October 26, 2023 • 38 mins
A familiar voice returns to Whine Down after years away. Jana's ex-husband Mike Caussin is here and ready to revisit the past, be honest about the present, and look to the future.
Join Jana and Mike for their first time together on air since April 18th, 2021.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
All Right guys, Part two, Welcome ladies and Mike to
the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Hello, Hey him, Mike, Hi, Hello Michael.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
The first time I looked into your eyes, oh god,
I can't.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I was like, oh, I know you guys have had
a few.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Well, I feel like we're both similar in that sense,
a little bit like where we both kind of want
to avoid each other and don't look at each other's eyes.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's like, it's like when we saw each other at
the movie theater. Do you remember that? You don't remember that?
It was awful.
Speaker 5 (00:39):
I saw It.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Was like we were both there with the kids.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I was like, hey Joie, Hey Jace, and then I
like run away and then we go up to the
register and the hands up the one right next to me.
Speaker 5 (00:51):
Ago.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
It was I think it's the first time I really
saw you though, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Think so, this is really my first time seeing Mike really. Yeah.
I'm not on the soccer circuit. I'm not in the
movie theater, and so we have not seen each other.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, it's been we were saying an episode, first episode,
how it's been two and a half years. I mean
since we even did you know we've we were married.
It's it's been a minute.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
That's crazy. It's crazy. It kind of feels like yesterday
and also a lifetime ago. Honestly, No, there's yeah, we
have two babies to show for it. So it had
to be.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
All right, everybody raise your head.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
If you're wildly uncomfortable. Right, I have a question to
open it up. Why does Mike dig wear his shoes
in here? And we do? Oh, you're not new.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
For the comedy relie.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
We got to do something. Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So I think a big piece of divorce is divorce
and friendships as well.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
And so.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Obviously, something that I was going to say and when
I was talking with the girls early on the first
podcast was in a way we've uh we have a
great relationship now a new relationship. And I always wondered
if it was hard for the girls because all of
a sudden, like okay, Mike and Air good, but like
we need to be good because for the kids. But
(02:18):
you guys have had your whords. Yeah, we're like what
about us and Mike?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
And so it's I'm like.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Christal a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, And so I think it's hard because it's like
they were your friends too, but you just you know,
when people leave divorces, it's we people friends kind of
separate a little bit, right, and that can be hard
for all parties involved, exactly, especially when things can.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Be uncomfortable, like at the moment. Want to.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Know, I guess not.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
All right, Well this is a great thirty message. Okay,
Well I have a question that maybe well it's going
to go we'll go in fast. But it relates to that, okay,
because the last tame, last time I think I actually
saw you was in your old home, and it is
absolutely incredible to me that I could avoid someone as
(03:10):
big as you as much as I did, Like you
did not exist to me, and that was hard for me,
because you know me enough to know that's hard for me.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I also I was telling kat this I in the
compassion human part of me because I'm very much Janna
first like you, and we've all talked about this on
wine Down before that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I loved you as long as Janna loved you. Jane
didn't love you.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I was getting the garbage bags and extra set of
hands because you're a big guy. Correct, Okay, read about
that in the good fight we did. Yeah, so, but
in the compassionate part of me, I also know a
lot about you from us being on the road and
being friends, and I know your history, and I know
fourteen year old Mike and what has set the tone
for fourteen year old Mike's life and the habits that
(04:03):
fourteen year old Mike picked up that had stayed with
him through marriage. And so the compassionate part of me
wants to know, how did it feel when you watch
it all dismantled the way it dismantled, because it was
it feels to me quick once it was decided, it
(04:25):
was like we're moving you out. You are like it
just was. It just happened so fast that I also
wondered was there a moment in your walk, because we
hear about Jamna's walk, But was there a moment where
you thought, I'm really just watching this all fall apart
like my friends are, because there's a guy group at
(04:48):
that point, there's a husband group, there's you know, I've
been on Wine Down with you and Jana. We've been
driving through Texas. We had a two tall mic series,
like we've had these histories with each other, and all
of a sudden, all of the people that have like
brought you into the fold. Are also like drawbridge is up.
God saved the Queen.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
Yeah, that's exactly how it felt good, right, No, none
of that's a surprise to me. That's the thing. It's like,
as much as we were all friends too, I knew that, yeah, right,
(05:28):
But that's part of all, even going back to nine
years ago when I first moved here for Jana, right, Like,
it's just I left all of my people, my friends,
and so I knew immediately everyone that I became friends
with we're going to be attached to Janna. It's hard
to go back because it does, like Catherine said, it
(05:49):
feels like yesterday, but also ten years ago, two and
a half years ago, and a lot has changed since then,
so it's hard to really recall exactly what I was feeling.
I just knew the difference at that point was as
(06:11):
bad as it was and painful as it was for everyone,
I was like, this, this just has to happen a
little relieving, partly terrifying, isolating. I was felt completely alone,
but it needed to happen. And one thing that's coming
(06:37):
up for me now that I said to my therapist,
then to my my, my men's groups, my whatever, I don't.
I don't say this necessarily with pride. I say it
to affirm how badly that needed to happen. I didn't
(06:59):
shed a tear year after we separated and divorced, not
because I didn't care. I truly believed. I was like,
because this is unlike me. I'm still an emotional person.
I've always been like an emotional person, but I physically
couldn't cry. And what that was telling me was like,
(07:24):
God is like literally hardening my heart right now. He's like,
I got to get you, you guys out of this cycle,
because that's helping nobody. It's not helping Jana, it's not
helping you, not helping your kids, not helping your families,
your friends, nobody. And that lasted for a long time
(07:54):
where it just no matter how much I talked about
it from a therapeutical standpoint, spiritual standpoint, I just never
really purged that emotion because it was something bigger than myself.
Not to get hokey on it, but spiritually it was
something bigger than me. To be like this is ending now. Period.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
You don't think it's a detachment because you do have
a history of detaching, right.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
And I know the difference. That's that's the thing where
it's like, Okay, this is this is different. This isn't
me detaching to save myself. This is out of my hands.
At this point, I can kind of.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I mean, I don't relate to the not crying piece
I was like or on crid bo days, but the
moment that I worried about in the laundry, why didn't
we didn't fight back?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
I didn't fight back.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That was my that moment for you where I was like, oh,
it's done because the fight was gone, and that was
like that I can so I can relate to that
moment too, or it's like a yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
We did you Did you ever feel when y'all were
going through this though that it was toxic and then
it needed to end?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Did you ever feel that way?
