August 3, 2023 • 39 mins
Jana’s friend Brandi Wilson is an author, coach and speaker who has some incredible advice for finding hope and healing, especially after the end of a marriage.
Jana and Brandi have an honest conversation that can help anyone looking to redefine their relationship with faith.
And Brandi reveals the way to trust your intuition after your trust has been broken.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, so this week's Therapy Thursday, Whine about It, we
have a very special guest that actually both Catherine and
I know. I'm how do I say this, I'm almost
having like a hard time tiptoeing around certain things because
there's certain things that I had to edit out of
(00:28):
maybe something.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
That I was working on.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
So long story short, the woman that's about to come
on has been someone in both of our lives for
a while.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I go ahead, I don't know her that well. I
do not know her that well. No, I know more
of her, so you know her better than I. But yes,
I have known of her and her story for a while.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, and she's we really connected because we were going
through the same thing the same time seven years ago.
So she has a book out, well, first of her
name's Brandy Wilson, and she's she's incredible. But she's got
a book out called Better Than Okay, and I'm halfway
through it. But it's finding hope and healing after your
marriage ends. I even did like a little thing for
(01:15):
her on her book just to because it's I just
I love I love.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Well.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
First of all, I just I love how she writes too.
It's just very real. You feel like you're in it.
So let's get her on. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Brandy Wilson.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Hey, y'all.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Hi Katherine.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I'm wondering if I get to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yes, I'm usually not on these, and I was like,
I want to be there when Brandy is on. So
I'm here today.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
She had a she had a direct, you know, and
I remember that you had mentioned it to me and
I was like, all right, Kat, this is my episode
with Brandy.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
She's like, I'm there.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yep, I'm here. Yeah, so excited.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
That makes me happy. Jana, how are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, I'm feeling all right.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I just got off a flight early morning, you know,
four am lobby call, so that was fun. But yeah, no,
I'm feeling you know, I'm feeling good, feeling feeling pregnant,
feeling feeling the uh you know, every week it's like, oh,
this hurts a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
This is this is harder. But no, it's great.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I'm super grateful and I'm just I'm so proud of
you and you know your book is is out better
than okay, And first of all, can we I like
I was saying in the beginning of the show, I'm like,
I feel like I need to maybe tiptoe around certain things.
And you know, I've read now I'm halfway through your book,
and the things that you share are you don't you
(02:40):
don't give it all, right, right?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
But also if people google, they would.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Know who you're talking about for sure, Yes, right, yes,
so okay, so you start with what you want to
share for the listeners that have that don't know your story.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
You're correct. I did go through a legal edit before
the book went to final print, just in order to
make sure I was protecting myself. I think I worked
really hard for it to be my personal story of
how God chose to begin in me, or how God
chose to begin a new work in me as I
(03:24):
chose to begin again, and to make the story about
what He had done in my life rather than what
had happened to me. I think, you know, I also
have children, so I'm not going to air out dirty
laundry in a book about their dad. I wanted to
be able to show the strength of how you get
through really hard things and continue to keep going. So, yeah,
(03:49):
my story started when I was eighteen and met a
guy at college who I ended up dating for three
years and then was married at that point. So married
around twenty one t twenty two, and we were in ministry.
He was pastoring a church. We started a church in
Kentucky and we stayed there for five or six years
before moving to Nashville and starting a church here in Nashville.
(04:12):
Cross Point Church, which you know, I really loved being
part of. Cross Point, still exists today. It's still thriving.
In fact, you attend Jana, that's still your church. I
was there for your baptism last year. But we were
in leadership at cross Point for fourteen years, and I
really loved my life in ministry. I loved being the
(04:33):
pastor's wife, engaging with the staff, spending you know, tuesdays
at the office doing staff meeting with them, having lunch together,
having them to my home, just really doing life with
that group of people who had chosen to be part
of the staff community at cross Point. And in twenty sixteen,
(04:53):
my husband at the time chose to step away from
the church and the ministry we had started there, and
from our marriage as well as our family and my
life fell apart overnight. And we all three know that
when your life publicly falls apart, it's been falling apart
behind the scenes for a really long time. But I
still did not expect the whiplash of everything changing as
(05:17):
quickly as it did. So I found myself a single
mom at forty two, kind of starting all over and
putting the pieces of my life back together. And I
realized pretty quickly that the beauty in all of it
was that this time I got to put the pieces
of my life back together the way I chose. So
(05:38):
I wanted to make sure that I was creating the
life that I loved living, and creating a healthy life
for my boys and ies. We move forward.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
In the book, you had said the narrative being repeated
was about an overworked pastor who has burned out. The
reality was I'd been sleeping alone, not by my own choice,
for more than six months. In my heart, I was
sure my suspicions were correct. The brokenness went much deeper.
Trust had once again been broken, and I was experiencing
devastating heartbreak. And so I feel like you give enough
(06:08):
to let people know the pain that you were in,
and I really like I respect that because I think
there was a I would could imagine having that narrative
and being like, did you just want to like scream
it from the rooftops or like this is this is
what happened, and like this is how like hurt I am.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Yes, yeah, of course I wanted to discream it from
the rooftops. I think the way it all unfolded, and
you both remember, it's just like pieces of information. We're
floated here and there, you know, being able to really
dig in and find the truth of what was going
on to forever or it felt like forever, but definitely
(06:49):
a few months for things to unfold. And even in
that there was still deception and manipulation, and there was hiding.
So I think I just I had been in that
scenario quite a few times in my marriage where trust
had been broken. There had been a third party who
was part of my marriage that had happened a ton
(07:10):
a few times I was aware of. I realized at
the end there were quite a few times, quite a
few people I wasn't aware of and didn't know until
the end. I will say, when I was aware of it,
we did what we were quote unquote supposed to do
and did counseling and you know, kind of tried to
work through the problems in the relationship. But when only
(07:32):
one person wants to fix a marriage, that's not enough.
So I was there willing to try to fix it,
put the pieces of our life back together, tried to
really be able to get to a point where there
was a healthier dynamic. But we have to have two
parties who want to do that, two parties each person,
the husband and the wife, have to show up being
(07:53):
willing to do the work together. And I was the
only one willing to do that work. So at that point,
I moved forward with the divorce. And honestly, you know,
never expected divorce to be part of my story. I
don't think anyone does. I mean, you guys are both married.
No one walks the aisle on their wedding day and
things like, oh, I'm going to give it a good
(08:14):
ten years, or you know, when they're opening their wedding gifts,
think I'm going to keep this in the divorce and
give him that. Or you know, the worst part you
know this, Janna, is you don't hold your baby in
the hospital and think I can't wait to spend even
number of Christmases with you. It is just not a
reality that anyone foresees in their marriage.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I want to not pivot, but pivot a little bit.
I would love to talk a little bit about your
boys and how I just I'm so fascinated by y'all
story in general, but just I have so many questions.
But just when you decided you wanted to write a book,
when you were you know, you were prompted for that.
Were you nervous to tell the boys? Were you you know,
(08:59):
how did that go down? Or are they worried about it?
Like I just can imagine that was probably a little scary.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
And one of your chapters too is I googled Dad,
and I was like, I got to read this because
that's going to be something too where I'm like, they're
they're going to google our story one day. And you know,
I have left personally a lot of stuff out of
my book to protect my children, but there are also
some things that you know, they're obviously going to hear
or see that you know has been public from both
(09:26):
of us, and so I think, you know, obviously they
saw the headlines your boys they googled at their school,
I think is what you said in the in the book.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
But then yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I mean Tikat's question, it's like, did you then say like, hey, guys,
I'm writing a book, how do you feel about this?
