March 5, 2025 • 32 mins
Jana and Allan get a lesson in how to survive an unpredictable relationship when they talk to Dr. Nadine Macaluso, the ex-wife of Jordan Belfort (The Wolf of Wall Street).
Nadine shares the REAL story behind Allen’s favorite movie, and we learn the facts about trauma bonds and how to navigate them.
Plus, Nadine reveals how she recovered after the end of her marriage.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Jenna Kramer and I've Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, Babe, I've actually been looking forward to this one
because of our guest that's coming in as actually the
real life Margot Robbie and my favorite movie, which is
The Wife, the Wife of Wall Street.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
The Wolf of wall Street.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Well she was the Wife of Wall Street.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yes, she's the wife of the real life wife of
Jordan Belfort. So it's interesting because as said, it's my
favorite movie, not because of all the rug history behavior
in it, but actually because of the humor and the
you know.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Action action side of it. It's kind of got a
bit of everything.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
That's got a love story, it's got ridiculously funny humor,
it's got action in there. I'm looking forward to the
the interview to see what just to see how accurate
it was, because some of the movie is absolutely hilarious,
like the scene with these He's Lamborghini where he's trying
(01:01):
to get back.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
And he's stumbling out from the accident.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Well, her book is called Run Like is called Run
Like Hell, A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, escaping, and Healing
from trauma bonds. Do you have any have you had
trauma bonds? Before.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I'm not really one hundred percent clear on what a
trauma bond is, so I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
No, maybe I haven't. I've not recognized it.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I don't know exactly what it is, so I can't
tell you I've been in a relationship where I've had
a a trauma bond. I've been in relationships that I
shouldn't have been in.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, I think that's the entire population on the earth.
I know have all been in relationships that they shouldn't
be in, you know, but.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
The reasons I would go back to it.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I don't know if it's a trauma bond or whether
it's a a fear of being alone, or whether it
was a comfort thing. I'm not sure what the correlation
is between between trauma bond and being and being alone.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I guess I can't really I can't really explain.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Or maybe it's something to bring to the therapist what.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Trauma bond is. Obviously you have been a sounds of it,
and you know what a trauma bond.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, But again, I think I think we all have it. Well,
I mean, I think most people have had relationships that
are not the healthiest of relationships and they kind of
go in a circle. Unless people just have the most
incredible boundaries and know their worth from from the very get,
then maybe they don't. But I would say I would
(02:39):
most people have had a trauma bond in their life
at some point.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I think I had the trauma bond with a phase
of my life, but it was just not yeah, that's
part of it, but it was just like constant. There
was a phase where it was just constant trauma. So
they came a point where that's what all I become
used to, not always in a relationship is but just okay,
(03:06):
deal with this next thing, okay, and now add something else,
Now add something else. It was almost like a building
a skyscaper of trauma. That phase was always had trauma,
So it wasn't a bond with trauma. It was more
constantly having to deal with it. Yeah, that was my
(03:26):
bond with It was always there that way.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It was just you in a bond. It was just
another person.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
It was just me and trauma for a phase. Well
we became best mates.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Isn't that nice to think though, that you're not alone
in that, Like everyone in their lifetime has experience art
in trauma. And even though we don't that's not like
a very a comforting thing to want other people to
experience that, but that you're not alone in it. We've
all had really hard times and days.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, And obviously there's different levels in those different phases
in life and those different levels of trauma. Sure like you,
even in your best phase of life, you'll you have trauma.
It just not might it might not be as piercing
or as strong as a trauma that you went through
in the previous phase of your life where it was
a really negative.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Do you think you can measure pain?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I think your heart will tell you how intense that
that pain is. And pretty much if I was to
say you, okay, measure the pain when this happened at
this phase in your life, you're you would be able
to give it a grading one out of ten.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
No, I mean like someone else like to measure someone's
Like someone might be going through something that's more traumatic,
but you might be going through something too, And I
don't think you can. It might be it might on
paper look more traumatic, but I don't think you can.
I think I don't think you should compare and measure
(04:57):
people's pain or I think pain is just pain and
it hurts regardless of pain.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I think
pain is pain, but.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I think there's things the asterisk of like, of course,
if it's like losing a child, like I think that's
a you can't compare apples to apples and things like that,
but you can't.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
But it's a really good point because something that is
really painful at first that can become normal. Almost the
pain becomes dull down, doesn't it, because the normality of
that thing, which is clearly not normal, becomes your normal
for the pain almost gets masked because of it, and
(05:37):
you don't feel hurt as much because you're used to
feeling it. Going back to that point in my life,
I was used to dealing with hassle and stress and
trauma at the point where I'm like, well, these little
stress in life are not stresses because look what I've
had to deal.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
With, right, I just want I just don't want people
to ever feel like, oh I can't feel sad or
pain for this because it's not as bad as this.
It's like like, for example, when I was in an
abusive relationship, I was like, well he just like I
just have a black eye, Like when I would go
into meetings with other women, like they would have stab wounds,
(06:16):
and so I remember going out with my therapists and
being like, Amy, how can I complain that like he
gave me a black eye or you know, he bruised
ribs when like that woman got stabbed like ten times.
And she's like, Janney, you can't compare a pain like
She's like, a pain is pain, and to measure that,
like just because it wasn't as bad, it's still a
painful thing that happened. So I think, even though you
(06:38):
know you're saying too, it's like, no matter what you
go through, you yes, five years ago it was maybe
not as as bad and you got to go through it,
but it's still a painful experience. It might not have
been as painful as someone else's, but I don't think
you can measure that.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, And that's unfortunately the evil. And this is when
things are going good as well, you will all compare
it to someone else. When things are going good, you'll
be okay, they're going good, but not as good as
that person or not as good as this.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And it's the same thing.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
When you experience pain, you rationalize it because well, I'm
not going through as much pain as this person.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Right, It's like when you go to therapy and complain.
