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January 3, 2024 27 mins

Who was Jack Ruby? And why did this nightclub owner and low-level mobster murder Lee Harvey Oswald? We look at the strange treatment of Oswald while in custody and the reactions to Kennedy’s death from leaders around the world.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On Monday, November twenty fifth, nineteen sixty three, President Kennedy
was laid to rest in Arlington National Cemetery at the
First Lady's request. The ceremony followed the same protocols for
Abraham Lincoln's funeral nearly one hundred years earlier. The flag
drape casket was drawn by six gray horses. It was

(00:26):
followed by one riderless black horse. Crowds line Pennsylvania Avenue
as the procession passed, Only the sounds of the drums
and the clacking of horses hoofs on the pavement could
be heard. I'll never forget the rhythm bum bum bum
bump up bup bum bum bum bup up up bum

(00:47):
bum bum bump bup, bup bum bum bum bum. Missus Kennedy,
surrounded by family, friends, official dignitaries, and a military escort,
walked to Saint Matthew's Cathedral for the service. Heads of
state and representatives from more than one hundred countries attended
the funeral. Millions of people around the world tuned in

(01:11):
to watch on television. After the service, the president's remains
were laid to rest at Arlington Memorial Cemetery, where Missus
Kennedy lit an eternal flame. Two hundred and fifty thousand
people waited up to ten hours in freezing temperatures to
pay their respects. The nation was in mourning at virtually

(01:35):
the same time, Lee Harvey Oswald, who had been murdered
twenty four hours earlier on live television by nightclub owner
Jack Ruby, was also being put to rest. Along with
Oswald's remains, secrets were buried.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
This is who killed JFK. Sixty years later? What can
we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history?
And why does it still matter today? I'm your host,
Solidad O'Brien.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
We've shown evidence that indicates that at the time of
the shooting, Oswald was not on the sixth floor of
the Texas school Book Depository building. He seemed to know
that he was part of something, but likely didn't know
exactly what it was. But when he heard that the
president had been shot, he realized at that point that

(02:33):
he was in danger. He fled the scene, and he
was ultimately arrested at the Texas Movie Theater. At the
Dallas police station, he claimed his innocence when he spoke
this phrase, I'm just a Patsy. Within forty eight hours
of his arrest, Jack Ruby saw to it that Lee
Harvey Oswald would never speak again. A year later, the

(02:55):
Warren Commission report was released to the public. It set
out with goal of pinning it all on Oswald, and
it did. They wanted him to look like a lone gunman.
Here's what they had to say about Jack Ruby.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
The Warren Commission report says, quote, no direct or indirect
relationship between Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby has been
discovered by the Commission, nor has it been able to
find any credible evidence that either knew the other. The
Commission has found no evidence that Jack Ruby acted with
any other person in the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
And they took Ruby at his word when he told
them that he had killed Oswald out of sympathy for Jackie.
He wanted to spare her the pain of having to
return to Dallas for a trial.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
That seems just a bit absurd as an excuse.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yes it does, but it wasn't all that Jack Ruby
had to say. He said something to his jailer after
being arrested for killing Oswald, and it speaks to some
something much much bigger. Solo, Dad, Could you read this?

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Sure quote? Now they're going to find out about Cuba,
the guns, New Orleans and everything.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
Ruby was concerned that his connection to the CIA funded
anti castro operations would be uncovered.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
How exactly is a guy like Jack Ruby connected to
what's happening in Cuba and New Orleans.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well to understand that, we need to understand who exactly
Jack Ruby was. Jack Ruby was born in Chicago. He
was born Jacob Leon Rubinstein. At eleven, he was arrested
for truancy. He spent time in foster homes. He dropped
out of school and eventually joined the Teamsters Union. After

(04:45):
serving in World War Two, he moved to Dallas. He
changed his name to Jack Ruby, and he started managing
nightclubs and strip joints around town.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
There's evidence he also became involved in narcotics, prostitution, and
obviously these are all businesses that are connected to the mob.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
The Dallas County Sheriff, Steve Guthrie told the FBI that
he believed quote Ruby operated some prostitution activities and other
vices in his club. He was cozy with the Dallas police.
Officers would come into his club and he'd give them
free booze, and he'd make sure that the women paid
proper attention.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Hum quite the host.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Along with running his clubs, Ruby became involved in running
guns for the mob.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
A friend of Ruby's named James E. Baird spoke to
the Dallas Morning News and testified to the FBI saying
that Jack Ruby quote stored guns and ammunition in a
two story house between the waterfront and the railroad tracks
in Kema, Texas. Baird personally saw Ruby and his associates
load quote many boxes of new guns, including automatic rifles

(05:59):
and handguns. Where exactly was he running these guns too?

