Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Jenna Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, I think we should start this episode off with
just talking about the mood that my husband's in right now.
You are in the worst mood.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I've also just noticed that my cup says you're an
awesome mom. Keep that car. It just sums my morning up. Yeah,
it's been an interesting moment.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
You want to talk about it?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yeah, I do. I love that because I had to
step into your shoes this morning and become but one
of the things that you do, and you're like an
expert at it, is promoting the products that people give
to you. So I've obviously done a deal with the
company which I won't name right now, and I had
(00:48):
to do I had to do a real and a
story and my whole world has just ended because I
don't know how to do it. Okay, what's a morning
in the life of all? And it's a it's a
it's a product that you can take before enduring and
(01:09):
after a workout. So I've had to structure that this morning,
which I feared with my workout mm hmm, clearly, because
then dolphins are not flown. I've been released, which is
why I'm a cage line and then I had to
put like a script together for it. So four hours
(01:30):
later and it's still not complete. What's complete now?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
But again, can you put the reil together? Well, so
it's not complete because that's another painful part of it.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I'll get to that part stages, babe, please, But it
gave me. I know it's it's a small part of
what you what you do, bab and but it gave me.
They don't have respect for you, know how much respect
to have you? But give me another level of respect
for you. How you structure these things that you do
(02:03):
because I'm not easy. There's so much what goes into it.
And I think partly is because I am so out
of that saither like you have to explain Okay, well
I know what I realized, but you have to explain, Okay,
here's how your reel should look. How here's how your
story should look. And I honestly I felt the whole model.
(02:23):
I felt like a child would come back to school. Well,
len about that stuff, and I'll get it quickly.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I think there's a piece of this where well, first
of all, you say it's a small part of what
I do. The sad reality is It's a big part
of what I do. Unfortunately, that is what pays the
bills the most, is promoting products and doing Instagram influencing,
which is something that I never thought that I would
ever rely on that for income, but it is. It's
(02:52):
what ultimately pays for a lot of things more than
anything else that comes in. Is just the the reality
with it. I've embraced it. But I think we had
a point where we were going through something and you know,
You're like, I'm not living my dream and this is
(03:13):
my dream, dream, dream dream. And I remember I was
in the middle of doing a reel for a product
and I just I had this like yeah, where I
was like, do you think this is my dream?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Like?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And it wasn't even me getting angry towards you. It
was more just of like, this isn't fun for me either,
But I do this because it a supports my kids.
It gives me a you know, a chance to be
able to be flexible and be somewhat of a stay
at home mom and like present and you know, not
be at the grind of being out touring all the
time and being away and and I think at times,
(03:51):
so there's like that piece of it. So it's like
it's not like I enjoy doing it because it's not
it it takes up a lot of time, and I
think it's really hard because when I talked to not
even like my it's not my parents are just anybody
that doesn't understand like that world of things. Even I
guess you at the time, it's like you don't realize
how much time actually goes into it. It just thinks, oh,
(04:11):
you're just promoting a product because on Instagram it just
just looks like it took thirty to ninety seconds because
that's all the film was. And it's like it's actually
so much more because you want it to look good
and you put the detail into it, and then it
takes that it's truly becomes a job and it becomes
it takes likes it took up your morning, and you
(04:31):
realize how much work actually goes in it.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, and it's not that I don't want to do it,
and it's not the it's just you have a process
in place with it, whereas I don't, and I don't
I don't do it. So it was almost like relearning
something because I used to do a lot of Instagram
stuff before I was I went to England.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, I remember your secret deodorant thing ad that I
saw on Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I used to do a lot of it, but they
would piece it all together for me. So it just
going back to Okay, I need to I've got a lot.
I'm thinking about a load of other things at the moment.
