June 1, 2020 • 52 mins
As tensions run high in protests all over the country, Jana and Mike discuss what they feel while watching everything unfold. The frustration, the anger, the sadness.
They connect with country star Mickey Guyton for an honest and raw conversation about racism and equality in America
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind down and podcast. Okay, so I don't even know
how to start this. There's a lot going on right now. Um.
We actually had something else airing today. Um, but it
(00:24):
was it just didn't feel right to have what we
were going to air today air. It just wasn't relevant.
Well it was thought that it wasn't relevant. It just
it just didn't feel right to you know, because yeah,
so it just was like, so let me just rewind
(00:44):
like ten hours. So I know, we talked about it
the other day Mike, where I said, I obviously with
everything going on with George Floyd and the other events
that had happened this past few months and forever, honestly,
but this is where I just get where I'm like,
(01:06):
it's so hard to even say the right thing. But
I just felt really heavy in the heart, and I
I was talking to you yesterday, but yesterday I'm like,
I don't know, I don't know how to find words
to say what I even want to say. And I
deleted about a thousand different times. I mean all day
(01:31):
I was just on my phone trying to find the
right words. I'm like, no, that won't that, that's not it,
or no, or it's gonna know that's gonna be a
misinterpreted or no, and I just just deleted and I
kept saying. I was like, what can I say that
because I don't know what to say? And so you
had said, couldn't be more generic? Yeah, just general, because
(01:53):
I was shocked that you were getting d m s
of people giving you ship for not saying anything, and
it's it's that frustrated me. So I was just like,
all right, if you're getting flat or not say anything,
just keep it. Yeah general and generic. We're we're all
human beings. Is just treat each other like human beings.
(02:14):
So I said that, but then it still didn't feel right.
Something still felt heavy, and it just didn't feel right.
So I then today at the pool called Mickey because
I've known Mickey guy in for Mickey, how long have
we known each other for through for at least five
six years now? Yeah? Yeah, So I called Mickey because
(02:42):
I just, first of all, I love Mickey. I've loved
her forever. Hey, I wanted to see how she was
doing and be I also want to say I want
to support you, but I don't know how, Like what
am I supposed to say so that you feel supported
and that she feels supported as an ever an American. Yes,
(03:02):
and it makes it makes me sad because I'm like,
I want you to know that I'm like here for you,
but I don't know how. I'm sorry. This isn't about
like I feel stupid and crying, but like it made
me sad because sorry, I feel bad that I don't
know how to support you. And so I called because
I wanted to say, like, I don't even know what
(03:24):
to say because I feel like this, you know, essentially
quote unquote a white privileged little girl, white girl, Like
what can I say to you to make you feel
like I'm here for you? And I've I've seen all
the like I'm here for you. I'm not black, but
I'm here for you. I'm not, but I'm like I
something just still felt disconnected. So I was like, I
just want to call Mickey to be like, what, like
(03:46):
what do I say that you will feel like like
is it even words? Like I don't even have the words,
and so I'm sorry, I don't like it's just like
I don't. I just feel like I'm at a loss
really of what to say that like I can support
like so here Vicky talk. Sorry, no, um there is,
(04:08):
without question, injustice happening in America against black people. And
it's been happening since before we were even a thought
it was. It's been happening since before our parents or
even a thought. This systemic racism is literally in all
(04:32):
of our DNA for things that we may have had
nothing to do with, but it is in. It is
alive and well. Today. Black men are mistreated and disregarded,
and people are they are feared. They can't walk down
(04:54):
a street without everyone holding onto their purse. They can't
walk in a grocery store or any kind of retail
store without checking themselves to make sure that people don't
think that they're stealing. This is so, this is their
(05:16):
life that they live all of the time. All of
the videos that you are seeing of black men getting
killed in the streets by policemen and hated by everybody,
it's been happening. We just now have phones, and we're
armed with phones two broadcast the injustices and the hate
(05:38):
that they're experiencing on a daily basis. And I know
you feel bad. There's a lot of us feeling bad.
We all feel bad. There. If you don't feel bad,
you don't have a heart because this is real. We're
seeing it and we can't deny it anymore. And we're
all so charged because we don't want this to be
(06:03):
that way anymore, and we must remember and and take
a moment to be grateful for that. There is way
more love than there is hate. There are so many
people denouncing and protesting against racism, and I understand. I'm
sure a lot of my white brothers and sisters don't
(06:24):
know what to say. So a lot of times, I'm
sure you've seen we've all seen these killings four years
and I'm sure five six years ago when you were
seeing the murders of a lot of other black men,
I'm sure you thought about I need to post something,
I need to say something, But isn't my place. So
(06:44):
I'm telling everybody it is your place to stand up
and openly denounced racism. Period. And everybody says that all
lives matter, and that is absolutely true, all lives do matter,
but right now, black and brown lives do not matter.
(07:04):
And until black and brown lives really matter, all lives
don't matter. It's that simple, and so you can't say
all lives matter. I see a lot of people saying that,
and It's true all lives matter, but they don't right now.
They don't. Right now, we saw a man get murdered
(07:25):
in calling for his mother. And if people only ever
only knew what I've personally seen. I have seen in
vent Tura County, California, cops come to my home, take
(07:46):
my husband, throw him to the ground, tell him he's
not a lawyer. Tell people that is not our jag
parked in the neighborhood, being the only black people in
that neighborhood. I have seen the injustice myself, and after
seeing that, I would then have to go on a
stage and sing and act like everything's okay. And I
(08:08):
have absolutely saying on a stage and someone has called
me the N word, and I've just acted like it's
okay because that was just the way life is. I
expected that, because that's been the lot of my life
since I was born with this skin. And we're all
(08:33):
awake now, we all see it, and we are upset.
And I know for a fact, and country music, I
have so many good hearted, loving people that are not racist.
But it is not enough to be quietly non racist.
(08:53):
We all have to be openly non racist and shame
anybody that fills. Otherwise, if you love Jesus, if you
say that you love Jesus, then you cannot be a racist, period.
And there you have it, well, said Nicky, I ask
(09:17):
you this. Unfortunately, it's like, you know, people that are
are racist, people that are whether a police officers, whether
it's in business, whether it fans at your Shaw show
(09:38):
who disrespect you in that way, whether it's the police
officers that came and grabbed your husband, those people, if
their actions are showing that they're there, you know, biased
towards certain races and prejudice towards certain races. M with
(10:02):
all of the rioting, with the protests and everything. And
this may be naive to me to ask to even
stay this might be ignorant on my part, but it's
what's what's the end result? Because people are racist, this
is only fueling their racism. People that that aren't racist,
(10:24):
we're already not racist. So what so the one thing
I will say it does is for people that haven't
had to experience that, For people who are white or
Caucasian or even African American that haven't had to experience
but most likely have witnessed maybe those things. Sure it
(10:45):
awakes society up. That's like, hey, just a reminder, this
ship is still going on, y'all. Like it's not the sixties,
it's you know, two thousand twenty, and it's still going on,
you know, sixty years later or whatever it is, Yes,
six years later. I have a I have a great
example for you. Think of a dog and the sweet, innocent,
(11:09):
loving dog, and imagine punching that dog over and over
and over again, slapping that dog, pushing him around, disregarding him,
not feeding him, not showing him any love. And then
the one time you touch him, all of a sudden,
he bites you back. And what happens to that dog?
(11:32):
Most likely he's going to get put down. So I
do not condone looting and destroying property. I do not
condone it whatsoever. But there are people who have seen
that are and the lowest communities like Corona is affecting
(11:56):
the black community, And as soon as everybody found that out,
it was like the oh, well, why are we even
staying outside right now? So these people, there are way
more people that are trying to peacefully protests, and those
are the ones that you need to pay attention to.
Those are the ones that truly want justice, and yeah,
(12:23):
for sure. And it's just it just sucks because it's
this is only these kind of when it gets to
the looting and rioting, it only segregates us even more.
It only separates us even more because again, your your people.
The people that are doing it in an inappropriate manner,
whether they're African, American, white has been, whoever it is,
(12:44):
are just fueling racism and segregation. So and you can say,
I'm going to have to interject before you keep talking
because it doesn't sound good. Looting and writing has been
learned from the slave days. This is historically what we
have seen people due to black people. If you really
(13:08):
study black history, which I have, think about all those lynchings,
think about all those people laughing and not even considering
people as human. We learned that from white people. That
(13:30):
it's history. This is four hundred years of oppression. And
by the way, this is supposed to be a you know,
this is to gain knowledge and to gain you know,
there's I have some questions to you that some podcasts
listeners want us to answer to. And this is just
too because you know, yeah, this is just like gaining knowledge.
