April 27, 2023 • 30 mins
A physical connection is an important part of a romantic relationship, so Jana is doing some dirty talk with sex therapist Vanessa Marin and her husband Xander to find out how to be more open about sex.
They share some incredible tips you can use with your partner tonight to normalize talking about sexuality in your relationship.
And, they share the BIGGEST mistake couples make when trying to broaden their sexual horizons.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
All Right, So today's episode line about it Thursday Therapy.
We have Vanessa and Xander Marin So. Vanessa is a
licensed psychotherapist specializing in sex therapy. She has a bachelor's
degree in Human Sexuality and Sociology from Brown University. She
has written The New York Times, Allure, and Life Hacker,
(00:27):
and has been featured many times in major publications like Oprah.
And then her husband Xander. He's a regular dude who
just left a cushy career in tech once you realized
it was more fun to talk about sex with his
wife all day.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So he's he's also.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Going to be on the show. But you know, you
don't need a graduate degree license to have an extraordinary
communication skills. You just need to be open and have
an open mind. So they're going to talk about their book,
Sex Talks, Five Conversations that will Transform your love life.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Hi, how's your day going so far?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
It's been it's been okay. I had a headstick my
son and for a little surgery on his head, so
have just been up kind of early.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
But could you guys have kids?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
No, we don't, Okay, so you have a lot of
sex bees protection. Clearly, yes, good old iud. Okay, wait,
how long have you guys been married for We've been.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Married for eleven years, together for fifteen.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay, do you guys want kids? On the table? Off
the table, No, we don't want kids.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
No kids.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Is that hard for you when people ask you? Probably
all the time.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
It's not hard for us. I mean, we did a
whole podcast episode about like our journey with that. We
both really thought that we were going to have them,
and so it has been a hard process, like making
the decision not to. But at this point it's like,
I think we feel comfortable with it, that it feels okay,
and we know that it's just a natural question that
everybody asks, like, you know, who are you, what do
(01:56):
you do? Do you have kids? So it never feels
like it's coming from a bad place.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I always you know, I feel bad sometimes too, because
we had someone in our neighborhood, you know, because that
is one of the first questions that you asked someone. Right,
it's like, okay, well you've been married for eleven years.
Then it's like, oh, well do you have kids? Because
you would think, ye, write kids, but what you don't
also know too, is you know? When I had asked
this question to one of my neighbors when they had
moved in, she's like, no, we don't.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I was like, oh, you don't like I, so.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I should I should have stopped, and I usually stopped
saying like, you don't want them, But it's more because
you don't know if those people have struggled trying to
have kids, so it's something they've wanted to do for
so many years, you know, but they can't, or they've
tried IVF or done all those things.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And that I was like, oh, so that's.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Kind of where I you know, reminded myself to be like, Okay,
don't say that because you don't know the journey that
people have gone on to try to have kids. So
did you guys have that journey or was it just
like a no.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
No, Yeah, it wasn't an infertility journey for us. But yeah,
I like phrasing it that way, like do you want them?
Because it makes it clear, like yeah, we get to
talk about like our own desire, and it makes it
feel like it's a choice. It's not an expectation or
an obligation, which I think a lot of people do
feel like it is, so, yeah, it's nice.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
What was the thing like for you guys that you
were just like no, we're like when you got to
the final like, we're good.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So for us, like I said, we both thought that
we were going to like we had conversations before we
got married making sure we were on the same page,
and we got married younger than either one of us
thought that we would get married, So it was sort
of this question of like, yeah, like when we feel ready,
get a couple of years in, then we'll have kids.
At that point, it was like.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
It'll at least be a couple of years, like let's
get married, yeah, wait, a couple of years advance in
our careers, see what happens, and then we'll check in.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
So we were kind of waiting for that period of
like feeling ready and that just wasn't really coming. So
then that started to turn into the question of like, well,
is this something that we actively want? Do we want
to have children? And when we started asking ourselves in
that way, that started to open up this whole world
(04:02):
of possibilities of like, yeah, I mean this is something
we both always just assumed that we would have and
did want to have at other points, but it's feeling
like for some reason and magically for both of us,
because we could have been in real big trouble if
one of us decided right not too and one of
us did. But yeah, we just kept coming back to
that question of do we actually want kids, and the
(04:23):
answer just kept being either murky or no. And we
both really struggled with it because it was just having
to reframe our entire idea of what our lives and
our relationship and our family was going to look like.
And I think that that question kept feeling very central
for us, Like we kept thinking, like, bringing a child
(04:44):
into the world is such a big deal. It's such
an honor and a privilege and a huge responsibility, and
we would want to be able to look at our
child and say like we wanted you, we want to
do so badly, and to be neutral or to be
feeling like, yeah, I don't think that's actually what I want,
(05:05):
Like it just didn't feel right to any potential child
that we could have either, So that question, I think
that was really the main question for us. It's like, yeah,
could we could we tell a child like we wanted
to bring you into the world?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And I think there's other ways too, like if that
ever comes you know, yeah, like when you might get older,
it's like, all right, you might not be able to
have kids, but you could do other things too, if
that kind of it happens, or you could find you know,
there's so many things if that ever like was to
come up, you know, So I think that's yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah, we're very much looking forward to being aunts and uncles.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
We're both of we all love kids, which is the
like the funny irony, like we love being around kids,
and we're we're like, let's have it some little nieces
and nephews, Like we want to have kids in our lives.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
But yeah, yeah, we're both the oldest siblings in our families.
So we're we're patiently waiting.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Now we're I love the wait. Where do you guys live.
We're in Santa Barbara, Oh beautiful. Yeah you're in La right.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Well I used to be in La Oh gosh, I
was there for like fifteen years, but now I live
in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Oh yeah. Oh. We were just there with our whole
team at the end of the year last year. Did
you like it? Loved it? It was super fun.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, it's wild, but it's it's good for it's good
for families, and it's good for like just the different
pace of life and you know, the upbringing. Like I'm
from Michigan originally, so just you know, being able to
have like my kids ride their bikes across the street
in a neighborhood as opposed to you know, in Los Angeles.
