October 10, 2025 • 19 mins
Jana is ready to completely change the way she thinks about intimacy when she talks to Dr. Emily Nagoski!
Find out an easy method to make talking about sex with your partner easier, and she shares the secret to reigniting the spark for couples trying to balance kids and work.
Plus, discover the one thing that couples who have great sex have in common!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This week's Adult Education, We've got Emily Nagosky on, and
I'm really excited to talk to her because not only
is she a writer, educator, researcher, activists, she talks a
lot about sex and she's got some ted talks out there,
She's got a bunch of books. But let's get comfortable
with the idea of talking about sex. Hey, Emily, Hello,
(00:29):
how are you.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I'm good? How are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I am very excited to speak with you. You've got
obviously you know, your books and like you're just you're
doing a lot. You're talking, you know, very openly about sex,
which I think is a I have certain friends that
shy away from it, and then I have certain friends
that are like, let's talk about it, like a very
you know, loves loves to talk about sex. But I'm
(00:55):
curious the correlation with with you between because I used
to always just be like, if you're not having sex,
then we're not intimate, and that being kind of what
was in my brain of what intimacy was. But it's
so much more than that. So can you kind of
break that down with like the stigmas around, like, well,
(01:15):
if we're not having sex, then we're not intimate.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, so what does it mean to be intimate with someone?
For me, that's about the boundaries that you set, and
boundaries certainly can be about physical boundaries. There are limitations
on which parts of my body can be touched in
which ways by which people right, and we each get
to set those rules for ourselves, and those boundaries can
(01:40):
always be renegotiated and changed as a relationship changed. But
the more parts of your body you would let a
person touch in a wider variety of ways, that certainly
can be greater intimacy. And also there's the whole other
part of emotional intimacy. Lord knows there's an overlap between
(02:02):
emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, which is I think where
people conflate the two because they're not distinct from each other.
It requires a degree of emotional vulnerability to open yourself
up to being touched in parts of your body that
maybe for years of your life you were told are
(02:25):
shameful and dirty and wrong and bad and gross. So
to allow another person to have contact with those parts
of your body, and also to allow someone to have
those contact with parts of your personality, parts of your self,
parts of your identity that you were told by other
(02:45):
people were unacceptable. To share that with someone is to
be intimate. In my opinion, that's sort of the way
that the two are parallel.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Do you find it the people that I have a
hard time talking about sex? What? What? What do you
find comes up for them? That's the block with it?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Oh, they got raised to believe that it is unacceptable
to talk about sex.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Absolutely, Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
These are people who struggle to talk about sex so
much that they can't even talk about sex with the
person they have sex with.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Right, how do you then kind of overcome that?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Then?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Like, how do you get comfortable with the fact with
the idea of talking about sex?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
What a great question. A therapy is always an option,
but really it's about recognizing that if you are in
any way dissatisfied with your sex life, there is no
magic wand anyone can wave to make it better. To
sort of like psychically transmit to our partner this is
(03:48):
what I want, without you ever having to say the
words with your mouth or write them in a letter
or otherwise explicitly communicate to your partner what it is
that you want or to find out what it is
your partner has been waiting for and wanting, and you'd like,
how are you supposed to know? Many of us were
(04:08):
raised with the idea that to talk about sex is
it already means you're doing something wrong. There must be
something broken and dysfunctional and wrong with your relationship if
you have to talk about it. And the reality is
that the people who self identify as having extraordinary optimal
sex lives talk about sex all the time. The more
(04:29):
you talk about it, the better it gets. So it
starts with the what if? What if it? What if
it was okay for me to say these words out loud,
even just by myself. I'm in a room and I'm
just gonna say clitteris, glitteris, vulva, breast, labia, vagina, scrotum, penis.
