August 6, 2025 • 21 mins
Do you consider yourself a “people pleaser”? Jana and Allan dive deep into their past to find the root of their people pleaser tendencies, and psychotherapist Meg Josephson is on hand with some expert advice.
Find out why we feel the need to ask things like “are you mad at me?” and why “can we talk?” is one of the worst texts you can get!
Plus, Allan reveals what happened when he stopped caring what others think!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This week's adult education, We've got Meg Josephson coming on.
She's got a new book, Are you Mad at Me? Babe?
Are you mad at me?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Are you mad at me? How to stop focusing on
what others think and start living for you? Let's get
her on. Hello, Hi, Hello, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm doing great? How are you guys doing good? Good?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Thank you?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to talk with you.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Of course, and yeah, let's just get right into it.
So cool. I feel like one of the most number
one maybe like common phrases are are you mad at me?
I know I used to say it all the time.
I don't think I do it. I don't think I
do it now, but past relationships out I's book.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Are you mad at Me?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Why are you mad at me?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
And for you just to start like from the very beginning,
like how did this concept come about?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Where was this in your life? And then let's get
into it. Well, you're not alone in thinking and asking
that question. I think many of us feel alone in
it because there's quite a lot of shame tied up
there's a lot of overthinking that's just happening up here
in the head, so we're not seeing that other people
are thinking and wondering that, But for me it definitely started.
(01:23):
And in your book the next chapter, I think you
touch on this a lot. It started early on with
my dad, where he was super volatile and rageful and critical,
and so for me, just wondering are you mad at me?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Was my form of self protection.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
I just thought, oh, if I keep pleasing him, or
if I keep impressing him, or I'm perfect enough or
I'm good enough, then things will be okay, or the
peace will be kept at home, or I'll be enough
for him.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So for me that are you mad at me?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Came from managing his moods and regulating his emotions for him,
and that was so protective.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
For me growing up.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
And this is what we can talk about of, you know,
with the faun response of this is a self protective mechanism,
and I needed that. But when I left home and
I was in my adult life, it wasn't as needed,
but it was still there. And so wondering if my
dad was mad at me turned into overthinking social interactions
(02:30):
and wondering if my friends are mad at me and
feeling like I was going to get fired.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Anytime my boss said do you have a sec or
can we talk?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Can we talk? Is probably the worst text message you
can get.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Immediate stomach drop. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Yeah, So that's certainly how it has evolved for me.
And just recognizing oh my gosh, I really didn't need
that and that was really useful, and not shaming myself
more becoming aware of that pattern so that I can
see it and say do I need to be doing
this right now? That's that's where it started for me,
(03:08):
and now as a therapist in my private practice, I
that's what I work on with clients too.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
You can relate to that.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I went through a phase in my life where every
phone call that would come through, I'll be like, oh, no,
what have I done? Why is this person phoning? And
it's just like a that kind of anxiety that sits
in your stomach, where what have I done? Mm hmm,
like why is why is this person phoning? And they
(03:36):
they phoned it to tell me or ask me why
have I done this? Or why have I done that?
I think it comes from having anxious phases in your
life as well mine was not necessarily my childhood. Yeah,
mine was more later in my later in my life,
but it kind of left me a feeling of most
times in the phone ring, I'm like, oh, no, what
(03:57):
have I done? What's this person need?
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Yeah, you're speaking to something important in that that it
doesn't it's this instinct to fawn, to appease the threat
that's in front of us.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Can you give more, like, help me understand what fawning is?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
So many of us are familiar with fight or flight
as a threat response.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
We have four threat responses.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Freeze is the third and fawn is the fourth one,
and it's what I believe is the most common but
least recognized threat response, and that it's about when the
body's detecting a threat, whether or not that threat is real,
like someone's about to hurt us, or there's a line
in front of us, or perceived like there's a shift
(04:40):
in mood, and then you're like, oh, are they mad
at me?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Or they didn't.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Respond to your text? Oh gosh, what did I do?
