February 20, 2023 • 43 mins
Legendary actor Bonnie Bartlett connects with Jana to share the REAL story of her open marriage to William Daniels (Mr. Feeny from Boy Meets World).
We hear the harsh truths and difficult challenges she faced as a woman decades ago, that unfortunately still affect women today, but we also learn some incredible lessons along the way.
Plus, we have some BIG news from a member of Jana’s Queendom!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast.
All Right, so a lot of you guys already know,
but for those of you that have not checked Instagram,
weren't it at the Boston Boston, New York shows? Okaybe
would you like to share your special news? You're big, big,
(00:22):
bigger by the good, bigger by the minute special news
we have um a silent co host on wind Down
podcast these days, she crag. Now third babies on the way.
We're doing June after two years of trying and thinking
(00:45):
maybe it just wasn't it for us? What do you know? Yeah,
how are you feeling? I feel better now. I was
really really sick for about seventeen weeks, if I'm honest,
but I was overly. I just I'm just the most
grateful person. I always stay that way. Um. I don't
know why. I'm like my happiest pregnant, which I know
(01:06):
is like opposite or a lot of women it's very
miserable and they're like eating beefsticks on the side by.
I really just think it is like the biggest privilege.
And I know a lot of people in my life
specifically that don't get to do it. And I think
that it matters a lot to just anchor in the
gratitude because I just know a lot of people pay
all the money they have in the world to feel
(01:26):
miserable for a day. So um, I feel a lot
better now. It is nice to not throw up every
five minutes. So um. But yeah, the kids are excited,
we're excited. It is going to be a really busy,
full summer. I definitely feel older and spared to you,
but I am grateful. I love it. Well, we're so happy,
tomb Okay, we've got Bonnie Bartlett coming on the show
(01:52):
right after the break, and we're talking about how open
she was but her seventy two year marriage and all
the struggles that she's had to face. Um st hi, volume,
(02:15):
I thank you so much for coming on Wine Down today.
We're so excited to have you. Oh well, that's good,
that's good. You know, I've been a little depressed because, um,
my friend Raquel Welch died and she and I worked together,
and I she was such a great gal and I
loved her and she the thing we worked on together
(02:37):
was called Right to Die, and she was the good guy.
I was kind of the bad nurse that I thought
the girls should die and and I mean didn't should
I should keep her up, I should just keep her going.
And she wanted to die and and Raquel was the
doctor that allowed her to die. But we became very
(02:59):
good for and she she was a terrific lady. And
I was sorry that in the obituary they never even
mentioned right to Die. And she was nominated for an
Emmy because she as good a comedian as she was.
She she was very good in this very movie. Yeah, anyway,
(03:21):
lost a friend and a colleague. That's never I keep
losing them because I'm so old, you know, and so
I keep losing people. And it's hard. It's hard old
are you because you've been married for seventy two years?
So ninety three from ninety three, you look amazing, you know.
It's my my grandpa who I lost last year. He
(03:45):
got into a place and I'm curious where you where
you kind of go because I feel like when he
had talked about losing his friends, he got into this
place where he was just like and I'm next, and
like grandpaa, don't say that. Like he became like kind
of um, I think that's depressed. But also it just
it just made me sad, so I wanted to use it.
(04:06):
I mean, when you get older, is that hard? Like
how do you kind of stay and stay positive and
and not go to that thinking? Yeah, yeah, you have
to work at it. Mm hmm. You know you have
to fight it because it it goes into a bad place.
But I'm fine. I'm fine. But I think also to
like it's it's with any age. I mean, I we
(04:28):
were just talking today like this this scarcity mentality, Like
we're all moms and I'm like, every time I got
into plane and like is this the plane that's gonna
you know, I'm like, I'm so scary, Like I don't
want my kids to live about me or I don't
want them to not have their mom or a my goodness,
and you know she she's pregnant now. So it's like
what it's like always like having that, like to not
stay in that fear mentality. Yeah, my grandchildren have it.
(04:48):
It's very usual because we didn't have it when we
were young. But my grandchildren both I have too that
really every time they get on a plane, they think
they're gonna die, or won't even get on the plane
because is afraid to die, you know, on a plane.
Do you have any words of wisdom for people that
kind of struggle with that? No, because I've never I've
(05:11):
never experienced that. I don't understand that. I mean, of course,
anything you do. My family were in the insurance business,
and they my brother always said to me, you know, Sis,
you have a much better chance in a plane than
you do in a car. Your your chances of being
killed in a car are much greater than your chances
(05:34):
of being killed because you're on a plane. So, you know,
because he was an insurance person, I mean, you know,
he knew of all those averages and stuff. So that
always helped me. He he always helped me that way,
and uh, for for instance, you know, and he would
say things, you know, like a motorcycle is the most
you have the most chance to die in a motorcycle
(05:55):
than anything, but you know, that would be the biggest one.
And then a car are but an airplane was very
much the last. Sure. Yeah, what I was watching that
movie Babylon with Actually, truthfully, I didn't get through half
of it because I didn't I didn't love it, but
it was interesting the concept of how Hollywood was so
(06:18):
many years ago, and you know, being in a successful
actress and going and seeing what Hollywood was then to
what it is now. What was? What was? What are
some of the main differences that you see back then
versus now, and what was like the most challenging back then. Well,
the thing, the reason I wrote the book in the
first place, is really to do a kind of a
(06:41):
history of what life could be for a woman from
the say I was, from the time I was a
little girl, I experienced that all of being a girl
being a difference. The boys were always preferred, the boys
were the stars, and the girls kind of went along.
(07:05):
From the time I was a little girl till now.
It's a huge difference, huge difference. The women and girls
and women have made great progress, not enough, but great.
We're still not equal. They're still not equal. There's still
not equal pay. Um Uh. Meryl Street would tell you
(07:26):
she's never been paid as much as a man would
be paid. And she's the very best, very best we have.
But that's just the way it is. If you all
the sports girls are are fighting for equal pay, the
girls who do sports. Uh, in tennis, I think it's
(07:46):
it's come along the way. And those women, those great
women have have made that happen, Serena, Billy Billy Jean.
I mean those women have made it happen because in
the days of the other sport women, they didn't make
much of money at all, the tennis women, but now
(08:09):
they do now and it's because of those great players
and uh, which is is wonderful. It's wonderful. So they
have to work on that. Still equal pay, it's just
not there. But it's been hard because in the minds
of and of all those older men, you know, they
(08:29):
just can't get it through their heads that they really
don't have power the power they think they do. Where
the women are able to now challenge that powder power.
And that's good and that's good, and that's happened over
my lifetime and so we still have a lot to go.
(08:49):
There's lots of many, many, many more serious problems. I
know that, but this is them and this was what
I could write about. And the way the difference the
way doctors I have there's a lot of stories about
doctors in my book and misbehavior and that in the workplace.
(09:11):
Now none of that is allowed, none of that. You
wouldn't dare do what they did. And uh, the complicated
one is my father because he was way off base,
way off base, and very I didn't understand he had
no bounds. He didn't have any bound bondaries, and that
(09:35):
was very bad. Now people know, even little girls know,
and that's in in the book a lot. And that's
really what I mean. I used my life as a
pattern because that's what I know personally, that's what I
know me. But it's everywhere, it's every every every life,
(09:59):
every pattern. I just happened to be an actress, so
I was in a different, different media in Hollywood. By
the time I got to Hollywood, I was forty five,
and I didn't think I would even work here. And
I worked a lot. I mean, I worked all the time.
(10:20):
But by that time, first of all, I was forty five. Secondly,
things had changed a lot already, so that I didn't
experience a lot of bad stuff in Hollywood. I experienced occasion,
and you know, and it was innocent bad. That's what
I call innocent bad. The men didn't realize what they
(10:43):
were doing. Uh. I had a very good friend and
he was on a gun smoke with me and the
bunch of them. I was supposed to be dead, and
so lying in the bed dead, you know Western Lady
that James said, let's before she gets cold, and he
didn't realize. They laughed and laughed and laughed. They thought
(11:06):
that was so funny. They told that as a joke
all over and everything. They don't they don't think what
what you're feeling. I don't like that. That's so funny.