So I was like, Okay, how do I prioritize my
focus on this and structure? Whereas you've now got a
process in place with.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
It, but it still takes up time, It still takes
up hours, and it does the energy.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Because you have we both have high standards with what
we do, so you want to do it properly. So
if you're want to do something, you may as well
do it to the best of your ability. So if
I'm like, like the hardest bit is me sitting in
the swing to your sanctuary room, You're like, Okay, put
this on the mirror, the mirror and then just go
(05:37):
through your story and tell them Like it took me
like forty five minutes just to do my story. Yeah,
it's like this is not good enough. You need to
step your levels up here. So I went and get
my iPad and I noted down key points and sat
it below the below the phone so that when I'm
looking at the iPad, it looks like I'm looking at
the camera. So I cheated my acting days coming in now.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Oh boy, well we're all rooting on influencer Alan. But
it is nice. It's almost like, you know, when you
step into I remember when we were kids. This is
the worst example, but I'm gonna do it anyways. Uh,
the parents were always like, oh, why can't you do that?
And it's like, oh, really, why can't I do a
double axle on? You know, And so it was a
(06:23):
day where the parents had to put on the skates
and it's like, why can't you do that?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Why?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So it's it's nice. It's kind of showing things if
you're not used to doing them, or even when you
do do them, it's not easy. It's not no, it's
it's hard.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's hard if you want to do it properly, like
I could have half off it and done it in
a noah or two hours.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
But yeah, that's still pointing in that, Well, how can
we change the attitude because when you were doing your
store and by the way, I just want to be
I just want to be clear. And the fact that
I was more like, even though you sent me the
brief and you're like, you're okay, I still was like,
this is what you can do, but it's your thing,
(07:10):
so you do whatever you want to do, okay. And
so that's where you know, I at least wanted to say,
like I wasn't like this is how you have to
do it. You can do it however you want to
do it. But when I did come in the sanctuary
and I was trying to show you because you were like, well,
what does three frames mean? And so what I'm trying
to like explain to you, all right, so you're paid
(07:30):
for one story but within three frames, and then you
just kind of gave me a look, and I'm like,
I'm going to exit this right now because this attitude
is not for me or meant for me at this moment.
And I love you.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Just the reflection of how much I hated myself at
that moment.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
The thing, you poor thing. You're getting paid to promote
a product, and.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
It's disgusting only to slap myself in the face and be.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Like you spoiled little yeah, yeah, okay, well I just
did for you. But it's hard Anyways, Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
You're getting seven hundred and fifty thousand to promote this
one product for two was what?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I only get twenty grand for a vibrator? What are
you talking about? Which, by the way, I'm joking, are
you we against? Because against? You don't hate that? Do
you hate the vibrator? Ad? No, wonder it's a little
bit more than that. But I'm just it's hard to
turn that down. I got child support and be.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Careful what I say here on camera. But how would
you like it if I was promoting what a men's
masturbating machine and I'm and I'm sitting like, yeah, go on, guys,
I can't even do the action because being appropriate, being inappropriate.
(08:51):
Go on, guys, you deserve this. Man time is so
important for your mental health. You deserve this. And get
the machine down there, going in twenty five mile. Now
it's almost like my wife can't do it properly. So
now I've got this machine. Go on, you deserve this.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I think it's different. Oh I want to believe it's different. Yeah, okay,
And plus there's nothing like that, is there?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
No? I thought about the woobie.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Do you think so?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
What a machine that beats a guy off of course
of Obie.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It's interesting. I mean, I guess when you do flip it,
it's in you know, it's not.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Like I have to use it though the man time
pro three. You deserve this, listen.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
I mean it's not an easy ad to do. I'll
say that, but I do because you block my mom
and dad. I block everybody. I know everybody, grandparents, are
your parents, stepson, I mean everybody. It's so niece's nephews.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I'm pretty secure and that I'm good. You can post
what you want.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I know, but I do get it, like I do
see that and I'm like, but it's again, it's it's
very hard with yeah, with with you know, the industry
that I'm in the lack of.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
You're going to wear your classices?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Am I what?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
You going to wear your glasses when you post about it?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Why?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Because you like sexy your classes? Go on, ladies, you
deserve this.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Love your sexy librarian.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Love yourself and your secretary. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, okay, moving on, we have Do you wanna because
you deep dived on her this morning or last.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Night with a deep dive that my research as I
normally do because I'm not as natural as this as you.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Are at this, No, I need to do better at that.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
I like to just pack things up so quickly. Well
with the Yeah, her name's Sarah Kubrick, I'm sure that's
how you pronounce itbridge. And she's a millennial therapist.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Which we're millennials, aren't we. I think so, I think,
I think I think we are. Where do you? Because
her big thing is psychotherapy, she unpacks self loss, so
giving us new vocabulary to understand the royally talked about
experienced offers tools she used for years to help clients recover.
