October 17, 2022 • 42 mins
Have you seen the wild Armie Hammer documentary "House of Hammer"?? Jana is ready to get to the bottom of everything going on with the Hammer family, so she's sitting down with Casey Hammer (Armie's aunt).
Hear all the unbelievable secrets behind this powerful family and the abuse the spans generations.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart radio podcast. Okay,
I don't even know, Okay, okay, Army Hammer. HM. There's
a thing called the House of Hammer out right now.
(00:23):
We have Casey Hammer, who is the aunt of Army Hammer,
who did the show, wrote the book. We're going to
have her on and I have I know, Kristen Catherine
have also we've dived into the House of Hammer uh series,
and it is It's wild. I mean, I texted you
(00:48):
at when I am and I was like, you did
this to me, Kramer, because this isn't something I gravitate towards.
Can I just tell you though a story about Army Hammer, please?
I hope this goes where I've prayed it goes. Speaking
of answered, first, let's do that, because I was like,
this guy is a guy we we would swipe on,
(01:08):
you would swipe on him. We're gonna get to the
We're gonna get tall of it. But okay, this is juicy.
Well it's not really, it's not really juicy, but it's
so Army and I did a movie together, like, I mean, hey,
back in the day, I mean way back in the day. Actually,
(01:29):
let me just pull it up right now, because I'm
gonna am. I honestly saw him and I was like,
this is an available bachelor, Like I thought, this is
someone you would think is attractive me. Yeah, America, tell
me you've done too many movies. Without telling me you've
done too many movies. No, No, I'm trying. No, Hong,
It's like, well, let me just go to the movie.
So it was called spring Breakdown and everyone a movie
(01:55):
with Amy Poehler. I'm sorry, have we met and Kristin
Cavalier uh sacer posing here which we had a conversation
in which we can talk about that in our time,
you and Kristen. Ok, let's just let's just stay on.
But it's a very We're going to get a drink. Um. Okay.
(02:16):
So Armie Hammer was Abercrombie boy in Spring Breakdown. Now
I had like a real talking part in this. Um
I didn't. But we're here, we're gonna break it down.
This is this is just and I'm like, literally, I'm
I'm laughing at myself right now. I was seven, number two.
I didn't even have a name either. So but we
(02:38):
were like, but you talked and he was on a
bag or what I'm and so all I remember is
this but we we still had like it was like
so like Kristen was Kristen was seven number three. I
was seven number two, and then um Sophie Monk was
like we were her like little groupies. So like I
(02:58):
would be like like one of my life just like
I can't even read, like you know, Like it was
just like I was one of those girls and the
award goes to ye. So but like Army was on
the show and he like, yeah, there, I am right
there and there wow. So Army like tried to hit
(03:19):
on me, and I was like in my mind, I
was like he's, you know, like ever cramby boy and
he's ever crampy boy like you know, and I was
just like not there with it. So then my friend
Caitlin Crosby was like this is like a couple of
years later, she's like Army. It was just like she's
the most beautiful woman I ever saw, Like, oh my god,
(03:40):
I had the biggest crush on her, Like I tried
to ask her out and so I was like, well
like oh no, oh no no, because honestly, as I
was watching it, I was thinking, and I'm not joking
a I was like this is someone you would be
attracted to and A. And then also I thought he
(04:02):
would be so attracted to you because the women on here,
I mean, the women he's attracted to our stunning. Well
you're very sweet. But I was like, grammar would fit
in this quite well. Well, so I was like, well, yeah,
I'm like like, okay, hook it up right. Well he
had just started dating his wife or whatever, so I
was just like, Okay, he's dating someone. But I was
(04:22):
always like, damn it, the one that got away. Okay,
so let me you're the one that got away. But
here's where I want to break it down. Okay, so
and I will say too. So I watched the documentary
and I actually ended up speaking. I'm not going to
name her name. She was one of the girls on
the documentary, and I reached out to her. I d
(04:43):
m her and I said to her because there was
I know that she's gotten some hate and because he
was technically married at the time, But I'm like, what
these men tell these women that they pray on. Like again,
I am remember calling one of the multiple affair girls
and they're like, wait, your husband was married, and I'm
(05:05):
like yeah, and I've got a kid so like these
girls don't know Like when she's like he called me
in the thing, She's like he called me all the time.
He was texting all the time. Like it's like and
I want you to know that, Like I get it.
And like also like I understand like the being like
prayed and like the you know, he's army hammer and
you're like wanting to be you know, this is like
(05:28):
wild and you're in this world and like you're you're
like I could tell that her testimony was very authentic,
and I just wanted to like for as many probably
hateful things as she was, Like I wanted to just
be like someone that's just like hey, I I like
I saw you, I heard you, and like you know,
get off the blocks, you know what I mean, don't read,
don't read. But like the like he wanted to cook
(05:52):
these one girl's ribs, Like he wanted to take out
these girls ribs and cook them. Like it goes me
on like fantasy stuff, right, like it goes like past
like this, I don't even know the BDS, Like I
was b it's b D S M sex. But like
what that girl was even saying, you know, they had
(06:14):
like the psychiatrist on there like, yeah, that that goes
like even beyond like what this is, Like they had
an expert come on, and she was like that's a
consensual thing, Like that's something both people are agreeing to.
She was like, this is a person abusing essentially under
this like disguise of it being B D S M right.
(06:35):
And I had this I'm not going to obviously name
his name, but when I was I had this guy
that I dated that was like way older than me
and I was younger. And it's scary when you know,
when when the younger girls and the older guys, because
a lot of these girls were super young. Like I
remember this dude that I was with, he was like,
this is my fantasy in my mind. I'm like, well,
(06:56):
I don't want this to be the fantasy, Like I
don't want to do this, you know what. I want
to please this person, you know, because he loves me
and I love them, and like but then I remember
one day we had showed up at one of his
fantasies and I was like, oh my god, like this
isn't actually what. I just played along with it, thinking
(07:18):
like it wasn't going to actually happen. You didn't actually
want to eat my ribs is what I thought, right,
And I'm like, so I'm at this like I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna go into like told detail, but
I just started crying and he got so angry with me,
and I'm like, but I didn't think this was like
a real and these like girls, it's like I'm like
watching them, like, oh my god, it's like they're just
you know, they're again they're playing along with this like
fantasy and like, yeah, okay, it's kind of like cute
(07:39):
and kinky whatever, but then he just takes it to
like this, it was abusive, so abusive, and then also
like that's which is so scary because I'm like, but
like that kind of like like that one with that one,
like I want to eat you and she's like, you know,
she's like at first it's like okay, that's kind of
kind of cute, but then not knowing like I I
(08:01):
want to bite you. It was like I wanna want
to bite you. I'm gonna and like, you know, I
don't know how kinky people get. But then when you
keep going, it's like but the slate I mean now nowadays,
but in my twenties, I would have been like, okay,
like I don't know. Well, I also just think it's
such a slow chip away. I think people are very
easy to judge. Yes, women, but like that. It's not
(08:22):
like this guy slid into the d m S and
was like, Hey, I want to eat your face off
or hey I want to take your ribs out, or
I want to smash you to the ground. Like it's
a very sneaky slow and listen, you're in it at
that point. So then when you go thirty thousand feet
it starts to you start to go like how did
I even do that? Or how did I entertain that?
(08:43):
Or how did we even get here? But you're already
there at this point where he was like you know
so love bombing love bombing love bombing that you're like,
it's hard to get out of that situation, right, and
you actually don't even know you're in it. So I think, well,
I think that's like because I'm like, I remember like
this one dude that wanted to have this like fantasy
that I'm my mind. I'm like I don't want those,
but like I'm gonna go for because it's just a fantasy.
(09:03):
It's not gonna actually happen. But then when it does happen,
you're like, oh my god, this is not what I
actually wanted, like a board, because you're like, ropes aren't hot. Yeah,
but even if it was a healthy relationship and you
went along with it and then you were like, wait
a minute, this isn't what I want, that person then
should go oh my gosh, okay, so sorry you're not
(09:24):
comfortable with that, let's back off. That's where this connection
is missing. So that's where it's like the fantasy versus reality.