(04:57):
What if it's okay to say those words? And it's
exact the same as saying elbow, toe, kneecapchin. They're just
exactly the same emotionally in the same way. Because we
can have our conversations with a partner about money, the kids,
where we want to live, jobs, politics, we can talk
(05:20):
with people about difficult, complicated things so if we have
the skill set to have those conversations, then we have
the skill set to talk about sexuality also when we
are willing to consider the possibility that it actually is
just as normal and acceptable and welcome a part of
life and connection as all those other things.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So funny though, because those words just I mean, even
when you're younger, it's like, you know, you don't say
like some of those words, you know, because there's not
that comfortable.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, I have this feeling from you if you're being like,
I want to say the sentence without saying any of
those words.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I know, right, and like, I don't know why I can't,
but because I am pretty, I mean, I openly talk
about sex. I have no problem talking about sex. But yeah,
I can definitely see how it's not the easiest conversation
to have. I mean, you know, I'm curious for you. Okay,
so it's starting to say those words. But is there
something where I think, honestly, if it's a very vulnerable thing,
(06:20):
because if you start talking about sex in your marriage
and you put yourself out there, but then you get rejected,
and I think that's the piece that I would not
deal with good. I mean that happened in my last marriage,
you know, where I would say something about it and
then it would be that rejection like a yeah, and
so then it's kind of like, yeah, all right, well
(06:40):
it's not just it's you know, yeah, you take it personal.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah. So these are the things people are afraid of
if you're feeling personally motivated, like I want to talk
about it with my partner, but I am afraid either
I'm gonna say something that hurts their feeling, is they
take it personally. They take it as an attack or criticism.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
If they're not doing it right or right.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
That there's somehow like irreversibly wrong with them and the relationship,
when the whole goal of having the conversation, of creating
that invitation to talk about it is I want this
to be better for us. I think there's more that's
available that we could create if we collaborate. You want
it to be an open door, and there's this fear
that your partner is gonna take it not that way,
(07:28):
or you're afraid you're going to say something about what
you want and like that's going to horrify your partner
and they're never gonna be able to look at you
the same way. Again, those are two of the big
fears that people bring into these conversations that really set
it apart from conversations about the kids, or money, or
politics or all the other hard things that we talk
about with each other. And to solve that, I really
(07:53):
recommend apart from therapy is having a conversation about the conversation.
So if you're worried that your partner's going to take
it personally, they're going to take it as an attack
or criticism. And many of us are raised to be
just so tender around topics related to sexuality. We take
(08:13):
the least like your partner just says something like a
little to the left or a little bit faster, a
little slower, a little harder, and you're like, oh, no, oh,
I'm a failure, I'm a bad person. There's something terribly
like No, they're giving you the input that you need
in order to be the best sex partner your partner
has ever had, which ultimately, like, I mean, let's face it,
(08:36):
that's the goal, right, Yeah, we want to be the
best our partner ever had. They're literally telling us.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
How right.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I mean, I feel like infidelity would go down a
bit like if they're getting met in the bedroom too, if.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
For no other reason than just because you're with someone
who listens to what you say you want and like
that is a component of.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
A healthy dream.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, so have a conversation about the conversation, right, I
want to have a conversation about sex. I personally, this
is how you introduce it. I did not grow up
culturally being taught that it was okay to talk about sex.
But you and I we do it. We want to
(09:26):
do it. So what's stopping us from being able to
talk about a thing that we do together and being
able to say I'm worried you're gonna take it as
a personal attack. I'm worried that I'm gonna say something
that's going to gross you out. So are there may
be like some ground rules we can establish for in
(09:50):
case one of us feels activated in that way. We
have a plan for like taking like a fifteen second
deep breath ba break to just like let the emotions
come back down. Or you can talk about like what
the barriers are. Like When I was growing up, I
was taught that this part of life, this part of
(10:13):
my body, this part of these set of behaviors are
unacceptable to talk about. And I don't know what my
brain or body thinks is gonna happen if I talk
about it, But my body is totally convinced that if
I dare to tell you my favorite things you do,
something terrible is gonna happen, right like letting each other know? Yeah,
(10:38):
I I don't even There wasn't even an explicit moment
in my life when I remember being taught this message,
and yet I have this set, this fear that if
I say it out loud, something bad will happen. If
you got raised as a boy, in particular, you were
raised to believe that you're supposed to already know everything
(11:00):
there is to know. You're supposed to not require any feedback.