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Yeah? Of course, Yeah definitely. But at that point, part
of me didn't know what was real and what was
not sure right, because so much of our identity was
that it's like Mike messes up poor Janna, same narrative,
(09:35):
different time of year. Uh, we talk about it, we
write about it, we do all these things, we do
work on it, and it was just like this cyclical
lifestyle that we were never getting out of.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
But the piece of that that was repetitive was you
also me.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I couldn't like, I don't want to just like give
it all Mike. But it's hard turn to ask Mike no,
But I think it was. It's not totally fair just
to put that no no. But the pattern of the
that's what I'm saying, that was yes him, and then
it would bring out But I told you the anxious attachment.
I've said that to you. I'm kind of protection a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
That's fine. Mike's not really scared of me, let's be honest.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
But I'm just patterns, but also in the in his
patterns without without his patterns and with his patterns here.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yeah, I'm just this is the cause and effect I'm talking.
I'm trying to get out of those no like I mean,
I'm just I'm also asking questions that listeners would want
to know. You guys were on this, This was your
show for a long time, and you know, like people
want to know that stuff, like because that is how
(10:51):
it looked. It looked like you do this. This happens,
there's apology, Jana cries, you know, but I saw and
I said this to Jana before, and I've said it
to you, like I always thought you guys would be
the best of friends. I always saw you as best friends.
I was like, if you guys could just get it
together on the marriage side, I just knew it would
(11:15):
be epic. Like I've always seen you as homies. So
that I think was That's kind of the thing for
me is I'm like, does it feel like I watched
her anxious attachment? I watched it sometimes I suffocated for you.
I knew why she was doing it, though, because what
other choices she have, Like she has to check and
(11:36):
double check and triple check and then sit down in
a check in and a check check because if she doesn't,
something's going to slip through the cracks, and something's going
to make the bottom fall out, and something's going to
take her trust away again.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Yeah, I don't disagree with you, right, you know. That's
the thing over the last two and a few years,
I own my pard and everything and I always and
I have on my part now. Yeah, and that's the
whole thing where it got It's got so cyclical or
even in my mind at the time, I would still
(12:11):
try to put on Jamie. I was like, well, if
you just gave me some space, this wouldn't happen. Is
there some fact and truth behind that? Sure to a degree,
But that's how bad that cycle got where we didn't
even know where it beginning ended it anymore. It's like,
did it really begin with me doing something again? Or
(12:31):
did what? The same pattern was there, but it was
so lost that at that point it didn't even matter.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
What would you say to couples then going through that piece,
because I think that's the hard part because I get
a lot of people that say, do you believe in
your book? And I still to this day will say yes,
I do, absolutely, But there's a piece of me that
also goes when that trust is broken. Maybe one you
(13:00):
can get over it, but the amount of times I
don't know if that's actually I don't know, and I
don't know if that's just a personal like a It
takes a very strong person to let go of that
resentment and actually trust them. Because I would say I
trusted you, I never trusted you.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
You say that you didn't. It was the same thing.
So it was like.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
You did not not resentle because it's like we were
saying things we didn't really believe it we wanted to
believe it. But I'm like, I still struggle with that answer.
When people go, well, if they've done it again, I'm like,
I don't know what even to say because I know
what it did to me not trusting and you know
what resentment and feeling suffocated to you. So it's like,
(13:45):
I don't I think people could get over in fidelity
if it happens maybe once, but I don't know if
I could if twice, how people can form a new
because I can't let that stuff go.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I realized that in me.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
Yeah, I don't think. I'm just curious that's your case
case basis, it takes special people to get over it
even once. Now, what I will say, and I'm with you,
I've defended the book where I'm like, I still believe
in the things that we talked about in there. We
were just in a place that was too far gone.
But I will say this now having been through all
(14:20):
of that, and you can probably attest to this if
something were to happen in another relationship done and because
we spend a lifetime dealing with that, and so I
don't know. For the people that ask, I don't know
(14:42):
that that's my answer I don't know because I don't
know your relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I think it also depends on the willingness for people
to want to dig deep and make a change, and
also the actual just like chemistry and workability of two people. Yeah,
I was because the ones cheer, I'm like, well, yeah,
I've cheated in my past. I wouldn't cheat in this relationship.
(15:08):
Just because he cheated in the past doesn't mean he'll
cheat in his her next relationship. So it's like the
ones cheater, I was cheated, not really, but maybe in
the mirror. It's like it's just sore. It's like you
just don't know the ins and outs of the relationship.
So it's like I just I always say for me personally,
once trust is broken, I have to physically walk away
or I will become controlling, manipulated, you know, suffocating, intolerable.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I will agree.
Speaker 5 (15:29):
I'll say this because I've obviously been asked this question
a lot, and whether it's I'm dating or whatever, or
people ask me it's like, oh, will you do you
think you'll cheat again? And my my whole concept of
that has flipped, where before I would answer is like no,
(15:50):
because I wouldn't want to hurt you, right, Like I
wouldn't want to hurt the other person At this point,
I'm like, it has nothing to do with not wanting
to hurt the other person, has everything to do selfishly
with I refuse to be in a relationship where I
feel like I'm in a down position. Ever again, ever again,
(16:10):
Like that's the thing. If there's nothing else, if I
am actually just a terrible person and a piece of crap,
if there's anything else stopping me, it's that I refuse
to be live in a down position?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Did you want me? I always wondered.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I'm like, did you want me to do something so
that you could have a reason to be out, so
that you wouldn't be the down?
Speaker 5 (16:51):
Not so I wouldn't not so I would have an out,
but sure so the playing field.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Was Yeah, really glarn a lot of airreor.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
I think that's something we all kind of felt like
that was probably the case.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Catherine, I think you've got some where y'all's relationship. Not
to take away from none of our guyses, but I
think there's some stuff that maybe you'd like to clear
to not have the.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
I wish people could be in this room.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I know writing cut the tension with an eye.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Well, first of all, hearing you say the cycle, I'm
really nervous, Like this is hard for me. I want
you to know that, and I'll probably cry, so just
bear with.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Me, but say why, because I think it was beautiful
what you said last night on the plane.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Hearing you say the cycle, first of all, I want
you to know more than anything that that's what I
always saw. It wasn't just Mike the cheater, and I
know it probably felt that way to you, but I
need you to know that I saw the cycle. I
saw what happened. I saw how she reacted, I saw
how she did the things that she did. I truly
(18:03):
could see all of it. But I had to be
on her side. She's my best friend, she's you know.
And I still struggle with that now because I feel
like obviously we lost a friendship, but like I loved
you through it too, you know, And it was really hard.
It was a really hard place to be in. And
(18:25):
I don't I don't take back anything that I said.
