The Struggle is Real

The pressure is real for working moms.  And, a lot of the time, it's a giant hot mess.
Jana and her friends connect with journalist Paula Farris for an honest look at the realities of being a working mom.

Plus, Paula shares some advice that EVERY mom needs to hear about how she balances every aspect of her life.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast.
All Right, so everybody knows that we live in Nashville
and the tragic events that took place at the Covenant
Christians School just last week, and we obviously want to

(00:22):
address as it not only hits close to home, but
we were all mothers and we our hearts and our
prayers and our thoughts go out to all the families affected.
And it's just it's an absolute tragedy. And I just
again I said this the other day, but I I

(00:44):
just it's so unfair that any child and Kat we
were kind of talking about this, like your kids are
actually accustomed to this. They're like, oh yeah, desensitized, desensitized.
It's so sad. It's like, no kids should fear going
to school, and we shouldn't have to fear like saying,
you know, pick not picking them up, and like even

(01:05):
when I said the boye of the kids today dropping
them off, I'm like, and I know, KB, You're like,
you didn't bring your kids to school for a few Yeah,
still not going to school. Yeah, I'll just cry. It's hard. Yeah,
And it's just not fair. I also have the luxury

(01:27):
of keeping them home, which I know not a lot
of people do so, and I don't want to live
out of fear, but I also am just trying to
like navigate big feelings. On a side note, big hormones
because it makes me really anxious, but keeping them home
it just feels like what I need to do right now.

(01:48):
So that's what we're doing. Having the talk with Love
who's seven, I want to, like, I want her to
hear a version of it from me and not from
peers or friends or whatever. I know she's overhearing things
and she has this unique way of trying to figure
things out for herself, and she doesn't have the brain
developmentally at seven to try to figure this out, because

(02:09):
I barely have the brain at forty one to developmentally
figure this out. So it's just hard and it's just
not fair, like we shouldn't we shouldn't have to be
doing this. Well, it's the thing. I think I've struggled
with that piece of it, because when I picked up
Jolie when I got home from California, I said, hey, baby,
I just didn't know how to even go about it,
but I said, did you have you heard anything you

(02:31):
want to talk to mommy about? And She's like, what,
what do you mean. I go, I don't know, like
maybe about like another school, and she goes, what No,
And truthfully, I just was like, Okay, we'll just let
Mommy know if you did, because I just was like,
I don't even want to like scare I don't want
to put that into her now. I didn't talk to
Ramsey about it. I only talked to the older kids.
Emmy had not heard the middle school Caden. They definitely

(02:54):
they the teachers. Some of the teachers kind of talk
to them about it throughout the day. I think they
took they kind already take their phones, but they took
their phones even more kind of kept them from their
phones from seeing things that day. And I talked to
Emmy about it, but I didn't talk to Ramsey about it.
She's seven, okay. I mean I think that that's a
that's a parental decision, and I think that that's a
hard one, you know, it's you know, whereas my older

(03:18):
kids are a little desensitized to it, Ramsey is not yet,
And so I also didn't want to scare her either. Sure,
I think it's difficult too, because there's so many things
that I just remember. I sent Catherine a text. I'm like,
you know, I want to say this because I just
don't understand why. And it's just, you know, seeing kind

(03:39):
of how social media and people saying things that just
there's such then a war on social media with people
fighting well no it's this, No, it's this, No, it's this,
And I'm like, it's all of it in my opinion,
Like it's like there needs to be changed, and there
needs to be I think a certain level of gun reform,
and I don't know why we need a fifteens and
I would like security at schools, and I would I

(04:00):
believe we need more God, and I believe we need
to have something to help with mental health. Like I
think there's just so much and it's just like I
kind of feel like a small fish and a big
gass ocean, Like I don't know, and we're just widening
the gap with those kind of dialogues and the frustration
and the fighting. I'm like, we're just doing what this
is driven to do to us, instead of going in

(04:22):
the opposite direction and like linking arms and going I
hear you, I understand, I agree, or you know, like
it's it's like we just keep widening such a finger pointing. Yes, well,
we're letting evil win. I know, the dark, you know,
like you're just you're letting it in when you fight,
you know, Yeah, there was already. I actually had therapy
the day after the shooting, and and Amy is very

(04:46):
protective of me anyways, because in my childhood anyway, She's like,
you've already had to deal with too much too soon.
So and she talked to me about the cortisol levels
and third trimester pregnancy and effects of baby on the baby,
and so she was like, I need just you know,
like we need to manage that for you. But I
told her, I was like I just don't know what
to do. And so I just made my kids dinner

(05:08):
and we took a walk. And she was like, those
are all really good things. And she said sometimes sometimes
in this like everyone is like, you know, you do this,
call your senator, do these things. She was like, absolutely,
do those things if you feel called to do those things.
But also just really take care of yourself. I have
another Amy therapist friend who said there's a role for

(05:29):
everybody in what happens post tragedy, So you shouldn't be
hard on yourself because you're not doing one thing or
not doing another, like we're not well. People go in
your DMS go why are you speaking about this? Why
are you saying this? And it's it's like a yeah,
And I'm also just like, kindly give me a minute,
Like we're trying to process as a family. This is
right up the street. You know, it had been noted
that other schools had been targeted too, and that that