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Or yeah, you know we are like we have a
great little family unit, the four of us, I call
us us four. And one of the things I did
when we moved into this I sold the house that
I'd lived in when I was married, bought a new house,
new to house, And one of the things I was
super adamant about is like, what do I want the
(10:05):
values of our family to be? And the first one
was honesty, Like this is a house of truth. So
I allowed my kids to come to me with anything,
and I'm super honest with them as well. And you know,
we had to figure that out. But we had all
four of us lived under so much deception and so
many lies that I just was very clear, this is
(10:26):
not the life we live anymore and this home will
not function that way. So a lot of questions had
been asked before I of my kids and about the
reality of the situation before I got to the point
of writing the book. My oldest son has heard me
speak a few times. My other boys, you know, they
see what I post on Instagram, so they kind of
(10:48):
know that I'm not going to write a tell all
about our life. I feel like I have modeled how
to deal with the hurt and the pain that I've
experienced and also choose to live a life where I
am healing and moving forward. So I think because they
have seen that in the life I live, it didn't
(11:10):
necessarily scare them. I also didn't write anything that they
didn't know. Now, they might not have known some of
the details of you know, maybe how I bought the house,
or the details of that weekend in Vegas where my
husband told me he never ever loved me. They might
not have known those details. But as far as the
(11:30):
stuff about trust being broken, and my kids are aware
of that. They actually when my divorce happened, they knew
a lot of information that they filled me on that
I was still trying to put the pieces of life
back together. So I was really clear when I told
them I was writing a book, like, if you have
any questions, I'll answer them. My oldest son has read it.
(11:52):
He loved it, super complimentary, told me he was going
to take some of my tips from the dating chapter
O life, which was interesting. My other two have kind
of skimmed it, flipped through it, you know, haven't finished
it fully, but have both said like, yeah, we think
it's great, and any questions we have will ask you
(12:15):
when we finish reading. So I've just left that door
open for them to be able to ask any questions.
You know, the I Google Dad thing, I think there
were a couple. I think when my oldest son, for instance,
was reading that and he saw I Google Dad, he has,
you know, heart stopped for a second and he was like,
she's going to go there. And then the chapter is
really about telling your kids age appropriate truth, so it's
(12:37):
not necessarily about what was found when he googled, but
it was about the weight he carried because that's the
reality of his life. And then the conversation he and
I had following his admission that he had googled his dad.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Right in the beginning of the book too.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I love that you you start off by saying, you know,
it's obviously the book that you never wanted to write
or to have, and then same for the people that
you know pick it up. But you go to first
to the first thing I want you to hear is
I'm sorry. I'm sorry for your heartache. I'm sorry for
your shattered dreams. I'm sorry you're putting the pieces of
your life back together. And I remember talking to Lisa
Turkers about that. You know, just women in our situation normally,
(13:29):
or in a lot of you know, hurts full situations,
you don't really get the apology you ever want or
deserve or and so you know we had, we had
I believe discussed that too. And I'm curious, how many
years has it been now since your divorce? Six and
a half six and a half years?
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Wow, yeah, we were separated a year before, but yeah,
six and a half years.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So I'm curious have you did you ever receive the
sorry that you felt you deserved?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Yeah? No, and I don't think I ever will. And
I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Because I definitely know you know the route that I
how I got mine for myself.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
But like, how did you? Yeah, how you? How did
you walk through that?
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Yeah? I think forgiveness is a process, and sometimes I
think we jumped to forgiveness too quickly. And then I
also think, you know, Janna, you know this, and sharing kids.
It's like I have forgiven for a lot of the stuff,
but there are still issues that pop up that I
have to continually work through the forgiveness process with. So
(14:37):
for me, a lot of that was my own healing
journey of being able to you know, I remember one
of the things I did. I was actually at on
site doing the Living Centered program and a program Oh
my gosh, it's excellent. One of the things I did
was I wrote down everything that he had done that
hurt me, you know, all the way down to like
(14:58):
using my miscarriage as an illustration in a book and
not telling me until I read it, you know, like
details of our life that were really hard for me
to navigate, and I wrote it all down. I had
a couple of pages. I had a friend there that
I was close to, and I just said, I need
to read these out loud. So he met me outside
(15:18):
by the fire pit. I went through and I read
every single offense out loud, and then after I tore
it up and burned it. It just allowed me to
be able to release a lot of that anger and
frustration and disappointment that I had been carrying, so I
could get to a point of being able to extend
(15:39):
forgiveness even though I'd never received an apology.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Did he know that you were writing this book.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
He has referenced it a few times in communication, but
not specific so you didn't you didn't.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Tell him like before, like, hey, I have a book
coming out. Okay, No, I've always wondered like how to
how certain people approach it because I when I was
talking to my legal my legal team at HarperCollins, I
was like, you know, legally does he get or read
or like cause it yeah, they go through legal passes
and everything, and you know, for me, I was like
(16:14):
I I I ended up just going I just want
you to know I do have a book coming out.
And what I said to him, I was like, it's
not about you, like, it's truly about my journey. Yes,
my our stories are in there kind of like what
you've put in here, like your stories, but it's about
your growth and your healing. And that's what I was,
you know, trying to convey. But I think you know,
(16:35):
it's it's just it's tough because I'm like, do you
want to read it like beforehand or I'm like nothing,
I'm not going to change anything, you know. I'm like,
it's it was like, trust me, I've left a lot out,
you know. I'm like because it's.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Really not about.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
You can later exactly, but it's like it's protection for
the kids, you know, and that's you know, so that's
I get why you left certain things out. Yeah, but
you know, yeah, the sorry piece, I was just curious
if he end up coming back.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
But that tracks well, here's my question with that, And
I keep taking it kind of back to the kids,
and a lot of it I think is because my
parents got divorced when I was older and I didn't
know anything, and so I went through, you know, my
mom was kind of the one that left the house,
(17:26):
that was the one that I'm leaving. So I just
went through this assumption that she did X, Y and Z,
and We're not going to have a relationship. I want
nothing to do with her. How do you handle that
with the boy? Like how is their relationship with their
father with knowing what they know, and like, how do
how do you help handle that situation?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
I honestly stay out of their relationship with their dad
unless they come to me with something. My kids at
this point are twenty two, nineteen and seventeen, so to
going to college, high school, and it got a lot
easier when they could drive themselves on the weekends that
they go there. You know, I have the kids the
majority of the time. It's like a seventy thirty split,
(18:12):
so they're with me the majority of the time. So
I really am the one who steps in and I
do all the doctor's appointments and the parenting, you know stuff.
But as far as their relationship, if they want to
come to me to talk about something, I am open
to allowing them to be a play, allowing myself to
be a place that they convent. And one of the
(18:34):
things I try to do, Catherine is definitely affirm what
they're feeling so that they learn to trust their gut.
I think one of the things that kept me so
locked into the marriage and the dysfunction and the unhealth
of that marriage is I was married to someone who
was a pastor of a super successful church, one of
the fastest growing churches in the nation. And everyone in
(18:58):
my life told me how amazing he was. Everyone was
telling me how awesome, you know, his messages were, how
they changed their life, all of that kind of stuff.
