The Shirtless Wonder

You may have seen the news, but Jana has a new man in her life! She's finally ready to spill all the intimate details about her relationship, and reveal her biggest fears about the future. 

Plus, Jana connects with a member of Betrayal Recovery Trauma to find ways to heal after experiencing infidelity and gaslighting in the past. 

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast.
Hey guys, welcome to wind Down. It's just so happened,
and we just so happened to have Mark here with us.
Of course Eastern and Katherine and Riley. Everyone's on. Hey guys,
how you guys doing great? Really good? Thank you. I
just got news that my daughter passed her driver's test.

(00:24):
She has permit, her learning permit. It took her three
times that she was very stressed out, three times a charm.
Did she fail the test or the driving This is
just that the written test to get your permit. Okay,
I failed that too a couple of times. That's what
I hear from a lot of people. But she's fifteen
and a half, you know, so those I was never

(00:45):
a good test taker because I would be like, well, technically,
because I always look at the other side of things,
like Devil's Advocate if this was It's like, it's like,
well it could be that, and it could be that,
you know, so I always and I was that's so confused.
I hated taking tests, which is then why you know
teachers put here. I was like, can I do an

(01:05):
extra credit project? And they're like some people look down
in the teacher's pet element of school. I think it's key. Honestly,
I got way better grade than I deserved because I
became very friendly with the teachers one thousand percent. I
mean I barely graduated high school, but I think it
prepares you for real life. Let's just be honest. Yeah,

(01:27):
it's just only smart. I mean I tried. Like my
math teacher was like, I see you trying so hard
that I'm going to just give you, like I think
a chief credit. Yeah, just to like pass you because
like I know, you're never going to be good at
matha and you're never you're not going to college. So
I was like, yep. We were in Hawaii over Christmas,
and my daughter, uh, we're a group of ten and

(01:50):
some wanted to go to Pearl Harbor and some had
no interest in going to Pearl Harbor. And my daughters like, oh,
I'm one to Pearl Harbor because it's really going to
impress my history teacher because they're studying World War two
right now. I'm like, that's it. That is the right mindset,
and do whatever you can to get on your teacher's
good side. One thousand How was that? I remember you
had a little family. There were some squabbles along the way,

(02:11):
and it turned out great. We had a wonderful time
and everybody, everybody, no complaints whatsoever. It was wonderful. That's awesome. Yeah,
that's lovely. You look very nice by the way your
face looks there. Did you get it? Like you looking
at a facial little hand? You know, zoom has a
little feature in there that you can you jack it
all the way up and it makes you look better?

(02:31):
It does not? It does? I mine cranked? How did
we not know? How did? Yeah? I was like, because
you look real nice right now? In that California much
that is called touch up my appearance and mine is
at one percent? What have I not known that? I'm
gonna have to find that touch up? I do not
see that anywhere. Okay, well, thank you. It's still nice

(02:54):
of you to say, of course. So how you guys
doing well? Let's get into it enough. So we had
our revelation this week. Everybody's talking about it. Let's talk
about it. I have no idea we're talking about. Well,
there was some post this week in the media about

(03:14):
you having a new man in your life. The name
Ian has been out there. I don't think I'm breaking
any news here. Uh, he is a fitness instructor. Not
that was well, he sure looks like it. I mean
the description works definitely ripped. He's got great a great body, yes,

(03:37):
but he's not a fitness instructor. He's the own shirts.
Because that's like the big topic. Does he ever wear shirts? Listen?
That has probably been the funniest thing that I've in
my d m s because it's like half the people
are like, does he own shirts? The other half of
people are like, oh yeah, keep it off, like his shirt,
like he looks amazing. And then we were going to

(03:59):
do a challenge TikTok and someone was like, challenge your
boyfriend to not wear a shirt for twenty four or
to wear a shirt for twenty four hours. And I
was like, there's no way he wouldn't be able to
do it. I wouldn't be able to wear one for
twenty four hours. I mean, you know he he works out,
and you know he takes a shirt off and then
he just in his defense, he's like, Jane, you keep

(04:19):
the house at like seventy off. If I looked like that,
I would never wear a shirt. Why I'm a the beach, like,
I'm not happy with anything that's going on here. If
I look like that guy, I'd never wear a shirt.
I know. That's kind of why. Like I'm like, you know,
I'm I don't. I don't hate it. My favorite thing

(04:40):
about it is that, like Jane's stories, it's like snowing
so heavily outside and then cut to the man not
wearing a shirt. Literally, I love it. I think. What's
so funny too, is like when I was I was
talking to Catherine, I was like, Okay, you know, it's
starting to people are starting to catch on the man
in the reflection and and I was just trying to

(05:01):
keep it a little bit more because I honestly didn't
know and not that I didn't know that I didn't
like him, but um, and then we were dating, but
I just it's scary. It's scary to put it out there,
and so I was just trying to keep it close
and um, but I was trying to figure out what
photos to put for the infeed, and I was like, Katherine,
everyone I've selected, he does not have a shirt. So

(05:23):
I'm like, I have to add some of that. So
I was like, Ian, I'm gonna needs you to start
wearing a shirt buddy just for a Yeah, so what
can we know more about this situation? Like we know,
so what can we know? What he does do? Is
that allowed? Yeah? So he Um, he is in private

(05:45):
private equity. Um, so he is a he's a former
Navy seal, um, but he's actually in the Navy Seal
Reserve right now, so he still has to go to
Virginia or um. I believe as San diego to you know,
every so often to um because he's still he's still
a part of the Navy Seals, but he's in the reserve.
So if a war went off, you know, he said,

(06:08):
we would discuss because he would probably want to go
back and um yeah so um, yeah, so he was
he's been a Navy seal for a long time. Um.
But now he works with another one of his Navy
seal buddies in private equities. So I guess that they
buy companies and sell them or something like that. It's
like totally, I like, don't like it seems like a

(06:29):
better tax bracket than fitness instructor. So I like the
sound he could he could be like in a meeting
reviewing someone's portfolio and then just get the call and
he has to like put on a parachute pack and
his gun active combat. Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean
he's and then he's also, um, he's uh, he's he's

(06:49):
really big into CrossFit too, so he's actually um training
for the CrossFit UM Games or open or whatever, so
he does that as well. I'm starting to feel a
little insecure. Now we were getting into a weird area.
Now he's a superhero. Forgot that all the men feel.
I mean he's yeah, I mean he's he's pretty Um

(07:10):
what is it? My husband always says, you always saw
some A lot of people call him Captain America like
some rambo. And he can hold his breath for like
oh yeah, he can hold his breath for like four
and a half minutes or something crazy like that, because
like in the seals, like it's I guess I do
you realize that your girlfriend has to plug her nose
like when she goes into water, Like, how does that
make you feel that when I jump in water, I'm plugging.