I was like, there's a homeless person, watch out or
you know. So it's like, I just this isn't really
(06:39):
where I envisioned like the childhood for my kids, because
I always I loved my child.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
How old are you, guys, I'm thirty nine?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
How to think about Okay for a second, so so yeah,
so I'm thirty nine. So it's one of those things
where I'm like, our like growing up in our generation
was awesome. You know, like we're outside all the time
and we don't have the iPads or the phones and
all that crap. So I'm trying so hard to mimic
the best that I can for my kids. And it's
like it is hard because I'll be like, you know,
it's a nice day. When we get the nice days
(07:10):
before summer, I'm like, go outside, and what are we
gonna do. I'm like, go outside. I don't care what
you do. You can jump on the trampoline, you can
go in the pool, you can go in like the
little playground area.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Like I just go outside, like.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, like grab a piece of chock and write a
real long while. I don't know, like just go outside,
like and it's you know, I used to just beg
to like not come back in, you know, as a kid.
So it's just interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
But let's talk about sex.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So I okay, my last experience with sex therapy was
when I was married, and it was probably the middle
of our marriage when we were trying to work on
like intimacy issues. God, what is that?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So what's that called?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It wasn't.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
It wasn't.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It was a different name for the sex therapy. It
was called like what is that with the tantra? Is
that kind of stuff that you do or no, Like.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
It's no, it's totally different.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Okay, So what is the difference between tantra and sex therapy?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So the interesting thing about sex therapy is that it's
not a regulated term like the way psychotherapy is. So
there are a lot of different forms of sex therapy.
It's still a relatively young field, and there are people
doing it in really different and unique ways. So Tantra
kind of like fits in the general umbrella of like
just working with people to have healthier relationships with sex.
(08:32):
The route that I decided to go is that I
wanted to have like a therapy background, So I got
a master's degree, I got licensed as a psychotherapist, a
marriage and family therapist, and so that's like the foundation.
So when I was seeing people one on one, it
was like the traditional psychotherapy model, like you come in
once a week, we talk about stuff. But I realized
(08:54):
early in my career that I was explaining the same
sorts of things over and over again, and I started thinking, like,
there has to be a more effective way to share
all this information. There's a lot of what I do
is education and also really getting into the nitty gritty
with people of like try this out, do these things
in this order, report back. So I started building out
(09:17):
online courses almost ten years ago and realized that that
was a really great fit. People could access the information
from the comfort and the privacy of their own home,
they could talk it over with their partners. So we've
built up this business together over the last ten years
of selling courses and guides and even challenges for couples.
(09:37):
So what we do is it's very action oriented, like
like we have our foreplay guides as are one of
our biggest sellers. It's like, here's exactly what to do
when there's a penis in front of you. Step by step,
try these things out, and then stuff like challenges where
we send couples like it's a new idea every single
day of something to try together, to bring the spark
(10:00):
or to feel more connected with each other. So what
we do is like really practical and very very fun.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yeah, I think a lot of people can kind of
get in their heads when they hear sex therapy because yeah,
you immediately jump to those like more extreme ends of
like oh well, like if we need to go to
sex therapy, then it's like we have to learn tantra
or BDSM or you know, something that feels a little
further out of your comfort zone. And I think, you know,
(10:26):
the reality is is that like there's actually a huge
opportunity to just talk about like what is the day
to day kind of sex that we're actually having and
what are you know, how can we kind of unwind
some of the maybe unhealthy dynamics that that we've fallen
into or whatever it is. It's it's not like, oh, well,
the sex we're having is boring and we have to
(10:48):
do like we have to ten exit. It's like, no,
let's just talk about the regular everyday stuff and how
to make that feel more fun and more connecting.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, that mars about what your experience was like.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Then well, well, so with the Tantra thing, you know,
my act says and he was vocal about this when
he was on the podcast, but you know, he had
like an intimacy right kind of disorder along with some
other stuff, and so you know, our couples therapist had
recommended it. And for me, like I am a very
sexual person. I like sex, it's fun for me. But
(11:19):
the idea of Tantra, I was like, why do I
need someone else to like try to help my husband
like touch me or be intimately like And so I
walked in like he was way more willing than I was,
and I was just I kind of walked in and
I was so uncomfortable for some reason, like it was
just another person, like because I think I always equated
like love and sex, and so I think they were
(11:40):
teaching is like touch can still be intimacy without sex,
and I, like always I had a tough time kind
of like understanding that. I get that now that intimacy
is more than just sex. But so it was. We
had one session we were supposed to do like four,
but we had just did the one and we were done.
But yeah, it was it was. I didn't I didn't
(12:01):
love it. And I have no problem talking about sex,
which is weird, but I think you know that she
was like like hump, and I'm like, this is so awkward,
Like what are we doing here?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Like I don't want you to like try hump me,
like in an office with like a lady, Like this
is so weird.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
To get me out of here. You know. I have
respect for like people working in whatever way they want
to work more and different things work for different people.
There are a lot of people who would like love
that for me personally, Yeah, the idea of like having
people do things in front of me, I knew people
were going to be so uncomfortable and it didn't feel
like the authentic way that I wanted to work. So
(12:39):
I love being able to create like guides and courses
that are so practical and give people so many fun
things to try out, but on their own, it doesn't
need to be in front.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
How did you pick like sex as the category? Was
it like when you were working with people like that
was the main issue that kept coming up? Or like
what was that kind of discovery for you?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Oh, go back, it goes back.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I wanted to be a sex therapist basically my entire life.
It really traces back to my parents' very awkward attempt
at giving me the talk. So be aware if you're,
you know, getting close to.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Needing to give the talk to your kids, now turn
it seven and four lots of time.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
So my parents were really awkward about it. It wasn't
really a talk, and it just left me feeling embarrassed
and ashamed and very confused. So I didn't have any
idea that sex therapy existed as a career back then,
But that moment stuck with me and I kept coming
back to this idea of like, why can't we talk
(13:50):
about sex? I am curious, I have a lot of questions.
I'm hearing things on the playground that I want to
check out with my parents. So once I got a
little bit older. You know, that question had just lingered
with me for so long. I thought, you know what,
I think I want to do this, like for my life.
I think this is my life purpose to help people
get more comfortable talking about this very normal, very human subject.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And on the flip side, I had no idea I
ever wanted to or was going to.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Do anything like that chricked into it.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, I got hoodwinked, but no. I mean like when
Vanessa and I met, she was in training to become
a sex theary and you.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Must have been like, hell yeah sex there.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yes. I was like I was like, oh, this is cool,
Like this is going to be great to tell my
friends about, Like they're going to think really highly of me, right.