And it sounds like, you know, with him, like his
fantasy has turned into this like dark seated reality. And honestly,
when I was watching it, like it's so sad to see,
like someone who's that um charismatic. Well, no, it's sick,
(09:50):
you know, Like it's like it's really like it's it
was sad to see because I'm like man like, but again,
and I don't know, And this is one another person
that like kind of someone that I had, I will say, uh,
someone that I went on a date with was really
into like fantasy playing, and like I was immediately like nope,
like I like again, I can't be kinky. I can
(10:11):
be like whatever, but when you're when there are things
that are not lining up and you want me to
do X, Y and Z, and your fantasies ain't happening
because your fantasy is. But I'm saying this because I
think he is similar to the Army situation, where it's
like this guy could be with anyone he wants to
be with at any point at any time. Army. He
came from a multi multi, multimillion dollar family. I mean
(10:35):
they were like his grandfather didn't want to be the
great grandfather didn't want to be the president because it
wasn't powerful enough like he could have been. And that's
like what was one of the quotes in there, And
it's like, so it's like, I think people that just
can have anything they want, they don't have the capacity,
like they need more, They need more of a fix
they like because everything else is like, oh, just to
have sex with a random girl, like how boring? Is up?
(10:58):
Another hot girl, another hot girl, but let me let
me throw in this fantasy of what I really want
to do. It's because they're so numb and the need
for dominance is underlying in all of those fantasies well
and in the generation too, which is like wild from
like the great grandfather to his dad, like and oh god,
we have this aunt in the waiting room, so let's
just get her on. Hi. Oh my goodness, it's so
(11:37):
good just to see. I've I've been watching you. I
mean I was knee deep in the screeners and watch
all the episodes and I just and like to have
you here. I'm just thank you so much for joining
Wine Down and and being a part of the show.
Oh my god, it's my pleasure. I was so honored
when you wanted me to be on. I was like, yeah, okay.
(11:57):
I first just want to, um say, you know, you
shared a lot of hard truth on on you know,
House of Hammer, and UM, I'm sure you're going to
be helping so many people too from the things that
you've said, you know, just about sexual abuse that you encountered,
and you know, just all the things that you've gone
(12:19):
through in your life. And I just just thank you
for being open, vulnerable, and I just I just want
to kind of affirm you for that because I can't
imagine how hard that was for you to do. Thanks it, Um,
it continues to be hard. It's it's a struggle, it's
it's one thing to UM live it because it's my normal.
So it's what I experienced, so I'm used to it, right,
(12:39):
everything I grew up. But again it's it's UM shining
a light on multigenerational abuse in my family and holding
them accountable. It's kind of sixty two years later, I
sit here before you and it's like, all right, it's
finally coming to the spotlight. And UM, it's been an
(13:00):
interesting journey because again, seven eight years ago, I self
published Surviving My Birthright, which was, as you probably know,
it's a healing journal in a sense where you're writing
and you're affirming what's happening to you, and and then
when you're able to actually hold the book right, it
was UM validating to know that it was real right,
(13:21):
And again I controlled the narrative, and so then I
was living a very quiet life down in San Diego.
And last year I was a kitchen designer at the
Home Depot and one of my co workers were like, Casey,
you better get on social media. Someone by the name
of this in Blonde is blowing up your life. And
I just remember you, guys, I was watching it live
(13:41):
as she Li've read my book, UM found it live
read it and I was like, my life has completely changed,
just like it's so out of control, like being on
a roller coaster and you're doing the death drop right
and you throw your hands up, thinking hopefully I stand
in the car right. And so then, um, there the
moment where I think the universe says, here's a situation.
(14:04):
How are you going to deal with it? Because at
that time, to Army was all over social media and
people were reaching out to me wanting a SoundBite once
they found out he had an aunt, right, and so
I could have taken that route and participated. And it
was like, now, if people are going to talk to me,
I want them to listen, and I want to be
(14:24):
an advocate for victims and survivors. And it was kind
of how can I turn this into something greater in
a sense of shining a light on abuse, because it's
not just physical abuse that you see. There's mental abuse.
There's emotional abuse, and it's so deep rooted that you
get triggered all the time and you don't know what's
(14:45):
happening and you know you're meant to be isolated and
self blame and self hatred and all those things. And
what I'm finding is if people say to me, I
can see a part of my story in your story,
because again and a lot of people will say my
family wasn't as wealthy as yours or dysfunctional. But when
(15:07):
there's a butt, it's very important to spend a moment
and really listen because that's people need to be heard.
And I'm hoping that this long winded version of how
it all kind of happened. And that's how the producers
found me. They they had read my book and said
they wanted to tell my story. Um, and I really
(15:28):
believe they were going to take care of it. And
then seeing the House of Hammer and the end result,
I mean again spotlighting those brave women who came forward
because nowadays with social media, it's so hard and hateful
and and just I take my hat off to them
and everyone else that coroborated my story because I've been
(15:49):
telling this story for a very long time, but now
people are starting to pay attention. You said too in
the docuseries. Really they're going to kill me? Sorry I laugh? No,
No I didn't. I um, but like where was it,
(16:12):
like what was it in you to be like okay,
like I have to do whether whether they kill me
or not. Like it's just like, what was your kind
of like final like breaking point to be able to
share and not have that like obviously you still I
don't know, do you still have fear or that they're
you know, like have you talked to Michael or any
of those people. I mean, you see in the House
of Hammer the third episode. It kind of answers a
(16:34):
lot of the questions. Um, my whole life, I was threatened,
and you know, again behind closed doors it was awful,
and yet once you stepped out the front door, you
had an image, and my grandfather controlled the narrative, so
we were threatened all the time, and like, yeah, your
grandfather was like watching people like that you would like
date or talked to. I was like, whoa, there were
(16:55):
pictures of the inside of my apartments that there was
no way they ever came to. So it was just
very creepy. But again it was my normal. You know,
if you're going to be my friend or I'm gonna
date you, you're gonna be under surveillance and be recorded,
and you know, you pick up the phone and you'd
hear a click and you and I just became such
a smarter you know, it's like high Grandpa, are you listening,
you know, because it's kind of you have to find
(17:17):
humor and a way to deal with it because back
then there was no social media, so you couldn't necessarily
google how to rich people behave right, you just thought,
it's my home, it's my parents. They're gonna keep me safe,
no one's gonna hurt me. And yet in my book,
I go into a lot more detail about, you know,
(17:38):
how I was abused or how I was treated it.
And what's interesting is people see in the house of hammer,
you know, in a eleven year old holding a phone
book while their father shot at them. It's that there
was normal activity in my house. So again it's horrific
to a lot of people. But I just thought he
(17:58):
would never hurt me, or my mom would never hurt me.
And and it's just one of those things where again
I didn't choose this, like I didn't go looking for
this to happen. Um, I was kind of at peace
with where my life was in San Diego and kind
of accepted it. So again I knew there's a reason
(18:18):
I'm still here, like I shouldn't be right. There were
so many times I didn't want to be here, and
I self medicated and did bad things. But I'm a
year and a half no medication and sitting in my
emotions and like, it's a journey, it's a wild ride.
And I'm here to also tell people that you know,
you can't do it alone and you can find people
(18:40):
that will help you. I mean, I learned about therapists
and sliding scales. As crazy as that sounds, it's like, oh,
you know, but again, people will accept they won't to
help you. And and it's so weird for me to
be able to say, okay, right, it's kind of like, no, no,
I'm sorry. It's just it's it's the whole. Yeah, it's
weird right now, but it's good. I mean, I'm still breathing.
(19:03):
I do a lot of yoga, I do I meditate
a lot. Um do you still do you still talk
to any of the family members? UM? Up until about
fifteen years ago when my mom passed away, UM, she
kind of kept the fake family glue together and we
all spent a week on her deathbed and we all
had to kind of be in the same room and exists.
(19:24):
So after that we all went our separate ways and
um again, I was pretty much erased from the family,
and it's um something I've dealt with, you know, to
be part of the Army to Hammer family and yet
not have the benefits of the perks in a sense
and kind of come to grips with what's my bigger
(19:46):
purpose for being here? Why am I here? And literally,
you know last year when the zen Blonde did that,
I had that Aha moment where I can really do
some good and if nothing else, shine a light on
starting a conversation for a safe space for people to
come forward, for consent, for accountability, and for advocating for
(20:07):
victims and survivors. And that's kind of what I don't
know what tomorrow is going to bring, but right now
it's like, even if it's talking on podcasts or Ted
Talks or writing another book, at least it's it's out
there now and I'm not going to stop. I'm curious
like knowing and watching to like knowing the men in
(20:29):
your family. Obviously Army is in believe he's done some rehabs.
Whatever do you do you think that like he can change?
I mean just knowing again, like the history of of
the men in your family. Speaking from experience and how
I grew up. My father was in and out of
(20:50):
mental institutions my whole life and went to you know,
rehab a million times at my grandfather's requests, so it
was never his choice and he never got well, ever healed.
So for me, I believe that until a person takes
accountability and makes amends for what they've done and chooses
(21:11):
to heal, it's just for image. And again, my family,
it was all about image. So when my mom left
the house, her cigarettes were died to match her clothes.