I did something wrong? The fawn response is about appeasing
the threat. It's about trying to be liked by it,
impressing it, satisfying it. So, for example, if you're part
as being a little cold or stand offish, and you
immediately think, oh, maybe your instinct is are we okay?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Are you mad at me? Do you still love me?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Or maybe you're being really helpful or maybe you're complementing
them as a way to appease and as a way
to diffuse the situation. And sometimes we need it. It's
certainly very useful and protective in a lot of situations
to survive within systems, to get a paycheck. But when
(05:29):
we're doing it all the time, when we don't need it,
that's when it's exhausting. So just this thought of it
doesn't have to be just childhood because it's in our
It's an instinct within us. We can learn it in
an abusive relationship, we can learn it in a toxic
work environment. It's an instinctive response that we can use
(05:50):
at any time.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, I think I think mine probably like, yeah, I
can relate obviously to the father stuff, but I think
mine came from more of the DV background, because it's
like I didn't want to upset them, so it's like,
are are you okay? Like what can I just because
I'm like I don't want to get hit again, or
I don't want them to Yes, anything I do to backfire,
So let me try to just diffuse the situation.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
And I know that you've spoken about that marriage and
the abuse that happened within it, and the fun response
is so common in DV relationships because it's kind of
the only thing in your control and so and it's
also we're talking about self blame here, where blaming ourselves
(06:33):
is how we can make sense of abuse when no
one else is acknowledging it. If you're in a relationship
with someone who's abusive, or you have a parent who's
abusive or manipulative or whatever, blaming ourselves is the only
way that it can make sense, and which you know
keeps us stuck in that pattern.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
It's me, it's my fault. Something's wrong with me, and
I need to fix myself to be good enough for
this person that's abusing.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Me, right, because if I was good, then they wouldn't
be abusing me. Yeah, exactly, so fun, so fun awful.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I listened to a lot of your social media stuff
this morning, and I really liked it. And there's some
there's some questions within here as well, and one of
them is about avoiding conflict. Yeah, so I've got a
question around that. So the only people I avoid conflict
with other people that I love is I don't want
(07:41):
to get in conflictual situations with them, so I just
try and avoid it rather than maybe I don't want
to have the conversation or however I do it. I
avoid it. But it's only with the people that I
love and I'm close to. Anyone else I'm quite happy
to have conflict with. I don't I don't instigate it,
(08:01):
but if they want to be disrespectful and just conflict,
then I'm there for it. But it's so it's just
strange that I really avoid it with the people that
I love.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Darly, that actually makes a lot of sense to me,
because avoiding conflict puts the relationship at risk. I mean, sorry,
conflict itself to the part that learned to fear conflict
puts the relationship at risk. So it makes sense that
you would avoid conflict with the most high stake relationships,
(08:34):
because what would that mean if someone who really really
knew you and loved you you got into a conflict
with and there was a big rupture and the relationship
was over or ruined, which is what this part believes.
If I get into a conflict with someone, there's no
going back. It's done. That's what a lot of us
learn with our experiences. For people that you really love
(08:57):
and want in your life, that would feel really gary
to lose them. So I actually think it makes a
lot of sense versus like an acquaintance or a colleague
that you don't have a deep, all knowing relationship with. Ugh,
maybe they don't know you so well and it wouldn't
hurt so badly. But to be abandoned in conflict by
someone that really knows you, that's such a deeper cut.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
But it is important to have you know because if not,
then it comes out sideways. Right. So what would be
a tip to manage that piece of it?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Yeah, well, this has been such a piece of work
for me personally in my healing and with my clients
as well as conflict is actually and when I say conflicts,
let's clarify what I mean. I'm not talking about repetitive,
cyclical conflicts in a toxic dynamic.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Here.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
We're talking about natural friction that arises in a relationship
and it's actually so healthy, especially with people that are
close to us and that really know us and love us,
because conflicts can only happen if both people are able
to be themselves, because there's enough room and space and
(10:12):
safety for differing opinions to exist. If there's a little
bit of friction here and there, it means both people
can have their own opinions, and that's such a beautiful thing.
So because many of us learn to fear and avoid
conflicts because we've seen it handled and disregulated or unsafe ways,
(10:34):
the healing happens in showing ourselves, oh my gosh, we
had a disagreement with my best friend and she's still here,
she still loves me. Or I brought something up to
my partner that was really bothering me and I expressed
it in a way that felt good and they listened.