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Cuba. In September nineteen fifty nine, Ruby traveled to Havana
as a guest of a close friend named Louis J. Mcwilly.
Before Castro took over, Florida, mob boss Santos Traficanti chose
mcwilly to run his casino in Havana, and after Castro

(06:25):
came to power, mcwilly was arrested and thrown out of
the country. Back in the US, mcwilly was hired by Meyer, Lanski,
and Sam Giancana to run their casinos in Las Vegas.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
Five days before Kennedy was gunned down in Dallas. Ruby
was seen at the Thunderbird in Vegas with mcwilly.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
You know, people often get lost in the semantics of
whether or not Ruby was a mobster. Well, he wasn't
a made man himself, but he had clear connections to
the mob It's the world he grew up in and
the world he operated from in Dallas. They say you
can tell a lot about a person by the company
they keep. The House Select Committee looked at Ruby's phone

(07:08):
records in the days leading up to November twenty second,
and they discovered that he had made numerous phone calls
to known mobsters.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
Their report showed that weeks prior to the assassination, Ruby
made approximately one hundred and twenty calls to mobsters associated
with Sam g and Kanna and Carlos Marcello.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
So how does this relate back to Oswald.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Well, just like we saw an uptick in activity around
Oswald leading up to the assassination, the same was true
of Ruby. Ruby and Oswald operated in the same sphere.
So it should come as no surprise when I tell
you that, contrary to the Warrant Commission's conclusion that there
was no direct or indirect relationship between Lee Harvey Oswald

(07:56):
and Jack Ruby. There is plenty of evidence that the
two some of them knew each other. How do we
know that, Well, there are eyewitnesses who talked on the
record about Ruby and Oswald's relationship.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
Dorothy Markham, a woman who dated Ruby, told the FBI
that Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July. Clyde
Malcolm Limbaugh, who worked for Ruby for three years, said
he saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions. Helen K. Smith,
who worked at the Carousel Club, told the Dallas Police

(08:30):
that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on many occasions.
And Robert Roy, Ruby's auto mechanic, said that Oswald used
to drop off Ruby's car for repairs.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
And then there's Sharry Angel, one of the most popular
strippers at Ruby's club. Dick interviewed her years ago.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
I heard that you remember Oswald being in the club
as well. Yeah, what do you remember about that.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Nancy carrying twist been hitting ruin town?

Speaker 4 (09:02):
Got my husband of communist, called your husband a common
for an audience.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, if you miss that. She said that she remembers
Oswald doing the twist with a woman named Kathy k
and her husband hitting him because Oswald called him a communist.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
So Oswald and Ruby definitely knew each other in the
club before it happened.

Speaker 5 (09:24):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
And none of those witnesses testified to the Warren Commission.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
None. And it wasn't until seven months after he killed
Oswald that Ruby was even interviewed by the Commission. And
what he said and didn't get to say will shock you.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Why did the Warren Commission wait so long to interview
Jack Ruby? How was he not at the top of
the list?

Speaker 1 (10:02):
You tell me? Before being interviewed by the Commission, Ruby
insisted on taking a lie detector test.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
In the Warren Commission report, it says that quote as
early as December of nineteen sixty three, Jack Ruby expressed
his desire to be examined with a polygraph, truth serum
or any other scientific device which would test his veracity.
And did they give him one?

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Well, no, not at first. Eventually they did.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
What did it show?

Speaker 1 (10:31):
The Warren Commission said that they found it inconclusive.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
What does inconclusive mean?