(05:52):
was on the agenda. So like, that's a lot to
take in. We've we just there's just a lot that
people don't know that we're all also sorting through and
we all know somebody that went to that school or
somebody of somebody, so we're trying to find names and
faces and we're trying to figure out who it was,
and just you know, a lot to take in. And

(06:17):
I just want to say again, we shouldn't have to
take it in and we're not supposed to be experts
at this because it's not fair. Yeah, and I'd like
to have, you know, dropped the kids off and not
be like them threatened or like gosh am I going
to pick them up? Like they just and even the
kids they got there at school. Right now, I'm just yeah, exactly,

(06:37):
they had to witness as just shouldn't be happening. I
would I wouldn't want to go to school. I'd have
so much anxiety if that was happening. When I was
a kid, I remember even after Vegas, I didn't go
to shows for a long time. After the Vegas shooting.
There was a kid with brass knuckles that got into
a big fight in my school, and I remember being
like traumatized. Can you imagine what these kids have to
deal with now? It's just not okay. Do you remember

(06:58):
being in high school in Columbine how? Yeah, Oh, because
I remember that because our high school was very similar
to Columbine and saying we had a lot of that's
when kind of like all the drills kind of started
and they started like working on stuff. So I remember
that very vividly. Yeah. One thing that kind of hit
home for me is how I know that we've were
at past a point is reading that that today's active

(07:22):
shooters went through active shooter like drills as elementary kids.
It's a good point. Yeah, heavy, heavy, heavy, I know.
And there's a lot of things going around, you know,
saying prayers, aren't you know, um, we need more than prayers.
But I believe healing happens with prayer, and I feel

(07:46):
that we all need a little bit more of it.
So man, um, we will be you know, we are
sending our prayers and condolences and uh it's yeah, it's
it's awful. So to address that, obviously we have to
move on with the show. Um, So we will do
that after the break in other news. Um, I don't

(08:22):
know if I'm actually supposed to share this information, but
I'm going to. Anyways, why do you do it? And
if it has to get cut, it has to get cut.
Hey Jackie, will you put on your camera? Bab uh
poor thing? What's going on? Bhi? So we're gonna we're
gonna lighten this up a little. Um our sweet Jackie

(08:45):
is like that. Hi guys. Yes, So on Kristen, when
you're like oh, I was like me too. I'm only
like two months a long how far? How far along
are you now? Was it my seventeenth week? And so

(09:07):
I told Jana on Monday in La So, um, yeah,
I'm still like I'm showing a little bit but not
too much. But I'm do September third, and this is
your first yes from cute I feel good. First trimester
was really hard because it's like nausea and everything, you

(09:28):
know how it is that's good, that's healthy. Yeah. Yeah,
And I've felm feel a little bit more more like
myself this trimester and um, and I just kept it
a little bit like to myself because I wanted to
get through the first trimester because I'm like thirty seven.
You know how they tell you after thirty five. I
just want to make sure it's stock, you know, like
you know how that is in my head. I was

(09:51):
in my head a little bit about that. But yeah,
it's it's it's so crazy how they Because I was
talking to somebody else, I mean, Chris, and you're what
forty one? My mom? I was talking to my mom
earlier and she's she was saying something about her one
friend and I remember her. She she was like forty
and then forty three when she had her next one.
And Emma, my makeup artist in Los Angeles, like she

(10:13):
had her baby at forty three, and it's like women
feel like they have And I was thinking about that too,
because when I was, uh, what, you know, dating my ex,
it was like, oh God, I have to get pregnant.
It's like, no, you actually have more time than you think.
They just put so much pressure and and it's true
the eggs and all that stuff do get whatever, like,
but you can still get pregnant and you can still

(10:34):
have a healthy pregnancy. So congratulation, so excited for you.
It's the baby boy. And oh yeah, I'm excited. I
hope he has your cheeks, Jackie, little diffalls are everything
so cute. Well, congrats so much. We're so excited for

(10:55):
You're right here for all the advice. Oh I know,
with the gadgets you don't need and all the gadgets
you do. Yeah, I'm so grateful too, because like im
all my friends are on their second kid, and you know,
like the community of mama's Like it's so beautiful to
me because it's like I'm I'm an auntie of five,

(11:18):
so like I can take care of like the kids
and all that. But it's like stepping into something else
like that. It is a little scary. But the community
mamas is so beautiful and I love it. I love it.
And speaking of mama's, we have on Paula Faris, I
want to read a little what was it called insert
about her? Like so many mothers who were forced out

(11:38):
of their jobs during the pandemic. Ferris lost her as
at ABC News in twenty twenty. It was then she
knew she wanted to create a better way forward for
working moms, Moms who are tired of the constant conflict
between working and momming, a feeling that they're failing everyone everywhere,
of facing the gender disparities and workplaces that treat mothers
like risks instead of assets, end of dealing with the