(11:34):
Self loss becomes apparent when we do not recognize ourselves
in our actions, words, or relationships, when we lose sight
of who we truly are and feel the pain and
emptiness from performing or observing life rather than living it.
I'm curious you said that with that breathing Where for
you have you? I mean I can probably already guess
(11:58):
which time, but you're biggest self loss time in your life?
And how did you regain that self loss?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah? My biggest self loss was the period from eighteen
to twenty two.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Really, do you want to talk about the moment or no?
One moment that impact? I don't and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, I think some people will lose themselves because of
one incident. Some people will lose themselves because of a
combination in period. And I don't think you get it
back quickly. But one of the one of the biggest
ways of I mean, structure helps you get things back
and focus. To be honest, one of the biggest things
(12:43):
that helped me become myself a given as you me.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
In which area because you know how they always say
that like a person shouldn't be like you should be okay,
like you were okay on your own obviously, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I had to do. Everyone has to do their own work.
And a period or a situation on our occurrence has
to sit with you until you're ready to to actually
deal with it and move on and become either yourself
again or a better version of of who you were before.
(13:22):
But I think having finding finding love in you and
and not that that's the wrong way, not that at
taxed all my happiness towards you, But you came in
and you were like the most amazing person and women
and kind and ambitious and beautiful, and you had your
(13:44):
own traumas from the past, which we shared and discussed
and so I think there was a big part of
you coming in at that point where I was on
the I was on the healing side of it, but
then you came in and I regained my confidence on
(14:05):
like love and appreciation that there's actually the right person
in your person is out there if you get through
the tough times and you navigate through the tough times
and you don't let yourself lost dictate a whole life.
But it's tough. It's tough for people. So it will
(14:28):
be interesting to hear what hard description if she's an expert,
and that she's a psychotherapist, what hard description of self
loss is, and how people and like for the listeners
as well, like there's an education piece on how do
people get out of that self loss? I think so much,
so much of the population is lost.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, that was really sweet and I'll share my where
I believe you also came in for me. But she
is here, so let's take a break and then get
Sarah on.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Hi, Hi, hie, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Nice to meet you, real nice to meet you too.
So we'll just hop right in. Alan was just saying,
I'll let you kind of repeat what you were saying
about the self lost piece of things.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, we were just talking about periods in your life
where you feel or a period in your life where
you feel that you've lost yourself, whether it's one incident
or it's a combination, and a period that's that's gradually
got you to a point where you lose yourself. And
I was just saying, it would be really interesting to
see and hear your description of what actually self loss
(15:44):
is and what you do, because you're an expert in
your field. So people might feel like, oh, I've lost
myself when they really haven't, like what really deems someone
losing themselves.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, because that's an interesting thing because people will say, oh,
I've lost myself, right, because there's times when I've walked
into therapy and I'm like, I'm depressed and she goes, well,
let's let's go through the steps, like and then I'm like, well, no, no, no,
I don't and then it said so she's like, okay,
so it's not that. So let's then like, so you
might be feeling sad, but like let's let's like let's
if they're gonna say those words, let's really attach them
(16:18):
to what you know, the truth is. So oh I
love that.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
So much, And I actually do this with my clients
all the time, like I'm so angry, and then we'll
kind of discuss him, like, well, are you sure you're angry,
Maybe you are hurt, maybe you are whatever it is.
And so getting them to find the word that actually
defines what they're feeling is really powerful. And I think
a lot of people will go, I'm feeling lost, and
(16:44):
sometimes they say that when they don't know what to do.