I don't take back anything because I truly, deep down
knew y'all could not make it work. I wanted to
believe her when she wanted to stay, and she wanted
to try to, and every time she did, I made
the decision to still love you and still try with y'all. Essentially,
I know it wasn't I wasn't in the marriage, but
(18:46):
at times I felt like I was, and maybe I
shouldn't have been, but I was put in that position
at times. And there's really not much I even want
to ask you. There's not much. I just want you
to know that more than any thing, because it hurt
me too, you know, I mean, we felt I think
(19:07):
as friends, we all felt lied to, we all felt
like we had a friendship that was ripped apart. Yeah,
and it's just it's been. It's been actually really hard
on me. And I don't even remember what I said
in the first one, but it's you know, it's it's
not easy being on this side either.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
But I also want you to know I hear you.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Even though you haven't said this, I'm sure you feel
like it was very one sided and I just hated
you and I you know, I like to think that
I still treated you well during that time. I don't remember.
Maybe I had some resentment too. I'm not even.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
Sure I appreciate that. The thing is like I've remember
had necessarily anything against either one of you guys or
anyone else, because it wasn't a surprise to me, because
(20:03):
like we talked about the beginning of this episode, like I,
you guys are going to default to Jana. I get that, but.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I defaulted to you so many times on behalf of
yourself behind the scenes too. It wasn't like she can
attest to that. I was always like, I.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
That doesn't surprise me, and I believe that when you
say it. That's the thing, it's my thing, is like,
all right, after all this stuff happens, what am I
going to say?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Right?
Speaker 5 (20:37):
How many times have you guys, over the last almost
ten years that we've known each other, how many times
have you heard me say I'm sorry? Right? And how
many times did something happen again? Right? And you guys
were hurt again and Channa was hurt again.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Well, and I'm not even carrying it like I'm like,
you hurt me personally. I think I just I think
I just saw more in you than you even saw
on yourself. I got sad because you guys have two
beautiful kids.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I think it's all of it, that's just the one.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, I mean also friendship, like you know me, Mike,
like I don't like to be a dick to anybody, Like,
don't make me be a dick to you? Is where
I was getting to, you know. But then it also
is just like I was so mad at you because
I just kept being like, fucking get it together.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
We have a.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Family here, like you have a family. And I get
it now, And I even got it then. I think
I understood it so much, and that's maybe why I
was so mad, as I was just like, I know,
this isn't just a Jana thing. I know this isn't
just a Mic thing. But I was like, can somebody
just get out of the cycle so we can just
and listen? I see it now. The thirty thousand feet
(21:55):
perspective is stunning. I mean, I love Alan, I love
who Jenna is. Janna's a different human. This is a
completely different Janna than you were married to. This is
a different Jana than people knew in the Good Fight.
I mean, the amount of absolute trench work this chick
is done, and she's not even saying I'm done, I'm healed.
(22:16):
It's just different and it's calmer, and it's more certain,
and it's honest, and I get why it all had
to fall apart. I just want you to know that
I was never going like I mean, it was finally
where I just look at channel I was like, it's
just time because I was watching it all be the same,
(22:39):
and I hated it, and I hated it for you
because I actually do think you can be a really
good dude. I think that's where my frustration came in.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Yeah, and I know that I am and.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I mean, I'm Juris out, but for me was gien.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
And I agree with you with the things you're about China.
Going back to what you originally said, it's like, you know,
we you know, we had kids and we had a
family with our group, even you saying that when I
look at it from the outside, yes, But then when
I put myself back into where I was then not
(23:21):
nothing against you guys or anybody, I still felt alone.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Sure I can see that actually right.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
Like I felt like and again and you guys, it's
not that anyone whether it's your husband's or you guys
directly or anybody else that was in our life and
no one did anything directly for me to feel this way.
It was my own doing over time, but we all
want those fox whole friends, right, like we all have
(23:49):
those people in our life. Here at that time when
things are just towards that end, I felt, I was like,
I don't have anyone in my foxhole in terms of
like our closer group, right.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Were you in your own foxhol.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
Yeah? Well that was the thing I thought. I was like,
this is all I got. I don't have them alone
because just because of whatever reasons, again mostly stemming from
my own decision making over the years and all of that.
But that's part of where, just like that cycle needed
to end because this is as much as yes, the
(24:42):
only shame that I have that still comes up is
stuff with the kids, Right, would I change anything? Still? No,
because I see where Jan is at and I was
just on the previous episode, I was talking to Mark
(25:04):
and how much I love Alan.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
I mean, who doesn't love Alan?
Speaker 5 (25:08):
I told her. I said the same joke to to
Mark this episode, I was like, Jana, how does that
make you feel You're not the prettiest in the relationship anymore?
I mean, this guy, we're at soccer practice. It's like
a nice autumn day, like pea.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Coat on straight out of the UK.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
His hair was flowing.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Of course he always I swear.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
He turned to the right and I was kind of
back behind them, like catching up to me. He turned
the right and it's like the wind hit it just right.
I was like, is he slow motion right now?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
In slow motion? Also, if you made an Alan like
action figure, it would be Peacoat not sold separately. That's
like how he is in my brain, dapper Allan, Where
is he pop out right now?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Because so funny.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
So I you know, I might like him more than Jana, but.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
That's though that makes me happy.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
But that's a testament to the person that Jean has found,
the person that she found that she deserves right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
And I will say that the one thing of anything.
And you know, Kat was asking about, like, you know, apologies,
and like did you think I get apology wanted? And
I said, there's one thing that he said to me
at the very out of all the years, that was
everything I ever needed to hear. It wasn't the full
(26:29):
apology that I thought I deserved, or this or that
or the other you said to me when I got
engaged and you knew, you knew at that time I
was pregnant, but you said, after everything that I put
you through and you've been through, you deserve this and
I'm really happy for you. And it was like that's
everything I needed to hear, and I believed you and
(26:51):
that is the.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
That was. It was beautiful.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So I just I really appreciate that comment because that
has that was the one thing that was like.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Okay, well you're welcome and I meant it. And on
a lighter note, can we tell the pregnancy story?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Oh my god, did.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Jana tell you guys?
Speaker 3 (27:13):
So yeah, don't you tell you guys?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
I don't know out Oh yeah no.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so for those of you listening.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yeah, we can tell the story. It's so really funny.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
So we're sitting at soccer practice. Was this in the spring? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
The day does matter because the protesting.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
On your spring spring and we're at.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
March it was like March twenty fourth to twenty six whatever.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
It was dating Joys soccer practice.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, that was so So it was in April when
I when you found out.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Oh no, no, no, no, that wasn't even that was.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Bringing on the phone.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
Was on the phone, that's right.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
You didn't say anything.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
I didn't say anything. Yeah, So Jane was said she's like, hey,
can you get the kids or something or whatever. It's
like I just haven't been feeling well. I'm like, yeah, sure,
and then like a week goes by and then I
hear on the phone obviously I know Jane. I'm like,
you still don't feel like She's like no, I'm like
it's been a week, like what and then she makes
this audible sound over the phone that I've heard her
(28:16):
make two other.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
In you would figure it out first.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
And so she makes the sound like this little dry heave,
throw up.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Sound, and I was just like, you don't say anything.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
No, I said what I said. I was like, what
was that? She's like, I was like, what was that noise?
