December 26, 2024 • 41 mins
Co-parenting is tough, and anyone doing knows it’s not always 50/50. Jana and Allan are talking to journalist and author of “The 50/50 Solution” Emma Johnson to try and find the best strategy for raising kids with an ex.
Emma shares some incredible tips for finding balance between the two households, and Jana opens up about some of the struggles she’s faced with co-parenting her two older kids.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
All Right, So we haven't been able to really recap
Thanksgiving ish. We we did a Thanksgiving episode in Michigan
when we were traveling, but I feel like we really
can't debrief it when we're in the house of the
person that we want to debrief. No, definitely not that
makes sense.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Why I mean, you can be rude? What's I means
you can be rude?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I'm joking?
Speaker 4 (00:34):
You definitely can't debrief Thanksgiving in the house of your parents.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Would you like to debrief anything from that time?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I have a harrowing memory in my mind.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Okay, let's hear it.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
You know exactly what it is. Now.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Your dad's really your dad's great, right, and every morning
he made me coffee, and he made me different types
of coffee.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
But with my dad, though, will just say this, you
just ask for a plane coffee, but my dad cannot
do He doesn't.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
That does what he wants to give you?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yes, he doesn't it if Dad, I just want Dad,
I just want a plane coffee. And then it's like
he just wants a plane coffee. Stop giving him. Bailey's
in the coffee.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
That was fine.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
You don't drink Bailey's.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I don't drink any sort of liqueurs.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Or But I'm like, why does he feel like he
has I'm like, just give him the plane coffee that
he requested.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
But it tries to be it tries to be accommedy
and the respectable, which is which is.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Great, but.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Noise piss out of me when not the not the hospital,
hospitiality whatever part. But it's the part where it's I'm
asking you what, You're asking me what I want and
then you're not giving me what I want. Like that
part I don't understand.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
I can see what he's coming from because he obviously
likes it, but that's not what I like.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
But he wants me to like he wants me to
try it.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
No. But this the straw that broke the Scottish camel's
back was when the both of us were sat at
the table and I've got my coffee. He's comes to
the table with his coffee. I think you were upstairs. No,
you were there.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Actually I was there. I witnessed it. I sat there
and I'm like, is he and this is this is
my thought process, Is he actually doing that? And then
I looked at you, and the look you gave my
father was hilarious.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
Okay, to clear this up, he stirred, stirred, stirred his
coffee with a cheese string, animalistic and not acceptable.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Well, we know, in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
We know you don't love.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Two.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
On top of that, it was one of those moments
where it's like I'm going to slam the table and
say this is unacceptable.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
I can't even remember how I dealt with it.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
You said, are you stirring cheese?
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Are you actually stirring a coffee with a cheese stick
and then eating the cheese stick? And he said yeah, yeah,
and then he talked with his mouthful of cheese and coffee.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
When are we leaving? How many days a week?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
We left early?
Speaker 4 (03:24):
No, we did, but not because of that, because Jesson
wasn't feeling well and we decided it was better to
fly on a day that it was snowing in one day,
is that it reached the above zero degrees?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Maybe m m. But it was good. Your friends are.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
It was good to see everyone, your grandparents and your
parents and and your mates. Your mates are brilliant, and
the husbands are are great. That's so funny.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, I have great friends that I've had since middle school.
Some have a few of them have been since high school,
but the core have been since middle school, and it's
always great to see them. It's really fun. I think
I just I have our My dad and I have
had such a weird relationship for so many years because
(04:13):
I disliked him for so many years. And now that
we have a better relationship, and you know, I've staying
at his house and I love his new wife and
things are great. It's just I have that my dad
just can't sit in silence, and I have a really
hard time with people that want to fill silence with
(04:34):
just small talk.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
It doesn't see as a lot. So he's trying to
extract that. He's trying to get to know, like, Okay,
what I've been up doing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But do you know what I love about my mom's
side of the family is that they don't ask me
once what movie I'm about to do, what show I'm
about to do. They asked me nothing, And I love that.
I don't want to talk about work. I don't want
to talk about my childhood friend from sixth grade that
he asked about constantly that I'm no longer friends with
or you know what I mean, Like the house, I'm like,
(05:03):
I don't know, Dad, I ha's sixth grade. Like it's
like he's stuck in this like time warp of when
he left the house almost and it's like I I
have somewhat of you know I again, I love my dad.
Now we're great, but there is this I feel like
he's trying to make up for lost time, and so
I try to have patience with that. But at the
(05:24):
same time, I cannot stand when someone just makes small
talk for small talk and can't sit in silence and
can't be comfortable in that silence. And then there's my
dad who is just saying things to say is I'm like, Dad,
I need you to take a breath within this, like
take a breath. And then I feel bad for.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Them saying it's about that some things it's okay, it's
set in silence.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I did say that, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Unacceptable.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
I know.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
He gives me the look like Janna, and I'm like,
I'm sorry, I just have to say it, because if not,
he talks to your he talks to people's ears off.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
I don't I don't mind I don't mind, because.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
He needs to breathe, he needs to be like. I
want him to feel settled that he doesn't have to
speak twenty four to seven. It's okay to sit in silence,
but that's not who he has.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Laura will sit in silence.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Just get a bit more self aware on this and
recognize reads the room a bit better than what your
dad does. But that's just two he is. He likes
to talk about stuff. And granted a lot of this
stuff is fine because we have quite a bit in
common in terms of cars and stuff with them. Yeah,
so therefore I don't mind a conversation m hmm. But
I can I can see you getting to the point
(06:35):
where you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have to
step in here.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And it to I just want him to be able to,
like to take a breath and be like, we can
sit and watch a show with him not asking twenty
five questions and then have his weird accents. Oh last
one we were in Scotland. I was like, can you
can you actually and we're gonna go to school, lind
(07:00):
And finally his wife is like, Martin, that's annoying, and
I'm like thank you. Like, I'm like, you don't have
to say Scotland every time you say Scotland. It's Scotland, Dad,
just say Scotland. You don't have to say Scotland every
time you say Scotland.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
Just please stop.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And then I'm like, Okay, I feel myself being really
frustrated and annoyed with him, So I'm gonna walk upstairs
because I'm probably going to and I don't want to
be rude. That's the thing. I don't want to be rude.
I don't want to be snippy. I don't want to
I just just be cool. But it's just the I
don't think he's very aware.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
At times he's not. He's not, but we love them,
we do, and he's.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Great and he's he's very hospitable and very very friendly,
and yes, he wants to please you, Bibe, I want to.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I's you know, he's like a It's like a when
when it's like you're in the water and you feel
a shark just like circling you. Ready, it's like what
do you want to say that? Like it's like just.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
What's that movie Adam? But he just appeals.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, he's mister Deeds. My dad is one thousand percent
mister deeds. But he doesn't give you much. It's like, Dad,
just sit down, you're okay, We're okay, our relationship is great.
Now I'm not gonna write about you in my next book.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
We're okay, Like we're good.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Sit down, take a breath, breathe, and I don't want
to talk about work when we're all just chilling. That's all.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, but it was good. We got to exercise and
we got to see all your family.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
And I pulled my back out again. Yeah, we do
have a date night for our year anniversary of meeting.
He's and I'll just say it one same. My dad's great.
He's so good with the kids. I love his wife
all the things. But my husband doesn't like Baillies and
his coffee. Stopped giving him Bailey's and.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
His coffee for me. Billy's is a women's drink as well.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
What web, Sorry, I know our guest is here, but
I have one more thing. There was something about, oh,
we were saying, you know, we don't Alan doesn't have
dairy and my times that he asked if you want something,
and I'm like, Dad, it has dairy in it. It
was something like, but he wasn't a whole milkome my
dad dairy stop. I know, good old family time, just
(09:14):
in time for Christmas. Oh well, we in speaking of
family time, we have a guest, Emma Johnson. She's a
journalist author. She has a book out called The fifty
to fifty Solution, The surprisingly simple choice that makes moms, dads,
and kids happier and healthy after a split, something we
know nothing about. So let's take a break and get
(09:37):
our guest on.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Hie me.