I mean, that's how perfect we had to be. It
was crazy. It was really messed up, but again that's
that's what I'm used to. So I was told, I mean,
women in the Hammer family were disposable. We were ornaments
(21:32):
in the sense. And I was told, as long as
you know, Casey, you look pretty and you say the
right thing and don't embarrass us, you'll be taking care
of the rest of your life. And that's pretty much.
The men ruled the and my father was an only child,
so it wasn't like it's a big family. I mean,
there's my brother who's still alive, and then Army and
his brother Victor, who were still alive and that's it.
(21:54):
That's all that's slept. I don't remember hearing anything about Victor.
Is he still, like was he involved in that? Because
I'm like Victor and Melissa, we didn't hear anything of
her From Melissa, I don't UM. I haven't been in
contact with them since my mom passed. UM, And I'm
not sure where he's at and what's happening right now. Um.
(22:18):
You know, last I heard the people were in l
A or the Cayman Islands. It's it's still I kind
of get my info probably how you guys do on
you know, social media and and things like that. But yeah,
we kind of keep our distance right now because too,
if I live my life afraid, I'm not stupid either
because I go outside and I know they're you know,
(22:40):
I need to be careful. But again, if I let
fear control me, then they take my power. And I
won't give up my power ever again. So if I
can make it through today and maybe change and help
a few people right with my story, and it's good,
it's it's a good day. So one of the things
you said in an interview that it really resonated with
(23:01):
me was it was part of a longer quote, but
you said something that just really it just sat inside
of me for a minute. Was power is the drug
M And I was like, well, I just I mean,
I couldn't even digest that enough. It was just so
short inside of that sentence, but it made it just
fit for them, especially in house of camera. It's kind
(23:26):
of like, how how whatever reason you guys tune in
to watch, or people watch, either for army or entertainment
or just curiosity, by the time you're finished, you're gonna
see a darker, multi generational abuse of power. And I
think that's starting. I think it started before my grandfather,
but unfortunately we only had three hours to tell this story,
(23:48):
and there's so much more that can be told. Um,
but my grandfather you saw, you know, President Kennedy on
the phone, all the President's royalty, I mean, you know,
now King Charles. I mean, there was like all these
people that were in our circle all the time, and
it was interesting to watch him control everybody. He recorded people,
(24:09):
he blackmailed people, and that's how he ran the family also,
and so did my father and brother. I mean, they
all participated and that's how they saw it. And it's
funny too because like my father, you know, killed someone, um,
and my grandfather covered it up and said it was
self defense, and my mother was like, no, he did
it in front of me, pulled out a gun and
(24:29):
shop the guy. You know. So it's like you saw
not only a crime committed, but you saw them make
it go away. I mean, everybody could be bought, Everyone
had a price, so you didn't want to screw up,
like because you saw the ramifications of what my grandfather
picking up the phone could do. And again, it's it's
it's really scary and frightening when you think about it,
(24:52):
especially like you know, when you think about, like again,
people in power, and it's like, yeah, you know, I'm
like I wonder how many people this person is killed
or this, you know, because they have that position of power.
And it's like, oh, one thing that I thought that
(25:19):
this that they did really well. And I want to
know if you kind of agree, is I feel like
a lot of times in our world, when we dive
into a story of one person, we stop at one
person and so like or we maybe go like one
generation over or whatever. But like to see this and
I thought like even the way that they did, the
(25:39):
visual of just showing us the family tree back and
forth and from Army all the way back to your
great grandfather, right, no, your grandfather. Yeah. Um. I just
thought what was really eye opening and what people need
to see more of is that cycle breakers like yourself
are rare, brave, rare, powerful humans. That's what you are,
(26:01):
a brave, rare, powerful human. But we don't see how
it just keeps getting passed down, Like we just we
keep dealing with what's in front of us. But what's
in front of us isn't the whole truth, And what's
in front of us isn't generational usually is it's there's
so much generational behind everything that we're not even giving
the attention or power love to to try to even
(26:22):
figure out where this came from. Like Army came from
somewhere he saw too much. Right, It's not something that
you wake up and become a monster. It's something it's
a learned behavior. So it's kind of this control um
and again, the power to be able to not only
commit a crime, but to make it go away and disappear.
I mean that's huge, right um. And it's it's something
(26:46):
that you know, again, when I used to talk about
this about my family, people would automatically assume, oh, you
must have done something wrong because your family is like
wonderful on the outside. Well, yeah, it's all about image.
I mean my brother, my father, my even my grandfather,
even Army would walk into a room and they're this,
(27:06):
you know, six foot two three four, good looking, personable.
Like I used to always make a joke that they
could all be politicians because you really buy into their image.
So people love them. So if if something's not sitting right,
it was your fault. So a lot of the response
I've gotten from the docuseries, from my friends or people
(27:29):
I've grown up with is I had no idea, and
it's kind of like I tried to tell you, but
you wouldn't listen. So now I think what opened up
the door and all honesty is the me too movement
right brought attention on workplace environment, So I say there
should be me too about home too, Because just because
your parents give birth to you right and say they
(27:52):
love you, it doesn't mean they can do anything they
want to you or put you in harm's way. It's
just it's not okay and it needs to stop. Um
And again, it's one person talking another person talking and
another person and letting them know it's okay to come forward.
I mean, in the Doctor series, you seek consent is
a huge topic because it's such a gray area. It's like,
(28:14):
I'm not here to judge what you enjoy or what
you don't enjoy. But the minute you say no, I'm
not comfortable. Person needs to stop otherwise it's criminal. I
mean there's a line that's crossed. So again, you can't
just say, oh, well, she was really into it, and
you know it's her fault. She didn't live no, and
that's where we need to really talk about it. I
(28:36):
thought that too. There was a couple of the the
women that he I'm gonna say, I'm gonna just say victims.
So when they spoke, they you could almost tell like
they had been shamed into this place of like why
didn't say no? And they even said it, well I
didn't say no, but I was like, okay, but when
you're running away or you're being dragged down a hallway
(28:57):
and being sexually abused, that's what that is sexual abuse
at that point, and you could just I hated it
because I watched them both say, two of them, at
least that I can remember say, well, you know, I
didn't say no. It was like as if as if
it's it's it's okay, or it's you're their fault, or
you know that's not the truth, so it's and it's
(29:18):
not okay. And and and again it needs to Um,
the people need to be held accountable. And it's the
people with money and power and fame that get away
with all of it or most of it because they
can cover it up or silence you. I mean, it's
it's fearful that you know you might be followed or threatened.
And we all know that that's going on in a
(29:41):
sense of when you are going to speak out about someone,
especially someone famous, there's probably threats all the time. And
and and again, I really take my hat off to
the victims that came forward because that they still deal with.
I'm sure a lot of hate on social media. I mean, fortunately, Um,
(30:02):
I think the zen blonde who outed me, who were
dear friends now because she realized that she should have
halfway through maybe asked me like, didn't realize what she
was doing right, Um, But again back then in TikTok,
you had sixty seconds. So I laugh at her and
I was like Lauren, you were you know, like caffeinated wrong.
She goes, No, you don't understand. I only had sixty
(30:24):
seconds where now you know you can talk for a while.
I guess, but you know, again there are She went
and blocked a lot of the haters on my DMS
because I take it personally. I mean, I read everything
and it means the world to me when people tell
me their story or they share an experience or even
just say thank you. I mean, but then you see
(30:44):
that one person um that maybe says bad things, and
it just triggers all that you're working so hard to
get through in your life and deal with. I get triggered,
and it's like you go into this death spiral I
call it, you know, down the rabbit hole of just
like going back to being thirteen years old or eleven
years old or twelve years old, and it's like, I
(31:05):
feel like such a failure that I didn't protect little Casey. Right.