And and your partner's orgasm is do you know, like
a at a county fair, there's that strength tester machine, right,
You're using a hammer and you hit the thing and
the thing goes up and it goes ding, and that
ringing of the bell means you're a man. That's what
(11:21):
your partner's orgasm is. It means you're a man. And
so if your partner doesn't have an orgasm, then you're
not a man. And that is why a lot of
people start faking orgasms because they are tired, and they
both won. Their partner has made it clear that they're
not allowed to communicate what they want and like verbally
(11:44):
and two, so like their partner's not doing like the
ideal thing because you're not allowed to tell your partner
the ideal thing. And also like because it's not ideal,
it requires like time and energy. And so you he
needs to feel like a man. So you're just gonna
go ahead and help him out with that and show
(12:07):
him the orgasm that he feels like needs to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Right, cool, Wow, I like the man.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Now.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I'm always going to think of you when I go
to a state fair. And so there you go. So
couples that have had kids and they're tired, like you said,
(12:39):
to get that spark back.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
What is your groceries cooking meals.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
If it's past a certain time, like I'm out, you know,
but like what is what is your tip for couples
that have lost that spark in the bedroom and how
to get that back.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah. So one of the most important research groups studying
sexuality now is the Optimal Sexual Experiences Group in Ottawa, Canada.
Peggy Klein Plotz and Dana Maynard published a book a
few years ago called Magnificent Sex. And if that's not
just the most appealing.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I mean a title, what I mean like grabbing that
one from the shelf.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
The researchers interviewed dozens of people of all backgrounds and
ages who responded to a call for people, do you
have extraordinary, excellent, magnificent sex? We want to talk to
you and like, don't you want to know how you
get to be a person who has that kind of sex?
And don't you want to know what that kind of
(13:40):
sex is like? If you want to be like the
kind of people who self identify as having extraordinary, magnificent,
optimal sexual experiences. Spontaneous horniness desire for sex barely scrapes
into the top ten characteristics. That is not what people
(14:02):
who have great sex lives talk about when they talk
about great sex. So if you're not experiencing the spark, cool,
you're doing it the way people who have great sex
lives do it. They plan, they schedule, they talk about
it because it's like a shared hobby you talk to
your partner about, like your favorite musicians. You get excited
(14:25):
about the album that's coming out, and the concert you're
gonna go to, you plan, you go to the concert together,
and you have a great time, and then on the
way home, and for days and weeks after, you keep
talking about this great experience you had at the concert.
That's how people who have great sex treat their sex lives.
They talk about it all the time. They're so excited
(14:47):
to share, Like, you know what, last time when we
did this thing that was really interesting and I had
a great time, and also I was wondering if maybe
we could try this other thing next time. What do
you think about that? They have, Like while they're chopping vegetables,
they're talking about, what if we try this other thing.
I've never done that before. Oh man, there's a part
(15:09):
of me that's like, WHOA, that's probably not okay. But anytime,
what we've learned is that anytime my body goes WHOA,
that's not okay, I'm probably gonna love it. So don't
worry about spark you time set up A time scheduling
doesn't work for everybody. Some people have the kind of
brain that like if something isn't that stresses me, they
(15:31):
just shut down.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, Like I'm like if I know that it's coming
tonight at eight pm, like I'm out. I got a
little bit of a cough.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So my first question, there's two different ways that that
could be happening, and one could be just that you
have the kind of brain that when you feel like
it's expected or obligatory, you have like this persistent demand
for autonomy, and you're just like, because you told me,
I have to no, Like, if it weren't on the calendar,
I might be interested.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Mom's tired, you know, no matter, I need one more
thing on my list. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So that brings up the other part, which is, okay,
so it's one more thing on your list, But do
you like the sex available in your relationship? Because if
it's on your calendar at eight o'clock tonight, and what
you see on your calendar is, ugh, it's such a project.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
No, it's great, I love it, but great, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
If you are if you like the sex it's available
in your relationship, you are doing it. If you don't
like the sex it's available in your relationship, which is
probably a lot of other people's experiences. Please know it's
gonna sound so obvious when I say it out loud,
but please know that it is not dysfunctional not to
want sex. You do not like. You are not you
(16:51):
do not have a desire problem. If you don't like
the sex and don't want sex, you don't like you
have a pleasure problem. So the question is what kind
of sex is worth wanting? What kind of sex is
worth cordoning off the time and energy that is definitely
required in order for you to see it on your
(17:15):
calendar and not go.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Ugh, yeah, Emily, you're fascinating, you really are.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Can I just say that the other side of it,
where like you like the sex, you know that you
would have a good time. I would say, think about
it the same way you think about maybe like working
out or eating a giant mountain of vegetables. Love is
have you never had the experience where like I know
that if I just put on my shoes and went
(17:42):
out the door, I would be so glad I did that.