(11:58):
exhaustion of trying to carry it all. Ferris, is self
described advocate for Mom's, launched Carry Media in twenty twenty
two to champion working mom through resources, content and storytelling.
And I just I love that. So she she has
a new book that's out. You don't have to carry
it all, ditch the mom guilt and find a better
way forward. And I think for me, one of the

(12:19):
biggest quotes that I've said, I was like, I don't
want to have to carry it all. That's what I've
the constant thing that I felt in my marriage, being
a single mom. You know, it's like that, just feeling
like I have to carry it all. It's overwhelming. Well,
it's exhausting. I actually thought of you as I was
reading about Paula. I was like, I just I thought

(12:43):
about like the million hats you wear and the pressure
that you feel and all the things. I mean, both
of you do such a great job. I feel like
get balancing. I mean, I'm a full time stay at
home mom, so I just need to like clear that up.
I'm not I can do things, but I don't have
to do things, which is also a luxury. But I
thought of both of you and how well you balance
both of it. But just like the pressure of having
to work too, Like I don't have to respond to

(13:05):
anyone right away. This is really my only job and
it's not even a job. I just show up at
my friend's house. I mean, but that's hard too. I
think it's like each aspect is difficult. I mean, you know,
with sure my situations, like I feel like I have
to because I'm like, well, I have to pay for
child support. I have to have the roof over their heads.
I have to. I don't have to, but I you know,
I get to, right, But it's also that pressure that's

(13:27):
it's a lot. It's a lot, and then you know,
I just so I carry that on top of like, Okay,
a career that's so freaking unstable. Any I was just
doing an audition earlier with my boyfriend and I was like, whatever,
I don't I'm just like I'm not even gonna get it.
And he's like, well, that attitude, you know what I mean,
because I don't like coach Allen and that's not a

(13:48):
winning attitude hard because you just like sometimes I'm just
like I don't and I don't want to work this
hard sometimes, Like I know, I would like to just
be supported too, you know, in a financial aspect, it's
because it's a lot. It is a lot. I mean, Kat,
I know you were kind of dealing with that a
little bit with Yeah. I mean that pressure is so
different though, like that pressure of having to provide for

(14:09):
your family versus you know, being married and then having
a job and having that pressure. It's different. I mean
I don't have the pressure. I know at the end
of the day, if I lost my job, or if
I needed to quit my job, or if I didn't
have a job, I would still be supported. So that
is very, very different than what you have to deal with.

(14:30):
That pressure is a whole different pressure. But yes, I
have worked pretty much my entire motherhood. And I just
think that, you know, balance is key, you know, I mean,
that's just balance is key. That's all I can say,
you know. But the pressure of having to provide, that's
that's a whole other level. Yeah, so let's get let's

(14:56):
get paul on No, sorry, I thought it was one thirty.
Don't you carry that guilt. It's okay, drop the guilt.

(15:17):
Drop the guilt, baby, it's time Lately, moms can make
mistakes sometimes because we've got a million things we're doing.
Apologies again, you can't be late here. It's all good.
Don't You're like you're dead to me. This is like
the most understanding group of women ever. Like if there

(15:40):
was ever a place where you could come in late,
this is it. So yeah, and we're all moms too,
so we and we were just kind of talking about
to your book because I was, I was, you know,
telling the girls and they know this and I know
we all feel this, but like, honestly, the quote that
I feel like that I've said a million times over
and over, that's like plastered on my forehead as I like,
I don't want to carry this all the time, Like

(16:02):
I feel like I have to carry it all the time,
and it just becomes um, you know what. We all
feel that in different situations, right, So like mine's on
like the single mom's side, you know, having to support
my kids, pay child support, do all those things while
still trying to have a career. So like that struggle.
And then you know she's got you know, she's a
traveling husband who's gone like at least two hundred nights

(16:22):
a year with a seven year old was a deep
feeler and a four year old boy who's Will Ferrell.
And so I'm and I'm pregnant one. Oh my gosh, congratulations.
It's really a feat but yeah, just like I felt
it the other day, like I was like, how do
I carry all these emotions? It's different, but it's a
different responsibility. And then we've got Cat too, who's got
you know, kids going into almost high school. I don't

(16:44):
remind me, it's just it's busy. It's a lot. How
old are yours? Cat? Mine are fourteen? Eleven and seven? Okay, okay, fourteen,
Oh my gosh, fourteen, I'm reading this down. Eleven and seven, Joanna?
How old is your seven and four? Little one? We
keep it real tight. Over here. We have a season.

(17:05):
We just text each other. Okay, so wait, so seven
and four both of us. Yeah, that's our girls are
three weeks apart and our boys are three months apart.
Like we definitely are like, okay, we're having a baby. Okay, great,
hands in on three except for the third you're like, okay,
we're done. Yeah, someone some of us bow out and

(17:27):
that's just fine, and some of us going to biblical proportions.
It's fine. Okay. I have a fifteen a thirteen, I'm like,
how old are they not? Fifteen thirteen and just turned nine. Yeah.
It's fun. It's fun, and it gets like it gets better.
It's a different type of exhausting though, That's what I've heard.