And when we can show ourselves that we can have
(10:54):
a little bit of friction and it doesn't mean the
relationship is over. Sometimes it will mean that, but those
people weren't meant for us anyway. When we can recognize
and see and show ourselves that a little bit of
conflict can actually lead to more understanding and closeness because
we're letting someone into our deepest most intimate thoughts and feelings,
(11:19):
it's actually an opportunity for more closeness, right.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I agree with that, Yeah, every I think those all
lead to growth moments and learning and understanding. What are
(11:43):
some of your biggest tips in your book to stop
focusing on what other people's you know, thoughts and opinions
are of you.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
I would say the most simple takeaway is because the
faun responds people pleasing, wanting to be seen as perfect,
This is such an unconscious mechanism to bring it into
the conscious mind. Pausing a pause is a people pleaser's
best friend. Because we're doing this, there's an urgency with
(12:14):
people pleasing. It's no, no, no worries, No, it's totally fine,
Oh no problem, Or you're apologizing first, or you're trying
to diffuse it quickly to pause. What's happening here? Am
I safe? Do I need to be people pleasing? Do
I need to be over explaining myself? That pause automatically
(12:35):
brings that unconscious response into the conscious mind so that
we can see it and maybe choose something else, or
at least just recognize that we're safe in that moment.
I can certainly go into more context based tips as
well if we want to go like boundaries or but
(12:56):
you tell me what you're going.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
That's all in the book.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Though, Yeah, I've got one. I've got one where maybe
you can provide some context, context or clarity. Right. So, naturally,
growing up, I was a people pleaser, not to everyone,
but to certain people. And it's it's strange because when
I look back on my life and my career, there's
(13:19):
certain periods and phases, and those periods and phases that
have always been the most successful career wise by finances,
is where I've actually switched off and just been an
absolute dick and not cared about what anyone thinks or
my family. That's that's a bit different, but almost like
(13:39):
a like a healthy arrogance that kicks in where I'm like,
I don't care what anyone else thinks. This is what
I'm doing, this is how I do it. And then
anyone that doesn't want to be involved, they can they
can leave. And those and it's tough because these those
periods in my life I've noted it here were my
most successful fin actually my most successful career wise. I
(14:04):
probably was happy in a lot of those those phases,
but the would be periods where I would sit down
and reflect and be like, this is not who I am.
But it's tough because you're getting You're getting all the
other things that come from it, like the career stuff
and the finances, And I'm like, how.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Does this work?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Because this is where my identity is in my career,
But here I don't feel like I'm being myself. So
there must be a balance somewhere in the middle where, yeah,
where you find that we are not people pleasing, but
you're also not being totally elusive to everyone else's thoughts
and feelings, which I probably was at those times.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And is to clarify, I want to just draw a
threat here is you're saying that in the periods of
your life where you were people pleasing is when you
were the most successful, or when you didn't care you
were the most.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Successful, When I didn't care, I was the most successful.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
I think it's such a great reflection. Something really important
to understand about this cycle of people pleasing is that
it's rooted in we rely on external validation to know
that we're safe, and so this is why it can
go so underdetected because it works. It works to be
(15:25):
attuned to what people are thinking of us. It works
to be so charismatic and perfect and good like it
works for a short amount of time. So I think
that balance that you're speaking to the question to kind
of differentiate, to know, is this a healthy balance of
caring or not caring, or being hyper attuned to what
(15:47):
people think of me or not get caring at all?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Is am I abandoning myself?
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Because in order for us to appease other people, we
need to neglect ourselves in the process. And I think
that there's a misconception, which is maybe what you're touching
on is that, oh, I if I heal this people pleasing,
I'm just like kind of an a whole and I'm
setting really harsh boundaries with everyone and I don't care
(16:15):
and I'm just being so rude, And there's it's not
black or white, there's not this. People think that there's
often this passivity with healing this people pleasing pattern of
I don't care at all, it's apathetic, And that balance
is really being connected to ourselves. And so I think
(16:37):
that's such a beautiful point that you spoke to of
you realized, Oh, this isn't me, this isn't who I am.