Speaker 3 (28:38):
And immediately when he asked me, I was like I
was like.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
I was like Janna, I was like, are you I
don't know what's talking about.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
No. No.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
And then it's like a couple of days later, we
had the soccer practice and we were.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
At Jason's surgery was a surgery, and I looked up
and he's just like, you're still not feeling good. He's
like Jana, and I was like m m mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I was like, yeah, long story short. He totally I
called her to keep that from him.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, He's like, are you pregnant? And I was just
like mm hmmm. And then You're just like, I'm.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
Really happy for I was uncle Mike here, I.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Okay, let's not with the old before the words. I
was trying to think of funny stories. But then, of course,
as I'm like going through these questions, I'm like, remember
when he cornered me in the bathroom, and do you remember?
Speaker 1 (29:50):
It's not a funny story, That's what Jenny was.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Like, no, And I was like, you don't remember that.
It was like dancing with the stars. After she first
found out you'd been away from a while. You come
back and she doesn't tell me, mind you that you're
coming back, and I'm there, and.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
So I'm like awesome.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
You know. So I'm like in the bathroom, do my makeup,
and you walk in the bathroom.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
There's nowhere for me to go. I am cornered into makeup,
just letting you.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Talk, and I'm just like, but I mean that was
a I mean a huge memory for me.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I mean it was it was big of you.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
Honestly, you know, you came in and you apologize to me,
and you you know, whatever.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
But anyway, so.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
I was trying to think of stories and I just
kept coming up with these and she's like, these aren't
funny stories, like you know it was, And then I
was like I did appreciate it though when he with
a hand.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
On the table the stories. But in my mind it
was funny.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Remember when we ruined the Gamelberg Gatlinburg. Is someone farted,
You're like.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
I didn't fart.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
We were just thrill us in there, like I'm not
a grown up, like saying I'm a grown up. I
didn't far.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Other funny now though, so that's the good news.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
I remember when we did wind Down Texas, and that
was I felt like, I felt like we were really funny.
We were thank you. And I remember you were too
tall for everything we tried to put you in, and
so then it became a series too tall Mike, and
so Carl, Carl, Carl and I were taking pictures of
(31:31):
you when you didn't know in tiny.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Space stop it.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
He would drive the jeep that we were renting. We
had to go like four hours and they love murder
mystery shows or whatever, and I was like, I'm in
my own personal health and so mom and Dad were
in the front and they're driving and he like Mike.
I was like, there's no way he doesn't have like
an actual kink because he was like so hunged over,
so too tall. Mike was a good memory.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Is there anything as we wrap up this episode that
you guys want to say to move on?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Let the past be the past.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Obviously it's long gone, but you know, to move on
and start a new chapter in this friendship.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Mine is quick, So Kat, would you like to go first?
I feel like I want you to feel like good relief.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I want us to be in a room and be
able to get along. First of all, I want to apologize.
This will be hard, but I want to say that
I am sorry because even though I didn't really have
a choice, the last thing I said to you will
always stick with me. It in the divorce situation, which
(32:43):
I'm sure you know remember that was very very hard
for me and.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I have.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
I was doing what I knew she needed me to do,
and I you know, I just I said to you,
you just trust me, and then you walked out the door,
and I was just like I.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Could I could barely live with it.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I mean, I'm just gonna be honest because I felt
like I had I knew I was doing what I
needed to for her, but for myself and for you,
I just it was hard. It was and I want
to apologize for that. I don't know how I should
have done it differently. I don't know how I would
have done it differently, but I do feel like I
own owe you an apology.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
I appreciate that, and I appreciate that you feel like
you even owe me an apology. And for those of
you listening, I mean, it wasn't It was just Catherine
saying that I don't need to go see GM. So
(33:49):
you were doing what any.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, you walked outside, and you walk outside. It's in
the book, it's a chapter outside.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Done the driveway. I see this guy get out of
his car, just waddling over to the driveway and I'm
just like, okay, and he's like, are you might costan?
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (34:07):
You go?
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Could you see me in the window? Oh my god,
did you see us?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Video?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
I literally cam and I just watched you from the
video and it was and she's, you know, screaming in
the bedroom, and I just like after that, I just
like sat there for a minute and I was like,
I mean honestly, like I needed to do.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
De talks for a while after all of this.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
It was a lot for y'all especially, but it was
also a lot on us too, you know. And that's
but yes, I felt like I owe you an apology
for that, because that just never really set well with me.
I think what I was trying to say to you,
I just didn't have more words, was I'm actually looking
out for you too, And it's how I felt in
(34:53):
that moment, It's what I wanted to say. That's why
I just kind of looked in your eyes and I
was like, just trust me, like I knew you'd get
here eventually.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
I just could so see that. I just knew that
it had to happen. It did, you know.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
So, But that's that's all I wanted to be able
to be in a room and be good. That's that's
you know. I hope that we can be good. I
hope that you don't have resentment towards me, and.
Speaker 5 (35:18):
No, I I honestly don't. And that's where, you know,
I never I didn't have a reason the way I
saw it for the last couple of years, and obviously
like the fact that we're having this conversation, the whole
reason why it's good that we've waited so long. Sure, right,
(35:40):
But at the same time, I was like, I don't
have any reason to talk to y'all like over the
last two and a half years, Like I haven't for
what again, for what reason? Like what what would have done?
Who would benefit in that moment until the moment came
like this more organically podcasts or.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Not organically being video from.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
Microphones and cameras, but for it to come up in
the way that it did, because other than that, like what,
I don't know what I would have said to either
one of you guys.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
I also think it's like God's protection over it too,
because I think what I would have said to you
a year ago, even or even right after it happened
would have been like very sex in the city, like no,
you know, And I think.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
We needed Jane to get to this place.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
That's where it hit me, Like, yes, I've had some
you know, things about it, and i've you know, felt
a way, But when I saw that y'all were good,
I'm like, all right, it's time it's time for us
to all be okay, you know, like let's all like
we're adults. What happened happened. We all know everyone had
a part in it. I will never fully blame you ever,
(36:57):
And I'm not saying I blame you either. It is
it's a it's a relationship that wasn't working, you know.
So I'm just thankful. Honestly, I'm really really grateful that
we could sit down and talk it talk it out.
Speaker 5 (37:09):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
That's really it for me too, because I honestly, you know,
I don't do well at not liking people. It takes
a lot for me to not like somebody. And I
never disliked you. I was disappointed, and I think I
felt like I just thought you could always do better.