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Well, they said that they couldn't verify the answers as
true or false based on concerns they had over Ruby's
mental state it was an excuse that they used for
other witnesses that didn't perfectly fit into the predetermined narrative.
Ruby was frustrated, and when the war report came out,
this is what he said to the press.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Ruby said, quote, the Warren Report never gave me the
true authentity when I requested a polygraph test. He then
goes on to say, why they held back the answers
the results, whether they're true or false, that's for you
to find out. That's for you to find out. That's
pretty ominous.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
I think he wanted to tell the truth about why
he killed Oswald, but he knew that his life would
be in danger if he did so. Ruby told the
Warren Commission that if they got him out of Dallas,
he would tell them everything he knew.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
He would tell them everything. Kind of can't get more
loaded than that.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
No, no, you can't. And he said, quote, gentlemen, unless
you take me to Washington, you can't get a fair
shake out of me. If you want to hear any
further testimony out of me, you'll have to get me
to Washington soon. I want to tell the truth, and
I can't tell it here. This isn't the place for
me to tell you what I want to tell.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Did they take him to DC?

Speaker 1 (12:00):
He never left Dallas.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
After he was denied his trip to Washington. Ruby said quote,
I may not live tomorrow to give any further testimony.
I want to get out to the public, and I
can't say it here.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Why couldn't he speak in Dallas? Why do you think
he wanted to move so badly?

Speaker 1 (12:20):
He was terrified for his life, He said, quote, I
tell you, gentlemen, my whole family is in jeopardy. He
didn't want to end up like George de Mornshield, who
mysteriously died the day he was subpoenaed to testify to
the House Select Committee, or Johnny Roselli, who was found
chopped up and stuffed in an oil drum right before

(12:40):
he was supposed to appear before the committee, or Richard K. Snagel,
who died the day he received a subpoena to testify
to the Assassination Record's Review Board.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
Here is how Robert Blakey, head of the House Select
Committee on Assassinations, interpreted Ruby's remarks.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Blakey said, quote, Ruby, I was trying to tell the
truth about the conspiracy he knew existed, but he feared
for his life. You'll remember that Robert Blakey had a
background in targeting organized crime.

Speaker 4 (13:13):
No Mah kills witnesses who are potential people who can
tell the true story. And that's the reason I think
Jack Ruby shortly Harvey Osweoll.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
From the time Kennedy was shot and killed until he
himself was shot and killed, Oswald was in custody for
just under forty eight hours. Here's a transcript from a
press conference during that period. Sola ed, could you read.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
This sure, reporter, did you kill the President Oswald? No, sir,
I didn't. People keep asking me that, reporter, did you
shoot the President Oswald? I work in that building? Reporter?
Were you in the building at the time? Oswald? Naturally
if I work in that building, yes, sir, reporter, did

(13:58):
you shoot the President Oswald?

Speaker 4 (14:01):
No?

Speaker 2 (14:01):
They are taking me in because of the fact that
I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy.
It's remarkable that he's just out there fending for himself. Usually,
you know, in any press conference with a suspected criminal,
their lawyer would speak for them.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
Oswald was never granted a lawyer.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Did he get to make any phone calls?

Speaker 1 (14:21):
He called Marina at Ruth Paynes, and there's evidence that
he made one other call and it's significant. He placed
a call to a military counter intelligence officer in North
Carolina named John Hurt. And how do we know that
because there's a receipt showing that the operator placed the call.

(14:41):
The switchboard operators who placed long distance calls for people
inside the jail were required to fill out a slip.
A researcher found the slip with the date eleven twenty
three sixty three and John Hurt's name and telephone number.
The woman working the switchboard evening said that the call

(15:01):
was never answered and that the two men in suits
that were in the room likely made sure that the
call never went through.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Researchers found John Hurd decades later to ask him about
the call. He claimed he never knew Oswald and was
completely unaware that Oswald had tried to call him, But
he also didn't share the fact that he was military counterintelligence.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
What do you think he was hoping to accomplish with
the call? If he actually got Hurt on the line,
it was likely, and.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
This process has been confirmed by XCIA agents, that Oswald
was trying to reach a cutout a go between to
get a message to his case officer. He was going
through a process designed for people on intelligence missions to
get help, but since the call was never put through,
Oswald was hung out to dry.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
In another press conference at the police station, a reporter
asks did you kill the president? And Oswald says, quote, no,
I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody
has said that to me yet. The reporter then tells Oswald,
you have been charged, and Oswald is absolutely stunned.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
In the televised report of this moment, you can really
see his shock reaction to this in real time.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
He's realizing the implications of it all, that this horrific
crime is going to be pinned on him. And again,
he didn't just say that he was innocent. He said
he was a patsy. He knew that the men responsible
for this had used him. That's why from the moment
Oswald is brought to the police station, Jack Ruby starts