(07:32):
I'm literally plugging my nose, And yet you can go
down there for four and a half something minutes and
hold your breath. I mean, because have you ever seen
like what seals have to do to train? No, oh
my god, it's like, I mean, people die training to
be a seal because it's like the most like badass
like training. And I mean they don't, was it not?
I think he's downstairs. I can also I could grab them,

(07:54):
but um, but just for our own confidence, can you
please tell us he has like horrible breath something. But
in the very beginning with the girls like my girls,
and I met him, I was like, Okay, he's handsome,

(08:16):
he's got a body to die for, Like he's his
freaking navy seal. He's an private act Like he's charming,
he's nice, he's like kind, he's got a daughter, he's
you know, he's a dad. And I'm like, he's got
a small I bet you he has a small penis
that's it? That something has to be wrong with him,
like he has to have a small and I will

(08:38):
say it's very nice, alright, What is something though? What
does he do? This guy be something that's annoying or mean,
here's the thing, Like I mean, so I met him
in October. Um, so he's friends with Andrew East, Sean
Johnson's husband, So they work out together. Um, they do

(09:01):
like this dad or days or whatever on Saturdays. And
so when I I went to the I wasn't actually
supposed to be there, and he wasn't he didn't have
his daughter that weekend, but his his ex let him,
you know, have for the party. And so, UM, I
go to the party and I see, you know, this
guy in an orange shirt and I was like, oh, man,
he is coute um but obviously he's probably married, and

(09:25):
you know, I don't really pay much attention to it,
but um, long story short, Andrew came over to me
and was like, Hey, there's a guy here I want
you to meet. And I'm like, we're at a two
year old kids party, Like what are you doing? You
know what I mean? Like the hope, please don't try
and set me up right now. Um. And he's like, no, seriously,
he's a really good dude, navy c you like that. Um.

(09:46):
He's like he's the guy in the orange shirt. And
I was like, shut up. I've been staring at him
like this entire time. Um. And then you know, we
ended up meeting and that's how we met. And then
we just you know talked and um and yeah, kind
of the rest is history. Okay, well you're going to
tell us something negative about it? Oh no, October. I

(10:11):
honestly like, how do I say this? It's been so
nice not to have anything that's like I've never started
because you know, like when I started with my ex
two weeks and he cheated. So with this, it's like
I don't have anything that I can say like this
bothers me or yeah, I mean I will say okay, okay,

(10:34):
So okay. There is one thing that he does, okay,
marks like please when he eats, he puts his teeth
like on the top of his fork and I can
hear the sound of it. That's what I needed. And
then he kind of eats like he's like a mountain man.
So I'm like, do we close our mouth or like that?

(10:55):
So now like every time. So we were eating dinner
last night and he like did it and he goes, oh,
I'm sorry I heard one. And I was like, okay,
we all we all need to be trained. And because
he was kind of like, you know, I saw him
like he had all the meat he was making dinner
and all the all the meat on the table, and
I was like, hey, baby, like next time, do you
mind putting that on because it's like the chicken stuff

(11:17):
that's kind of grossing me out. And he's like, I'm sorry.
He's like because he's so used to He's like, I
eat dirt and I'm used to just preparing however, you know,
so um he's roasting like a brontosaurus rib over an
open flame. Yeah, the chicken infecting. But I feel, you know,
I will get him on maybe one day. Um. He's
he's he's very he doesn't like to be like in

(11:40):
the spotlight, you know, like he's Yeah, he's a normal
dude that's as a huge and he just is kind
of like you do your thing. I mean, yeah he's
doing you know, the CrossFit stuff, but he's just you know,
he just so enjoys it, and I just I want
to support him however I can. But I think with
the coolest thing about him is like he's we just
have a lot of fun together and he pushes me

(12:03):
to to um, you know, to uh just stretch my
limits on things and where I'm scared, Like he kind
of pushes me. And then where he you know, where
he falls short in some areas, Like I kind of
push him too. So I just feel like it's just
like a really good it just feels really nice. And um,
I will say I definitely have tried to push him

(12:24):
away a few times, just because I'm scared of it,
and um, you know, I it's I've kind of be
like what's her face? And how to lose a guy
in ten days? Like I've I've I've tried to how
to lose a guy in ten days, just because it's
just I'm scared and I'm I'm scared of and I
was scared to post because I'm like, I don't want

(12:46):
to be embarrassed. I don't want, you know, the same
history to repeat itself. I don't you know? And and
but you know, Katherine says, this is dating and you
don't know the end results. But are you happy? Yes?
You know? Do you? And um, from what I see,
you know he's an honest man. And but yeah, I
just get so scared. And there's there came a point
I don't know, it it was like a month ago, and

(13:07):
he goes, why are you trying to push me away?
And I was like, no, I'm not, And he's like,
you are you are actively trying to push me away?
And I don't. He's like why And I just started
just bawling. And I was just because you're just gonna leave,
and you're you're gonna cheat, or you're gonna lie, and
and and he's just and and and then you know,

(13:28):
I have to apologize and say I'm sorry. That's just
my own fears, it's my own stuff, and you've done
nothing for me to think that. I was like, but
it's just, um, it's just scary, and I'm scared, and
I and and you know the amount of times he's
had he's had to like literally like look me in
the face and go, I am not going anywhere. I'm
not going to hurt you. And it's like I hear it.

(13:48):
But then I'm like, I've heard those things before, and
so I'm scared of that because it never was followed
through last time. So of course you're gonna let me down.
Of course you're gonna hurt me, because that's what happens
with every serious relationship in my life, from my father
to max husband. So what can you do to reverse
this um cycle? Because can you just can you kind

(14:09):
of get in the mindset of one day at a time, Well,
that's what yeah, and that's what I'm that's what I'm
having to do now where it's like, you know, I'm
talking to my therapist about it and my friends and
just going, Okay, he's not my ax. I cannot put
him in the same category as my ex. I have
to look at his actions and how he's being with me,
and but I mean, yeah, I have tested him probably
to the limits with you know, my traumas and triggers.

(14:31):
But then I have to go back and go, I'm sorry,
that was my stuff and I feel really bad, and
you know, my therapist is even like, you know, he's
he's shown that like he's not going anywhere. But at
the same time, you know, you gotta you can't keep
doing this pattern. So it's like, yeah, I think it's
just he said to me the other day we went
on a run and he looked at me and he goes,

(14:52):
one day, you're going to know that you can, you know,
trust me, and that I'm not going to hurt you.
He's like, because I promise you. He's like I He's like,
you know, he's said all this sweet stuff and it
was beautiful to hear, and it was so sweet, but
he was just like he kind of just like you know,
hugged me and was just like, I will not hurt you.
And it's just like I just started crying because it's

(15:12):
like he's in It's just I just feel like very
understood in that in those moments when he does that
for me, because he understands the pain. It's so hard
to believe. But I'm like, Okay, like today, you're right.
Tomorrow I hope so too. He's like, if you don't
believe me today, believe me tomorrow. If you don't believe
in tomorrow, believe me the next day. If don't believe
me in the next day, believe me the next day.
All we can do is show you. You know, yeah,

(15:34):
saying it doesn't really matter at the end of the day,
you know, all you can do is show you, and
he's showing you. And I have to realize that there's
people that you know are not like my ex and
that I deserve it. And that's my therapist like you
deserve to be happy. I'm like, okay, and you deserve
to be treated good. I'm like, but do I you know, Catherine,

(16:07):
are we at all concerned about going so wide with
this three months after meeting. I'm not, but I feel
like that's a lot of pressure on a relationship to
be on us weekly and people and all these other things.
I do too, But I think it doesn't matter. I
think if she does it next year or five years
from now or last week or whatever, everyone's going to

(16:30):
have something negative to say. It's not moving too fast.
I don't think it's moving. It's not like they're just dating.
What is moving too fast when you got divorced? What April? Well?
I mean, right, But I mean my point is, why
is there a certain timeline? Why is there a certain
and they're just dating. They're not married, they're not engaged.