(13:51):
So I don't want you to like because this is
just that uncomfortable situation, or we don't even know, Like
I just didn't want to be like no, I I
think like I want you to knowledge, give us knowledge,
because you know we sit here in our we don't
we didn't, we didn't have the same battles and struggles.
(14:11):
And you have to think about it. But when we're
high school and in college, we only learn the small
little pieces of black history. It's almost glossed over. You know.
It's like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X Rosa Parks, you know,
the civil civil rights movement, but you don't really dig
(14:34):
into to what actually happened to some of these people.
There were slaves, pregnant women that were raped, beaten, had
their babies cut out of their stomachs, and we had
to watch their baby get stumped on. That is in
history books. But you could say the same thing for
(14:56):
like the Jewish culture, right, yeah, but why isn't the
Jewish culture they have just as many, if not, you know,
reasons to feel oppressed. Maybe not so maybe not so
much in America. But it's look at their skin color
though that doesn't matter, That didn't matter when they were
(15:19):
going through what they're going through. It didn't matter their religion,
was there was their skin color essentially. Yeah, so it's
just I guess what's unfortunate, and I'm not obviously I
respect everything you're saying. My only and my the pessimism
in my mind is just thinking, well, ship, when does
(15:39):
this end? If it's about being oppressed for four years
and this ship is still going on, when will it
ever end? Will it ever? Yeah, that's a great question.
I don't know. I don't know either. And the way
that the way things are going, it doesn't ask anybody
around the world, even Jewish people. Essentially, I'm gonna ask you,
(16:05):
would you want to grow up in the world as
a black person? Would you want to I'm trying to
choose my words because I don't want to minimize what
the black culture does have to go through. Like our
child does not have to worry about playing with a
(16:26):
toy gun. Ja's does not have to worry about a
toy gun. And that's where it gets me as a
mom to be like, Okay, that's where I kind of
that's I mean, that's not kind of. That's where I
get it. Where it's like Jason can run around with
a toy gun, without someone shooting at him. Right. But
to answer your question, no, I wouldn't have a problem
(16:47):
with it. But again, the grass is the grass may
seem greener, right, So I can't say because I haven't
experienced it. I'm sure there's African Americans who haven't experienced
any of that. Yeah, maybe their parents have, but I
get you. I bet you there's kids that maybe haven't.
Are you saying that's not you're telling me there's not
one African American that hasn't that has gone through life
(17:10):
and hasn't experienced, you know, having living without having experienced racially.
Your best friend is Jason, He's an African American. Has
have you ever asked him that question? And by the way,
I'm just like, yeah, I mean, we haven't talked about
it in a long time, but I haven't He's never
expressed any of that to me. But I mean, so again,
(17:34):
I'm just saying that playing the odds, I'm sure there's
there's somebody out there that hasn't been subjected to nicky
you're saying there, you know, honestly, it's this conversation is
very heavy for me, and to hear someone say that,
I highly doubt that all black people haven't experienced some
(17:56):
form of racism or oppression. It's just a numbers game.
It's not a racial games in numbers game. I'm going
to have to get off of this call. You cannot
say those things. You cannot Where am I saying this disrespectful?
All I'm saying is that there's a there's a possibility.
Is there a possibility? You know what? I got that,
(18:19):
I got it, I've figured it out. I don't approve
this at all. I don't approve this. Um I I
(18:43):
talked to Mickey, UM well, I think what really hurt
her is when you said you can't say I highly
doubt all black people have experienced racism and expect me
to want to sit there for that. Yeah, And I mean,
I know, I think I even saw the look on
your entries face where you guys are both kind of
(19:05):
like wide eyed after I said that, and I've I've
up there that was that was wrong and which you know,
we're kind of talking off the mic for a minute,
which is kind of the whole problem with all of
(19:26):
this these days. Is someone like me who has the
purest of hearts not an ounce of racism in my body,
and I mean, Janna, you know me like you know
my heart, you know, like there's none of that inside
of me. I was the minority in my profession and
the sport I played for of my life. So it
(19:54):
just goes to show that even when someone's intentions are pure,
that doesn't mean what they're saying is is sensitive or
empathetic towards someone else. Because what how I said that
kind of negating Nikki's answer to my question was ignorant.
(20:22):
It was, And I wish I could take that back
and say that differently, because that's not my place to say. Two,
(20:44):
you know, have an opinion around that, That's not my place.
I'm a white male. Who am I to say that
or think that there's possibly one African American out there
that hasn't firsthand hm M experienced racism. That's unfair to
me to say, and that's ignorant of me to say.
(21:07):
But again, just to reiterate, this just goes to show
how even someone like me, who has the purest of intentions,
who was just trying to have a conversation with Mickey
about all of this, how things can just go wrong
in an instance. So, I you know, this is this
(21:34):
is hard times and I just I feel bad, like
you said at the top of the show, I feel
bad that you don't know what to do or don't
know what to say to support the people you know
(21:54):
and love that are on the other side of this
because we haven't had to experience it. Yeah, and that
sucks that they have had to. All Right, well, let's
take a break and then um, I'm gonna see if
we can try to get Mickey back on the show. Mickey,
(22:29):
thanks for coming back. And and this is her husband's grant.
And I you know, when just now Jane and I
were recording, and I acknowledge the fact that the manner
(22:50):
in which I asked the question wasn't sensitive to the issue,
and I get that the the real insult was the
fact that I questioned your response that I said, I
I highly doubt that, And that just goes to show
(23:11):
my insensitivity to the situation. And I'm deeply sorry for that.
And what we're talking about is someone like me who
has the purest of intentions, who doesn't have an ounce
of racism racism in me, how ignorant I can still
(23:35):
be due to my lack of sensitivity. And I genuinely
and sincerely apologize for that. I hope you can hear
me from a good place that I'm at no disrespect
that I was wrong, completely wrong in the manner in
which I handled that, and I am truly, truly sorry,
(23:58):
as your friend m for saying it the way that
I did, for responding the way that I did. Racism
is something that you cannot play with. It is so
embedded and all events, and when you discount someone's experiences
(24:25):
that is mentally and emotionally damaging. Yeah, and I've worked
on a lot of myself for a long time, and
(24:47):
when you saying those things, you can take the one
too a really dark space, So that is irresponsible. This
is my husband, Grant's black, and I've seen people be
horrible to him for how he looks. I've seen it,
(25:11):
and he's not even as dark as I am. And
there are people that are darker than me. And when
you're doing that, it's harmful. It is so harmful. It
harmed me, and it took me back to a space
that I haven't been in a long time. I'm trying
(25:38):
to be as honest and open as I possibly can,
and with that, I asked that you hold that and
are gentle with that, I just want to say, like
from for Mike two, Okay, what I kind of what
(25:59):
I told Mickey during the like the break was that
we we debate a lot, and we we we asked questions,
and I think that was our bad for not going
into it with like more empathy. You know. That's that
(26:21):
because because ship the amount of times did I get
people mad at me because I debate situations or I
say things, and it's like and now I can learn
from situations where it's like, maybe I could be more
empathetic with how I ask a question. But in my amount,
I'm like, I'm just debating and I'm just asking a question.
I'm just asking what you know, whereas not knowing maybe
(26:44):
how I could be how I might be hurting someone,
you know. And again I know, Michael, I know your
heart and your attention and I and I'm just I'm like,
I don't and I know Mickey's heart, and I know
her heart and her intentions, and it's I also know
(27:06):
that you're also trying to speak for other people to
go ahead. What you just said brought this up for me,
and I, Uh, what I did was I was just
guilty of doing the biggest thing that I tried to preach,
(27:29):
which is just treated human being, regardless of anything else,
like a human being. And I'm sorry, Mickey, because, like
Janna was saying, being on the show, we do kind
of get in work mode and we're used to asking
questions and asking hard questions. And I pride myself and
asking these questions that maybe stir the pot. But what
(27:50):
I did by doing that was I didn't treat you
like a human being in that moment, and I am
and that bothers the shift out of me. Thank you.
So I'm again, I'm sorry for allowing that. J And
I appreciate what you just said because that registered for
me that I behind this microphone, I got into into work, Mike,
(28:13):
and I wasn't treating you like a like a person.