I just kind of always knew you guys weren't going
to do better. You weren't going to be able to
(37:30):
do better inside of this. No, And I just don't
want to have to feel like I have to avoid
you because you're massive, and I just don't dislike you.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
We're all on the same page. We all like each other.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Well, thanks for coming on. Stay tuned for another short
little wrap up.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Stay tuned. We should have brought one h
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
All Right guys, Part two, Welcome ladies and Mike to
the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Hello, Hey him, Mike, Hi, Hello Michael.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
The first time I looked into your eyes, oh god,
I can't.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I was like, oh, I know you guys have had
a few.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Well, I feel like we're both similar in that sense,
a little bit like where we both kind of want
to avoid each other and don't look at each other's eyes.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's like, it's like when we saw each other at
the movie theater. Do you remember that? You don't remember that?
It was awful.
Speaker 5 (00:39):
I saw It.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Was like we were both there with the kids.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I was like, hey Joie, Hey Jace, and then I
like run away and then we go up to the
register and the hands up the one right next to me.
Speaker 5 (00:51):
Ago.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
It was I think it's the first time I really
saw you though, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Think so, this is really my first time seeing Mike really. Yeah.
I'm not on the soccer circuit. I'm not in the
movie theater, and so we have not seen each other.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, it's been we were saying an episode, first episode,
how it's been two and a half years. I mean
since we even did you know we've we were married.
It's it's been a minute.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
That's crazy. It's crazy. It kind of feels like yesterday
and also a lifetime ago. Honestly, No, there's yeah, we
have two babies to show for it. So it had
to be.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
All right, everybody raise your head.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
If you're wildly uncomfortable. Right, I have a question to
open it up. Why does Mike dig wear his shoes
in here? And we do? Oh, you're not new.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
For the comedy relie.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
We got to do something. Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So I think a big piece of divorce is divorce
and friendships as well.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
And so.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Obviously, something that I was going to say and when
I was talking with the girls early on the first
podcast was in a way we've uh we have a
great relationship now a new relationship. And I always wondered
if it was hard for the girls because all of
a sudden, like okay, Mike and Air good, but like
we need to be good because for the kids. But
(02:18):
you guys have had your whords. Yeah, we're like what
about us and Mike?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
And so it's I'm like.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Christal a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, And so I think it's hard because it's like
they were your friends too, but you just you know,
when people leave divorces, it's we people friends kind of
separate a little bit, right, and that can be hard
for all parties involved, exactly, especially when things can.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Be uncomfortable, like at the moment. Want to.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Know, I guess not.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
All right, Well this is a great thirty message. Okay,
Well I have a question that maybe well it's going
to go we'll go in fast. But it relates to that, okay,
because the last tame, last time I think I actually
saw you was in your old home, and it is
absolutely incredible to me that I could avoid someone as
(03:10):
big as you as much as I did, Like you
did not exist to me, and that was hard for me,
because you know me enough to know that's hard for me.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I also I was telling kat this I in the
compassion human part of me because I'm very much Janna
first like you, and we've all talked about this on
wine Down before that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I loved you as long as Janna loved you. Jane
didn't love you.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I was getting the garbage bags and extra set of
hands because you're a big guy. Correct, Okay, read about
that in the good fight we did. Yeah, so, but
in the compassionate part of me, I also know a
lot about you from us being on the road and
being friends, and I know your history, and I know
fourteen year old Mike and what has set the tone
for fourteen year old Mike's life and the habits that
(04:03):
fourteen year old Mike picked up that had stayed with
him through marriage. And so the compassionate part of me
wants to know, how did it feel when you watch
it all dismantled the way it dismantled, because it was
it feels to me quick once it was decided, it
(04:25):
was like we're moving you out. You are like it
just was. It just happened so fast that I also
wondered was there a moment in your walk, because we
hear about Jamna's walk, But was there a moment where
you thought, I'm really just watching this all fall apart
like my friends are, because there's a guy group at
(04:48):
that point, there's a husband group, there's you know, I've
been on Wine Down with you and Jana. We've been
driving through Texas. We had a two tall mic series,
like we've had these histories with each other, and all
of a sudden, all of the people that have like
brought you into the fold. Are also like drawbridge is up.
God saved the Queen.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
Yeah, that's exactly how it felt good, right, No, none
of that's a surprise to me. That's the thing. It's like,
as much as we were all friends too, I knew that, yeah, right,
(05:28):
But that's part of all, even going back to nine
years ago when I first moved here for Jana, right, Like,
it's just I left all of my people, my friends,
and so I knew immediately everyone that I became friends
with we're going to be attached to Janna. It's hard
to go back because it does, like Catherine said, it
(05:49):
feels like yesterday, but also ten years ago, two and
a half years ago, and a lot has changed since then,
so it's hard to really recall exactly what I was feeling.
I just knew the difference at that point was as
(06:11):
bad as it was and painful as it was for everyone,
I was like, this, this just has to happen a
little relieving, partly terrifying, isolating. I was felt completely alone,
but it needed to happen. And one thing that's coming
(06:37):
up for me now that I said to my therapist,
then to my my, my men's groups, my whatever, I don't.
I don't say this necessarily with pride. I say it
to affirm how badly that needed to happen. I didn't
(06:59):
shed a tear year after we separated and divorced, not
because I didn't care. I truly believed. I was like,
because this is unlike me. I'm still an emotional person.
I've always been like an emotional person, but I physically
couldn't cry. And what that was telling me was like,
(07:24):
God is like literally hardening my heart right now. He's like,
I got to get you, you guys out of this cycle,
because that's helping nobody. It's not helping Jana, it's not
helping you, not helping your kids, not helping your families,
your friends, nobody. And that lasted for a long time
(07:54):
where it just no matter how much I talked about
it from a therapeutical standpoint, spiritual standpoint, I just never
really purged that emotion because it was something bigger than myself.
Not to get hokey on it, but spiritually it was
something bigger than me. To be like this is ending now. Period.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
You don't think it's a detachment because you do have
a history of detaching, right.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
And I know the difference. That's that's the thing where
it's like, Okay, this is this is different. This isn't
me detaching to save myself. This is out of my hands.
At this point, I can kind of.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I mean, I don't relate to the not crying piece
I was like or on crid bo days, but the
moment that I worried about in the laundry, why didn't
we didn't fight back?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
I didn't fight back.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That was my that moment for you where I was like, oh,
it's done because the fight was gone, and that was
like that I can so I can relate to that
moment too, or it's like a yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
We did you Did you ever feel when y'all were
going through this though that it was toxic and then
it needed to end?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Did you ever feel that way?
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Yeah? Of course, Yeah definitely. But at that point, part
of me didn't know what was real and what was
not sure right, because so much of our identity was
that it's like Mike messes up poor Janna, same narrative,
(09:35):
different time of year. Uh, we talk about it, we
write about it, we do all these things, we do
work on it, and it was just like this cyclical
lifestyle that we were never getting out of.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
But the piece of that that was repetitive was you
also me.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I couldn't like, I don't want to just like give
it all Mike. But it's hard turn to ask Mike no,
But I think it was. It's not totally fair just
to put that no no. But the pattern of the
that's what I'm saying, that was yes him, and then
it would bring out But I told you the anxious attachment.