I know I would have a good time.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's like my rum this morning. Did I want to run?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
No?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
But did I do it? Yes? And do I feel
like were you glad? Yeah? Great? Okay, good. That's a
great way to think of it. That's a really good
way to switch it. Like if you like them.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, the people who are like I hate to exercise,
that's not a useful metaphor. So maybe like going to parties.
You know, you say yes, it's your best friend and
a party, of course, yes, and then the date approaches
and you're like, I'm gonna have to find childcare. Yeah,
it gonna be so tired, it's gonna be traffic. Do
I really want to put on hard pants and the week?
(18:23):
But you show up because it's a party and your
best friend, and if you have a good time at
the party, you're doing it right.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You You are great? Sum up for me? Last question,
what is your definition of intimacy?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
For me, it's about daring to allow another person to
see and feel the parts of me that I feel
really belong in who I am. But there are a
lot of people who if I showed them those parts
of me, whether it's emotional or intellectual or physical, they
(19:00):
would not agree with me that those parts are good.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Great, I love it, Emily, tell us where, tell our
listeners where they can find you, and all the things
you've got going on.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Oh, mostly it's about the books. Come as you Are
is the first one. That's the one that's about basically
women's sexuality come together as the one for folks in
long term sexual relationships. And if you are listening to
this and being like I don't, I can't even get
five hours of sleep A night. Burnout is a book
I co wrote with my twin that's about people who've
(19:32):
been trained to believe that they are pretty happy, calm, generous,
and unfailingly attentive to the needs of others, but they
cannot cannot get anyone to care for their needs as
much as they care for others.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I love it. Emily, Thank you so much for coming
on my pleasure.
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This week's Adult Education, We've got Emily Nagosky on, and
I'm really excited to talk to her because not only
is she a writer, educator, researcher, activists, she talks a
lot about sex and she's got some ted talks out there,
She's got a bunch of books. But let's get comfortable
with the idea of talking about sex. Hey, Emily, Hello,
(00:29):
how are you.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I'm good? How are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I am very excited to speak with you. You've got
obviously you know, your books and like you're just you're
doing a lot. You're talking, you know, very openly about sex,
which I think is a I have certain friends that
shy away from it, and then I have certain friends
that are like, let's talk about it, like a very
you know, loves loves to talk about sex. But I'm
(00:55):
curious the correlation with with you between because I used
to always just be like, if you're not having sex,
then we're not intimate, and that being kind of what
was in my brain of what intimacy was. But it's
so much more than that. So can you kind of
break that down with like the stigmas around, like, well,
(01:15):
if we're not having sex, then we're not intimate.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, so what does it mean to be intimate with someone?
For me, that's about the boundaries that you set, and
boundaries certainly can be about physical boundaries. There are limitations
on which parts of my body can be touched in
which ways by which people right, and we each get
to set those rules for ourselves, and those boundaries can
(01:40):
always be renegotiated and changed as a relationship changed. But
the more parts of your body you would let a
person touch in a wider variety of ways, that certainly
can be greater intimacy. And also there's the whole other
part of emotional intimacy. Lord knows there's an overlap between
(02:02):
emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, which is I think where
people conflate the two because they're not distinct from each other.