I'm I'm I'm just sorry. It's just, you know, whatever
it's anything to do with racism or the marginalization of
(28:36):
women and people of color, you have to go in
that with the most intentional intentions you could ever have
in those with those subject matters because it is so serious.
It is so serious. I live it every day like
(29:01):
I'm shaking great. Is there anything that I know You're
you're you're here and you know you're obviously probably heard
stuff during the break. Is there anything that you want
to say that you could talk about with all of this? Um?
I mean I think that, you know, just based on
(29:21):
what you guys are saying. You know, you guys do
this for the show, and I get it, and that's
what the debate is for. And you know, getting the
political discourse back and forth is what creates you know, good,
it's it's what creates the change in the world. The
problem is is when you're dealing with things such as
racism that are embedded so deep into the DNA of people,
(29:44):
you can't really go into it with the mindset of,
you know, we're just gonna debate this issue. You you
play Devil's advocate and I'm gonna play con It's one
of those situations where you really have to go into
it differently and you can only kind a focus on
the cons. There are no pros to racism, So I
think that's really what I get out of this that
(30:04):
makes that's yeah, that's a great point. But what like
making what I called you earlier? I'm like, what what
can I say? Because I was reading the Instagram comments
that they're saying, well, she hasn't said black lives matter,
she hasn't said this, and so which was what I
was asking. What will make you feel like we are
(30:26):
your ally and we're here for you? And what kild like?
What is that? Because I think that is where I
didn't have the words. I didn't know what to say
for a white woman. Right Well, like I said, completely
denouncing racism like not being around the bush, but saying racism,
it will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated
(30:49):
within my community, within my fan base, it will be
not it will not be tolerated. And black lives do matter.
People have to say black lives matter, because right now
they don't. I'm thirty six years old and I experienced
(31:12):
racism as a child, and it's twenty twenty and racism
is still being experienced. Little girls are experiencing racism. I've
posted a picture, I posted a video and on my
Instagram you can hear this young girl, a young girl,
have a perspective of feeling discriminated against a little girl.
(31:40):
And sorry, my thoughts are so jumbled right now. We
I think admitting that you don't know what because this
issue is so much bigger than any of us can
really wrap our minds around. Admitting that you don't know
how to cure the problem, but your willing to do
(32:00):
whatever it takes, you know, admitting that you don't know
what it feels like to be black and you never will,
but you understand that there is an injustice and you'll
do whatever it takes to bridge that gap. Could I
get that? Totally? Great? But what is that? That's the thing?
Like we're like and I asked, I asked, Biggie Dan
Our phone calls like, how do I teach my daughter?
(32:21):
I'm like, you know, how do I continue to still
those values at her? To to love all colors? It it?
It loves like how am I supposed to? Like what
do I? What do I do? Do I? What do
I say to her? Like? What so that she doesn't
think other things? And nobody is different? Yeah, I think
there's no magic for it. I think it's like Mike said,
(32:44):
everybody is different and it is one on one thing.
And I just think that you know, saying something, whether
it's the right words or not, is better than not
saying anything. Problem. The problem is a lot of people think, oh,
I don't want to say the wrong thing. You know,
it not my fight. I have never experienced racism, so
I'm not going to speak on it, and by not
(33:04):
saying anything, it actually lets the racism win. So whether
you're saying the right thing, saying something anti racism is
really what needs to be said. And it's such an
individualized way. You know, me saying this to you guys
is different than the way you would say to your daughter,
is different than the way I say it to my
you know, my coworkers. It's all very individualized, but it's
(33:27):
voicing that you see there is a problem and you
will not stand for it. And even when you everybody
gets pushed back. I get pushed back all of the
time for standing well women, music and any multiple causes
that I stand for. And nobody's ever going to be satisfied.
(33:48):
But majority people are going to be so excited. I've
gone on your page and I've seen so many people
say thank you. I've seen so many black women post
in people's pages, thank you for standing up, thank you
for saying something. And those are who we are reaching
out to to show people that are racists that they
have no place in this country. Yeah, I mean I
(34:12):
think that and that's why I like the conversation we
had today was at the pool, I was like and
where I felt bad and where I felt sad for
as as a friend, because I'm like, I I genuinely
just didn't know what to say. And I think a
lot of like there's I've seen like things means going
around like uncomfortable. It's like, because I am uncomfortable, I
(34:33):
don't know what that uncomfortability is. I think the comfortability
is that I don't don't know what to say and
what is enough and like to grant what you were
saying is you know, you know, but I like what
is it though? Like what what will like is it
going to the silent or the you know, the peaceful protests?
Is that like or is it just saying because I
(34:54):
don't know, I feel like words are so empty and
that's that's that's that's where I feel like it's false
flat for sometimes because I'm like when I say, like
when I see a big talent that gets destroyed by tornado,
I'm praying for this person, don't pray, donate or do
this or do that. So it's like what I don't
want to just say, like I'm you know, black lives matter.
What can I do? So, what you can do is,
(35:16):
whenever you're shooting, whenever you're hiring people for your team,
think about considering young African American youth and talented young
people to work with you, to work for you. That's
a that's a start because African American people do have
(35:37):
a hard time finding jobs there. They have a hard
time finding space too, to work anywhere. And it's it
would be important for people to see more of that.
Invite more diversity into your world. Let it be genuine,
let it be natural. Not every black person is going
to be your friend, and and that's okay, but find
(36:00):
young individuals that you may not necessarily thought, even young
brown individuals. I think diversifying is a huge thing because
the more you see it, the more normalized it is.
And I think, yeah, yeah, but can I ask a
few questions that were asked or no, like I I respect, like, yeah,
(36:22):
as long as it's not like debating certain things like
you know, as long as it's not like the question
that gets the heart of weather racism exists or not,
you know, And then I think, yeah, but one of
none of those questions that but is it really that bad? Yeah,
and I can't even imagine. I think the one that
(36:45):
I don't know if you saw it on mine, but
you know is a uh he said a long whole
thing that he goes. So if you truly want to
talk about this, maybe you should address the black on
black crimes. Like people that say that know, that's him debate,
that's him baiting. Yeah, but I guess I didn't understand
(37:06):
like baiting what like he's it's it's somewhat saying that
is like, oh well, if they're worried about the cop,
talk about all their black on black crime. Got it?
Shift the focus elsewhere? Yeah, focusing on the racism between
We're focusing on hatred within one troubled race. Yeah, okay,
(37:28):
that makes sense. Um uh uh. As a white woman,
what do I say to my half black six year
old daughter? Okay? Um? I mean I had I grew up,
I was a doctor. I'm half black, and my mom
is Japanese and Portuguese, and I was raised by a
(37:49):
white guy, a French guy, and he always got that
question for me, Hey, dad, you know, why do people
treat me differently when I go to school? And I
didn't get it because I grew up in a white
neighborhood in Carpenteria, Santa Barbara, you know, and so he
would always say his son, he'd admit the fact, son,
your skin is different, but you're not different. And that's
(38:10):
what he would constantly tell me, is your skin is different,
but you're not different. And I don't know if that's
the right thing to tell this little girl, but that's
what my dad told me. And as a woman, as
a mixed girl, I hear from him all of the time,
wondering where is his place. There's sometimes he says I'm
(38:32):
not black enough, I'm not white enough, and those have
been issues that he's had growing up. That's issues you've had. Yeah,
I typically get I have a lot of When I
was in the end, I used to live over in
South Central and I wasn't black enough when I lived
over there, you know, I was always getting made fun
(38:53):
of for being light skinned. And then you know, when
I went when my family divorced and I went to
high school in Santa Barbara, Carpenderia, I was always too
black and I was being called the N word and stuff,
and so it's like, where's my place and my black enough?
Or am I am? I not dark enough, like where
am I? And then once nine eleven came around, I
looked Middle Eastern even though I'm not. And that's all
(39:15):
another thing that got added on top of it. So
it's it's one of those things for mixed people. You
get all of the hatred for being black, but none
of the credit for being white. And it's just those
things that's it's it's a sad reality. But you're not
dark enough and you're not light enough. Wow. Um, so
what's a tips are encouraging hate? Oh? Sorry? Number one
(39:38):
mistake white people make when talking about race. When people
say all lives matter. Yeah, I touched on that a
little bit earlier to Yeah, are saying black lives matter.