I'm like, why am I sitting at complaining? I'm healthy,
I don't have cancer. I don't have this. And she's like,
it's still what you're dealing with, even though yes.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's still something that interrupts your life and interrupts the
balance of your life for you to move forward, and
anything that interrupts the balance of your life that allows
you to keep moving forward and keep improving, and then it's.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Important to deal with it, and you know it interrupts
your life. Trauma bonds. So let's take a break and
then get Nadine on and talk about her book Run
Like Hell and How to Break Free from Trauma Bonds. Hill. Hello,
(08:09):
how are you good? Well, I'm Jana. This is my
husband Alan.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Hello. Nice to meet you.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Nice to meet you.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
We so appreciate you coming on the show. So when
you knew Margot Robbie was playing you were you like,
oh my.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Goodness, Well you have to remember she wasn't famous yet.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Oh well, I guess you're right. I knew her from
these she had done a few things, but that's definitely
what catapulted her into into stardom for sure. So I
didn't really know were you nervous about? Like, how did
you hear that they were making this film?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Well, so my ex husband had written the book The
Wolf of Wall Sure, yeah, right, And so then he
said to me, you know, we're going to make it
into a movie. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding.
I thought that I had escaped you. I moved from
New York to California, thought this was all behind me,
and so I went to like tons of therapy. I
(09:09):
cried about it, you know, and then I surrendered and
I said, Nay, this is bigger than you.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So I guess that leads me then into what you're
doing in your book. How for those listening, Because I
know what a trauma bond is, just because I've been
in therapy since forever. But what is your definition of
a trauma bond?
Speaker 4 (09:31):
So, a trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between
two emotionally attached people. But what makes it so harmful
is that one of the partners wants power and control
over the other partner, and so there has to be
two things for it to be a trauma bond. It
has to be a power and balance where one person
(09:54):
has the power and abuses it. And then the second
thing is something called intimate and reinfor forcement, where seventy
percent of the time they're cruel and controlling, but that
thirty percent of the time they're kind, helpful and generous.
So it's that actual mixed bag of treatment that creates
(10:15):
the band in the trauma band.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, well, Field Transparency willfe Wall Street is my favorite
movie of all time, of all time, And listen, this
is not to celebrate or under the underestimate your challenges
within the movie.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And it's not.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
It's not for the movie's very low moral compass in
most of the cast. It's the humor within the movie,
which I absolutely love. Now, like some of my biggest
laughs are are from that movie. But how so, I
guess my question is, with it being one of my
favorite movies, how close to life was it actually portrayed?
Speaker 4 (10:54):
I would say ninety percent? Really, Oh yeah, it was
that crazy. I had a first sticker on my car
that said I have my angels on the run because
after the boat sang, the plane crashed, it was just
total utter chaos. All the time, because all the drugs
(11:15):
and all the money, it was just nuts.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And the Lamborghini scene was that truthfully, when he comes
out of the country club.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
One hundred percent, which is my favorite.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
Scene, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, because he you know, I
didn't know what had happened, that he had crashed his car,
but he ran out to the country club to make
a phone call because our phones were probably tapped, right,
And then he comes in and he's stumbling, but I
said to him, like, just go upstairs.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
And then like ten minutes later, the police ring the
doorbell and they say, oh, you know your husband's been
in action. I said, no, he's I sleeping upstairs. They said,
you want to come outside and see the car. I'm like,
how the hell did somebody lit and crashed a car
like that?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Colleels, So how did you break that trauma bond from
your ex husband?
Speaker 4 (12:10):
So, you know, as the movie depicts, there was one
time in our relationship where he got violent with me
when I gave fund without drugs. It's a little different
than it is in the movie. And when I talked
to him about all that, and I was like, you know,
it was so hard because he did gets sober. He
was like, it wasn't that bad, and his lack of
(12:31):
remorse really was like the knife in my heart. And
then he got arrested, so I was like, oh, there's
my ticket, there's my window. Because he had to wear
an ankle bracelet, so I knew I was safe. I
knew he couldn't say I was a drug addict or
take my kids or whatever because he was now the
government's problem. For me, I think it was easier in
(12:54):
a way than for most women.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
But emotionally though, that trauma bond holds on. I mean,
I know, at least my ex husband like that's it
took a long time to release that trauma within that relationship.
So how how did you step through that? And what
are some of the tips in your book that you
help other people get to the other side.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Yeah, so I actually went away to a clinic for
a week.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Did you go to Hoffmann or.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
I mean to something called the Caren Foundation and the
program they're called Breakthrough. Okay, I went there. But what
I say to the women I work with is that
when you're in a trauma bond, you're so obsessed with
the other partner, they have to turn the mirror back
on them and start to get really curious about themselves.
What are their attachment patterns, what are their personality traits,
(13:43):
what do they need?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Like?
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Who are they? Because you lose yourself in a trauma bond,
So we start with that. I give everybody three assessments
when they come to me, and I start with a
deep excavation of who were they? And then I really
work with them on the cognitive dissonance, which is the
confusion of is he good? Is he bad? Am I crazy?
Is he crazy? It's a relationship good or bad? Right?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Interesting?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I see you talk about something cold and just if
you can elaborate on it, that'd be great. And it's
called the Carpman triangle. Yes, do you know what that means?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I've learned about in therapy, but yeah, it's yeah, try,
I'll let you explain it.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah, triangle. And this is another reason why tromo bone
is so confusing, because the pathological partner initially can be
the rescuer. Then they're the perpetrator, usually of abused, but
then when you confront them about any abuse or lies
or betrayal, they become the victim.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And then it just keeps circling and circling in circle.
It's also like the if you've seen the power and
Control wheel two, it's the abuser. It's it's like that.
It's that circle too. It it goes, it keeps going
and going, and it's just in every action, it just keeps,
whether it's the triangle or the circle of abuse.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Yeah, mm hmmmm hmmm. So that's that's what pauses the
cognitive disson that and the intermittent behavior.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Well, because you start to question your own sanity. You're like,
wait a minute, am I the because now like you
hurt me? Wait what like? And how is this now?
And how are you upset about this when you just
hurt me?
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Like?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
And that's the part where it's just the crazy making,
the gas lighting, the not knowing your reality.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Okay, So if you're involved in something like that for
so long, and I know you're there as well with
how do you not take the negativity and the treatment
and abuse from that relationship into another one?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Watch the system in place to deal with that.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
That's really an excellent question. And so one of the
ways that I work with my women is that I
help them make meaning out of their suffering, because we're
meaning making individuals as humans. And if you just think, oh,
I just went through this because like life wanted to
torture me. But any time we've gone through a very
(15:58):
difficult experience or traumatic experience, it really is a time
for us to go inward and learn and learn about ourselves.