M's so funny. It's funny to them, it's so funny
to me. Yeah, very d D be great. I don't
(11:28):
think your husband would I like to hear that either,
if he was there, you know. Yeah, And and men
do that a lot. They do. It's just well, it's
kind of like what you talked about, um with that
one actor that was like, I think they can say
they because they think they're funny, or because they're much
able that they can say things and it's okay, and
(11:51):
people are just gonna laugh. And it's like, well, no,
like it's not respectful, A and B. That's not okay. No,
it's not okay. If I think if I had been
a little better, I'm I would have said something. I
would have said, you know, that's not funny. Well, but
here's here's the thing that I didn't hear it. I
(12:11):
was asleep, so I just pretended I didn't dare it,
so I didn't wake up or anything. And they're all
laughing and getting that funny joke. Who is that body?
It doesn't matter? Does think it's just a body? Yeah,
but I think it's hard though. I'm like, I remember
being on like One Street Hill and our creator at
the time, I was in like these head of brown
panties on and do the filming a scene in a bathtub,
(12:33):
and again the comments that were made, they're so uncomfortable,
and at the time, you're also wanting to protect your job, right,
so you yes, you're trying to protect you I don't
want to say it. I'd be like, that's disrespectful. Don't
say now. Now, being almost a four year old woman, now,
I would say it because I'm like, I don't need
this job. I like, right, beat my job. But then
(12:53):
at years old, I'm like, oh, like, you know, and
just so uncomfortable. Yeah, but they know, they think that
they know they can you know. I also think there's
an element to where we're all very sharp women. I mean,
all four of us are very sharp women, and I
would say that all of us don't take much bs either.
But there is this element of being completely caught off
(13:16):
guard to where it's like, if you just had a
minute to really think about it, you would have a
million things to say back, or a lawyer one. But
at the time you're you're just like, there's no and
you're it's not something possible. None of us would have
ever thought to say something like that. So for us
to process that and then respond to it is also
that's right, that's a lot that it's too late. Yeah,
(13:39):
by that it's too late because you it's just like
with children when they do bad things, you've gotta correct,
you gotta punish nail right. Yeah, they're not going to remember,
but remember when you pulled Jolie's hair, Like, that's not
like they've been talking about it is it is treating
it like a child. I also I want to I
(13:59):
want to die into um if that's okay. With your
marriage too, and the things that you talked about in
the book, and I'm curious where you hesitant to share
your journey and some of the difficulties that you had
in marriage, because I like, back then, not many people
talked about and weren't open about the challenges and struggles
(14:20):
in marriage and I knew. I never heard anything from
my grandparents or even any actors back then about They
would never tell you about things like that. They would
never tell you. My mother at one point late in life,
we've told me that my uncle who was the very
sedate gentleman and so forth, and his wife who was
(14:40):
this lovely wealthy and she took care of all very
very very proper, and they had he had been a
student of hers in high school, and clearly that first
child had been a result of that. And then they
heard it all up, know, and the family covered it
(15:01):
all up, and they had money, and they they they
went on and with this very dignified life where you know,
they were the the stead steadfast people, you know, and
who I don't even know if if the girl who
was born of them even knew it. You know, I'm
(15:21):
sure they never told her that she was a pre
you know, they covered it all up, but it was
going on. It's always been going up, and everybody covers
up things, and uh, in a marriage, certainly all marriages,
if you've been married that long, there have been problems.
(15:42):
You know, there have been times when you more or
less would go another way for a while and not
be interested, you know what I mean? There would be
times when it would be rare. And I've known some
(16:04):
long marriages in the business, good good marriages. And I've
known times when you know said, hey, you go on,
that's just been the way. Particularly, Yes, more probably in
New York more probably in uh but yees. Small towns too,
small towns too. I can tell you stories and I
(16:25):
don't want to uh in small towns. So so why
did you feel as important to share this in No,
it's because I had to be truthful. I am one
of those people. I I can't sugarcoat things that I
can't say, Oh you know this, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
(16:45):
we go. Life is but a dream? Well, yeah, I can't.
I have to tell the story. I have to tell
it as it is. I have to tell it so
that you can realize that that there's a different kind
of love, harder earned love that comes with that if
you surmount these problems, if you don't just walk away,
(17:08):
if you don't just when you're hurt, when you're really
badly hurt, if you just don't walk away from the problem.
Life is about solving problems, and you have you can
do it and be fine. I think we are more
affectionate and more loving today than most couples. And we're
(17:33):
so old, Bill is, and yet we're very we are
always that way? Or is that? Did that kind of
happen over time? And over time? No, he when he
was he was not an affectionate person. Bill was a
very angry young man. And the fact that we could change,
the fact that we could change things and adjust to
(17:54):
each other was hard work. But we did it. Somehow.
Miracles happen, you know, and uh, things happened that I
will say this that at one point when I was
really down about the marriage and almost ready to give
(18:14):
up my niece who was eighteen and look like you guys, kids,
you know who I loved. She was like I had
wanted even to adopt her at one time, and I
was very close to her, and she would write me
letters and and at one point I was I was
(18:38):
just before all this happened. She wrote me, she said,
Aunt Bonnie, She said, how could you have worked so
hard to be successful, be a successful actress and then
walk away from it and just be a housewife. Well
I wasn't just a housewife. I was raising two kids.
But that was her last letter to me, and then
(18:59):
she was killed in a car crash, and that just
broke my heart. I was so upset about that. That
Bill kind of took over and he said, all right,
we're gonna move to California. I don't want to be
in the theater anymore. I don't like the life. We're
gonna move to California. I'm gonna have my weekends. I'm
gonna have time with the boys. I'm gonna he He's
(19:22):
very domestic, and he was so happy when we moved
out here. He had been offered three Broadway shows. He
had done seventeen seventy six, and he had been offered
three Broadway shows Chicago, The Lead in Chicago, Bob Fosse
and two other uh An English comedy with Geraldine Page
(19:46):
and Sandy. And he said, I don't want to do it.
I don't want to live like this. Well he changed
so completely. Well then then you you go on, You
go on, because the change makes makes all the difference.
You know, if if you were married to an alcoholic
(20:09):
and and he struggled with it and managed to control
it and get it up, you go on, no matter
what has happened before. I think if the person can't change,
can't you know? And earlier on when it was me,
it was because I felt so unloved. He was so angry,
(20:33):
and I felt so unloved. But we always had a
trump because of the work. We were always together as
actors and always helped each other and never jealous of
each other. Always if I had a problem somewhere on
the road with a part, he'd come and help, or
(20:54):
I would go. I would fly someplace to sit in
the audience two or three times try to help him,
you know. So we always helped each other that way.
We were always on hand all the way to help.
Was he SIV and you being open about the stuff
in your marriage, like the open marriage and everything that
(21:14):
he wrote about in your book? Was he or was
there some hesitancy hesitancy on his side to write about it?
I was a little reluctant, yes. And the guy that
was working with me helping me in the book said
you got to write at all. And I said, if
I write it, it's gonna be truthful, it's going to
be just as it was. And so I did it,
(21:36):
And yeah, I was reluctant. It had I had a
few sleepless nights about it. I had a few times.
I know that Sally Field uh wrote a book a
few years ago and she said even the less just
the day before it was published, she said, I thought
maybe I don't want to do this, so it is hard. Yeah.
(21:58):
How did he feel about it? Like with he reluctantly?
Was he like, uh, why why are why are you
saying that? He didn't care. He didn't read it till
it was all done. He didn't. Then he read it
and he said he didn't say he's all for First
of all, Bill doesn't remember like I do. I remember
every detail of it every day, you know, and his
(22:20):
memory is just what goes away, goes by by it
because he had a miserable childhood, and so he learned
to forget best. Don't they especial because he because he
technically cheated, right or no, if you want to call
it that. Yes, Yeah, So I feel like and this
(22:40):
is not he says, who says that's what a marriage
has to be? Where's it written? Yeah? Exactly written. I'm
curious though, like when you haven't open, like when there
was an open marriage and you kind of want to
change change the world. We were just talking about monogamy
and um, you know what, what how did you kind
(23:02):
of come back from? Because like I, I was in
a marriage where my husband had a bunch of affairs.