They are not saying that all lives don't matter. And
(39:58):
I think people are misconstruing that they're not saying that
all lives don't matter. We absolutely think all lives matter,
But the problem with that is when they're still marginalization
in this world, when they're still marginalization of people of
color in this country and they're not treated equally, then
(40:20):
their lives don't really matter. And that's when they're saying
when they say black lives matter, When they say brown
lives matter. They we could put it too at the
end of that, and that probably make sense to a
lot of people were saying black lives matter. To pay
attention to that, Mickey, that was the best, the best
(40:45):
that's ever been explained in my experience. So I appreciate that.
That was very very well said. And I think that
because that's when I definitely hear a lot right and
people society, here's a lot black, because that is how
it is interpreted at times, you know, And so I
(41:05):
I really that that was a lot of a lot
of clarity. So I appreciate that explanation that was that
was brilliant. Thank you. Absolutely, we're not saying that other
lives don't matter, because they do. We just want to
be We want to matter too. Another person said, how
to get involved in change changing the system? I've seen
books suggested, so maybe, um, you know what else they
(41:28):
can do to get involved in changing the system. So
balk In college, I um studied black history and our
teacher made us read this book called Black Like Me.
I wrote a song called Black Like Me, and this
book was written by John Howard Griffin, a white man
(41:50):
through radiation darkened his skin to look like a black
man back in the nineties sixties during the Gym Crow
Law era, during the Civil rights movement, and he went
to see what it was like to be a black
man living in America in the nineteen sixties. And there's
(42:10):
some of the most profound quotes in there that you
can read and a white man experience what it felt
like to be black, and it's beautiful. It's a beautiful book.
I was inspired by the title to write a song
called Black Like Me, which I have snippets on my
(42:31):
social media, And you could start there, start really consider
diversifying your life, the people that you hire, the people
that you reach out to. Again, it has to be genuine.
Not everybody has to be friends. That is not the
way the world works. But just reaching out and seeing
(42:53):
seeing people see us, see us. That's what we're asking,
see us. I have a question, and it's it's more
of just I'm gonna say a phrase and I just
want you want your all thoughts on it, because again
(43:15):
it's something that I feel like society. Here's a lot
especially when racism, racism is is is brought up as
a topic. When someone starts talking about reverse racism, is
that is that again kind of like the black on
black crime? Is that a misdirection? Is that like, how
do you get how do as African Americans? How do
you receive that phrase when someone brings that up? Reverse
(43:39):
racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that affirmative action
in similar color conscious programs for readdressing racial inequality or
a form of anti white racism. Well, let's look in
the country music, right O. I'm a part of the
(44:02):
a c M Diversity Task Force, and I'm trying to
help diversify the a c M, whether it's um in production,
the writers, makeup artists, sound people, even the talent just
to bring diversity here and people trying to give marginalized
(44:26):
people who don't get shots and chances to be a
part of programs like that. And when they're making that reach,
that is not reverse racism whatsoever. That is being inclusive.
So that's all I have to say about that. I
appreciate that. There anything else I want to I just
(44:51):
appreciate both y'all being willing to be vulnerable and kind
of express you know, your feelings and everything during these
times that are going on, and I am I do
empathize that this can't be easy to be an African
American in this country, in this world, let alone in
(45:14):
times like this. And I am I am sorry again
for for how I deliver things in an offensive, ignorant
way that has that's there's no part of me that
that feels that way or is that way, and the
people that know me know that for a fact. But again,
Mickey Grant, thank you guys for opening up. I mean,
(45:37):
the fact that you can recognize it, admit it, accepted,
and apologize for it is a lot more than anybody
that I know of. You know that's not black, to
be honest, it's usually you get back on. If we
were to start this conversation up, it would be you
explaining why you said wasn't wrong, and it would be
(45:57):
a hollow I'm sorry that you felt that way type
of thing. But you know, but what you did, and
to answer Janet's question, you know, what you did is
actively showing that you acknowledge racism and make steps towards
extinguishing racism. By acknowledging that you acted in a you know,
a very you know, racist way. By commenting that way,
(46:20):
acknowledging the existence of it is inviting it. And I
think that answers the question right there. And that's that's
really big of me. Man. I don't know you that well,
but you know, I sat down with her because I
thought that what was gonna happen is you were gonna
try to side step your way out of it and say, look,
I'm sorry that the words I said made you feel
that way. I'm sorry you felt that way, but you
(46:40):
didn't you owned it and apologize for it and acknowledge it.
And I think that's step number one in society is
acknowledging it and owning it. Appreciate it, thank you all.
I appreciate that. This is happy. Yeah, this is just heavy, man,
(47:01):
really heavy. You guys don't know the half of it. No,
And I that's where I think that, like the real
empathy is like, that's where it's like, you know, we
can get past it. There was the fourth of July
two years ago and we were out at my beach
house in in Ventura, California, shooting off fireworks like everybody
(47:21):
did over in Silver Strand everybody had a house or
they shoot fireworks off your balcony back porch. We get
a knock from the door from the police and I'm
at my house, my name's on it, my cars in
the driveway. They say, you know whose houses is, why
are you here? No, I mean this is my house,
my names. You want me to go get the title.
I mean that's my jag in the driveway. They didn't
(47:42):
believe me for anything, so they I said, look, I'm
an attorney, I know my rights. You can't come across
this threshold. They walked across the threshold of my doorway,
drugged me out of my house in front of my
and proceeded to pin me to the ground and beat
me being tell me this isn't your house. What are
you doing here? But you know what? As fucked up
as that was, and me having to go spend the
(48:04):
night in jail, and of course all charges were dropped
because I didn't do a damn thing wrong. I still
don't walk around and say, you know, fuck them, fucking Enta,
fuck the police. I I'm still trying to acknowledge that. Look,
I know that they fucked up, and I'm trying to
move on. Instead of harboring the hatred that I should
harbord for what happened to me, I just got rid
(48:24):
of the house and moved out of the situation, and
I still believe that there's good in people, and I
see that in Youtuo. I know there's good in people.
Not everybody's like the people that stretched me out of
my house, beat me up and locked me up. So
that's the last thing I have to say about it
is we all have to be positive no matter how
bad it's been. Well. I really appreciate both of you guys,
and I think this is hopefully our listeners that are
(48:48):
hearing this have are woard forward. They could have they
could look at the beer a little bit more introspectively
and do a deeper check on themselves and be the
change for you know, just be the change man. Yeah,
if you can itself, that's first and less, you know,
(49:11):
so the first step to self work. And I will say,
you know, it's you know, when I listened to things
like when I listened to music and I hear, for example,
Mickey's got a song out called what Are You Gonna
Tell Her? And I remember hearing that song for the
first time, and I think about Jolie because that was
(49:33):
the same thing. I don't know what I'm going to
tell her? What do you tell her? You know? And
I can't even imagine like all of this, it's like,
I don't know what to tell her. I don't know,
you know, I don't know, And it's I just I
love your song. I love what it stands for right now,
and you know, it's just it's just I have no
(49:54):
freaking clue what I'm going to tell her. Well, let
me tell you something amiss. All of the races them
that is happening in this country. Women are still being oppressed.
We're all the same, We're all in the same boat.
We're really freaking ore. There's a lot of pain. This
(50:16):
world is on fire right now for a lot of things,
for injustices happening the black and brown people, for injustices
happening to women, for COVID, Like it is heavy right now.
It is heavy. I just appreciate you guys, and I
appreciate this whole conversation coming back together because if it
(50:41):
would have just En did that, because contrary to what
this isn't about the great exist about, this isn't about
any of that, Vikio, you know, like this is this
is the problem. This is like this conversation and being
able to come back, like you said, granted to be
able to have a conversation and to have this talk
and just to to to empathize, but in a place
(51:01):
where you you know, we well, it's just yeah, this
is I just feel like this is I hope people
can understand where we're at right though. Yeah, I feel
like and all, it's so much more love in this
world than we Yes, that so much more love. And
(51:24):
no matter what riots and looting, selfish, horrible, mean spirited
people and racists, there are way more good people that
do not stand for that, and that's where we will rise,
and that's where we will all win, and we just
have to join together. A been to that. Well, thank you,
(51:46):
Bicky Grant. I really appreciate it. I'm glad that you know.
I just I love all of you guys, So I
just yeah, yeah, thank you, Thank you guys again for
myself for being willing to come back around. And I
make up that that wasn't easy. He had every right
not to, every reason not too. So I respect the
(52:08):
hell out of both of you guys being willing to
do that and forgive me for for my moment of ignorance. Um.