And that's not the same thing necessarily being like confused,
being uncertain, being frustrated with yourself, not temporarily being not
attuned with yourself. It's not the same thing as being
completely lost. To me, to be fully lost is to
(17:05):
lack alliance, an alignment, and to feel like a stranger
to yourself. So I had this one moment where I
was maybe a little drunk in a whiskey bar in
my twenties, and I remember looking in a mirror and
genuinely just feeling like I didn't know this person. I
(17:26):
didn't recognize her. She was a complete complete stranger to me.
And although that that's an extreme version of it, I
do think it's just not knowing. It's not just I
can't get in touch with myself temporarily. But it's like
I have no idea because the self I don't think
is found, it's created, and it means you haven't created
your sense of self in that moment.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
That's interesting, I think. And I don't want to put
this on you if this isn't true, Alan, but I
just from observing you and then knowing me too. A
lot of times where my self loss comes in is whether, well, a,
if I wasn't this is like you know, pre pre
my divorce was you know, if the relationship, if I
(18:08):
wasn't in a good relationship, I would feel kind of
lost and then wondering where my life is going. But
now in this relationship, I feel like my loss goes
more like what am I doing with my life? Like
sometimes like if we're not getting a job opportunity and
you know, kind of same with him, like our jobs
are so not typical and they're massive. There's more disappointment
(18:28):
than there is getting jobs, and so it's you know,
we kind of well, we'll have wins sometimes, but then
most of the time it's like, oh, we just lost this,
and it's just like and then we both go to
a place of what am I doing with my life.
I have not you know, I'm just like this list loss,
like we have nothing and we're just like you know,
and but it really affects us. And so it's like,
how do you not let that piece of that self loss?
(18:53):
Is that self loss? And then like how do you
not let that just take over every all the goodness
that is actually around?
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that sounds a
bit like an existential crisis of like what am I
doing here? Like what is the freaking point? And that's
not necessarily the same a self loss of like I
don't know who I am, but they can go hand
in hand, particularly when we overidentify with a role. So
(19:21):
I have this horrifying story that when I was dating
someone again in my twenties. He was this auzy surfer
dude and I was very smitten and we went out
a couple times and I was like, I'm living the dream.
I was like visiting For a second. He's like, you know,
you seem like a really nice girl, So I'm going
to tell you the truth as to why this is
not going to work out for us, And I was
(19:42):
like real and comfortable. I was like, oh my god,
I'm being dumped and he's going to tell me why
I think this is terrible. I don't want to know.
And he looks at me and he goes, you're so
incredibly boring, and I was like, really obviously appendic because
I think I'm a hoot, I'm pretty funny. I was like,
what are you talking about? And he goes, it's because
(20:06):
all you talk about is akademia. He's like, I've never
had a conversation with you that didn't end up being
about grad school, that didn't end up being about psychology,
that didn't end up being about existentialism. He's like, it
is just so boring to talk to you. And although
I think that was a little harsh, probably unecessary, there's
other ways to communicate that. It was such a good
(20:27):
eye opener because in that moment, I actually realized I
didn't know anything else to talk about, and I had
no other role that I was really identifying with. So
I felt like, if you took that away from me,
there would be no one to see. And this was
before kind of my big breakdown over self loss. And
so I think when it comes to career stuff, when
(20:48):
it gets really dangerous, or when it shifts from like
an existential crisis to more like self loss is when
we over identify with that role of being an actor,
being an athlete, being a psychologist, being an account and
then that isn't being sort of given back to us,
and there are no opportunities, and now we feel like
(21:08):
there's nothing else that's left. And so what's really helpfully
in those moments is to realize what other roles you have,
and that your identity comprises of a lot of roles,
and that you can choose which ones you want to honor,
which ones you want to lean into, which ones you
want you know, to have meaning in. And so I
think that that can really help because it is devastating
and it's just subjectively shitty when when things don't work
(21:31):
out with our career, but more so when we kind
of hang our identity on that.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
It's a really good answer. Yeah, because I've become a
barista because I just make myself coffees.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Well, No, he's what he what he does specifically is
like and and I do the same thing where I'm like,
I'm just a shady after and I'm never going to
work ever again, and like I've got absolutely nothing and
then Alan's like, you know, I just cut the grass
and you know, I've like and he's like, I'm just
going to be, you know, and then he goes to
his cabin alone in the woods that's actually not a
(22:02):
real place, but it's a real place in his mind.