So there's difference between being victimized and having a victim mindset.
And so I try to get them out of that
mindset and be like, Okay, yes, this happens. What can
we learn from it, what can we do about it?
What can we do so it never happens again.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
It's so much easier said than done.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
The yeah, And I'm not, you know, the type of
therapist I am. You know, when somebody's gone through a
relational trauma like this, I'm not just like, well, how
do you feel? You know, we're in the emotional emotional
emergency room and we're doing emotional triage work. So they
can text me, they can email me, and we're really
(16:45):
in it together. I go to court, I'm talking to
their lawyers, so it's a real involved therapy.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And how much of this, well, I guess when you
were married to Jordan, how much of that's of stuff
did you know? Did you know anything like that's a
time in order to have coping mechanisms and things.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
No, you have to remember twenty five years ago and
nobody was talking about narcissism and trauma bonds. Not so
when I met him, because I was twenty three when
I married him, Like six weeks after I met him,
I put myself in therapy because I said, there's no
way I can handle this guy. I can't handle the
lifestyle I grew up or in Brooklyn. I can't handle
(17:27):
the guy. And so that's why I became a therapist,
because I believe that therapy saved me.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Because because you guys share two kids together, So I
think that's the piece where I struggle with because for me,
you know, especially having two kids with an ex, you
have to still communicate with them. So there's a piece
of that trauma that is still like yes, I've worked
through it, but I mean it recently, just had a
big explosion with him, because it's like there are still
(17:56):
things that are really hard, and then when you have
to still deal with it person, it's really hard to manage.
And you know, luckily I've got you know, my husband
to talk to and my therapist and my friends and
stuff to have counsel around it all. But that's the
piece that I think I struggle with because it's like,
it's easy to have a clean break from someone you
don't have kids with, But what have you found to
(18:18):
be the most helpful tools when you do feel that
yourself getting heated and flared up again with all the
stuff that you went through with him, and still having
to have communication and contact with him.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Yeah, well, you know therapists are people, too, right, So
I mean I've gone to therapy with him, like with
my sign and screamed at him in therapy. Okay, so
I've had my moments where I've just lost it, but
nothing get solved in an escalation. So what I luckily
for Jordan and I we actually really always got along afterwards,
(18:53):
by some miracle. I don't know why or how, but
we just did. We both chose the kids. And I
think the biggest piece of advice I can give to
anybody is don't engage, don't defend, don't explain. You couldn't
change this person. You couldn't collabor you know, you couldn't.
(19:13):
You couldn't collaborate with this person, right, So it's not
going to get better once you get divorced, and even
though you have to share kids and just to expect
that it's going to be difficult, and there's methods like
ray Rock. A lot of my patients when they have
to answer emails from them, instead of answering it themselves,
they go to chat ept and ask them to email
them like, how do I respond to this? Because of
(19:35):
course it is very triggering, and especially you know when
you love your kids and you want to.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Protect them, right, is there something in your book that
when you were writing it, you're like, I still struggle
with this.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
You know, at this point in my life, it's been
so long. Well, I can give you a real life example.
So when I first started to get public, right with
all of this, because I waited a long time to
after the movie. If you notice, I didn't just say
something just to talk. I waited till I actually had
something to say. And as you could imagine, my ex
(20:23):
was not so thrilled.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Oh so he gets to tell his story, but you
don't get to tell your story. Classic he said to
my kids, I can't believe your mother's doing this.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
And I said, oh, is Jordan my victim? Now? Is that?
What's happening, And I said, tell you, dad, he wrote
a book and made a movie. I can make a
three minute TikTok and you can, right. And if I
backed down to him, I'm not walking my dog. But
he tried, but I but I just said, you know,
(20:54):
the train has left the station. I'm here to help people.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Sorry, Right, that makes sense. So what are some of
the biggest takeaways that you want people to know with
your book?
Speaker 4 (21:05):
So one, some of the biggest takeaways are that if
you're listening to this and something's resonating and you feel
like you're in a trauma bond, don't ignore your gut
because I just did a video about the vagus nerve
and how it connects to our gut and sends signals
back up to our brain. Our gut tells us the truth.
And if something is like you're like, oh oh, don't
(21:27):
ignore it. Reach out to the helpers because there are
helpers everywhere that can help you. And if you decide
that you're in it and you're living with somebody and
you're going to leave, don't tell them. You can never
let them see you coming. You have to now wear
the mask like they wear a mask. I call them
mask Romeo and Dirty John. You have to wear the
(21:49):
mask and plan your escape without them knowing.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Okay, you talk about the connection with the vegus, naive
and your gut, So how much of that is actual prey?
Isn't real life feeling that transmits? And much of it
is actually emotional trauma from from the past that you've
got in your your brain is then programming.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Is it difficult for people.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
To to separate or make a distinction between between the two,
because I would I would imagine that there's a reaction
to something which you might feel sometimes is your gut instinct,
but it's actually trauma from when you felt something similar before.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Yeah. Well, the actually the difference is that when you
really get triggered with trauma, Yes, you can, like there's
a saying if you feel hysterical, it's historical, right, that
it can be from the past. But I find that
those reactions and triggers have a lot more words and
(22:50):
have a lot more narrative then when you're in the
present moment, because the vagus nerve the body is in
the present moment. That's why it's so important to listen
to it. So I give an example of this when
my ex was asking me to marry him, and I
reached out and said yes, and my gut said uh oh,
(23:13):
and I totally overrode that. I was like, I'll take
that by the part diamond, thank you, and so and so.
The vagus nerve is really in real time, okay, because
the body of time. Yeah, great question, thank you, welcome.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
What are for you the biggest red flags that you
see in relationship couples that you were like, this is
what you should watch out for.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
So you know, the first one is a substance use disorder.
That's usually a problem if you go out on a
date somebody has ten drinks. That's not a great sign.