Speaker 6 (09:52):
Nice to meet you. Guys, Nice to meet you too.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Thank you so much for coming on. You know, this
is a very hot we'll just jump right into it
because this is a hot topic that we have been
discussing the last few episodes before this. We are both
in we're both divorced, have co parenting situations. I know
(10:16):
you have your book, The fifty to fifty Solution, and
at first it was like a well, first of all,
I want to get into it. It is yours back
by like your own personal or is it studies or
what was the kind of the basis for this research
and your findings of it?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, I mean, so everything that I advocate for is
always rooted in science. What is really best for kids,
for sure, but also for moms, for dads, and even
gender equality overall the economy. We can get into all
of that, but I can share you with you my
own personal journey. I got divorced, always for I wasn't
going to get divorced, and what do you know, got divorced.
(10:57):
And I will share this detail about my story, which
I don't talk about a lot, but my now ex husband,
he preceding the doors, he had a major brain trauma,
So that was an unusual circumstances that most families certainly
don't have to deal with, though I will say that
a lot of families and I think your family might
be one of these. There's extreme circumstances. People are human
(11:18):
and they go through very tough times. They go through
addiction and mental health crises and all these things that
I think we need to extend a lot of compassion
and care for in the spirit of all of our
best interests. But my journey was I got through this
divorce and it was to me and my kids were babies.
My son was I was pregnant with him when we
got divorced, and my daughter was too. They're teeny weeny.
(11:39):
I was then a new mom right, and Mommy want
to be with my babies all the time and going
through this trauma, as all divorces are. But I really
bought into the whole idea that the kids should do
with me. I was the mom I would know. I
bought into this idea that there's a you know, primary
home is better for kids. You know, they should have
one home base. I didn't know anybody that did fifty
(12:02):
to fifty. It was not even on the menu items
of things that people could do. This was fifteen years ago,
and thankfully, the world is a much different place. People
weren't even having these conversations very opten at all. So
that was just a given for me that I was
going to have the kids and they would visit their dad.
And at the time, he paid child support for a
(12:22):
short time, and then his life circumstances made that not possible,
and I knew that wasn't his fault. But thankfully he's
been able to really have a very successful story. He's
remarried to a great person. And as time went on,
I was like, Okay, I thought this was this great
win for me that I had the kids with me
all the time. But then I'm like, all other moms
(12:43):
are completely overwhelmed. I'm so resentful that they are not
with him. He wasn't super reliable about showing up, and
I was like, how is it a win for me
and all moms to have our kids all the time?
And then we complained that we're overwhelmed and stressed out
and this impacted my ability to work, can earn and
all do the things like go to the gym, go
out date, all the things and the Meanwhile, I had
(13:06):
started a mom blog, a single mom blog into those
in twelve and so I was sort of just kind
of like, work through my ideas through my writing, put
this out into the world, and it's kind of took off,
and my working through really resonated with a lot of people,
and I started getting tons of feedback and started just
really formulating my own ideas but also researching this issue
(13:27):
and over the last thirty years and certainly accelerating now
there's so much social science. People are so interested in
what is best for kids. But then this again approborates
out to all parts of the family in our communities
really and it's really you can't argue with it. Fifty
to fifty is absolutely the best situation for the vast
(13:48):
majority of families, and there's always going to be exceptions
to that, and there might be temporary exceptions and certain
you know, in a family that is focused on fifty
to fifty, but it really comes down to equal parenting time.
But it's even that fifty to fifty number, and the
kids and all the members of the family knowing that
it's fifty to fifty is very impactful. And I was
(14:09):
I'm so happy that you guys are talking about this
because it's such an important topic. In fact, tens of
millions of people in this country alone.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
So what point did you switch to fifty to fifty then?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, Well, as my kids say, I like, stabilize more.
Speaker 6 (14:26):
We just kind of just between the two.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Of us kind of worked out a schedule that was
more and more equitable. And then because o're sixteen and
fourteen now and about five years ago, just between the
two of us, we greed, we're so close to fifty
to fifty, and it was like this convoluted thing with
like the weekend.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's like, no matter how great your relationship I mentioning
you guys can imagine it can relate but that going
back and forth is always annoying for the kids, right,
and the more like two days here, one days there,
it ends up being so many more back and forth.
Then if you just do like on our family we
do every Friday, the kids switch, like they go to
(15:05):
school on Friday, let's say, from my house, and then
after school they.
Speaker 6 (15:08):
Go to their dad's house.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Right, So that's you know, for switches a month. Whereas
if you do like the ever of the weekend Wednesday
evening dinner. I did the math one time, it's like
sixteen back and forth. And the back and forths are
always the most annoying for the kids. If there's tension
between the two of you, that's that many more times
you have to see the other parent. So there's just
(15:31):
a practical ease of it too. But yeah, so we
do that and the kids it's super interesting because of
course we have like variation, things come up, there's switches,
and my kids, my son especially, he's like, okay, well,
when are we going to make it up? When is
it going to be fifty to fifty Because here's a
big part of it, him knowing that his dad is
(15:51):
in it fifty percent of the time. Let's take my
family out of it. What the social scientists have found,
in particular, if you're interested, doctor William Fabricius at Arizona
State University. He's a real leader in this and he
has a wonderful way of talking about these issues in
a really accessible way. And when he told me, he says,
you know, when those what his research found, it's like
when those kids have fifty to fifty, the.
Speaker 6 (16:14):
First of all, the kids fair better the closer.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And closer that that schedul jewel gets to fifty to fifty.
But what it's doing, it's not so much the hours.
I mean you guys know, like the kids at their
your house, Like are they are you spending like all
this personal, one on one frontal lobe development time with
them now? Like they're at their events and they're at
their friend's house, they're in their room on their things.
Like it's not about the number of hours. But when
(16:36):
it's we tell those kids it's half your dad's house,
half your mom's house, it communicates those kids that their
dads are in it to win it and that the
dad is not going to slip out of their lives,
because that is an incredible risk. When we marginalize dads
in their kids' lives. When parents split up and the
courts their co parent, our whole society communicates to men
(16:59):
overall that they don't matter in kids' lives, that they're expendable,
that they only really matter, you know, twenty percent, thirty
percent of the time.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
But when we say no, we know.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
We know intuitively as humans, we know in our personal family,
we know the social scientists decades and hundreds of studies
show that men are just as important to child bearing
as women, dads and moms, and like biologically comically even
in utero to babies. When we acknowledge that with a
simple fifty to fifty schedule that is so elegant and easy,
(17:30):
everybody knows then that that dad is more likely to
stick around, and they are. They're statistically they are most
more likely to stick around and be actively engaged, and
the benefits of that are just exponential.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
So when you went to fifty fifty, did your ex
husband stop paying maintenance because it's a fifty to fifty split.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
No, we only did that for like a year and
then it was there was none of that. And that's
very specific to my family that we just agree that
he was not able to do that. And I don't
believe in maintenance anymore actually at all. And I know
I listened to your recent podcast with your the three
of you and your acts. Your family is so interesting
(18:12):
because you have such a successful co parenting relationship, it's
also unequal and you're and you're paying him, And I mean,
I don't know in my research, in my like all
these years I've been working in this space, like child support.
It's certainly alimenty, but child support always creates conflict and
bad feelings. And I like to say, hell, have no
(18:33):
fury like a woman paying child support. I mean, women
are not having it. And it's so interesting that you
guys struggle with that. Yeah, it's super.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
It's super interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And if I were to wave my magic wand you know,
every single family law case, whether you go through the courts,
which ninety eight percent people do not, or you just
work out between the two of you, maybe you have
a lawyer or therapist involved. But the presumption and the
cultural norm would be fifty fifty. Everybody pays their own
bills like an adult.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
That'd be nice. But the problem, though, I think, is
though with women who you know a lot of women
have reached out to me. They you know, especially whether
it's from an abusive relationship or their husband's cheating. But
they were the stay at home mom. They don't have
the ability to be able to go and get something
(19:24):
on their own. And that's the piece where you know,
they would need that support of a child support and
I that's where it's it's hard for me because it's like, Okay, well,
clearly my ex needs the support to be able to
house our kids in a house and that's where most
of my child support money goes. But also yes, that's
(19:48):
where the anger is too, because I'm like, you're a man,
figure it out, like I you know, I've I paid
you alimony on top of this, Like you know, that's
a that's that is where they're you know, resentbent and
I have them seventy percent of the time. So I
don't know how me paying the highest amount of child
support in Tennessee is fair given the time and the
reason too for our divorce, which again I know that
(20:09):
that's it's a no fault state whatever, but I still
just like that that piece is a and and you know,
and he says and just like he said in the
podcast where he was he hopes one day to not
take it. I just don't ever see that day coming.