(16:42):
to stalk him. Ruby's movements just before he kills Oswald
show that this was not a spontaneous emotional decision. Ruby
was part of something much bigger. Jack Ruby showed up

(17:07):
at the police station at least twice before he found
the opportunity on his third visit to take Oswald out.
He was there during a press conference.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
At DA Henry Wade's press conference when Wade mistakenly identified
Oswald as a member of the anti Castro Free Cuba Committee.
Ruby corrected the DA saying, quote, no, sir, mister District Attorney,
Oswald was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
None of the press, or police or FBI there caught
the DA's mistake, but nightclub owner Jack Ruby did. It's
just so bizarre. First of all, why is a nightclub
owner at this press conference to begin with? And second,
how does he know the difference between the Free Cuba
and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Speaker 2 (17:55):
So what exactly is the implication there.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
That Ruby knew all about Oswald.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
We spoke with a man named John Currington about the
time leading up to Oswald's death. Now, John Currington, for
years was the right hand man for oil Baron hl Hunt.
Hunt was one of the richest men in America, with
influence at the highest levels of government and the mafia.
Now Here is John Carrington talking about a call he

(18:23):
received on Saturday, November twenty third from hl Hunt.

Speaker 5 (18:27):
He called me about four or five Clark and asked
me to go down to the police station and check
on what security, if any, there was around Lee Harvey
orwoll And he said, whenever you find out what I
won't know about security, come to the house.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
So what did you find?

Speaker 5 (18:46):
I go down to police station and I had no
trouble walking in walking out. I did have a briefcase
with me. Nobody looked in that brafcase and I was
satisfied that there was no security or whatsoever surrounding Lee
Harvey ol Waldt.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
And why did mister Hunt ask you to check out
the security situation?

Speaker 5 (19:06):
He wroted Lee Harvey ol wall of silence without having
any kind of court here or any something else.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
They knew that they could easily get to oswald They
just needed the right guy to handle the job, and
Hunt knew just who to turn to.

Speaker 5 (19:23):
I went after mister Holt's house and he said, I
want to get a hold of Joe Savello and have
him here as early as they can Sunday morning.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Joseph Ello was the head of the mob in Dallas.
It's the morning of the twenty fourth, two days after
the assassination at.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Ten thirty five, Ira Walker, a television technician, is inside
the station's news van outside the city hall. Jack Ruby
comes up to the window and asks has he been
brought down yet?

Speaker 1 (19:55):
The he is Lee Harvey Oswald. Ruby knows that Oswald
is going to be moved that day, and he hangs
around to make sure that he is there when it happens.
At eleven seventeen, Ruby walks up an alley, passes through
the crowd, and enters the ramp into the police station.

(20:15):
Within minutes, he's positioned directly in front of Oswald and
then he shoots Oswald.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Here's David Talbot again.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
He's a mafia eron boy. That's why he killed Oswald.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
In the mafia was the Aeron boys for the CIA.
They used the mafia to do their dirty work.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
And here's the head of the House Select Committee, Robert Blakey.

Speaker 4 (20:42):
Jack Ruby was the perfect guy to do it. Mob connected,
but loosely.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Ruby gave an interview in March of nineteen sixty five,
a year after his conviction.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
In the interview, Ruby said, quote, everything pertaining to what's
happening has never come to the surface. The world will
never know the true facts of what occurred my motives.
The people who had so much to gain and had
such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position
I'm in will never let the true facts come above
board to the world.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
In nineteen sixty six, Jack Ruby died in prison, three
years after the assassination of President Kennedy. He died of
a pulmonary embolism caused by complications from a cancer that
came on suddenly and aggressively. In the next episode, we'll