But also a very simple one is trying to set
a boundary with your partner. You know they might come on,
you know, because people were like, how do you know
it's love bombing? Maybe it's just real love. Maybe you know,
how do we tell the difference? Well, if you're confused
(24:02):
about that, you don't know if it's love bombing or
just like a great new relationship, set a boundary, tell
them something you won't tolerate, tell them something you won't
stand for, and see how they behave if they're like, yeah,
I hear that. You know, that makes sense. I respect that, Okay,
But if they get defensive and angry and want to
(24:23):
plow through your boundary, that's a huge red flag.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
God, I wish I knew what boundaries was when I
was twenties or even thirties. Me too, Yeah, a lot
a bummer man learning it at forty is this is
such a blow.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Like you learned it, You learned it. I didn't learn
it either. So I went to the Karen Foundation.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Wow. Yeah, gosh, the things you learn. And then when
you know, speaking of like narcissism and stuff, what is
something that you want to go Actually, that's not accurate
with that.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
That's a good question.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yeah, so you know the person in this relationship, I don't.
I think they're just a narcissist, because narcissists are entitled,
God bless you, they're entitled, they're self absorbed, they're exploitative.
But I find that these people I call them a
pathological lover because what I say is that this person
(25:17):
will use harm, exploit, and betray everyone to get their
needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. And I
believe that anybody that would do that is mentally unwell,
and that's what pathological means. So I think they can
have some narcissism, some psychopathy, some sadism, some machiavelianism in them,
(25:40):
and they usually are impulsive. They usually have a compulsive
process disorder like sex or gambling, substance abuse of mood disorder.
They're very complicated being.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Are you looking at me?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
No, no, no, from my past, I'm like just shaking
my heads over here, just connecting.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
So there you know what I'm like you they were
just a narcissist.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, okay, right, yeah, Now that's good to hear, like
all the because you people did and I've said this before,
were they really use the word narcissistic or you're a
narcissist so many times when people don't really know what
it is or what it entails or what it surrounds.
So it's good to actually hear you say, well, it's
(26:30):
not just narcissism that people have to feel and look
out for. It's all these yeah, it's all these other
sociopathic things.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Exactly exactly, because what happens behind it's all about the
intention behind the behavior, right, So it's like somebody can
have a level of intentions and we don't know it.
We just think like, oh, they just want to be
you know, like like my ex when I when I
(26:58):
was personating him, and he was like, I'm not going
to marry I'm not going to date you if you
don't marry me, and I was like, what, I just
want to date, you know, But it was that was
like not of the discussion. I couldn't have a boundary.
It was his way or the highway. And I think
that that was highly manipulative to kind of trap me in.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Was there a part of you that was attracted to that.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
You know, I'm from Brooklyn, so we would get into
like actually rip rrian screaming fights about that, and I
think what would happen is I would feel violated. But
he was such a strong person and I was so
madly in love with him. I was just like, oh,
he just loves me so much.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Right. Well in at twenty he said what twenty three?
Speaker 4 (27:45):
Yes, you know, yeah, I was really not that right
at that point in my life, and I really believed
in the myth of romantic love.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Right, Okay, So I know we kind of talked about
takeaways and stuff like that. But when people read your book,
is there something like what is I guess what is
the biggest takeaway of all of it for the reader?
Speaker 4 (28:09):
The biggest takeaway of all it is that abuse is
never the fault of the victim. Abuse and addiction are
always the fault of the person who's doing that. And
that's why I wrote my book to really turn the
stigma on the victim, because we're always asking why does
she stay? She's codependent, she's got a long helplessness, and
(28:30):
it's like why don't we ask why does he do that?
And so there's so much shame with being in one
of these relationships. It's so embarrassing and humiliating. I know
it was for me, and I know it is for
all my patients, and so I really wrote the book
to turn the stigma of the victim on its head
and say to them, it's not your fault. It's your
(28:51):
responsibility to heal and to get out. But somebody's abuse
is not your fault.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Well, and it's unfortunate the piece of I mean, it
took me years to feel that it wasn't my fault
from my previous abusers, like from the very first one
to my last one, Like yeah, but it is the
hardest piece of all of that is it's always their
words that make you feel like it's your fault so
to rework. I mean even there's things where you know,
(29:19):
my now husband will say to me and it's like
I have to check myself to because it's just hard
because you hear sometimes the abuser's voice override your own
feeling thoughts and actually so it's I'm like, wait, no, wait, no,
I don't deserve that, right, Okay, I have to like
remind myself of that and like, so true, But you
just hear them being like, well you did this, or
(29:40):
like you shouldn't have kicked me out of the house,
and I'm like, the but that doesn't result in you
putting your hands on me or then sleeping with a prostitute,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Like, yeah, you know, they can blame anything. And I'm
glad you brought that up because we do internalize their
voice because at the end of the day, they want
mind control.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
Right, So you're right, you do have to really reprogram
yourself and that takes a lot of time and intention.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah I almost said that, like I've never understood, right,
and I've come across people in my life where you
think about them, you like, you're actually so manipulative. And
I can never understand anyone that wants to be calculated
or manipulative in a way to affect someone's mind and
(30:28):
actually reprogram them. I've never ever ever, and I've listened,
I've been part of it where it's happened to me,
and I can never understand people. I'm like, you know,
just be a good person and realize that this is
this is not right, Like the calculation in order to
affect someone deliberately, I can never like listen, people can
(30:50):
be reactive and impulsive, I get that in nasty at times,
but people who are cal calculated, I can never understand it,
Like over days, weeks, years, trying to really reprogrammed someone's thoughts.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
It is it's really when you don't think like that.