So then he just like pushes away. And so I
think we both just don't do well with what we
want to have come to fruition and then it's like
taken Like it's like our dreams are like taken away.
We lose our identity.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I think, Yeah, it's a really good it's a really
good point that you make on the identity because particularly
because we've done it with whole life, so when it
doesn't serve you the way that, when it doesn't give
you back what you put into it, it becomes really
frustrating and disappointing. And that kind of leads me to
my next point, which is something that you you have
you have said previously, is about feeling people feel more
(22:43):
in control by reliving old pathons. So when you lose
the role, or you lose like I go, don't get
considered for a head coach and whatever it may be,
you almost feel okay, right, I'm gonna I'm going to
manage this by doing what I used to do to
feel comfortable. And you almost tend to unless you stop yourself.
(23:05):
You slip into old pathons, don't you. How do you?
I think? And again, I think it's really big for
our for our listeners, because so many people, when they
get disappointment or they feel heart or they feel pain,
will automatically default and deviate to those to those patterns
where they feel more in control and more comfortable. How
(23:27):
do people stop doing that or how do you help
people stop doing that? Because I think it's a big
one for us as well, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Yeah, it's interesting when we don't achieve our goals, we
go back to doing the same thing that made us
not achieve our goals in the first place. And this
is this is not just you know, maybe in our
professional lives, it's also in relationships. It's like, these types
of conversations led to this argument or left to like,
led to the fact that you guys are not sleeping
(23:56):
in the same bed. So maybe let's know, let's not
go not go back to those patterns even though they
feel super familiar. And that's something about our brains that
familiar feel safe. And so my question with my clients
is always how can we make you feel safe to
try something different, because what you're seeking is safety, like
(24:16):
control is often just sort of a manifestation of fear,
And so how can we make you feel safe trying
something different that will then maybe lead to a different result.
And I think it's also important to emphasize that sometimes
what we think will make us happy won't. I don't
know if you've ever had like a goal where like,
(24:37):
oh my god, I must achieve this. Then you had
it and you're like, Okay, of course that was like
a little disappointing.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Well, I think there's a what's next, But I think
there's also like it might and you even said this too,
like you might not like as much as I'm like, yeah,
I want to be a series regular again on a
TV show, I might hate doing that again, you know
what I mean, Like I've gotten so comfortable and happy
and you know, good and this what I am doing
and being able to be home and so flexible, and
I might hate that schedule again. And you might not
(25:07):
like the schedule when you have to be away so
much again, you know, and it might not be actually
what we're making it out to be this like dream
of like every it's going to be I will be
so happy when X happens.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Yeah, we either romanticized the unknown or we're completely scared
of it.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
And I mean he romanticizes and I'm scared of it.
And that's where we then.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Are amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
The fallout of the full spectrum.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
But we're never just curious about it. I think we're
so committed one way or or another. We're like, this
going to be amazing. And then there are so many
people that are achieve amazing things, objectively amazing, but because they
weren't aligned with them, because it wasn't really there, it
was an authentic they they're disappointed and they assume that
getting this one thing would make life worth living. And
(25:56):
now that they're at the top, they go, well, and
it's scary because you're like, I don't know where else
to climb. So there is that one alternative, and then
there is the I'm so scared and so I'm not
even going to try it. And it goes back to
like safety honesty, being honest about the situation, about the outcome,
and just being curious of like, well, I enjoy this
(26:18):
there's so many things I thought I would enjoy and
then I did it, and then I try to convince
myself that I'm enjoying them for a long time until
I was like, oh, this actually it's all It's all
in my head. I convinced myself to enjoy this. And
I think this is where self loss happens too. Like
something that you said at the start was just so
bang on of Like, I think either it happens gradually
(26:41):
or there's a big event that kind of fractures your
sense of self, maybe something traumatic or a loss or
a divorce or even becoming a parent, just a transitional phase.