And I think that's where I just am like, yeah,
I don't ever see that day coming. I don't believe
(20:31):
I know, you know, why would I start to believe him? Now?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, I mean I don't.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I don't know if any case I've ever heard of
in the UK since I arrived in America where a
woman pays a man.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I mean, I feel like it's a it's more that.
I mean, you know, I don't I've heard more people
or more cases of a woman paying, but I still
also have heard many more of those men not taking
them right well increasingly.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Actually, child support is going out of favor in general.
There's a really this is coming from state data. But
I mean the whole thing is so messy. I mean
it was child support was established well, I mean there's
always been some kind of form of it, child support,
you know, to basically make when women had no economic power.
(21:24):
Being back you know, thousands of years when women couldn't
hold earning positions in societies. I mean even going back
we can get our braids around fifty years ago or
even when my mom was a single mom you know,
forty years ago, thirty years ago, and you know, there
was a sense of that, but that's not the case anymore.
(21:45):
I think forty percent of heterosexual married couples women on
the breadwinners. There is gender equality in the public space now.
Women have been the majority in college campuses and college
graduates since nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
Women have economic power or no.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
And if they're choosing to off ramp to stay home,
that is a choice and it's harsh, but there are
consequences to that choice. The thing is is when it
becomes obligatory, there's resentment. But I hear increasingly cases where
you know, people are when when you take the sports
out of it and you take all the stupid, dated,
(22:23):
not relevant laws out of it, it gives people space
to be decent, brings out their best selves. I hear
anecdotally cases of families where it's like, yeah, maybe she
did or him off ramped and stayed home, or maybe
there was a disabled kid or disabled you know, old
parent that was being cared for, and they're like, okay,
I see it, I have a well I have extra
(22:44):
now you know, I'll float the boat for you for
a year until you get on your feet. You know,
people just are being kind with each other in a
very practical way. But when we are like, okay, you
have to pay me thirty two hundred dollars a month,
until like, you know, I get well, that's just the
only reason he gets thirteen hundred dollars a month is
because you have thirty two hundred dollars a month, and
(23:05):
the court can see that if you were a poorer family,
those numbers would be totally different. And it's very interesting
that the poorer families and what I'm seeing is they
do better. So, for example, there's huge portions of the
population that are eligible to receive child support through the
state and don't do not pursue it, and these are
(23:25):
mostly poor women. And the faith that have an art like,
they have conferences to figure out how to fix this problem.
They see it as a problem that more moms are
not applying for child support. And when they survey these moms,
these poor moms who are probably in a better position
to get you know, would benefit from these few hundred
dollars a month. The reasons that they give are just
(23:46):
so beautiful. They say things like, well, the dad has
the kids part of the time, so why should he
have to pay? Or they say he's already These are
what the they held the government in a survey to
those states that they say, he's already paying as much
as he can. I don't want the government to force
him to pay. They see the men struggling to pay
(24:08):
afford it, and they see the value of the men
taking care of the kids. So why would they get
the government involved in this unfair thing? And it just
would mess up their call parenting and drive the men away.
And they see that, and these are the poor women.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
There's a piece of me that's like all right, like
I asked them the other episode, you know, about fifty
to fifty. And I think there's a piece of me
that still is frustrated because when we got divorced, I
had laid it out and I wrote about this in
the book, but not as harsh as I think I'm
about to say it, but but here I go. Anyways, Uh,
when I had laid out because he was gonna he
(24:57):
signed a post up when we got divorced and he
said he was going to fight it, which you know,
just was so upsetting to me because he knew the
consequences if he cheated again. So you know, sorry, but
those were the consequences, and you signed a post nup,
but my lawyers said post ups don't hold up in
court as well as prenups. So you know, this is
(25:17):
how much it's going to be to fight it. This
is what he could end up with. So I start
to spiral because I'm a child of a divorce family.
I grew up with no money. I fought for everything
I've ever earned. I worked my ass off to get
where I'm at, and you know, throughout our marriage, all
he did was take, take, take in our marriage, so
money wise, and they would blame me for him not
(25:37):
having a job. So when I sat down and kind
of google excelled sheeted things, you know, I put numbers
that I thought were a fair amount, so the things
that the Instagram adds that he was in the podcasts
that we were doing the book, and then I put
another you know, that was the middle column. Then there
was an unfair column on the right, but I put
(25:58):
it there, which was still going to be less than half,
but it was close to half. And then there was
the left column, which I thought was the most fair.
It was split down the middle with what he brought
in the earnings, and that's when he said, okay, fifty
to fifty sixty forty seventy thirty. So I essentially paid
more alimony to have seventy thirty because he knew my
(26:20):
kids were our kids were. The was my what I
didn't want to lose, so that I would pay more
to keep the kids, and that's what I did. So
but now I'm okay, I paid more for alimony, and
now I paid the hymn child support. And there's a
piece of me where it's like that resentment comes in
where it's like, well, I paid for that time, but
(26:41):
that pisses me off. And then now you're getting high
amount of child support and I have them seventy percent
of time. So now I'm like, here, fine, you want
fifty to fifty, take fifty to fifty. And but then
this is my side piece that I'm sorry, I'm going
off on a total tangent.
Speaker 6 (26:54):
I want to hear it all.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I there's a piece of control that I don't want
to lose because I don't like what goes on in
that house. I don't like the fact they play video
games every night. I don't like the fact of the
foods they eat, so It's like there's I can control
more in my house. And I know that's not a
good thing to say, but that's just my truth with it.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
Yeah, And I feel like totally normal that.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
The kids have technology here. I don't like them watching tea.
I don't like any of it. I don't let them.
Don't allow it here. Use your mind, you be creative, color.
You know, there's let's play games. They just go most
of the time. Would you do a day? Isn't it?
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Video games? I'm like, m like, it's like a dagger.
I'm like, why would I want to give him fifty
to fifty of and then then have their little brains
doing that.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I totally I I personally, I think that is the
most normal human feelings. I think it's totally normal. And
I personally struggle with that. I see moms struggle with
all that all the time. There's like so many things
that play like well, one just the human human condition,
like we want to control, right, we love our kids.
(28:01):
There's the parenting instinct that kicks in. And gender plays
a huge role. I mean since we were born, everything
around us told women that we were moms. I mean
that was it. Like we have been conditioned since we
were born to think that we are the better parent.
Speaker 6 (28:20):
And there's an equal messaging.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Well, I think there's very also strong but also confusing
messages to dad because on one hand we're like, no,
we want to be dads, but you should be the breadwinner.
But you shouldn't want to be the breadwinner. You should
be feminists and can see. So there's a lot of
there's a lot of confusion in this moment, and I
think we need to extend each other and ourselves a
lot of grace about how confusing these messages are. But
(28:43):
I'll tell you what I tell myself when I struggle
with those very similar resentments about like oh I want
the control or I think I'm the better. So again
going back to social science, we know. I mean it
is like there's no there's really never ever seen a
study and I follow all this stuff.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
I mean, this is what I do.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
A study that suggests or as any findings that so
that fifty to fifty is bad or has any negative downside,
And the way I think about it frame it up
in my mind, it's when I get frustrated with my
co parent and I'm like, that's not how I want it.
Speaker 6 (29:25):
Done or this is I think it gets be better.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
It is a basic human right for parents the parent
their children. That is a basic rights that parents have.
And there's a basic human rights for children to be
parented by their parents, and we see increasingly a societal
acceptance of that. For example, as a society, we believe
(29:49):
that children should not be separated from their parents at borders, right.
We believe that children should be with their parents, and
we believe and there's such a human craving to be
connected to our fai it's of origin. I mean, look
at the popularity of like ancestry, dot com and twenty
three dot me. I mean, these are bazillion dollar industries
because people are so compelled to know who they are
(30:10):
connected to. And again going back to the importance of
moms and dads equally, it is not my decision and
it is not down your decision to decide if your
kid's other parent is a good parent orner. That is
their dad, that is their dad, and oh man, it
(30:32):
is so hard to accept that some days. But we
are giving them such a gift to just have that
experience and decide for themselves, and that we're planting the
seeds and foundations today when they're I think your kids
are a lot younger than mine, but today they we
are planting the seeds for them to connect and to
make that connection with their dad. It's like, yeah, they
(30:54):
should be on video games and maybe they should have
more like organic food or whatever your beef is, which
is legit, that's real. But at the same time, we're
planning the seats for them. They have that connection and
let's get real. Your dad, your kids dad is a
great dad, right, Like they have two great men parent
father figures in their lives. Like right, this is wonderful.
