared too soon
because we weren't united, like I said. But the part
that has hurt and been great At the same time,
I love that people have reached out. I love that

(12:52):
so much. But at the same time reading those things
and being like, yeah, my husband just you know, same thing,
and he lied and I'm just or one didn't lie,
and then it's that kind of back and forth ward.
It's just I love to help, but at the same time,
I'm still dealing with my stuff, in our stuff that
it's that it's hard because it's like I'm hearing of

(13:13):
another husband's relapse and I'm hearing of another husband's you
know this, and it's like, especially with the addiction piece,
it just makes it that much harder. So it's like
I'm trying to be strong for these other women that
are reaching out to me, but at the same time,
I'm like, I'm still in kind of shambles, so and
it's just kind of it feeds it a little bit.
As opposed to when we were stronger with our with

(13:35):
coming out on things, and we were able to be
more solid in it. And so I think because I'm
a little uncertain of our relationship or the the you know,
the if it will never happen again, which again I
doubt the that's that's safety with it. So that's where

(13:55):
that's where it starts to feed into my insecurity and
my anxiety. Is there anything that could make you feel
more secure? I'm trying to sort of think on it,
and I don't know the answer or is it even
working on you where you feel? Yeah, I mean I'm
starting um an E M. D R for just the
trauma around discovery because I think that's such a heavy

(14:19):
piece for me. But um, you know, with Mike too,
I think he's going to try other things that will help,
hopefully in situations and him knowing I think now the
depth of where my trauma goes with discovery, maybe that
will be helpful with him. Not um we're maybe not

(14:40):
just thinking of you know, thinking of himself. I guess
with it too, right, Like I was thinking, like what
if he journals and then you were able to read
that journal, you know what I mean? Where that way
he doesn't have to like Let's say he gets that
text and he writes it in a journal like I
got this text, This is so stressful for me, I
delete it whatever, and then you read that, so that

(15:00):
way the confrontation might be easier on him. I don't know.
I'm trying to think of things that would because it
I understood Mike's position to where he deleted it because
he wanted it to be gone and he didn't want
to hurt you. Yeah, no, I get that. I I do.

(15:21):
I understand that too. It's unfortunate that both can be
you can both, we can both understand both those things. Unfortunately,
there's just that the boundary of which you know things
shouldn't be deleted, and then the repercussions of how I've said,
like finding things is more traumatic for me than the
actual act. Well, and even if your brain understands something,

(15:42):
your heart can still be broken by the same thing. Yeah,
for sure, anything, Mike, Because I feel a little left
out in the in the ocean today. Um M know.
I just again, I was sure how much we're gonna

(16:03):
talk about this, and I think it's just right now.
I Mean, all I can do is be as empathetic
as I can with you and understanding and do whatever
I need to do to continue to create safety around things.
And I'm just I'm having a hard time. And I

(16:28):
you know, I said this the other day when Jane
and I did a quick interview with Billy Bush on Extra,
and I was just like, I'm tired of looking like
the bad guy. And it's you know, and I mean,
I do it to myself with these situations. So I
get that, but it's the fact that things are getting

(16:50):
blown to the degree that they are. It's just it's
just like every man has his breaking point. Again, I stay,
I stayed very very above board and political when it
comes to my reaction to to certain things and in
handling and not acknowledging uh trolls or headlines or just

(17:18):
though if it makes you feel any better, the comments
are Jane is a weak piece of she's so stupid,
she's she's an idiot. First, Like they're being mean to me.
I understand, you're not wanted to feel like a bad person,
like and I get that, but like, just know that,

(17:38):
Like it's not easy on my side either. I'm not
I'm not saying it is. Well, we live in a
t l DR world right now. Too long, didn't read,
and people just glanced at the headline and draw all
the conclusions they need to draw. And I peo don't
even read the headline anymore. They just kind of get
some key words and just make their whole opinion off
of it. Sex. And there was only on that said that,

(18:02):
and it was actually a sports one. What happens is
there was one, but it's all the other ones were right,
it's so loud. Yeah, all the other ones just said,
you know, topless. You know, Janet Cramer finds a topless
photo on Mike's phone. So that's just what they That's
just what they read and then assume. So that's like
what you're saying, like they just read the headlines. Well,

(18:24):
and there's probably that comments supporting you, but again the
negative ones just sounds so much louder. Yeah, and and
and because you know, I tweeted someone else and I
was just like, someone said something about Mike and me
in it, and I said, why don't you listen to
the podcast before placing you know, judgment and spewing hate.

(18:46):
And then they're like, well, you just retweeted that, so
now all your followers are being a bully back and
I'm just like, well, sorry, but yeah, So I think
it's you know, at the end of the day, people
will if they want to invest in I know, the
people that know our hearts and our story and they

(19:07):
want to be there, and we appreciate that. So it's
it's spreading that that we want to continue. Well, I'm
sorry that you're feeling that you regret going public with this. UM.
I do think it is very relatable to a lot
of people. I think a lot of people have hidden
something from their spouse that they thought was completely meaningless,
no big deal, and they end up regretting it later.