That is the exact question or thing to notice is
when we lose touch with our internal world to come
back to ourselves, how is this feeling for me?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
How do I feel doing this? What are my values?
This is aligning with me?
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Do I feel rezis and fall or angry or noticing
what's happening internally When we aren't, we're abandoning ourselves.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So I think that's the question to come back to.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yeah, that's a good point. I think I've noted here
as well, Like when I go through the people pleasing phases,
like certainly later in life you end up. My viewpoint
on it now is probably a cynical one where a
few people please you will get you will eventually get
shafted emotionally and professionally. Yeah, And that's what I mean
(17:31):
about finding the balance in the middle, because I can
be the guy up there quite easily who doesn't care.
I can quite easily be the person that tries to
people please, but I know that I'm eventually going to
get shafted, so I don't like being there either. I
need to take the balance in between where I'm the
person that I want to be and not that I
don't have that balance sometimes, but I'm personally need to
(17:53):
be without being that person and also the person who's
trying to please everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Oh, absolutely, because people pleasing.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
In the faun response, there's an inauthenticity to it, and
that we are morphing ourselves to be what other people
want us to be and inauthentic. And I say that
quite neutrally, and that it's we're disconnected from who we
really are when we're doing that, so to because because
(18:22):
in order for us to fawn, we have to abandon
ourselves to even just come back and say, does this
feel real to me? Do I feel like I'm being
myself or do I feel like I'm kind of being
a chameleon in these relationships and I'm kind of schmoozing
and whatever. That is such a great messenger of Oh,
I need to come back.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I need to ground myself a bit.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
I need to come back to who I am and
what I'm actually needing right now.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, the chameleon thing is huge. I'd written about that too.
Where I was like twenties even into my middle thirties,
is like I would just be kind of what they
wanted me to be.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
It's like, yeah, oh, you.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Smoke cigarettes, so do I, And I'm like, no, I
don't like I am selling a cigarette exactly, but we
like my hair up. Well, I don't like my airp
but I'm putting my hair up now every single day.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
But I think too, Like even with social media, I
remember when I used to read comments, it's like you're
too much of this, and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna
not be too much this, and then I'm gonna like
I'll stop showing my boobs or or I'm too you
know it's and then I started to just go, oh wait,
I'm I'm just trying to get them to like me
when this doesn't. And then I felt everything I was
doing was unforced to then try to appease them. And
(19:35):
I realized I was like, no, they're just gonna dislike
me forever, and that's I have to just like own
that they won't like me no matter what I do,
wear this or don't wear that, or say this or
don't say that or own this or don't own that
Like I, they won't like me, and I just have
to go, Okay, I want I need to be myself
and take it or leave it kind of thing. But
(19:56):
it's not easy. I'm not like, it's still not easy. Yeah, well,
you know the people pleasing person that I wanted. The
one hundred percent approval rate still hurts, but it doesn't
affect me the way that it used to affect me,
like it used to really depress me.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, that's beautiful testament to the hard work that you've done,
and that it's the fond response, hard at work of
let me be everything for everyone and the humble truth.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Humbling truth is that even.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
If we're perfect or we are perfectly catering ourselves to everyone,
people will still have perceptions of us that we don't
agree with, people will misunderstand us. And have a chapter
called Nothing Is Personal, which talks about this of we're
all seeing other people in the world through the lens
of our own inner world, which is our beliefs and
(20:46):
our fears and our insecurities, and there's nothing objective happening,
and so yeah, to just come back to ourselves, what
do I think of this?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Does this feel good to me? Do I like this
photo of myself?
Speaker 4 (21:00):
But again, because the faun response is so rooted in
external validation, it, oh, they liked they liked this, so.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
They like me. So now I'm good and to flip it.
Do I like this? Do I feel good? That's such
an empowering switch.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It so is, Meg, You are just so well spoken. Yeah,
I am adding to Kart and everyone should too. It's
are you mad at me? How to stop focusing on
what others think and start living for you? Uh? Yeah,
you're You're wonderful. So thank you so much for.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Thank you so much, really for having me appreciate it. You,
thank you, thank thanks very thank you.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Meg.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Okay, talk to you soon. Bye bye
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This week's adult education, We've got Meg Josephson coming on.