It's like, so you work really hard to try and
go back visually and take her hand and you know,
let's go on a walk or go to the ocean
or something, goofy. I mean literally, it's like there's so
many ways to to try and heal, but it's it's
a constant struggle and people need to know it's not easy. No,
(31:28):
it's it's it's not. But also I want to say
to you too in the you know, thirteen year old Casey,
is you know when your mom was getting hit and
you saw the blood from what your father just did
to her. You know that's something too where it's like
she still brought you in and there's no blame placing
blame on your mom, but it's also like you know
there was you maybe grew up and I'm not trying
(31:50):
to project this just like I'm thinking of like my
past is like then you're thinking like, oh, that's how
it's supposed to be, and that's my worth and that's
what a man should be doing to you, and like
you know, and it's like I'm sure your mom would
probably want to go back and take you out and
never bring you back, you know, but you know, I
don't know how then she was raised her. So it's
like I also know that you know it's um you
(32:14):
you're only thirteen, You didn't know that you you know
how to leave? Could you couldn't leave? The sad thing too,
is that you know That's what I believed in my mind,
that my mom would keep me safe and coming to
grips with on her deathbed, because again, there was all
this abuse going on in the house. And when I
first wrote my book, I had her read it along
(32:35):
with everybody else in the family. Um, when I got triggered,
I think it was in my thirties. I was doing
a b role for victim No More right. It's in
the House of Hammer docuseries and they were like, okay, Ca,
so you're gonna pretend like you're getting you know, raped
in the car or whatever. I was like, okay, cool,
you know, I want to be an actor. So when
(32:55):
that when they started and my hands got held over
my head, all of a sudden something kicked in of
like I'm gonna die, like this is very familiar, and
my body went crazy and I almost killed this guy,
this poor actor, and it was like I was shaking,
and I was and all of a sudden, the floodgates
open and I'm in my thirties and I'm remembering all this,
(33:18):
and I go right to my mom and I'm like,
I must be crazy, right, like I'm remember and she
admitted she knew everything that was happening. So then again
you go, okay, so why didn't you save me? Why
didn't you protect me? And then on her deathbed, and
this is where you can't change people. You cannot. It's
almost like I tried for all these years. I just
(33:40):
wanted her to say I love you, I'm sorry, I
should have protected you, and you know what, that never
came out. So it's that moment where you just feel
broken that no one loves you, and it's but again,
it's that void, and then all of a sudden it
makes sense. It's like, Okay, this is what I'm chasing.
If this is what I need to work on going back,
(34:02):
and you know it's not my fault adublet cases that
I didn't protect little Casey. But it's really hard if
you guys have gone through any abuse, which you know
I'm not, but you know, it's so hard to rewrite
that script and and and kind of love yourself. So
that's what I struggle with. But I'm getting so much better.
(34:23):
But again, it's it's a it's a process. But if
people here that you know, even someone like me raised
in the family like mine, thinking that you know, everything
is perfect and wonderful, I'm really I'm just as messed
up and I struggle, you know, every day. But again,
if I wake up and I have my cats and
you know I can write, it's just yeah, you just
(34:46):
it's it's um, it's a have you been able to
give your heart to someone and be you know, how's
your relationship coming from that? It's Wait, you don't and
you don't super trust me, and that's fascinating to me.
I love you. I mean, now I can look back
(35:07):
at all the men I dated or married, right, and
they're all the epitome of my father and my brother.
I mean, it's like, what what was I thinking? So
I'm the type I'd rather be alone and I don't
do apps or any so yeah, it's like, but I
still believe in the fairytale, you guys, I'm a hopeful romantic.
So one day, but he doesn't need to come and
(35:28):
rescue me anymore because I did that myself. He just
needs to come and and you know, contribute to my
life exactly, be a partner, and and we can travel
and I'm not gonna have kids, so that's out of
the you know, the story. But again, hopefully I I
don't give up. I think that one day that truly
will happen. I believe the universe is going to send
(35:50):
me someone after I get better and stronger on my
own and know that it's me that's that's strong, right,
Casey Yeah, I mean thank you for just your words
and sharing everything and um, wow, you're an incredible human being. Yeah,
these guys are wonderful. Where can I Where can our
(36:10):
listeners you know, find you and and you know reach out.
I'm on Instagram, so Casey Hammer twenty one and then um,
I'm on TikTok Casey Hammer zero, I think, um, and
I'm on Facebook and also um, yeah, like again I
read the d M s Um, I appreciate all the
(36:31):
love and support. Um, it's still yeah, it's it's it's
it's it's hard to put in rewards how grateful I am.
But again it's it's. Um, it's just embracing the journey.
And and I don't know where it's going to lead,
but I'm hoping that I can continue to, you know,
speak out for victims and survivors and really open up
(36:55):
the conversation. So you guys have helped this because I
know that your podcast reaches a lot to people and
I appreciate you for inviting me on. Well, we go
back with thirteen year old Casey and we bring her
straight up to and tell her love her and she's
brilliant and beautiful. She's so honored to amend that it's
a part of your story. Um, Casey, thank you so
(37:16):
much for coming on. We'd love to have you on again,
so hopefully we can chat in the future. Okay, and
thank you so much, you guys. I so appreciate you.
Appreciate thank you. By oh man, that's just like she's beautiful.
She's so beautiful, and it's just I'm just I'm glad
(37:36):
that she freed herself from the trap and from the
you know, like she's allowing herself to still feel love.
Like what a beautiful thing like that. She's like I still,
you know, still a hopeless romantic, even after the freaking
history and the pain and the abuse and like that,
she's still like she's still kicking it, you know, and
(37:58):
like I know, it's very to me. I'm like, man,
like you could be like on the I'm going to
remind you what she said if you ever go into
a dark hole again. But yeah, I mean she's just
like everybody else, though she's still triggered by the mean
d m s, you know, as brave as she's been.
You know, I think everyone needs to know that people
get triggered by that, you know. I mean, people need
(38:18):
to know that we're people. I mean, like, her story
is crazy and people are still just going to give
her hate. You know. I hate that for her because
she's been so brave and stood up for so many people.
The hate thing just drives me crazy. And that's like again,
when I reached out to the one girl in the docuseries,
I was like, the most hate comes from women, and
that part will always forever blow my mind. Why we
(38:40):
can't just like support other women and why hate? Why
why are we hating on other women? You don't know
what someone's been through, what they're going through, um, what
they went through. And it's like that part just like
really just like makes me sad that, like people are
just so hurtful and so mean and just like either
(39:01):
want to compare or want to be nasty, you want
to be like why would like how could you do? Why?
It's like you don't know someone's you know, history, someone's
just just don't know. It's like yourself right to yourself
because it's just projecting. Yes, it's it's do the work
join the rest of us, right, but I can. I'll
give you a code. She's got a therapist code to
(39:23):
but really, do you know what I posted something? Darn man,
I posted like something about therapy. Just again, I like
to just try to help other people, you know, after
I sit with it for a little bit, help someone
else know that. Like people were all just in seasons
and like they're just like, oh, her therapist went back
to elementary school with the chalk because she's just thrown
(39:45):
up her hands not to do, not sure what to
do with Joanna, And I'm like, man's like all in
her child you had. I'm sorry, but it's fine. They'll
bleep it. But it's like it's just like man, like
I find something, It's like it's I just it just
makes me so now I'm like I just want to
like now I'm just going to rand people's d ms
(40:07):
and just saying just niceness, like like just being kind
because as I'm like, why should get their address and
Amazon Primum some sidewalk chalk they hide behind their computers.
But anyways, I um casey is very strong all like that.
The whole documentary. Um Watch, it's on Believe, it's on
Discovery plus House of Hammer, and it's it's sad to say.
(40:32):
And you know, and I hope, I hope Army can
get the Helpy he you know, is is I hope?
I mean, I do believe people can change. I I
do do personally. Um, that is going to be a
lot of I mean, that is some dark, deep, deep stuff,
But I mean I do believe people can change, and
I do believe, you know, and I kind of love
(40:54):
the fact that Robert Downey is you know, I think
he'd either paid for his rehab or something, because it's like,
you know, he knows what it's like to be canceled
and written off as a human. And I don't think
I personally just don't think people should be written off
as humans. And it's like it's in church, like you
know our pastor does you know, um it was in bars?
Uh yeah, church and bars or whatever. It's like, you know,
(41:18):
people can do some awful, terrible things, but like I
still believe people deserve a chance to change and do better.
Absolutely I agree, and a little grace along the way.
That's a lot of grace sometimes. Well, I mean, so
you know, it's hard like someone that I'm less a child.
I don't think like you you could, you're dead to me.
So there's certain things where I'm like, you know, how
(41:42):
much of a hypocritem I then to say that they
who I don't know, his his past, you know what
that person might have done to who? You know, it's
a bit like, well, that's why I think it's people
like he's great for somebody like Casey, because it's you're
so easily canceled now. I mean, I know what it
feels like. Even I've had my own podcast and I've
been afraid to even talk on there sometimes because I'm like, well,
(42:02):
if I say the wrong thing, it doesn't just affect
my career, affects my husband's career. I don't want to
have to get canceled. Yeah, it's like, but then we're
supposed to all connect. That's why God put us here.
We're supposed to commune and connect and share stories and
be with each other and be in the valleys and
the mountaintops with each other. So it feels like we
are just so quick to just end everything. Yeah, well,
(42:28):
let's be nice slide into someone's dams and say something nice.