(19:29):
And I think everybody's found something suspicious somewhere and and reacted.
So I think that that's really relatable. I'm sorry that
you regret that, UM or having second thoughts, so whateverbody
you think it's helping a lot of people because a
lot of people can relate to this. Yeah, And I
think Mark, and I think Mark said this, but he
even related like when things are so great, you don't
want to have to then put a stop to how

(19:49):
great things are by bringing in bad news. I have
bad news for my wife. I might sit on it
for a day or two until I find the right moment,
you know, because there's a there's a time. Totally get that.
I totally get that. I think again, we're not upset
we shared the story. It's we're upset that we shared
in that time. Sure like live it was like what happening?
Like we wish we would have shared it. Gena said

(20:12):
at the beginning, it's like, it's better when we share
about scars, not open wounds. And what do you think
could help moving forward? You know, is it more therapy?
Is it? You know? I know, Janna, you were looking
at different different things. The m d R I think
looks really interesting. I was just reading about it, and
I know people that have done it that have had
great success with it. We've both done um E m

(20:34):
d R at times, and we're both gonna do a
more intensive, more intensive treatment around the m DR, but
both for our own traumas around things around this scenario
UM just because it deals with two traumas that both
of us have, where mine is trusting the truth and

(20:55):
Jane's is like the discovery and all of that. So
it's that's why this has kind of been so volatile,
is because it's too colliding traumas for both of us
m you know, so that's something we just got to
dive into and do the work around. And and I
was so remember the other day, I was like, I

(21:16):
was like crying empathetically. I was like, I get that.
I was like, I'm sorry that, like mine is the
reverse of it, because I'm like, that must be so
hard and be so scary to come to me and
tell me the truth. Like I have so much empathy
for you that like, that's that is part of your trauma.
I just can't ignore my trauma. That's unfortunately the reverse
side of it, right, And that's that's been That's why

(21:39):
we've a big reason why we've been slow to really
reconnect and get on the same page is because as
soon like we'll both be we've both been empathetic with
each other and we both understand. But then it's like
then we think about our trauma for a second, and
that's still it just they just collide for both of us. Internally,

(22:02):
it's just it's hard. It is really really hard, And
I think, what's scary is it? Like for me? When
I told him, I was like, I think, again, what's
scary is the what happens the next time? For me?
Because I just know I can't and again, no matter
what it is. And I think that's hard because it's

(22:22):
that's but that's my truth with it. You know, one
more question. We can move on from this and I
know you're dying to have there been normal moments over
the past week, or is this tension just always there
and always palpable. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. It's
just been really hard. It's just been it's just been tough. Yeah,

(22:50):
I got a new car, and that was a moment
of happiness. We saw that the little things do help.
I didn't buy a sweater, I got a new car.
It was it was it was a bigger problem, deservingly,
so I know, I was like, I want a new car.

(23:10):
I don't know. I had a therapist that said, sometimes
you just have to sit in it and sit in
the grief and the pain, because a lot of us
to wanna why don't I feel better? Why isn't this
fix feel better? Fix? You know, when it's like you
just have to sit in it, Well, that's just it too, right.
That's coming from two people who have done a lot
of therapy over the years and are both people who

(23:32):
have had crutches in the past, mind being a full
blown addiction of running away from how you feel and
stuff like that. We've both had those things. Everyone kind
of has something. But the fact that we're just sitting
in it, Uh, you know, I think that's not necessarily
a bad thing, kind of to your point, aiming like

(23:54):
sometimes you just gotta sit in it. Yeah, but I'm
ready to like not sit anymore because they're coming here.
The other day, I was like, I'm about to have
a nick nervous breakdown from anxiety, and I don't want
to feel this like I'm but I guess I'm just
like fearful of the next time, which anyone in your
position would would understandably think that what do I hear

(24:18):
on that? And there's the thing, Unfortunately, there's nothing someone
in my position can do or say in this moment
to make it instantly feel better. It's just showing you different,
showing you change, being consistent. You could buy me flowers, maybe, Mark,

(24:41):
I know you, little things go a really long way.
I don't think that anything like you could show me
you love me a little bit more by like writing
me a note little flowers. I don't know. I'm just
like you're not acts of service. No, you cleaning the
house does not do anything I tried to I tried
to show you today this morning things but by taking

(25:04):
the kids physically out of the house at seven thirty
in the morning so you could sleep. I mean, I
appreciated it, but that's not how I received love. That's
how I received it is that's not how I received love. Well,
we are gonna not to cross promote, which means we're
going to cross promote. Um, we are going to die.