(31:15):
You have got to do everything you can to nurture that,
not marginalize that. And it's like, yep, they watched too
many crappy movies, they need too much takeout. But now
they are that we are solidifying that relationship and communicating
them that their dad is just as important and men
are just as important and fathers are just as important.
And that is going to reverberate into your folk for
(31:38):
generations and generations and they can grow up and decide
what kind of parents they want to be and if
too much video games would like ruin their lives or not.
But that's not really your decision to make.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, I mean, because it is something where I've noticed
where you know, their question is always like, you know,
when is daddy Day? Or you know, why do we
have more mammy days and daddy days? And it's you know,
it's it's harder to answer that question now because I
want my babies. Like, but I hear what you're saying.
I do hear that.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
What about you, Ben, I mean, situations are really different.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
You pay money to your ex and you pay to
look after the kids seventy percent of the time.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
I pay.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
My ex wife money, but since I split with us,
she's had Troy most of the time because of at
that point in time, I traveled a lot. Therefore, a
fifty split would never have even a seventy thirty split
would never have worked because I was I was not
(32:42):
around for chunks of chunks of time due to my
due to my work, and then I moved away to Aberdeen,
which was seventy hours away, so I could never I've
never been in a place where I've been able to
even try and have fifty fifty or even close to it,
which is why I mean, no one likes to pay
people money every month and I've done it for years.
(33:05):
But in all fairness to my ex, she's always had
Troy most of the time. So it's a completely different
scenario where she's, yes, she gets money, but she's taken
the responsibility of eighty percent back then.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
But even it's now even more than.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
That because because I'm over here, she's always she's always
had them, So though there's been struggles to pay the money,
and nobody likes to pay money that deep down, I'm like, Okay,
she's she's got them most of the time, but it's opposite. Yeah,
you're paying money.
Speaker 6 (33:38):
That's unusual. Yeah, that's unusual.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Yeah, So I understand your like any any anyone in
this world when they listen to it, is like, how
does that? How can that even make sense? It just doesn't.
It's like taught us to your brain and bank account.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Everyone, Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
And I mean, things are changing, and honestly, you know
what I think is changing, because here's the other thing
that I like to mention in my you know, quest
to change everybody's hearts and minds on this topic.
Speaker 6 (34:11):
The world is changing so quickly.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Like I've been working on this issue for a good
ten years, and it is remarkable to me how quickly
like the snowball is happening. Like now we have six
states in the United States that have presumptions of fifty
to fifty parenting. So when you split up, if you
were to go to court, at the court would be
like it's it's fifty to fifty unless there's and there's
(34:33):
like a dozen.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Yeah, And in Nashville they are very much like it
is very much they want dads. I mean, it is
hard for women to even get sixty forty in Tennessee.
So because I have had a few friends by and
now I'm like, girls, take the sixty forty, you know,
or take the fifty. It's like it's it's because I
get it. I get the emotional it's it's hard, it's
a lot, you know. It's like I'm always the parent
(34:55):
that's on them, and it's like it's it's as much
as I love the time, I I get the exhaustion
of it too.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
But sixty forty is I mean, let's think about that.
That's only another two nights a month. But it's only
two nights. It's not making a sizable difference in your
relationship with your kids. But what it does is solidify
you as a primary parent.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Yeah, and that's very important. You know.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I remember this one guy, I know, he they were
young parents and they weren't married, but they were you know,
split up with the kid as a baby, and they
were doing a good job. You know, they were making
a work and they had a lot of resources, but
they were doing it. And they were doing a good
job called parenting, like in a probably clumsy way, but
they were in it to win it. And then all
of a sudden she started just taking them to court
and going for all the primary care and there's some
(35:42):
false allegations and the money and childs and it didn't
make any sense. And he said, after one court appearance
he took her so he's like, what.
Speaker 6 (35:49):
Are you doing?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
This isn't make any sense at all, and she goes,
can you She's like, yeah, but think about how bad
it looks to everybody if I'm not the primary parent.
Speaker 6 (36:01):
And that's real, and I hear her.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
There is a lot of societal pressure from your family friends,
depending on what community you live in. And you live
in a community where fifty to fifty is the norm
and there's acceptance of that, but that's not true in
a lot of especially oral communities in this country, when
you are lindad is a bad mom if you are
sharing parenting time. That said that said, that is quickly changing,
(36:24):
and I feel very I am a thousand percent convinced
that our kids, you know, your kids, My kids are
going to grow up and they're statistically not going to
have They're not going to stay with their husband or
wife for the rest.
Speaker 6 (36:36):
Of their lives.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Right, They're going to statistically grow up in some blended,
convoluted family and they're all going to do fifty to fifty.
They are absolutely going to do fifty to fifty. That
is exactly where all the world is moving. And they
will judge us. They will judge us.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Well, what is a minus? You know us going to
a fifty five? What is some tools or tips that
you'd give me that are also in your book.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Well, a lot of this is just like internal work,
like just accepting that nobody is the better parent. I'm
not sure when this is been published, but it's right
before in the middle holidays, and I've been doing a
lot of media on those, like tips for co parenting
during the holidays, and it is really tough to accept
that both households are equal. So even if one parent
(37:28):
has like let's say, a really big family with all
these fun traditions and weeks of really fun holiday stuff,
and maybe the other parent doesn't have any family in
town or really just limited you know, traditions, or maybe
they're making up traditions for first time, that does not
make one family more important than the other in terms
of the time, and that could be hard. You know,
the holidays are so loaded and they're so fraud and
(37:51):
we all come to it with our expectations and our own.
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Hopes for it.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
But that's it's really our opportunity to like exercise our
best all on steroids and again, like again looking at
through the holiday lens. Just I mean, I can't emphasize
enough like extending your co parent grace if you've been
in a relationship with them, we know all their button issues.
Speaker 6 (38:15):
You know how to push their.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Buttons and piss them off and get under their skin.
And as tempting as it can be, like restrain yourself right,
and everyone's struggling.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
This is all new.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
We're like reinventing history and family and doing all these
crazy things without models. You know, I'm a child divorce
your child of wars. We're figuring this out as we go,
and I think it's just like being forgiving and gracious
to each other.
Speaker 6 (38:40):
It goes a really, really long way.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, for sure, Where can our listeners find you.
Speaker 6 (38:47):
Well relevant to this?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
My book is The Fifty to Fifty Solution, and of
course it's on Amazon. My website attached that is Mom's
for Shared Parenting dot org, for sure Parenting dot org,
and all the social media. My instagram is thought Emma Johnson,
that'd probably be a good one.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Love it well. Thank you so much for coming on
and yeah, I've got some thinking to do.
Speaker 6 (39:16):
Thank you for no thank you guys. I really appreciate
you tackling this. I know it's heavy.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, it's it's hard. It's so hard, but I at
the end of the day, I always want what's best
for the kids. So you know, if the kids were
also wanting more time, I mean that's and what I
do like about our relationship is you know the fact
that like I'm going away for a movie in January,
it's like, hey, I need you to watch the kids
for twelve days, and so it's like we have such
a good like he does help me when you know,
(39:43):
I go away for work and vice versa. But I
think the money piece will always be the struggle for sure.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
So yeah, it's tough because like when he feels broke,
of course that money is super helpful, but he resents
taking it too, especially as a man.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
I don't think so he says he does, but I don't. Mike,
if you're listening, you both know, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
But if you had, if you had a lower income,
it would be a non issue because it just there
wouldn't be money on the table, right, And it's like
then the morality of it would be not even upper discussion.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, but again because we talked about the last time
where he's like, you think I like it, and I'm like,
I will always think you like taking it until you
stop taking it, like, because it's just what I've believed
in our marriage because he was just didn't respect the money.
So that's where it's but that's a piece of our past.
So anyways, uh so we'll see maybe one day, you know,
(40:45):
when he's going to stop taking it. When they're seventeen, Well.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I wonder if he gets into a relationship with somebody
that has money, then what then? I don't think the
state usually factors.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
That doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter at all.