I've said that to you. I'm kind of protection a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
That's fine. Mike's not really scared of me, let's be honest.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
But I'm just patterns, but also in the in his
patterns without without his patterns and with his patterns here.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yeah, I'm just this is the cause and effect I'm talking.
I'm trying to get out of those no like I mean,
I'm just I'm also asking questions that listeners would want
to know. You guys were on this, This was your
show for a long time, and you know, like people
want to know that stuff, like because that is how
(10:51):
it looked. It looked like you do this. This happens,
there's apology, Jana cries, you know, but I saw and
I said this to Jana before, and I've said it
to you, like I always thought you guys would be
the best of friends. I always saw you as best friends.
I was like, if you guys could just get it
together on the marriage side, I just knew it would
(11:15):
be epic. Like I've always seen you as homies. So
that I think was That's kind of the thing for
me is I'm like, does it feel like I watched
her anxious attachment? I watched it sometimes I suffocated for you.
I knew why she was doing it, though, because what
other choices she have, Like she has to check and
(11:36):
double check and triple check and then sit down in
a check in and a check check because if she doesn't,
something's going to slip through the cracks, and something's going
to make the bottom fall out, and something's going to
take her trust away again.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Yeah, I don't disagree with you, right, you know. That's
the thing over the last two and a few years,
I own my pard and everything and I always and
I have on my part now. Yeah, and that's the
whole thing where it got It's got so cyclical or
even in my mind at the time, I would still
(12:11):
try to put on Jamie. I was like, well, if
you just gave me some space, this wouldn't happen. Is
there some fact and truth behind that? Sure to a degree,
But that's how bad that cycle got where we didn't
even know where it beginning ended it anymore. It's like,
did it really begin with me doing something again? Or
(12:31):
did what? The same pattern was there, but it was
so lost that at that point it didn't even matter.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
What would you say to couples then going through that piece,
because I think that's the hard part because I get
a lot of people that say, do you believe in
your book? And I still to this day will say yes,
I do, absolutely, But there's a piece of me that
also goes when that trust is broken. Maybe one you
(13:00):
can get over it, but the amount of times I
don't know if that's actually I don't know, and I
don't know if that's just a personal like a It
takes a very strong person to let go of that
resentment and actually trust them. Because I would say I
trusted you, I never trusted you.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
You say that you didn't. It was the same thing.
So it was like.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
You did not not resentle because it's like we were
saying things we didn't really believe it we wanted to
believe it. But I'm like, I still struggle with that answer.
When people go, well, if they've done it again, I'm like,
I don't know what even to say because I know
what it did to me not trusting and you know
what resentment and feeling suffocated to you. So it's like,
(13:45):
I don't I think people could get over in fidelity
if it happens maybe once, but I don't know if
I could if twice, how people can form a new
because I can't let that stuff go.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I realized that in me.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
Yeah, I don't think. I'm just curious that's your case
case basis, it takes special people to get over it
even once. Now, what I will say, and I'm with you,
I've defended the book where I'm like, I still believe
in the things that we talked about in there. We
were just in a place that was too far gone.
But I will say this now having been through all
(14:20):
of that, and you can probably attest to this if
something were to happen in another relationship done and because
we spend a lifetime dealing with that, and so I
don't know. For the people that ask, I don't know
(14:42):
that that's my answer I don't know because I don't
know your relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I think it also depends on the willingness for people
to want to dig deep and make a change, and
also the actual just like chemistry and workability of two people. Yeah,
I was because the ones cheer, I'm like, well, yeah,
I've cheated in my past. I wouldn't cheat in this relationship.
(15:08):
Just because he cheated in the past doesn't mean he'll
cheat in his her next relationship. So it's like the
ones cheater, I was cheated, not really, but maybe in
the mirror. It's like it's just sore. It's like you
just don't know the ins and outs of the relationship.
So it's like I just I always say for me personally,
once trust is broken, I have to physically walk away
or I will become controlling, manipulated, you know, suffocating, intolerable.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I will agree.
Speaker 5 (15:29):
I'll say this because I've obviously been asked this question
a lot, and whether it's I'm dating or whatever, or
people ask me it's like, oh, will you do you
think you'll cheat again? And my my whole concept of
that has flipped, where before I would answer is like no,
(15:50):
because I wouldn't want to hurt you, right, Like I
wouldn't want to hurt the other person At this point,
I'm like, it has nothing to do with not wanting
to hurt the other person, has everything to do selfishly
with I refuse to be in a relationship where I
feel like I'm in a down position. Ever again, ever again,
(16:10):
Like that's the thing. If there's nothing else, if I
am actually just a terrible person and a piece of crap,
if there's anything else stopping me, it's that I refuse
to be live in a down position?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Did you want me? I always wondered.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I'm like, did you want me to do something so
that you could have a reason to be out, so
that you wouldn't be the down?
Speaker 5 (16:51):
Not so I wouldn't not so I would have an out,
but sure so the playing field.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Was Yeah, really glarn a lot of airreor.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
I think that's something we all kind of felt like
that was probably the case.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Catherine, I think you've got some where y'all's relationship. Not
to take away from none of our guyses, but I
think there's some stuff that maybe you'd like to clear
to not have the.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
I wish people could be in this room.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I know writing cut the tension with an eye.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Well, first of all, hearing you say the cycle, I'm
really nervous, Like this is hard for me. I want
you to know that, and I'll probably cry, so just
bear with.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Me, but say why, because I think it was beautiful
what you said last night on the plane.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Hearing you say the cycle, first of all, I want
you to know more than anything that that's what I
always saw. It wasn't just Mike the cheater, and I
know it probably felt that way to you, but I
need you to know that I saw the cycle. I
saw what happened. I saw how she reacted, I saw
how she did the things that she did. I truly
(18:03):
could see all of it. But I had to be
on her side. She's my best friend, she's you know.
And I still struggle with that now because I feel
like obviously we lost a friendship, but like I loved
you through it too, you know, And it was really hard.
It was a really hard place to be in. And
(18:25):
I don't I don't take back anything that I said.
I don't take back anything because I truly, deep down
knew y'all could not make it work. I wanted to
believe her when she wanted to stay, and she wanted
to try to, and every time she did, I made
the decision to still love you and still try with y'all. Essentially,
I know it wasn't I wasn't in the marriage, but
(18:46):
at times I felt like I was, and maybe I
shouldn't have been, but I was put in that position
at times. And there's really not much I even want
to ask you. There's not much. I just want you
to know that more than any thing, because it hurt
me too, you know, I mean, we felt I think
(19:07):
as friends, we all felt lied to, we all felt
like we had a friendship that was ripped apart. Yeah,
and it's just it's been. It's been actually really hard
on me. And I don't even remember what I said
in the first one, but it's you know, it's it's
not easy being on this side either.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
But I also want you to know I hear you.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Even though you haven't said this, I'm sure you feel
like it was very one sided and I just hated
you and I you know, I like to think that
I still treated you well during that time. I don't remember.