She's got a new book, Are you Mad at Me? Babe?
Are you mad at me?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Are you mad at me? How to stop focusing on
what others think and start living for you? Let's get
her on. Hello, Hi, Hello, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm doing great? How are you guys doing good? Good?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Thank you?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to talk with you.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Of course, and yeah, let's just get right into it.
So cool. I feel like one of the most number
one maybe like common phrases are are you mad at me?
I know I used to say it all the time.
I don't think I do it. I don't think I
do it now, but past relationships out I's book.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Are you mad at Me?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Why are you mad at me?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
And for you just to start like from the very beginning,
like how did this concept come about?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Where was this in your life? And then let's get
into it. Well, you're not alone in thinking and asking
that question. I think many of us feel alone in
it because there's quite a lot of shame tied up
there's a lot of overthinking that's just happening up here
in the head, so we're not seeing that other people
are thinking and wondering that, But for me it definitely started.
(01:23):
And in your book the next chapter, I think you
touch on this a lot. It started early on with
my dad, where he was super volatile and rageful and critical,
and so for me, just wondering are you mad at me?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Was my form of self protection.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
I just thought, oh, if I keep pleasing him, or
if I keep impressing him, or I'm perfect enough or
I'm good enough, then things will be okay, or the
peace will be kept at home, or I'll be enough
for him.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So for me that are you mad at me?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Came from managing his moods and regulating his emotions for him,
and that was so protective.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
For me growing up.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
And this is what we can talk about of, you know,
with the faun response of this is a self protective mechanism,
and I needed that. But when I left home and
I was in my adult life, it wasn't as needed,
but it was still there. And so wondering if my
dad was mad at me turned into overthinking social interactions
(02:30):
and wondering if my friends are mad at me and
feeling like I was going to get fired.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Anytime my boss said do you have a sec or
can we talk?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Can we talk? Is probably the worst text message you
can get.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Immediate stomach drop. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Yeah, So that's certainly how it has evolved for me.
And just recognizing oh my gosh, I really didn't need
that and that was really useful, and not shaming myself
more becoming aware of that pattern so that I can
see it and say do I need to be doing
this right now? That's that's where it started for me,
(03:08):
and now as a therapist in my private practice, I
that's what I work on with clients too.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
You can relate to that.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I went through a phase in my life where every
phone call that would come through, I'll be like, oh, no,
what have I done? Why is this person phoning? And
it's just like a that kind of anxiety that sits
in your stomach, where what have I done? Mm hmm,
like why is why is this person phoning? And they
(03:36):
they phoned it to tell me or ask me why
have I done this? Or why have I done that?
I think it comes from having anxious phases in your
life as well mine was not necessarily my childhood. Yeah,
mine was more later in my later in my life,
but it kind of left me a feeling of most
times in the phone ring, I'm like, oh, no, what
(03:57):
have I done? What's this person need?
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Yeah, you're speaking to something important in that that it
doesn't it's this instinct to fawn, to appease the threat
that's in front of us.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Can you give more, like, help me understand what fawning is?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
So many of us are familiar with fight or flight
as a threat response.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
We have four threat responses.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Freeze is the third and fawn is the fourth one,
and it's what I believe is the most common but
least recognized threat response, and that it's about when the
body's detecting a threat, whether or not that threat is real,
like someone's about to hurt us, or there's a line
in front of us, or perceived like there's a shift
(04:40):
in mood, and then you're like, oh, are they mad
at me?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Or they didn't.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Respond to your text? Oh gosh, what did I do?