(25:28):
Since we canceled last week's episode due to everything because
we are too fresh in things. We canceled our last
thursday's Telly you are Telly in Perfect Harmony series because
I was about to have a panic attack. So this Thursday,
we're gonna do uh live head on conversation about all
of this, um, and we're not like about it. We're

(25:50):
gonna answer questions. So you guys have questions about your
spouse or your it's gonna be around the topic of
keeping secrets of all of that and had to hand
to it. So we are going to address this. We're
going to talk about things around this topic. UM. So
if you guys want to come interact with us download
the teliat t E l I E imperfect harmon us

(26:11):
our show and we'll we'll have a sit down about it. Well,
sorry about us Thursday. Let's take a break, Let's get
out of our world and let's talk about somebody else's world.

(26:35):
So mark different emails or anything for us I do.
I hope this doesn't make things worse. The subject line
is he won't stop lying. Ah, this is from Jessica. No,
it says this is totally different. This is a totally
different situation. I just thought out. My boyfriend of three
and a half years, while we were going through a
rough patch, he unblocked his AX and started texting and

(26:56):
face timing. He says he was lonely and needed someone
to talk too. I found out through her messaging me
and telling me everything. When I first asked him about it,
he denied everything and said, just block her. You know,
he was doing the gaslight and thing, Oh she's crazy,
just block her. But then she sent me the FaceTime
pictures and the screenshots and the text conversations, and that's
when he admitted finally to yeah, he was facetiming and texting.

(27:17):
Well duh. She also told me that he went over
to her house on the fourth of July. We were
together on the fourth of July. Things were fine. They
both say nothing physical happened, But I don't believe either
of them. I think there's more that they're not telling me.
Do I keep pushing them for proof of the truth.
I don't know how to ever trust him again because
he just keeps lying about everything. I feel like I'm
going to be a total hypocrite but leave. But it's

(27:44):
not really hypocritical, it's really not I mean kind of
he won't stop lying, you know what I mean? Yes,
did he call her during a rough patch? Did you
say that was the first part, is that he went
to her house during a rough patch. But then she
found out that he was a place in the fourth

(28:05):
of July and things were fine. Look, you three and
a half. You need proof for something what you know?
That's a thing. You don't need proof for what you
already know and you know. So why do you want
to continue to hurt yourself with that? Michael m Um, Yeah,

(28:28):
you know me, I do that thing that's like good
bad of the relationship is good and is bad. That's
not that bad. But this it sounds like she's overwhelmed
trying to find proof of him cheating, which is being
with this other woman cheating or not. And that's why, Well,
I'm interested in why the X would send her. So

(28:50):
the ex girlfriend was sending her all the messages and
screenshots and stuff, but then she said that they weren't
being physical. I thought to Ward two, why would the
ex send all that stuff? But then that's what she's
going to withhold, So that makes me want to honestly
think that they aren't being physical. Regardless, the whole situation

(29:11):
is inappropriate and wrong. Right, he's still sneaking around with
her behind his girlfriend's back, right, But it's like her friend,
that's weird to me. But because she jealous? Why what
do you mean? I find it? And that the X
called the current girlfriend, It's like, what's that about me?

(29:36):
And something I would never do? Yeah, she doesn't want
to cheat with this guy, but she wants him single.
Yeah same here here, here, right, So it's like why,
I mean, why all over the place. It's not cool
and Jessica knows this. I edited out a few more
examples of him not being honest with her just to
make it a shorter email for air. I mean it's

(29:57):
time to go. Yeah, yeah, that's I mean. Dad Mark says,
say goodbye, and daughter Janna agrees. We're all laughing, just
faking it till we make it. I also like that
we have a guest coming in, but we have to

(30:18):
just act like we're fine. We are love. It is
going to be great. I'm so excited for Bow. He
seems I like. I mean, he's like a motivational Speaker's
motivate us to be better. He's all about plan a
no foremost football player. We're gonna have a good, good
time with him. Yeah, it's gonna be fine. I'm excited. Fine,
it's gonna be motivating. We're gonna leave here feeling great,

(30:40):
energized and no plan b's and no plans, just you
and me baby. And people Choice Award because if you
listen last week, you know they deserve it. I really,
I gave tears, gave heart break. If that doesn't give
us something, they're paying for your listening pleasure. Seems like

(31:04):
we deserve a People's Choice Award. Yeah, So if you
guys don't mind going on giving us a little some
sympathy votes, this is the last week to vote. Give
us some good out of this. It ends Friday. It's
pc A dot eonline dot com. Maybe Tony can give
us some love wish well thinking from your own viewers.

(31:26):
All right, bows coming in, let's get him alright. So
in case y'all didn't know it's the hundredth year of
the NFL. That you didn't know that, it's like everywhere
every Sunday, the hundredth anniversary. It's on the field, it's
on the uniform. Everybody cares. It's America's game. Who cares? Anyways?

(31:51):
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(32:33):
Number is the official sleep and wellness partner of the NFL.
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sleep number dot com. Slash Janna, all right, I'm super
excited for our guests today. You know, we have a
lot of a lot of different kind of guests on

(32:53):
the show. Very seldom do we get an exper athlete
that I can sit here and wrap with. So I'll
let Joanna, Honey, I'll let you chime in every now
and then, wag wasn't good enough for you? Was looking for? Okay,
but we'll get into we'll dive into everything right now.
But please introduce Mr bow Easton here on the show today.