But the funny thing is, you know, kind of underlying
all that was like I was also a little intimidated
and scared because I was like, I don't want to
talk about our own sex life. That feels really awkward
and potentially embarrassing. So you know, we kind of skirted
(14:54):
around the edges for a while, you know, talking about like, oh,
the types of issues that she's working with with other
people people and all that stuff, and kind of like
you know, burying my head in the sand about you know,
what was going on with us, and you know, eventually
we ended up, you know, starting to have our own
issues when it came to intimacy and sex drive and
(15:14):
all that stuff. And eventually I came to realize like, oh, like,
actually we can talk about this, Like we are allowed
to talk about this, We're allowed to get help, we're
allowed to improve and work on it. And so I
got a lot more comfortable with things, and I started
running the back end of Vanessa's business as it started
to grow. You know, I left a career in tech,
(15:34):
and eventually she convinced me to get in front of
the camera because she's like, oh, people want to hear
you know, from you Like, as you know a husband.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
There's something great about the guy's perspective always, which is
what I always loved, you know, and with you know,
with my ax is like to have two different perspectives
like that can it's helping two different people at the
same time, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Absolutely, yeah, I think that that. So yeah, now we
both are kind of in front of the camera. We
wrote our books Sex Talks together, and we get so
much positive feedback about that. People say, like it's so
great to hear you guys talking about it as a
real couple and acknowledging like, Yeah, even though I'm a
sex therapist and I think a lot of people would
assume we just have the perfect sex life, It's like
(16:14):
we don't. We you know, we get vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Okay, So what is then, what's the issue like in
the in the ups and downs of like in the
downs of y'all sex, Like, what are some of the
issues that come up? And not only yours, but others
that you see too.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
So what happened to us is I think what happens
to ninety eight percent of couples once you kind of
hit that long term aspect of the relationship. Like, we
started off so hot and heavy. The chemistry was just unbelievable.
We were so excited about each other. We felt like
we were this incredible fit. And then we get a
(16:48):
couple of years into the relationship, you're you know, we're
more comfortable with each other, we live with each other,
and we just noticed things start to slow down.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Life catches up.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
With Yeah, you know, we weren't how having as much sex.
The sex that we were having wasn't feeling very exciting.
It was really predictable, and it brought up fears for
both of us of like what happened to us? We
had this unreal connection at the beginning, like where did
those people go? Where did that chemistry go? And so
I think most people have experienced that and experienced the
(17:20):
fear that comes along with it, and a lot of
people even break up at that stage just feeling like
maybe this means we're not a good fit. But that
was when we started navigating, like hey, maybe instead of
just freaking out or burying our heads in the sand,
like maybe let's try to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And so like what are those conversations like like what
do you like? How how would you help a couple
like what do you write about in your book to
have those kind of conversations like where do you even start?
Because I feel like the other person might become defensive
if they're not thinking the same thing too, right, Like
if my boyfriend was to be like, hey, our sex
is getting boring, I'd be like wait what like oh,
you know, like we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, I mean. And that is the mistake that most
people make, is they get to that point where it
feels like something is wrong and then one or both
partners comes in hot like, hey, why aren't you doing this?
Why isn't why isn't this happening? And yeah, exactly like
you said, that immediately brings up defensiveness rather than like
any kind of curiosity, right.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
So yeah, so we wrote sex Talks because the idea
of talking about sex is nothing new, Like when you're
up late at night googling all your secret sex questions
in the dark and incognitum.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Book, Yeah, why doesn't the initiate sex with me anymore?
Speaker 1 (18:34):
It's like that's at the end of every article, right, like,
just talk about it with your partner.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And then your course is linked.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Perfect.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I wish we're still working on that part.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
So you know, we know that we should be talking
about sex, but the articles always end there and we're
left with this feeling of like, but how what do
I say? When do I say it? How do I
not hurt my partner's feelings or you know, bruise their
ego make them upset? So, like I was saying earlier,
like we love being super practical and very nitty gritty,
so we're like, we want to write a book that
(19:06):
teaches you exactly how to have these kinds of conversations.
So we boiled this enormous topic down into the five
conversations that we think every couple should have and that
would be really beneficial. And then we walk you through
exactly like talk about this, and then say this, and
then take this a little quiz and talk about your
answers with each other. So it's a really interactive book.
(19:29):
But I'll say, like, the first conversation that we start
with is acknowledgment. So Xander was just talking about the
mistake most of us make is waiting until things are bad,
and then that just y, it feels scarier and.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Spoiler alert, it is not acknowledgment of the problem.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yes, So instead, like we have, couples take a very
different approach, and we want you to get comfortable talking
about sex, just in a general sense, just getting comfortable
with the topic of it. So we're not getting into
the problems, we're not making requests. It's just like, hey,
we're both humans who have been raised with all sorts
of sexual baggage and crap. We're both embarrassed and and
(20:05):
you know, nervous to talk about this, so let's just
get comfortable with the topic.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, like sas sex is a thing the two of
us have it, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So one of the very practical exercises from that conversation
that anybody could do, like after they listened to this podcast,
is take a moment to think about one of your
favorite sexual memories with your partner and then share it
with them.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Like remember that time when we first met, like we
blah blah blah blah. Yeah, okay, yeah, Oh I love that.
That's so good because it gets them excited too.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah exactly. So you can say like, oh, I was
listening to a podcast and this like crazy sex therapist
said to tell you this, or you can just say
like it popped into my mind randomly, like you know,
it just popped into my mind, or even you had
a dream about it. No one I had a dream
about last night. But you're just sharing the memory, no requests,
no complaints tied to it. It's just like, yeah, remember
(20:59):
that time?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah and yeah. I mean what that starts to do
is that starts to lay the foundation of Oh, sex
is a safe topic. It's a topic that we can
come back to, we can talk about. It makes us
feel good, it makes us feel connected, and it's not
a topic where once it gets brought up, it immediately
goes to a fight. Because that's the experience that so
(21:20):
many people have, is like, you do it, but you
don't talk about it. You don't talk, you don't talk,
you don't talk, things start to get weird, and then
all of a sudden, you talk and it's a defensive
argument and whatnot. And even if that hasn't happened in
your current relationship, it's likely that it's happened in one
or both of your prior relationships. Maybe it's even ended
a relationship. So that's why so many people are just
(21:42):
so hesitant and scared to talk about it, because it's
like we've had that experience of it being awkward. Even
if that hasn't happened, you probably have the experience of
it being awkward when your parents brought it up with
you for the first time. So we're just like primed
to be like, this is awkward. I want to do it,
but I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
I'm curious where you're where your ays of stances on
bringing outside things in like porn.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, porn is such a tricky topic. So the basic
reality of like watching other people have sex that is
sexy that is stimulating, Like there's nothing wrong with that.