I couldn't come back from the trust and so we
ended up getting too. You were marriage where you did
have affairs. I didn't, he did, so yeah, and I
couldn't come back from I can very hard, very hard.
Uh So I'm curious, like for people because there's a
(23:23):
lot of people that you know. For me, like I
know my why, I know the work that we did
and then why I ended up leaving and like the
steps and stuff. But for for your situation, like what
would you say to someone that's going through that has
had that open marriage but he doesn't want to change
the rules, but also like to to just loving your
partner and like the key to like having what you
(23:44):
guys had for the next seventy two years. First of all,
if you are separated a lot, and we were in
our business, there's a big separate times separations, that's very tough, difficult,
that's very difficult. And then if you are exposed to uh, well,
(24:08):
there's so many attractive people. You don't just stop responding
to people when you get married, you still if you
if you didn't, you wouldn't be alive. Mm hmm. A
doctor told me that. He said that means you wouldn't
be like what you do about it, that's your choice.
What you do about it, that's your choice, and that's
(24:31):
the thing you have to be really careful about. But
the responses there clearly. I mean, we make fun of
movie stars and people say, oh boy, he can put
his shoes under my bad or well you know, things
like that, and they're they're making fun. But uh, because
there's no way to respond because he's up there and
(24:53):
they're down here. But if he was down here with them,
who knows, who knows the opportunity, The opportunity, if it's
is uh, very strong. It makes it difficult. It makes
it difficult, and you have to understand what's going on
and then make your choice. Make your choice. Yeah, whatever, what, whatever,
(25:20):
need you need the most, if you needed it, maybe
if you needed something more, you'd have found it. I
don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Or if
you were so in love with him that you couldn't
bear to be with anybody else, I don't know. Yeah,
it's every every case is different. Every person is different,
(25:44):
Every child is different. Every every child grows up a
little differently. And we have to have rules and boundaries,
but they're always broken. Children always break the boundaries, they
break the rules. And if that's the same, if if
you want, if you want to call that, I never
(26:04):
thought of marriage. We got married because we wanted to
have sex. That's the only reason. Because we weren't allowed.
We were broke, We had no money. Neither of our
parents wanted us to get married with thought they everybody
thought we were crazy because we were broke. But at
that time, you couldn't you couldn't sleep with somebody. Um,
(26:24):
your parents wouldn't let you in us the same bed
if you were you know, I mean, nobody would let
you do it unless you were married. So you had
to get married. So that's what we did. That's as
serious as it was. When we got married, that's as
serious as it was. It had We had no plan
about life except we both were in the theater and
(26:45):
we both wanted to go to New York and be act.
You know, well I did more than Bill. He kind
of followed me. He didn't really want to go. He
wanted to stay at Northwestern, but he came with me
because I wanted to do it. So finally he said
whatever his mother wanted him to do, whatever I wanted
to do, screw it, I'm doing what i want to do.
(27:05):
I'm moving to California and I'm gonna have my weekends
free and I'm gonna do what i want to do.
So he started making jam and cooking all kinds of
cookies and things like that, taking the kids to school.
He loved that. He loved all that. He loved not
working because he had worked all his life, from the
(27:26):
time he was a little boy. He did what he
was told and worked and made the money. I love that.
Your book, so it's called Middle the Rainbow How a wife, mother,
and daughter managed to find herself and went to I means,
I'm curious when you say find yourself, what was the
main message that was holding you back from finding yourself? Well,
a lot of it was the sexual abuse. I mean,
(27:49):
it makes you feel pretty rotten. Yeah, it kind of
proves that you're bad, you know, and until you accept
that you're a good person and that you can believe,
as Mr Finie would say, believe in yourself and that
and that you're Okay, you don't give your full self
to something. I had migrains for years. I had asthma
(28:09):
for years. I was able to get rid of both
of them and be healthy of ninety three. I have
a hard condition that they don't know why I'm still going. Yes,
you are still going because you're a bit fire. I am.
I am because I want to. Yeah, yeah, I want to.
(28:29):
Why don't you also feel like there's a certain level
of life that you can live in, A wholeness you
can find when you start being honest with yourself but
with everybody else. Yeah, that gives you years. I mean,
I hope at ninety three I am half the person
that you are when it comes to speaking intelligently about stuff, mean,
(28:51):
as honest as you are. But like, I think that's
what I love most about what you've you and Bill
have done in the book and all the things, is
just the pure honesty to come with it. There's been
times in our marriage where I'm like, you know, the
idea of marriages in life in general, like the hurts,
the abused, the tumultuous upbringing, Like people just don't talk
(29:12):
enough about it, and then once people start talking, you realize,
like the majority of the people have the same experiences.
That's right, And that's what I wanted to say too
in the book. This is just my particular story, but
everybody has that particular story. And people in our business, yes,
are more apt to uh have problems like that. But
(29:36):
every place I'm hearing from every place, I'm hearing from
people all over the you know how they what you
just said that you couldn't do it? I did. That
was in a office the other day and the and
the boy said to me, he said, you know, my
wife and I are going through problems. He said, she
wants to keep it going, but I don't know. I
(29:57):
just I can't see how I can do that. I
just can't see how I can. So obviously it was
in the other way, you know, it was the woman
and so, uh, you can't give anybody advice except if
they want to keep it going, they can find a way. Yeah,
if they want to keep it going, they can find
(30:18):
a way. And the key, what's the key? Right? Sent
me two years If you have one key that unlocks
the door. I know that you have to be able
to be truthful and honest with each other, you really do,
And that's tough. Yeah, uh, I'm not saying you can't.
There are things that you don't want to tell each
(30:41):
other because you don't want to cause pain. You know,
if if they don't know what if but you they're
clearly is something a little wrong. It has to be changed.
If you are wavering, if you are going in another direction,
(31:05):
so you've got to face that and if you really
want to keep the marriage going. You know, I don't
mean to tell people every little incidents or you know,
feeling or anything like that, but just to talk about it.
And we all have things. We drive each other crazy.
If we told people every thought we had, you know,
(31:28):
we drive each other crazy because there are times when
it depends on if there's enough love and I don't
know what that word means, but if there's enough consideration,
love and determination determination, but there isn't as funny, then
(31:52):
you move on. Yeah, I love that enough live. That's
so good, Bonnie, thank you so much for coming on.
I just think it's beautiful. I remember again like kind
of reading the story when it came out and it
hit the headlines and I was just it was so
cool that I love when obviously people share. I mean,
I'm the queen of not oversharing, but I also want
(32:12):
to help people relate, and you're helping so many people
by sharing your story. So thank you so much for
doing that, and thank what I hope, thank you so much,
so last honored to talk to you. Thank you, thank you,
bye bye. Oh my gosh. She's like a little spitfire.
(32:44):
I love her so much. She's great. It's such a
rarity to have. And I don't know about you guys,
but like to have an older generation that pours into
our generation. Yeah, I know, I just like want to
you all day, like keeping parents and I don't have,
you know, like there's just a lot of like that.
But I don't even have to say. But like just
(33:05):
her age group, her experienced her life like a full life. Well,
like even Jannah said though, like even if we had
our grandparents, they don't really they don't talk about this. Well.
So the only thing that like my grandparents, like you know,
my grandma, now that my grandpa passed, but I couldn't
sit down with my grandpa and be like, so, what
was the hardest part about your marriage? Like you know
what I mean, like like because especially than men, but
(33:26):
like my grandma means she would she said a few things,
you know, but at the same time, it's like, well,
he's been the love of my life since fifth grade
and you know, just like grass. And then there's my
other grandma who's you know, survived the war in Croatia
and Yugoslavia and you know, wrote it about how she
was eating mud for so it's like there's like that story,
but it's like this. The story is, you know, about
like marriage and like what we go through, like that
(33:48):
thread that like connects kind of like our struggles, Like wow,
we we all had them. It's just a very u shime.