(33:14):
You're like, whooo alright, bro, So give our listeners a
little bit of your backstory. You elevator pitch. Elevator pitch
played in the NFL. So, my brother, how many years
did you play again? Five? Oh? Same asn't you? Mike? Yeah? Yeah,
I was looking at your guys stuff earlier today, which
teams did you play for Sorry. I got drafted by

(33:34):
the Houston Oilers in four and then played with them
for four years and then got traded to San Francisco.
In Oh, San Francisco, who's the Radcrest? Okay, they were
actually why we don't do podcast? The Raiders were actually
l a at that time. Yeah, that was also one

(33:57):
so give me a break here. Yeah, that's right. You're
born in eighty three. Just saw that. That's so good
and uh and so when I got done, um, like
we all do so soon, you know, Um, I wrote
a one man play and it went to Broadway and
it became this hit and it got bought as a
movie and it ran for a fifteen years. Run to

(34:19):
the Litter. It's a one man show. It's actually like
a canaanable tight story between my brother and I actually,
and it's kind of semi autobiographical about two guys, two brothers,
who grew up best friends and then eventually they are
pitted against one another and have to destroy each other
to make their dreams come true. But they happen to

(34:39):
be best friends, so it's uh it. It got a
lot of attention in New York and it was it
was great and then uh, while I was there in
New York, business people kept coming to the show and
they knock on the you know, like titans of industry
knock on the stage door, which never happens, you know,
and on Broadway and they're like, hey, can you bring

(35:00):
this show to my to our company? And Donna and
I for years were like, no, what are you talking about.
This is a theater piece. We don't bring this to companies.
And they go, no, no, you got to bring it.
And five six years we said no. And one time
one guy came in and goes, hey, it's the hundredth
year of my company. I'll fly your family. We had

(35:22):
two little ones at that time. I'll fly your family
to Hawaii and you'll you'll do this play and and
then he said what they paid, and we go, oh,
maybe we do do that. That sounds fine, And so
we did it, and we did it like in plain
clothes instead of like the outfit that I normally wear
on Broadway. So did that and then that part just

(35:46):
really blew up, like the speaking area really blew up
as far as companies go and all so, and then
that just led to the book, which your book is
called There's no Plan B for your A game. And
what's what's the best message, um that you've given that book?
Is that about that? Like, is it not having a
Plan B? Yeah? I mean that. You know. The reason
the title is is what it is, having no Plan

(36:08):
B was because my mom was like that, you know,
and uh, I just remember I'm the youngest of six kids, right,
So I have four older sisters and one older brother.
And I had this dream when I was a kid,
and I wrote it on this piece of paper that
I wanted to be the best safety in the world, right,
not even really knowing what a safety did. I only
knew they stopped people, they tackled people. That's all I knew.

(36:30):
So I wrote that up. I followed it. But on
the way to following it, you know, you're getting rejected
left and right. Like I wasn't even recruited to go
to college and play football. And so my mom's friends
would come over to the house and they would I
remember them sitting, you know, with my mom, having a
glass of wine and they'd say, you know, um Bo

(36:51):
and Tony that's my brother's name. They have these big dreams,
you know, but we don't know any pro athletes and
there's not any from our area, so maybe they should
have a plan B. And my mom would take these
ladies and throw them out of our house and slam
the door and never to be seen again. And right then,

(37:11):
and I was young, and I go, man, this is serious, right,
so she knows. I just I didn't even know what
plan be meant at that time, but I said, if
my mom's so serious about this and she throws her
best friends out of the house, then this must mean something, right.
And that's where the title came from. It's just we
just didn't have any options. And I think, you know,

(37:32):
these days, a lot of us go, well, man, I've
got a lot of options. I want my kids to
have a lot of options. And I always say, I
don't know. Well, this is the fight that Michael and
I get in a lot because so I didn't go
to college because I didn't want to plan B for
what I wanted to do. So I was just like,
when I graduate high school, I'm moving to l A.
I'm going to be an actress, and I don't want
to plan B because if I have a plan B,

(37:52):
then I'm gonna end up being the accountant that I
go to school to be or you know, get my
degree in And you know, my parents, my dad did
not love that. All My mom was like, go go
go live your dreams and because everything she wanted to do.
And so, you know, with our kids now, I'm like,
if Jolie comes to me and says, you know, I
don't want to get a degree because I want to
go do this, and I'm I can't tell her you

(38:14):
can't do that because you need a plan B. If
she's going to go move to l A and be
an actress or wherever she wants to go, or I can't.
How could I tell her, no, you have to get
a degree when I didn't and I'm doing amazing, you know,
And she's like, well, what if it doesn't work out.
I'm like, well, that's not the mindset that you should have. Well,
it always works out, that's the thing. If you have
a Plan B, then Plan B is working out for sure.