It makes sense to be turned on by it.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
We see that in movies and TV shows all the time.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, any time.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I like.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
But when I think about it, though, I'm like, like,
I never really had an issue with porn, but now
you know things that happened in my past marriage and
then so there's relationship now I'm kind of like, to me,
I'm like, I just want sex be more intimate like
us and like not bring because I feel like when
you allow, whether it's another person or porn or things like,
(22:57):
it starts to like maybe a numb what y'all have
as opposed to because then it's I feel like once
someone has something like all right, well that was a night,
let's let's try this, and then it's like you're never
gonna be satisfied.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Then if if it's just it's more than can definitely. Yeah,
for some couples, it can feel like a very exciting
thing to like watch together and you get turned on.
For other couples, it can definitely feel like it gets
in the way of your human to human intimacy. And
I think one of the things that we need to
be cautious about when it comes to porn is recognizing
that porn sex is not real sex, right, It's not
(23:33):
what sex actually looks like. It should not be said
as like the gold standard, so.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Now it looks ten years married in and everything else.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, porn is meant to be entertainment.
So I heard somebody ages ago say like, looking at
porn and trying to figure out how to have sex
based on porn is like watching The Fast and Furious
and thinking that's how you learn to drive. Like, It's
just it's totally different things. So we don't want people
feeling like they need to live up to that. So yeah,
(24:02):
it just gets very complicated, and it's really dependent on
the couple.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
For the couples that have kind of lost hope in
their sex life, like, is there something in your book
too that gives them well A, I mean a lot
of people struggle with sex and their marriage and relationships,
But is there something too that they can like like, Okay,
you know I'm not alone in this, and this is
this is going to help like tangibility with it in
(24:27):
a way.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Absolutely. So one important piece is that we lead with
a lot of vulnerability. You know, we do share stories
of our ups and downs to really try to help
normalize this and help people realize like pretty much every
couple is going to struggle with their sex life in
one way or another at one time or another, like
it's normal and it's okay. And then more practically, the
(24:50):
second conversation in Sex Talks is called connection, like what
do we need to feel close to each other? And
I think a lot of people are surprised to see
that chapter. They're like, I thought this was a book
about sex, but really like sex and emotional intimacy, Like
they're so deeply entwined in a long term relationship. And
for a lot of people, if your sex life is suffering,
(25:13):
there are probably also issues with your emotional intimacy as well,
the connection that the two of you feel. So there
are a lot of amazing exercises and conversations within that
chapter about figuring out, like what do we need to
feel close to each other again? To feel like important
to each other again? So to make that even more
practical and give like another specific thing that somebody could do.
(25:35):
One of the exercises in that chapter is to practice
sharing gratitude for each other. I know a lot of
people kind of like yeah, yeah, I know, gratitude journal whatever,
but gratitude was actually found, like there was one study
that found gratitude was the number one predictor of marital satisfaction.
Number one gratitude. So the interesting thing about gratitude is
(25:58):
it's really easy to do too, Like if you take free,
free seconds, it's free, it's easy, it doesn't take very
much time, and you'll be shocked to see what a
huge different difference it makes if you try to take
some time throughout your day to just call out the
things that you see your partner doing, Like, hey, I
saw that you unloaded the dishwasher. I really appreciate that.
(26:20):
I saw that you took the dogs out. That was
really nice of you. I saw that you you know whatever.
It is, like it's so easy, but it has a
really big impact.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Yeah, I mean, we fall into this trap, I think,
especially in the long term, of looking at those things
as like, oh, well, that's their job and this is
you know, these things are my job and those things
are their job, so like why why would I be
thinking them for that? And it turns it into this
sort of transactional thing like you do your stuff, I
do my stuff. That's how we make everything work. But
(26:50):
you know, a relationship, a marriage, like your sex life,
it's not a transactional thing. And so I think if
you start, if it starts feeling like everything in your
relationlationship is purely transactional, that it's a job. Like that,
we start to lose touch with like you know, what,
what is the relationship all about? Like why did we
(27:10):
get into this relationship in the first place. Like there's
there's more to it than the transactional. There's so much
connection and fun and playfulness.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I think that's great. And honestly, I mean, you know,
I my sex is great, Like I'm not like I'm
not in a like a very it's it's very I'm
in the very fun stage right with the new boyfriend.
So but I feel like this book is for people
that you know at all stages because it just opens communication.
So whether you're it's great or struggling, like there are
ups and downs no matter what. So just to have
(27:40):
this book as just like an open communication I think
is great for what wherever you are at in your
sex journey.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Right, Yeah, yeah, we really wanted, like Sanda was saying earlier,
like a lot of people have the idea we only
go to sex therapy or we only work on our
sex life if it's bad. But we really want to
spread this message that every couple, no matter how great
your sex life is or how you know, how tough
it is right now, like every couple can benefit from
having these conversations. And the really cool thing about sex
(28:09):
is there's always something new to learn, there's always something
new to explore. And it doesn't mean that what you're
doing now isn't good enough. It's just like there's a
whole world of possibilities. Why wouldn't we try exploring it
with each other.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, the reality is that you know, over the course
of a relationship, like things change, like each of our
you know, I feel like, okay, right now, our sex
drives are super in sync where it's it's super easy
and effortless, but you know, everything goes up and down
their cycles to everything, and you know, like it's it
felt like total the effortless for us at the beginning,
(28:43):
and then you know, things started changing and you know,
you know, there we've been through periods of mismatched, periods
of being in more sync, and so yeah, to the
extent that you can start getting comfortable with all this stuff.
When it's good, it's going to make it so much
easier as soon as you know, I'm not trying to
say that when things get bad, like just as soon
as things just start to shift, it's so much easier
(29:06):
to just acknowledge it and to be aware of it
and to talk about it openly, like Okay, huh this
is going on, Like huh, what can we do as
a team to address this or to you know, try
to make this a little easier rather than the kind
of like, oh hm, seeming like this isn't working as well,
and you know, oh, let's let's just see what happens, right,
(29:27):
And I hope it gets better and you know, without
acknowledging it.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Sure well. I love that you guys are doing this,
especially as a you know, husband and wife team. I
think that's great. Again, Like it's it's helping both sides
and understanding the husband's point of view from the wife's
view and vice versa. So I think that's great. So
everyone get their book Sex Talks The Five Conversations that
Will Transform Your Love Life and listen to their podcast,
Pillow Talks, Oh with Xander and Vanessa, I love it.