Someone was honest with me about marriage. It was my
dealous mom, and I know you have a emotional anyways,
(34:08):
but I just remember the first time she actually like
was like oh well that you know, she was like,
well that was hard or this happened in our marriage too,
And I was like, what, like they have like the
most loving, beautiful like I aspired to be them, like
held hands and nicknames and bought art and collected sunshines together,
(34:31):
you know, just like best friendly stuff. And that was
like the very first time I remember someone just like
being like, yeah, she's hard sometimes, but like he's the
love of my life, Like that's I think just that
first sentences the piece that we have missed. Well, everyone's
busy like painting a picture, saving face or for whatever
(34:52):
reason generationally they felt like they couldn't share the truth
or whatever. That's the sentence you need to hear, like
of course it was hard, but I love this person
and we're always chasing after what we're seeing. We're always
chasing after that perfect little and we can't figure. Yeah,
but even like when she said, you know, um that
(35:12):
they're so affectionate there most affectionate, but they weren't always
that way, you know. I mean, it's like there's hope
for people like me, you know that, like you can
make a choice and make a change, you can change
the way. And I think this is that's interesting when
you say that because I remember talking to Nick in
my garage when I was working out one day when
he came over and He's just like, that's just the
(35:32):
way it has to be. And I'm like, no, Nick,
it doesn't. It's for you guys. I'm like you, like,
it does not have to be this way, Like you guys,
can you know, like do the work or do you
guys like one of y'all will have to like, yes,
Cat will have to be more affectionate, but like you're
gonna have to meet her somewhere halfway to to like
not to want her to almost be affectionate too, you know,
but don't just settling on the well it's just how
(35:53):
it's going to be. It's like, no, it's it doesn't
have to be. Yeah, really and I won't be that
be that's my like I pushed us further in it's
just not okay, it's just never going to be okay now, Mundane,
those days fine, and I all have those like average days,
but like if it just stays stagnant like that, like
that doesn't I don't know I to be it has
(36:16):
to be what works for you. And that's what always
stuck with me with any that. Amy always told me,
like stop comparing what you think it should look like,
what you're told it should look like, you know, you
know the things that need to change, but it can
still look like what your marriage looks like and be
great right now. I had this um some of my
parents obviously got divorced and not in high school and
(36:36):
my girlfriend Lisa, I was always so jealous of her
parents relationship that like every time I always saw them
like laugh because they just have such a great relationship.
But I remember always like I always had a little
piece of jealousy because I'm like, my parents were divorced,
and I think, get to like have that in a house.
(36:57):
And so that's where I think where I always went to, like, Okay,
now I'm gonna I need to find that I want
like the like the picture in the frame that I
never got, like I can't put a picture in the
frame with my family growing up, right, and then when
then then when it happens with my kids, like I
was like, now they can't do that, and so that
was just like that that's the piece that always like
hits me. Like what's interesting is they probably had their
(37:19):
own issues too. Now we can write that, you know,
now we can see like there's that picture in the frame,
But what were their struggles because I'm sure they had
struggles too, And I think, perfect, I need to do
the creature call me and give me the needs you
know that there was. But here's the thing too, though,
(37:41):
this is something interesting about like relationships and marriages, like
I the ones that are like, oh we never fight
to me, I'm like I'm I'm like, there's gotta be
I don't think it should be that hard. That's the
thing I remember someone saying to me. He's like I
was telling this one person. He's like, he doesn't it
doesn't have to be that hard. And I agree with
that you shouldn't have to fight tooth and nail. But
(38:02):
I also think I think it's healthy to have certain
fights of course, in conflict, like say, like we never fought.
To me, I don't think because I'm like, are you
really getting into the weeds of things? No? And underneath
the layers, I'm like, I want to know that my boyfriend,
Like I want to know under all of it, because
that's like that's really connecting on an intimate level of knowing,
(38:22):
like well you learn about each other. Yeah, And like
I'm not going to judge you. I hope you don't
judge me because I'm about to unleash like the veil,
but like you know, this is I think unleashing those
things then and then showing where you're at now just
shows like the growth of person and the intimacy like
I know this about you and I love you for it.
(38:43):
I don't know, Yeah, I always feel like, so we
do fight, um, and it used to be a real
real redneck at first, Like it just was real bad
at first, like not like physically, just like we would
just yeah, it's just would like we didn't know how
to fight with each other or for each other. Like
I knew at the baseline of everything, we were fighting
(39:05):
for each other. And like we sat down their therapist
for the first time. He was like, so, why are
you guys here, Like, you know, we talked for a
while and he's like, I feel like you guys are
best friends, and like we are best friends and we're
always fighting for each other. We just don't do well
fighting with each Like how do we you have to
that's its own thing. I mean we're eight years in
and we just did a three day intensive where we
just learned how to like talk differently to each other
(39:26):
so that we can actually hear what the other person
says and what brings up the walls and like, because
we're trying to enrich it and make it deeper and
grow it deeper and grow it bigger and keep it
moving down the road, but like we still have to
also explain to each other what throws up those walls.
I mean, we've had a lot of those conversations and
avoided exactly where I'm going, Yes, while it's going up,
(39:49):
So like you just have to like communicate that talking.
That's crazy to look to listen to someone like Bonnie
say stuff because it's like ninety three years in She's
like telling truth and I'm like, God, it biblical. The
truth set you free, So like why do we just
not say it for what it is. I'm not saying
you have to spill like your dirty laundry. Yeah, yeah,
let's be truthful. Yeah, I mean to like the world,
(40:11):
but in your marriage is to just be honest. Like
there's reason the reason I fight the way I fights
because I watched a certain type of fight growing up.
That doesn't make it okay. And he doesn't want to
fight at all because he never saw any fights growing up.
Yeah that's so it's like and I'm like, well that's
not going to be fine. Yeah. Yeah, I am feisty. Yeah.
(40:31):
I told I told boyfriend that I was like, I
cannot fight how I fought. But I don't think I
would ever fight the way that I thought in my
ex because a there's not the turmoil that's in the relationship,
but also I'm so careful now with my words and
like how I want to say it, and like knowing
when I feel something come up, I'll be like I
(40:52):
need a minute because what I'm gonna say next is
probably not going to come out how I wanted and
how you were, how what you deserve, you know. And
so when we have really gotten to that point at all,
like we've not had to fight, which has been amazing,
but like yeah, you know, like it's we have like
maybe um conversations and it's just like it's to know
(41:17):
that like how to like talk better and just community
like hey, that kind of like brought me the wrong way,
and like do like, oh, like let's talk about it.
Like it's so such a better way than like not
being like you're kind of retraining yourself to to just
like stop for a minute, not just react. I basically
putting into practice the things that I learned in couple
therapy with my acts that we couldn't do together because
(41:38):
there was just too much turmoil. It just was never
going to be able to like but like now that
there isn't that I'm actually saying, I feel why and
and then it's like oh, that's it, okay. Yeah, and
so you know how like sometimes people will say like
so people will say like I'm witty or whatever. Well,
the opposite swing of that is not charming at all.
(42:00):
So the back end of that is actually ugly. It's
really ugly. And so now there's been times we're all
say things like nothing good is going to happen from here, yeah,
because I just know. I know Michigan Detroit Kristen is
like two minutes, you know, like I just know it's
gonna get scrappy and it's not going to be good
and it's not gonna be what I want to say
(42:20):
or what like just knowing to went to like exit
the battlefield for a minute, which is like it's so
hard when you want to be heard and or just
cut sometimes like you know, or you're like I just
gotta like say it. But I think sometimes it's not
avoidant to just exit the battlefield. Feel like this is
nothing good it's going to happen, and I just need
(42:42):
a minute. Minutes are good. And I think it's so
nice to be respectful of remembering who you're talking to
and the person that you say you love. It's like
treat that person like the respect that they deserve. Yeah,
and also you'll get that back, Like I'm like, you're
my best friend. I don't want because you believe back,
so don't make me do it. But it's because we're hurt.
(43:04):
Is Like I remember the things I said in cash relationships.
I was also hurting, so I said things, Yeah, hurt
people hurt people don't get hurt. Hurt thing you what
is it? What is the thing that saying? Um, you choose,
like you choose the healthiness of it, which basically where
you're at, Like healthy attracts healthy, unhealthy attracts unhealthy. So
(43:26):
like that's kind of been true in a lot of
my relationships. Now I feel like I'm finally like healthy
ment healthy finally because I had but I had to,
I had to jumped to ye, you'll never be able
to find you, are you know? Yeah? Look at that? Guys.