So I just I hope that this conversation can maybe
help somebody out there, like you said to to wake
one person up, two people up, whoever it is, so
we really appreciate both, y'all. Thank you, Thank you guys. Okay, bye,
Wind down and podcast. Okay, so I don't even know
how to start this. There's a lot going on right now. Um.
We actually had something else airing today. Um, but it
(00:24):
was it just didn't feel right to have what we
were going to air today air. It just wasn't relevant.
Well it was thought that it wasn't relevant. It just
it just didn't feel right to you know, because yeah,
so it just was like, so let me just rewind
(00:44):
like ten hours. So I know, we talked about it
the other day Mike, where I said, I obviously with
everything going on with George Floyd and the other events
that had happened this past few months and forever, honestly,
but this is where I just get where I'm like,
(01:06):
it's so hard to even say the right thing. But
I just felt really heavy in the heart, and I
I was talking to you yesterday, but yesterday I'm like,
I don't know, I don't know how to find words
to say what I even want to say. And I
deleted about a thousand different times. I mean all day
(01:31):
I was just on my phone trying to find the
right words. I'm like, no, that won't that, that's not it,
or no, or it's gonna know that's gonna be a
misinterpreted or no, and I just just deleted and I
kept saying. I was like, what can I say that
because I don't know what to say? And so you
had said, couldn't be more generic? Yeah, just general, because
(01:53):
I was shocked that you were getting d m s
of people giving you ship for not saying anything, and
it's it's that frustrated me. So I was just like,
all right, if you're getting flat or not say anything,
just keep it. Yeah general and generic. We're we're all
human beings. Is just treat each other like human beings.
(02:14):
So I said that, but then it still didn't feel right.
Something still felt heavy, and it just didn't feel right.
So I then today at the pool called Mickey because
I've known Mickey guy in for Mickey, how long have
we known each other for through for at least five
six years now? Yeah? Yeah, So I called Mickey because
(02:42):
I just, first of all, I love Mickey. I've loved
her forever. Hey, I wanted to see how she was
doing and be I also want to say I want
to support you, but I don't know how, Like what
am I supposed to say so that you feel supported
and that she feels supported as an ever an American. Yes,
(03:02):
and it makes it makes me sad because I'm like,
I want you to know that I'm like here for you,
but I don't know how. I'm sorry. This isn't about
like I feel stupid and crying, but like it made
me sad because sorry, I feel bad that I don't
know how to support you. And so I called because
I wanted to say, like, I don't even know what
(03:24):
to say because I feel like this, you know, essentially
quote unquote a white privileged little girl, white girl, Like
what can I say to you to make you feel
like I'm here for you? And I've I've seen all
the like I'm here for you. I'm not black, but
I'm here for you. I'm not, but I'm like I
something just still felt disconnected. So I was like, I
just want to call Mickey to be like, what, like
(03:46):
what do I say that you will feel like like
is it even words? Like I don't even have the words,
and so I'm sorry, I don't like it's just like
I don't. I just feel like I'm at a loss
really of what to say that like I can support
like so here Vicky talk. Sorry, no, um there is,
(04:08):
without question, injustice happening in America against black people. And
it's been happening since before we were even a thought
it was. It's been happening since before our parents or
even a thought. This systemic racism is literally in all
(04:32):
of our DNA for things that we may have had
nothing to do with, but it is in. It is
alive and well. Today. Black men are mistreated and disregarded,
and people are they are feared. They can't walk down
(04:54):
a street without everyone holding onto their purse. They can't
walk in a grocery store or any kind of retail
store without checking themselves to make sure that people don't
think that they're stealing. This is so, this is their
(05:16):
life that they live all of the time. All of
the videos that you are seeing of black men getting
killed in the streets by policemen and hated by everybody,
it's been happening. We just now have phones, and we're
armed with phones two broadcast the injustices and the hate
(05:38):
that they're experiencing on a daily basis. And I know
you feel bad. There's a lot of us feeling bad.
We all feel bad. There. If you don't feel bad,
you don't have a heart because this is real. We're
seeing it and we can't deny it anymore. And we're
all so charged because we don't want this to be
(06:03):
that way anymore, and we must remember and and take
a moment to be grateful for that. There is way
more love than there is hate. There are so many
people denouncing and protesting against racism, and I understand. I'm
sure a lot of my white brothers and sisters don't
(06:24):
know what to say. So a lot of times, I'm
sure you've seen we've all seen these killings four years
and I'm sure five six years ago when you were
seeing the murders of a lot of other black men,
I'm sure you thought about I need to post something,
I need to say something, But isn't my place. So
(06:44):
I'm telling everybody it is your place to stand up
and openly denounced racism. Period. And everybody says that all
lives matter, and that is absolutely true, all lives do matter,
but right now, black and brown lives do not matter.
(07:04):
And until black and brown lives really matter, all lives
don't matter. It's that simple, and so you can't say
all lives matter. I see a lot of people saying that,
and It's true all lives matter, but they don't right now.
They don't. Right now, we saw a man get murdered
(07:25):
in calling for his mother. And if people only ever
only knew what I've personally seen. I have seen in
vent Tura County, California, cops come to my home, take
(07:46):
my husband, throw him to the ground, tell him he's
not a lawyer. Tell people that is not our jag
parked in the neighborhood, being the only black people in
that neighborhood. I have seen the injustice myself, and after
seeing that, I would then have to go on a
stage and sing and act like everything's okay. And I
(08:08):
have absolutely saying on a stage and someone has called
me the N word, and I've just acted like it's
okay because that was just the way life is. I
expected that, because that's been the lot of my life
since I was born with this skin. And we're all
(08:33):
awake now, we all see it, and we are upset.
And I know for a fact, and country music, I
have so many good hearted, loving people that are not racist.
But it is not enough to be quietly non racist.
(08:53):
We all have to be openly non racist and shame
anybody that fills. Otherwise, if you love Jesus, if you
say that you love Jesus, then you cannot be a racist, period.
And there you have it, well, said Nicky, I ask
(09:17):
you this. Unfortunately, it's like, you know, people that are
are racist, people that are whether a police officers, whether
it's in business, whether it fans at your Shaw show
(09:38):
who disrespect you in that way, whether it's the police
officers that came and grabbed your husband, those people, if
their actions are showing that they're there, you know, biased
towards certain races and prejudice towards certain races. M with
(10:02):
all of the rioting, with the protests and everything. And
this may be naive to me to ask to even
stay this might be ignorant on my part, but it's
what's what's the end result? Because people are racist, this
is only fueling their racism. People that that aren't racist,
(10:24):
we're already not racist. So what so the one thing
I will say it does is for people that haven't
had to experience that, For people who are white or
Caucasian or even African American that haven't had to experience
but most likely have witnessed maybe those things. Sure it
(10:45):
awakes society up. That's like, hey, just a reminder, this
ship is still going on, y'all. Like it's not the sixties,
it's you know, two thousand twenty, and it's still going on,
you know, sixty years later or whatever it is, Yes,
six years later. I have a I have a great
example for you. Think of a dog and the sweet, innocent,
(11:09):
loving dog, and imagine punching that dog over and over
and over again, slapping that dog, pushing him around, disregarding him,
not feeding him, not showing him any love. And then
the one time you touch him, all of a sudden,
he bites you back. And what happens to that dog?
(11:32):
Most likely he's going to get put down. So I
do not condone looting and destroying property. I do not
condone it whatsoever. But there are people who have seen
that are and the lowest communities like Corona is affecting
(11:56):
the black community, And as soon as everybody found that out,
it was like the oh, well, why are we even
staying outside right now? So these people, there are way
more people that are trying to peacefully protests, and those
are the ones that you need to pay attention to.
Those are the ones that truly want justice, and yeah,
(12:23):
for sure. And it's just it just sucks because it's
this is only these kind of when it gets to
the looting and rioting, it only segregates us even more.
It only separates us even more because again, your your people.
The people that are doing it in an inappropriate manner,
whether they're African, American, white has been, whoever it is,
(12:44):
are just fueling racism and segregation. So and you can say,
I'm going to have to interject before you keep talking
because it doesn't sound good. Looting and writing has been
learned from the slave days. This is historically what we
have seen people due to black people. If you really
(13:08):
study black history, which I have, think about all those lynchings,
think about all those people laughing and not even considering
people as human. We learned that from white people. That
(13:30):
it's history. This is four hundred years of oppression. And
by the way, this is supposed to be a you know,
this is to gain knowledge and to gain you know,
there's I have some questions to you that some podcasts
listeners want us to answer to. And this is just
too because you know, yeah, this is just like gaining knowledge.