(17:48):
So yeah, how and how long have you been married? For?
Um going on twenty three years. I'm married my college sweethearts,
very good for years. It's a very like small Christian
school thing to do, right, So that's cute. I did
that one too. Yeah, see, and how did that work out?
I have like like half of my friends are divorced, right, Yeah,
I got because you guys, it was crazy. So I

(18:10):
went to a real small conservative Christian school and the
joke was that everyone was there to get their Mrs. Degree.
Oh I was in thirteen weddings by the time I
got married at the riple age of twenty four. Wow,
I was like the old maid of the group to
get married. So that crazy, that's crazy. It's just times
are a change in and with the josh the you know,

(18:31):
the job that you have and also had, you know,
being on TV. And was your husband, I mean, was
he so supportive and he still felt that guilt? He okay,
So you know, I write in the book that you know,
my story of spousal equity was kind of a rarity,
especially in those conservative circles. You know. My husband was

(18:53):
a college basketball coach when we first got married and
loved coaching, and then my career started taking off. And
when my career was taking off, he said, let's go
for this. He was super supportive, and so he gave
up his career coaching basketball to follow mine. But of course,
you know, it was a joint decision. But we moved
from Ohio to Chicago and then to New York, and

(19:14):
every time I got a promotion, he's like, let's go
for it. So but that's an exception, you know, like
I say, my story of spousal equity is definitely an exception.
But he's always been really supportive, really really supportive, and
it's cool to see how it's all come back around
since I left TV News. You know, coaching has always
been his first love and he still has a like

(19:37):
a day to day regular job. He's in commercial real estate,
but he coaches at one of the area high schools
he was asked to coach, and he's also coaching one
of the travel sports teams basketball teams. So it's all
kind of come back, which is really cool. Do you
miss being on TV and anchoring? You know, it's still
funny people ask me that I have a new appreciation,

(20:01):
Like when I went back to New York for my
media tour, I have a new appreciation for New York
and all of that represents as a tourist now that
I'm on the other side, I missed. There are certain
aspects of it that I missed, the storytelling, you know,
the fast paced aspect of it. But I really love
this new season and I love what I'm doing, the

(20:24):
work that I'm doing to champion moms, working moms and
advocating for them, and I love being able to be
really present with my kids. So you know, it's like
when you romanticize the situation and have nostalgia. Like my
husband and I were just talking about it, and I'm like,
you know, sometimes there are moments I miss it, but
I'm like, I miss the feeling, but I don't really
miss the reality of it when you really think about it,

(20:46):
the reality of getting up early, not seeing my kids,
you know, missing out on all the important moments that
I wanted to to be part of. So and that's
just natural. But I really love where I am right now.
I really do. Does it feel like you it's supplemented
in those moments of like missing those pieces. Do you
get supplemented with watching him be able to step more
back into his role of things he loves to do

(21:08):
that's passionate and like being with the kids. Yeah, yeah,
for sure. And it's cool just to see how you know,
we totally blew up our lives at the beginning of
the pandemic and I left TV News. We both left
New York City, moved to a small town in South Carolina,
and what we weren't really sure like the next what
was going to be in the next chapter, But we

(21:29):
just we just knew that this was what we were
supposed to do. And it's like we're both super fulfilled.
Our kids are really thriving now, and it life's different.
It was whiplash because we moved from what eight nine
million people to a town of twenty four hundred. I
mean it is small. It is small town, but we
love it, we really do. And I think one of

(21:52):
the biggest lessons that I've learned is that we have
to give ourselves permission to try new things and new seasons.
We're like, oh, I have to be this one thing.
I have to do this one thing for the rest
of my life. I have to be, you know, a
country music star, or I have to be, you know,
a real estate agent, or I have to be a teacher,
I have to be a broadcaster for the rest of
my life. And I just had to realize I had

(22:13):
to give myself permission to try new things in new season.
So this new season, I feel really called to, you know,
advocating for working momster carry. My husband feels really called to,
you know, coaching young men on the basketball court and
continuing with his commercial real estate business. But giving yourself
permission to try new things in new seasons. And that's
kind of how I see it, Like I may not

(22:34):
want this in five ten years, and that's okay. I
kind of look at life in chapters in seasons. So
but we have to give ourselves permission to see ourselves
a new capacity and permission for others to see ourselves
in a new capacity. And that can be really scary.
I like that, what a splash going through it here
with my two bodies. Don't mind me. Sorry, by the way,

(22:56):
when are you do, Jim? Okay, beginning in a jam? Yeah,
it's really it's probably really comfortable to be sitting down
right now. Well, we've we have adjusted as a team.
We've adjusted the up angle here, which I really can
appreciate because for a long time I was like, hey,
this is like my belly button was doing the talking.
Oh my gosh. So okay, So what are some of

(23:18):
your methods for our like theys A tips for burnout,
because I feel like that's a big thing that we
all experienced too, is as moms. Yeah, one thing that
was really fascinating. So the reason I wrote the book
to begin with, and you don't have to carry it.
I'll ditch the mom guilt and find a better way forward.
It was my own experience as a mother in the
workplace and the experience of so many other moms that