(29:52):
Thank you guys so much for coming on mine.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Den, thank you for having a chatting with you. Yeah,
you too,
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
All Right, So today's episode line about it Thursday Therapy.
We have Vanessa and Xander Marin So. Vanessa is a
licensed psychotherapist specializing in sex therapy. She has a bachelor's
degree in Human Sexuality and Sociology from Brown University. She
has written The New York Times, Allure, and Life Hacker,
(00:27):
and has been featured many times in major publications like Oprah.
And then her husband Xander. He's a regular dude who
just left a cushy career in tech once you realized
it was more fun to talk about sex with his
wife all day.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So he's he's also.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Going to be on the show. But you know, you
don't need a graduate degree license to have an extraordinary
communication skills. You just need to be open and have
an open mind. So they're going to talk about their book,
Sex Talks, Five Conversations that will Transform your love life.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Hi, how's your day going so far?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
It's been it's been okay. I had a headstick my
son and for a little surgery on his head, so
have just been up kind of early.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
But could you guys have kids?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
No, we don't, Okay, so you have a lot of
sex bees protection. Clearly, yes, good old iud. Okay, wait,
how long have you guys been married for We've been.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Married for eleven years, together for fifteen.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay, do you guys want kids? On the table? Off
the table, No, we don't want kids.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
No kids.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Is that hard for you when people ask you? Probably
all the time.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
It's not hard for us. I mean, we did a
whole podcast episode about like our journey with that. We
both really thought that we were going to have them,
and so it has been a hard process, like making
the decision not to. But at this point it's like,
I think we feel comfortable with it, that it feels okay,
and we know that it's just a natural question that
everybody asks, like, you know, who are you, what do
(01:56):
you do? Do you have kids? So it never feels
like it's coming from a bad place.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I always you know, I feel bad sometimes too, because
we had someone in our neighborhood, you know, because that
is one of the first questions that you asked someone. Right,
it's like, okay, well you've been married for eleven years.
Then it's like, oh, well do you have kids? Because
you would think, ye, write kids, but what you don't
also know too, is you know? When I had asked
this question to one of my neighbors when they had
moved in, she's like, no, we don't.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I was like, oh, you don't like I, so.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I should I should have stopped, and I usually stopped
saying like, you don't want them, But it's more because
you don't know if those people have struggled trying to
have kids, so it's something they've wanted to do for
so many years, you know, but they can't, or they've
tried IVF or done all those things.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And that I was like, oh, so that's.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Kind of where I you know, reminded myself to be like, Okay,
don't say that because you don't know the journey that
people have gone on to try to have kids. So
did you guys have that journey or was it just
like a no.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
No, Yeah, it wasn't an infertility journey for us. But yeah,
I like phrasing it that way, like do you want them?
Because it makes it clear, like yeah, we get to
talk about like our own desire, and it makes it
feel like it's a choice. It's not an expectation or
an obligation, which I think a lot of people do
feel like it is, so, yeah, it's nice.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
What was the thing like for you guys that you
were just like no, we're like when you got to
the final like, we're good.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So for us, like I said, we both thought that
we were going to like we had conversations before we
got married making sure we were on the same page,
and we got married younger than either one of us
thought that we would get married, So it was sort
of this question of like, yeah, like when we feel ready,
get a couple of years in, then we'll have kids.
At that point, it was like.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
It'll at least be a couple of years, like let's
get married, yeah, wait, a couple of years advance in
our careers, see what happens, and then we'll check in.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
So we were kind of waiting for that period of
like feeling ready and that just wasn't really coming. So
then that started to turn into the question of like, well,
is this something that we actively want? Do we want
to have children? And when we started asking ourselves in
that way, that started to open up this whole world
(04:02):
of possibilities of like, yeah, I mean this is something
we both always just assumed that we would have and
did want to have at other points, but it's feeling
like for some reason and magically for both of us,
because we could have been in real big trouble if
one of us decided right not too and one of
us did. But yeah, we just kept coming back to
that question of do we actually want kids, and the
(04:23):
answer just kept being either murky or no. And we
both really struggled with it because it was just having
to reframe our entire idea of what our lives and
our relationship and our family was going to look like.
And I think that that question kept feeling very central
for us, Like we kept thinking, like, bringing a child
(04:44):
into the world is such a big deal. It's such
an honor and a privilege and a huge responsibility, and
we would want to be able to look at our
child and say like we wanted you, we want to
do so badly, and to be neutral or to be
feeling like, yeah, I don't think that's actually what I want,
(05:05):
Like it just didn't feel right to any potential child
that we could have either, So that question, I think
that was really the main question for us. It's like, yeah,
could we could we tell a child like we wanted
to bring you into the world?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And I think there's other ways too, like if that
ever comes you know, yeah, like when you might get older,
it's like, all right, you might not be able to
have kids, but you could do other things too, if
that kind of it happens, or you could find you know,
there's so many things if that ever like was to
come up, you know, So I think that's yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah, we're very much looking forward to being aunts and uncles.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
We're both of we all love kids, which is the
like the funny irony, like we love being around kids,
and we're we're like, let's have it some little nieces
and nephews, Like we want to have kids in our lives.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
But yeah, yeah, we're both the oldest siblings in our families.
So we're we're patiently waiting.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Now we're I love the wait. Where do you guys live.
We're in Santa Barbara, Oh beautiful. Yeah you're in La right.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Well I used to be in La Oh gosh, I
was there for like fifteen years, but now I live
in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Oh yeah. Oh. We were just there with our whole
team at the end of the year last year. Did
you like it? Loved it? It was super fun.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, it's wild, but it's it's good for it's good
for families, and it's good for like just the different
pace of life and you know, the upbringing. Like I'm
from Michigan originally, so just you know, being able to
have like my kids ride their bikes across the street
in a neighborhood as opposed to you know, in Los Angeles.
I was like, there's a homeless person, watch out or
you know. So it's like, I just this isn't really
(06:39):
where I envisioned like the childhood for my kids, because
I always I loved my child.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
How old are you, guys, I'm thirty nine?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
How to think about Okay for a second, so so yeah,
so I'm thirty nine. So it's one of those things
where I'm like, our like growing up in our generation
was awesome. You know, like we're outside all the time
and we don't have the iPads or the phones and
all that crap. So I'm trying so hard to mimic
the best that I can for my kids. And it's
like it is hard because I'll be like, you know,
it's a nice day. When we get the nice days
(07:10):
before summer, I'm like, go outside, and what are we
gonna do. I'm like, go outside. I don't care what
you do. You can jump on the trampoline, you can
go in the pool, you can go in like the
little playground area.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Like I just go outside, like.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, like grab a piece of chock and write a
real long while. I don't know, like just go outside,
like and it's you know, I used to just beg
to like not come back in, you know, as a kid.