It requires a degree of emotional vulnerability to open yourself
up to being touched in parts of your body that
maybe for years of your life you were told are
(02:25):
shameful and dirty and wrong and bad and gross. So
to allow another person to have contact with those parts
of your body, and also to allow someone to have
those contact with parts of your personality, parts of your self,
parts of your identity that you were told by other
(02:45):
people were unacceptable. To share that with someone is to
be intimate. In my opinion, that's sort of the way
that the two are parallel.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Do you find it the people that I have a
hard time talking about sex? What? What? What do you
find comes up for them? That's the block with it?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Oh, they got raised to believe that it is unacceptable
to talk about sex.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Absolutely, Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
These are people who struggle to talk about sex so
much that they can't even talk about sex with the
person they have sex with.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Right, how do you then kind of overcome that?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Then?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Like, how do you get comfortable with the fact with
the idea of talking about sex?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
What a great question. A therapy is always an option,
but really it's about recognizing that if you are in
any way dissatisfied with your sex life, there is no
magic wand anyone can wave to make it better. To
sort of like psychically transmit to our partner this is
(03:48):
what I want, without you ever having to say the
words with your mouth or write them in a letter
or otherwise explicitly communicate to your partner what it is
that you want or to find out what it is
your partner has been waiting for and wanting, and you'd like,
how are you supposed to know? Many of us were
(04:08):
raised with the idea that to talk about sex is
it already means you're doing something wrong. There must be
something broken and dysfunctional and wrong with your relationship if
you have to talk about it. And the reality is
that the people who self identify as having extraordinary optimal
sex lives talk about sex all the time. The more
(04:29):
you talk about it, the better it gets. So it
starts with the what if? What if it? What if
it was okay for me to say these words out loud,
even just by myself. I'm in a room and I'm
just gonna say clitteris, glitteris, vulva, breast, labia, vagina, scrotum, penis.
(04:57):
What if it's okay to say those words? And it's
exact the same as saying elbow, toe, kneecapchin. They're just
exactly the same emotionally in the same way. Because we
can have our conversations with a partner about money, the kids,
where we want to live, jobs, politics, we can talk
(05:20):
with people about difficult, complicated things so if we have
the skill set to have those conversations, then we have
the skill set to talk about sexuality also when we
are willing to consider the possibility that it actually is
just as normal and acceptable and welcome a part of
life and connection as all those other things.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So funny though, because those words just I mean, even
when you're younger, it's like, you know, you don't say
like some of those words, you know, because there's not
that comfortable.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, I have this feeling from you if you're being like,
I want to say the sentence without saying any of
those words.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I know, right, and like, I don't know why I can't,
but because I am pretty, I mean, I openly talk
about sex. I have no problem talking about sex. But yeah,
I can definitely see how it's not the easiest conversation
to have. I mean, you know, I'm curious for you. Okay,
so it's starting to say those words. But is there
something where I think, honestly, if it's a very vulnerable thing,
(06:20):
because if you start talking about sex in your marriage
and you put yourself out there, but then you get rejected,
and I think that's the piece that I would not
deal with good. I mean that happened in my last marriage,
you know, where I would say something about it and
then it would be that rejection like a yeah, and
so then it's kind of like, yeah, all right, well
(06:40):
it's not just it's you know, yeah, you take it personal.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah. So these are the things people are afraid of
if you're feeling personally motivated, like I want to talk
about it with my partner, but I am afraid either
I'm gonna say something that hurts their feeling, is they
take it personally. They take it as an attack or criticism.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
If they're not doing it right or right.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
That there's somehow like irreversibly wrong with them and the relationship,
when the whole goal of having the conversation, of creating
that invitation to talk about it is I want this
to be better for us. I think there's more that's
available that we could create if we collaborate. You want
it to be an open door, and there's this fear
that your partner is gonna take it not that way,
(07:28):
or you're afraid you're going to say something about what
you want and like that's going to horrify your partner
and they're never gonna be able to look at you
the same way. Again, those are two of the big
fears that people bring into these conversations that really set
it apart from conversations about the kids, or money, or
politics or all the other hard things that we talk
about with each other. And to solve that, I really
(07:53):
recommend apart from therapy is having a conversation about the conversation.