(16:51):
You I guess, I guess. I guess the publicity puts
pressure on it. I feel like it labels it as
something maybe more than it is. So I think the
only the one thing that the Ablicity does for me
is that if it doesn't work out, it's just another
failed thing, and that puts on um I'll feel disappointment.
But at the same time, this is dating, right, Like
just like with you know, the whole j thing like

(17:14):
this is, you know, I have to date to see
who my person is and who I want us. And
it's like if if there's something that comes up I'm
not going to stay with him because US Weekly wrote
a article about us. I'm gonna stay with him because
you know, I like him and I care about him,
and you know we're we're together. I'm not going to
stay with him because I'm like, oh, I don't want,
you know, to be embarrassed again or yeah. And I

(17:36):
think that if you're the kind of person that doesn't
share as much as you do, yeah, maybe keep it
to yourself, but like you love to share stuff, you love,
to show your life you love, and I think that
it's hard for you to not share him. So I
think it's I think it's you do what feels good
to you. You don't worry about what people say, and

(17:57):
you just do you. I understand that if y'all were
to not work out, that that's going to be hard,
but you're dating, and that's part of dating. And people
don't have to know why you broke up. If you
do break up, you don't have to show you know.
It's just it's just you have to be able to
live your life. US Weekly is going to email me
every day asking for something about it. You have to

(18:18):
live your life. Just does it freak him out? Because
this is in his world, so does it freak him
out that his face is everywhere? And um, I think
the only thing was like his daughter, Like I didn't
like the fact they used a picture of his daughter, um,
just because that's you know, they didn't ask for that.
But at the same time, he was just like, you know,
I don't He's like, I don't care about it. He's like,
do you you want me to delete Instagram? And I was like, no,

(18:38):
I don't let your like, you know, live your like
we're just living our lives. And I'm I'm basically showing
people that you can find happiness after pain. And if
that's the message, if that's all that this relationship is
going to show, um, which I hope, I hope not.
I mean, I who knows, I don't know. But at
the same time, I want people to see that there

(18:59):
is light after darkness and you know, and that's one
of the reasons why I wanted to share. And again,
I don't know what tomorrow holds. I don't know what
the next day. I don't know what, if and when
we're going to break up, but I don't want to.
I just want to enjoy the moment that we're in
and then go from there. And you don't want to
live life like that? Yeah, I don't. I don't think
that that's a healthy place to be. Well, let me

(19:21):
just hold on to this because of what's going to
happen or what may happen or what like. I just
don't feel like it's healthy for you. I think that
that keeps you in this place of but what if
he hurts me? But what if he cheats on me?
And that doesn't allow you to live day to day?
You're still living in this future of what if he
hurts me? What if I have to have an US
Weekly article about us breaking up? Like that doesn't allow

(19:42):
you to just enjoy your life and live day by day.
Have you met each other's children? Yes? How did that go? Um? Fantastic?
That's a big step. Yeah. Um, and it was one
of those things where we because that's important too if

(20:03):
we're dating and our kids don't get along or you know, um,
how we parents kids? I mean that's gonna be Does
that work for me? Does that work for us? Like?
How does that look? And I think to go to
that next level of a relationship too, I think that's
something that needs you need to see and um, you know,

(20:25):
we we kind of let them because they technically met
the day at that birthday party, right because I met
because I met his daughter there. I was like, oh, hi,
it's my daughter, you know, so technically they had already met.
So we just did as like, hey, do you want
to have a play date today? Mommy's friend that you
met um at that thing, it's going to come over. Um.
And so that's how we kind of organically, Uh did

(20:46):
that five So same age as Joly and yeah, and
they just get along great and um, she's a sweetheart.
So yeah. So I mean, but I mean, I'm sure
there will be challenges along the way with that and
co parenting in the schedules. I mean, our our holidays
are completely flopped, so you know, there's there's times and
I'm like, you know, I don't it's hard for me

(21:10):
to be here when I'm not with my kids, but
we're here with your kids, so it's like I need
you know. So it's just like kind of an vice versa.
So it's just kind of figuring that out. And um,
but he is someone He's the first person post divorce
that I have wanted to be in a real relationship
with and it all seems good. Honestly, it seems wonderful.

(21:33):
And he like he used to be a soccer player
to Mark, because I means everything you've asked for a
non celebrity soccer player, you know, like a normal, normal guy. Honestly,
if you put your dream man down on paper, I
think it'd be very similar to this guy. A lot
of boxes checked here, I know your boxes, Mark, I
mean she made sure I was like boxes, so we'll see.

(21:59):
So I'm not like we're putting pressure on it. We're
not like we're just we're having fun. He Um. You
know he's pushing me in areas that you know, I
feel like I hold myself back and um, I just um,
it feels really nice to laugh and just be happy again. So,

(22:20):
however that is, it's I will say this, and if
this does not work out, I've already survived one of
the hardest things and one of the worst things I've
ever and hopefully we'll ever have to go through that
any breakup moving on is not going to kill me,
because if my divorce didn't kill me, this will not
kill me. So and he's on the show next week.

(22:42):
I think we got a booked. I think he's ready
one week from today. We til him on next week's episode. Okay,
talk about moving fast already having them on the podcast,
Come on, all right, it could be fun. Oh lord,
A lot of questions for him. Oh I'm sure, Lord,
I don't know if I'm ready for that. That seems

(23:04):
a little first. It's going to be a big so good.
Oh my god, you guys like you, you therapist bomb us.
I'm like, this is not Janet and Mike podcast anymore. Okay,
we're not doing that. Oh lord, No, no, I'm not ever.

(23:25):
I'm not ever going back to that. I'm not gonna
overshare like that because it's not gonna be anything to
talk about. It's just gonna be happy and in good time. Yeah,
like your teeth and your teeth annoying me when you
hit the fork. It's not like something just to make
the men and feel better about themselves. And did I
mention he you know he does my laundry, and you know, yeah,

(23:49):
does he do it well? Does he separate the lights
from the darks? And the other day I was like
stressed out, but he was, by the way, it's like
all the you know, the laundry like is it's done.
I was like, oh my god, I thank you. What
does you separate out the colors? And because you don't,
I don't ever, so I don't care, man. But yeah, anyways,

(24:13):
he's a he's a sweetheart. And so to the people
out there that are having our time, just know that
there's there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
And if if you go to another tunnel and you
see light, it's okay. If it goes the darkness again,
you can be happy. And he'll At the same time,
I think that's important for people to realize you're that's
really good. That's good. It's really important because I feel

(24:35):
like people are like, don't understand that, you know, so
just remember you can be happy. That's still be healing well.
And that's what I told him to like. I was like,
you don't want to be with me and he's like, yes,
I do. I was like, no, you don't. I was like,
I got a lot of work still to do, and
he goes, then I'll help you along the way, and
I was like, okay, there's the light of the end

(24:57):
of the tunnel and he is ripped. Just keep your
shirt off. Oh man, all right, well we have an
amazing guess coming on. Oh yeah, I forgot, And um,
you know, I'm with all of this. Like, like I said,
I've got a lot of healing work to do. I'm

(25:18):
still dealing with co parenting with my ex and it
hasn't been easy. Um, and you know, there are things
that I still have, you know, um, things that hurt,
and it's hard and um, trying to balance the two
has been very tough because, like I said, I still
have a lot of healing work to do, and so
that's where I fight a lot of That's where I fight,
like pushing him away because I'm like, I can't do this.