All right, great episode, See you next week.
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast.
All Right, so a lot of you guys already know,
but for those of you that have not checked Instagram,
weren't it at the Boston Boston, New York shows? Okaybe
would you like to share your special news? You're big, big,
(00:22):
bigger by the good, bigger by the minute special news
we have um a silent co host on wind Down
podcast these days, she crag. Now third babies on the way.
We're doing June after two years of trying and thinking
(00:45):
maybe it just wasn't it for us? What do you know? Yeah,
how are you feeling? I feel better now. I was
really really sick for about seventeen weeks, if I'm honest,
but I was overly. I just I'm just the most
grateful person. I always stay that way. Um. I don't
know why. I'm like my happiest pregnant, which I know
(01:06):
is like opposite or a lot of women it's very
miserable and they're like eating beefsticks on the side by.
I really just think it is like the biggest privilege.
And I know a lot of people in my life
specifically that don't get to do it. And I think
that it matters a lot to just anchor in the
gratitude because I just know a lot of people pay
all the money they have in the world to feel
(01:26):
miserable for a day. So um, I feel a lot
better now. It is nice to not throw up every
five minutes. So um. But yeah, the kids are excited,
we're excited. It is going to be a really busy,
full summer. I definitely feel older and spared to you,
but I am grateful. I love it. Well, we're so happy,
tomb Okay, we've got Bonnie Bartlett coming on the show
(01:52):
right after the break, and we're talking about how open
she was but her seventy two year marriage and all
the struggles that she's had to face. Um st hi, volume,
(02:15):
I thank you so much for coming on Wine Down today.
We're so excited to have you. Oh well, that's good,
that's good. You know, I've been a little depressed because, um,
my friend Raquel Welch died and she and I worked together,
and I she was such a great gal and I
loved her and she the thing we worked on together
(02:37):
was called Right to Die, and she was the good guy.
I was kind of the bad nurse that I thought
the girls should die and and I mean didn't should
I should keep her up, I should just keep her going.
And she wanted to die and and Raquel was the
doctor that allowed her to die. But we became very
(02:59):
good for and she she was a terrific lady. And
I was sorry that in the obituary they never even
mentioned right to Die. And she was nominated for an
Emmy because she as good a comedian as she was.
She she was very good in this very movie. Yeah, anyway,
(03:21):
lost a friend and a colleague. That's never I keep
losing them because I'm so old, you know, and so
I keep losing people. And it's hard. It's hard old
are you because you've been married for seventy two years?
So ninety three from ninety three, you look amazing, you know.
It's my my grandpa who I lost last year. He
(03:45):
got into a place and I'm curious where you where
you kind of go because I feel like when he
had talked about losing his friends, he got into this
place where he was just like and I'm next, and
like grandpaa, don't say that. Like he became like kind
of um, I think that's depressed. But also it just
it just made me sad, so I wanted to use it.
(04:06):
I mean, when you get older, is that hard? Like
how do you kind of stay and stay positive and
and not go to that thinking? Yeah, yeah, you have
to work at it. Mm hmm. You know you have
to fight it because it it goes into a bad place.
But I'm fine. I'm fine. But I think also to
like it's it's with any age. I mean, I we
(04:28):
were just talking today like this this scarcity mentality, Like
we're all moms and I'm like, every time I got
into plane and like is this the plane that's gonna
you know, I'm like, I'm so scary, Like I don't
want my kids to live about me or I don't
want them to not have their mom or a my goodness,
and you know she she's pregnant now. So it's like
what it's like always like having that, like to not
stay in that fear mentality. Yeah, my grandchildren have it.
(04:48):
It's very usual because we didn't have it when we
were young. But my grandchildren both I have too that
really every time they get on a plane, they think
they're gonna die, or won't even get on the plane
because is afraid to die, you know, on a plane.
Do you have any words of wisdom for people that
kind of struggle with that? No, because I've never I've
(05:11):
never experienced that. I don't understand that. I mean, of course,
anything you do. My family were in the insurance business,
and they my brother always said to me, you know, Sis,
you have a much better chance in a plane than
you do in a car. Your your chances of being
killed in a car are much greater than your chances
(05:34):
of being killed because you're on a plane. So, you know,
because he was an insurance person, I mean, you know,
he knew of all those averages and stuff. So that
always helped me. He he always helped me that way,
and uh, for for instance, you know, and he would
say things, you know, like a motorcycle is the most
you have the most chance to die in a motorcycle
(05:55):
than anything, but you know, that would be the biggest one.
And then a car are but an airplane was very
much the last. Sure. Yeah, what I was watching that
movie Babylon with Actually, truthfully, I didn't get through half
of it because I didn't I didn't love it, but
it was interesting the concept of how Hollywood was so
(06:18):
many years ago, and you know, being in a successful
actress and going and seeing what Hollywood was then to
what it is now. What was? What was? What are
some of the main differences that you see back then
versus now, and what was like the most challenging back then. Well,
the thing, the reason I wrote the book in the
first place, is really to do a kind of a
(06:41):
history of what life could be for a woman from
the say I was, from the time I was a
little girl, I experienced that all of being a girl
being a difference. The boys were always preferred, the boys
were the stars, and the girls kind of went along.
(07:05):
From the time I was a little girl till now.
It's a huge difference, huge difference. The women and girls
and women have made great progress, not enough, but great.
We're still not equal. They're still not equal. There's still
not equal pay. Um Uh. Meryl Street would tell you
(07:26):
she's never been paid as much as a man would
be paid. And she's the very best, very best we have.
But that's just the way it is. If you all
the sports girls are are fighting for equal pay, the
girls who do sports. Uh, in tennis, I think it's
(07:46):
it's come along the way. And those women, those great
women have have made that happen, Serena, Billy Billy Jean.
I mean those women have made it happen because in
the days of the other sport women, they didn't make
much of money at all, the tennis women, but now
(08:09):
they do now and it's because of those great players
and uh, which is is wonderful. It's wonderful. So they
have to work on that. Still equal pay, it's just
not there. But it's been hard because in the minds
of and of all those older men, you know, they
(08:29):
just can't get it through their heads that they really
don't have power the power they think they do. Where
the women are able to now challenge that powder power.
And that's good and that's good, and that's happened over
my lifetime and so we still have a lot to go.
(08:49):
There's lots of many, many, many more serious problems. I
know that, but this is them and this was what
I could write about. And the way the difference the
way doctors I have there's a lot of stories about
doctors in my book and misbehavior and that in the workplace.
(09:11):
Now none of that is allowed, none of that. You
wouldn't dare do what they did. And uh, the complicated
one is my father because he was way off base,
way off base, and very I didn't understand he had
no bounds. He didn't have any bound bondaries, and that
(09:35):
was very bad. Now people know, even little girls know,
and that's in in the book a lot. And that's
really what I mean. I used my life as a
pattern because that's what I know personally, that's what I
know me. But it's everywhere, it's every every every life,
(09:59):
every pattern. I just happened to be an actress, so
I was in a different, different media in Hollywood. By
the time I got to Hollywood, I was forty five,
and I didn't think I would even work here. And
I worked a lot. I mean, I worked all the time.
(10:20):
But by that time, first of all, I was forty five. Secondly,
things had changed a lot already, so that I didn't
experience a lot of bad stuff in Hollywood. I experienced occasion,
and you know, and it was innocent bad. That's what
I call innocent bad. The men didn't realize what they
(10:43):
were doing. Uh. I had a very good friend and
he was on a gun smoke with me and the
bunch of them. I was supposed to be dead, and
so lying in the bed dead, you know Western Lady
that James said, let's before she gets cold, and he
didn't realize. They laughed and laughed and laughed. They thought
(11:06):
that was so funny. They told that as a joke
all over and everything. They don't they don't think what
what you're feeling. I don't like that. That's so funny.