The staff loved working with him, So I almost adopted
this mentality of I guess I'm the problem if the
person that I see on stage and the person in
(19:18):
my home are not the same person then, and everyone's
telling me he's amazing that. I guess I'm the problem
because when I had those intuitions, no one was affirming
those for me. So therefore I felt like I couldn't
trust myself. I couldn't trust my gut. I couldn't trust,
you know, my women's intuition because it went against everything
that everyone else was telling me. So when my kids
(19:41):
come to me and they want to have a discussion,
I end up having that discussion with them, and I
affirm the truth of the situation. I affirm the reality
I'm not gonna talk terribly about their dad because I
know that's not healthy for them. I'm also, you know,
I try. When I'm communicating with him, I separate, like
(20:03):
am I responding to my kid's father or am I
responding to my ex husband. I can be a lot
more grace filled and kind when I'm responding to my
kid's father than I can when I'm responding to my
ex husband. So I think when kids come to parents
with questions and they say, you know, something to the
effect of like, it's like he is always lying. I
(20:26):
don't think a mother should ever say back, your dad's
a liar. She can affirm your dad is incapable of
telling the truth. So I know that's really hard for
you to be able to have conversation with him. Now,
it's the same reality. It's just saying in a gentle
way and also affirming what they're realizing. The truth of
(20:47):
the situation is.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, you basically said in the book, Yeah, he was
saying like your dad is a liar, one approach you
could take to affirm their feelings, and then saying your
dad has an inability to tell the truth. So it's
the same information, different delivery. Firms your child is experiencing,
but doesn't use harsh language. And I again, I've just
we've talked about it before on here, but like I
know someone that's dealing with that parent, you know, just
(21:08):
that toxic you know, talking bad about the other parent
to the kid, and the kid just has so much
anxiety and it's just like filled with it, and it's
like oh God, and you know this person's calling and
like you know, it's like, oh I hate that because
I'm like I don't want anyone to feel that anxiety
or have the other parent. And my mom when my
parents got divorced. My mom was like, this is my
relationship with you. Your dad has to make your own his
(21:31):
own relationship with you. And so my dad would, you know,
call and be like, well, tell the kids they need
to see me. And she's like, I don't need to
tell the kids. If they want to see you, they're
going to come see you. And I was at the
age where I knew of things going on, so I'm like,
I didn't want to see him, and that was my choice,
and that was his relationship to mend, not hers. She's like,
I didn't cause this. I don't have to mend y'all's relationship.
(21:53):
It is yours to mend. And that's something that I
always remembered, like even now in this situation where I mean,
obviously you know I have Disney told the story to
my kids, like why we weren't together.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
I'm like, well, we're just better off as friends, you know. Yeah,
so that's my like Disney PG.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
But you know, one day when she asked and wants
out the conversation and age appropriate, I'll be like, you know, what,
what do you you know? And there again, there's certain
things I will not tell them just because I don't
ever want them to have that version of their dad,
because I think by that time, hopefully they'll they'll they
won't even need to ask because they'll have the version
that they know for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah, it's just such a good point because it's it's
such a happy medium because you know, my parents to
do my dad didn't do that, but I would have
loved to have been affirmed with I know that your
you know your father is incapable. You know. So it's
just it's just so fascinating to me because I think
it's just really important for people to hear, you know,
both versions of how you should act on both sides
(22:53):
of it as a parent, and how to be honest
but not bash like that's that's got to be a
really hard I don't envy all for that because that's
got to be very hard but so important.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Well, and it's interesting too when you go back to
what you said about when you're on the phone and
I do the same thing. I'm like, Okay, when I'm
talking to him, it's like, I have to stay in
my you are the father of my children, you are
not max husband. But it's hard because something came up
a couple of weeks ago where we both just got
activated with our past stuff and I'm like, I don't
(23:25):
care how many years removed we are, these triggers are
still there and they still affect me the same way,
no matter how much therapy or whatever. And we both
were just like and we had to were like, all right,
we're in our old marriage and we need to hang
up because this is so not healthy.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yes, but it's hard to do.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
It's very hard, yes, But yeah, when you can look
at it, just like, as you know, the father, I'm like, well,
you're not bad. But then I'm like, ooh when I
think of you. But then sometimes when I think about that,
I'm like, wait a minute, I can't trust you, don't
let you in.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
So it's like a weird yeah line.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Well, and keeping that in mind as your kids get
older and they have relationships with them, and if things
come up where they feel like they're not I'm not
saying that will happen, but if things come up or
they feel like he's not being honest with them or whatever,
and then how you handle that.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, I wouldn't be like, well, welcome to my life.
I'd be like, well, you know, that's what I think
that's what. That's what I wouldn't have said, well, welcome
to the seven years of my life.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Good.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
No, I would obviously be like, you know, sometimes it's
maybe hard for people because of their own past. Yes,
you know for sure, when did you actually start writing
better than okay?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:36):
I started writing it last year in twenty twenty two,
the beginning of the year, and then wrapped it up
in July twenty twenty two, so you know, it went
to the publisher then and went through lunch of rounds
of edits, as you know, and came out this July.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And I know a lot can change to you know,
even in a year. So is there something that you
wish you would have added or something that like you
kind of know now that it's not in the book?
Speaker 4 (25:06):
Yeah, I do think there are some places I wish
I might have expanded a little bit more. I think
I think I would have maybe, And maybe it's the
next book, Danna, I don't know, just talk about how
to settle in and really get to know yourself again.
That is definitely identity as a big part of the book.
(25:26):
But I just think so many women struggle with that,
even if it's not divorce, it's you know, they're taking
care of kids, or you know they have jobs, and
their identity is wrapped up in what they do rather
than who they are. Maybe digging into that a little
bit more. I feel like, you know, I've only had
one like serious relationship in the last six and a
(25:47):
half years, and I'm single again. So it's just almost
like navigating a second breakup post divorce. Navigating a breakup
is different than what it was when I know my
divorce happened. So I think just like figuring out and
being solid in who you are and what you want
out of your life and taking steps to move toward that,
(26:10):
I would probably expand on a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
So, I mean, obviously I knew about your relationship because
we we've you know, we we do. We touch base, yes,
and my heart, I was so upset when you when
you said it, you know, you guys broke up. But
I also I'm still so excited for you because I
know that you know your your great love is out
(26:46):
there and you know you've done all this work, and
do you believe that or did you kind of get
to the place where you're like you feel defeated again.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
I think initially I felt defeated again. I think, you know,
it's life is just such a journey of learning, and
I had a lot of sadness in regards to that breakup,
and it took me a little while to accept that
sadness of like, yeah, I'm sad I don't have that
partner that I wanted, and to be honest, I'm ready
for that relationship. I'm ready, you know, to have someone
(27:18):
who I partner with in life and I share life with. So, yeah,
that was definitely hard, and there's a lot of sadness
to dig through. I think I didn't expect to be.
My therapist said to me, when you go through grief,
it's like you're swimming in a pool of all of
your grief rather than just the grief attached to that situation.
(27:39):
So navigating that and finding maybe the parameters of am
I grieving this person? Am I grieving the fact that
I'm single again? And just being able to identify that
was huge. I think one of the approaches I've realized
is I've spent the summer kind of just evaluating and
journaling and processing, is that, you know, there is a
(27:59):
longing in my heart to be connected with someone in
a romantic way again, to be in a permanent relationship.
And I believe the way I'm wired, God created me
to desire connection. He created all of us for connection,
and I'm highly relational, and yeah, I think that's a
long end he placed in my heart. I think it's
(28:20):
something that he wants for me as well. And the
timing I get a little impatient on, but yeah, I
do believe that that will be part of my story,
is having someone that I share life with again. And
I think for me, I want that for me. And
then you know, a benefit of that would be my
kids getting to see a healthy relationship modeled for them.
(28:41):
So I would love for my kids to have that
reality that they get to experience as well.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, because I can imagine it's you know, when the
other partner moves on and starts a family, you know,
it's like it's you got to have almost like whiplash. Yeah,
I mean, I don't know what my ex is thinking,
but I'm like, again, he didn't want to be in
our marriage, so yeah, I don't think they But I
think if I wanted to be in the marriage and
(29:09):
he was.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
I just I think I would my head would just
be spinning.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Yeah, and you know, Jana, I will say this, by
the time I filed for divorce, I did not want
to be in that marriage.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Well, because it's something you said in the book too,
and I just want to go back to that because
I was like, man, that is you know, that's a
big saying. Is you said you've never missed him, but
you just felt lonely. And I'm like, is that like,
not one moment did you miss like even the idea
of it or the like.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Not even having a partner. I think I missed you know,
I've missed it probably the most. In parenting I talk
in the Loneliness chapter of one of the places I
still experienced loneliness is when one of our kids does
something major and I just don't have that person to
look at and say, like, man, he's a really great
kid and I'm so proud of him. I don't have
(30:03):
that shared experience with someone. Now. I have friends who
show up and family members who show up, and my
in laws are still part of my life. I call
them my outlaws. There's still but I just don't, you know,
have that person to be able to say, like, man,
he's a really great kid, and I do still feel
loneliness there, but as far by the time I got
(30:23):
to filing for divorce, so much had been uncovered over
my twenty years of marriage that no, I did not
want that relationship anymore. I think at that point I had,
you know, he had been out of my bedroom for
a year, he'd been out of the house for six months.