(25:40):
I've got too much and if well, if my ex
hates me and you're gonna hate me, and like, so
just I'm just gonna be alone. So um, you know,
So I just I know that I still have a
lot of work to do and it is it's very hard.
But I do follow this amazing woman. She does the
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Instagram and she as the videos for

(26:00):
them Jane, and so we're gonna have her on and
you know, just walk through, you know, the life of
a narcissist and gas lighting and abuse. Am Excited sho tours.
Hey guys, Been and Ashley from the Almost Famous podcast.

(26:23):
It's that time of year where drama fills the air.
The Bachelor is back with an all new season premiering
January three. There's a new host, Jesse Palmer, and a
brand new Bachelor, Clayton. Clayton is a Midwest boy that
has that great smile, nice teeth, and he's really tall
as let's call it what it is, he's a beefcake. Okay, well,

(26:47):
Clayton seems to be a good guy though, and he
can't wait to find love, get married, and have kids.
And he believes more than anything that his future wife
is on this show. It sounds like a fairy tale
but also a bit of an emotional world coaster because
Clayton tells three different women he's falling in love with him. Technically,

(27:08):
he told one, I couldn't be more sure that I'm
falling in love with him, and another one, I'm falling
in love with you, and the third one, I am
in love with you. You don't miss a thing. It's
some years of over analyzing everything that guys say, but
his heart is in the right place, but other parts

(27:28):
of him as we find out what he admits that
two different women that he was intimate with both of them. Yeah,
I don't think it's gonna go over well, we'll be
breaking down at all. On the Almost Famous podcast, Ben
is married now well and Ashley's a mom will change
our opinions of what we think is acceptable single behavior.

(27:48):
Good question. Listen to Almost Famous on the I Heart
Radio app, on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All. So,
we're gonna bring in Jane. She is, Um, she's incredible.
She's a part of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast and
then she also does the the Instagram. I don't know.

(28:11):
Do you watch Middle Cat You need to? There's it's
they're so it's so good. Um, so let's bring Jane
in right now. Hi, Hi, you know why I watch
you every day? That probably sounds really creepy. No, I'm like, no,
it sounds really creepy. But also like, doesn't she look
like her therapist? Yes? That's crazy. Yeah, you look so

(28:33):
much like are We We have a we don't go together.
We went to a couple of therapy, but I mean
sometimes best friends and need a couple of therapy. But
we we don't, but um, you look so much like
my therapist that there's some sort of like I mean,
obviously I go to you know, your podcast in your
Instagram to you know, just get all the knowledge, um,
and then to also not feel crazy, but um, you

(28:55):
just you look so much like her that I'm like, oh, yeah,
there's just like and very funny. Oh I'm glad. I'm
glad that we can and her sweet voices, I know.
So I I are you a lot to share some
of your past it all or now? Like why like

(29:16):
how you got into speaking out and doing what you do? Yeah, yeah, okay,
give it to us girl anonymously. So yeah, I was.
I was married for thirteen years and it was you
know a lot a lot of women who listened to
our podcast and find us on social media have similar stories.
So I was married. There was there was infidelity, there

(29:38):
was pornography, there was a lot of that, um, just betrayal,
and I thought it was sex addiction. So I did.
I went the sex didiction route that a lot of
us go on. You know, we went to c SATs,
which are certified sexual addiction therapists. Um, and that model,
uh does the opposite of the BTR model. We follow
the trauma model, which is this is abut so if

(30:01):
this is happening to you, you are a trauma victim
and there's a perpetrator and a victim in that model,
versus the sex addiction model, which says, you know, you
need couples therapy. There's communication issues. He is the you know,
the perpetrator, the one who is cheating or the one
who is lying, or as dr Omar mend Walla calls it,
has a secret sexual basement. This person is a victim,

(30:24):
and so they need to almost like they're sick. And
so it's like it's almost like your husband is a
cancer victim, and it's your job to make life comfortable
for him and to coddle him, to give him more
sex and to be more attractive so that he's not
tempted to deviate. And this can see, this can be
very difficult for women in faith communities. You know, we
have a lot of women in the BTR community who
are you know, either extremely indoctrinated into their religious beliefs

(30:48):
or they're married to pastors or other forms of clergy.
That's like a terrible hole to dig yourself out of.
So in my and my experience eventually going down this
rabbit hole of sex adict s, trying so hard to
make myself exactly what I thought I needed to be. I. UM,
I eventually started to identify emotional abuse patterns of emotional abuse,

(31:11):
and UM, the more I tried to explain that to
our therapists, the more crazy I felt, the more gas
My therapist began gaslighting me, telling me that I was,
you know, finding fault, that I was, um, not meeting
my husband's needs. And that's when I started googling my symptoms,
you know, And I think that that's a huge indicator.
When you started googling your symptoms, googling what other people

(31:32):
are doing in your relationship, that's a big sign that
something is really wrong. And that's when I started to
find btr UM and I was like, oh my gosh,
what the heck is betrayal trauma. I'd never heard that
phrase before in my life. And UM, I started listening
to the podcast I actually don't do the podcast, and
she's and was also on Wine down UM a few
weeks ago and Choose Amazing. So if you haven't heard

(31:53):
that episode, definitely go back to listen to that one. Yeah,
and using you know, using the BTR podcast as as
other resources. I'm an avid reader, and I started reading
other books that were super helpful. They're on our website
as well, BTR dot org slash books. We curate these
books and make sure that there's nothing in because I mean,
there's so many books out there about betrayal, trauma, infidelity,

(32:15):
the you know, domestic abuse, covert abuse, and there's a
lot of victim blaming language in these books. You'll read them,
you'll get a couple of chapters in you're like, oh
my gosh, this explains my story, and then all of
a sudden, it's like and you're codependent, and you're like,
I just want something that will help me. But so
so we read these books, we make sure that there's
nothing in there that's gonna hurt you, and then we
put it on our list. So anyway, I started reading

(32:37):
and learning, working with BTR coaches and finally figuring out
that there wasn't just not just to downplay it, but
there wasn't just sex, you know, sexual deviation and sexual
acting out in my marriage. There was also emotional abuse,
psychological abuse, sexual abuse, and coercion, and there was even
physical abuse that I had not been able to see