M's so funny. It's funny to them, it's so funny
to me. Yeah, very d D be great. I don't
(11:28):
think your husband would I like to hear that either,
if he was there, you know. Yeah, And and men
do that a lot. They do. It's just well, it's
kind of like what you talked about, um with that
one actor that was like, I think they can say
they because they think they're funny, or because they're much
able that they can say things and it's okay, and
(11:51):
people are just gonna laugh. And it's like, well, no,
like it's not respectful, A and B. That's not okay. No,
it's not okay. If I think if I had been
a little better, I'm I would have said something. I
would have said, you know, that's not funny. Well, but
here's here's the thing that I didn't hear it. I
(12:11):
was asleep, so I just pretended I didn't dare it,
so I didn't wake up or anything. And they're all
laughing and getting that funny joke. Who is that body?
It doesn't matter? Does think it's just a body? Yeah,
but I think it's hard though. I'm like, I remember
being on like One Street Hill and our creator at
the time, I was in like these head of brown
panties on and do the filming a scene in a bathtub,
(12:33):
and again the comments that were made, they're so uncomfortable,
and at the time, you're also wanting to protect your job, right,
so you yes, you're trying to protect you I don't
want to say it. I'd be like, that's disrespectful. Don't
say now. Now, being almost a four year old woman, now,
I would say it because I'm like, I don't need
this job. I like, right, beat my job. But then
(12:53):
at years old, I'm like, oh, like, you know, and
just so uncomfortable. Yeah, but they know, they think that
they know they can you know. I also think there's
an element to where we're all very sharp women. I mean,
all four of us are very sharp women, and I
would say that all of us don't take much bs either.
But there is this element of being completely caught off
(13:16):
guard to where it's like, if you just had a
minute to really think about it, you would have a
million things to say back, or a lawyer one. But
at the time you're you're just like, there's no and
you're it's not something possible. None of us would have
ever thought to say something like that. So for us
to process that and then respond to it is also
that's right, that's a lot that it's too late. Yeah,
(13:39):
by that it's too late because you it's just like
with children when they do bad things, you've gotta correct,
you gotta punish nail right. Yeah, they're not going to remember,
but remember when you pulled Jolie's hair, Like, that's not
like they've been talking about it is it is treating
it like a child. I also I want to I
(13:59):
want to die into um if that's okay. With your
marriage too, and the things that you talked about in
the book, and I'm curious where you hesitant to share
your journey and some of the difficulties that you had
in marriage, because I like, back then, not many people
talked about and weren't open about the challenges and struggles
(14:20):
in marriage and I knew. I never heard anything from
my grandparents or even any actors back then about They
would never tell you about things like that. They would
never tell you. My mother at one point late in life,
we've told me that my uncle who was the very
sedate gentleman and so forth, and his wife who was
(14:40):
this lovely wealthy and she took care of all very
very very proper, and they had he had been a
student of hers in high school, and clearly that first
child had been a result of that. And then they
heard it all up, know, and the family covered it
(15:01):
all up, and they had money, and they they they
went on and with this very dignified life where you know,
they were the the stead steadfast people, you know, and
who I don't even know if if the girl who
was born of them even knew it. You know, I'm
(15:21):
sure they never told her that she was a pre
you know, they covered it all up, but it was
going on. It's always been going up, and everybody covers
up things, and uh, in a marriage, certainly all marriages,
if you've been married that long, there have been problems.
(15:42):
You know, there have been times when you more or
less would go another way for a while and not
be interested, you know what I mean? There would be
times when it would be rare. And I've known some
(16:04):
long marriages in the business, good good marriages. And I've
known times when you know said, hey, you go on,
that's just been the way. Particularly, Yes, more probably in
New York more probably in uh but yees. Small towns too,
small towns too. I can tell you stories and I
(16:25):
don't want to uh in small towns. So so why
did you feel as important to share this in No,
it's because I had to be truthful. I am one
of those people. I I can't sugarcoat things that I
can't say, Oh you know this, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
(16:45):
we go. Life is but a dream? Well, yeah, I can't.
I have to tell the story. I have to tell
it as it is. I have to tell it so
that you can realize that that there's a different kind
of love, harder earned love that comes with that if
you surmount these problems, if you don't just walk away,
(17:08):
if you don't just when you're hurt, when you're really
badly hurt, if you just don't walk away from the problem.
Life is about solving problems, and you have you can
do it and be fine. I think we are more
affectionate and more loving today than most couples. And we're
(17:33):
so old, Bill is, and yet we're very we are
always that way? Or is that? Did that kind of
happen over time? And over time? No, he when he
was he was not an affectionate person. Bill was a
very angry young man. And the fact that we could change,
the fact that we could change things and adjust to
(17:54):
each other was hard work. But we did it. Somehow.
Miracles happen, you know, and uh, things happened that I
will say this that at one point when I was
really down about the marriage and almost ready to give
(18:14):
up my niece who was eighteen and look like you guys, kids,
you know who I loved. She was like I had
wanted even to adopt her at one time, and I
was very close to her, and she would write me
letters and and at one point I was I was
(18:38):
just before all this happened. She wrote me, she said,
Aunt Bonnie, She said, how could you have worked so
hard to be successful, be a successful actress and then
walk away from it and just be a housewife. Well
I wasn't just a housewife. I was raising two kids.
But that was her last letter to me, and then
(18:59):
she was killed in a car crash, and that just
broke my heart. I was so upset about that. That
Bill kind of took over and he said, all right,
we're gonna move to California. I don't want to be
in the theater anymore. I don't like the life. We're
gonna move to California. I'm gonna have my weekends. I'm
gonna have time with the boys. I'm gonna he He's
(19:22):
very domestic, and he was so happy when we moved
out here. He had been offered three Broadway shows. He
had done seventeen seventy six, and he had been offered
three Broadway shows Chicago, The Lead in Chicago, Bob Fosse
and two other uh An English comedy with Geraldine Page
(19:46):
and Sandy. And he said, I don't want to do it.
I don't want to live like this. Well he changed
so completely. Well then then you you go on, You
go on, because the change makes makes all the difference.
You know, if if you were married to an alcoholic
(20:09):
and and he struggled with it and managed to control
it and get it up, you go on, no matter
what has happened before. I think if the person can't change,
can't you know? And earlier on when it was me,
it was because I felt so unloved. He was so angry,
(20:33):
and I felt so unloved. But we always had a
trump because of the work. We were always together as
actors and always helped each other and never jealous of
each other. Always if I had a problem somewhere on
the road with a part, he'd come and help, or
(20:54):
I would go. I would fly someplace to sit in
the audience two or three times try to help him,
you know. So we always helped each other that way.
We were always on hand all the way to help.
Was he SIV and you being open about the stuff
in your marriage, like the open marriage and everything that
(21:14):
he wrote about in your book? Was he or was
there some hesitancy hesitancy on his side to write about it?
I was a little reluctant, yes. And the guy that
was working with me helping me in the book said
you got to write at all. And I said, if
I write it, it's gonna be truthful, it's going to
be just as it was. And so I did it,
(21:36):
And yeah, I was reluctant. It had I had a
few sleepless nights about it. I had a few times.
I know that Sally Field uh wrote a book a
few years ago and she said even the less just
the day before it was published, she said, I thought
maybe I don't want to do this, so it is hard. Yeah.
(21:58):
How did he feel about it? Like with he reluctantly?
Was he like, uh, why why are why are you
saying that? He didn't care. He didn't read it till
it was all done. He didn't. Then he read it
and he said he didn't say he's all for First
of all, Bill doesn't remember like I do. I remember
every detail of it every day, you know, and his
(22:20):
memory is just what goes away, goes by by it
because he had a miserable childhood, and so he learned
to forget best. Don't they especial because he because he
technically cheated, right or no, if you want to call
it that. Yes, Yeah, So I feel like and this
(22:40):
is not he says, who says that's what a marriage
has to be? Where's it written? Yeah? Exactly written. I'm
curious though, like when you haven't open, like when there
was an open marriage and you kind of want to
change change the world. We were just talking about monogamy
and um, you know what, what how did you kind
(23:02):
of come back from? Because like I, I was in
a marriage where my husband had a bunch of affairs.
I couldn't come back from the trust and so we
ended up getting too. You were marriage where you did
have affairs. I didn't, he did, so yeah, and I
couldn't come back from I can very hard, very hard.