(38:37):
And it's just how human beings are made. You know,
we're going to go to the road that's easier. So
if you have a Plan B, which is always easier,
I'll fallback plant plan it gets hard, they're gonna start
turning towards and I love just seeing the title I've
loved so much because you know in the world that
we came from. When when in professional athletics, so many
people I feel like just only talk about Plan B.

(38:57):
I remember when I first I signed as an undrafted
free agent out of college with Jacksonville, and I saw
my contract. Before I even step foot on the field,
I had relatives and families saying, so, what are you
gonna do after you're done playing? I'm like, what do
you mean? I was like, this, that doesn't that has
no relevance. Right now, it is like, this is what

(39:18):
I'm doing. I have to put everything into the into
this and for the exact reason that you're saying, otherwise
it won't happen this and so. But it's hard now.
It's difficult having two young kids like we have and
now thinking like my parents, because my parents are always
they're very conservative. That's like, you know, when you findance
the house, you do thirty year fixed mortgage. You we've
had the same career for thirty years. It's like, you know,

(39:38):
that's what they do. And they always preach education, which
I understand now as a parent because I'm like with
our kids, I don't want them. I want them to
be somewhat educated in their choice. I don't want them
just to have a dream. One day they wake up
and say they want to do something, they take off
and go do it. Have some thought, have a purpose
behind it, have the purpose behind it. That's one thing.
But it's difficult because I already anticipate that struggle when

(40:00):
the kids come of age. It's like, we're both able
to be that, you know, part of that one percent
in our respected careers who didn't have Plan b's, But
now as parents, how do you So have you guys
approached that with your kids? Yeah? That well, a lot
of the book you'll see is that has the kids
all in it, because the kids have really big dreams

(40:21):
and they're completely unreasonable. What you they have to be right?
You know, people always go, well, you should be reasonable
about your dreams. I'm like, well, their dreams. Want to
be reasonable about it. I mean, look, it's the same work.
If you're gonna do a have a mediocre life or
have a have be the best in the world, that's something.
It's it's the same kind of work. You still gotta work. Um,

(40:45):
why not have the big unreasonable one? Why not have
the one that you dream about, and that's where people
do you know, and people are just trying to protect
you or protect me, or protect you from yourself. You know,
they're going, yeah, I don't know about moving to l
A and becoming an actress. I hear that. It's really hard. Yeah,
that is hard. That's why I'm going. Digging ditches is
hard to you know, when somebody's going to do that

(41:06):
work right, And people are always trying to talk you
out of your own dreams. So the kids are huge
in the book. I have a twelve year old son.
You'll love this, Michael Um. He's when he was six,
he drew up his twenty year plan, right, so he's
seen he's seen mine, my piece of papers fifty years
old now and I still have it. So he saw

(41:28):
it at six and he goes, Okay, I'm gonna draw
mine up, and he drew up. He wants to be
the first guy ever to play in the NBA and
the NFL. So that's never happened. Yeah, so it's not
it's never happened, So we might as well be saying, oh, Axel,
his name is Axel, Axel, You're gonna be the first
guy to walk on Mars, you know, because it's just

(41:50):
never been done. And since he's been six and now
he's twelve, he has been training and I mean serious,
He is dead serious and it's his decision. Yes, he
wants to do it, that's right, and the whole family
just got behind it. And when strangers come over, they

(42:11):
always want us offten the blow too, just like they
were trying to do with you guys. They go axel so,
so wait a second, axl um, which one do you
like better? And he will he's smart kid. He doesn't answer.
He goes, I like them both, and they're going so
or you know, your your dad played NFL and your
uncle was a quarterback in the NFL, so maybe NFL

(42:32):
And he's like, now I'm doing both and he won't budge.
Do you do you think he can? Really? Oh? Yeah, yeah, no, no,
he's he's he's uh but what about when he's like
in his twenties and he'll say like and you're like,
all right, the kid's not like he's not cut for it.
Then what well that he'll get his heartbroken and that'll

(42:56):
be it, but he won't have a p But then
so then what happens? No, no, because there's no plan B,
but A turns in if you doesn't work on something else. Ye,
well he reveals the right a right. It never it's
not like a soft braiding on the curve. Yeah, it's uh,

(43:21):
you know. And look, here's the thing. If you don't
have any options, like you know, that's why if you
look at elite athletes, the ones that we admire the most,
the ones that really play, they didn't have an option.
It's not like they were, you know, could do do
anything else. It's not like they're they came from a
wealthy family that can just fund them all the way through.