I realized in a lot of ways it was easier
(30:45):
with him gone. I function, he traveled a lot with
work anyway, and the kids and I kind of had
our own rhythm. And and when I removed the person
who caused me to walk on neckshelves and always you know,
doubt myself and really, you know, was harmful for my
self confidence. When that person was removed from my home,
(31:06):
I felt so much relief that I was really as
devastated as I was. And I definitely grieved the loss
of the dreams I had for my family unit. And
then I grieved the loss of the dreams that I
have for myself in a marriage with him. But I
didn't miss him right, So I felt like God really
healed my heart quickly in relationship shift to him. I
(31:28):
grieved the loss of being part of the church for
a really long time.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I was wondering how your relationship with God changed
after that. I mean, you know, being married to the
you know, main pastor, and and yeah, it's like, were
you kind of like God would It's you know, did
you not go to church for a while?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Were you angry? Like were you angry at him like.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
That? I totally was. I was angry at him. I
was frustrated. I had watched him, you know, restore a
ton of marriages, just because we were in ministry and
we had a front row seat to watching the way
God worked in people's lives. I had friends whose marriages
have been restored from you know, similar situations. So yeah,
(32:15):
I just really believed that God was going to show
up and heal our marriage and heal both of us.
I think in the process of that, what I realized
is that God wanted to heal me so how and
God wanted to restore me, and redemption was found. It
was found in the way that I chose to live
my life as post divorce. But yeah, I showed up
(32:37):
to God with all of that frustration and anger and
bitterness and like, what are you talking about. I have
spent twenty years serving you. My entire adult life has
been you know, forwarding the mission of your church, and
this is going to be what I get in return,
and asking the white questions and fighting about that this
isn't fair and all of that kind of stuff. I think,
(33:00):
you know, for me, it was really interesting what I
realized was in parenting we talk a lot about attachment
and how attachment then moves into your relationship, whether you
have secure attachment or anxious attachment, avoidant attachment. And I
think walking through that divorce, when my life went from
being surrounded by thousands of people all the time and
(33:20):
it shrunk too. I had three people in my therapist
I talked to on a regular basis. I spent a
lot of time talking to God and yelling at God
and questioning God. And it allowed me to create a
secure attachment in my relationship with God in a way
that I didn't expect because He stayed through all of
the you know, cussing and yelling and crying and screaming
(33:42):
and questioning and anger and continue to show up and
remind me that he loved me and he was going
to take care of me. And that wasn't easy to
you know, have to show up that way, but I
didn't have anyone else that I could yell and scream at.
I felt like I didn't have anyone else I could
(34:02):
yell and scream at because I really kind of isolated
myself out of shame of the situation that was happening.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, it's something you said.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Earlier.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
He had said, like, you know, I never really loved
you anyways, And there was actually a moment in my
book I wrote about that where he said, you know,
I never really loved you, and I kind of know,
I know my take on why I think they say that,
But how did you kind of rest with that knowing
that's not the truth. It's just I look at it
as yeahs like it's he didn't maybe love himself or yep, yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
For a while I was like, we didn't love me,
like that's all a lie.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Well it's hard, but.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
It's heart faults here though. I know a lot of
women have probably heard that. So that's why I'm like,
what is your you know, take on it.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
It's so interesting. I was working with a coaching client
yesterday and she said, I don't understand he rewrote our
entire history, and yeah, that's what ends up happening. And
my is they do it to relieve some of the
guilt that they're feeling with the decisions and the choices
they're making. They're trying to rewrite history. They're trying to
(35:10):
take away some of the pain that they're feeling because
they realize that they're causing other people pain, so they
rewrite that narrative and create their own in order to
justify those choices and decisions that are causing pain. What's
your take on it, Danet, tell me.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
I mean that's yeah, that's one should be your take.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, everyone's take out.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, they don't want to carry that shame and the sadness,
and you know, so they just want to keep on hurting.
And yeah, rewriting. I always looked at it as like
a mirror, Well you don't love yourself. Yeah you're going
to say probably some truth to that, yeah too, so
we can mold But I like.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
That, And they might just be trying to hurt you
in the moment as well.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But I think at the end of the day, though,
like in the you know, the I think this your
son was saying, he goes he was sending you text
messages and you said the text that sit out the
most was one that said, I agree, I wouldn't change
our lives for anything, and that made me get teary
because I'm like, you've done so much for your kids
(36:13):
and this isn't the life that you wanted, but you've
created a safe place for them, and I just think
that's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Thank you. Yeah, that was a super special moment. I
was speaking, and in the course of my message, I
was talking about how this is not the story I
wanted for myself, it's not the story I wanted for
my kids, but at this point, I wouldn't change our
lives for anything. We have created this really great family
(36:41):
unit where nothing is missing, and I was just expounding
on that. And when I went to the Green Gream
after there was a series of texts and it was
really sweet. He was like, oh, I like, you're outfitting.
That joke was funny. The audience laughed. But then he
got to that point where he said I could agree more.
I wouldn't change our lives for anything, and that was
(37:03):
the point that I was like, Okay, we have redefined
family and redefined our family unit to where yeah, there's
nothing missing. The four of us are a complete family,
and we show up for one another and we love
each other really well.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
I love that, Brandy.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I'm just I'm I'm so happy for you, and I'm
you know, I want everyone to go get your book
better than okay, finding hope and healing after your marriage ends.
And then what else are you? So you said you're
coaching people. That's what You've been doing for that for
a long time.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
I've been doing that for a long time. That's my sake.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
So where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Then?
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Love Brandy Wilson dot com Brandy with an I, and
then that's my website and then on Instagram. I love
Brandy Wilson as well. So well, thank you for coming on,
thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
I miss you and let's get together soon please once
once school starts back up.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yah. Yeah, Sarah wants to see you too, Sarah Brice
says Chris. Everybody loves everybody.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
But yeah, let's I'll text you on the side and
we'll we'll figure something that.
Speaker 4 (38:07):
It's great, Tokay, thank you so much for her too
amazing book.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Seriously, it's so good. It's just I feel everything that
you write. It's just honest and it feels to me.
It's like, I know you wrote this. You know it
comes from your voice, which I love.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
So I love that.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
All right, bye Brandy.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Brandy, She's such a beautiful human.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I'm so happy for her. I was I gotta tell
you that. When she sent me the text with her
and now boyfriend broke up, I was like no, because
I just was like they're dated for us, definitely over
a year.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
And like how soon ago did they break up?
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Like a couple of months ago?
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I know, but again it's not like it's all I
was also like, but yay, because you're gonna find and
you know, and she's happy, Like she's happier.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
And she knows what she wants. You know, she knows.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
I know it's not all about relationships, but you know
when someone's like ready and wants that, like that's where
it's right.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yeah, well that's what she was saying. She is ready,
like she is ready for that companion. Maybe she should
go on the No, I don't know what you're going
to say, but probably not.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
I was like thinking like an app or something we
can you know.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
That could be a fun girls nice Iran.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Let's just like let's get her on hinge or something.