And then there are subtle things that we do, which
is betray ourselves, abandon ourselves, not pay attention to ourselves
that can then lead to this like huge disconnect.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
What are some ways that you talk about in your
book It's on me how to reconnect with yourself?
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, so I talk a lot about the fact that
it's a lot more simple than we think it is,
but it's a lot of work. So it's simple but hard.
It's not complicated, And I often think about it in
terms of imagine you're having a relationship with someone else,
it's the exact same thing. We assume that because we
(27:31):
are us, we will understand ourselves, we will like ourselves.
But that's just not true. And so many people stry
for self love and I think that that's a really
admirable goal, and as an existentialist, I kind of chuckle
a little bit and I was like, Okay, let's let's
take it back. So for me to be able to
love yourself, you first need to know yourself. And people
(27:52):
skip that step. They try to go into like I'm
gonna love this, my I'm gonna love and they can't
define the me the I. And so it's like, do
you know yourself? Do you accept who you see? Do
you respect the person that you see? Do you like
spending time with this person? And then maybe we can
kind of get to love. And so that's what I
(28:12):
talk about in my book of like are you connecting
with yourself mentally? Are you connecting with your body? Are
you connecting with your emotions? And it's not you know,
the body is the trickiest one where I think a
lot of people think of their body just as a
vessel or a tool. And I think this is where
we miss out, where I think you are your body
and your body is you, and so if you mistreat
(28:33):
your body, which so many of us do, is going
to lead to self loss. And no matter how emotionally
in touch you are, or intellectually you can kind of
conceptualize and self actualize, you're still going to feel really disconnected.
So those are kind of three areas that I.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Talk about, where do you think people lose Like like
one of the first kind of flags for losing yourself,
you know, like we always put a flag on other people,
(29:09):
but if we could put a flag on ourself, Like,
what would that be? Like the red flag that within
us that we lose ourselves.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
I think not recognizing your own actions is a good one.
I don't know, if you've ever done something and then
looked at your sod be like what was that? Like
you shock yourself, You kind of surprise yourself and not
in a good way. I think that that's a really
good one. And then also a lot of resentment. If
you're feeling a lot of resentment, chances are you're doing
(29:39):
a lot of things that are violating who you are.
And if you do not pay attention, at some point,
you might reach self loss. So I think those would
be the two biggest. No one's ever asked me that question.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
By the way, Well, I feel like, you know, we
all if other people can label people with red flags,
it's like we should be able to lay ourselves with
what our red flags are.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Oh yeah, and I mean seeking identity and relationships. If
we're talking about like red flags, If you're someone who
always overly identifies with being a partner, and their preferences
fully become your preferences, and their dream become your dream dreams,
chances are that you don't actually know who you are,
(30:23):
and they're just a crutch. They help you not feel
the agony and the emptiness of not knowing yourself. So
you take on their identity and where it as your
own until that relationship ends.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Okay, So a lot of your stuff you talk about
dating and relationships, don't you, And pardon a lot of
your A lot of your work is dating in relationships.
And I read something earlier that it was as I
scrolled down your social media, and it's you that's not controversial,
that body. It says they nineteen ninety six, you had
(31:02):
me at Hello dating. In twenty twenty four, you had
me at I go to therapy, which I thought was
really funny. But I think I guess my question from
that is, which of those periods you think is a
was a healthier as a healthier time to date people?
Was that the nineteen nineties a healthier dating era or
(31:27):
is now this kind of period of people are And
I think a lot of it they mask by the way,
like walk people and people who now know themselves. I
think a lot of it's fake in all, honestly, and
use it as a smoke screen for all the bullshit
that they do. But out of those two periods, what
(31:50):
is it, what is a healthier Do you think now
the modern dating and relationship is a healthier period for
people or not? Or was it more simple in the
past in the nineties?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Whin as social media? So anything without social media is
like a win in my book.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Some people see that as a as a bonus because
they can it can it can cast a like a
mat and dragon more.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, what's how you found me? Bad? Social media would
never found me in the nineties.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I love that it's cute. Well, you had me at
hello is an incredibly low bar, So I would say,
let's not do that. That kind of depresses me. I
also think there's something so toxic, if I can say
about that concept of like in that moment when they
said hello to you, even if you're absolutely smitten, all
(32:38):
you're doing is projecting on that person. And so when
I see it that way, I'm like, Okay, I totally get.