To be nice to my best friend, you put whatever
you're the means of them all they say anything. All right, guys,
we'll see you next week and bye.
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart radio podcast. Okay,
I don't even know, Okay, okay, Army Hammer. HM. There's
a thing called the House of Hammer out right now.
(00:23):
We have Casey Hammer, who is the aunt of Army Hammer,
who did the show, wrote the book. We're going to
have her on and I have I know, Kristen Catherine
have also we've dived into the House of Hammer uh series,
and it is It's wild. I mean, I texted you
(00:48):
at when I am and I was like, you did
this to me, Kramer, because this isn't something I gravitate towards.
Can I just tell you though a story about Army Hammer, please?
I hope this goes where I've prayed it goes. Speaking
of answered, first, let's do that, because I was like,
this guy is a guy we we would swipe on,
(01:08):
you would swipe on him. We're gonna get to the
We're gonna get tall of it. But okay, this is juicy.
Well it's not really, it's not really juicy, but it's
so Army and I did a movie together, like, I mean, hey,
back in the day, I mean way back in the day. Actually,
(01:29):
let me just pull it up right now, because I'm
gonna am. I honestly saw him and I was like,
this is an available bachelor, Like I thought, this is
someone you would think is attractive me. Yeah, America, tell
me you've done too many movies. Without telling me you've
done too many movies. No, No, I'm trying. No, Hong,
It's like, well, let me just go to the movie.
So it was called spring Breakdown and everyone a movie
(01:55):
with Amy Poehler. I'm sorry, have we met and Kristin
Cavalier uh sacer posing here which we had a conversation
in which we can talk about that in our time,
you and Kristen. Ok, let's just let's just stay on.
But it's a very We're going to get a drink. Um. Okay.
(02:16):
So Armie Hammer was Abercrombie boy in Spring Breakdown. Now
I had like a real talking part in this. Um
I didn't. But we're here, we're gonna break it down.
This is this is just and I'm like, literally, I'm
I'm laughing at myself right now. I was seven, number two.
I didn't even have a name either. So but we
(02:38):
were like, but you talked and he was on a
bag or what I'm and so all I remember is
this but we we still had like it was like
so like Kristen was Kristen was seven number three. I
was seven number two, and then um Sophie Monk was
like we were her like little groupies. So like I
(02:58):
would be like like one of my life just like
I can't even read, like you know, Like it was
just like I was one of those girls and the
award goes to ye. So but like Army was on
the show and he like, yeah, there, I am right
there and there wow. So Army like tried to hit
(03:19):
on me, and I was like in my mind, I
was like he's, you know, like ever cramby boy and
he's ever crampy boy like you know, and I was
just like not there with it. So then my friend
Caitlin Crosby was like this is like a couple of
years later, she's like Army. It was just like she's
the most beautiful woman I ever saw, Like, oh my god,
(03:40):
I had the biggest crush on her, Like I tried
to ask her out and so I was like, well
like oh no, oh no no, because honestly, as I
was watching it, I was thinking, and I'm not joking
a I was like this is someone you would be
attracted to and A. And then also I thought he
(04:02):
would be so attracted to you because the women on here,
I mean, the women he's attracted to our stunning. Well
you're very sweet. But I was like, grammar would fit
in this quite well. Well, so I was like, well, yeah,
I'm like like, okay, hook it up right. Well he
had just started dating his wife or whatever, so I
was just like, Okay, he's dating someone. But I was
(04:22):
always like, damn it, the one that got away. Okay,
so let me you're the one that got away. But
here's where I want to break it down. Okay, so
and I will say too. So I watched the documentary
and I actually ended up speaking. I'm not going to
name her name. She was one of the girls on
the documentary, and I reached out to her. I d
(04:43):
m her and I said to her because there was
I know that she's gotten some hate and because he
was technically married at the time, But I'm like, what
these men tell these women that they pray on. Like again,
I am remember calling one of the multiple affair girls
and they're like, wait, your husband was married, and I'm
(05:05):
like yeah, and I've got a kid so like these
girls don't know Like when she's like he called me
in the thing, She's like he called me all the time.
He was texting all the time. Like it's like and
I want you to know that, Like I get it.
And like also like I understand like the being like
prayed and like the you know, he's army hammer and
you're like wanting to be you know, this is like
(05:28):
wild and you're in this world and like you're you're
like I could tell that her testimony was very authentic,
and I just wanted to like for as many probably
hateful things as she was, Like I wanted to just
be like someone that's just like hey, I I like
I saw you, I heard you, and like you know,
get off the blocks, you know what I mean, don't read,
don't read. But like the like he wanted to cook
(05:52):
these one girl's ribs, Like he wanted to take out
these girls ribs and cook them. Like it goes me
on like fantasy stuff, right, like it goes like past
like this, I don't even know the BDS, Like I
was b it's b D S M sex. But like
what that girl was even saying, you know, they had
(06:14):
like the psychiatrist on there like, yeah, that that goes
like even beyond like what this is, Like they had
an expert come on, and she was like that's a
consensual thing, Like that's something both people are agreeing to.
She was like, this is a person abusing essentially under
this like disguise of it being B D S M right.
(06:35):
And I had this I'm not going to obviously name
his name, but when I was I had this guy
that I dated that was like way older than me
and I was younger. And it's scary when you know,
when when the younger girls and the older guys, because
a lot of these girls were super young. Like I
remember this dude that I was with, he was like,
this is my fantasy in my mind. I'm like, well,
(06:56):
I don't want this to be the fantasy, Like I
don't want to do this, you know what. I want
to please this person, you know, because he loves me
and I love them, and like but then I remember
one day we had showed up at one of his
fantasies and I was like, oh my god, like this
isn't actually what. I just played along with it, thinking
(07:18):
like it wasn't going to actually happen. You didn't actually
want to eat my ribs is what I thought, right,
And I'm like, so I'm at this like I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna go into like told detail, but
I just started crying and he got so angry with me,
and I'm like, but I didn't think this was like
a real and these like girls, it's like I'm like
watching them, like, oh my god, it's like they're just
you know, they're again they're playing along with this like
fantasy and like, yeah, okay, it's kind of like cute
(07:39):
and kinky whatever, but then he just takes it to
like this, it was abusive, so abusive, and then also
like that's which is so scary because I'm like, but
like that kind of like like that one with that one,
like I want to eat you and she's like, you know,
she's like at first it's like okay, that's kind of
kind of cute, but then not knowing like I I
(08:01):
want to bite you. It was like I wanna want
to bite you. I'm gonna and like, you know, I
don't know how kinky people get. But then when you
keep going, it's like but the slate I mean now nowadays,
but in my twenties, I would have been like, okay,
like I don't know. Well, I also just think it's
such a slow chip away. I think people are very
easy to judge. Yes, women, but like that. It's not
(08:22):
like this guy slid into the d m S and
was like, Hey, I want to eat your face off
or hey I want to take your ribs out, or
I want to smash you to the ground. Like it's
a very sneaky slow and listen, you're in it at
that point. So then when you go thirty thousand feet
it starts to you start to go like how did
I even do that? Or how did I entertain that?
(08:43):
Or how did we even get here? But you're already
there at this point where he was like you know
so love bombing love bombing love bombing that you're like,
it's hard to get out of that situation, right, and
you actually don't even know you're in it. So I think, well,
I think that's like because I'm like, I remember like
this one dude that wanted to have this like fantasy
that I'm my mind. I'm like I don't want those,
but like I'm gonna go for because it's just a fantasy.
(09:03):
It's not gonna actually happen. But then when it does happen,
you're like, oh my god, this is not what I
actually wanted, like a board, because you're like, ropes aren't hot. Yeah,
but even if it was a healthy relationship and you
went along with it and then you were like, wait
a minute, this isn't what I want, that person then
should go oh my gosh, okay, so sorry you're not
(09:24):
comfortable with that, let's back off. That's where this connection
is missing. So that's where it's like the fantasy versus reality.
And it sounds like, you know, with him, like his
fantasy has turned into this like dark seated reality. And honestly,
when I was watching it, like it's so sad to see,
like someone who's that um charismatic. Well, no, it's sick,
(09:50):
you know, Like it's like it's really like it's it
was sad to see because I'm like man like, but again,
and I don't know, And this is one another person
that like kind of someone that I had, I will say, uh,
someone that I went on a date with was really
into like fantasy playing, and like I was immediately like nope,
like I like again, I can't be kinky. I can
(10:11):
be like whatever, but when you're when there are things
that are not lining up and you want me to
do X, Y and Z, and your fantasies ain't happening
because your fantasy is. But I'm saying this because I
think he is similar to the Army situation, where it's
like this guy could be with anyone he wants to
be with at any point at any time. Army. He
came from a multi multi, multimillion dollar family. I mean
(10:35):
they were like his grandfather didn't want to be the
great grandfather didn't want to be the president because it
wasn't powerful enough like he could have been. And that's
like what was one of the quotes in there, And
it's like, so it's like, I think people that just
can have anything they want, they don't have the capacity,
like they need more, They need more of a fix
they like because everything else is like, oh, just to
have sex with a random girl, like how boring? Is up?