(23:39):
it's you, guys, it's not just feeling, it is fact.
Once you become a mother in this country, in America,
you were paid less seventy cents in the dollar compared
to fathers. You're valued less, and you're scrutinized more. You're
all of a sudden not seen as a viable leader,
You're passed over on promotions. The scrutiny goes through the roof.
That's once you become a mother. And so I wanted

(23:59):
to like set up a case for not just how
we can give working moms the support they need to deserve,
but why we should do it. As a country. More
moms are working because they have to. Seventy percent will
be the primary breadwinner in their home, and we're carrying
out of all of that. You know, we're a marginalized community.
And then we're burnout. We're burnt out at record levels

(24:19):
levels we've never seen before. It is harder to be
a mother in America than anywhere else. And it's because
mainly we don't have a realistic measuring stick of what
it means to be a mom here, right, there's nobody
that we can really look up to. I mean, June
Cleaver kind of set us up for disaster back in
the nineteen fifties. And we're still trying to carry it all,
and we feel like we can't ask for help because

(24:42):
we'll be weak or or it's a sign of failure.
So we're carrying all of this because that's the expectation
that you need to carry it all. You need to
be a mommy martyr, you'd need to be the perfect
Pinterest mother. And we're burnt out. And it's no surprise
that we're burnt out. But I think you know, we
can burn out on motherhood, which I burn out of motherhood.
We can burn out on jobs, we can burn out

(25:05):
on our expectations. So there's a lot of different contributing
factors to burnout. And one thing that I've noticed is
that when I'm starting to feel like a little crispy
where I'm starting to feel that burnout creep in again.
Like last summer, I was totally burnt out on motherhood.
I wasn't burnout on the work I'm doing. I wasn't

(25:25):
burnout on anything else. I was burnout on mothering my children.
And you know, once your kids get a little older,
you start to carry their burdens and their anxiety and
their relationships and all of those different dynamics. And like
you carry, you start to carry all of that and
you can burn out on it. And one of my
friends said, she gave me some really great advice. She said,
when you feel that burnout coming, we'll first recognize that

(25:46):
burnout can come from a myriad of different angles. You
need to start staying. Yeah, you obviously have to clear
your plate and say no to things, but in doing that,
you can also ruthlessly say no to the things that
also bring you joy. So she said, she encouraged me.
She said, do something for that you really love them
just brings you radical joy. And I'm not talking about

(26:06):
necessarily a spot. Spot is not going to fix it,
but like they know, to certain things and prioritizing but
also saying yes to things that bring you a lot
of joy. For me, it was something as simple as
grabbing a couple of my girlfriends and go taking a
Trappi's yoga class, you know, just doing something really fun.
And didn't see that one coming I'm not gonna lie Trappia. Yeah,

(26:27):
you know, I was like that. I gotta tell you
that was a mad live for me. I didn't You
don't see me hanging upside down from with silks, Well
I do now, but I didn't say there you think
that was going to be where you were going with it.
But I think when we think burnout, were like clear
your plate, clear your plate. Say no, no, no, you're
burnt out. But like I had to realize, I can
burn out on my expectations of my children. You know,

(26:50):
I can burn out on being a mother. I can. Yeah,
you can burn out in a job. But there's a
lot of different things that can cause burnout. And yes,
you have to say no, but you also have to
say yes to something that just brings you wild and
radical joy. And it doesn't have to be anything big.
It could be trappy yoga. It could be hey, I

(27:10):
want to go fly fishing. That's probably not going to
appeal to you. It could be like, you know, I
want to just take a drive, you know, get in
the car for like two hours ago on a scenic
road trip by myself, and grab a ninety nine cent
found drink, you know, on the way. So it could
be something simple, but like you have to say yes
the things that bring you joy, um, as well to

(27:32):
make sure that you know you're taking care of yourself. Yeah,
because the opposite swing of that sometimes I think is
like the natural like we shut down and then we isolate,
and that's not good either. So it's like the saying no,
it's really bad. Yeah it's I whenever I get I
just start crying. It's just because I just feel exhausted. Yeah,
it alone. I don't want to do it alone. Yeah.

(27:55):
You know what's really interesting? Um? You know, so when
I in writing the book, I talked kinds of thought
leaders and experts and historians and sociologists, moms from all walks,
moms from all over the world to try to figure
out like not just how we can support mother's butter
and why, but like why is it so freaking hard
to be a mom here in America because anywhere else? Mean,

(28:18):
yeah they're so mean, but ladies, Yeah, they just make
you feel terrible. I'm I'm traveling too much to my kids, this,
that and the other. Like why aren't your kids with you?
Wealth because they were with their dad that weekend? I'm sorry,
Like that on social media, there's like bunny sandwiches being
made and I'm like, like, you give them Chiffy peanut butter.
I'm like, I do because I like it. Yeah, I'm

(28:38):
guess what I want to do? Yeah, yeah. And I
think at the crux of the mommy wars is just
a lack of respect for another person's choice and we
don't understand. Like I realized, I had so many blind
spots about motherhood. I'm like, oh, a good mom stays
home to raise her children, as if a working mom
can't raise our kids. I was raised by a stay
at home mom, right, But I realized that, like, hey,