Maybe I had some resentment too. I'm not even.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
Sure I appreciate that. The thing is like I've remember
had necessarily anything against either one of you guys or
anyone else, because it wasn't a surprise to me, because
(20:03):
like we talked about the beginning of this episode, like I,
you guys are going to default to Jana. I get that, but.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I defaulted to you so many times on behalf of
yourself behind the scenes too. It wasn't like she can
attest to that. I was always like, I.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
That doesn't surprise me, and I believe that when you
say it. That's the thing, it's my thing, is like,
all right, after all this stuff happens, what am I
going to say?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Right?
Speaker 5 (20:37):
How many times have you guys, over the last almost
ten years that we've known each other, how many times
have you heard me say I'm sorry? Right? And how
many times did something happen again? Right? And you guys
were hurt again and Channa was hurt again.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Well, and I'm not even carrying it like I'm like,
you hurt me personally. I think I just I think
I just saw more in you than you even saw
on yourself. I got sad because you guys have two
beautiful kids.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I think it's all of it, that's just the one.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, I mean also friendship, like you know me, Mike,
like I don't like to be a dick to anybody, Like,
don't make me be a dick to you? Is where
I was getting to, you know. But then it also
is just like I was so mad at you because
I just kept being like, fucking get it together.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
We have a.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Family here, like you have a family. And I get
it now, And I even got it then. I think
I understood it so much, and that's maybe why I
was so mad, as I was just like, I know,
this isn't just a Jana thing. I know this isn't
just a Mic thing. But I was like, can somebody
just get out of the cycle so we can just
and listen? I see it now. The thirty thousand feet
(21:55):
perspective is stunning. I mean, I love Alan, I love
who Jenna is. Janna's a different human. This is a
completely different Janna than you were married to. This is
a different Jana than people knew in the Good Fight.
I mean, the amount of absolute trench work this chick
is done, and she's not even saying I'm done, I'm healed.
(22:16):
It's just different and it's calmer, and it's more certain,
and it's honest, and I get why it all had
to fall apart. I just want you to know that
I was never going like I mean, it was finally
where I just look at channel I was like, it's
just time because I was watching it all be the same,
(22:39):
and I hated it, and I hated it for you
because I actually do think you can be a really
good dude. I think that's where my frustration came in.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Yeah, and I know that I am and.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I mean, I'm Juris out, but for me was gien.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
And I agree with you with the things you're about China.
Going back to what you originally said, it's like, you know,
we you know, we had kids and we had a
family with our group, even you saying that when I
look at it from the outside, yes, But then when
I put myself back into where I was then not
(23:21):
nothing against you guys or anybody, I still felt alone.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Sure I can see that actually right.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
Like I felt like and again and you guys, it's
not that anyone whether it's your husband's or you guys
directly or anybody else that was in our life and
no one did anything directly for me to feel this way.
It was my own doing over time, but we all
want those fox whole friends, right, like we all have
(23:49):
those people in our life. Here at that time when
things are just towards that end, I felt, I was like,
I don't have anyone in my foxhole in terms of
like our closer group, right.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Were you in your own foxhol.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
Yeah? Well that was the thing I thought. I was like,
this is all I got. I don't have them alone
because just because of whatever reasons, again mostly stemming from
my own decision making over the years and all of that.
But that's part of where, just like that cycle needed
to end because this is as much as yes, the
(24:42):
only shame that I have that still comes up is
stuff with the kids, Right, would I change anything? Still? No,
because I see where Jan is at and I was
just on the previous episode, I was talking to Mark
(25:04):
and how much I love Alan.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
I mean, who doesn't love Alan?
Speaker 5 (25:08):
I told her. I said the same joke to to
Mark this episode, I was like, Jana, how does that
make you feel You're not the prettiest in the relationship anymore?
I mean, this guy, we're at soccer practice. It's like
a nice autumn day, like pea.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Coat on straight out of the UK.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
His hair was flowing.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Of course he always I swear.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
He turned to the right and I was kind of
back behind them, like catching up to me. He turned
the right and it's like the wind hit it just right.
I was like, is he slow motion right now?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
In slow motion? Also, if you made an Alan like
action figure, it would be Peacoat not sold separately. That's
like how he is in my brain, dapper Allan, Where
is he pop out right now?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Because so funny.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
So I you know, I might like him more than Jana, but.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
That's though that makes me happy.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
But that's a testament to the person that Jean has found,
the person that she found that she deserves right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
And I will say that the one thing of anything.
And you know, Kat was asking about, like, you know, apologies,
and like did you think I get apology wanted? And
I said, there's one thing that he said to me
at the very out of all the years, that was
everything I ever needed to hear. It wasn't the full
(26:29):
apology that I thought I deserved, or this or that
or the other you said to me when I got
engaged and you knew, you knew at that time I
was pregnant, but you said, after everything that I put
you through and you've been through, you deserve this and
I'm really happy for you. And it was like that's
everything I needed to hear, and I believed you and
(26:51):
that is the.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
That was. It was beautiful.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So I just I really appreciate that comment because that
has that was the one thing that was like.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Okay, well you're welcome and I meant it. And on
a lighter note, can we tell the pregnancy story?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Oh my god, did.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Jana tell you guys?
Speaker 3 (27:13):
So yeah, don't you tell you guys?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
I don't know out Oh yeah no.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so for those of you listening.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yeah, we can tell the story. It's so really funny.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
So we're sitting at soccer practice. Was this in the spring? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
The day does matter because the protesting.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
On your spring spring and we're at.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
March it was like March twenty fourth to twenty six whatever.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
It was dating Joys soccer practice.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, that was so So it was in April when
I when you found out.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Oh no, no, no, no, that wasn't even that was.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Bringing on the phone.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
Was on the phone, that's right.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
You didn't say anything.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
I didn't say anything. Yeah, So Jane was said she's like, hey,
can you get the kids or something or whatever. It's
like I just haven't been feeling well. I'm like, yeah, sure,
and then like a week goes by and then I
hear on the phone obviously I know Jane. I'm like,
you still don't feel like She's like no, I'm like
it's been a week, like what and then she makes
this audible sound over the phone that I've heard her
(28:16):
make two other.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
In you would figure it out first.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
And so she makes the sound like this little dry heave,
throw up.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Sound, and I was just like, you don't say anything.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
No, I said what I said. I was like, what
was that? She's like, I was like, what was that noise?