(10:58):
Another hot girl, another hot girl, but let me let
me throw in this fantasy of what I really want
to do. It's because they're so numb and the need
for dominance is underlying in all of those fantasies well
and in the generation too, which is like wild from
like the great grandfather to his dad, like and oh god,
we have this aunt in the waiting room, so let's
just get her on. Hi. Oh my goodness, it's so
(11:37):
good just to see. I've I've been watching you. I
mean I was knee deep in the screeners and watch
all the episodes and I just and like to have
you here. I'm just thank you so much for joining
Wine Down and and being a part of the show.
Oh my god, it's my pleasure. I was so honored
when you wanted me to be on. I was like, yeah, okay.
(11:57):
I first just want to, um say, you know, you
shared a lot of hard truth on on you know,
House of Hammer, and UM, I'm sure you're going to
be helping so many people too from the things that
you've said, you know, just about sexual abuse that you encountered,
and you know, just all the things that you've gone
(12:19):
through in your life. And I just just thank you
for being open, vulnerable, and I just I just want
to kind of affirm you for that because I can't
imagine how hard that was for you to do. Thanks it, Um,
it continues to be hard. It's it's a struggle, it's
it's one thing to UM live it because it's my normal.
So it's what I experienced, so I'm used to it, right,
(12:39):
everything I grew up. But again it's it's UM shining
a light on multigenerational abuse in my family and holding
them accountable. It's kind of sixty two years later, I
sit here before you and it's like, all right, it's
finally coming to the spotlight. And UM, it's been an
(13:00):
interesting journey because again, seven eight years ago, I self
published Surviving My Birthright, which was, as you probably know,
it's a healing journal in a sense where you're writing
and you're affirming what's happening to you, and and then
when you're able to actually hold the book right, it
was UM validating to know that it was real right,
(13:21):
And again I controlled the narrative, and so then I
was living a very quiet life down in San Diego.
And last year I was a kitchen designer at the
Home Depot and one of my co workers were like, Casey,
you better get on social media. Someone by the name
of this in Blonde is blowing up your life. And
I just remember you, guys, I was watching it live
(13:41):
as she Li've read my book, UM found it live
read it and I was like, my life has completely changed,
just like it's so out of control, like being on
a roller coaster and you're doing the death drop right
and you throw your hands up, thinking hopefully I stand
in the car right. And so then, um, there the
moment where I think the universe says, here's a situation.
(14:04):
How are you going to deal with it? Because at
that time, to Army was all over social media and
people were reaching out to me wanting a SoundBite once
they found out he had an aunt, right, and so
I could have taken that route and participated. And it
was like, now, if people are going to talk to me,
I want them to listen, and I want to be
(14:24):
an advocate for victims and survivors. And it was kind
of how can I turn this into something greater in
a sense of shining a light on abuse, because it's
not just physical abuse that you see. There's mental abuse.
There's emotional abuse, and it's so deep rooted that you
get triggered all the time and you don't know what's
(14:45):
happening and you know you're meant to be isolated and
self blame and self hatred and all those things. And
what I'm finding is if people say to me, I
can see a part of my story in your story,
because again and a lot of people will say my
family wasn't as wealthy as yours or dysfunctional. But when
(15:07):
there's a butt, it's very important to spend a moment
and really listen because that's people need to be heard.
And I'm hoping that this long winded version of how
it all kind of happened. And that's how the producers
found me. They they had read my book and said
they wanted to tell my story. Um, and I really
(15:28):
believe they were going to take care of it. And
then seeing the House of Hammer and the end result,
I mean again spotlighting those brave women who came forward
because nowadays with social media, it's so hard and hateful
and and just I take my hat off to them
and everyone else that coroborated my story because I've been
(15:49):
telling this story for a very long time, but now
people are starting to pay attention. You said too in
the docuseries. Really they're going to kill me? Sorry I laugh? No,
No I didn't. I um, but like where was it,
(16:12):
like what was it in you to be like okay,
like I have to do whether whether they kill me
or not. Like it's just like, what was your kind
of like final like breaking point to be able to
share and not have that like obviously you still I
don't know, do you still have fear or that they're
you know, like have you talked to Michael or any
of those people. I mean, you see in the House
of Hammer the third episode. It kind of answers a
(16:34):
lot of the questions. Um, my whole life, I was threatened,
and you know, again behind closed doors it was awful,
and yet once you stepped out the front door, you
had an image, and my grandfather controlled the narrative, so
we were threatened all the time, and like, yeah, your
grandfather was like watching people like that you would like
date or talked to. I was like, whoa, there were
(16:55):
pictures of the inside of my apartments that there was
no way they ever came to. So it was just
very creepy. But again it was my normal. You know,
if you're going to be my friend or I'm gonna
date you, you're gonna be under surveillance and be recorded,
and you know, you pick up the phone and you'd
hear a click and you and I just became such
a smarter you know, it's like high Grandpa, are you listening,
you know, because it's kind of you have to find
(17:17):
humor and a way to deal with it because back
then there was no social media, so you couldn't necessarily
google how to rich people behave right, you just thought,
it's my home, it's my parents. They're gonna keep me safe,
no one's gonna hurt me. And yet in my book,
I go into a lot more detail about, you know,
(17:38):
how I was abused or how I was treated it.
And what's interesting is people see in the house of hammer,
you know, in a eleven year old holding a phone
book while their father shot at them. It's that there
was normal activity in my house. So again it's horrific
to a lot of people. But I just thought he
(17:58):
would never hurt me, or my mom would never hurt me.
And and it's just one of those things where again
I didn't choose this, like I didn't go looking for
this to happen. Um, I was kind of at peace
with where my life was in San Diego and kind
of accepted it. So again I knew there's a reason
(18:18):
I'm still here, like I shouldn't be right. There were
so many times I didn't want to be here, and
I self medicated and did bad things. But I'm a
year and a half no medication and sitting in my
emotions and like, it's a journey, it's a wild ride.
And I'm here to also tell people that you know,
you can't do it alone and you can find people
(18:40):
that will help you. I mean, I learned about therapists
and sliding scales. As crazy as that sounds, it's like, oh,
you know, but again, people will accept they won't to
help you. And and it's so weird for me to
be able to say, okay, right, it's kind of like, no, no,
I'm sorry. It's just it's it's the whole. Yeah, it's
weird right now, but it's good. I mean, I'm still breathing.
(19:03):
I do a lot of yoga, I do I meditate
a lot. Um do you still do you still talk
to any of the family members? UM? Up until about
fifteen years ago when my mom passed away, UM, she
kind of kept the fake family glue together and we
all spent a week on her deathbed and we all
had to kind of be in the same room and exists.
(19:24):
So after that we all went our separate ways and
um again, I was pretty much erased from the family,
and it's um something I've dealt with, you know, to
be part of the Army to Hammer family and yet
not have the benefits of the perks in a sense
and kind of come to grips with what's my bigger
(19:46):
purpose for being here? Why am I here? And literally,
you know last year when the zen Blonde did that,
I had that Aha moment where I can really do
some good and if nothing else, shine a light on
starting a conversation for a safe space for people to
come forward, for consent, for accountability, and for advocating for
(20:07):
victims and survivors. And that's kind of what I don't
know what tomorrow is going to bring, but right now
it's like, even if it's talking on podcasts or Ted
Talks or writing another book, at least it's it's out
there now and I'm not going to stop. I'm curious
like knowing and watching to like knowing the men in
(20:29):
your family. Obviously Army is in believe he's done some rehabs.
Whatever do you do you think that like he can change?
I mean just knowing again, like the history of of
the men in your family. Speaking from experience and how
I grew up. My father was in and out of
(20:50):
mental institutions my whole life and went to you know,
rehab a million times at my grandfather's requests, so it
was never his choice and he never got well, ever healed.
So for me, I believe that until a person takes
accountability and makes amends for what they've done and chooses
(21:11):
to heal, it's just for image. And again, my family,
it was all about image. So when my mom left
the house, her cigarettes were died to match her clothes.