That's why I wrote my book, is because I want
to teach people that people to think like this, and
you need to know how they think, because when you
don't think like that, like you, I could never imagine it,
and it's hard to wrap your head around. It sounds
like you picked a good one this time.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I believe we both picked right this go around. Ye,
But you know, we live and we learn, and you
know we all need to run like hell. So everyone
get run like hell and then run like hell. Yeah, yeah,
it's great.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Yeah, and you know there is hope. I'm happily with
Sudy now for twenty five years.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Well, and I think too, like not to like hate
on ex's and stuff like that. You know, we're all
just doing the best with where we're at in that
season of life and not excusing abuse or any of
those things at in the slightest. But you know, I
so think there's there's hope in the end, for for
for new beginnings.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Possibly there is, there is what we're prime examples.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
Oh, thank you so much for having me. Guys, have
a great day, all.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right, appreciate you. Bye bye, bye bye
Wind Down with Jenna Kramer and I've Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, Babe, I've actually been looking forward to this one
because of our guest that's coming in as actually the
real life Margot Robbie and my favorite movie, which is
The Wife, the Wife of Wall Street.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
The Wolf of wall Street.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Well she was the Wife of Wall Street.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yes, she's the wife of the real life wife of
Jordan Belfort. So it's interesting because as said, it's my
favorite movie, not because of all the rug history behavior
in it, but actually because of the humor and the
you know.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Action action side of it. It's kind of got a
bit of everything.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
That's got a love story, it's got ridiculously funny humor,
it's got action in there. I'm looking forward to the
the interview to see what just to see how accurate
it was, because some of the movie is absolutely hilarious,
like the scene with these He's Lamborghini where he's trying
(01:01):
to get back.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
And he's stumbling out from the accident.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Well, her book is called Run Like is called Run
Like Hell, A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, escaping, and Healing
from trauma bonds. Do you have any have you had
trauma bonds? Before.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I'm not really one hundred percent clear on what a
trauma bond is, so I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
No, maybe I haven't. I've not recognized it.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I don't know exactly what it is, so I can't
tell you I've been in a relationship where I've had
a a trauma bond. I've been in relationships that I
shouldn't have been in.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, I think that's the entire population on the earth.
I know have all been in relationships that they shouldn't
be in, you know, but.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
The reasons I would go back to it.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I don't know if it's a trauma bond or whether
it's a a fear of being alone, or whether it
was a comfort thing. I'm not sure what the correlation
is between between trauma bond and being and being alone.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I guess I can't really I can't really explain.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Or maybe it's something to bring to the therapist what.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Trauma bond is. Obviously you have been a sounds of it,
and you know what a trauma bond.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, But again, I think I think we all have it. Well,
I mean, I think most people have had relationships that
are not the healthiest of relationships and they kind of
go in a circle. Unless people just have the most
incredible boundaries and know their worth from from the very get,
then maybe they don't. But I would say I would
(02:39):
most people have had a trauma bond in their life
at some point.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I think I had the trauma bond with a phase
of my life, but it was just not yeah, that's
part of it, but it was just like constant. There
was a phase where it was just constant trauma. So
they came a point where that's what all I become
used to, not always in a relationship is but just okay,
(03:06):
deal with this next thing, okay, and now add something else,
Now add something else. It was almost like a building
a skyscaper of trauma. That phase was always had trauma,
So it wasn't a bond with trauma. It was more
constantly having to deal with it. Yeah, that was my
(03:26):
bond with It was always there that way.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It was just you in a bond. It was just
another person.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
It was just me and trauma for a phase. Well
we became best mates.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Isn't that nice to think though, that you're not alone
in that, Like everyone in their lifetime has experience art
in trauma. And even though we don't that's not like
a very a comforting thing to want other people to
experience that, but that you're not alone in it. We've
all had really hard times and days.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, And obviously there's different levels in those different phases
in life and those different levels of trauma. Sure like you,
even in your best phase of life, you'll you have trauma.
It just not might it might not be as piercing
or as strong as a trauma that you went through
in the previous phase of your life where it was
a really negative.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Do you think you can measure pain?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I think your heart will tell you how intense that
that pain is. And pretty much if I was to
say you, okay, measure the pain when this happened at
this phase in your life, you're you would be able
to give it a grading one out of ten.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
No, I mean like someone else like to measure someone's
Like someone might be going through something that's more traumatic,
but you might be going through something too, And I
don't think you can. It might be it might on
paper look more traumatic, but I don't think you can.
I think I don't think you should compare and measure
(04:57):
people's pain or I think pain is just pain and
it hurts regardless of pain.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I think
pain is pain, but.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I think there's things the asterisk of like, of course,
if it's like losing a child, like I think that's
a you can't compare apples to apples and things like that,
but you can't.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
But it's a really good point because something that is
really painful at first that can become normal. Almost the
pain becomes dull down, doesn't it, because the normality of
that thing, which is clearly not normal, becomes your normal
for the pain almost gets masked because of it, and
(05:37):
you don't feel hurt as much because you're used to
feeling it. Going back to that point in my life,
I was used to dealing with hassle and stress and
trauma at the point where I'm like, well, these little
stress in life are not stresses because look what I've
had to deal.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
With, right, I just want I just don't want people
to ever feel like, oh I can't feel sad or
pain for this because it's not as bad as this.
It's like like, for example, when I was in an
abusive relationship, I was like, well he just like I
just have a black eye, Like when I would go
into meetings with other women, like they would have stab wounds,
(06:16):
and so I remember going out with my therapists and
being like, Amy, how can I complain that like he
gave me a black eye or you know, he bruised
ribs when like that woman got stabbed like ten times.
And she's like, Janney, you can't compare a pain like
She's like, a pain is pain, and to measure that,
like just because it wasn't as bad, it's still a
painful thing that happened. So I think, even though you
(06:38):
know you're saying too, it's like, no matter what you
go through, you yes, five years ago it was maybe
not as as bad and you got to go through it,
but it's still a painful experience. It might not have
been as painful as someone else's, but I don't think
you can measure that.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, And that's unfortunately the evil. And this is when
things are going good as well, you will all compare
it to someone else. When things are going good, you'll
be okay, they're going good, but not as good as
that person or not as good as this.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And it's the same thing.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
When you experience pain, you rationalize it because well, I'm
not going through as much pain as this person.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Right, It's like when you go to therapy and complain.