(29:02):
this isn't the nineteen fifties. Most moms are working now
because they have to work. And Jenna, you're a single mom.
I mean, we have the largest number of children living
in single parent homes here in America than anywhere else
in the country. My book was written by a single
mom of three, My publishers a single mom of three,
My editor is a single mom, So I understand, like,
I understand that tension. But when I was talking with

(29:23):
mom global moms, they not only didn't have guilt about
working and guilt about motherhood and parenting. They actually took
an enormous amount of pride in working, in contributing to
the community and contributing to the family. However, the community
was also very supportive. Right their mantra and other countries

(29:44):
is I am my brother's keeper. Everyone was invested in
raising the children in the community, regardless of whether or
not they were their children, because they realized that children
are our greatest natural resource. They are the future of
this country, and so everyone has vested interest in making
sure that this next generation of children rises up. They

(30:04):
have policies that support families. Here in America, it is
a stress and strain to raise children. There's there's a
thing called a happy gap, which I discovered after interviewing
this a renowned sociologist, A happy gap between parents and
non parents here in America that doesn't exist to the
levels it does here in America. They have a beautiful interdependence.

(30:25):
In other countries where they have either family members living
with them or there's just this attitude of you better
ask me for help, right and said, here, it's like
you feel like it's an obligation. You feel you feel
like you're putting somebody out if you ask them well
even sometimes even your family mostly oh yeah, yeah, I
know it's treated like an obligation, but in other countries

(30:49):
is just it's the beautiful interdependence. They don't have guilt.
There's structures set up to support families and also to
news flash value children because I'm like, here, they're either
the future of our country or they're not, so let's
invest in them. But it's just you know. And one
of the moms I spoke with she had foreign exchange
students from all over the world that would visit her

(31:11):
house or visit her home and stay with them every year,
and she said the overwhelming feedback from the foreign exchange
students was American mothers are working harder than any mothers
in the entire world. And it's so true because we're
trying to carry it all. We're trying to do it
all again, there's no realistic measuring stick, and if we
ask for help, we're weak or we're a failure. So yeah,
and there's much a lot of teamwork, you know. Like

(31:33):
my when I was my daughter was young, I had
a girlfriend who would we would I would go to
her house. We would I would drop my daughter off,
I would go get my nails done. Then I would
come back and she would go get her nails done
and we would watch each other's kids, and it was
like that's beautiful. It was fun and it was wonderful.
She moved home to Georgia to be with her family,
so then I know he system. But it is like

(31:57):
I feel I feel sometimes dressed out because I'm like
to go leave and do anything cost me like a
certain amount of money an hour. I just think that
that's totally It's so important, Like both I could say
all three of my kids, I have people that I know.
I can call on a mom friend be like, hey
can you take so and so today? And I'll take
them the next day, like we all kind of do.

(32:17):
I mean it is a smaller community, but like we
all do that. It's like, yeah, I have a really
good friend who works a lot. She's a nurse. She
works all the time, and like I don't think twice,
like her daughter's like my second daughter. Like anytime you're working,
I got her. We're doing this, you know. But everyone
doesn't have that mentality anymore. No, the community it's huge,
and that's the thing, like we need to ask for help. Yeah,

(32:41):
we can wait for society's attitudes to change about our
kids and about our families. We can wait for the policymakers.
It's going to take a long time to catch up
and actually like create policies that are family friendly. We
say we're family friendly in this country, but that's bs.
I'm sorry, you know the way that our policies do
not support that at all. But what we can do
is we can stop carrying it all. We can ask

(33:03):
for help. And that's one thing I've learned to do.
It's really hard. It's hard for me to ask for
help because we've been conditioned. I've been conditioned, we've been
conditioned as women to not ask for it because we're weak.
And it's almost like this martyr status if we don't,
if we can do it all on our own, yeah,
well news watch. That's why we're all warned out right.
But if you if we can ask for help and
can't what you just described as so beautiful, you've created

(33:25):
an interdependence and your friends can be closer than your family,
but you are just as much that helped to your
friends as they are to you. And it can and
for like I can't necessarily you know, af forward full
time childcare. But what I can do is offer that
childcare to another friend. Hey Friday, I'm going to take
your kids next Friday, will you take mine. I'm going

(33:45):
to take your kid home. I'm going to pick your
kid up from track practice or from carpool. I'm going
to bring dinner to you. I'm gonna go clean your house.
So you create, you create a beautiful interdependence and you
create community. And guess what, there's a cost to that.
You will you there is a sacrifice to that you
will be. It's not that you're obligated, but it's not
always going to be convenient. And that's one thing. Like

(34:08):
we live such convenience, live convenient lives. If we want
to be part of something bigger than ourselves and we
want to be part of community, and we say it
takes a village, we have to also be willing to
be inconvenience for other people. And we're not, but we
have to. We have to take that first step and
say I'm going to do I'm gonna be this for
you if you want somebody else to do the same. Yeah,

(34:29):
I love the friendship. I mean I feel like, you know,
especially even like my daughter is like my friend pay
him like, Okay, do you have I'll take Harlow this
week or you got so you know, Jolie the next week.
And I think the asking for help piece is almost
easier with friends. It's harder for me and like relationships,
because I feel like when in past if I was
to ask for help, but it would never get done,
so I'm like, well, I'm just gonna do it myself.