I mean, that's how perfect we had to be. It
was crazy. It was really messed up, but again that's
that's what I'm used to. So I was told, I mean,
women in the Hammer family were disposable. We were ornaments
(21:32):
in the sense. And I was told, as long as
you know, Casey, you look pretty and you say the
right thing and don't embarrass us, you'll be taking care
of the rest of your life. And that's pretty much.
The men ruled the and my father was an only child,
so it wasn't like it's a big family. I mean,
there's my brother who's still alive, and then Army and
his brother Victor, who were still alive and that's it.
(21:54):
That's all that's slept. I don't remember hearing anything about Victor.
Is he still, like was he involved in that? Because
I'm like Victor and Melissa, we didn't hear anything of
her From Melissa, I don't UM. I haven't been in
contact with them since my mom passed. UM, And I'm
not sure where he's at and what's happening right now. Um.
(22:18):
You know, last I heard the people were in l
A or the Cayman Islands. It's it's still I kind
of get my info probably how you guys do on
you know, social media and and things like that. But yeah,
we kind of keep our distance right now because too,
if I live my life afraid, I'm not stupid either
because I go outside and I know they're you know,
(22:40):
I need to be careful. But again, if I let
fear control me, then they take my power. And I
won't give up my power ever again. So if I
can make it through today and maybe change and help
a few people right with my story, and it's good,
it's it's a good day. So one of the things
you said in an interview that it really resonated with
(23:01):
me was it was part of a longer quote, but
you said something that just really it just sat inside
of me for a minute. Was power is the drug
M And I was like, well, I just I mean,
I couldn't even digest that enough. It was just so
short inside of that sentence, but it made it just
fit for them, especially in house of camera. It's kind
(23:26):
of like, how how whatever reason you guys tune in
to watch, or people watch, either for army or entertainment
or just curiosity, by the time you're finished, you're gonna
see a darker, multi generational abuse of power. And I
think that's starting. I think it started before my grandfather,
but unfortunately we only had three hours to tell this story,
(23:48):
and there's so much more that can be told. Um,
but my grandfather you saw, you know, President Kennedy on
the phone, all the President's royalty, I mean, you know,
now King Charles. I mean, there was like all these
people that were in our circle all the time, and
it was interesting to watch him control everybody. He recorded people,
(24:09):
he blackmailed people, and that's how he ran the family also,
and so did my father and brother. I mean, they
all participated and that's how they saw it. And it's
funny too because like my father, you know, killed someone, um,
and my grandfather covered it up and said it was
self defense, and my mother was like, no, he did
it in front of me, pulled out a gun and
(24:29):
shop the guy. You know. So it's like you saw
not only a crime committed, but you saw them make
it go away. I mean, everybody could be bought, Everyone
had a price, so you didn't want to screw up,
like because you saw the ramifications of what my grandfather
picking up the phone could do. And again, it's it's
it's really scary and frightening when you think about it,
(24:52):
especially like you know, when you think about, like again,
people in power, and it's like, yeah, you know, I'm
like I wonder how many people this person is killed
or this, you know, because they have that position of power.
And it's like, oh, one thing that I thought that
(25:19):
this that they did really well. And I want to
know if you kind of agree, is I feel like
a lot of times in our world, when we dive
into a story of one person, we stop at one
person and so like or we maybe go like one
generation over or whatever. But like to see this and
I thought like even the way that they did, the
(25:39):
visual of just showing us the family tree back and
forth and from Army all the way back to your
great grandfather, right, no, your grandfather. Yeah. Um. I just
thought what was really eye opening and what people need
to see more of is that cycle breakers like yourself
are rare, brave, rare, powerful humans. That's what you are,
(26:01):
a brave, rare, powerful human. But we don't see how
it just keeps getting passed down, Like we just we
keep dealing with what's in front of us. But what's
in front of us isn't the whole truth, And what's
in front of us isn't generational usually is it's there's
so much generational behind everything that we're not even giving
the attention or power love to to try to even
(26:22):
figure out where this came from. Like Army came from
somewhere he saw too much. Right, It's not something that
you wake up and become a monster. It's something it's
a learned behavior. So it's kind of this control um
and again, the power to be able to not only
commit a crime, but to make it go away and disappear.
I mean that's huge, right um. And it's it's something
(26:46):
that you know, again, when I used to talk about
this about my family, people would automatically assume, oh, you
must have done something wrong because your family is like
wonderful on the outside. Well, yeah, it's all about image.
I mean my brother, my father, my even my grandfather,
even Army would walk into a room and they're this,
(27:06):
you know, six foot two three four, good looking, personable.
Like I used to always make a joke that they
could all be politicians because you really buy into their image.
So people love them. So if if something's not sitting right,
it was your fault. So a lot of the response
I've gotten from the docuseries, from my friends or people
(27:29):
I've grown up with is I had no idea, and
it's kind of like I tried to tell you, but
you wouldn't listen. So now I think what opened up
the door and all honesty is the me too movement
right brought attention on workplace environment, So I say there
should be me too about home too, Because just because
your parents give birth to you right and say they
(27:52):
love you, it doesn't mean they can do anything they
want to you or put you in harm's way. It's
just it's not okay and it needs to stop. Um
And again, it's one person talking another person talking and
another person and letting them know it's okay to come forward.
I mean, in the Doctor series, you seek consent is
a huge topic because it's such a gray area. It's like,
(28:14):
I'm not here to judge what you enjoy or what
you don't enjoy. But the minute you say no, I'm
not comfortable. Person needs to stop otherwise it's criminal. I
mean there's a line that's crossed. So again, you can't
just say, oh, well, she was really into it, and
you know it's her fault. She didn't live no, and
that's where we need to really talk about it. I
(28:36):
thought that too. There was a couple of the the
women that he I'm gonna say, I'm gonna just say victims.
So when they spoke, they you could almost tell like
they had been shamed into this place of like why
didn't say no? And they even said it, well I
didn't say no, but I was like, okay, but when
you're running away or you're being dragged down a hallway
(28:57):
and being sexually abused, that's what that is sexual abuse
at that point, and you could just I hated it
because I watched them both say, two of them, at
least that I can remember say, well, you know, I
didn't say no. It was like as if as if
it's it's it's okay, or it's you're their fault, or
you know that's not the truth, so it's and it's
(29:18):
not okay. And and and again it needs to Um,
the people need to be held accountable. And it's the
people with money and power and fame that get away
with all of it or most of it because they
can cover it up or silence you. I mean, it's
it's fearful that you know you might be followed or threatened.
And we all know that that's going on in a
(29:41):
sense of when you are going to speak out about someone,
especially someone famous, there's probably threats all the time. And
and and again, I really take my hat off to
the victims that came forward because that they still deal with.
I'm sure a lot of hate on social media. I mean, fortunately, Um,
(30:02):
I think the zen blonde who outed me, who were
dear friends now because she realized that she should have
halfway through maybe asked me like, didn't realize what she
was doing right, Um, But again back then in TikTok,
you had sixty seconds. So I laugh at her and
I was like Lauren, you were you know, like caffeinated wrong.
She goes, No, you don't understand. I only had sixty
(30:24):
seconds where now you know you can talk for a while.
I guess, but you know, again there are She went
and blocked a lot of the haters on my DMS
because I take it personally. I mean, I read everything
and it means the world to me when people tell
me their story or they share an experience or even
just say thank you. I mean, but then you see
(30:44):
that one person um that maybe says bad things, and
it just triggers all that you're working so hard to
get through in your life and deal with. I get triggered,
and it's like you go into this death spiral I
call it, you know, down the rabbit hole of just
like going back to being thirteen years old or eleven
years old or twelve years old, and it's like, I
(31:05):
feel like such a failure that I didn't protect little Casey. Right.