It was a simpler time, and maybe people weren't pretending
to be as self enlightened, and they were just more
honest about their faults and who they were, and people were,
you know, maybe not complicating relationships as much. He was like,
(32:59):
I love you, and now we're just going to make
your work. And there is something really cute and idyllic
about the way that love was portrayed in the nineties.
And at the same time, that concept is very I mean,
it's rooted in projection. So I saw you, I was
attracted to you, and then I put my dreams on you,
and it was like, yes, that is my person. Now
(33:21):
you had me at you go to therapy. I like this.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Now.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Do I think there's a lot of people that weaponize
mental health? Yes? Do I think there's a lot of
you know, like boys and people who like use all
the right words because they are also on these therapy
Instagram pages and have read the self help books and
now they're using these words to sort of justify their
own actions. And I'll see videos of this and they'll
(33:48):
just be horrifying because if you heard them, you'll be like, Wow,
this is a really educated individual. This is an individual
that reads self help. And then the way that they
use the words is very manipulative. It's very harm and
so therapy can just be a gimmick. People can be
like I go to therapy, I'm going to be such
a great partner, and you know, it's kind of like
a selling point. But I think if you genuinely see
(34:10):
that someone is doing the work and is in therapy
intentionally trying to be a better person, I think that
makes all the difference, because your relationship is only going
to be as good as who you are as individuals. Sure,
and so I think that that's important to remember.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
In your book, you talk about mental decluttering. What is
that and how can people do that? Because I'm like, well,
I'd never even heard of that before.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah, it's making space for yourself. I think a lot
of us have mental noise, so a lot of beliefs,
a lot of relationships that We're thinking about a lot
of hobbies and habits and things that just take up
so much space that when people talk about you know, okay, Sarah,
(34:56):
well I want to be myself and I want to
create myself. How do I do that? And I say,
you have to mentally to clutter. What I mean is like,
let's say you wanted to make a lasagna. I'm hungry,
it's a dinner time. Let's say you want to make
a lasagna. And then we walked into your kitchen and
every pot and pan was used or dirty, The floor
was sticky, the sink was overflowing with dishes, the oven
(35:17):
already had things in it. You would have a really
hard time making lasagna. And that's the same principle. You
have to declutter. You have to actually make space so
that you can start creating yourself. So the shoulds, the assumptions,
the beliefs, all that stuff you need to put it
on paper. You're like, what are all my shoulds? What
(35:37):
are all the things I feel like I should do?
What are all the things I believe about life, love, God, religion, politics,
the body, literally anything, And just kind of have this
process of like what do I want to keep and
what do I not want to keep? What is going
to be part of my lasagna? And what's not going
(35:58):
to be part of my lasaga? Yeah, and I think
that's an important thing to sort of think about. We
have so much going on in the background at all times,
and I'm sure as people who are in a relationship
and parents, right, congratulations, you have so much that you
(36:20):
probably think about. And you know you're thinking about your
kid even if you're not with your kid, And so
that's kind of the can you quiet the noise? Can
you have time and space to actually be yourself and
what needs to be there and what doesn't need to
be there?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah? What do you want? The biggest takeaway to be
from your book?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Take responsibility for your life. I mean, it's called It's
on Me, and that's I mean a pretty intense message
and it makes it a really difficult Christmas book, although
I think, you know, people should still buy each other
in the book because it's I genuinely believe the responsibility
is a beautiful thing. It's not blame. It's freedom and
(37:01):
it's autonomy and realizing that, Okay, if you're living a
life that you don't want, if you're being a version
of yourself that you don't like, if you're you know,
in this relationship dynamic that is not going super well,
ask yourself, what is my responsibility recognizing that you can
change yourself. Now it's trick here with other people in
different dynamics, but what you can do is your own part.