I did something wrong? The fawn response is about appeasing
the threat. It's about trying to be liked by it,
impressing it, satisfying it. So, for example, if you're part
as being a little cold or stand offish, and you
immediately think, oh, maybe your instinct is are we okay?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Are you mad at me? Do you still love me?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Or maybe you're being really helpful or maybe you're complementing
them as a way to appease and as a way
to diffuse the situation. And sometimes we need it. It's
certainly very useful and protective in a lot of situations
to survive within systems, to get a paycheck. But when
(05:29):
we're doing it all the time, when we don't need it,
that's when it's exhausting. So just this thought of it
doesn't have to be just childhood because it's in our
It's an instinct within us. We can learn it in
an abusive relationship, we can learn it in a toxic
work environment. It's an instinctive response that we can use
(05:50):
at any time.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, I think I think mine probably like, yeah, I
can relate obviously to the father stuff, but I think
mine came from more of the DV background, because it's
like I didn't want to upset them, so it's like,
are are you okay? Like what can I just because
I'm like I don't want to get hit again, or
I don't want them to Yes, anything I do to backfire,
So let me try to just diffuse the situation.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
And I know that you've spoken about that marriage and
the abuse that happened within it, and the fun response
is so common in DV relationships because it's kind of
the only thing in your control and so and it's
also we're talking about self blame here, where blaming ourselves
(06:33):
is how we can make sense of abuse when no
one else is acknowledging it. If you're in a relationship
with someone who's abusive, or you have a parent who's
abusive or manipulative or whatever, blaming ourselves is the only
way that it can make sense, and which you know
keeps us stuck in that pattern.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
It's me, it's my fault. Something's wrong with me, and
I need to fix myself to be good enough for
this person that's abusing.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Me, right, because if I was good, then they wouldn't
be abusing me. Yeah, exactly, so fun, so fun awful.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I listened to a lot of your social media stuff
this morning, and I really liked it. And there's some
there's some questions within here as well, and one of
them is about avoiding conflict. Yeah, so I've got a
question around that. So the only people I avoid conflict
with other people that I love is I don't want
(07:41):
to get in conflictual situations with them, so I just
try and avoid it rather than maybe I don't want
to have the conversation or however I do it. I
avoid it. But it's only with the people that I
love and I'm close to. Anyone else I'm quite happy
to have conflict with. I don't I don't instigate it,
(08:01):
but if they want to be disrespectful and just conflict,
then I'm there for it. But it's so it's just
strange that I really avoid it with the people that
I love.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Darly, that actually makes a lot of sense to me,
because avoiding conflict puts the relationship at risk. I mean, sorry,
conflict itself to the part that learned to fear conflict
puts the relationship at risk. So it makes sense that
you would avoid conflict with the most high stake relationships,
(08:34):
because what would that mean if someone who really really
knew you and loved you you got into a conflict
with and there was a big rupture and the relationship
was over or ruined, which is what this part believes.
If I get into a conflict with someone, there's no
going back. It's done. That's what a lot of us
learn with our experiences. For people that you really love
(08:57):
and want in your life, that would feel really gary
to lose them. So I actually think it makes a
lot of sense versus like an acquaintance or a colleague
that you don't have a deep, all knowing relationship with. Ugh,
maybe they don't know you so well and it wouldn't
hurt so badly. But to be abandoned in conflict by
someone that really knows you, that's such a deeper cut.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
But it is important to have you know because if not,
then it comes out sideways. Right. So what would be
a tip to manage that piece of it?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Yeah, well, this has been such a piece of work
for me personally in my healing and with my clients
as well as conflict is actually and when I say conflicts,
let's clarify what I mean. I'm not talking about repetitive,
cyclical conflicts in a toxic dynamic.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Here.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
We're talking about natural friction that arises in a relationship
and it's actually so healthy, especially with people that are
close to us and that really know us and love us,
because conflicts can only happen if both people are able
to be themselves, because there's enough room and space and
(10:12):
safety for differing opinions to exist. If there's a little
bit of friction here and there, it means both people
can have their own opinions, and that's such a beautiful thing.
So because many of us learn to fear and avoid
conflicts because we've seen it handled and disregulated or unsafe ways,
(10:34):
the healing happens in showing ourselves, oh my gosh, we
had a disagreement with my best friend and she's still here,
she still loves me. Or I brought something up to
my partner that was really bothering me and I expressed
it in a way that felt good and they listened.