Or just start like, oh, you know we should do
because you know I'm met my love on Instagram. We
should just sliden, do I know. I'm like I'm trying
to think. I'm like, what, what person can we hook
her up with?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
But that'll be our homework. We'll think about that anyways.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
See you light up? Are you
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, so this week's Therapy Thursday, Whine about It, we
have a very special guest that actually both Catherine and
I know. I'm how do I say this, I'm almost
having like a hard time tiptoeing around certain things because
there's certain things that I had to edit out of
(00:28):
maybe something.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
That I was working on.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
So long story short, the woman that's about to come
on has been someone in both of our lives for
a while.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I go ahead, I don't know her that well. I
do not know her that well. No, I know more
of her, so you know her better than I. But yes,
I have known of her and her story for a while.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, and she's we really connected because we were going
through the same thing the same time seven years ago.
So she has a book out, well, first of her
name's Brandy Wilson, and she's she's incredible. But she's got
a book out called Better Than Okay, and I'm halfway
through it. But it's finding hope and healing after your
marriage ends. I even did like a little thing for
(01:15):
her on her book just to because it's I just
I love I love.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Well.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
First of all, I just I love how she writes too.
It's just very real. You feel like you're in it.
So let's get her on. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Brandy Wilson.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Hey, y'all.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Hi Katherine.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I'm wondering if I get to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yes, I'm usually not on these, and I was like,
I want to be there when Brandy is on. So
I'm here today.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
She had a she had a direct, you know, and
I remember that you had mentioned it to me and
I was like, all right, Kat, this is my episode
with Brandy.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
She's like, I'm there.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yep, I'm here. Yeah, so excited.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
That makes me happy. Jana, how are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, I'm feeling all right.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I just got off a flight early morning, you know,
four am lobby call, so that was fun. But yeah, no,
I'm feeling you know, I'm feeling good, feeling feeling pregnant,
feeling feeling the uh you know, every week it's like, oh,
this hurts a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
This is this is harder. But no, it's great.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I'm super grateful and I'm just I'm so proud of
you and you know your book is is out better
than okay, And first of all, can we I like
I was saying in the beginning of the show, I'm like,
I feel like I need to maybe tiptoe around certain things.
And you know, I've read now I'm halfway through your book,
and the things that you share are you don't you
(02:40):
don't give it all, right, right?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
But also if people google, they would.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Know who you're talking about for sure, Yes, right, yes,
so okay, so you start with what you want to
share for the listeners that have that don't know your story.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
You're correct. I did go through a legal edit before
the book went to final print, just in order to
make sure I was protecting myself. I think I worked
really hard for it to be my personal story of
how God chose to begin in me, or how God
chose to begin a new work in me as I
(03:24):
chose to begin again, and to make the story about
what He had done in my life rather than what
had happened to me. I think, you know, I also
have children, so I'm not going to air out dirty
laundry in a book about their dad. I wanted to
be able to show the strength of how you get
through really hard things and continue to keep going. So, yeah,
(03:49):
my story started when I was eighteen and met a
guy at college who I ended up dating for three
years and then was married at that point. So married
around twenty one t twenty two, and we were in ministry.
He was pastoring a church. We started a church in
Kentucky and we stayed there for five or six years
before moving to Nashville and starting a church here in Nashville.
(04:12):
Cross Point Church, which you know, I really loved being
part of. Cross Point, still exists today. It's still thriving.
In fact, you attend Jana, that's still your church. I
was there for your baptism last year. But we were
in leadership at cross Point for fourteen years, and I
really loved my life in ministry. I loved being the
(04:33):
pastor's wife, engaging with the staff, spending you know, tuesdays
at the office doing staff meeting with them, having lunch together,
having them to my home, just really doing life with
that group of people who had chosen to be part
of the staff community at cross Point. And in twenty sixteen,
(04:53):
my husband at the time chose to step away from
the church and the ministry we had started there, and
from our marriage as well as our family and my
life fell apart overnight. And we all three know that
when your life publicly falls apart, it's been falling apart
behind the scenes for a really long time. But I
still did not expect the whiplash of everything changing as
(05:17):
quickly as it did. So I found myself a single
mom at forty two, kind of starting all over and
putting the pieces of my life back together. And I
realized pretty quickly that the beauty in all of it
was that this time I got to put the pieces
of my life back together the way I chose. So
(05:38):
I wanted to make sure that I was creating the
life that I loved living, and creating a healthy life
for my boys and ies. We move forward.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
In the book, you had said the narrative being repeated
was about an overworked pastor who has burned out. The
reality was I'd been sleeping alone, not by my own choice,
for more than six months. In my heart, I was
sure my suspicions were correct. The brokenness went much deeper.
Trust had once again been broken, and I was experiencing
devastating heartbreak. And so I feel like you give enough
(06:08):
to let people know the pain that you were in,
and I really like I respect that because I think
there was a I would could imagine having that narrative
and being like, did you just want to like scream
it from the rooftops or like this is this is
what happened, and like this is how like hurt I am.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Yes, yeah, of course I wanted to discream it from
the rooftops. I think the way it all unfolded, and
you both remember, it's just like pieces of information. We're
floated here and there, you know, being able to really
dig in and find the truth of what was going
on to forever or it felt like forever, but definitely
(06:49):
a few months for things to unfold. And even in
that there was still deception and manipulation, and there was hiding.
So I think I just I had been in that
scenario quite a few times in my marriage where trust
had been broken. There had been a third party who
was part of my marriage that had happened a ton
(07:10):
a few times I was aware of. I realized at
the end there were quite a few times, quite a
few people I wasn't aware of and didn't know until
the end. I will say, when I was aware of it,
we did what we were quote unquote supposed to do
and did counseling and you know, kind of tried to
work through the problems in the relationship. But when only
(07:32):
one person wants to fix a marriage, that's not enough.
So I was there willing to try to fix it,
put the pieces of our life back together, tried to
really be able to get to a point where there
was a healthier dynamic. But we have to have two
parties who want to do that, two parties each person,
the husband and the wife, have to show up being
(07:53):
willing to do the work together. And I was the
only one willing to do that work. So at that point,
I moved forward with the divorce. And honestly, you know,
never expected divorce to be part of my story. I
don't think anyone does. I mean, you guys are both married.
No one walks the aisle on their wedding day and
things like, oh, I'm going to give it a good
(08:14):
ten years, or you know, when they're opening their wedding gifts,
think I'm going to keep this in the divorce and
give him that. Or you know, the worst part you
know this, Janna, is you don't hold your baby in
the hospital and think I can't wait to spend even
number of Christmases with you. It is just not a
reality that anyone foresees in their marriage.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I want to not pivot, but pivot a little bit.
I would love to talk a little bit about your
boys and how I just I'm so fascinated by y'all
story in general, but just I have so many questions.
But just when you decided you wanted to write a book,
when you were you know, you were prompted for that.
Were you nervous to tell the boys? Were you you know,
(08:59):
how did that go down? Or are they worried about it?
Like I just can imagine that was probably a little scary.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
And one of your chapters too is I googled Dad,
and I was like, I got to read this because
that's going to be something too where I'm like, they're
they're going to google our story one day. And you know,
I have left personally a lot of stuff out of
my book to protect my children, but there are also
some things that you know, they're obviously going to hear
or see that you know has been public from both
(09:26):
of us, and so I think, you know, obviously they
saw the headlines your boys they googled at their school,
I think is what you said in the in the book.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
But then yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I mean Tikat's question, it's like, did you then say like, hey, guys,
I'm writing a book, how do you feel about this?