I'm like, why am I sitting at complaining? I'm healthy,
I don't have cancer. I don't have this. And she's like,
it's still what you're dealing with, even though yes.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's still something that interrupts your life and interrupts the
balance of your life for you to move forward, and
anything that interrupts the balance of your life that allows
you to keep moving forward and keep improving, and then it's.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Important to deal with it, and you know it interrupts
your life. Trauma bonds. So let's take a break and
then get Nadine on and talk about her book Run
Like Hell and How to Break Free from Trauma Bonds. Hill. Hello,
(08:09):
how are you good? Well, I'm Jana. This is my
husband Alan.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Hello. Nice to meet you.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Nice to meet you.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
We so appreciate you coming on the show. So when
you knew Margot Robbie was playing you were you like,
oh my.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Goodness, Well you have to remember she wasn't famous yet.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Oh well, I guess you're right. I knew her from
these she had done a few things, but that's definitely
what catapulted her into into stardom for sure. So I
didn't really know were you nervous about? Like, how did
you hear that they were making this film?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Well, so my ex husband had written the book The
Wolf of Wall Sure, yeah, right, And so then he
said to me, you know, we're going to make it
into a movie. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding.
I thought that I had escaped you. I moved from
New York to California, thought this was all behind me,
and so I went to like tons of therapy. I
(09:09):
cried about it, you know, and then I surrendered and
I said, Nay, this is bigger than you.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So I guess that leads me then into what you're
doing in your book. How for those listening, Because I
know what a trauma bond is, just because I've been
in therapy since forever. But what is your definition of
a trauma bond?
Speaker 4 (09:31):
So, a trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between
two emotionally attached people. But what makes it so harmful
is that one of the partners wants power and control
over the other partner, and so there has to be
two things for it to be a trauma bond. It
has to be a power and balance where one person
(09:54):
has the power and abuses it. And then the second
thing is something called intimate and reinfor forcement, where seventy
percent of the time they're cruel and controlling, but that
thirty percent of the time they're kind, helpful and generous.
So it's that actual mixed bag of treatment that creates
(10:15):
the band in the trauma band.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, well, Field Transparency willfe Wall Street is my favorite
movie of all time, of all time, And listen, this
is not to celebrate or under the underestimate your challenges
within the movie.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And it's not.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
It's not for the movie's very low moral compass in
most of the cast. It's the humor within the movie,
which I absolutely love. Now, like some of my biggest
laughs are are from that movie. But how so, I
guess my question is, with it being one of my
favorite movies, how close to life was it actually portrayed?
Speaker 4 (10:54):
I would say ninety percent? Really, Oh yeah, it was
that crazy. I had a first sticker on my car
that said I have my angels on the run because
after the boat sang, the plane crashed, it was just
total utter chaos. All the time, because all the drugs
(11:15):
and all the money, it was just nuts.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And the Lamborghini scene was that truthfully, when he comes
out of the country club.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
One hundred percent, which is my favorite.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
Scene, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, because he you know, I
didn't know what had happened, that he had crashed his car,
but he ran out to the country club to make
a phone call because our phones were probably tapped, right,
And then he comes in and he's stumbling, but I
said to him, like, just go upstairs.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
And then like ten minutes later, the police ring the
doorbell and they say, oh, you know your husband's been
in action. I said, no, he's I sleeping upstairs. They said,
you want to come outside and see the car. I'm like,
how the hell did somebody lit and crashed a car
like that?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Colleels, So how did you break that trauma bond from
your ex husband?
Speaker 4 (12:10):
So, you know, as the movie depicts, there was one
time in our relationship where he got violent with me
when I gave fund without drugs. It's a little different
than it is in the movie. And when I talked
to him about all that, and I was like, you know,
it was so hard because he did gets sober. He
was like, it wasn't that bad, and his lack of
(12:31):
remorse really was like the knife in my heart. And
then he got arrested, so I was like, oh, there's
my ticket, there's my window. Because he had to wear
an ankle bracelet, so I knew I was safe. I
knew he couldn't say I was a drug addict or
take my kids or whatever because he was now the
government's problem. For me, I think it was easier in
(12:54):
a way than for most women.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
But emotionally though, that trauma bond holds on. I mean,
I know, at least my ex husband like that's it
took a long time to release that trauma within that relationship.
So how how did you step through that? And what
are some of the tips in your book that you
help other people get to the other side.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Yeah, so I actually went away to a clinic for
a week.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Did you go to Hoffmann or.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
I mean to something called the Caren Foundation and the
program they're called Breakthrough. Okay, I went there. But what
I say to the women I work with is that
when you're in a trauma bond, you're so obsessed with
the other partner, they have to turn the mirror back
on them and start to get really curious about themselves.
What are their attachment patterns, what are their personality traits,
(13:43):
what do they need?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Like?
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Who are they? Because you lose yourself in a trauma bond,
So we start with that. I give everybody three assessments
when they come to me, and I start with a
deep excavation of who were they? And then I really
work with them on the cognitive dissonance, which is the
confusion of is he good? Is he bad? Am I crazy?
Is he crazy? It's a relationship good or bad? Right?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Interesting?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I see you talk about something cold and just if
you can elaborate on it, that'd be great. And it's
called the Carpman triangle. Yes, do you know what that means?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I've learned about in therapy, but yeah, it's yeah, try,
I'll let you explain it.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah, triangle. And this is another reason why tromo bone
is so confusing, because the pathological partner initially can be
the rescuer. Then they're the perpetrator, usually of abused, but
then when you confront them about any abuse or lies
or betrayal, they become the victim.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And then it just keeps circling and circling in circle.
It's also like the if you've seen the power and
Control wheel two, it's the abuser. It's it's like that.
It's that circle too. It it goes, it keeps going
and going, and it's just in every action, it just keeps,
whether it's the triangle or the circle of abuse.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Yeah, mm hmmmm hmmm. So that's that's what pauses the
cognitive disson that and the intermittent behavior.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Well, because you start to question your own sanity. You're like,
wait a minute, am I the because now like you
hurt me? Wait what like? And how is this now?
And how are you upset about this when you just
hurt me?
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Like?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
And that's the part where it's just the crazy making,
the gas lighting, the not knowing your reality.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Okay, So if you're involved in something like that for
so long, and I know you're there as well with
how do you not take the negativity and the treatment
and abuse from that relationship into another one?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Watch the system in place to deal with that.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
That's really an excellent question. And so one of the
ways that I work with my women is that I
help them make meaning out of their suffering, because we're
meaning making individuals as humans. And if you just think, oh,
I just went through this because like life wanted to
torture me. But any time we've gone through a very
(15:58):
difficult experience or traumatic experience, it really is a time
for us to go inward and learn and learn about ourselves.