(13:51):
So I don't want you to like because this is
just that uncomfortable situation, or we don't even know, Like
I just didn't want to be like no, I I
think like I want you to knowledge, give us knowledge,
because you know we sit here in our we don't
we didn't, we didn't have the same battles and struggles.
(14:11):
And you have to think about it. But when we're
high school and in college, we only learn the small
little pieces of black history. It's almost glossed over. You know.
It's like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X Rosa Parks, you know,
the civil civil rights movement, but you don't really dig
(14:34):
into to what actually happened to some of these people.
There were slaves, pregnant women that were raped, beaten, had
their babies cut out of their stomachs, and we had
to watch their baby get stumped on. That is in
history books. But you could say the same thing for
(14:56):
like the Jewish culture, right, yeah, but why isn't the
Jewish culture they have just as many, if not, you know,
reasons to feel oppressed. Maybe not so maybe not so
much in America. But it's look at their skin color
though that doesn't matter, That didn't matter when they were
(15:19):
going through what they're going through. It didn't matter their religion,
was there was their skin color essentially. Yeah, so it's
just I guess what's unfortunate, and I'm not obviously I
respect everything you're saying. My only and my the pessimism
in my mind is just thinking, well, ship, when does
(15:39):
this end? If it's about being oppressed for four years
and this ship is still going on, when will it
ever end? Will it ever? Yeah, that's a great question.
I don't know. I don't know either. And the way
that the way things are going, it doesn't ask anybody
around the world, even Jewish people. Essentially, I'm gonna ask you,
(16:05):
would you want to grow up in the world as
a black person? Would you want to I'm trying to
choose my words because I don't want to minimize what
the black culture does have to go through. Like our
child does not have to worry about playing with a
(16:26):
toy gun. Ja's does not have to worry about a
toy gun. And that's where it gets me as a
mom to be like, Okay, that's where I kind of
that's I mean, that's not kind of. That's where I
get it. Where it's like Jason can run around with
a toy gun, without someone shooting at him. Right. But
to answer your question, no, I wouldn't have a problem
(16:47):
with it. But again, the grass is the grass may
seem greener, right, So I can't say because I haven't
experienced it. I'm sure there's African Americans who haven't experienced
any of that. Yeah, maybe their parents have, but I
get you. I bet you there's kids that maybe haven't.
Are you saying that's not you're telling me there's not
one African American that hasn't that has gone through life
(17:10):
and hasn't experienced, you know, having living without having experienced racially.
Your best friend is Jason, He's an African American. Has
have you ever asked him that question? And by the way,
I'm just like, yeah, I mean, we haven't talked about
it in a long time, but I haven't He's never
expressed any of that to me. But I mean, so again,
(17:34):
I'm just saying that playing the odds, I'm sure there's
there's somebody out there that hasn't been subjected to nicky
you're saying there, you know, honestly, it's this conversation is
very heavy for me, and to hear someone say that,
I highly doubt that all black people haven't experienced some
(17:56):
form of racism or oppression. It's just a numbers game.
It's not a racial games in numbers game. I'm going
to have to get off of this call. You cannot
say those things. You cannot Where am I saying this disrespectful?
All I'm saying is that there's a there's a possibility.
Is there a possibility? You know what? I got that,
(18:19):
I got it, I've figured it out. I don't approve
this at all. I don't approve this. Um I I
(18:43):
talked to Mickey, UM well, I think what really hurt
her is when you said you can't say I highly
doubt all black people have experienced racism and expect me
to want to sit there for that. Yeah, And I mean,
I know, I think I even saw the look on
your entries face where you guys are both kind of
(19:05):
like wide eyed after I said that, and I've I've
up there that was that was wrong and which you know,
we're kind of talking off the mic for a minute,
which is kind of the whole problem with all of
(19:26):
this these days. Is someone like me who has the
purest of hearts not an ounce of racism in my body,
and I mean, Janna, you know me like you know
my heart, you know, like there's none of that inside
of me. I was the minority in my profession and
the sport I played for of my life. So it
(19:54):
just goes to show that even when someone's intentions are pure,
that doesn't mean what they're saying is is sensitive or
empathetic towards someone else. Because what how I said that
kind of negating Nikki's answer to my question was ignorant.
(20:22):
It was, And I wish I could take that back
and say that differently, because that's not my place to say. Two,
(20:44):
you know, have an opinion around that, That's not my place.
I'm a white male. Who am I to say that
or think that there's possibly one African American out there
that hasn't firsthand hm M experienced racism. That's unfair to
me to say, and that's ignorant of me to say.
(21:07):
But again, just to reiterate, this just goes to show
how even someone like me, who has the purest of intentions,
who was just trying to have a conversation with Mickey
about all of this, how things can just go wrong
in an instance. So, I you know, this is this
(21:34):
is hard times and I just I feel bad, like
you said at the top of the show, I feel
bad that you don't know what to do or don't
know what to say to support the people you know
(21:54):
and love that are on the other side of this
because we haven't had to experience it. Yeah, and that
sucks that they have had to. All Right, well, let's
take a break and then um, I'm gonna see if
we can try to get Mickey back on the show. Mickey,
(22:29):
thanks for coming back. And and this is her husband's grant.
And I you know, when just now Jane and I
were recording, and I acknowledge the fact that the manner
(22:50):
in which I asked the question wasn't sensitive to the issue,
and I get that the the real insult was the
fact that I questioned your response that I said, I
I highly doubt that, And that just goes to show
(23:11):
my insensitivity to the situation. And I'm deeply sorry for that.
And what we're talking about is someone like me who
has the purest of intentions, who doesn't have an ounce
of racism racism in me, how ignorant I can still
(23:35):
be due to my lack of sensitivity. And I genuinely
and sincerely apologize for that. I hope you can hear
me from a good place that I'm at no disrespect
that I was wrong, completely wrong in the manner in
which I handled that, and I am truly, truly sorry,
(23:58):
as your friend m for saying it the way that
I did, for responding the way that I did. Racism
is something that you cannot play with. It is so
embedded and all events, and when you discount someone's experiences
(24:25):
that is mentally and emotionally damaging. Yeah, and I've worked
on a lot of myself for a long time, and
(24:47):
when you saying those things, you can take the one
too a really dark space, So that is irresponsible. This
is my husband, Grant's black, and I've seen people be
horrible to him for how he looks. I've seen it,
(25:11):
and he's not even as dark as I am. And
there are people that are darker than me. And when
you're doing that, it's harmful. It is so harmful. It
harmed me, and it took me back to a space
that I haven't been in a long time. I'm trying
(25:38):
to be as honest and open as I possibly can,
and with that, I asked that you hold that and
are gentle with that, I just want to say, like
from for Mike two, Okay, what I kind of what
(25:59):
I told Mickey during the like the break was that
we we debate a lot, and we we we asked questions,
and I think that was our bad for not going
into it with like more empathy. You know. That's that
(26:21):
because because ship the amount of times did I get
people mad at me because I debate situations or I
say things, and it's like and now I can learn
from situations where it's like, maybe I could be more
empathetic with how I ask a question. But in my amount,
I'm like, I'm just debating and I'm just asking a question.
I'm just asking what you know, whereas not knowing maybe
(26:44):
how I could be how I might be hurting someone,
you know. And again I know, Michael, I know your
heart and your attention and I and I'm just I'm like,
I don't and I know Mickey's heart, and I know
her heart and her intentions, and it's I also know
(27:06):
that you're also trying to speak for other people to
go ahead. What you just said brought this up for me,
and I, Uh, what I did was I was just
guilty of doing the biggest thing that I tried to preach,
(27:29):
which is just treated human being, regardless of anything else,
like a human being. And I'm sorry, Mickey, because, like
Janna was saying, being on the show, we do kind
of get in work mode and we're used to asking
questions and asking hard questions. And I pride myself and
asking these questions that maybe stir the pot. But what
(27:50):
I did by doing that was I didn't treat you
like a human being in that moment, and I am
and that bothers the shift out of me. Thank you.
So I'm again, I'm sorry for allowing that. J And
I appreciate what you just said because that registered for
me that I behind this microphone, I got into into work, Mike,
(28:13):
and I wasn't treating you like a like a person.
I'm I'm I'm just sorry. It's just, you know, whatever
it's anything to do with racism or the marginalization of
(28:36):
women and people of color, you have to go in
that with the most intentional intentions you could ever have
in those with those subject matters because it is so serious.