(32:57):
when I was in the marriage, and so for me
in my life, one of the most difficult things I've
ever had to do was look that in the eyes
and be like, I am a victim of domestic abuse.
I mean, the shame that you feel when you recognize that,
the fear of knowing I'm gonna have to do something
about this. You know, I have children as well that
I share with my ex husband, so you know, navigating that,

(33:20):
realizing I'm gonna have to face the family court system,
it was overwhelming. But um, I was able to use
BTR resources. I was able to use We really love
Tina Swien from One Mom's Battle. She's also on Instagram
us using those resources there was there were a lot
of other um and I'm just powerful moments for myself
of just regaining my sense of self that helped me

(33:41):
to kind of get through to the other end. And
then I've I've always been just by I'm a writer.
I've been writing for a while just for different organizations,
and so I kind of like made my way into
BTR by continuously commenting on their different articles, just different
things I thought that they should tweak or make better
and eventually and reached out to me and said, look,
you just want to write for us, keep telling us

(34:02):
me to do things better. And I was like, sure,
So that's kind of how I how I started with BTR.
That's awesome, And how are you now? Like with your
do you still kind of go? Because I feel like
and which is why I reached out to you, because
I'm sending her some screenshots um of me and my
AX and I was like, I feel crazy, like and
I'm like and I'm like, does this like I'm I'm struggling,
and I'm just like I need to like reach out

(34:23):
to someone because I'm like, I this is so hard
and it's and I go back and like this like
it's this it's this awful cycle, you know. But I
also realized that I one of my issues but and
almost because I have because the co parenting is like
I engage and like that's like my biggest issue is that,
like I have to stop engaging. It's so difficult. I
think that. And that's the nature of this kind of

(34:45):
really covert abuse is that it makes you question reality
all the time. You know, You're always wondering, am I
actually crazy? Am I the crazy one. Am I starting this?
Am I the abuser? And and I just want to say,
you know the fact that you're questioning that that's what
you care about, that indicates that it's not you. Abusers
don't care about how their behavior affects other people, only

(35:07):
to the extent of how that's going to affect their image.
So they might be like, oh my gosh, I freaked out.
You know, they might drop their guard for a second
and have a complete freak out yell at everybody, you know,
and then they're like, they will self reflect like, oh
my gosh, I just showed them that I'm a psycho.
Now this person is going to think I'm crazy this.
It might affect my income in some way, you know,

(35:28):
something like that, But not I hurt my family, I
hurt my ex wife, I hurt her heart by scaring her.
They don't do that, but we do, you know, we
care about how it hurts other people's feelings. So just
keep going back to that, keep going back to intent.
You might do things that are not in your character,
you might do things that are not who you are,
and you might go back and oh my gosh, it's me,

(35:48):
I'm crazy. It's not though it's not you're reacting irrationally,
abnormally to an abnormal situation, which is healthy. That's correct.
You know what's so interesting about what you just said too,
because I'm like, you know, at one point he was like, well,
I've I've that one day I came over and was empathetic,
and I'm like, that was the morning after we had
that big incident in the house which I can't share,

(36:11):
but like where he kind of went crazy, And that
was that afternoon where he was like, I'm sorry, and
it's like because they wanted to be worried about his image,
his image, And I was like, oh my gosh, Like
that just like totally clicked when you said that he
said that one morning. I mean, I know there's that too. Um,
how do you deal though with, you know, co parenting

(36:32):
with someone that has um well, that is narcissistic and
has her and has no empathy. That's it's really hard
to navigate. I think that. I mean, there's a few
key things. So number one, you're gonna want to remember that. Um,
it's important that you operate remembering the legal system does
not favor victims, so unfortunately you kind of have to

(36:53):
play their game. And um, and so it would be ideal,
It would be amazing if you just never had to
see him again. Drop off, pick up, not speak to them,
but you are going to have to communicate with them.
So one of the things that we advocate at BTR
is that you just have one mode of communication. So
there's a lot of apps that help you with this,
things like Talking Parents are Family Wizard. I think Whyneth

(37:15):
Paltrow made one called fair f a y r um.
And these apps are cool because they're the uh communication
you have with you with your ex is court admissible,
and so everything that you communicate between yourself and your
ex can be used in courts. So you want to
make sure that as you're talking to your ex through
these that you're not doing anything that you wouldn't want

(37:35):
to judge to read. And the cool thing about that
is that you can really kind of you can take
a pause, you can take a minute and think, and
you can be like, all right, I want to be
strategic about this. I want to make sure that what
I'm writing here reflects not my traumatized, overwhelmed really trigger itself,
because he might say something like I want to buy Mary,
our daughter a purple backpack and to a judge, this

(37:57):
makes them look like a great dad. But you have
some kind of backstore you where there's something really triggering
about purple backpacks, you know, and he knows that, and
he knows it's gonna send you in a spiral. But
instead of being like your psycho, I hate you so much,
why would you bring up a purple backpack? I hate you.
You're breaking my heart, you know. Instead of doing that,
you can be like, wonderful, thanks Todd, you're the best

(38:17):
and send it and then you call your best friend
and you freak out and you don't think out of
the same outfit for four days and you deal with
your trauma, right, But you have shown the court system
and your X that he doesn't have the same kind
of power over you he once had. And because the
court system is looking, you know, in in the event
that you end up going back to court, which which

(38:39):
unfortunately does happen quite a bit in these situations, because
they're constantly they like it, you know, they like the conflict.
In the event that that happens, the courts are looking
for two high conflict individuals. They want the back that
they don't want it. But They're expecting this back and
forth to really immature people. They just hate each other,
and that's what they're expecting. Your job is to show

(39:00):
I'm not part of this dynamic. He's a psycho. I'm
not part of this dynamic. And you don't show them
that by constantly trying to expose him. You just show
up by being yourself, by being your authentic, warm, stable self.
Given me enough for hope, he's going to hang himself,
and you can really show that through your communication with him.
You know what I think? I was, Um, we were

(39:20):
just like not good right now. And it's frustrating because
you know, my friends have seen me try to have
a good co parenting situation, and I think words that
have been spoken. I'm like, as much as I dislike
you on many levels, I'm like, I would never say
that to my to anybody, And it's like it's like
the I'm like, the words that you're saying and are

(39:42):
so incredibly hurtful that I'm like, I don't understand. And
but then I you know, I've cried of my friends
in a therapist and I'm like, I don't And then
they're like, why do you care if someone has been
so narcissistic and and you know, cheating. It's like, why
do you care? And I'm like, I don't, like, I
don't know if it's it's it's if it's the abuse
piece or if I'm like, but every time I mentioned abuse, like,
he's like he laughs at me about it, and then

(40:05):
that makes me then feel even more crazy because I'm like,
but it was like whether it was all the above,
like it was still form and he's like, well, you
know you said things to me too where you did this,
and so then I'm like, okay, well maybe then I
did deserve that because of X, Y and Z. So
then it's just like this constant like and then I'm like,
well and then i want, like the abuser to like me,

(40:26):
and I'm like, why do Why am I trying to
get his approval and his He's never liked me, he's
never cared about me, or he wouldn't have done X,
Y and Z. So I'm like and I'm like, I
don't I don't have the answer, Like I feel like
I'm just stuck in that area, like why do I
care or want his approval? Maybe because I never got it,
or maybe because I'm like, hello, I played like please,