So there's difference between being victimized and having a victim mindset.
And so I try to get them out of that
mindset and be like, Okay, yes, this happens. What can
we learn from it, what can we do about it?
What can we do so it never happens again.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
It's so much easier said than done.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
The yeah, And I'm not, you know, the type of
therapist I am. You know, when somebody's gone through a
relational trauma like this, I'm not just like, well, how
do you feel? You know, we're in the emotional emotional
emergency room and we're doing emotional triage work. So they
can text me, they can email me, and we're really
(16:45):
in it together. I go to court, I'm talking to
their lawyers, so it's a real involved therapy.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And how much of this, well, I guess when you
were married to Jordan, how much of that's of stuff
did you know? Did you know anything like that's a
time in order to have coping mechanisms and things.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
No, you have to remember twenty five years ago and
nobody was talking about narcissism and trauma bonds. Not so
when I met him, because I was twenty three when
I married him, Like six weeks after I met him,
I put myself in therapy because I said, there's no
way I can handle this guy. I can't handle the
lifestyle I grew up or in Brooklyn. I can't handle
(17:27):
the guy. And so that's why I became a therapist,
because I believe that therapy saved me.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Because because you guys share two kids together, So I
think that's the piece where I struggle with because for me,
you know, especially having two kids with an ex, you
have to still communicate with them. So there's a piece
of that trauma that is still like yes, I've worked
through it, but I mean it recently, just had a
big explosion with him, because it's like there are still
(17:56):
things that are really hard, and then when you have
to still deal with it person, it's really hard to manage.
And you know, luckily I've got you know, my husband
to talk to and my therapist and my friends and
stuff to have counsel around it all. But that's the
piece that I think I struggle with because it's like,
it's easy to have a clean break from someone you
don't have kids with, But what have you found to
(18:18):
be the most helpful tools when you do feel that
yourself getting heated and flared up again with all the
stuff that you went through with him, and still having
to have communication and contact with him.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Yeah, well, you know therapists are people, too, right, So
I mean I've gone to therapy with him, like with
my sign and screamed at him in therapy. Okay, so
I've had my moments where I've just lost it, but
nothing get solved in an escalation. So what I luckily
for Jordan and I we actually really always got along afterwards,
(18:53):
by some miracle. I don't know why or how, but
we just did. We both chose the kids. And I
think the biggest piece of advice I can give to
anybody is don't engage, don't defend, don't explain. You couldn't
change this person. You couldn't collabor you know, you couldn't.
(19:13):
You couldn't collaborate with this person, right, So it's not
going to get better once you get divorced, and even
though you have to share kids and just to expect
that it's going to be difficult, and there's methods like
ray Rock. A lot of my patients when they have
to answer emails from them, instead of answering it themselves,
they go to chat ept and ask them to email
them like, how do I respond to this? Because of
(19:35):
course it is very triggering, and especially you know when
you love your kids and you want to.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Protect them, right, is there something in your book that
when you were writing it, you're like, I still struggle
with this.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
You know, at this point in my life, it's been
so long. Well, I can give you a real life example.
So when I first started to get public, right with
all of this, because I waited a long time to
after the movie. If you notice, I didn't just say
something just to talk. I waited till I actually had
something to say. And as you could imagine, my ex
(20:23):
was not so thrilled.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Oh so he gets to tell his story, but you
don't get to tell your story. Classic he said to
my kids, I can't believe your mother's doing this.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
And I said, oh, is Jordan my victim? Now? Is that?
What's happening, And I said, tell you, dad, he wrote
a book and made a movie. I can make a
three minute TikTok and you can, right. And if I
backed down to him, I'm not walking my dog. But
he tried, but I but I just said, you know,
(20:54):
the train has left the station. I'm here to help people.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Sorry, Right, that makes sense. So what are some of
the biggest takeaways that you want people to know with
your book?
Speaker 4 (21:05):
So one, some of the biggest takeaways are that if
you're listening to this and something's resonating and you feel
like you're in a trauma bond, don't ignore your gut
because I just did a video about the vagus nerve
and how it connects to our gut and sends signals
back up to our brain. Our gut tells us the truth.
And if something is like you're like, oh oh, don't
(21:27):
ignore it. Reach out to the helpers because there are
helpers everywhere that can help you. And if you decide
that you're in it and you're living with somebody and
you're going to leave, don't tell them. You can never
let them see you coming. You have to now wear
the mask like they wear a mask. I call them
mask Romeo and Dirty John. You have to wear the
(21:49):
mask and plan your escape without them knowing.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Okay, you talk about the connection with the vegus, naive
and your gut, So how much of that is actual prey?
Isn't real life feeling that transmits? And much of it
is actually emotional trauma from from the past that you've
got in your your brain is then programming.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Is it difficult for people.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
To to separate or make a distinction between between the two,
because I would I would imagine that there's a reaction
to something which you might feel sometimes is your gut instinct,
but it's actually trauma from when you felt something similar before.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Yeah. Well, the actually the difference is that when you
really get triggered with trauma, Yes, you can, like there's
a saying if you feel hysterical, it's historical, right, that
it can be from the past. But I find that
those reactions and triggers have a lot more words and
(22:50):
have a lot more narrative then when you're in the
present moment, because the vagus nerve the body is in
the present moment. That's why it's so important to listen
to it. So I give an example of this when
my ex was asking me to marry him, and I
reached out and said yes, and my gut said uh oh,
(23:13):
and I totally overrode that. I was like, I'll take
that by the part diamond, thank you, and so and so.
The vagus nerve is really in real time, okay, because
the body of time. Yeah, great question, thank you, welcome.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
What are for you the biggest red flags that you
see in relationship couples that you were like, this is
what you should watch out for.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
So you know, the first one is a substance use disorder.
That's usually a problem if you go out on a
date somebody has ten drinks. That's not a great sign.