Speaker 6 (41:01):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
But then then his linement, I don't need it, I
need it that that isn't relevant anymore because she would
have the money.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
I know.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yeah, we'll see to be determined, Emma. I'll keep you posted,
all right. But thank you so much for coming on. Everyone,
go get the fifty to fifty solution, the surprisingly simple
choice that makes moms, dads, and kids happier and healthy
after a split. Thank you so much, Emma, Thank you guys.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Bye by
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
All Right, So we haven't been able to really recap
Thanksgiving ish. We we did a Thanksgiving episode in Michigan
when we were traveling, but I feel like we really
can't debrief it when we're in the house of the
person that we want to debrief. No, definitely not that
makes sense.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Why I mean, you can be rude? What's I means
you can be rude?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I'm joking?
Speaker 4 (00:34):
You definitely can't debrief Thanksgiving in the house of your parents.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Would you like to debrief anything from that time?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I have a harrowing memory in my mind.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Okay, let's hear it.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
You know exactly what it is. Now.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Your dad's really your dad's great, right, and every morning
he made me coffee, and he made me different types
of coffee.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
But with my dad, though, will just say this, you
just ask for a plane coffee, but my dad cannot
do He doesn't.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
That does what he wants to give you?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yes, he doesn't it if Dad, I just want Dad,
I just want a plane coffee. And then it's like
he just wants a plane coffee. Stop giving him. Bailey's
in the coffee.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
That was fine.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
You don't drink Bailey's.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I don't drink any sort of liqueurs.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Or But I'm like, why does he feel like he
has I'm like, just give him the plane coffee that
he requested.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
But it tries to be it tries to be accommedy
and the respectable, which is which is.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Great, but.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Noise piss out of me when not the not the hospital,
hospitiality whatever part. But it's the part where it's I'm
asking you what, You're asking me what I want and
then you're not giving me what I want. Like that
part I don't understand.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
I can see what he's coming from because he obviously
likes it, but that's not what I like.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
But he wants me to like he wants me to
try it.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
No. But this the straw that broke the Scottish camel's
back was when the both of us were sat at
the table and I've got my coffee. He's comes to
the table with his coffee. I think you were upstairs. No,
you were there.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Actually I was there. I witnessed it. I sat there
and I'm like, is he and this is this is
my thought process, Is he actually doing that? And then
I looked at you, and the look you gave my
father was hilarious.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
Okay, to clear this up, he stirred, stirred, stirred his
coffee with a cheese string, animalistic and not acceptable.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Well, we know, in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
We know you don't love.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Two.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
On top of that, it was one of those moments
where it's like I'm going to slam the table and
say this is unacceptable.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
I can't even remember how I dealt with it.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
You said, are you stirring cheese?
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Are you actually stirring a coffee with a cheese stick
and then eating the cheese stick? And he said yeah, yeah,
and then he talked with his mouthful of cheese and coffee.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
When are we leaving? How many days a week?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
We left early?
Speaker 4 (03:24):
No, we did, but not because of that, because Jesson
wasn't feeling well and we decided it was better to
fly on a day that it was snowing in one day,
is that it reached the above zero degrees?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Maybe m m. But it was good. Your friends are.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
It was good to see everyone, your grandparents and your
parents and and your mates. Your mates are brilliant, and
the husbands are are great. That's so funny.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, I have great friends that I've had since middle school.
Some have a few of them have been since high school,
but the core have been since middle school, and it's
always great to see them. It's really fun. I think
I just I have our My dad and I have
had such a weird relationship for so many years because
(04:13):
I disliked him for so many years. And now that
we have a better relationship, and you know, I've staying
at his house and I love his new wife and
things are great. It's just I have that my dad
just can't sit in silence, and I have a really
hard time with people that want to fill silence with
(04:34):
just small talk.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
It doesn't see as a lot. So he's trying to
extract that. He's trying to get to know, like, Okay,
what I've been up doing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But do you know what I love about my mom's
side of the family is that they don't ask me
once what movie I'm about to do, what show I'm
about to do. They asked me nothing, And I love that.
I don't want to talk about work. I don't want
to talk about my childhood friend from sixth grade that
he asked about constantly that I'm no longer friends with
or you know what I mean, Like the house, I'm like,
(05:03):
I don't know, Dad, I ha's sixth grade. Like it's
like he's stuck in this like time warp of when
he left the house almost and it's like I I
have somewhat of you know I again, I love my dad.
Now we're great, but there is this I feel like
he's trying to make up for lost time, and so
I try to have patience with that. But at the
(05:24):
same time, I cannot stand when someone just makes small
talk for small talk and can't sit in silence and
can't be comfortable in that silence. And then there's my
dad who is just saying things to say is I'm like, Dad,
I need you to take a breath within this, like
take a breath. And then I feel bad for.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Them saying it's about that some things it's okay, it's
set in silence.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I did say that, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Unacceptable.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
I know.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
He gives me the look like Janna, and I'm like,
I'm sorry, I just have to say it, because if not,
he talks to your he talks to people's ears off.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
I don't I don't mind I don't mind, because.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
He needs to breathe, he needs to be like. I
want him to feel settled that he doesn't have to
speak twenty four to seven. It's okay to sit in silence,
but that's not who he has.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Laura will sit in silence.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Just get a bit more self aware on this and
recognize reads the room a bit better than what your
dad does. But that's just two he is. He likes
to talk about stuff. And granted a lot of this
stuff is fine because we have quite a bit in
common in terms of cars and stuff with them. Yeah,
so therefore I don't mind a conversation m hmm. But
I can I can see you getting to the point
(06:35):
where you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have to
step in here.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And it to I just want him to be able to,
like to take a breath and be like, we can
sit and watch a show with him not asking twenty
five questions and then have his weird accents. Oh last
one we were in Scotland. I was like, can you
can you actually and we're gonna go to school, lind
(07:00):
And finally his wife is like, Martin, that's annoying, and
I'm like thank you. Like, I'm like, you don't have
to say Scotland every time you say Scotland. It's Scotland, Dad,
just say Scotland. You don't have to say Scotland every
time you say Scotland.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
Just please stop.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And then I'm like, Okay, I feel myself being really
frustrated and annoyed with him, So I'm gonna walk upstairs
because I'm probably going to and I don't want to
be rude. That's the thing. I don't want to be rude.
I don't want to be snippy. I don't want to
I just just be cool. But it's just the I
don't think he's very aware.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
At times he's not. He's not, but we love them,
we do, and he's.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Great and he's he's very hospitable and very very friendly,
and yes, he wants to please you, Bibe, I want to.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I's you know, he's like a It's like a when
when it's like you're in the water and you feel
a shark just like circling you. Ready, it's like what
do you want to say that? Like it's like just.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
What's that movie Adam? But he just appeals.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, he's mister Deeds. My dad is one thousand percent
mister deeds. But he doesn't give you much. It's like, Dad,
just sit down, you're okay, We're okay, our relationship is great.
Now I'm not gonna write about you in my next book.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
We're okay, Like we're good.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Sit down, take a breath, breathe, and I don't want
to talk about work when we're all just chilling. That's all.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, but it was good. We got to exercise and
we got to see all your family.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
And I pulled my back out again. Yeah, we do
have a date night for our year anniversary of meeting.
He's and I'll just say it one same. My dad's great.
He's so good with the kids. I love his wife
all the things. But my husband doesn't like Baillies and
his coffee. Stopped giving him Bailey's and.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
His coffee for me. Billy's is a women's drink as well.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
What web, Sorry, I know our guest is here, but
I have one more thing. There was something about, oh,
we were saying, you know, we don't Alan doesn't have
dairy and my times that he asked if you want something,
and I'm like, Dad, it has dairy in it. It
was something like, but he wasn't a whole milkome my
dad dairy stop. I know, good old family time, just
(09:14):
in time for Christmas. Oh well, we in speaking of
family time, we have a guest, Emma Johnson. She's a
journalist author. She has a book out called The fifty
to fifty Solution, The surprisingly simple choice that makes moms, dads,
and kids happier and healthy after a split, something we
know nothing about. So let's take a break and get
(09:37):
our guest on.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Hie me.
Speaker 6 (09:52):
Nice to meet you. Guys, Nice to meet you too.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Thank you so much for coming on. You know, this
is a very hot we'll just jump right into it
because this is a hot topic that we have been
discussing the last few episodes before this. We are both
in we're both divorced, have co parenting situations. I know
(10:16):
you have your book, The fifty to fifty Solution, and
at first it was like a well, first of all,
I want to get into it. It is yours back
by like your own personal or is it studies or
what was the kind of the basis for this research
and your findings of it?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, I mean, so everything that I advocate for is
always rooted in science. What is really best for kids,
for sure, but also for moms, for dads, and even
gender equality overall the economy. We can get into all
of that, but I can share you with you my
own personal journey. I got divorced, always for I wasn't
going to get divorced, and what do you know, got divorced.