Speaker 3 (28:38):
And immediately when he asked me, I was like I
was like.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
I was like Janna, I was like, are you I
don't know what's talking about.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
No. No.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
And then it's like a couple of days later, we
had the soccer practice and we were.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
At Jason's surgery was a surgery, and I looked up
and he's just like, you're still not feeling good. He's
like Jana, and I was like m m mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I was like, yeah, long story short. He totally I
called her to keep that from him.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, He's like, are you pregnant? And I was just
like mm hmmm. And then You're just like, I'm.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
Really happy for I was uncle Mike here, I.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Okay, let's not with the old before the words. I
was trying to think of funny stories. But then, of course,
as I'm like going through these questions, I'm like, remember
when he cornered me in the bathroom, and do you remember?
Speaker 1 (29:50):
It's not a funny story, That's what Jenny was.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Like, no, And I was like, you don't remember that.
It was like dancing with the stars. After she first
found out you'd been away from a while. You come
back and she doesn't tell me, mind you that you're
coming back, and I'm there, and.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
So I'm like awesome.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
You know. So I'm like in the bathroom, do my makeup,
and you walk in the bathroom.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
There's nowhere for me to go. I am cornered into makeup,
just letting you.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Talk, and I'm just like, but I mean that was
a I mean a huge memory for me.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I mean it was it was big of you.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
Honestly, you know, you came in and you apologize to me,
and you you know, whatever.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
But anyway, so.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
I was trying to think of stories and I just
kept coming up with these and she's like, these aren't
funny stories, like you know it was, And then I
was like I did appreciate it though when he with
a hand.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
On the table the stories. But in my mind it
was funny.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Remember when we ruined the Gamelberg Gatlinburg. Is someone farted,
You're like.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
I didn't fart.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
We were just thrill us in there, like I'm not
a grown up, like saying I'm a grown up. I
didn't far.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Other funny now though, so that's the good news.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
I remember when we did wind Down Texas, and that
was I felt like, I felt like we were really funny.
We were thank you. And I remember you were too
tall for everything we tried to put you in, and
so then it became a series too tall Mike, and
so Carl, Carl, Carl and I were taking pictures of
(31:31):
you when you didn't know in tiny.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Space stop it.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
He would drive the jeep that we were renting. We
had to go like four hours and they love murder
mystery shows or whatever, and I was like, I'm in
my own personal health and so mom and Dad were
in the front and they're driving and he like Mike.
I was like, there's no way he doesn't have like
an actual kink because he was like so hunged over,
so too tall. Mike was a good memory.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Is there anything as we wrap up this episode that
you guys want to say to move on?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Let the past be the past.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Obviously it's long gone, but you know, to move on
and start a new chapter in this friendship.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Mine is quick, So Kat, would you like to go first?
I feel like I want you to feel like good relief.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I want us to be in a room and be
able to get along. First of all, I want to apologize.
This will be hard, but I want to say that
I am sorry because even though I didn't really have
a choice, the last thing I said to you will
always stick with me. It in the divorce situation, which
(32:43):
I'm sure you know remember that was very very hard
for me and.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I have.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
I was doing what I knew she needed me to do,
and I you know, I just I said to you,
you just trust me, and then you walked out the door,
and I was just like I.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Could I could barely live with it.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I mean, I'm just gonna be honest because I felt
like I had I knew I was doing what I
needed to for her, but for myself and for you,
I just it was hard. It was and I want
to apologize for that. I don't know how I should
have done it differently. I don't know how I would
have done it differently, but I do feel like I
own owe you an apology.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
I appreciate that, and I appreciate that you feel like
you even owe me an apology. And for those of
you listening, I mean, it wasn't It was just Catherine
saying that I don't need to go see GM. So
(33:49):
you were doing what any.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, you walked outside, and you walk outside. It's in
the book, it's a chapter outside.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Done the driveway. I see this guy get out of
his car, just waddling over to the driveway and I'm
just like, okay, and he's like, are you might costan?
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (34:07):
You go?
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Could you see me in the window? Oh my god,
did you see us?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Video?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
I literally cam and I just watched you from the
video and it was and she's, you know, screaming in
the bedroom, and I just like after that, I just
like sat there for a minute and I was like,
I mean honestly, like I needed to do.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
De talks for a while after all of this.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
It was a lot for y'all especially, but it was
also a lot on us too, you know. And that's
but yes, I felt like I owe you an apology
for that, because that just never really set well with me.
I think what I was trying to say to you,
I just didn't have more words, was I'm actually looking
out for you too, And it's how I felt in
(34:53):
that moment, It's what I wanted to say. That's why
I just kind of looked in your eyes and I
was like, just trust me, like I knew you'd get
here eventually.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
I just could so see that. I just knew that
it had to happen. It did, you know.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
So, But that's that's all I wanted to be able
to be in a room and be good. That's that's
you know. I hope that we can be good. I
hope that you don't have resentment towards me, and.
Speaker 5 (35:18):
No, I I honestly don't. And that's where, you know,
I never I didn't have a reason the way I
saw it for the last couple of years, and obviously
like the fact that we're having this conversation, the whole
reason why it's good that we've waited so long. Sure, right,
(35:40):
But at the same time, I was like, I don't
have any reason to talk to y'all like over the
last two and a half years, Like I haven't for
what again, for what reason? Like what what would have done?
Who would benefit in that moment until the moment came
like this more organically podcasts or.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Not organically being video from.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
Microphones and cameras, but for it to come up in
the way that it did, because other than that, like what,
I don't know what I would have said to either
one of you guys.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
I also think it's like God's protection over it too,
because I think what I would have said to you
a year ago, even or even right after it happened
would have been like very sex in the city, like no,
you know, And I think.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
We needed Jane to get to this place.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
That's where it hit me, Like, yes, I've had some
you know, things about it, and i've you know, felt
a way, But when I saw that y'all were good,
I'm like, all right, it's time it's time for us
to all be okay, you know, like let's all like
we're adults. What happened happened. We all know everyone had
a part in it. I will never fully blame you ever,
(36:57):
And I'm not saying I blame you either. It is
it's a it's a relationship that wasn't working, you know.
So I'm just thankful. Honestly, I'm really really grateful that
we could sit down and talk it talk it out.
Speaker 5 (37:09):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
That's really it for me too, because I honestly, you know,
I don't do well at not liking people. It takes
a lot for me to not like somebody. And I
never disliked you. I was disappointed, and I think I
felt like I just thought you could always do better.
I just kind of always knew you guys weren't going
to do better. You weren't going to be able to
(37:30):
do better inside of this. No, And I just don't
want to have to feel like I have to avoid
you because you're massive, and I just don't dislike you.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
We're all on the same page. We all like each other.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Well, thanks for coming on. Stay tuned for another short
little wrap up.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Stay tuned. We should have brought one h
Host
Jana Kramer
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