So it's just interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
But let's talk about sex.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So I okay, my last experience with sex therapy was
when I was married, and it was probably the middle
of our marriage when we were trying to work on
like intimacy issues. God, what is that?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So what's that called?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It wasn't.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
It wasn't.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It was a different name for the sex therapy. It
was called like what is that with the tantra? Is
that kind of stuff that you do or no, Like.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
It's no, it's totally different.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Okay, So what is the difference between tantra and sex therapy?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So the interesting thing about sex therapy is that it's
not a regulated term like the way psychotherapy is. So
there are a lot of different forms of sex therapy.
It's still a relatively young field, and there are people
doing it in really different and unique ways. So Tantra
kind of like fits in the general umbrella of like
just working with people to have healthier relationships with sex.
(08:32):
The route that I decided to go is that I
wanted to have like a therapy background, So I got
a master's degree, I got licensed as a psychotherapist, a
marriage and family therapist, and so that's like the foundation.
So when I was seeing people one on one, it
was like the traditional psychotherapy model, like you come in
once a week, we talk about stuff. But I realized
(08:54):
early in my career that I was explaining the same
sorts of things over and over again, and I started thinking, like,
there has to be a more effective way to share
all this information. There's a lot of what I do
is education and also really getting into the nitty gritty
with people of like try this out, do these things
in this order, report back. So I started building out
(09:17):
online courses almost ten years ago and realized that that
was a really great fit. People could access the information
from the comfort and the privacy of their own home,
they could talk it over with their partners. So we've
built up this business together over the last ten years
of selling courses and guides and even challenges for couples.
(09:37):
So what we do is it's very action oriented, like
like we have our foreplay guides as are one of
our biggest sellers. It's like, here's exactly what to do
when there's a penis in front of you. Step by step,
try these things out, and then stuff like challenges where
we send couples like it's a new idea every single
day of something to try together, to bring the spark
(10:00):
or to feel more connected with each other. So what
we do is like really practical and very very fun.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yeah, I think a lot of people can kind of
get in their heads when they hear sex therapy because yeah,
you immediately jump to those like more extreme ends of
like oh well, like if we need to go to
sex therapy, then it's like we have to learn tantra
or BDSM or you know, something that feels a little
further out of your comfort zone. And I think, you know,
(10:26):
the reality is is that like there's actually a huge
opportunity to just talk about like what is the day
to day kind of sex that we're actually having and
what are you know, how can we kind of unwind
some of the maybe unhealthy dynamics that that we've fallen
into or whatever it is. It's it's not like, oh, well,
the sex we're having is boring and we have to
(10:48):
do like we have to ten exit. It's like, no,
let's just talk about the regular everyday stuff and how
to make that feel more fun and more connecting.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, that mars about what your experience was like.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Then well, well, so with the Tantra thing, you know,
my act says and he was vocal about this when
he was on the podcast, but you know, he had
like an intimacy right kind of disorder along with some
other stuff, and so you know, our couples therapist had
recommended it. And for me, like I am a very
sexual person. I like sex, it's fun for me. But
(11:19):
the idea of Tantra, I was like, why do I
need someone else to like try to help my husband
like touch me or be intimately like And so I
walked in like he was way more willing than I was,
and I was just I kind of walked in and
I was so uncomfortable for some reason, like it was
just another person, like because I think I always equated
like love and sex, and so I think they were
(11:40):
teaching is like touch can still be intimacy without sex,
and I, like always I had a tough time kind
of like understanding that. I get that now that intimacy
is more than just sex. But so it was. We
had one session we were supposed to do like four,
but we had just did the one and we were done.
But yeah, it was it was. I didn't I didn't
(12:01):
love it. And I have no problem talking about sex,
which is weird, but I think you know that she
was like like hump, and I'm like, this is so awkward,
Like what are we doing here?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Like I don't want you to like try hump me,
like in an office with like a lady, Like this
is so weird.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
To get me out of here. You know. I have
respect for like people working in whatever way they want
to work more and different things work for different people.
There are a lot of people who would like love
that for me personally, Yeah, the idea of like having
people do things in front of me, I knew people
were going to be so uncomfortable and it didn't feel
like the authentic way that I wanted to work. So
(12:39):
I love being able to create like guides and courses
that are so practical and give people so many fun
things to try out, but on their own, it doesn't
need to be in front.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
How did you pick like sex as the category? Was
it like when you were working with people like that
was the main issue that kept coming up? Or like
what was that kind of discovery for you?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Oh, go back, it goes back.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I wanted to be a sex therapist basically my entire life.
It really traces back to my parents' very awkward attempt
at giving me the talk. So be aware if you're,
you know, getting close to.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Needing to give the talk to your kids, now turn
it seven and four lots of time.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
So my parents were really awkward about it. It wasn't
really a talk, and it just left me feeling embarrassed
and ashamed and very confused. So I didn't have any
idea that sex therapy existed as a career back then,
But that moment stuck with me and I kept coming
back to this idea of like, why can't we talk
(13:50):
about sex? I am curious, I have a lot of questions.
I'm hearing things on the playground that I want to
check out with my parents. So once I got a
little bit older. You know, that question had just lingered
with me for so long. I thought, you know what,
I think I want to do this, like for my life.
I think this is my life purpose to help people
get more comfortable talking about this very normal, very human subject.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And on the flip side, I had no idea I
ever wanted to or was going to.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Do anything like that chricked into it.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, I got hoodwinked, but no. I mean like when
Vanessa and I met, she was in training to become
a sex theary and you.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Must have been like, hell yeah sex there.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yes. I was like I was like, oh, this is cool,
Like this is going to be great to tell my
friends about, Like they're going to think really highly of me, right.