(10:57):
And I will share this detail about my story, which
I don't talk about a lot, but my now ex husband,
he preceding the doors, he had a major brain trauma,
So that was an unusual circumstances that most families certainly
don't have to deal with, though I will say that
a lot of families and I think your family might
be one of these. There's extreme circumstances. People are human
(11:18):
and they go through very tough times. They go through
addiction and mental health crises and all these things that
I think we need to extend a lot of compassion
and care for in the spirit of all of our
best interests. But my journey was I got through this
divorce and it was to me and my kids were babies.
My son was I was pregnant with him when we
got divorced, and my daughter was too. They're teeny weeny.
(11:39):
I was then a new mom right, and Mommy want
to be with my babies all the time and going
through this trauma, as all divorces are. But I really
bought into the whole idea that the kids should do
with me. I was the mom I would know. I
bought into this idea that there's a you know, primary
home is better for kids. You know, they should have
one home base. I didn't know anybody that did fifty
(12:02):
to fifty. It was not even on the menu items
of things that people could do. This was fifteen years ago,
and thankfully, the world is a much different place. People
weren't even having these conversations very opten at all. So
that was just a given for me that I was
going to have the kids and they would visit their dad.
And at the time, he paid child support for a
(12:22):
short time, and then his life circumstances made that not possible,
and I knew that wasn't his fault. But thankfully he's
been able to really have a very successful story. He's
remarried to a great person. And as time went on,
I was like, Okay, I thought this was this great
win for me that I had the kids with me
all the time. But then I'm like, all other moms
(12:43):
are completely overwhelmed. I'm so resentful that they are not
with him. He wasn't super reliable about showing up, and
I was like, how is it a win for me
and all moms to have our kids all the time?
And then we complained that we're overwhelmed and stressed out
and this impacted my ability to work, can earn and
all do the things like go to the gym, go
out date, all the things and the Meanwhile, I had
(13:06):
started a mom blog, a single mom blog into those
in twelve and so I was sort of just kind
of like, work through my ideas through my writing, put
this out into the world, and it's kind of took off,
and my working through really resonated with a lot of people,
and I started getting tons of feedback and started just
really formulating my own ideas but also researching this issue
(13:27):
and over the last thirty years and certainly accelerating now
there's so much social science. People are so interested in
what is best for kids. But then this again approborates
out to all parts of the family in our communities
really and it's really you can't argue with it. Fifty
to fifty is absolutely the best situation for the vast
(13:48):
majority of families, and there's always going to be exceptions
to that, and there might be temporary exceptions and certain
you know, in a family that is focused on fifty
to fifty, but it really comes down to equal parenting time.
But it's even that fifty to fifty number, and the
kids and all the members of the family knowing that
it's fifty to fifty is very impactful. And I was
(14:09):
I'm so happy that you guys are talking about this
because it's such an important topic. In fact, tens of
millions of people in this country alone.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
So what point did you switch to fifty to fifty then?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, Well, as my kids say, I like, stabilize more.
Speaker 6 (14:26):
We just kind of just between the two.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Of us kind of worked out a schedule that was
more and more equitable. And then because o're sixteen and
fourteen now and about five years ago, just between the
two of us, we greed, we're so close to fifty
to fifty, and it was like this convoluted thing with
like the weekend.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's like, no matter how great your relationship I mentioning
you guys can imagine it can relate but that going
back and forth is always annoying for the kids, right,
and the more like two days here, one days there,
it ends up being so many more back and forth.
Then if you just do like on our family we
do every Friday, the kids switch, like they go to
(15:05):
school on Friday, let's say, from my house, and then
after school they.
Speaker 6 (15:08):
Go to their dad's house.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Right, So that's you know, for switches a month. Whereas
if you do like the ever of the weekend Wednesday
evening dinner. I did the math one time, it's like
sixteen back and forth. And the back and forths are
always the most annoying for the kids. If there's tension
between the two of you, that's that many more times
you have to see the other parent. So there's just
(15:31):
a practical ease of it too. But yeah, so we
do that and the kids it's super interesting because of
course we have like variation, things come up, there's switches,
and my kids, my son especially, he's like, okay, well,
when are we going to make it up? When is
it going to be fifty to fifty Because here's a
big part of it, him knowing that his dad is
(15:51):
in it fifty percent of the time. Let's take my
family out of it. What the social scientists have found,
in particular, if you're interested, doctor William Fabricius at Arizona
State University. He's a real leader in this and he
has a wonderful way of talking about these issues in
a really accessible way. And when he told me, he says,
you know, when those what his research found, it's like
when those kids have fifty to fifty, the.
Speaker 6 (16:14):
First of all, the kids fair better the closer.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And closer that that schedul jewel gets to fifty to fifty.
But what it's doing, it's not so much the hours.
I mean you guys know, like the kids at their
your house, Like are they are you spending like all
this personal, one on one frontal lobe development time with
them now? Like they're at their events and they're at
their friend's house, they're in their room on their things.
Like it's not about the number of hours. But when
(16:36):
it's we tell those kids it's half your dad's house,
half your mom's house, it communicates those kids that their
dads are in it to win it and that the
dad is not going to slip out of their lives,
because that is an incredible risk. When we marginalize dads
in their kids' lives. When parents split up and the
courts their co parent, our whole society communicates to men
(16:59):
overall that they don't matter in kids' lives, that they're expendable,
that they only really matter, you know, twenty percent, thirty
percent of the time.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
But when we say no, we know.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
We know intuitively as humans, we know in our personal family,
we know the social scientists decades and hundreds of studies
show that men are just as important to child bearing
as women, dads and moms, and like biologically comically even
in utero to babies. When we acknowledge that with a
simple fifty to fifty schedule that is so elegant and easy,
(17:30):
everybody knows then that that dad is more likely to
stick around, and they are. They're statistically they are most
more likely to stick around and be actively engaged, and
the benefits of that are just exponential.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
So when you went to fifty fifty, did your ex
husband stop paying maintenance because it's a fifty to fifty split.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
No, we only did that for like a year and
then it was there was none of that. And that's
very specific to my family that we just agree that
he was not able to do that. And I don't
believe in maintenance anymore actually at all. And I know
I listened to your recent podcast with your the three
of you and your acts. Your family is so interesting
(18:12):
because you have such a successful co parenting relationship, it's
also unequal and you're and you're paying him, And I mean,
I don't know in my research, in my like all
these years I've been working in this space, like child support.
It's certainly alimenty, but child support always creates conflict and
bad feelings. And I like to say, hell, have no
(18:33):
fury like a woman paying child support. I mean, women
are not having it. And it's so interesting that you
guys struggle with that. Yeah, it's super.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
It's super interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And if I were to wave my magic wand you know,
every single family law case, whether you go through the courts,
which ninety eight percent people do not, or you just
work out between the two of you, maybe you have
a lawyer or therapist involved. But the presumption and the
cultural norm would be fifty fifty. Everybody pays their own
bills like an adult.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
That'd be nice. But the problem, though, I think, is
though with women who you know a lot of women
have reached out to me. They you know, especially whether
it's from an abusive relationship or their husband's cheating. But
they were the stay at home mom. They don't have
the ability to be able to go and get something
(19:24):
on their own. And that's the piece where you know,
they would need that support of a child support and
I that's where it's it's hard for me because it's like, Okay, well,
clearly my ex needs the support to be able to
house our kids in a house and that's where most
of my child support money goes. But also yes, that's
(19:48):
where the anger is too, because I'm like, you're a man,
figure it out, like I you know, I've I paid
you alimony on top of this, Like you know, that's
a that's that is where they're you know, resentbent and
I have them seventy percent of the time. So I
don't know how me paying the highest amount of child
support in Tennessee is fair given the time and the
reason too for our divorce, which again I know that
(20:09):
that's it's a no fault state whatever, but I still
just like that that piece is a and and you know,
and he says and just like he said in the
podcast where he was he hopes one day to not
take it. I just don't ever see that day coming.
And I think that's where I just am like, yeah,
I don't ever see that day coming. I don't believe
(20:31):
I know, you know, why would I start to believe him? Now?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, I mean I don't.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I don't know if any case I've ever heard of
in the UK since I arrived in America where a
woman pays a man.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I mean, I feel like it's a it's more that.