(34:51):
And then now I've been so trained to not ask
for help because well, ay, I like it the way
that I do it right, I know going to get done.
So you know that's a piece now is like trying
to like switch off. They're like, Okay, try it differently
again and learn like it's ask for help, which is hard. No,
but that's that's that's really good too. And Janna, that's
something I think a lot of moms struggle with. We

(35:13):
want it's just sometimes easier for us to do it,
and even with our kids. So I write a chapter
about how we're hot housing their children here in America
and the lessons I learned from parents in France, where
like they believe that a key and vital aspect of
childhood development is allowing your children to be frustrated, say
no and meaning it, say no, we're not going to

(35:36):
do that, and it's okay if you're frustrated. That is
that is a key component to the development. Like the
French and I don't know if you guys have ever
been to France, they really don't have kids venues. I mean,
the kids just have to adapt. They have to learn
how to be frustrated. And that also extends to like
why are we the sheafault the mom Why are we
the ones doing everything at home? Why are we working

(35:57):
ninety eight hours a week between work and home and
picking up everything at home, the laundry, the cooking. We
got to ask our kids to start doing some of
that too, And yes, we could do it better, we
could do it more efficiently. And you know, like my
boys like might just put things in the dryer and
not put them in the washer. They think somehow that

(36:18):
the dryer is going to clean them too. But I'm like,
you just have to let them learn to learn to
figure it out. My son the other day he's like, Mom,
I don't think I have any clean clothes for a
golf practice. He's in seventh grade, And I was like,
did you do your laundry and he said no, and
I said, I'm sorry, you know, like he's starting to
do his laundry. But we also have to allow them

(36:38):
to accept those consequences and also helped train them to
be a good partner down the road and an adult. Right,
I mean, they're already starting to become an adult. I
mean for kids that have graduated and don't know how
to do they don't know how to boil pasta, they
don't know how to do their laundry, Like we're doing
our kids a disservice. Kids these days can earn, but

(36:59):
they can't empathize, and they can perform, but they can't perceive.
Like we've got to allow our kids to get their
their feet and their hands dirty. Yeah. Well, I just
had this conversation with my sister in law who came
over and my house was a mess and there was
dirty dishes and the thing. And I was like, Oh,
don't mind my dirty dishes. I'm just waiting on my
son to do them, because he's supposed to have done
the dishes last night. She was like, how can you

(37:21):
do that? Just let him sit there and I'm like,
oh no, they're gonna sit there until he does the dishes, like, yeah,
that's his job and they're gonna sit there and yeah,
my house might be a mess right now, but it's
still his job to do them. Do you give him
like a time, because that would like start like I
want to go right now. Yeah, yeah, well I meant
leave dishes and the thing. It's a thing exactly, That's

(37:42):
what she was saying. But I'm like, but you're doing
your kids at disservice now. Having said that, the reason
they sat there is because he did have something else
he had to do. He had a prior commitment, so yes,
it would be easy, and sure we've done it a
couple times. We just do it anyway, but we're really
trying not to do that. That means they have to
sit through your dishes all so I make I make

(38:02):
Julian Jays do their own and then sometimes Julia big
mommy Alcacharz. I'm like, that's okay, but like, well ours,
I mean, our pals up. So sure it's like not
even so it's like I need it takes you know, whatever,
But I mean, yes, it's not easy. But at the
same time, it's like, okay, it's not going to teach
him anything if we just do it. And that's why,
Like when my son asked me, He's like, will you

(38:24):
just do my laundry? And I was like, I'd love to,
but I'm sorry. You need to look, you need to
like understand the consequences of not doing it. Are you
not going to have clean clothes? Yep? To where to
practice and allowing him to kind of feel that frustration.
It's not that I don't love him. I love my child.

(38:45):
I would it's so much easier for me to do
it right, and it's easy for me just to intervene.
But I'm not teaching him anything, and I've like I
my parenting style is totally different now since I wrote
the book. I allow my children to, especially especially my youngest,
my nine year old, to feel for austration because I
realized that that's a key part of of growing up.
It's a key part of of being a human. So

(39:08):
I don't want I want my kids again to perceive
and not just perform, and I want them to empathize
and not just burn. Um. I want my my son's
partners to thank me down the road instead of hate
me for raising a enabled son who expects food to
just magically appear like I want my kids. Yeah, I
want so. My mother in law thinks she nailed it, Paula,

(39:31):
My mother in law really thinks she nailed that. I
tell you, as you're saying all of this, like a
lot of mine. Burnout even came in the marriage piece, like,
I know you have this sweet, wonderful husband who seems
to be very cool. He's Oh he's not perfect, none
of it. None of us are. It's been a it's
been a journey. He's younger than me, So I say,