(37:22):
And you know, there was a time in my life
where I really didn't like myself. Then I realized it
was on me to change it. No one was going
to change it for me. No one could change it
for me. And so if you're feeling lost, if you're
feeling disappointed, if you're feeling purposeless, if you're really struggling
with meaning in your life, I think understanding that you
(37:43):
have the capacity to change all of those things for
yourself it's really.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Powerful, Sarah, what would be the one thing? Because I
love doing this to my therapist too, because I'm always like,
you're not perfect, right, Like tell me like, let's flip Like,
let's flip it. What's going on?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
You've done this?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Like you said, you're not a square? Okay, like I've been.
I was called that one time on a date, like
you're such a square. I was like, oh okay, thanks,
but so you're not boring. We're not boring, But what
is one thing that you can take responsibility on today?
And the question is going to you too, So.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Oh, can I hear all your answer?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, we're all gonna we're all gonna take responsibility for
something to close.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Out safety circle like well with a couple.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Of hundred thousand listeners. But it's fine, I.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Mean, no big deal. I think something Actually this is
really relevant because I've been working on it the last
couple of days. I'm I'm working on too many things
that I do not find meaning in anymore, and I
just I am really struggling. I have way too much
going on, way too many balls in the air and
things that I don't even know how they got in
the air. Now I'm like, what are you doing up there?
(38:47):
And so I think I need to take responsibility for
just genuinely cutting down and going back to just working
on core things that I really care about, not only
because I don't want to feel lost again, but because
I think it's the healthier, loving thing to do. So
I need to take responsibility for that.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I think I need to take responsibility. Well, there's plenty
of things, but I think one of the things that
I was just recently talking to my therapist about was
just I have so much I have like anger inside
of me that I need to release pieces of that.
And so I did do some amdr this session around it.
(39:28):
But sometimes the people that are around me can maybe
get that response because I'm just like dealing with so
much or having some leftover resentment and anger, and where
I just get, I get my fuse is short, and
I need to maybe take some things off the plate
so that my fuse isn't like that extreme and get
(39:48):
frustrated easily.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah, I think mine will be, and it's quite relevant
to this conversation. Mine would be. I'm going to say
responsibility for the clustering because it's affected me this morning.
I've I've got so many things in the air that
I should be doing, like you, but because I can't
prioritize and put them in order of importance and how
they should be done, I've become angry at myself. So
(40:13):
therefore my emotions get the better of me. So I've
got two things I need to prioritize declustering because that
will that will help my anger and emotions.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
I like that, Y.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Like we're gonna just like text each other in about
a month and be like did you do it? Accountability?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I'm going to be sliding into your DM thereah and
being like okay.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
So yeah, this is not going well.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah the lasagna is not cooking in the oven.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah, or we've got tenels on you it's cooking and
I've learned how to cook all of a sudden. So
there we go.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
But I want, yeah, everyone take a little responsibility now
and then go get it's on me. It's available now, Sarah,
thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Thank you appreciate it. Just laden and soon see you soon. Bye, okay,
bye girl. Let was sweet. I think it's good that
when people take it's the people that just point and
don't point the finger back at themselves, you know, because
I always said that where it was like post divorce,
I'm like, I could point the finger at this person
for the longest time, but I also need to reflect
it back on me. And this is you know, I'm
(41:20):
staring at myself in the mirror, So where do I
clean up?
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah? There's that, but those also I think some things
you really hollered on yourself yeah, those are a sleek everything.
Those a balance, Those are balance.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
You're right, all right? Well that was fun. How are
you feeling? Are we feeling less heated, less angry? Or
where are we at with your anger today? Because we
day night later. So I just want to see how
the rest of this day is going. But I've I
don't know if you've noticed, but I don't take it
on anymore your.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Emotions, my midswings.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
No, I Just'm like, are he's in a mood?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Which Alan is going to show up for at night tonight?
Speaker 2 (42:04):
To be determined when you guys watch our stories later?
Is if you flash back to Wednesday? Was was there
a candle at dinner? Or was Jannah alone? I love
you