(40:47):
like I'm deserving of it, Like why have you never
loved me the way that? Like, so I don't know,
Like do you have any insight because I've literally the
therapists are like, hands up. A lot of what you're
asking has to do with how he thinks, and it's
really important. Patricia Evans talks about this in her book
The Verbally Abusive Relationship. Understand that you are operating in

(41:08):
one reality. He's operating in a completely different reality and
your reality. When you've harmed somebody, you want to know.
For example, if you harm your best friend and she's like, hey,
look you hurt me, you want to be like, hey,
what did I do? Tell me how it felt, tell
me what happened, because you want to fully apologize for that.
You want to clear all that out, and then I
guarantee you a week from then you're like, hey, are

(41:28):
your feeling still hurt? Can you talk to me about it?
So where she's like, oh my gosh, Jenna, drop it.
It's fine, you'd be like okay, and then you know
too much on the already and be like okay, but
are you do you really forgive me? Because you care?
Because that's how that's the reality that healthy, normal people
live in. Okay, you because you live in that reality.
Because we are in this reality, we can study and
we can learn, and we can get PhDs on how

(41:50):
these how abusive people think. We cannot think that way though,
our brains cannot go there. And so your brain is
trying so hard to wrap itself around the fact that
he just doesn't care. But you can't. You can't understand it.
And so to you, it's like, look, if I done
what you did, I would want to apologize. I would
want to give you closure. I would want to, you know,

(42:11):
shake hands and walk away. I mean, you birthed his children.
You guys were together for a long time. Well, and
and he has like and he said, like, I've apologized
a million times. I'm done apologizing. But I was like,
but you haven't apologized, and you haven't owned the war
that you were abusive. And that's the piece that I missed.
I need to I need to hear you say not
because of X, Y and Z or like, I just

(42:32):
need you to say I'm sorry that I was abusive,
whether mentally all you know, just all of it. Just
like I just need you just for some reason it's like,
because now that I have done the research, I'm like, Wow,
that was mentally abusive, but that was emotionally or that
was financially abusive or you know, and it's like he
just will not take ownership of that. And it's like
I have a hard time. Um, I just have a

(42:54):
herd because then I just feel like crazy for for
for wanting that, I guess, and it's not enough. Everybody
else affirms it and tells you and books and therapists
everyone else. You want it from the perpetrator because that's
what normal people do, That's what healthy people do. And
I think that, Um, you know, it's going to take
some acceptance just to realize you're never going to get

(43:16):
it from him. He will never validate that, He will
never give you that kind of closure. That kind of
closure is going to have to come from you accepting
reality for what it is. And when you've been gasolt
for so long and betrayed for I mean, betrayle it
self takes a huge toll because your whole reality changes.
You thought things were one way when there was a
completely different reality happening behind the scenes. That changes things,

(43:39):
you know, and then then they blame you for that, Well,
if you didn't do this, or if you didn't like,
he was always like, well, if you were you know,
if you didn't say this, like I would have been
nicer to you. And I'm like, what, like it's just
like and then I'm like, oh, then I stay because
I'm like, Okay, you're right, that was my fault, you know,
Or it's so it's hard for you because you know,
you have things blocked and you can see certain things,

(44:01):
or you know it's I don't want you going out
at three m to a bar or whatever like that. Yeah,
you're right, that's my fault. I'm sorry. Yeah, No, that's gaslighting.
I mean, gas lighting has tremendous, horrible consequences on our
brains over time. It's gonna take you time to heal
from that. Just surrounding yourself with people who just constantly
are affirming to you that your reality is real, that

(44:22):
you see things how they are, that you can trust
your intuition. I think as that happens, it's going to
be easier for you to let go of the fact
that he is denying this, that he won't admit to it,
and and it's just gonna be enough for you to
say I know, and your friends say like, I know,
we know that you know. You know. And eventually, someday,
as your children get older, eventually if you want this
to be part of their story, they'll say, we know

(44:42):
that you know. And you'll have this group of support,
of a support system that believes your story and you
won't need him to admit it. He was there, he knows,
he knows. Okay, they know what they're doing. He he
will never give you the kind of closure that you need.
But you don't need it from him because it's inside
of you. You just can't feel it yet because he
programmed you not to. Do you think that the person

(45:05):
that he's portraying or the you know after that, Like,
do you think people like that stay the same or
do you think they can change? So like the perception
of who they are today, because you know, he's out
of a shame now, and you know, he always says
like that, I'm I'm wanting to keep him in a
shame Like I'm not, I'm not. I do That's the thing,
Like I don't want you in your shame. I just
want the apology that I know that I deserve, you know,

(45:26):
I Okay, Yeah, and there's so much to that. I
I believe. I believe in shame. I believe that when
people do shameful things, they should feel ashamed. I feel
shame when I do shameful things, and it's good because
it helps me to realize I'm not operating on a
healthy level. And I believe the word shame is weaponized
by abusive men all the time to try to shift

(45:49):
responsibility and accountability onto their partners. I hear it happen
all the time. Um, your desire for him to affirm
the level of hurt that he has caused you and
your family is not keeping him in his shame. It's
simply you expressing the pain that you're in and for
him to be like, oh, I want you to stop
this now so that I don't feel bad for what

(46:10):
I've done to you. That in itself sounds very much
to me like emotional abuse. So so there's that I
have a little, a little, a little aster to that.
But I doesn't he he has a point though, like
too affirm his side. We are divorced, I should move on.
So when he says move on or divorced, get over it,
m hmm, Like he has a point we are I

(46:33):
need to move on. I need to get over it. Okay,
I'm I'm You're going, No, you don't need to move
on and get over anything. You you deserve. I'm going
to change that, and I hope you can change that
thought in your mind too. You deserve to be loved
and to heal, rather than I need to move on,

(46:53):
I need to get over it. That's him speaking. I
hear women say things where I'm like, that's your abuse
are talking, not you. That's his voice in your head,
not you. Rather, you deserve validation and healing. And it's
gonna come. Saying you need to get over such a
traumatic event. It's like it's literally like saying to somebody
who was hit by a car who's still asking the

(47:13):
person who hit their car and saying, look, I need
an apology. You you know they were let's change this analogy.
They were driving the car on purpose. They hit a
tree with the car, fully knowing that there was a
passenger in the car. Okay, And then you know, you
get divorced, you move on. Years later you're like, hey,
when you rammed our car into that tree, it scared me,

(47:36):
it hurt me, It made me have a really hard
time getting in cars with men. Okay, I would like
an apology. He says, get over it. It was years
ago or divorced now. Um, yeah, so you can see
a couple of issues there. He was a psycho to
drive that into a tree. Maybe don't talk to him
because he's crazy, right, But it makes sense that you

(47:57):
want that apology from him. He should be mean, he
should be doing a lot of things to make restitution
for what he did to you. He's not doing them.
It makes sense that your brain is like, I want
more than what i'm getting, Right, But what would you
say to that passenger. You wouldn't say get over it?
You would say, oh my gosh, what can I do
for you? What do you need to heal? So I