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Or yeah, you know we are like we have a
great little family unit, the four of us, I call
us us four. And one of the things I did
when we moved into this I sold the house that
I'd lived in when I was married, bought a new house,
new to house, And one of the things I was
super adamant about is like, what do I want the
(10:05):
values of our family to be? And the first one
was honesty, Like this is a house of truth. So
I allowed my kids to come to me with anything,
and I'm super honest with them as well. And you know,
we had to figure that out. But we had all
four of us lived under so much deception and so
many lies that I just was very clear, this is
(10:26):
not the life we live anymore and this home will
not function that way. So a lot of questions had
been asked before I of my kids and about the
reality of the situation before I got to the point
of writing the book. My oldest son has heard me
speak a few times. My other boys, you know, they
see what I post on Instagram, so they kind of
(10:48):
know that I'm not going to write a tell all
about our life. I feel like I have modeled how
to deal with the hurt and the pain that I've
experienced and also choose to live a life where I
am healing and moving forward. So I think because they
have seen that in the life I live, it didn't
(11:10):
necessarily scare them. I also didn't write anything that they
didn't know. Now, they might not have known some of
the details of you know, maybe how I bought the house,
or the details of that weekend in Vegas where my
husband told me he never ever loved me. They might
not have known those details. But as far as the
(11:30):
stuff about trust being broken, and my kids are aware
of that. They actually when my divorce happened, they knew
a lot of information that they filled me on that
I was still trying to put the pieces of life
back together. So I was really clear when I told
them I was writing a book, like, if you have
any questions, I'll answer them. My oldest son has read it.
(11:52):
He loved it, super complimentary, told me he was going
to take some of my tips from the dating chapter
O life, which was interesting. My other two have kind
of skimmed it, flipped through it, you know, haven't finished
it fully, but have both said like, yeah, we think
it's great, and any questions we have will ask you
(12:15):
when we finish reading. So I've just left that door
open for them to be able to ask any questions.
You know, the I Google Dad thing, I think there
were a couple. I think when my oldest son, for instance,
was reading that and he saw I Google Dad, he has,
you know, heart stopped for a second and he was like,
she's going to go there. And then the chapter is
really about telling your kids age appropriate truth, so it's
(12:37):
not necessarily about what was found when he googled, but
it was about the weight he carried because that's the
reality of his life. And then the conversation he and
I had following his admission that he had googled his dad.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Right in the beginning of the book too.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I love that you you start off by saying, you know,
it's obviously the book that you never wanted to write
or to have, and then same for the people that
you know pick it up. But you go to first
to the first thing I want you to hear is
I'm sorry. I'm sorry for your heartache. I'm sorry for
your shattered dreams. I'm sorry you're putting the pieces of
your life back together. And I remember talking to Lisa
Turkers about that. You know, just women in our situation normally,
(13:29):
or in a lot of you know, hurts full situations,
you don't really get the apology you ever want or
deserve or and so you know we had, we had
I believe discussed that too. And I'm curious, how many
years has it been now since your divorce? Six and
a half six and a half years?
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Wow, yeah, we were separated a year before, but yeah,
six and a half years.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So I'm curious have you did you ever receive the
sorry that you felt you deserved?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Yeah? No, and I don't think I ever will. And
I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Because I definitely know you know the route that I
how I got mine for myself.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
But like, how did you? Yeah, how you? How did
you walk through that?
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Yeah? I think forgiveness is a process, and sometimes I
think we jumped to forgiveness too quickly. And then I
also think, you know, Janna, you know this, and sharing kids.
It's like I have forgiven for a lot of the stuff,
but there are still issues that pop up that I
have to continually work through the forgiveness process with. So
(14:37):
for me, a lot of that was my own healing
journey of being able to you know, I remember one
of the things I did. I was actually at on
site doing the Living Centered program and a program Oh
my gosh, it's excellent. One of the things I did
was I wrote down everything that he had done that
hurt me, you know, all the way down to like
(14:58):
using my miscarriage as an illustration in a book and
not telling me until I read it, you know, like
details of our life that were really hard for me
to navigate, and I wrote it all down. I had
a couple of pages. I had a friend there that
I was close to, and I just said, I need
to read these out loud. So he met me outside
(15:18):
by the fire pit. I went through and I read
every single offense out loud, and then after I tore
it up and burned it. It just allowed me to
be able to release a lot of that anger and
frustration and disappointment that I had been carrying, so I
could get to a point of being able to extend
(15:39):
forgiveness even though I'd never received an apology.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Did he know that you were writing this book.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
He has referenced it a few times in communication, but
not specific so you didn't you didn't.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Tell him like before, like, hey, I have a book
coming out. Okay, No, I've always wondered like how to
how certain people approach it because I when I was
talking to my legal my legal team at HarperCollins, I
was like, you know, legally does he get or read
or like cause it yeah, they go through legal passes
and everything, and you know, for me, I was like
(16:14):
I I I ended up just going I just want
you to know I do have a book coming out.
And what I said to him, I was like, it's
not about you, like, it's truly about my journey. Yes,
my our stories are in there kind of like what
you've put in here, like your stories, but it's about
your growth and your healing. And that's what I was,
you know, trying to convey. But I think you know,
(16:35):
it's it's just it's tough because I'm like, do you
want to read it like beforehand or I'm like nothing,
I'm not going to change anything, you know. I'm like,
it's it was like, trust me, I've left a lot out,
you know. I'm like because it's.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Really not about.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
You can later exactly, but it's like it's protection for
the kids, you know, and that's you know, so that's
I get why you left certain things out. Yeah, but
you know, yeah, the sorry piece, I was just curious
if he end up coming back.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
But that tracks well, here's my question with that, And
I keep taking it kind of back to the kids,
and a lot of it I think is because my
parents got divorced when I was older and I didn't
know anything, and so I went through, you know, my
mom was kind of the one that left the house,
(17:26):
that was the one that I'm leaving. So I just
went through this assumption that she did X, Y and Z,
and We're not going to have a relationship. I want
nothing to do with her. How do you handle that
with the boy? Like how is their relationship with their
father with knowing what they know, and like, how do
how do you help handle that situation?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
I honestly stay out of their relationship with their dad
unless they come to me with something. My kids at
this point are twenty two, nineteen and seventeen, so to
going to college, high school, and it got a lot
easier when they could drive themselves on the weekends that
they go there. You know, I have the kids the
majority of the time. It's like a seventy thirty split,
(18:12):
so they're with me the majority of the time. So
I really am the one who steps in and I
do all the doctor's appointments and the parenting, you know stuff.
But as far as their relationship, if they want to
come to me to talk about something, I am open
to allowing them to be a play, allowing myself to
be a place that they convent. And one of the
(18:34):
things I try to do, Catherine is definitely affirm what
they're feeling so that they learn to trust their gut.
I think one of the things that kept me so
locked into the marriage and the dysfunction and the unhealth
of that marriage is I was married to someone who
was a pastor of a super successful church, one of
the fastest growing churches in the nation. And everyone in
(18:58):
my life told me how amazing he was. Everyone was
telling me how awesome, you know, his messages were, how
they changed their life, all of that kind of stuff.