It is so serious. I live it every day like
(29:01):
I'm shaking great. Is there anything that I know You're
you're you're here and you know you're obviously probably heard
stuff during the break. Is there anything that you want
to say that you could talk about with all of this? Um?
I mean I think that, you know, just based on
(29:21):
what you guys are saying. You know, you guys do
this for the show, and I get it, and that's
what the debate is for. And you know, getting the
political discourse back and forth is what creates you know, good,
it's it's what creates the change in the world. The
problem is is when you're dealing with things such as
racism that are embedded so deep into the DNA of people,
(29:44):
you can't really go into it with the mindset of,
you know, we're just gonna debate this issue. You you
play Devil's advocate and I'm gonna play con It's one
of those situations where you really have to go into
it differently and you can only kind a focus on
the cons. There are no pros to racism, So I
think that's really what I get out of this that
(30:04):
makes that's yeah, that's a great point. But what like
making what I called you earlier? I'm like, what what
can I say? Because I was reading the Instagram comments
that they're saying, well, she hasn't said black lives matter,
she hasn't said this, and so which was what I
was asking. What will make you feel like we are
(30:26):
your ally and we're here for you? And what kild like?
What is that? Because I think that is where I
didn't have the words. I didn't know what to say
for a white woman. Right Well, like I said, completely
denouncing racism like not being around the bush, but saying racism,
it will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated
(30:49):
within my community, within my fan base, it will be
not it will not be tolerated. And black lives do matter.
People have to say black lives matter, because right now
they don't. I'm thirty six years old and I experienced
(31:12):
racism as a child, and it's twenty twenty and racism
is still being experienced. Little girls are experiencing racism. I've
posted a picture, I posted a video and on my
Instagram you can hear this young girl, a young girl,
have a perspective of feeling discriminated against a little girl.
(31:40):
And sorry, my thoughts are so jumbled right now. We
I think admitting that you don't know what because this
issue is so much bigger than any of us can
really wrap our minds around. Admitting that you don't know
how to cure the problem, but your willing to do
(32:00):
whatever it takes, you know, admitting that you don't know
what it feels like to be black and you never will,
but you understand that there is an injustice and you'll
do whatever it takes to bridge that gap. Could I
get that? Totally? Great? But what is that? That's the thing?
Like we're like and I asked, I asked, Biggie Dan
Our phone calls like, how do I teach my daughter?
(32:21):
I'm like, you know, how do I continue to still
those values at her? To to love all colors? It it?
It loves like how am I supposed to? Like what
do I? What do I do? Do I? What do
I say to her? Like? What so that she doesn't
think other things? And nobody is different? Yeah, I think
there's no magic for it. I think it's like Mike said,
(32:44):
everybody is different and it is one on one thing.
And I just think that you know, saying something, whether
it's the right words or not, is better than not
saying anything. Problem. The problem is a lot of people think, oh,
I don't want to say the wrong thing. You know,
it not my fight. I have never experienced racism, so
I'm not going to speak on it, and by not
(33:04):
saying anything, it actually lets the racism win. So whether
you're saying the right thing, saying something anti racism is
really what needs to be said. And it's such an
individualized way. You know, me saying this to you guys
is different than the way you would say to your daughter,
is different than the way I say it to my
you know, my coworkers. It's all very individualized, but it's
(33:27):
voicing that you see there is a problem and you
will not stand for it. And even when you everybody
gets pushed back. I get pushed back all of the
time for standing well women, music and any multiple causes
that I stand for. And nobody's ever going to be satisfied.
(33:48):
But majority people are going to be so excited. I've
gone on your page and I've seen so many people
say thank you. I've seen so many black women post
in people's pages, thank you for standing up, thank you
for saying something. And those are who we are reaching
out to to show people that are racists that they
have no place in this country. Yeah, I mean I
(34:12):
think that and that's why I like the conversation we
had today was at the pool, I was like and
where I felt bad and where I felt sad for
as as a friend, because I'm like, I I genuinely
just didn't know what to say. And I think a
lot of like there's I've seen like things means going
around like uncomfortable. It's like, because I am uncomfortable, I
(34:33):
don't know what that uncomfortability is. I think the comfortability
is that I don't don't know what to say and
what is enough and like to grant what you were
saying is you know, you know, but I like what
is it though? Like what what will like is it
going to the silent or the you know, the peaceful protests?
Is that like or is it just saying because I
(34:54):
don't know, I feel like words are so empty and
that's that's that's that's where I feel like it's false
flat for sometimes because I'm like when I say, like
when I see a big talent that gets destroyed by tornado,
I'm praying for this person, don't pray, donate or do
this or do that. So it's like what I don't
want to just say, like I'm you know, black lives matter.
What can I do? So, what you can do is,
(35:16):
whenever you're shooting, whenever you're hiring people for your team,
think about considering young African American youth and talented young
people to work with you, to work for you. That's
a that's a start because African American people do have
(35:37):
a hard time finding jobs there. They have a hard
time finding space too, to work anywhere. And it's it
would be important for people to see more of that.
Invite more diversity into your world. Let it be genuine,
let it be natural. Not every black person is going
to be your friend, and and that's okay, but find
(36:00):
young individuals that you may not necessarily thought, even young
brown individuals. I think diversifying is a huge thing because
the more you see it, the more normalized it is.
And I think, yeah, yeah, but can I ask a
few questions that were asked or no, like I I respect, like, yeah,
(36:22):
as long as it's not like debating certain things like
you know, as long as it's not like the question
that gets the heart of weather racism exists or not,
you know, And then I think, yeah, but one of
none of those questions that but is it really that bad? Yeah,
and I can't even imagine. I think the one that
(36:45):
I don't know if you saw it on mine, but
you know is a uh he said a long whole
thing that he goes. So if you truly want to
talk about this, maybe you should address the black on
black crimes. Like people that say that know, that's him debate,
that's him baiting. Yeah, but I guess I didn't understand
(37:06):
like baiting what like he's it's it's somewhat saying that
is like, oh well, if they're worried about the cop,
talk about all their black on black crime. Got it?
Shift the focus elsewhere? Yeah, focusing on the racism between
We're focusing on hatred within one troubled race. Yeah, okay,
(37:28):
that makes sense. Um uh uh. As a white woman,
what do I say to my half black six year
old daughter? Okay? Um? I mean I had I grew up,
I was a doctor. I'm half black, and my mom
is Japanese and Portuguese, and I was raised by a
(37:49):
white guy, a French guy, and he always got that
question for me, Hey, dad, you know, why do people
treat me differently when I go to school? And I
didn't get it because I grew up in a white
neighborhood in Carpenteria, Santa Barbara, you know, and so he
would always say his son, he'd admit the fact, son,
your skin is different, but you're not different. And that's
(38:10):
what he would constantly tell me, is your skin is different,
but you're not different. And I don't know if that's
the right thing to tell this little girl, but that's
what my dad told me. And as a woman, as
a mixed girl, I hear from him all of the time,
wondering where is his place. There's sometimes he says I'm
(38:32):
not black enough, I'm not white enough, and those have
been issues that he's had growing up. That's issues you've had. Yeah,
I typically get I have a lot of When I
was in the end, I used to live over in
South Central and I wasn't black enough when I lived
over there, you know, I was always getting made fun
(38:53):
of for being light skinned. And then you know, when
I went when my family divorced and I went to
high school in Santa Barbara, Carpenderia, I was always too
black and I was being called the N word and stuff,
and so it's like, where's my place and my black enough?
Or am I am? I not dark enough, like where
am I? And then once nine eleven came around, I
looked Middle Eastern even though I'm not. And that's all
(39:15):
another thing that got added on top of it. So
it's it's one of those things for mixed people. You
get all of the hatred for being black, but none
of the credit for being white. And it's just those
things that's it's it's a sad reality. But you're not
dark enough and you're not light enough. Wow. Um, so
what's a tips are encouraging hate? Oh? Sorry? Number one
(39:38):
mistake white people make when talking about race. When people
say all lives matter. Yeah, I touched on that a
little bit earlier to Yeah, are saying black lives matter.
They are not saying that all lives don't matter. And
(39:58):
I think people are misconstruing that they're not saying that
all lives don't matter. We absolutely think all lives matter,
But the problem with that is when they're still marginalization
in this world, when they're still marginalization of people of
color in this country and they're not treated equally, then
(40:20):
their lives don't really matter. And that's when they're saying
when they say black lives matter, When they say brown
lives matter. They we could put it too at the
end of that, and that probably make sense to a
lot of people were saying black lives matter. To pay
attention to that, Mickey, that was the best, the best
(40:45):
that's ever been explained in my experience. So I appreciate that.