And when we can show ourselves that we can have
(10:54):
a little bit of friction and it doesn't mean the
relationship is over. Sometimes it will mean that, but those
people weren't meant for us anyway. When we can recognize
and see and show ourselves that a little bit of
conflict can actually lead to more understanding and closeness because
we're letting someone into our deepest most intimate thoughts and feelings,
(11:19):
it's actually an opportunity for more closeness, right.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I agree with that, Yeah, every I think those all
lead to growth moments and learning and understanding. What are
(11:43):
some of your biggest tips in your book to stop
focusing on what other people's you know, thoughts and opinions
are of you.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
I would say the most simple takeaway is because the
faun responds people pleasing, wanting to be seen as perfect,
This is such an unconscious mechanism to bring it into
the conscious mind. Pausing a pause is a people pleaser's
best friend. Because we're doing this, there's an urgency with
(12:14):
people pleasing. It's no, no, no worries, No, it's totally fine,
Oh no problem, Or you're apologizing first, or you're trying
to diffuse it quickly to pause. What's happening here? Am
I safe? Do I need to be people pleasing? Do
I need to be over explaining myself? That pause automatically
(12:35):
brings that unconscious response into the conscious mind so that
we can see it and maybe choose something else, or
at least just recognize that we're safe in that moment.
I can certainly go into more context based tips as
well if we want to go like boundaries or but
(12:56):
you tell me what you're going.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
That's all in the book.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Though, Yeah, I've got one. I've got one where maybe
you can provide some context, context or clarity. Right. So, naturally,
growing up, I was a people pleaser, not to everyone,
but to certain people. And it's it's strange because when
I look back on my life and my career, there's
(13:19):
certain periods and phases, and those periods and phases that
have always been the most successful career wise by finances,
is where I've actually switched off and just been an
absolute dick and not cared about what anyone thinks or
my family. That's that's a bit different, but almost like
(13:39):
a like a healthy arrogance that kicks in where I'm like,
I don't care what anyone else thinks. This is what
I'm doing, this is how I do it. And then
anyone that doesn't want to be involved, they can they
can leave. And those and it's tough because these those
periods in my life I've noted it here were my
most successful fin actually my most successful career wise. I
(14:04):
probably was happy in a lot of those those phases,
but the would be periods where I would sit down
and reflect and be like, this is not who I am.
But it's tough because you're getting You're getting all the
other things that come from it, like the career stuff
and the finances, And I'm like, how.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Does this work?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Because this is where my identity is in my career,
But here I don't feel like I'm being myself. So
there must be a balance somewhere in the middle where, yeah,
where you find that we are not people pleasing, but
you're also not being totally elusive to everyone else's thoughts
and feelings, which I probably was at those times.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And is to clarify, I want to just draw a
threat here is you're saying that in the periods of
your life where you were people pleasing is when you
were the most successful, or when you didn't care you
were the most.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Successful, When I didn't care, I was the most successful.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
I think it's such a great reflection. Something really important
to understand about this cycle of people pleasing is that
it's rooted in we rely on external validation to know
that we're safe, and so this is why it can
go so underdetected because it works. It works to be
(15:25):
attuned to what people are thinking of us. It works
to be so charismatic and perfect and good like it
works for a short amount of time. So I think
that balance that you're speaking to the question to kind
of differentiate, to know, is this a healthy balance of
caring or not caring, or being hyper attuned to what
(15:47):
people think of me or not get caring at all?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Is am I abandoning myself?
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Because in order for us to appease other people, we
need to neglect ourselves in the process. And I think
that there's a misconception, which is maybe what you're touching
on is that, oh, I if I heal this people pleasing,
I'm just like kind of an a whole and I'm
setting really harsh boundaries with everyone and I don't care
(16:15):
and I'm just being so rude, And there's it's not
black or white, there's not this. People think that there's
often this passivity with healing this people pleasing pattern of
I don't care at all, it's apathetic, And that balance
is really being connected to ourselves. And so I think
(16:37):
that's such a beautiful point that you spoke to of
you realized, Oh, this isn't me, this isn't who I am.
That is the exact question or thing to notice is
when we lose touch with our internal world to come
back to ourselves, how is this feeling for me?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
How do I feel doing this? What are my values?