(21:35):
lay out in detail how we think the assassination took place.
We will name the shooters and give you their locations.
But before we finished this episode, we need to talk
about something that for the most part, has been ignored,
and that's the impact that Kennedy's death had on the
rest of the world.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
On the day of the assassination, Fidel Castro was lunch
with a French reporter named Jean Danielle. Danielle reported that
when Castro got word that the president had been shot,
he said, sunamala noisia, this is bad news. He said
it three times. Then when he got confirmation that Kennedy

(22:17):
had died, he said, quote, everything is going to change. Then,
as he processed the situation, Castro said, quote, now they
will have to find the assassin quickly, but very quickly.
Otherwise you watch and see, I know them. They will
try to put the blame on us for this thing.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Which is exactly what they did.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Reports that were declassified in twenty seventeen show that the
KGB held a series of emergency meetings when they heard
the news. Sergei Khrushchev, Nikita's son wrote in a memoir
about his father that when his father heard the news,
he quote fell to his knees and sobbed. The Soviet

(22:59):
parties knew newspaper Pravda ran a biography depicting Kennedy as
a champion of peace.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
It's completely counterintuitive to think that the Soviets or the
Cubans had anything to do with this. Kennedy was trying
to forge a path towards peace with them. He was
their great hope.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Then who did these foreigners think?

Speaker 4 (23:20):
Did it?

Speaker 1 (23:21):
I believe that the answer to your question can be
provided by French President Charles de gaull.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
Degall shared his thoughts about the assassination with his Information
Minister Roger Parafiet, who then shared these thoughts in.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
His memoir Degall says, quote what happened to Kennedy is
what nearly happened to me. The security forces were in
cahoots with extremists. Then Paraft asked a Gaull, do you
think Oswald was affront Everything leads me to believe it.
De Gaull replied, they got their hands on this communist

(23:57):
who wasn't one while still being one. He had a
subpar intellect and was an exalted fanatic, just the man
they needed, the perfect one to be accused. The guy
ran away because he probably became suspicious. They wanted to
kill him on the spot before he could be grabbed
by the judicial system. Degall continued, security forces all over

(24:19):
the world are the same when they do this kind
of dirty work. As soon as they succeed in wiping
out the false assassin, they declare that the justice system
no longer need be concerned, that no further public action
was needed now that the guilty perpetrator was dead. Better
to assassinate an innocent man than to let a civil

(24:40):
war break out. Better an injustice than disorder. Degall said,
America is in danger of upheavals, but you'll see all
of them together, will observe the law of silence. They
will close ranks. They'll do everything to stifle any scandal,
in order to not lose face in front of the

(25:02):
whole world, in order to not risk unleashing riots in
the United States, in order to preserve the Union, and
to avoid a new civil war, in order to not
ask themselves questions they don't want to know, they don't
want to find out. They won't allow themselves to find out.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
De gall was right on just about all of it
except one thing. I believe Americans do want to find out.
We do want to know what happened, and on the
next episode we're going to tell you.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Next episode, Rob and Dick finally answer the question who
killed JFK. I see the hallmarks or the markers of
this potentially being a CIA operation that rogues would have conducted.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
This was the top secret facility. He was there all
during that fateful weekend. RVO was a damn thing in
the world. But a dicoy.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Who Killed JFK? Is hosted by Rob Reiner and me
Solidad O'Brien and our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner,
Matt George Jason English, David Hoffman and Me Solidad O'Brien.
Our writer is David Hoffman, with research by Dick Russell.
Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pineto. Our

(26:27):
senior producer is Julie Pinneto. Our producers are Tristan Nash,
Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfein, and Amari Lee. Our editors are
Tristan Nash, Julie Pinneo, and Marcus de Laudro. Our project
manager is Carol Klein. Our associate producer is emilse Kiros. Mixing,

(26:48):
mastering and sound design by Ben la Julier. Research and
fact checking by Girl Friday and emilse Kiros. Archival audio
in this episode thanks to Dick Russell and Rob Reiner.
Business affairs by Hennan Narea and Jonathan Fermit. Our consulting
producer is Razanne Galliini. Recorded in part at CDM Studio

(27:10):
and Fourth Street Recording Studio. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla.
Special thanks to Johenig Rose Arsay and Dan Storper. If
you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review
on your favorite podcast platform. Who Killed JFK as a
production of Solidad O'Brien productions and iHeart podcasts.
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