(48:17):
want you to treat yourself with that same kind of
compassion because you have been through serious trauma and he's
treating it like a splinter when this is this is
an emergency room visit, This is an icy you stay,
not not a splinter with a with a little band aid,
right Yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I know. It's

(48:39):
just when you hear those things, I'm like, oh, like
all the seven years of the gas lighting in the
manipulation and making me feel crazy. It just is still
here today, and it's just like I it's it's just
it's taken a lot more time than I. But it's
also I've I've discovered so many more things too about
what it really was, and like, oh wow, like I

(49:00):
I wasn't crazy, But there's still times where I still
believe that, like I am crazy because of all the
things that were said to me, you know, like the
proof right in front. I mean Catherine would sit in
there when I would be like, tell me your secret
email account. I don't have one. I mean, Catherine just
read through all of it, you know, and and it's
like it's just it's like even those memories come and

(49:21):
I'm like, oh, but maybe he really didn't have one.
But we had the roof right there, you know, like
and it's like just have my friend's witness too, just
to be like slapping me. It's like hello, you know,
like wake up. And I think too, I think we
understand why you care. You know, if we ever say
the words why do you care? I think we all

(49:41):
understand why you care and why you need to be
validated and why you need that apology. I think it's
more what she said earlier that we know you're never
going to get it. He is never going to validate
that for you. So it's us praying for you to
get to a place where you can do that to yourself,
where you can of yourself the closure, not him, because

(50:02):
we all can see it because we haven't been abused
by him. You know, you still can't fully. I mean
you see it, but you have though he lied to
you just as much as he lied to everybody listening
to the podcast, just as much as he lied to
you know people on Mondays. He didn't retrain my brain.
He didn't believe and believe him, And not really, if

(50:24):
I'm being honest, No, not really. Um. I mean sure
there were times and little things that I wanted to
believe that, but our brain was not abused like yours.
You know, we were not treated that fully. So we
can see that you aren't going to get what you want.
You still want it. I see it in the text
between y'all. Now, you still want it, you still expect it,

(50:44):
you still have this hope for it that you're not
going I don't want to be you know what my
thing is, I'm like, yes, I want people to like me.
That's it's a bad quality to have. I want everyone
to like me, and I want improv which I know
i'll never get. But like the person that has hurt
me the worst, I don't know how he could hate me.
That's the part that baffles me. That's the part that

(51:05):
hurts so bad. I'm like, how can you hate me
when you destroyed everything? But you blame me? I he
oh he unquote, he loathes me. I don't think he
hates you. He hates himself, but he can't admit that.
I do not, for I do not believe that he
actually hates you and fully blames you. I don't believe it.

(51:27):
I think he knows that he's never going to admit it.
That's my opinion. But I mean, I don't know, but
in my brain it triggers you. Well yeah, and I'm
it just baffles me. I just don't understand how someone
can hate I. Like, I gave a million chances. I
tried as hard as I could, and it was like
but yet I was I was controlling and I was

(51:47):
this and it's like, well, yeah, I did. I was
controlling at times for sure, because I was being terrified
that like you were going to cheat again and five
million times later you did again. You know, Like, but
I'm like, how do you how do you does that
person hate me? Like that's the part that just doesn't
make sense to me. And it doesn't and it won't
make sense because you're in You're in reality one and

(52:08):
he's in reality too. It cannot make sense. And it's
almost at some point you're going to be grateful for
this because you're going to realize you're healthy and he's
not healthy. But maybe but he's he seems so healthy
right now, that's the thing, like hee, So like yeah,
I mean he's do you know, he's he's going to
men's like all these things. And I'm just like, man like, okay,
but even communication with each other is divorced people is

(52:29):
not healthy, you know, it's gone them so and I
want to point that out. You saying that he seems healthy,
He to me couldn't be further from the truth. But
maybe because he hates me that much, I'm like, maybe
he truly just And then I get so upset. I
think that if he's healthy and he hated you that much,
he could still be respectful. I mean I do I

(52:51):
mean I do call him a narcissist, but that's not
very nice. But truth, Jane's like, they will always hate,
they will they will always hate people or or you know,
purposed honestly, like I'm not jury is out on what
kinds of emotions, these kinds of people actually feel patred
to you means something different to him. Love to you

(53:13):
mean something completely different to him, to this kind To
an abusive person, love is what can I get from you? What?
What do you give to me to boost my image?
You know, to make me more financially comfortable? You know,
how can I use you? That's love? So then what
would hate be? You're not giving me anything anymore. You're
not giving me what you used to give me. I

(53:34):
have no use for you. You're hurting my image. So yeah,
he hates you. You're hurting his image by telling the truth.
You're being a whistleblower. You're telling you're bringing awareness to
narcissistic abuse. Yeah, he hates you. Okay, you're telling that.
You good. You know you're doing a noble good thing here,
and you know, I mean what you're asking. Every every
single ex wife or ex partner of an abuser asks it,

(53:57):
why did why did he hate you in the first place?
Because abuse is not love. Abuse is hatred, abuse and betrayal.
Why would he have done any of those things? You know,
and you can some therapists, you know, sexual addicition therapist
will be like, oh, unfulfilled needs, blah blah blah. It
was abuse, and abuse comes down to power and control.
That did not change once you got divorced. It's still
about power and control. He was trying to exert power

(54:19):
and control when you were married, and now that you're divorced,
the same thing as his access to you. So through
texting or emails or however you're communicating, he's going to
continue to try to be the center of your universe.
And he's going to continue to try to control you
through that. Control your emotions, control your time, you know,
control your health if you're not sleeping very well. He
he knows, and he likes it. He likes knowing how

(54:42):
much he's affecting your life. He enjoys it. Okay, And
I can tell you that just because they're all the same,
you know, they all kind of operate the same way.
What's your advice then, for someone dealing with someone who's

(55:03):
got gas, you know, gas slider, narcissist um. Is it
just no communication or is it just I mean, like
can you said like okay, thank you, Yeah, I mean
you can't. You can't go no contact completely. If you
shared children, I would say limit your contact to logistics.
Use something, use a parenting app like Talking Parents or whatever,
so that you just have one route of communication and
then just talk to them about logistics. When are you

(55:25):
picking up the kids? You know, if one of the
kids is sick, yeah, she had a fever. She's doing okay, though,
so and so is getting braces on this day. Let's
you know, John has a birthday on Friday. You can
have him in the morning. I'll have them the afternoon.
Just keep it limited to things like that, only parenting,
only logistical issues. He's not the person to process your
trauma with. He will not validate it. And if he

(55:48):
tries to bring you down that wormhole, you just need
to have some because you know, I can tell you
that the moment that you change your energy towards him,
the moment that you stopped trying to squeeze water out
of that rock, he's going to come after you. He's
I you know, he probably listens to your podcast, and
he probably hates me right now and he's so he
might he might wait a little while to do this,

(56:08):
but I guarantee at some point he's going to say
something like I miss you. I don't know why you
know I I or UM, I wish I would like
some closure on this. Can we meet and can we
talk about it? He eventually if you stopped giving him
the supply, the attention that he used to and with
narcissism we call the supply, he will try to get
it back from you. Um and and but you're not