That was very very well said. And I think that
because that's when I definitely hear a lot right and
people society, here's a lot black, because that is how
it is interpreted at times, you know, And so I
(41:05):
I really that that was a lot of a lot
of clarity. So I appreciate that explanation that was that
was brilliant. Thank you. Absolutely, we're not saying that other
lives don't matter, because they do. We just want to
be We want to matter too. Another person said, how
to get involved in change changing the system? I've seen
books suggested, so maybe, um, you know what else they
(41:28):
can do to get involved in changing the system. So
balk In college, I um studied black history and our
teacher made us read this book called Black Like Me.
I wrote a song called Black Like Me, and this
book was written by John Howard Griffin, a white man
(41:50):
through radiation darkened his skin to look like a black
man back in the nineties sixties during the Gym Crow
Law era, during the Civil rights movement, and he went
to see what it was like to be a black
man living in America in the nineteen sixties. And there's
(42:10):
some of the most profound quotes in there that you
can read and a white man experience what it felt
like to be black, and it's beautiful. It's a beautiful book.
I was inspired by the title to write a song
called Black Like Me, which I have snippets on my
(42:31):
social media, And you could start there, start really consider
diversifying your life, the people that you hire, the people
that you reach out to. Again, it has to be genuine.
Not everybody has to be friends. That is not the
way the world works. But just reaching out and seeing
(42:53):
seeing people see us, see us. That's what we're asking,
see us. I have a question, and it's it's more
of just I'm gonna say a phrase and I just
want you want your all thoughts on it, because again
(43:15):
it's something that I feel like society. Here's a lot
especially when racism, racism is is is brought up as
a topic. When someone starts talking about reverse racism, is
that is that again kind of like the black on
black crime? Is that a misdirection? Is that like, how
do you get how do as African Americans? How do
you receive that phrase when someone brings that up? Reverse
(43:39):
racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that affirmative action
in similar color conscious programs for readdressing racial inequality or
a form of anti white racism. Well, let's look in
the country music, right O. I'm a part of the
(44:02):
a c M Diversity Task Force, and I'm trying to
help diversify the a c M, whether it's um in production,
the writers, makeup artists, sound people, even the talent just
to bring diversity here and people trying to give marginalized
(44:26):
people who don't get shots and chances to be a
part of programs like that. And when they're making that reach,
that is not reverse racism whatsoever. That is being inclusive.
So that's all I have to say about that. I
appreciate that. There anything else I want to I just
(44:51):
appreciate both y'all being willing to be vulnerable and kind
of express you know, your feelings and everything during these
times that are going on, and I am I do
empathize that this can't be easy to be an African
American in this country, in this world, let alone in
(45:14):
times like this. And I am I am sorry again
for for how I deliver things in an offensive, ignorant
way that has that's there's no part of me that
that feels that way or is that way, and the
people that know me know that for a fact. But again,
Mickey Grant, thank you guys for opening up. I mean,
(45:37):
the fact that you can recognize it, admit it, accepted,
and apologize for it is a lot more than anybody
that I know of. You know that's not black, to
be honest, it's usually you get back on. If we
were to start this conversation up, it would be you
explaining why you said wasn't wrong, and it would be
(45:57):
a hollow I'm sorry that you felt that way type
of thing. But you know, but what you did, and
to answer Janet's question, you know, what you did is
actively showing that you acknowledge racism and make steps towards
extinguishing racism. By acknowledging that you acted in a you know,
a very you know, racist way. By commenting that way,
(46:20):
acknowledging the existence of it is inviting it. And I
think that answers the question right there. And that's that's
really big of me. Man. I don't know you that well,
but you know, I sat down with her because I
thought that what was gonna happen is you were gonna
try to side step your way out of it and say, look,
I'm sorry that the words I said made you feel
that way. I'm sorry you felt that way, but you
(46:40):
didn't you owned it and apologize for it and acknowledge it.
And I think that's step number one in society is
acknowledging it and owning it. Appreciate it, thank you all.
I appreciate that. This is happy. Yeah, this is just heavy, man,
(47:01):
really heavy. You guys don't know the half of it. No,
And I that's where I think that, like the real
empathy is like, that's where it's like, you know, we
can get past it. There was the fourth of July
two years ago and we were out at my beach
house in in Ventura, California, shooting off fireworks like everybody
(47:21):
did over in Silver Strand everybody had a house or
they shoot fireworks off your balcony back porch. We get
a knock from the door from the police and I'm
at my house, my name's on it, my cars in
the driveway. They say, you know whose houses is, why
are you here? No, I mean this is my house,
my names. You want me to go get the title.
I mean that's my jag in the driveway. They didn't
(47:42):
believe me for anything, so they I said, look, I'm
an attorney, I know my rights. You can't come across
this threshold. They walked across the threshold of my doorway,
drugged me out of my house in front of my
and proceeded to pin me to the ground and beat
me being tell me this isn't your house. What are
you doing here? But you know what? As fucked up
as that was, and me having to go spend the
(48:04):
night in jail, and of course all charges were dropped
because I didn't do a damn thing wrong. I still
don't walk around and say, you know, fuck them, fucking Enta,
fuck the police. I I'm still trying to acknowledge that. Look,
I know that they fucked up, and I'm trying to
move on. Instead of harboring the hatred that I should
harbord for what happened to me, I just got rid
(48:24):
of the house and moved out of the situation, and
I still believe that there's good in people, and I
see that in Youtuo. I know there's good in people.
Not everybody's like the people that stretched me out of
my house, beat me up and locked me up. So
that's the last thing I have to say about it
is we all have to be positive no matter how
bad it's been. Well. I really appreciate both of you guys,
and I think this is hopefully our listeners that are
(48:48):
hearing this have are woard forward. They could have they
could look at the beer a little bit more introspectively
and do a deeper check on themselves and be the
change for you know, just be the change man. Yeah,
if you can itself, that's first and less, you know,
(49:11):
so the first step to self work. And I will say,
you know, it's you know, when I listened to things
like when I listened to music and I hear, for example,
Mickey's got a song out called what Are You Gonna
Tell Her? And I remember hearing that song for the
first time, and I think about Jolie because that was
(49:33):
the same thing. I don't know what I'm going to
tell her? What do you tell her? You know? And
I can't even imagine like all of this, it's like,
I don't know what to tell her. I don't know,
you know, I don't know, And it's I just I
love your song. I love what it stands for right now,
and you know, it's just it's just I have no
(49:54):
freaking clue what I'm going to tell her. Well, let
me tell you something amiss. All of the races them
that is happening in this country. Women are still being oppressed.
We're all the same, We're all in the same boat.
We're really freaking ore. There's a lot of pain. This
(50:16):
world is on fire right now for a lot of things,
for injustices happening the black and brown people, for injustices
happening to women, for COVID, Like it is heavy right now.
It is heavy. I just appreciate you guys, and I
appreciate this whole conversation coming back together because if it
(50:41):
would have just En did that, because contrary to what
this isn't about the great exist about, this isn't about
any of that, Vikio, you know, like this is this
is the problem. This is like this conversation and being
able to come back, like you said, granted to be
able to have a conversation and to have this talk
and just to to to empathize, but in a place
(51:01):
where you you know, we well, it's just yeah, this
is I just feel like this is I hope people
can understand where we're at right though. Yeah, I feel
like and all, it's so much more love in this
world than we Yes, that so much more love. And
(51:24):
no matter what riots and looting, selfish, horrible, mean spirited
people and racists, there are way more good people that
do not stand for that, and that's where we will rise,
and that's where we will all win, and we just
have to join together. A been to that. Well, thank you,
(51:46):
Bicky Grant. I really appreciate it. I'm glad that you know.
I just I love all of you guys, So I
just yeah, yeah, thank you, Thank you guys again for
myself for being willing to come back around. And I
make up that that wasn't easy. He had every right
not to, every reason not too. So I respect the
(52:08):
hell out of both of you guys being willing to
do that and forgive me for for my moment of ignorance. Um.
So I just I hope that this conversation can maybe
help somebody out there, like you said to to wake
one person up, two people up, whoever it is, so
we really appreciate both, y'all. Thank you, Thank you guys. Okay, bye,
Host
Jana Kramer
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