So if you're worried that your partner's going to take
it personally, they're going to take it as an attack
or criticism. And many of us are raised to be
just so tender around topics related to sexuality. We take
(08:13):
the least like your partner just says something like a
little to the left or a little bit faster, a
little slower, a little harder, and you're like, oh, no, oh,
I'm a failure, I'm a bad person. There's something terribly
like No, they're giving you the input that you need
in order to be the best sex partner your partner
has ever had, which ultimately, like, I mean, let's face it,
(08:36):
that's the goal, right, Yeah, we want to be the
best our partner ever had. They're literally telling us.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
How right.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I mean, I feel like infidelity would go down a
bit like if they're getting met in the bedroom too, if.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
For no other reason than just because you're with someone
who listens to what you say you want and like
that is a component of.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
A healthy dream.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, so have a conversation about the conversation, right, I
want to have a conversation about sex. I personally, this
is how you introduce it. I did not grow up
culturally being taught that it was okay to talk about sex.
But you and I we do it. We want to
(09:26):
do it. So what's stopping us from being able to
talk about a thing that we do together and being
able to say I'm worried you're gonna take it as
a personal attack. I'm worried that I'm gonna say something
that's going to gross you out. So are there may
be like some ground rules we can establish for in
(09:50):
case one of us feels activated in that way. We
have a plan for like taking like a fifteen second
deep breath ba break to just like let the emotions
come back down. Or you can talk about like what
the barriers are. Like When I was growing up, I
was taught that this part of life, this part of
(10:13):
my body, this part of these set of behaviors are
unacceptable to talk about. And I don't know what my
brain or body thinks is gonna happen if I talk
about it, But my body is totally convinced that if
I dare to tell you my favorite things you do,
something terrible is gonna happen, right like letting each other know? Yeah,
(10:38):
I I don't even There wasn't even an explicit moment
in my life when I remember being taught this message,
and yet I have this set, this fear that if
I say it out loud, something bad will happen. If
you got raised as a boy, in particular, you were
raised to believe that you're supposed to already know everything
(11:00):
there is to know. You're supposed to not require any feedback.
And and your partner's orgasm is do you know, like
a at a county fair, there's that strength tester machine, right,
You're using a hammer and you hit the thing and
the thing goes up and it goes ding, and that
ringing of the bell means you're a man. That's what
(11:21):
your partner's orgasm is. It means you're a man. And
so if your partner doesn't have an orgasm, then you're
not a man. And that is why a lot of
people start faking orgasms because they are tired, and they
both won. Their partner has made it clear that they're
not allowed to communicate what they want and like verbally
(11:44):
and two, so like their partner's not doing like the
ideal thing because you're not allowed to tell your partner
the ideal thing. And also like because it's not ideal,
it requires like time and energy. And so you he
needs to feel like a man. So you're just gonna
go ahead and help him out with that and show
(12:07):
him the orgasm that he feels like needs to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Right, cool, Wow, I like the man.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Now.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I'm always going to think of you when I go
to a state fair. And so there you go. So
couples that have had kids and they're tired, like you said,
(12:39):
to get that spark back.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
What is your groceries cooking meals.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
If it's past a certain time, like I'm out, you know,
but like what is what is your tip for couples
that have lost that spark in the bedroom and how
to get that back.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah. So one of the most important research groups studying
sexuality now is the Optimal Sexual Experiences Group in Ottawa, Canada.
Peggy Klein Plotz and Dana Maynard published a book a
few years ago called Magnificent Sex. And if that's not
just the most appealing.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I mean a title, what I mean like grabbing that
one from the shelf.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
The researchers interviewed dozens of people of all backgrounds and
ages who responded to a call for people, do you
have extraordinary, excellent, magnificent sex? We want to talk to
you and like, don't you want to know how you
get to be a person who has that kind of sex?
And don't you want to know what that kind of
(13:40):
sex is like? If you want to be like the
kind of people who self identify as having extraordinary, magnificent,
optimal sexual experiences. Spontaneous horniness desire for sex barely scrapes
into the top ten characteristics. That is not what people
(14:02):
who have great sex lives talk about when they talk
about great sex. So if you're not experiencing the spark, cool,
you're doing it the way people who have great sex
lives do it. They plan, they schedule, they talk about
it because it's like a shared hobby you talk to
your partner about, like your favorite musicians. You get excited
(14:25):
about the album that's coming out, and the concert you're
gonna go to, you plan, you go to the concert together,
and you have a great time, and then on the
way home, and for days and weeks after, you keep
talking about this great experience you had at the concert.