Uh So I'm curious, like for people because there's a
(23:23):
lot of people that you know. For me, like I
know my why, I know the work that we did
and then why I ended up leaving and like the
steps and stuff. But for for your situation, like what
would you say to someone that's going through that has
had that open marriage but he doesn't want to change
the rules, but also like to to just loving your
partner and like the key to like having what you
(23:44):
guys had for the next seventy two years. First of all,
if you are separated a lot, and we were in
our business, there's a big separate times separations, that's very tough, difficult,
that's very difficult. And then if you are exposed to uh, well,
(24:08):
there's so many attractive people. You don't just stop responding
to people when you get married, you still if you
if you didn't, you wouldn't be alive. Mm hmm. A
doctor told me that. He said that means you wouldn't
be like what you do about it, that's your choice.
What you do about it, that's your choice, and that's
(24:31):
the thing you have to be really careful about. But
the responses there clearly. I mean, we make fun of
movie stars and people say, oh boy, he can put
his shoes under my bad or well you know, things
like that, and they're they're making fun. But uh, because
there's no way to respond because he's up there and
(24:53):
they're down here. But if he was down here with them,
who knows, who knows the opportunity, The opportunity, if it's
is uh, very strong. It makes it difficult. It makes
it difficult, and you have to understand what's going on
and then make your choice. Make your choice. Yeah, whatever, what, whatever,
(25:20):
need you need the most, if you needed it, maybe
if you needed something more, you'd have found it. I
don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Or if
you were so in love with him that you couldn't
bear to be with anybody else, I don't know. Yeah,
it's every every case is different. Every person is different,
(25:44):
Every child is different. Every every child grows up a
little differently. And we have to have rules and boundaries,
but they're always broken. Children always break the boundaries, they
break the rules. And if that's the same, if if
you want, if you want to call that, I never
(26:04):
thought of marriage. We got married because we wanted to
have sex. That's the only reason. Because we weren't allowed.
We were broke, We had no money. Neither of our
parents wanted us to get married with thought they everybody
thought we were crazy because we were broke. But at
that time, you couldn't you couldn't sleep with somebody. Um,
(26:24):
your parents wouldn't let you in us the same bed
if you were you know, I mean, nobody would let
you do it unless you were married. So you had
to get married. So that's what we did. That's as
serious as it was. When we got married, that's as
serious as it was. It had We had no plan
about life except we both were in the theater and
(26:45):
we both wanted to go to New York and be act.
You know, well I did more than Bill. He kind
of followed me. He didn't really want to go. He
wanted to stay at Northwestern, but he came with me
because I wanted to do it. So finally he said
whatever his mother wanted him to do, whatever I wanted
to do, screw it, I'm doing what i want to do.
(27:05):
I'm moving to California and I'm gonna have my weekends
free and I'm gonna do what i want to do.
So he started making jam and cooking all kinds of
cookies and things like that, taking the kids to school.
He loved that. He loved all that. He loved not
working because he had worked all his life, from the
(27:26):
time he was a little boy. He did what he
was told and worked and made the money. I love that.
Your book, so it's called Middle the Rainbow How a wife, mother,
and daughter managed to find herself and went to I means,
I'm curious when you say find yourself, what was the
main message that was holding you back from finding yourself? Well,
a lot of it was the sexual abuse. I mean,
(27:49):
it makes you feel pretty rotten. Yeah, it kind of
proves that you're bad, you know, and until you accept
that you're a good person and that you can believe,
as Mr Finie would say, believe in yourself and that
and that you're Okay, you don't give your full self
to something. I had migrains for years. I had asthma
(28:09):
for years. I was able to get rid of both
of them and be healthy of ninety three. I have
a hard condition that they don't know why I'm still going. Yes,
you are still going because you're a bit fire. I am.
I am because I want to. Yeah, yeah, I want to.
(28:29):
Why don't you also feel like there's a certain level
of life that you can live in, A wholeness you
can find when you start being honest with yourself but
with everybody else. Yeah, that gives you years. I mean,
I hope at ninety three I am half the person
that you are when it comes to speaking intelligently about stuff, mean,
(28:51):
as honest as you are. But like, I think that's
what I love most about what you've you and Bill
have done in the book and all the things, is
just the pure honesty to come with it. There's been
times in our marriage where I'm like, you know, the
idea of marriages in life in general, like the hurts,
the abused, the tumultuous upbringing, Like people just don't talk
(29:12):
enough about it, and then once people start talking, you realize,
like the majority of the people have the same experiences.
That's right, And that's what I wanted to say too
in the book. This is just my particular story, but
everybody has that particular story. And people in our business, yes,
are more apt to uh have problems like that. But
(29:36):
every place I'm hearing from every place, I'm hearing from
people all over the you know how they what you
just said that you couldn't do it? I did. That
was in a office the other day and the and
the boy said to me, he said, you know, my
wife and I are going through problems. He said, she
wants to keep it going, but I don't know. I
(29:57):
just I can't see how I can do that. I
just can't see how I can. So obviously it was
in the other way, you know, it was the woman
and so, uh, you can't give anybody advice except if
they want to keep it going, they can find a way. Yeah,
if they want to keep it going, they can find
(30:18):
a way. And the key, what's the key? Right? Sent
me two years If you have one key that unlocks
the door. I know that you have to be able
to be truthful and honest with each other, you really do,
And that's tough. Yeah, uh, I'm not saying you can't.
There are things that you don't want to tell each
(30:41):
other because you don't want to cause pain. You know,
if if they don't know what if but you they're
clearly is something a little wrong. It has to be changed.
If you are wavering, if you are going in another direction,
(31:05):
so you've got to face that and if you really
want to keep the marriage going. You know, I don't
mean to tell people every little incidents or you know,
feeling or anything like that, but just to talk about it.
And we all have things. We drive each other crazy.
If we told people every thought we had, you know,
(31:28):
we drive each other crazy because there are times when
it depends on if there's enough love and I don't
know what that word means, but if there's enough consideration,
love and determination determination, but there isn't as funny, then
(31:52):
you move on. Yeah, I love that enough live. That's
so good, Bonnie, thank you so much for coming on.
I just think it's beautiful. I remember again like kind
of reading the story when it came out and it
hit the headlines and I was just it was so
cool that I love when obviously people share. I mean,
I'm the queen of not oversharing, but I also want
(32:12):
to help people relate, and you're helping so many people
by sharing your story. So thank you so much for
doing that, and thank what I hope, thank you so much,
so last honored to talk to you. Thank you, thank you,
bye bye. Oh my gosh. She's like a little spitfire.
(32:44):
I love her so much. She's great. It's such a
rarity to have. And I don't know about you guys,
but like to have an older generation that pours into
our generation. Yeah, I know, I just like want to
you all day, like keeping parents and I don't have,
you know, like there's just a lot of like that.
But I don't even have to say. But like just
(33:05):
her age group, her experienced her life like a full life. Well,
like even Jannah said though, like even if we had
our grandparents, they don't really they don't talk about this. Well.
So the only thing that like my grandparents, like you know,
my grandma, now that my grandpa passed, but I couldn't
sit down with my grandpa and be like, so, what
was the hardest part about your marriage? Like you know
what I mean, like like because especially than men, but
(33:26):
like my grandma means she would she said a few things,
you know, but at the same time, it's like, well,
he's been the love of my life since fifth grade
and you know, just like grass. And then there's my
other grandma who's you know, survived the war in Croatia
and Yugoslavia and you know, wrote it about how she
was eating mud for so it's like there's like that story,
but it's like this. The story is, you know, about
like marriage and like what we go through, like that
(33:48):
thread that like connects kind of like our struggles, Like wow,
we we all had them. It's just a very u shime.