The staff loved working with him, So I almost adopted
this mentality of I guess I'm the problem if the
person that I see on stage and the person in
(19:18):
my home are not the same person then, and everyone's
telling me he's amazing that. I guess I'm the problem
because when I had those intuitions, no one was affirming
those for me. So therefore I felt like I couldn't
trust myself. I couldn't trust my gut. I couldn't trust,
you know, my women's intuition because it went against everything
that everyone else was telling me. So when my kids
(19:41):
come to me and they want to have a discussion,
I end up having that discussion with them, and I
affirm the truth of the situation. I affirm the reality
I'm not gonna talk terribly about their dad because I
know that's not healthy for them. I'm also, you know,
I try. When I'm communicating with him, I separate, like
(20:03):
am I responding to my kid's father or am I
responding to my ex husband. I can be a lot
more grace filled and kind when I'm responding to my
kid's father than I can when I'm responding to my
ex husband. So I think when kids come to parents
with questions and they say, you know, something to the
effect of like, it's like he is always lying. I
(20:26):
don't think a mother should ever say back, your dad's
a liar. She can affirm your dad is incapable of
telling the truth. So I know that's really hard for
you to be able to have conversation with him. Now,
it's the same reality. It's just saying in a gentle
way and also affirming what they're realizing. The truth of
(20:47):
the situation is.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, you basically said in the book, Yeah, he was
saying like your dad is a liar, one approach you
could take to affirm their feelings, and then saying your
dad has an inability to tell the truth. So it's
the same information, different delivery. Firms your child is experiencing,
but doesn't use harsh language. And I again, I've just
we've talked about it before on here, but like I
know someone that's dealing with that parent, you know, just
(21:08):
that toxic you know, talking bad about the other parent
to the kid, and the kid just has so much
anxiety and it's just like filled with it, and it's
like oh God, and you know this person's calling and
like you know, it's like, oh I hate that because
I'm like I don't want anyone to feel that anxiety
or have the other parent. And my mom when my
parents got divorced. My mom was like, this is my
relationship with you. Your dad has to make your own his
(21:31):
own relationship with you. And so my dad would, you know,
call and be like, well, tell the kids they need
to see me. And she's like, I don't need to
tell the kids. If they want to see you, they're
going to come see you. And I was at the
age where I knew of things going on, so I'm like,
I didn't want to see him, and that was my choice,
and that was his relationship to mend, not hers. She's like,
I didn't cause this. I don't have to mend y'all's relationship.
(21:53):
It is yours to mend. And that's something that I
always remembered, like even now in this situation where I mean,
obviously you know I have Disney told the story to
my kids, like why we weren't together.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
I'm like, well, we're just better off as friends, you know. Yeah,
so that's my like Disney PG.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
But you know, one day when she asked and wants
out the conversation and age appropriate, I'll be like, you know, what,
what do you you know? And there again, there's certain
things I will not tell them just because I don't
ever want them to have that version of their dad,
because I think by that time, hopefully they'll they'll they
won't even need to ask because they'll have the version
that they know for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah, it's just such a good point because it's it's
such a happy medium because you know, my parents to
do my dad didn't do that, but I would have
loved to have been affirmed with I know that your
you know your father is incapable. You know. So it's
just it's just so fascinating to me because I think
it's just really important for people to hear, you know,
both versions of how you should act on both sides
(22:53):
of it as a parent, and how to be honest
but not bash like that's that's got to be a
really hard I don't envy all for that because that's
got to be very hard but so important.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Well, and it's interesting too when you go back to
what you said about when you're on the phone and
I do the same thing. I'm like, Okay, when I'm
talking to him, it's like, I have to stay in
my you are the father of my children, you are
not max husband. But it's hard because something came up
a couple of weeks ago where we both just got
activated with our past stuff and I'm like, I don't
(23:25):
care how many years removed we are, these triggers are
still there and they still affect me the same way,
no matter how much therapy or whatever. And we both
were just like and we had to were like, all right,
we're in our old marriage and we need to hang
up because this is so not healthy.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yes, but it's hard to do.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
It's very hard, yes, But yeah, when you can look
at it, just like, as you know, the father, I'm like, well,
you're not bad. But then I'm like, ooh when I
think of you. But then sometimes when I think about that,
I'm like, wait a minute, I can't trust you, don't
let you in.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
So it's like a weird yeah line.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Well, and keeping that in mind as your kids get
older and they have relationships with them, and if things
come up where they feel like they're not I'm not
saying that will happen, but if things come up or
they feel like he's not being honest with them or whatever,
and then how you handle that.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, I wouldn't be like, well, welcome to my life.
I'd be like, well, you know, that's what I think
that's what. That's what I wouldn't have said, well, welcome
to the seven years of my life.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Good.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
No, I would obviously be like, you know, sometimes it's
maybe hard for people because of their own past. Yes,
you know for sure, when did you actually start writing
better than okay?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:36):
I started writing it last year in twenty twenty two,
the beginning of the year, and then wrapped it up
in July twenty twenty two, so you know, it went
to the publisher then and went through lunch of rounds
of edits, as you know, and came out this July.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And I know a lot can change to you know,
even in a year. So is there something that you
wish you would have added or something that like you
kind of know now that it's not in the book?
Speaker 4 (25:06):
Yeah, I do think there are some places I wish
I might have expanded a little bit more. I think
I think I would have maybe, And maybe it's the
next book, Danna, I don't know, just talk about how
to settle in and really get to know yourself again.
That is definitely identity as a big part of the book.
(25:26):
But I just think so many women struggle with that,
even if it's not divorce, it's you know, they're taking
care of kids, or you know they have jobs, and
their identity is wrapped up in what they do rather
than who they are. Maybe digging into that a little
bit more. I feel like, you know, I've only had
one like serious relationship in the last six and a
(25:47):
half years, and I'm single again. So it's just almost
like navigating a second breakup post divorce. Navigating a breakup
is different than what it was when I know my
divorce happened. So I think just like figuring out and
being solid in who you are and what you want
out of your life and taking steps to move toward that,
(26:10):
I would probably expand on a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
So, I mean, obviously I knew about your relationship because
we we've you know, we we do. We touch base, yes,
and my heart, I was so upset when you when
you said it, you know, you guys broke up. But
I also I'm still so excited for you because I
know that you know your your great love is out
(26:46):
there and you know you've done all this work, and
do you believe that or did you kind of get
to the place where you're like you feel defeated again.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
I think initially I felt defeated again. I think, you know,
it's life is just such a journey of learning, and
I had a lot of sadness in regards to that breakup,
and it took me a little while to accept that
sadness of like, yeah, I'm sad I don't have that
partner that I wanted, and to be honest, I'm ready
for that relationship. I'm ready, you know, to have someone
(27:18):
who I partner with in life and I share life with. So, yeah,
that was definitely hard, and there's a lot of sadness
to dig through. I think I didn't expect to be.
My therapist said to me, when you go through grief,
it's like you're swimming in a pool of all of
your grief rather than just the grief attached to that situation.
(27:39):
So navigating that and finding maybe the parameters of am
I grieving this person? Am I grieving the fact that
I'm single again? And just being able to identify that
was huge. I think one of the approaches I've realized
is I've spent the summer kind of just evaluating and
journaling and processing, is that, you know, there is a
(27:59):
longing in my heart to be connected with someone in
a romantic way again, to be in a permanent relationship.
And I believe the way I'm wired, God created me
to desire connection. He created all of us for connection,
and I'm highly relational, and yeah, I think that's a
long end he placed in my heart. I think it's
(28:20):
something that he wants for me as well. And the
timing I get a little impatient on, but yeah, I
do believe that that will be part of my story,
is having someone that I share life with again. And
I think for me, I want that for me. And
then you know, a benefit of that would be my
kids getting to see a healthy relationship modeled for them.
(28:41):
So I would love for my kids to have that
reality that they get to experience as well.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, because I can imagine it's you know, when the
other partner moves on and starts a family, you know,
it's like it's you got to have almost like whiplash. Yeah,
I mean, I don't know what my ex is thinking,
but I'm like, again, he didn't want to be in
our marriage, so yeah, I don't think they But I
think if I wanted to be in the marriage and
(29:09):
he was.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
I just I think I would my head would just
be spinning.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Yeah, and you know, Jana, I will say this, by
the time I filed for divorce, I did not want
to be in that marriage.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Well, because it's something you said in the book too,
and I just want to go back to that because
I was like, man, that is you know, that's a
big saying. Is you said you've never missed him, but
you just felt lonely. And I'm like, is that like,
not one moment did you miss like even the idea
of it or the like.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Not even having a partner. I think I missed you know,
I've missed it probably the most. In parenting I talk
in the Loneliness chapter of one of the places I
still experienced loneliness is when one of our kids does
something major and I just don't have that person to
look at and say, like, man, he's a really great
kid and I'm so proud of him. I don't have
(30:03):
that shared experience with someone. Now. I have friends who
show up and family members who show up, and my
in laws are still part of my life. I call
them my outlaws. There's still but I just don't, you know,
have that person to be able to say, like, man,
he's a really great kid, and I do still feel
loneliness there, but as far by the time I got
(30:23):
to filing for divorce, so much had been uncovered over
my twenty years of marriage that no, I did not
want that relationship anymore. I think at that point I had,
you know, he had been out of my bedroom for
a year, he'd been out of the house for six months.