But also a very simple one is trying to set
a boundary with your partner. You know they might come on,
you know, because people were like, how do you know
it's love bombing? Maybe it's just real love. Maybe you know,
how do we tell the difference? Well, if you're confused
(24:02):
about that, you don't know if it's love bombing or
just like a great new relationship, set a boundary, tell
them something you won't tolerate, tell them something you won't
stand for, and see how they behave if they're like, yeah,
I hear that. You know, that makes sense. I respect that, Okay,
But if they get defensive and angry and want to
(24:23):
plow through your boundary, that's a huge red flag.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
God, I wish I knew what boundaries was when I
was twenties or even thirties. Me too, Yeah, a lot
a bummer man learning it at forty is this is
such a blow.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Like you learned it, You learned it. I didn't learn
it either. So I went to the Karen Foundation.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Wow. Yeah, gosh, the things you learn. And then when
you know, speaking of like narcissism and stuff, what is
something that you want to go Actually, that's not accurate
with that.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
That's a good question.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yeah, so you know the person in this relationship, I don't.
I think they're just a narcissist, because narcissists are entitled,
God bless you, they're entitled, they're self absorbed, they're exploitative.
But I find that these people I call them a
pathological lover because what I say is that this person
(25:17):
will use harm, exploit, and betray everyone to get their
needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. And I
believe that anybody that would do that is mentally unwell,
and that's what pathological means. So I think they can
have some narcissism, some psychopathy, some sadism, some machiavelianism in them,
(25:40):
and they usually are impulsive. They usually have a compulsive
process disorder like sex or gambling, substance abuse of mood disorder.
They're very complicated being.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Are you looking at me?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
No, no, no, from my past, I'm like just shaking
my heads over here, just connecting.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
So there you know what I'm like you they were
just a narcissist.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, okay, right, yeah, Now that's good to hear, like
all the because you people did and I've said this before,
were they really use the word narcissistic or you're a
narcissist so many times when people don't really know what
it is or what it entails or what it surrounds.
So it's good to actually hear you say, well, it's
(26:30):
not just narcissism that people have to feel and look
out for. It's all these yeah, it's all these other
sociopathic things.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Exactly exactly, because what happens behind it's all about the
intention behind the behavior, right, So it's like somebody can
have a level of intentions and we don't know it.
We just think like, oh, they just want to be
you know, like like my ex when I when I
(26:58):
was personating him, and he was like, I'm not going
to marry I'm not going to date you if you
don't marry me, and I was like, what, I just
want to date, you know, But it was that was
like not of the discussion. I couldn't have a boundary.
It was his way or the highway. And I think
that that was highly manipulative to kind of trap me in.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Was there a part of you that was attracted to that.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
You know, I'm from Brooklyn, so we would get into
like actually rip rrian screaming fights about that, and I
think what would happen is I would feel violated. But
he was such a strong person and I was so
madly in love with him. I was just like, oh,
he just loves me so much.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Right. Well in at twenty he said what twenty three?
Speaker 4 (27:45):
Yes, you know, yeah, I was really not that right
at that point in my life, and I really believed
in the myth of romantic love.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Right, Okay, So I know we kind of talked about
takeaways and stuff like that. But when people read your book,
is there something like what is I guess what is
the biggest takeaway of all of it for the reader?
Speaker 4 (28:09):
The biggest takeaway of all it is that abuse is
never the fault of the victim. Abuse and addiction are
always the fault of the person who's doing that. And
that's why I wrote my book to really turn the
stigma on the victim, because we're always asking why does
she stay? She's codependent, she's got a long helplessness, and
(28:30):
it's like why don't we ask why does he do that?
And so there's so much shame with being in one
of these relationships. It's so embarrassing and humiliating. I know
it was for me, and I know it is for
all my patients, and so I really wrote the book
to turn the stigma of the victim on its head
and say to them, it's not your fault. It's your
(28:51):
responsibility to heal and to get out. But somebody's abuse
is not your fault.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Well, and it's unfortunate the piece of I mean, it
took me years to feel that it wasn't my fault
from my previous abusers, like from the very first one
to my last one, Like yeah, but it is the
hardest piece of all of that is it's always their
words that make you feel like it's your fault so
to rework. I mean even there's things where you know,
(29:19):
my now husband will say to me and it's like
I have to check myself to because it's just hard
because you hear sometimes the abuser's voice override your own
feeling thoughts and actually so it's I'm like, wait, no, wait, no,
I don't deserve that, right, Okay, I have to like
remind myself of that and like, so true, But you
just hear them being like, well you did this, or
(29:40):
like you shouldn't have kicked me out of the house,
and I'm like, the but that doesn't result in you
putting your hands on me or then sleeping with a prostitute,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Like, yeah, you know, they can blame anything. And I'm
glad you brought that up because we do internalize their
voice because at the end of the day, they want
mind control.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
Right, So you're right, you do have to really reprogram
yourself and that takes a lot of time and intention.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah I almost said that, like I've never understood, right,
and I've come across people in my life where you
think about them, you like, you're actually so manipulative. And
I can never understand anyone that wants to be calculated
or manipulative in a way to affect someone's mind and
(30:28):
actually reprogram them. I've never ever ever, and I've listened,
I've been part of it where it's happened to me,
and I can never understand people. I'm like, you know,
just be a good person and realize that this is
this is not right, Like the calculation in order to
affect someone deliberately, I can never like listen, people can
(30:50):
be reactive and impulsive, I get that in nasty at times,
but people who are cal calculated, I can never understand it,
Like over days, weeks, years, trying to really reprogrammed someone's thoughts.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
It is it's really when you don't think like that.
That's why I wrote my book, is because I want
to teach people that people to think like this, and
you need to know how they think, because when you
don't think like that, like you, I could never imagine it,
and it's hard to wrap your head around. It sounds
like you picked a good one this time.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I believe we both picked right this go around. Ye,
But you know, we live and we learn, and you
know we all need to run like hell. So everyone
get run like hell and then run like hell. Yeah, yeah,
it's great.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Yeah, and you know there is hope. I'm happily with
Sudy now for twenty five years.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Well, and I think too, like not to like hate
on ex's and stuff like that. You know, we're all
just doing the best with where we're at in that
season of life and not excusing abuse or any of
those things at in the slightest. But you know, I
so think there's there's hope in the end, for for
for new beginnings.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Possibly there is, there is what we're prime examples.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
Oh, thank you so much for having me. Guys, have
a great day, all.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right, appreciate you. Bye bye, bye bye
Host
Jana Kramer
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