Someone was honest with me about marriage. It was my
dealous mom, and I know you have a emotional anyways,
(34:08):
but I just remember the first time she actually like
was like oh well that you know, she was like,
well that was hard or this happened in our marriage too,
And I was like, what, like they have like the
most loving, beautiful like I aspired to be them, like
held hands and nicknames and bought art and collected sunshines together,
(34:31):
you know, just like best friendly stuff. And that was
like the very first time I remember someone just like
being like, yeah, she's hard sometimes, but like he's the
love of my life, Like that's I think just that
first sentences the piece that we have missed. Well, everyone's
busy like painting a picture, saving face or for whatever
(34:52):
reason generationally they felt like they couldn't share the truth
or whatever. That's the sentence you need to hear, like
of course it was hard, but I love this person
and we're always chasing after what we're seeing. We're always
chasing after that perfect little and we can't figure. Yeah,
but even like when she said, you know, um that
(35:12):
they're so affectionate there most affectionate, but they weren't always
that way, you know. I mean, it's like there's hope
for people like me, you know that, like you can
make a choice and make a change, you can change
the way. And I think this is that's interesting when
you say that because I remember talking to Nick in
my garage when I was working out one day when
he came over and He's just like, that's just the
(35:32):
way it has to be. And I'm like, no, Nick,
it doesn't. It's for you guys. I'm like you, like,
it does not have to be this way, Like you guys,
can you know, like do the work or do you
guys like one of y'all will have to like, yes,
Cat will have to be more affectionate, but like you're
gonna have to meet her somewhere halfway to to like
not to want her to almost be affectionate too, you know,
but don't just settling on the well it's just how
(35:53):
it's going to be. It's like, no, it's it doesn't
have to be. Yeah, really and I won't be that
be that's my like I pushed us further in it's
just not okay, it's just never going to be okay now, Mundane,
those days fine, and I all have those like average days,
but like if it just stays stagnant like that, like
that doesn't I don't know I to be it has
(36:16):
to be what works for you. And that's what always
stuck with me with any that. Amy always told me,
like stop comparing what you think it should look like,
what you're told it should look like, you know, you
know the things that need to change, but it can
still look like what your marriage looks like and be
great right now. I had this um some of my
parents obviously got divorced and not in high school and
(36:36):
my girlfriend Lisa, I was always so jealous of her
parents relationship that like every time I always saw them
like laugh because they just have such a great relationship.
But I remember always like I always had a little
piece of jealousy because I'm like, my parents were divorced,
and I think, get to like have that in a house.
(36:57):
And so that's where I think where I always went to, like, Okay,
now I'm gonna I need to find that I want
like the like the picture in the frame that I
never got, like I can't put a picture in the
frame with my family growing up, right, and then when
then then when it happens with my kids, like I
was like, now they can't do that, and so that
was just like that that's the piece that always like
hits me. Like what's interesting is they probably had their
(37:19):
own issues too. Now we can write that, you know,
now we can see like there's that picture in the frame,
But what were their struggles because I'm sure they had
struggles too, And I think, perfect, I need to do
the creature call me and give me the needs you
know that there was. But here's the thing too, though,
(37:41):
this is something interesting about like relationships and marriages, like
I the ones that are like, oh we never fight
to me, I'm like I'm I'm like, there's gotta be
I don't think it should be that hard. That's the
thing I remember someone saying to me. He's like I
was telling this one person. He's like, he doesn't it
doesn't have to be that hard. And I agree with
that you shouldn't have to fight tooth and nail. But
(38:02):
I also think I think it's healthy to have certain
fights of course, in conflict, like say, like we never fought.
To me, I don't think because I'm like, are you
really getting into the weeds of things? No? And underneath
the layers, I'm like, I want to know that my boyfriend,
Like I want to know under all of it, because
that's like that's really connecting on an intimate level of knowing,
(38:22):
like well you learn about each other. Yeah, And like
I'm not going to judge you. I hope you don't
judge me because I'm about to unleash like the veil,
but like you know, this is I think unleashing those
things then and then showing where you're at now just
shows like the growth of person and the intimacy like
I know this about you and I love you for it.
(38:43):
I don't know, Yeah, I always feel like, so we
do fight, um, and it used to be a real
real redneck at first, Like it just was real bad
at first, like not like physically, just like we would
just yeah, it's just would like we didn't know how
to fight with each other or for each other. Like
I knew at the baseline of everything, we were fighting
(39:05):
for each other. And like we sat down their therapist
for the first time. He was like, so, why are
you guys here, Like, you know, we talked for a
while and he's like, I feel like you guys are
best friends, and like we are best friends and we're
always fighting for each other. We just don't do well
fighting with each Like how do we you have to
that's its own thing. I mean we're eight years in
and we just did a three day intensive where we
just learned how to like talk differently to each other
(39:26):
so that we can actually hear what the other person
says and what brings up the walls and like, because
we're trying to enrich it and make it deeper and
grow it deeper and grow it bigger and keep it
moving down the road, but like we still have to
also explain to each other what throws up those walls.
I mean, we've had a lot of those conversations and
avoided exactly where I'm going, Yes, while it's going up,
(39:49):
So like you just have to like communicate that talking.
That's crazy to look to listen to someone like Bonnie
say stuff because it's like ninety three years in She's
like telling truth and I'm like, God, it biblical. The
truth set you free, So like why do we just
not say it for what it is. I'm not saying
you have to spill like your dirty laundry. Yeah, yeah,
let's be truthful. Yeah, I mean to like the world,
(40:11):
but in your marriage is to just be honest. Like
there's reason the reason I fight the way I fights
because I watched a certain type of fight growing up.
That doesn't make it okay. And he doesn't want to
fight at all because he never saw any fights growing up.
Yeah that's so it's like and I'm like, well that's
not going to be fine. Yeah. Yeah, I am feisty. Yeah.
(40:31):
I told I told boyfriend that I was like, I
cannot fight how I fought. But I don't think I
would ever fight the way that I thought in my
ex because a there's not the turmoil that's in the relationship,
but also I'm so careful now with my words and
like how I want to say it, and like knowing
when I feel something come up, I'll be like I
(40:52):
need a minute because what I'm gonna say next is
probably not going to come out how I wanted and
how you were, how what you deserve, you know. And
so when we have really gotten to that point at all,
like we've not had to fight, which has been amazing,
but like yeah, you know, like it's we have like
maybe um conversations and it's just like it's to know
(41:17):
that like how to like talk better and just community
like hey, that kind of like brought me the wrong way,
and like do like, oh, like let's talk about it.
Like it's so such a better way than like not
being like you're kind of retraining yourself to to just
like stop for a minute, not just react. I basically
putting into practice the things that I learned in couple
therapy with my acts that we couldn't do together because
(41:38):
there was just too much turmoil. It just was never
going to be able to like but like now that
there isn't that I'm actually saying, I feel why and
and then it's like oh, that's it, okay. Yeah, and
so you know how like sometimes people will say like
so people will say like I'm witty or whatever. Well,
the opposite swing of that is not charming at all.
(42:00):
So the back end of that is actually ugly. It's
really ugly. And so now there's been times we're all
say things like nothing good is going to happen from here, yeah,
because I just know. I know Michigan Detroit Kristen is
like two minutes, you know, like I just know it's
gonna get scrappy and it's not going to be good
and it's not gonna be what I want to say
(42:20):
or what like just knowing to went to like exit
the battlefield for a minute, which is like it's so
hard when you want to be heard and or just
cut sometimes like you know, or you're like I just
gotta like say it. But I think sometimes it's not
avoidant to just exit the battlefield. Feel like this is
nothing good it's going to happen, and I just need
(42:42):
a minute. Minutes are good. And I think it's so
nice to be respectful of remembering who you're talking to
and the person that you say you love. It's like
treat that person like the respect that they deserve. Yeah,
and also you'll get that back, Like I'm like, you're
my best friend. I don't want because you believe back,
so don't make me do it. But it's because we're hurt.
(43:04):
Is Like I remember the things I said in cash relationships.
I was also hurting, so I said things, Yeah, hurt
people hurt people don't get hurt. Hurt thing you what
is it? What is the thing that saying? Um, you choose,
like you choose the healthiness of it, which basically where
you're at, Like healthy attracts healthy, unhealthy attracts unhealthy. So
(43:26):
like that's kind of been true in a lot of
my relationships. Now I feel like I'm finally like healthy
ment healthy finally because I had but I had to,
I had to jumped to ye, you'll never be able
to find you, are you know? Yeah? Look at that? Guys.
All right, great episode, See you next week.
Host
Jana Kramer
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