(43:42):
You know that that's why pro athletes are come from
poor backgrounds, you know, because there's not an option and
you got to get your family out of what they're in.
So we're just doing the same thing with that. So okay,
let's do this. Let's figure it out. Hockey, right because
hockey unless it's hockey, because all the gear and hockey
is expensive. I mean, yeah, you're not. You don't have

(44:04):
the inner city we got. She's marrying Mr Gretzky son
over there, so yeah, so that my kids go to
the same school. Yeah yeah, yeah, Oh that's so funny
named after Wayne. Amazing school. Yeah, cool school, right, every
time we drive by, I'm like, you went to high
school here? Yeah, I know it's so cool. But yeah no,

(44:26):
So yeah, hockey is expensive. Hockey is very expensive because
I remember, like figure skating, it's like my skates with
three thousand dollars back then, Like hello, yeah, that's so expensive. Yeah.
So do you think today's society just with there's so
many opportunities for for these young guys coming in into
any professional athletics, is that a good thing? Is it
too distracting? I mean I'm kind of torn in between

(44:47):
because it's like you can help one thing, can help
generate the other, but then where's their focus getting drawn
to it? More of off the field stuff or on
the field. So do you think it's been beneficial or
more kind of harmful for those guys and they're in
their playing career. I think it's harder today just because
all the distractions. I mean you look at when I played.
We didn't have cell phones, right, so there was no
Instagram and you weren't you weren't building a brand. You

(45:09):
were just trying to win a game, you know, for
your city. Yeah, it was all sports, So the level
of play was really high and very dangerous and violent. Right.
And then you know, as you watch this developed, like
I'm even watching it with my kids, but you'll start
to see, oh, this athlete isn't really concerned about winning this, uh,

(45:32):
the NBA Championship. They're more interested in building their brand
or getting you know, Facebook or Instagram, whatever they're getting,
whatever they're building, you know what I mean. It's a
huge distraction because now and I've I've talked to the
guys in the locker room and they said, first thing,
the first thing we used to do when it came
in the locker room with if you lost, everyone's like, man,

(45:55):
you know, everybody's upset, people are crying, people are gonna
lose their jobs. And if we won, everyone was drinking
beer and were celebrating together. Right. But now, yep, everyone
goes to their phone and their separate you know quarters,
So it's all separate. So it doesn't have that team
building thing that we had. You know. So I'm watching

(46:18):
my son go through this now and I'm like, going, man, listen,
And there's a piece in the book. It's a chapter
in the book that's all about distractions. These days, which
is another you know, it goes right back to the title.
What you were talking about, Janet, is Look, if you're
not playing a big enough game, this world's going to
distract you. Because this world is really good at it.

(46:40):
You know that the entertainment world is good. I mean,
they're good at having you watch and listen to their stuff, right.
But I'm saying, look, Act, so if you're gonna make
this thing come true, you're you're going to have to
be the guy. You're not a fan of other guys
and other gals. You are the guy, right, So you
have to take that on in your own life. So

(47:03):
you have to play such a big game that like
he doesn't play video games, right, but all his buddies
they play video games all day. And I'm just going look,
acts a watch, watch how many hours that is per
day that they're distracted and you're focused on your dream. Now,
those hours are going to add up after twenty years,
and it won't be a fair fight in twenty years,

(47:24):
you know what I mean. That's what I want my
kids to know. And like my daughter who's fifteen, Eloise,
she wants to be the best pastry chef, right, So
same thing with her. It's just it's just a different discipline.
The principles are the same. Where you want to be
the best tight end or the best safety, or you
want to be the best pastry chef, it's the same thing,
like no options. Can you put your eggs in different baskets?

(47:47):
So still have the same dream but still be able
to do different things. Is it spreading too thin? I
think it is. I like to go one thing at
a time and then that always reveals the next path.
So you couldn't still stay on the one and like
still do it, but you have, Like I bet you could,
But I think you have to learn the principles of

(48:08):
mastery first. You know, I love this saying. Um, if
you master one thing, so you're a tight end. Yeah,
so the position of tight end or voice singing? Right,
you master your own voice, You master the plane of
a position so specific to you, to you, Um, if

(48:29):
you master one thing, you master all things. So when
I went from being the best safety to wanting to
be the best stage performer, I sat down with al
Pacino because he was the was the best stage performer
of our time, and I said, dude, I want what
you've got, Tell me what to do. I know how

(48:50):
to do it as at a position in football, but
how do I do it here? Given I have no experience?
And he laid out, like fifteen years right, what I
had to do, And basically what he said was the
same thing that you and I did, the same thing
that you probably did jan and which was spend. He
just basically said, you have to spend more time on

(49:12):
a stage, your ass on a stage, more than any
other human being in the next fifteen years. And if
you do that and you play you, you say the
classic words, you say the classic text, you'll end up
at the top because no one will be able to
compete with you. Now, that was years ago, that was
so science. Now they've done all kinds of studies and

(49:33):
all kinds of science to prove that that's exactly right.
That's one the case, regardless of discipline, regardless of it's
safety or best stage performer or playwright or or singer,
it doesn't matter. It's all the same. Um, this one study.
You guys will love this book. And how old your kids.
We have a almost ten month old baby boy, at

(49:57):
three and a half year a little girl. Oh great,
you guys, they're so young. This is perfect. There's nothing
more fun than raising little champions, you know, because but
I'm scared though with the boy, just because I don't
want him to feel like he can't be emotional or
he has to be tough, so that he's my biggest
challenge with him, I think, so trying to not make

(50:17):
him be too hard on him because I feel sometimes
feel like him following in is like father's foot sets
are being too hard. I'm like, no, like, let's be little.
I don't want to be I don't want to raise
it softie. But at the same time, I feel like
that balance is gonna be a tough one to walk
for both of us. I know, just my sense of
you guys, I don't worry about that at all, not
at all the same with us. I mean, look, she's

(50:37):
the one who's my wife, don She's the one who's tough,
and and you know, there's a theory that if you
go back through the Spartans and they call him Spartan moms,
go back through all the wars that have ever been fought,
and every elite, elite performer there's ever been it was
because of the strength of the mom, not the dad.