That's how people who have great sex treat their sex lives.
They talk about it all the time. They're so excited
(14:47):
to share, Like, you know what, last time when we
did this thing that was really interesting and I had
a great time, and also I was wondering if maybe
we could try this other thing next time. What do
you think about that? They have, Like while they're chopping vegetables,
they're talking about, what if we try this other thing.
I've never done that before. Oh man, there's a part
(15:09):
of me that's like, WHOA, that's probably not okay. But anytime,
what we've learned is that anytime my body goes WHOA,
that's not okay, I'm probably gonna love it. So don't
worry about spark you time set up A time scheduling
doesn't work for everybody. Some people have the kind of
brain that like if something isn't that stresses me, they
(15:31):
just shut down.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, Like I'm like if I know that it's coming
tonight at eight pm, like I'm out. I got a
little bit of a cough.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So my first question, there's two different ways that that
could be happening, and one could be just that you
have the kind of brain that when you feel like
it's expected or obligatory, you have like this persistent demand
for autonomy, and you're just like, because you told me,
I have to no, Like, if it weren't on the calendar,
I might be interested.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Mom's tired, you know, no matter, I need one more
thing on my list. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So that brings up the other part, which is, okay,
so it's one more thing on your list, But do
you like the sex available in your relationship? Because if
it's on your calendar at eight o'clock tonight, and what
you see on your calendar is, ugh, it's such a project.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
No, it's great, I love it, but great, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
If you are if you like the sex it's available
in your relationship, you are doing it. If you don't
like the sex it's available in your relationship, which is
probably a lot of other people's experiences. Please know it's
gonna sound so obvious when I say it out loud,
but please know that it is not dysfunctional not to
want sex. You do not like. You are not you
(16:51):
do not have a desire problem. If you don't like
the sex and don't want sex, you don't like you
have a pleasure problem. So the question is what kind
of sex is worth wanting? What kind of sex is
worth cordoning off the time and energy that is definitely
required in order for you to see it on your
(17:15):
calendar and not go.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Ugh, yeah, Emily, you're fascinating, you really are.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Can I just say that the other side of it,
where like you like the sex, you know that you
would have a good time. I would say, think about
it the same way you think about maybe like working
out or eating a giant mountain of vegetables. Love is
have you never had the experience where like I know
that if I just put on my shoes and went
(17:42):
out the door, I would be so glad I did that.
I know I would have a good time.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's like my rum this morning. Did I want to run?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
No?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
But did I do it? Yes? And do I feel
like were you glad? Yeah? Great? Okay, good. That's a
great way to think of it. That's a really good
way to switch it. Like if you like them.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, the people who are like I hate to exercise,
that's not a useful metaphor. So maybe like going to parties.
You know, you say yes, it's your best friend and
a party, of course, yes, and then the date approaches
and you're like, I'm gonna have to find childcare. Yeah,
it gonna be so tired, it's gonna be traffic. Do
I really want to put on hard pants and the week?
(18:23):
But you show up because it's a party and your
best friend, and if you have a good time at
the party, you're doing it right.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You You are great? Sum up for me? Last question,
what is your definition of intimacy?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
For me, it's about daring to allow another person to
see and feel the parts of me that I feel
really belong in who I am. But there are a
lot of people who if I showed them those parts
of me, whether it's emotional or intellectual or physical, they
(19:00):
would not agree with me that those parts are good.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Great, I love it, Emily, tell us where, tell our
listeners where they can find you, and all the things
you've got going on.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Oh, mostly it's about the books. Come as you Are
is the first one. That's the one that's about basically
women's sexuality come together as the one for folks in
long term sexual relationships. And if you are listening to
this and being like I don't, I can't even get
five hours of sleep A night. Burnout is a book
I co wrote with my twin that's about people who've
(19:32):
been trained to believe that they are pretty happy, calm, generous,
and unfailingly attentive to the needs of others, but they
cannot cannot get anyone to care for their needs as
much as they care for others.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I love it. Emily, Thank you so much for coming
on my pleasure.
Host
Jana Kramer
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