I mean, you know, I don't I've heard more people
or more cases of a woman paying, but I still
also have heard many more of those men not taking
them right well increasingly.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Actually, child support is going out of favor in general.
There's a really this is coming from state data. But
I mean the whole thing is so messy. I mean
it was child support was established well, I mean there's
always been some kind of form of it, child support,
you know, to basically make when women had no economic power.
(21:24):
Being back you know, thousands of years when women couldn't
hold earning positions in societies. I mean even going back
we can get our braids around fifty years ago or
even when my mom was a single mom you know,
forty years ago, thirty years ago, and you know, there
was a sense of that, but that's not the case anymore.
(21:45):
I think forty percent of heterosexual married couples women on
the breadwinners. There is gender equality in the public space now.
Women have been the majority in college campuses and college
graduates since nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
Women have economic power or no.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
And if they're choosing to off ramp to stay home,
that is a choice and it's harsh, but there are
consequences to that choice. The thing is is when it
becomes obligatory, there's resentment. But I hear increasingly cases where
you know, people are when when you take the sports
out of it and you take all the stupid, dated,
(22:23):
not relevant laws out of it, it gives people space
to be decent, brings out their best selves. I hear
anecdotally cases of families where it's like, yeah, maybe she
did or him off ramped and stayed home, or maybe
there was a disabled kid or disabled you know, old
parent that was being cared for, and they're like, okay,
I see it, I have a well I have extra
(22:44):
now you know, I'll float the boat for you for
a year until you get on your feet. You know,
people just are being kind with each other in a
very practical way. But when we are like, okay, you
have to pay me thirty two hundred dollars a month,
until like, you know, I get well, that's just the
only reason he gets thirteen hundred dollars a month is
because you have thirty two hundred dollars a month, and
(23:05):
the court can see that if you were a poorer family,
those numbers would be totally different. And it's very interesting
that the poorer families and what I'm seeing is they
do better. So, for example, there's huge portions of the
population that are eligible to receive child support through the
state and don't do not pursue it, and these are
(23:25):
mostly poor women. And the faith that have an art like,
they have conferences to figure out how to fix this problem.
They see it as a problem that more moms are
not applying for child support. And when they survey these moms,
these poor moms who are probably in a better position
to get you know, would benefit from these few hundred
dollars a month. The reasons that they give are just
(23:46):
so beautiful. They say things like, well, the dad has
the kids part of the time, so why should he
have to pay? Or they say he's already These are
what the they held the government in a survey to
those states that they say, he's already paying as much
as he can. I don't want the government to force
him to pay. They see the men struggling to pay
(24:08):
afford it, and they see the value of the men
taking care of the kids. So why would they get
the government involved in this unfair thing? And it just
would mess up their call parenting and drive the men away.
And they see that, and these are the poor women.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
There's a piece of me that's like all right, like
I asked them the other episode, you know, about fifty
to fifty. And I think there's a piece of me
that still is frustrated because when we got divorced, I
had laid it out and I wrote about this in
the book, but not as harsh as I think I'm
about to say it, but but here I go. Anyways, Uh,
when I had laid out because he was gonna he
(24:57):
signed a post up when we got divorced and he
said he was going to fight it, which you know,
just was so upsetting to me because he knew the
consequences if he cheated again. So you know, sorry, but
those were the consequences, and you signed a post nup,
but my lawyers said post ups don't hold up in
court as well as prenups. So you know, this is
(25:17):
how much it's going to be to fight it. This
is what he could end up with. So I start
to spiral because I'm a child of a divorce family.
I grew up with no money. I fought for everything
I've ever earned. I worked my ass off to get
where I'm at, and you know, throughout our marriage, all
he did was take, take, take in our marriage, so
money wise, and they would blame me for him not
(25:37):
having a job. So when I sat down and kind
of google excelled sheeted things, you know, I put numbers
that I thought were a fair amount, so the things
that the Instagram adds that he was in the podcasts
that we were doing the book, and then I put
another you know, that was the middle column. Then there
was an unfair column on the right, but I put
(25:58):
it there, which was still going to be less than half,
but it was close to half. And then there was
the left column, which I thought was the most fair.
It was split down the middle with what he brought
in the earnings, and that's when he said, okay, fifty
to fifty sixty forty seventy thirty. So I essentially paid
more alimony to have seventy thirty because he knew my
(26:20):
kids were our kids were. The was my what I
didn't want to lose, so that I would pay more
to keep the kids, and that's what I did. So
but now I'm okay, I paid more for alimony, and
now I paid the hymn child support. And there's a
piece of me where it's like that resentment comes in
where it's like, well, I paid for that time, but
(26:41):
that pisses me off. And then now you're getting high
amount of child support and I have them seventy percent
of time. So now I'm like, here, fine, you want
fifty to fifty, take fifty to fifty. And but then
this is my side piece that I'm sorry, I'm going
off on a total tangent.
Speaker 6 (26:54):
I want to hear it all.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I there's a piece of control that I don't want
to lose because I don't like what goes on in
that house. I don't like the fact they play video
games every night. I don't like the fact of the
foods they eat, so It's like there's I can control
more in my house. And I know that's not a
good thing to say, but that's just my truth with it.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
Yeah, And I feel like totally normal that.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
The kids have technology here. I don't like them watching tea.
I don't like any of it. I don't let them.
Don't allow it here. Use your mind, you be creative, color.
You know, there's let's play games. They just go most
of the time. Would you do a day? Isn't it?
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Video games? I'm like, m like, it's like a dagger.
I'm like, why would I want to give him fifty
to fifty of and then then have their little brains
doing that.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I totally I I personally, I think that is the
most normal human feelings. I think it's totally normal. And
I personally struggle with that. I see moms struggle with
all that all the time. There's like so many things
that play like well, one just the human human condition,
like we want to control, right, we love our kids.
(28:01):
There's the parenting instinct that kicks in. And gender plays
a huge role. I mean since we were born, everything
around us told women that we were moms. I mean
that was it. Like we have been conditioned since we
were born to think that we are the better parent.
Speaker 6 (28:20):
And there's an equal messaging.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Well, I think there's very also strong but also confusing
messages to dad because on one hand we're like, no,
we want to be dads, but you should be the breadwinner.
But you shouldn't want to be the breadwinner. You should
be feminists and can see. So there's a lot of
there's a lot of confusion in this moment, and I
think we need to extend each other and ourselves a
lot of grace about how confusing these messages are. But
(28:43):
I'll tell you what I tell myself when I struggle
with those very similar resentments about like oh I want
the control or I think I'm the better. So again
going back to social science, we know. I mean it
is like there's no there's really never ever seen a
study and I follow all this stuff.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
I mean, this is what I do.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
A study that suggests or as any findings that so
that fifty to fifty is bad or has any negative downside,
And the way I think about it frame it up
in my mind, it's when I get frustrated with my
co parent and I'm like, that's not how I want it.
Speaker 6 (29:25):
Done or this is I think it gets be better.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
It is a basic human right for parents the parent
their children. That is a basic rights that parents have.
And there's a basic human rights for children to be
parented by their parents, and we see increasingly a societal
acceptance of that. For example, as a society, we believe
(29:49):
that children should not be separated from their parents at borders, right.
We believe that children should be with their parents, and
we believe and there's such a human craving to be
connected to our fai it's of origin. I mean, look
at the popularity of like ancestry, dot com and twenty
three dot me. I mean, these are bazillion dollar industries
because people are so compelled to know who they are
(30:10):
connected to. And again going back to the importance of
moms and dads equally, it is not my decision and
it is not down your decision to decide if your
kid's other parent is a good parent orner. That is
their dad, that is their dad, and oh man, it
(30:32):
is so hard to accept that some days. But we
are giving them such a gift to just have that
experience and decide for themselves, and that we're planting the
seeds and foundations today when they're I think your kids
are a lot younger than mine, but today they we
are planting the seeds for them to connect and to
make that connection with their dad. It's like, yeah, they
(30:54):
should be on video games and maybe they should have
more like organic food or whatever your beef is, which
is legit, that's real. But at the same time, we're
planning the seats for them. They have that connection and
let's get real. Your dad, your kids dad is a
great dad, right, Like they have two great men parent
father figures in their lives. Like right, this is wonderful.