(50:59):
The dad at is basically the cheerleader, like go get them,
and the mom can't buckle. And as soon as the
mom buckles, now that country can't win a war. And
this goes all the way back into the Spartan ages.
And it's crazy that that that the Spartan moms were
so tough, and so you gotta go and don't come

(51:20):
back unless you're on that shield, you know. And so
that's that's the strength of any army, any team, any athlete,
any performer. It's the mom, always the mom, because they're
just unbending. They don't like I get I don't know
if you're like this, but when my kids get hurt,
like I've had a lot of surgeries, right, but when

(51:42):
my kids get hurt, I free. I don't like it.
Like I'm like afraid they're gonna be like when they're
bleeding and stuff. And Dawn's totally fine. My wife's like,
totally fine. Just rub it, you know, rub it and
get off, you know, put some dirt on it. You're good,
get over here. And that our daughters three and a

(52:03):
half going on thirteen, so right now we're probably both like, gad,
you'll be all right. I'll be like new baby boy,
and he's ten months almost ten months. You know, it's
interesting what you're saying about kind of about the mindset.
It's and I'll tell you what with all of the
type of personalities that you know, we've all I'm sure

(52:24):
been around, especially in our professions, I've never met someone
in my life who can master multiple things better than
my wife. In all honesty, I've never seen someone where
as many hats as she does and does it with
like unwavering commitment and performance on everything that she did.
It's fascinating and frustrating for me to watch because I'm

(52:46):
like you where it's like when I do something, I
have to do just that because that's how all I've
done my entire life is when I'm doing one thing,
I put everything I have into this thing. When that's done,
I can do the next thing. And which is frustrating
to her because we work in a lot of different
projects right now. You know, we have this, we have
a show online, we have a docu series, we have
another project that we're working on. All we all these

(53:07):
different things that each day we might have to do
a little bit of all of it. And it's she's
been She's able to do it. Without even blinking, And
I'm like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on, I need
a second here. I mean, you know, but it's just
it's that is my mindset, and it's but I think
it's important. Like I said, I think jan is just
an anomaly. I think she's just a miracle worker somehow.

(53:30):
But I feel like that is how I personally have
to be. Otherwise everything I do will be mediocre. Ye, exactly.
Our relationship dawns in mind is exactly like yours. If
she can do it. I remember her watching her when
the kids were little, which you're probably going through this now,
where cooking breakfast, nursing a baby, running my career, you

(53:55):
know what, and producing the play all at one time
with a phone and and I'm my, I I gotta
take the garbage out and that's the one thing I
can do, you know. So it's true. I think that's true.
Male female? Is we gott? How do you bring the

(54:15):
A the plant, not bring the Plan B eight into
your marriage? Um, the same same principles. Is you being
the best singer in the world, Are you being the
best tight end in the world? The exact same principles.
You have to make a Declaration of that's what you're
gonna do. You know, no different than the Declaration of Independence.
It's just the same. You declare what you want and

(54:37):
that always comes true. Here's the problem. People just don't
do it. People think their marriage is just gonna work out.
You know, that doesn't happen. You know, those don't. It's hard,
you know, it's it's a it's a it's a commitment.
It's no different than than your career. You know. It's like,
this is what was what we're going to build together.

(54:57):
That's it sounds like that's what you guys are doing too.
What we've done is really like we're good at building
stuff together, like and simple things like our home. You
like building our home and then our building those our
three kids and developing them, and then building our play
and building the movie and then building a speaking career

(55:18):
and build we build it and now the book. Things
that because she's managing your everything. Yeah, because that's like yeah, same,
you guys would still be uh yeah right, doing one thing,
doing that one thing. But it's I mean, it's it's
true though. I mean, that's that's what you're saying. I mean,

(55:39):
that's you have to be the best, you know, the
husband and the wife, and you guys are doing it
together and noticing each other strengths and weaknesses too. And
I was going to ask, how do you guys work together?
Because because Jane and I are two different people, we
have two different mindsets, we have two different working styles
depending on the project. Have you all faced challenges with
working together and on how do you fight through this? Not?