But the funny thing is, you know, kind of underlying
all that was like I was also a little intimidated
and scared because I was like, I don't want to
talk about our own sex life. That feels really awkward
and potentially embarrassing. So you know, we kind of skirted
(14:54):
around the edges for a while, you know, talking about like, oh,
the types of issues that she's working with with other
people people and all that stuff, and kind of like
you know, burying my head in the sand about you know,
what was going on with us, and you know, eventually
we ended up, you know, starting to have our own
issues when it came to intimacy and sex drive and
(15:14):
all that stuff. And eventually I came to realize like, oh, like,
actually we can talk about this, Like we are allowed
to talk about this, We're allowed to get help, we're
allowed to improve and work on it. And so I
got a lot more comfortable with things, and I started
running the back end of Vanessa's business as it started
to grow. You know, I left a career in tech,
(15:34):
and eventually she convinced me to get in front of
the camera because she's like, oh, people want to hear
you know, from you Like, as you know a husband.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
There's something great about the guy's perspective always, which is
what I always loved, you know, and with you know,
with my ax is like to have two different perspectives
like that can it's helping two different people at the
same time, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Absolutely, yeah, I think that that. So yeah, now we
both are kind of in front of the camera. We
wrote our books Sex Talks together, and we get so
much positive feedback about that. People say, like it's so
great to hear you guys talking about it as a
real couple and acknowledging like, Yeah, even though I'm a
sex therapist and I think a lot of people would
assume we just have the perfect sex life, It's like
(16:14):
we don't. We you know, we get vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Okay, So what is then, what's the issue like in
the in the ups and downs of like in the
downs of y'all sex, Like, what are some of the
issues that come up? And not only yours, but others
that you see too.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
So what happened to us is I think what happens
to ninety eight percent of couples once you kind of
hit that long term aspect of the relationship. Like, we
started off so hot and heavy. The chemistry was just unbelievable.
We were so excited about each other. We felt like
we were this incredible fit. And then we get a
(16:48):
couple of years into the relationship, you're you know, we're
more comfortable with each other, we live with each other,
and we just noticed things start to slow down.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Life catches up.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
With Yeah, you know, we weren't how having as much sex.
The sex that we were having wasn't feeling very exciting.
It was really predictable, and it brought up fears for
both of us of like what happened to us? We
had this unreal connection at the beginning, like where did
those people go? Where did that chemistry go? And so
I think most people have experienced that and experienced the
(17:20):
fear that comes along with it, and a lot of
people even break up at that stage just feeling like
maybe this means we're not a good fit. But that
was when we started navigating, like hey, maybe instead of
just freaking out or burying our heads in the sand,
like maybe let's try to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And so like what are those conversations like like what
do you like? How how would you help a couple
like what do you write about in your book to
have those kind of conversations like where do you even start?
Because I feel like the other person might become defensive
if they're not thinking the same thing too, right, Like
if my boyfriend was to be like, hey, our sex
is getting boring, I'd be like wait what like oh,
you know, like we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, I mean. And that is the mistake that most
people make, is they get to that point where it
feels like something is wrong and then one or both
partners comes in hot like, hey, why aren't you doing this?
Why isn't why isn't this happening? And yeah, exactly like
you said, that immediately brings up defensiveness rather than like
any kind of curiosity, right.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
So yeah, so we wrote sex Talks because the idea
of talking about sex is nothing new, Like when you're
up late at night googling all your secret sex questions
in the dark and incognitum.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Book, Yeah, why doesn't the initiate sex with me anymore?
Speaker 1 (18:34):
It's like that's at the end of every article, right, like,
just talk about it with your partner.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And then your course is linked.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Perfect.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I wish we're still working on that part.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
So you know, we know that we should be talking
about sex, but the articles always end there and we're
left with this feeling of like, but how what do
I say? When do I say it? How do I
not hurt my partner's feelings or you know, bruise their
ego make them upset? So, like I was saying earlier,
like we love being super practical and very nitty gritty,
so we're like, we want to write a book that
(19:06):
teaches you exactly how to have these kinds of conversations.
So we boiled this enormous topic down into the five
conversations that we think every couple should have and that
would be really beneficial. And then we walk you through
exactly like talk about this, and then say this, and
then take this a little quiz and talk about your
answers with each other. So it's a really interactive book.
(19:29):
But I'll say, like, the first conversation that we start
with is acknowledgment. So Xander was just talking about the
mistake most of us make is waiting until things are bad,
and then that just y, it feels scarier and.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Spoiler alert, it is not acknowledgment of the problem.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yes, So instead, like we have, couples take a very
different approach, and we want you to get comfortable talking
about sex, just in a general sense, just getting comfortable
with the topic of it. So we're not getting into
the problems, we're not making requests. It's just like, hey,
we're both humans who have been raised with all sorts
of sexual baggage and crap. We're both embarrassed and and
(20:05):
you know, nervous to talk about this, so let's just
get comfortable with the topic.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, like sas sex is a thing the two of
us have it, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So one of the very practical exercises from that conversation
that anybody could do, like after they listened to this podcast,
is take a moment to think about one of your
favorite sexual memories with your partner and then share it
with them.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Like remember that time when we first met, like we
blah blah blah blah. Yeah, okay, yeah, Oh I love that.
That's so good because it gets them excited too.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah exactly. So you can say like, oh, I was
listening to a podcast and this like crazy sex therapist
said to tell you this, or you can just say
like it popped into my mind randomly, like you know,
it just popped into my mind, or even you had
a dream about it. No one I had a dream
about last night. But you're just sharing the memory, no requests,
no complaints tied to it. It's just like, yeah, remember
(20:59):
that time?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah and yeah. I mean what that starts to do
is that starts to lay the foundation of Oh, sex
is a safe topic. It's a topic that we can
come back to, we can talk about. It makes us
feel good, it makes us feel connected, and it's not
a topic where once it gets brought up, it immediately
goes to a fight. Because that's the experience that so
(21:20):
many people have, is like, you do it, but you
don't talk about it. You don't talk, you don't talk,
you don't talk, things start to get weird, and then
all of a sudden, you talk and it's a defensive
argument and whatnot. And even if that hasn't happened in
your current relationship, it's likely that it's happened in one
or both of your prior relationships. Maybe it's even ended
a relationship. So that's why so many people are just
(21:42):
so hesitant and scared to talk about it, because it's
like we've had that experience of it being awkward. Even
if that hasn't happened, you probably have the experience of
it being awkward when your parents brought it up with
you for the first time. So we're just like primed
to be like, this is awkward. I want to do it,
but I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
I'm curious where you're where your ays of stances on
bringing outside things in like porn.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, porn is such a tricky topic. So the basic
reality of like watching other people have sex that is
sexy that is stimulating, Like there's nothing wrong with that.