This is aligning with me?
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Do I feel rezis and fall or angry or noticing
what's happening internally When we aren't, we're abandoning ourselves.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So I think that's the question to come back to.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yeah, that's a good point. I think I've noted here
as well, Like when I go through the people pleasing phases,
like certainly later in life you end up. My viewpoint
on it now is probably a cynical one where a
few people please you will get you will eventually get
shafted emotionally and professionally. Yeah, And that's what I mean
(17:31):
about finding the balance in the middle, because I can
be the guy up there quite easily who doesn't care.
I can quite easily be the person that tries to
people please, but I know that I'm eventually going to
get shafted, so I don't like being there either. I
need to take the balance in between where I'm the
person that I want to be and not that I
don't have that balance sometimes, but I'm personally need to
(17:53):
be without being that person and also the person who's
trying to please everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Oh, absolutely, because people pleasing.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
In the faun response, there's an inauthenticity to it, and
that we are morphing ourselves to be what other people
want us to be and inauthentic. And I say that
quite neutrally, and that it's we're disconnected from who we
really are when we're doing that, so to because because
(18:22):
in order for us to fawn, we have to abandon
ourselves to even just come back and say, does this
feel real to me? Do I feel like I'm being
myself or do I feel like I'm kind of being
a chameleon in these relationships and I'm kind of schmoozing
and whatever. That is such a great messenger of Oh,
I need to come back.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I need to ground myself a bit.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
I need to come back to who I am and
what I'm actually needing right now.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, the chameleon thing is huge. I'd written about that too.
Where I was like twenties even into my middle thirties,
is like I would just be kind of what they
wanted me to be.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
It's like, yeah, oh, you.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Smoke cigarettes, so do I, And I'm like, no, I
don't like I am selling a cigarette exactly, but we
like my hair up. Well, I don't like my airp
but I'm putting my hair up now every single day.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
But I think too, Like even with social media, I
remember when I used to read comments, it's like you're
too much of this, and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna
not be too much this, and then I'm gonna like
I'll stop showing my boobs or or I'm too you
know it's and then I started to just go, oh wait,
I'm I'm just trying to get them to like me
when this doesn't. And then I felt everything I was
doing was unforced to then try to appease them. And
(19:35):
I realized I was like, no, they're just gonna dislike
me forever, and that's I have to just like own
that they won't like me no matter what I do,
wear this or don't wear that, or say this or
don't say that or own this or don't own that
Like I, they won't like me, and I just have
to go, Okay, I want I need to be myself
and take it or leave it kind of thing. But
(19:56):
it's not easy. I'm not like, it's still not easy. Yeah, well,
you know the people pleasing person that I wanted. The
one hundred percent approval rate still hurts, but it doesn't
affect me the way that it used to affect me,
like it used to really depress me.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, that's beautiful testament to the hard work that you've done,
and that it's the fond response, hard at work of
let me be everything for everyone and the humble truth.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Humbling truth is that even.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
If we're perfect or we are perfectly catering ourselves to everyone,
people will still have perceptions of us that we don't
agree with, people will misunderstand us. And have a chapter
called Nothing Is Personal, which talks about this of we're
all seeing other people in the world through the lens
of our own inner world, which is our beliefs and
(20:46):
our fears and our insecurities, and there's nothing objective happening,
and so yeah, to just come back to ourselves, what
do I think of this?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Does this feel good to me? Do I like this
photo of myself?
Speaker 4 (21:00):
But again, because the faun response is so rooted in
external validation, it, oh, they liked they liked this, so.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
They like me. So now I'm good and to flip it.
Do I like this? Do I feel good? That's such
an empowering switch.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It so is, Meg, You are just so well spoken. Yeah,
I am adding to Kart and everyone should too. It's
are you mad at me? How to stop focusing on
what others think and start living for you? Uh? Yeah,
you're You're wonderful. So thank you so much for.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Thank you so much, really for having me appreciate it. You,
thank you, thank thanks very thank you.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Meg.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Okay, talk to you soon. Bye bye
Host
Jana Kramer
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