(56:03):
We rarely argue about business stuff, you know. And she's
she's always been on the production side, and I've always
been on the stage side. Um, but now like the
world's calling more for her to lead, to be out front,
you know. I mean, she's always the leader, but she's
kind of backstage leader, you know what I mean. Um,

(56:25):
But I think, um, we're really good together. Um. We
don't really argue about stuff. She handles stuff that I
don't want to do, and I handle stuff she doesn't
want to do. So it's just like playing your position,
you know. I'm you know, like you know you're gonna
lose when the offensive linemen want to play quarterback, you know,

(56:46):
because now no one's playing their position. No one's happy
with their position. Same thing in marriage, when people want
to play the other one's position and start to get
all out of balance. Now you're all screwed up. Okay,
remind me ask you on that. Then, this is just
from our personal experience. When you say, you know, Donald,
take care of things that you don't want to You'll
take care of things she doesn't want to do. You
guys put pressure on each other for the timeline of

(57:07):
when those certain things are accomplished. Yeah, I mean we
always there's always a you know, there's always a deadline,
like you guys, right, Yeah, is that what you're doing? Yeah?
Or is it like you know, saying what he's trying
to call me out of, Like I like things to
be done yesterday, and so when I asked him do something,
it's like, it's shocking to me that takes him a

(57:27):
week when I'm like, I would have done it two
days ago. Does that sound familiar, sweetheart? Yea, my wife.
My wife is nodding. Um, that's exactly. I think it's
the male female, which is why it's gonna work. That's
why it works. You know, if you're all the same,
that does not work. That's why, right, it just doesn't.

(57:50):
The reason you're attracted is the opposite, Like you know
that's just how it goes. Like you somehow deep inside
you just love that he's like can do one thing
and do it well. I don't know if I love
at all. Actually, it's like one of the least things
I love. How boring would it be if like you
never had to remind me of anything? Sarah? I was

(58:12):
really quiet, this is we're good right now, and I
just like, you know, no, but I I yeah, I
love being doing I think it's good to be different
to your point. Yeah, that part's good. Yeah, opposite to tract.
That's how it goes, going back real quick. So when
you retired and you got into doing stage and everything,
did you have a background that How did you know
when you got out because it seemed like it was

(58:33):
a pretty quick turnaround to you going from football into
this is what I want to do? Yeah, how did
you know so quickly? It's like bomb doing this. This
is what we're doing this girl, you know what. I
was being wheeled off the field in Orange Bowl in Miami. Yeah,
and uh it was my seventh knee surgery. And as
I was being I was on a stretcher and I
was being wheeled off, and um, I was twenty seven

(58:56):
years old, and I just remember going, oh my god,
you know what am I gonna do? And I remember
like having arguments like with God, you know, like as
I'm being wheeled off, going what the hell, man, I
the one thing I do great is run and you
keep taking these legs away like I was having that
kind of and I thought to myself, I go, look,
I've trained myself for twenty years to be the best

(59:18):
at this one thing, but this one thing is not
does not cross over well to the civilian world, which
in those days, you can really hurt people as a safety,
you can really take shots at guys. And so that
was my job, right, So I figured, man, if I'm
not going to have a career in anything, and I
thought of in the very next moment, I thought of

(59:42):
watching plays. And I've never been into play, but I
had seen plays before, not necessarily acting, just plays, you know,
being performed. And I was like, man, that is so
cool how people can express themselves and it's not even them,
they're playing a character. And I never studied it, it
didn't really know much about it. But after I had
that surgery, after I went through a year of rehab,

(01:00:03):
I went I moved to New York, and I just
got in every class I could get in. Just I
followed the same principles. It took me to get to
the NFL, same principles, and that's when I met al Pacino,
started studying and eventually wrote the play, and then the
play took off. Um, I just followed the same thing.
It took years, took a fifteen years, you know, to

(01:00:24):
write it and to have it. Uh Don produced it
and and she's producing the movie. So uh of course,
because she's a bad as That's right, That's right. So
that's that transition was. It worked out pretty good. It
just took a long time. And it came out of
fear because I thought, Man, how am I going to
express myself the same way I did on NFL field,

(01:00:45):
because that that's legal, you know, it could hurt people,
it's legal. And I was good at that. And now
I got to enter the civilian world. What am I
gonna do with myself? You know? How am I gonna
avoid prison? And I said, so, I thought, I figured,
if I can express myself on the stage, it'll be
the same thing. It'll be the same exact thing, you know,
a little bit different discipline. So did it. That's awesome. Yeah,

(01:01:08):
that's fun. But where can our listeners find you? Yeah, well,
my website is Boston dot com. The book. There's no
plan B for your A game that they can go
to bow easton book dot com. Okay, and that just
and that just hit the national best seller's list. Yeah,
a bunch of best living yea. Yeah, it's very cool. Amazon.
You can get it on Amazon to the I mean

(01:01:31):
even got it on Amazon or wherever you buy your books,
Barnes and Noble. Um, Yeah, it's everywhere. Perfect. There is
no plan B for your A game. That's right. Words
to live by. Seriously, it worked for work for me,
work for you, work for this room. I love it.
That's right. Thanks, thanks for having to Thanks for coming out.

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(01:04:54):
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