It's like, so you work really hard to try and
go back visually and take her hand and you know,
let's go on a walk or go to the ocean
or something, goofy. I mean literally, it's like there's so
many ways to to try and heal, but it's it's
a constant struggle and people need to know it's not easy. No,
(31:28):
it's it's it's not. But also I want to say
to you too in the you know, thirteen year old Casey,
is you know when your mom was getting hit and
you saw the blood from what your father just did
to her. You know that's something too where it's like
she still brought you in and there's no blame placing
blame on your mom, but it's also like you know
there was you maybe grew up and I'm not trying
(31:50):
to project this just like I'm thinking of like my
past is like then you're thinking like, oh, that's how
it's supposed to be, and that's my worth and that's
what a man should be doing to you, and like
you know, and it's like I'm sure your mom would
probably want to go back and take you out and
never bring you back, you know, but you know, I
don't know how then she was raised her. So it's
like I also know that you know it's um you
(32:14):
you're only thirteen, You didn't know that you you know
how to leave? Could you couldn't leave? The sad thing too,
is that you know That's what I believed in my mind,
that my mom would keep me safe and coming to
grips with on her deathbed, because again, there was all
this abuse going on in the house. And when I
first wrote my book, I had her read it along
(32:35):
with everybody else in the family. Um, when I got triggered,
I think it was in my thirties. I was doing
a b role for victim No More right. It's in
the House of Hammer docuseries and they were like, okay, Ca,
so you're gonna pretend like you're getting you know, raped
in the car or whatever. I was like, okay, cool,
you know, I want to be an actor. So when
(32:55):
that when they started and my hands got held over
my head, all of a sudden something kicked in of
like I'm gonna die, like this is very familiar, and
my body went crazy and I almost killed this guy,
this poor actor, and it was like I was shaking,
and I was and all of a sudden, the floodgates
open and I'm in my thirties and I'm remembering all this,
(33:18):
and I go right to my mom and I'm like,
I must be crazy, right, like I'm remember and she
admitted she knew everything that was happening. So then again
you go, okay, so why didn't you save me? Why
didn't you protect me? And then on her deathbed, and
this is where you can't change people. You cannot. It's
almost like I tried for all these years. I just
(33:40):
wanted her to say I love you, I'm sorry, I
should have protected you, and you know what, that never
came out. So it's that moment where you just feel
broken that no one loves you, and it's but again,
it's that void, and then all of a sudden it
makes sense. It's like, Okay, this is what I'm chasing.
If this is what I need to work on going back,
(34:02):
and you know it's not my fault adublet cases that
I didn't protect little Casey. But it's really hard if
you guys have gone through any abuse, which you know
I'm not, but you know, it's so hard to rewrite
that script and and and kind of love yourself. So
that's what I struggle with. But I'm getting so much better.
(34:23):
But again, it's it's a it's a process. But if
people here that you know, even someone like me raised
in the family like mine, thinking that you know, everything
is perfect and wonderful, I'm really I'm just as messed
up and I struggle, you know, every day. But again,
if I wake up and I have my cats and
you know I can write, it's just yeah, you just
(34:46):
it's it's um, it's a have you been able to
give your heart to someone and be you know, how's
your relationship coming from that? It's Wait, you don't and
you don't super trust me, and that's fascinating to me.
I love you. I mean, now I can look back
(35:07):
at all the men I dated or married, right, and
they're all the epitome of my father and my brother.
I mean, it's like, what what was I thinking? So
I'm the type I'd rather be alone and I don't
do apps or any so yeah, it's like, but I
still believe in the fairytale, you guys, I'm a hopeful romantic.
So one day, but he doesn't need to come and
(35:28):
rescue me anymore because I did that myself. He just
needs to come and and you know, contribute to my
life exactly, be a partner, and and we can travel
and I'm not gonna have kids, so that's out of
the you know, the story. But again, hopefully I I
don't give up. I think that one day that truly
will happen. I believe the universe is going to send
(35:50):
me someone after I get better and stronger on my
own and know that it's me that's that's strong, right,
Casey Yeah, I mean thank you for just your words
and sharing everything and um, wow, you're an incredible human being. Yeah,
these guys are wonderful. Where can I Where can our
(36:10):
listeners you know, find you and and you know reach out.
I'm on Instagram, so Casey Hammer twenty one and then um,
I'm on TikTok Casey Hammer zero, I think, um, and
I'm on Facebook and also um, yeah, like again I
read the d M s Um, I appreciate all the
(36:31):
love and support. Um, it's still yeah, it's it's it's
it's it's hard to put in rewards how grateful I am.
But again it's it's. Um, it's just embracing the journey.
And and I don't know where it's going to lead,
but I'm hoping that I can continue to, you know,
speak out for victims and survivors and really open up
(36:55):
the conversation. So you guys have helped this because I
know that your podcast reaches a lot to people and
I appreciate you for inviting me on. Well, we go
back with thirteen year old Casey and we bring her
straight up to and tell her love her and she's
brilliant and beautiful. She's so honored to amend that it's
a part of your story. Um, Casey, thank you so
(37:16):
much for coming on. We'd love to have you on again,
so hopefully we can chat in the future. Okay, and
thank you so much, you guys. I so appreciate you.
Appreciate thank you. By oh man, that's just like she's beautiful.
She's so beautiful, and it's just I'm just I'm glad
(37:36):
that she freed herself from the trap and from the
you know, like she's allowing herself to still feel love.
Like what a beautiful thing like that. She's like I still,
you know, still a hopeless romantic, even after the freaking
history and the pain and the abuse and like that,
she's still like she's still kicking it, you know, and
(37:58):
like I know, it's very to me. I'm like, man,
like you could be like on the I'm going to
remind you what she said if you ever go into
a dark hole again. But yeah, I mean she's just
like everybody else, though she's still triggered by the mean
d m s, you know, as brave as she's been.
You know, I think everyone needs to know that people
get triggered by that, you know. I mean, people need
(38:18):
to know that we're people. I mean, like, her story
is crazy and people are still just going to give
her hate. You know. I hate that for her because
she's been so brave and stood up for so many people.
The hate thing just drives me crazy. And that's like again,
when I reached out to the one girl in the docuseries,
I was like, the most hate comes from women, and
that part will always forever blow my mind. Why we
(38:40):
can't just like support other women and why hate? Why
why are we hating on other women? You don't know
what someone's been through, what they're going through, um, what
they went through. And it's like that part just like
really just like makes me sad that, like people are
just so hurtful and so mean and just like either
(39:01):
want to compare or want to be nasty, you want
to be like why would like how could you do? Why?
It's like you don't know someone's you know, history, someone's
just just don't know. It's like yourself right to yourself
because it's just projecting. Yes, it's it's do the work
join the rest of us, right, but I can. I'll
give you a code. She's got a therapist code to
(39:23):
but really, do you know what I posted something? Darn man,
I posted like something about therapy. Just again, I like
to just try to help other people, you know, after
I sit with it for a little bit, help someone
else know that. Like people were all just in seasons
and like they're just like, oh, her therapist went back
to elementary school with the chalk because she's just thrown
(39:45):
up her hands not to do, not sure what to
do with Joanna, And I'm like, man's like all in
her child you had. I'm sorry, but it's fine. They'll
bleep it. But it's like it's just like man, like
I find something, It's like it's I just it just
makes me so now I'm like I just want to
like now I'm just going to rand people's d ms
(40:07):
and just saying just niceness, like like just being kind
because as I'm like, why should get their address and
Amazon Primum some sidewalk chalk they hide behind their computers.
But anyways, I um casey is very strong all like that.
The whole documentary. Um Watch, it's on Believe, it's on
Discovery plus House of Hammer, and it's it's sad to say.
(40:32):
And you know, and I hope, I hope Army can
get the Helpy he you know, is is I hope?
I mean, I do believe people can change. I I
do do personally. Um, that is going to be a
lot of I mean, that is some dark, deep, deep stuff,
But I mean I do believe people can change, and
I do believe, you know, and I kind of love
(40:54):
the fact that Robert Downey is you know, I think
he'd either paid for his rehab or something, because it's like,
you know, he knows what it's like to be canceled
and written off as a human. And I don't think
I personally just don't think people should be written off
as humans. And it's like it's in church, like you
know our pastor does you know, um it was in bars?
Uh yeah, church and bars or whatever. It's like, you know,
(41:18):
people can do some awful, terrible things, but like I
still believe people deserve a chance to change and do better.
Absolutely I agree, and a little grace along the way.
That's a lot of grace sometimes. Well, I mean, so
you know, it's hard like someone that I'm less a child.
I don't think like you you could, you're dead to me.
So there's certain things where I'm like, you know, how
(41:42):
much of a hypocritem I then to say that they
who I don't know, his his past, you know what
that person might have done to who? You know, it's
a bit like, well, that's why I think it's people
like he's great for somebody like Casey, because it's you're
so easily canceled now. I mean, I know what it
feels like. Even I've had my own podcast and I've
been afraid to even talk on there sometimes because I'm like, well,
(42:02):
if I say the wrong thing, it doesn't just affect
my career, affects my husband's career. I don't want to
have to get canceled. Yeah, it's like, but then we're
supposed to all connect. That's why God put us here.
We're supposed to commune and connect and share stories and
be with each other and be in the valleys and
the mountaintops with each other. So it feels like we
are just so quick to just end everything. Yeah, well,
(42:28):
let's be nice slide into someone's dams and say something nice.
To be nice to my best friend, you put whatever
you're the means of them all they say anything. All right, guys,
we'll see you next week and bye.
Host
Jana Kramer
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