(31:15):
You have got to do everything you can to nurture that,
not marginalize that. And it's like, yep, they watched too
many crappy movies, they need too much takeout. But now
they are that we are solidifying that relationship and communicating
them that their dad is just as important and men
are just as important and fathers are just as important.
And that is going to reverberate into your folk for
(31:38):
generations and generations and they can grow up and decide
what kind of parents they want to be and if
too much video games would like ruin their lives or not.
But that's not really your decision to make.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, I mean, because it is something where I've noticed
where you know, their question is always like, you know,
when is daddy Day? Or you know, why do we
have more mammy days and daddy days? And it's you know,
it's it's harder to answer that question now because I
want my babies. Like, but I hear what you're saying.
I do hear that.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
What about you, Ben, I mean, situations are really different.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
You pay money to your ex and you pay to
look after the kids seventy percent of the time.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
I pay.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
My ex wife money, but since I split with us,
she's had Troy most of the time because of at
that point in time, I traveled a lot. Therefore, a
fifty split would never have even a seventy thirty split
would never have worked because I was I was not
(32:42):
around for chunks of chunks of time due to my
due to my work, and then I moved away to Aberdeen,
which was seventy hours away, so I could never I've
never been in a place where I've been able to
even try and have fifty fifty or even close to it,
which is why I mean, no one likes to pay
people money every month and I've done it for years.
(33:05):
But in all fairness to my ex, she's always had
Troy most of the time. So it's a completely different
scenario where she's, yes, she gets money, but she's taken
the responsibility of eighty percent back then.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
But even it's now even more than.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
That because because I'm over here, she's always she's always
had them, So though there's been struggles to pay the money,
and nobody likes to pay money that deep down, I'm like, Okay,
she's she's got them most of the time, but it's opposite. Yeah,
you're paying money.
Speaker 6 (33:38):
That's unusual. Yeah, that's unusual.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Yeah, So I understand your like any any anyone in
this world when they listen to it, is like, how
does that? How can that even make sense? It just doesn't.
It's like taught us to your brain and bank account.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Everyone, Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
And I mean, things are changing, and honestly, you know
what I think is changing, because here's the other thing
that I like to mention in my you know, quest
to change everybody's hearts and minds on this topic.
Speaker 6 (34:11):
The world is changing so quickly.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Like I've been working on this issue for a good
ten years, and it is remarkable to me how quickly
like the snowball is happening. Like now we have six
states in the United States that have presumptions of fifty
to fifty parenting. So when you split up, if you
were to go to court, at the court would be
like it's it's fifty to fifty unless there's and there's
(34:33):
like a dozen.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Yeah, And in Nashville they are very much like it
is very much they want dads. I mean, it is
hard for women to even get sixty forty in Tennessee.
So because I have had a few friends by and
now I'm like, girls, take the sixty forty, you know,
or take the fifty. It's like it's it's because I
get it. I get the emotional it's it's hard, it's
a lot, you know. It's like I'm always the parent
(34:55):
that's on them, and it's like it's it's as much
as I love the time, I I get the exhaustion
of it too.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
But sixty forty is I mean, let's think about that.
That's only another two nights a month. But it's only
two nights. It's not making a sizable difference in your
relationship with your kids. But what it does is solidify
you as a primary parent.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
Yeah, and that's very important. You know.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I remember this one guy, I know, he they were
young parents and they weren't married, but they were you know,
split up with the kid as a baby, and they
were doing a good job. You know, they were making
a work and they had a lot of resources, but
they were doing it. And they were doing a good
job called parenting, like in a probably clumsy way, but
they were in it to win it. And then all
of a sudden she started just taking them to court
and going for all the primary care and there's some
(35:42):
false allegations and the money and childs and it didn't
make any sense. And he said, after one court appearance
he took her so he's like, what.
Speaker 6 (35:49):
Are you doing?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
This isn't make any sense at all, and she goes,
can you She's like, yeah, but think about how bad
it looks to everybody if I'm not the primary parent.
Speaker 6 (36:01):
And that's real, and I hear her.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
There is a lot of societal pressure from your family friends,
depending on what community you live in. And you live
in a community where fifty to fifty is the norm
and there's acceptance of that, but that's not true in
a lot of especially oral communities in this country, when
you are lindad is a bad mom if you are
sharing parenting time. That said that said, that is quickly changing,
(36:24):
and I feel very I am a thousand percent convinced
that our kids, you know, your kids, My kids are
going to grow up and they're statistically not going to
have They're not going to stay with their husband or
wife for the rest.
Speaker 6 (36:36):
Of their lives.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Right, They're going to statistically grow up in some blended,
convoluted family and they're all going to do fifty to fifty.
They are absolutely going to do fifty to fifty. That
is exactly where all the world is moving. And they
will judge us. They will judge us.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Well, what is a minus? You know us going to
a fifty five? What is some tools or tips that
you'd give me that are also in your book.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Well, a lot of this is just like internal work,
like just accepting that nobody is the better parent. I'm
not sure when this is been published, but it's right
before in the middle holidays, and I've been doing a
lot of media on those, like tips for co parenting
during the holidays, and it is really tough to accept
that both households are equal. So even if one parent
(37:28):
has like let's say, a really big family with all
these fun traditions and weeks of really fun holiday stuff,
and maybe the other parent doesn't have any family in
town or really just limited you know, traditions, or maybe
they're making up traditions for first time, that does not
make one family more important than the other in terms
of the time, and that could be hard. You know,
the holidays are so loaded and they're so fraud and
(37:51):
we all come to it with our expectations and our own.
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Hopes for it.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
But that's it's really our opportunity to like exercise our
best all on steroids and again, like again looking at
through the holiday lens. Just I mean, I can't emphasize
enough like extending your co parent grace if you've been
in a relationship with them, we know all their button issues.
Speaker 6 (38:15):
You know how to push their.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Buttons and piss them off and get under their skin.
And as tempting as it can be, like restrain yourself right,
and everyone's struggling.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
This is all new.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
We're like reinventing history and family and doing all these
crazy things without models. You know, I'm a child divorce
your child of wars. We're figuring this out as we go,
and I think it's just like being forgiving and gracious
to each other.
Speaker 6 (38:40):
It goes a really, really long way.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, for sure, Where can our listeners find you.
Speaker 6 (38:47):
Well relevant to this?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
My book is The Fifty to Fifty Solution, and of
course it's on Amazon. My website attached that is Mom's
for Shared Parenting dot org, for sure Parenting dot org,
and all the social media. My instagram is thought Emma Johnson,
that'd probably be a good one.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Love it well. Thank you so much for coming on
and yeah, I've got some thinking to do.
Speaker 6 (39:16):
Thank you for no thank you guys. I really appreciate
you tackling this. I know it's heavy.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, it's it's hard. It's so hard, but I at
the end of the day, I always want what's best
for the kids. So you know, if the kids were
also wanting more time, I mean that's and what I
do like about our relationship is you know the fact
that like I'm going away for a movie in January,
it's like, hey, I need you to watch the kids
for twelve days, and so it's like we have such
a good like he does help me when you know,
(39:43):
I go away for work and vice versa. But I
think the money piece will always be the struggle for sure.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
So yeah, it's tough because like when he feels broke,
of course that money is super helpful, but he resents
taking it too, especially as a man.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
I don't think so he says he does, but I don't. Mike,
if you're listening, you both know, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
But if you had, if you had a lower income,
it would be a non issue because it just there
wouldn't be money on the table, right, And it's like
then the morality of it would be not even upper discussion.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, but again because we talked about the last time
where he's like, you think I like it, and I'm like,
I will always think you like taking it until you
stop taking it, like, because it's just what I've believed
in our marriage because he was just didn't respect the money.
So that's where it's but that's a piece of our past.
So anyways, uh so we'll see maybe one day, you know,
(40:45):
when he's going to stop taking it. When they're seventeen, Well.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I wonder if he gets into a relationship with somebody
that has money, then what then? I don't think the
state usually factors.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
That doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter at all.
Speaker 6 (41:01):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
But then then his linement, I don't need it, I
need it that that isn't relevant anymore because she would
have the money.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
I know.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yeah, we'll see to be determined, Emma. I'll keep you posted,
all right. But thank you so much for coming on. Everyone,
go get the fifty to fifty solution, the surprisingly simple
choice that makes moms, dads, and kids happier and healthy
after a split. Thank you so much, Emma, Thank you guys.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Bye by
Host
Jana Kramer
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