I realized in a lot of ways it was easier
(30:45):
with him gone. I function, he traveled a lot with
work anyway, and the kids and I kind of had
our own rhythm. And and when I removed the person
who caused me to walk on neckshelves and always you know,
doubt myself and really, you know, was harmful for my
self confidence. When that person was removed from my home,
(31:06):
I felt so much relief that I was really as
devastated as I was. And I definitely grieved the loss
of the dreams I had for my family unit. And
then I grieved the loss of the dreams that I
have for myself in a marriage with him. But I
didn't miss him right, So I felt like God really
healed my heart quickly in relationship shift to him. I
(31:28):
grieved the loss of being part of the church for
a really long time.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I was wondering how your relationship with God changed
after that. I mean, you know, being married to the
you know, main pastor, and and yeah, it's like, were
you kind of like God would It's you know, did
you not go to church for a while?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Were you angry? Like were you angry at him like.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
That? I totally was. I was angry at him. I
was frustrated. I had watched him, you know, restore a
ton of marriages, just because we were in ministry and
we had a front row seat to watching the way
God worked in people's lives. I had friends whose marriages
have been restored from you know, similar situations. So yeah,
(32:15):
I just really believed that God was going to show
up and heal our marriage and heal both of us.
I think in the process of that, what I realized
is that God wanted to heal me so how and
God wanted to restore me, and redemption was found. It
was found in the way that I chose to live
my life as post divorce. But yeah, I showed up
(32:37):
to God with all of that frustration and anger and
bitterness and like, what are you talking about. I have
spent twenty years serving you. My entire adult life has
been you know, forwarding the mission of your church, and
this is going to be what I get in return,
and asking the white questions and fighting about that this
isn't fair and all of that kind of stuff. I think,
(33:00):
you know, for me, it was really interesting what I
realized was in parenting we talk a lot about attachment
and how attachment then moves into your relationship, whether you
have secure attachment or anxious attachment, avoidant attachment. And I
think walking through that divorce, when my life went from
being surrounded by thousands of people all the time and
(33:20):
it shrunk too. I had three people in my therapist
I talked to on a regular basis. I spent a
lot of time talking to God and yelling at God
and questioning God. And it allowed me to create a
secure attachment in my relationship with God in a way
that I didn't expect because He stayed through all of
the you know, cussing and yelling and crying and screaming
(33:42):
and questioning and anger and continue to show up and
remind me that he loved me and he was going
to take care of me. And that wasn't easy to
you know, have to show up that way, but I
didn't have anyone else that I could yell and scream at.
I felt like I didn't have anyone else I could
(34:02):
yell and scream at because I really kind of isolated
myself out of shame of the situation that was happening.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, it's something you said.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Earlier.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
He had said, like, you know, I never really loved
you anyways, And there was actually a moment in my
book I wrote about that where he said, you know,
I never really loved you, and I kind of know,
I know my take on why I think they say that,
But how did you kind of rest with that knowing
that's not the truth. It's just I look at it
as yeahs like it's he didn't maybe love himself or yep, yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
For a while I was like, we didn't love me,
like that's all a lie.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Well it's hard, but.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
It's heart faults here though. I know a lot of
women have probably heard that. So that's why I'm like,
what is your you know, take on it.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
It's so interesting. I was working with a coaching client
yesterday and she said, I don't understand he rewrote our
entire history, and yeah, that's what ends up happening. And
my is they do it to relieve some of the
guilt that they're feeling with the decisions and the choices
they're making. They're trying to rewrite history. They're trying to
(35:10):
take away some of the pain that they're feeling because
they realize that they're causing other people pain, so they
rewrite that narrative and create their own in order to
justify those choices and decisions that are causing pain. What's
your take on it, Danet, tell me.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
I mean that's yeah, that's one should be your take.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, everyone's take out.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, they don't want to carry that shame and the sadness,
and you know, so they just want to keep on hurting.
And yeah, rewriting. I always looked at it as like
a mirror, Well you don't love yourself. Yeah you're going
to say probably some truth to that, yeah too, so
we can mold But I like.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
That, And they might just be trying to hurt you
in the moment as well.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But I think at the end of the day, though,
like in the you know, the I think this your
son was saying, he goes he was sending you text
messages and you said the text that sit out the
most was one that said, I agree, I wouldn't change
our lives for anything, and that made me get teary
because I'm like, you've done so much for your kids
(36:13):
and this isn't the life that you wanted, but you've
created a safe place for them, and I just think
that's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Thank you. Yeah, that was a super special moment. I
was speaking, and in the course of my message, I
was talking about how this is not the story I
wanted for myself, it's not the story I wanted for
my kids, but at this point, I wouldn't change our
lives for anything. We have created this really great family
(36:41):
unit where nothing is missing, and I was just expounding
on that. And when I went to the Green Gream
after there was a series of texts and it was
really sweet. He was like, oh, I like, you're outfitting.
That joke was funny. The audience laughed. But then he
got to that point where he said I could agree more.
I wouldn't change our lives for anything, and that was
(37:03):
the point that I was like, Okay, we have redefined
family and redefined our family unit to where yeah, there's
nothing missing. The four of us are a complete family,
and we show up for one another and we love
each other really well.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
I love that, Brandy.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I'm just I'm I'm so happy for you, and I'm
you know, I want everyone to go get your book
better than okay, finding hope and healing after your marriage ends.
And then what else are you? So you said you're
coaching people. That's what You've been doing for that for
a long time.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
I've been doing that for a long time. That's my sake.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
So where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Then?
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Love Brandy Wilson dot com Brandy with an I, and
then that's my website and then on Instagram. I love
Brandy Wilson as well. So well, thank you for coming on,
thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
I miss you and let's get together soon please once
once school starts back up.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yah. Yeah, Sarah wants to see you too, Sarah Brice
says Chris. Everybody loves everybody.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
But yeah, let's I'll text you on the side and
we'll we'll figure something that.
Speaker 4 (38:07):
It's great, Tokay, thank you so much for her too
amazing book.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Seriously, it's so good. It's just I feel everything that
you write. It's just honest and it feels to me.
It's like, I know you wrote this. You know it
comes from your voice, which I love.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
So I love that.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
All right, bye Brandy.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Brandy, She's such a beautiful human.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I'm so happy for her. I was I gotta tell
you that. When she sent me the text with her
and now boyfriend broke up, I was like no, because
I just was like they're dated for us, definitely over
a year.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
And like how soon ago did they break up?
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Like a couple of months ago?
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I know, but again it's not like it's all I
was also like, but yay, because you're gonna find and
you know, and she's happy, Like she's happier.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
And she knows what she wants. You know, she knows.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
I know it's not all about relationships, but you know
when someone's like ready and wants that, like that's where
it's right.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yeah, well that's what she was saying. She is ready,
like she is ready for that companion. Maybe she should
go on the No, I don't know what you're going
to say, but probably not.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
I was like thinking like an app or something we
can you know.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
That could be a fun girls nice Iran.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Let's just like let's get her on hinge or something.
Or just start like, oh, you know we should do
because you know I'm met my love on Instagram. We
should just sliden, do I know. I'm like I'm trying
to think. I'm like, what, what person can we hook
her up with?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
But that'll be our homework. We'll think about that anyways.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
See you light up? Are you
Host
Jana Kramer
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