(56:29):
going to give it because you're you're gonna fill your
life up with these other supportive people and you're gonna
be able to say, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in
going down that road. I only want to communicate with
you about our children so we can be the best
co parents we can be. And then you're just gonna
leave it there and then and then he's going to
go off. And unfortunately, there will be other you know,
other people will have to deal with this abusive person.
But but you are going to fill your life with

(56:49):
safe people and just move forward. And I will say
it's my fault. I mean, he's you know, I'm the
one that keeps being like, hey, you know, I really
need closure from the and it's like I just to
know I won't get it, so I just need to
stop because I mean, in his defense, like, yeah, I
you know, he thinks I'm wanting to bring up a shame.
I'm not, but I can see like how he may
think that that's what I'm trying to do. I just

(57:11):
would like to get that full of closure. Um, And
you know that, yeah, I will say, like that's definitely
my fault that I'm the one that keeps wanting to
like have those conversations and I'm the one drug you know,
drug were judging up the past, you know, So don't
blame yourself. Don't blame yourself. Keep keep that analogy. It

(57:32):
seemed like that clicked. You have been in serious traumatic
situations with this guy, Okay, don't please don't. I hear
him in your head. I hear him like, I feel
like you have been through so much and you're expecting
a lot out of yourself that is more than you
should be expecting. Of Course you want closure, of course
you want these things. I think that UM, working with

(57:53):
your therapist whatever, you know, you know what you need.
But I just think a huge dose of compassion of
each year. That's like one of our biggest platforms is
that self care is really just a ton of compassion
for yourself. The things that you're doing that you're like, oh,
it's my fault. This doesn't make sense. It makes sense.
You are a victim of abuse, you know, and when
you look at other abuse of women, or you think
about other abuse of women, I know that we're all like,

(58:14):
oh my gosh, that poor woman. I can't believe you
went through that. That's you. So see yourself that way,
you know. Yeah, And it's something is interesting that came
up there because um, he was always say that. And
I will admit to this too. I had always had
a really hard time apologizing, but when I did apologize,
I would really mean it, you know, like if there
was something, um, you know that that I did, um

(58:36):
that upset them. But I feel like because I have,
you know, I'm now in a new relationship, but I
feel like because of my past, I'm constantly having to
be like, I'm sorry, that's my past triggers and that's
like this just came up for me. It hasn't nothing
to do with you. And you've been amazing, but like
this is like what what I feel, and I'm sorry,
and it's like I just I've realized how much baggage

(59:00):
have in my new relationship that it's actually like this
apartment sound like I feel it's like a so unfair
to like him, you know, because I'm like, that's not fair,
like that like my like my is now like all
over his side, you know. Yeah. Yeah, Choosing like a
partner post trauma is a really interesting thing because you're

(59:21):
gonna need to, you know, find someone or let someone
find you who is extremely compassionate. It's a gift to
be with a trauma victim. Trauma victims are some of
the most compassionate, loving, sensitive, affectionate people on the planet.
And why because we know what it's like to be
so desperately lonely in a relationship. We have a ton

(59:44):
of love to give. We are we're honest to a
fault because we've been accused of being liars. You know,
We're so self reflective, and so we require incredible partners.
So make sure that whoever you decide to be with understands,
you know, rather than being like, oh my god, I'm
so grateful that anybody wants to be with me because
I'm so pathetic, you know, and soa triggered shift the

(01:00:07):
mindset to understanding being with you is a huge privilege.
And I hope all trauma victims who are hearing this
understand that we have gone through the ringer and we
have come out wounded, yes, but as incredible partners. And
so anybody who's with us does have to be, you know,
very trauma sensitive, very understanding and um and very willing

(01:00:28):
to work through difficult moments with us. But it's very
rewarding to be a partner of a trauma victim. So
he's very lucky to be with you. It is going
to be a hard time, a hard period of time
to work through, but um, you know, there are books
he can read, he can get a therapist, he can
listen to podcasts, he can be there for you through this,
and that's that is what is going to be required

(01:00:49):
for the relationship to work. Jane, thank you so much
for just coming on, and I appreciate you, and I'm
sorry that I you know, DMG the other day, I
mean like don't no, no, no, no. We get messages
a lot like that, and I just and I feel
like I just spish. I could tell everybody, every single
person who messages us, who comes to up with that
you're not crazy. You're not crazy, You're not nobody. We're

(01:01:14):
not crazy. Jane. Where can everybody UM findum the Betrayal
Trauma Recovery UM. It's on Instagram. We're on Instagram, ru
on TikTok are. Our handle on TikTok is BTR dot org. Um.
You can find us on Apple podcasts just The Betrayal
Trauma Recovery Podcast, and then our website is BTR dot org. Jane,

(01:01:35):
You're the best. Thank you and I will be deming
you again very soon. Thank you so much. All right
by you off bye. I love her, adore her. I know,
I watch her all the time. I just love her videos.
I feel like she's a good one for you. Yeah,
Like I feel like you really kind of hurt her. Yeah,
I I love every day I like listen to her

(01:01:57):
go on her Instagram, like yes, yes, And then I like,
I don't know, but it's okay, we're getting we're having
compassion for that. Oh yeah, she's really great. But well
hopefully that helps a lot of people, you know. I
it's so hard because I'm kind of in that spot where,

(01:02:19):
you know, I want to be happy, but then there's
also things that like going through. But it's been really
nice because so many people, I think, are you know
some of the stuff that I've been putting out there
about narcissist or gas you know, gaslighting phrases, and people
are like, oh my god, I never realized that. Now
I'm there, like thank you for you know, talking about it.
So at least I feel like I'm like, okay, you're

(01:02:40):
definitely helping people. For sure. It makes me feel better.
I don't think people really fully understand gaslighting and what
is considered all forms of abuse and narcissism, you know,
so it's helpful. You know. One of the things too,
one of the gaslighting phrases, I was like, oh shoot.
I used to say that. I'd be like, I'm sorry

(01:03:00):
you feel that way. M that's actually technically gaslighting. I
could see that You're supposed to say like I'm sorry,
because it's I'm really taking ownership of what you did.
It's saying how you perceived the situation. I wrote it
down or actually sat the other day because I was like,
oh crap, it's more about what I was gonna saying.
He used to say that. I remember that visically, That's

(01:03:23):
where I thought. I think I got it from. I'm
sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry you feel that way. No,
it should be I'm sorry, um that you're feeling this way.
I have to look at it. It was it was
I'm sorry for what I did? You know you say
I'm then also, um, it's like, I admit that that
is hurtful, and and what I loved in it too

(01:03:46):
is the correction? Like, how what can I do so
that it doesn't affect you that way? You know? Is
there anything that I can do to help when I
love that right? Like asking someone like because you don't
sometimes like you don't mean to hurt the person, like
I wouldn't know that if I, Oh my god, Catherine,
no idea that I heard you that way. I'm so sorry?
What can I do insaid of say I'm sorry? Feel like,
what can I do so that that doesn't happen anyway? Yeah?

(01:04:08):
I know for sure it's durning that I need to
say sorry for I'm sorry feel that way? Al Right, guys,
talk to you next week,