(39:52):
you know, trained up a child in the way they
should go. There was a lot of training. Yeah, that's
what happened. A lot of training for me. You're still training.
What do you what do you think the biggest takeaway
or what would you like the biggest takeaway to be
with your book? Is it truly the mom's dropping the
guilt or what do you think it is? Well, I
think moms just want to feel seen and heard and

(40:13):
valued and validated, right everybody, Like I just I want
you to have this reaction like, oh my gosh, finally
someone is saying it. I had someone reach out to
me that's reading it. She's like two pages in, I'm
already in tears. She's like, why is it twenty twenty
three in this book, because just now being written, that's like, yes,
it's it's full of research and history and facts and

(40:35):
funny anecdotes, and it documents a better way forward. It's
hopeful and it's helpful. It's the tool belt. It's like
a better way forward for working and momming. But I
want moms to feel seen. I want moms to feel heard.
I want them to feel valued, and I want them
to feel validated. That's overwhelmingly what I want. I want hug.
You were right here. Everyone to everyone, go grab you

(41:02):
don't have to carry it all. Ditch the mom gills
and find a better way forward by right now. Paula
Faris girlfriend, thank you so much for coming on wine down. Oh,
thank you so much. And I just have one more
thing to say to all three of you. You are
a good mom. I don't feel like you can tell
somebody that when you tell another mom that, she's just

(41:24):
like really, because we doubt our son too emotional. I
made it the whole time with you without crying. You
said a few things where I was like, I'm definitely
gonna cry, But that is a good mom. Yeah, because
I'm tired. I work for the Kardashians for free. That's
how I feel. I'm tired, That's how it feels. I
had to remind my people the other day. I'm like,

(41:45):
I don't work for you, like, I'm here because I
love the Lord. You know, I'm trying to change a
better generation, not because I'm getting paid to be here,
you know, Like how get sister out? Well, thank you,

(42:05):
by I appreciate all three of you. Thanks, ladies, bye
bye bye by bye. Yeah, she's great. I need to
I'm amazigning Asa so semi fan girl inside because you
know this. I don't think you know this, but my
I was going to go to school because I wanted
to be an anger woman. Oh, like I wanted to
be Diane Sawyer so badly. Oh you'd be good at that.

(42:28):
You're a digger. You're kind of fan girling ever a
little bit. Yeah, so cool, I know I would be.
It was fun though I sometimes and I know this
is like unfair, but like sometimes when people are in
that profession, I'm actually I feel so excited for her
that she went in a different direction, because she's just
so much more than just that. Like she's so much yeah,

(42:51):
like a good soul. Well I think too, like when
people pivot, it's interesting something she said, Like I remember
being out on the road with Jolie and being like,
this isn't this isn't what I want. Now, Luckily I
was able to kind of pivot. But a lot of
people that's just their one thing, you know, and whichever
avenue you go, I mean you you know you're is
not the wrong decision, but by any means, but um,

(43:14):
it's just interesting. Like I like how because sometimes I
feel like, oh my god, what am I doing? But
it's like, okay, it's okay to change a season, find
something else, you know, like this is the pivot different things.
I needed it. I needed it more than I knew
I needed it, and I knew I needed it because
I was just at home, you know, like and it's
so amazing. But there's even guilt that comes with me

(43:34):
going like I don't think this is enough for me. Okay,
you know, like I love raising them, I love cooking,
I love all the things, but I also am just
like but I also am just more than a toilet scrubber,
you know, Like I needed a moment for myself a maid. Honey,
oh honey, nobody wants to clean like I clean. I'm
really yeah, oh really see, I'm like, I don't need

(43:56):
a lot of people that are that OCD about cleaning.
Can't have a clean people? Yeah yeah, oh yeah. And
then I hated the one Sarah gave me, so that
an't work. If you ever do, I really do mind
the fact that they think they're interior designers and they
like to move. I can't see my threads clothing like
I like, you just pick it up dust and just

(44:18):
talk about this. So asking for help and I do
it ourselves. I tell you a funny story really quick,
and I promise this is a short. But this has
to do with it. I had a cleaning lady come
in January because I was like, Okay, I can do this,
I can ask for help. I've got to start taking
things off my plate. Yeah, I assume because I'm a
stay at home mom, I have to do it all
and if I don't, then I'm failing. Blah. Okay, So
now okay, So so this is I hope funny. Okay.

(44:41):
So I have a little urn with my dad, A
part of my dad. He's on my he's on my
living room shelf and I'm smiling only because this gets
funny and my dad would actually appreciate this story. But
so the cleaning lady has come and my dad is missing,
and I'm like, okay, listen, you can move a friend
and like it's fine, but like you've lost my Like,

(45:02):
where's my dad? Has anybody seen my dad? I did
find him. He was talked in a tiny corner and
I was like, they just I don't think they knew
what I didn't. I don't think they knew he's in there.
But I was like, this is why I can't do this.
I just moved the frame and don't put it back.
But you've moved my dad. You've misplaced my Dad's like

(45:24):
my lesson learned. I was like, so that's the last
time I had someone January fourth, No, okay, that's turn
well on that note to laugh about something, super glue
the urns down and dropped the guilt. Yes. I love you, guys,

(45:50):
I love you so much.