It makes sense to be turned on by it.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
We see that in movies and TV shows all the time.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, any time.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I like.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
But when I think about it, though, I'm like, like,
I never really had an issue with porn, but now
you know things that happened in my past marriage and
then so there's relationship now I'm kind of like, to me,
I'm like, I just want sex be more intimate like
us and like not bring because I feel like when
you allow, whether it's another person or porn or things like,
(22:57):
it starts to like maybe a numb what y'all have
as opposed to because then it's I feel like once
someone has something like all right, well that was a night,
let's let's try this, and then it's like you're never
gonna be satisfied.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Then if if it's just it's more than can definitely. Yeah,
for some couples, it can feel like a very exciting
thing to like watch together and you get turned on.
For other couples, it can definitely feel like it gets
in the way of your human to human intimacy. And
I think one of the things that we need to
be cautious about when it comes to porn is recognizing
that porn sex is not real sex, right, It's not
(23:33):
what sex actually looks like. It should not be said
as like the gold standard, so.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Now it looks ten years married in and everything else.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, porn is meant to be entertainment.
So I heard somebody ages ago say like, looking at
porn and trying to figure out how to have sex
based on porn is like watching The Fast and Furious
and thinking that's how you learn to drive. Like, It's
just it's totally different things. So we don't want people
feeling like they need to live up to that. So yeah,
(24:02):
it just gets very complicated, and it's really dependent on
the couple.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
For the couples that have kind of lost hope in
their sex life, like, is there something in your book
too that gives them well A, I mean a lot
of people struggle with sex and their marriage and relationships,
But is there something too that they can like like, Okay,
you know I'm not alone in this, and this is
this is going to help like tangibility with it in
(24:27):
a way.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Absolutely. So one important piece is that we lead with
a lot of vulnerability. You know, we do share stories
of our ups and downs to really try to help
normalize this and help people realize like pretty much every
couple is going to struggle with their sex life in
one way or another at one time or another, like
it's normal and it's okay. And then more practically, the
(24:50):
second conversation in Sex Talks is called connection, like what
do we need to feel close to each other? And
I think a lot of people are surprised to see
that chapter. They're like, I thought this was a book
about sex, but really like sex and emotional intimacy, Like
they're so deeply entwined in a long term relationship. And
for a lot of people, if your sex life is suffering,
(25:13):
there are probably also issues with your emotional intimacy as well,
the connection that the two of you feel. So there
are a lot of amazing exercises and conversations within that
chapter about figuring out, like what do we need to
feel close to each other again? To feel like important
to each other again? So to make that even more
practical and give like another specific thing that somebody could do.
(25:35):
One of the exercises in that chapter is to practice
sharing gratitude for each other. I know a lot of
people kind of like yeah, yeah, I know, gratitude journal whatever,
but gratitude was actually found, like there was one study
that found gratitude was the number one predictor of marital satisfaction.
Number one gratitude. So the interesting thing about gratitude is
(25:58):
it's really easy to do too, Like if you take free,
free seconds, it's free, it's easy, it doesn't take very
much time, and you'll be shocked to see what a
huge different difference it makes if you try to take
some time throughout your day to just call out the
things that you see your partner doing, Like, hey, I
saw that you unloaded the dishwasher. I really appreciate that.
(26:20):
I saw that you took the dogs out. That was
really nice of you. I saw that you you know whatever.
It is, like it's so easy, but it has a
really big impact.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Yeah, I mean, we fall into this trap, I think,
especially in the long term, of looking at those things
as like, oh, well, that's their job and this is
you know, these things are my job and those things
are their job, so like why why would I be
thinking them for that? And it turns it into this
sort of transactional thing like you do your stuff, I
do my stuff. That's how we make everything work. But
(26:50):
you know, a relationship, a marriage, like your sex life,
it's not a transactional thing. And so I think if
you start, if it starts feeling like everything in your
relationlationship is purely transactional, that it's a job. Like that,
we start to lose touch with like you know, what,
what is the relationship all about? Like why did we
(27:10):
get into this relationship in the first place. Like there's
there's more to it than the transactional. There's so much
connection and fun and playfulness.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I think that's great. And honestly, I mean, you know,
I my sex is great, Like I'm not like I'm
not in a like a very it's it's very I'm
in the very fun stage right with the new boyfriend.
So but I feel like this book is for people
that you know at all stages because it just opens communication.
So whether you're it's great or struggling, like there are
ups and downs no matter what. So just to have
(27:40):
this book as just like an open communication I think
is great for what wherever you are at in your
sex journey.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Right, Yeah, yeah, we really wanted, like Sanda was saying earlier,
like a lot of people have the idea we only
go to sex therapy or we only work on our
sex life if it's bad. But we really want to
spread this message that every couple, no matter how great
your sex life is or how you know, how tough
it is right now, like every couple can benefit from
having these conversations. And the really cool thing about sex
(28:09):
is there's always something new to learn, there's always something
new to explore. And it doesn't mean that what you're
doing now isn't good enough. It's just like there's a
whole world of possibilities. Why wouldn't we try exploring it
with each other.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, the reality is that you know, over the course
of a relationship, like things change, like each of our
you know, I feel like, okay, right now, our sex
drives are super in sync where it's it's super easy
and effortless, but you know, everything goes up and down
their cycles to everything, and you know, like it's it
felt like total the effortless for us at the beginning,
(28:43):
and then you know, things started changing and you know,
you know, there we've been through periods of mismatched, periods
of being in more sync, and so yeah, to the
extent that you can start getting comfortable with all this stuff.
When it's good, it's going to make it so much
easier as soon as you know, I'm not trying to
say that when things get bad, like just as soon
as things just start to shift, it's so much easier
(29:06):
to just acknowledge it and to be aware of it
and to talk about it openly, like Okay, huh this
is going on, Like huh, what can we do as
a team to address this or to you know, try
to make this a little easier rather than the kind
of like, oh hm, seeming like this isn't working as well,
and you know, oh, let's let's just see what happens, right,
(29:27):
And I hope it gets better and you know, without
acknowledging it.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Sure well. I love that you guys are doing this,
especially as a you know, husband and wife team. I
think that's great. Again, Like it's it's helping both sides
and understanding the husband's point of view from the wife's
view and vice versa. So I think that's great. So
everyone get their book Sex Talks The Five Conversations that
Will Transform Your Love Life and listen to their podcast,
Pillow Talks, Oh with Xander and Vanessa, I love it.
(29:52):
Thank you guys so much for coming on mine.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Den, thank you for having a chatting with you. Yeah,
you too,
Host
Jana Kramer
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