Jeffrey Marsh on the Transformative, Radical Power of Self-Acceptance

LeAnn is joined by non-binary LGBTQ activist and icon, Jeffrey Marsh, whose message of inclusion and acceptance has resonated with hundreds of millions on social media- for good reason!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
Heart Radio. Welcome Loves to one of my favorite episodes
and guests of this season. You know this shows a
little bit longer than usual because it is very difficult
to place any limitations, time or otherwise on the force

(00:22):
of nature joining me today, Jeffrey Marsh has garnered a
fantastic following sharing their powerful manifesto of a radical self
love and acceptance, and I cannot wait for you to
meet them on today's Holy Fact. The fantastic eyeshadow of

(01:06):
the thing that you have going on right now is beautiful.
It's so good. It's both. I've decided to blend green,
orange and yellow. That's so good. Why wouldn't you all
for you? I have to show you my earrings before
we get started. They're too jangly to wear our zoom,
but appreciate, appreciate that. I am so excited that you

(01:33):
are here. Thank you so so much for coming on
this podcast and sharing yourself and your soul and your wisdom. Um,
I really am honored. And I'm gonna cry. I feel
like I'm gonna cry because I'm like, I'm such a
let's crying together. Let's do it. We probably will by
the time we're done, so can I. I just have

(01:54):
to say, I didn't know we would go this deep
this quickly, but I have to say I feel incredibly
luck to be connecting with you, not just because of
who you are and your heart and how your music
moves people and the essence of who you are, but
also because this is a great opportunity to talk about

(02:15):
our hearts and people have been feeling so isolated because
in our culture, in our world, you're not supposed to
talk about stuff like that. Yes, and add to that
that the world is what it is and we're feeling
even more isolated. It's just so wonderful to be able

(02:37):
to connect with you. Thank you, Thank you. You lucky.
I am too, I'm so so fortunate, so thank you.
Thank you for sharing that. Um. I would love to
hear from your own, your own math, your own perspective.
If someone asks you who you are and what you do,
how would you answer that question. I help people not

(03:03):
hate themselves, so darn much. That's what I do. Who
I am is hopefully fingers crossed, the walking example of that,
the walking embodiment of that you truly are that's what
I see when I when I see you, you exude

(03:24):
love and there are very few people in this world
who are connected like you're saying to the heart in
that way that it actually gets to be expressed and
it's not hardened. And you have every reason in this
world to have a wall around your heart. M And

(03:47):
the way that you let people in and allow for
that kind of connection, it's intense. I mean, I think
that's why you immediately saw me move to you know,
almost tears, because you don't come across that often. And
that's so sad, you know, it's sad that we have
we've had to wall our hearts in that way. And
for you to be so open and connect in the

(04:10):
way that you do, it's so moving. You know. What
It makes me think of as inner child work, and
which a lot of people find mysterious and they resist
and and don't know what to think about it. And
to me, I realized at a certain point that my
inner child was actually uh teaching me as much as

(04:31):
I wanted to teach my inner child. That makes sense.
The walls were built by sort of the adult Jeffrey,
and my inner child was holding onto the innocence the play,
the freedom, the sense of being alive, m and so
I was just so grateful for you know, little Jeffrey

(04:54):
on the farm. Yes, growing up and having having to
be brave and face all the things that came eventually. Yeah,
I mean you say that you you hope people hate
themselves less, which is a tall order. It seems like,
I mean, it seems like that's what we're all walking
around doing, and that's basically self flagellation, like constantly internally.

(05:17):
And you've basically become this, you know, social media icon
ambassador for self love and positivity and inclusivity. And can
you take me You just said something about wow, you
googled me. No, but no, you, that's just you. That's
just you, and it's authentic. It's not just like, oh,
I feel like everybody else is doing it, so I

(05:39):
should be talking about these things are really really authentic.
And I just wonder you mentioned little Jeffrey on the Farm.
Can you take me back to uh, your childhood and
maybe talk about what your family dynamic was like and
how that path has led you to to become such
an ambassador for self love. Yeah, I mean you said

(06:00):
it right at the top of the pod uh that
I had a lot of reasons to build walls around
my heart, and let me say, for years I tried it.
There's just something about I'll speak for myself, there's something
about me that I was wholly unsuccessful at hiding. I

(06:21):
really tried, brick by brick to pretend to be something
I'm not for a very very long time, and I
was just woefully bad at it. And you know, speaking
of self hey, well right, I mean, that's what I've
realized now. But speaking of self hate, I thought for
years and years that there's something wrong with me that
I can't fit in, that I can't be a cog

(06:44):
in this machine that we've all decided to build around
our lives. Right, that I must I must be untalented
at it, or there must be something wrong with me.
And one of the most powerful messages I ever ever
encountered was, there is nothing wrong with you. So you
asked me about the farm, and I'll answer in sort

(07:06):
of a roundabout way. My dad apologized to me for
my childhood just a few years ago, and it was,
shall we say, an emotional moment for me to hear
that for a couple of reasons, but he just started saying,
I had this realization, I was worried what other parents

(07:28):
would think of me, and so I used, he's a
man of few words. Um, so I'm embellishing a little bit.
But he said I was worried what other parents would
think of me, which I took to mean that he
thought that my queerness was his fault. My exuberant colorfulness,

(07:51):
my exuberant lgbt Q nous meant that he was a
bad parent, And so, without putting too fine a point
on it, he used every single method he could think of,
including violent ones, to get me not to be me. Mhm.
And that's my predominant memory of every person I was

(08:12):
looking I was thinking back trying to come up with someone.
Basically every person was either embarrassed to be around me,
tried to get me not to be myself, called me names,
made fun of me, and tried to get me not
to be me. And it's been a long journey to
be what you see, that authentic representation of me without shape. Wow. Um, that's,

(08:36):
by the way, you couldn't recognize unless it was also you. Yes. Oh,
by the way, Um, I was going to say, you
feel free to ask me any questions because I totally
relate to that. I grew up, I mean, you know,
in the public eye, and yes, there were so many
pieces of myself, so much fragmentation, so many pieces that
I had to and still am reclaiming, because there was

(09:00):
only one version that was really acceptable, and it was
Leanne rhymes right, And I totally understand that hiding. I
think that's for me. I've always been a huge supporter
of LGBTQ, and I think there were a couple of reasons.
I grew up in Mississippi. My uncle was gay and
died of AIDS when I was eleven, and so I

(09:20):
always wanted to give him a voice that he didn't have.
And I've known in a completely different way what it
feels like to hide and only be accepted for what
the world wants you to be. And I've known that
hiding in that loneliness and that so deeply that I

(09:45):
relate in so many ways. You oh, you hit the
nail on the head, so you're safe behind that wall,
but you're also incredibly lonely, completely deeply, and you said
it was hiding in a different way, but I think
it was pretty similar to at least what I went through. Right.
I mean, you felt this incredible pressure to be something

(10:10):
you're not. Yeah, and also I don't want to put
words in your mouth. But then there comes this feeling
of inadequacy because you can't do it. M M. Absolutely,
that's that's yeah, you can't hide yourself and well, and
the more that you do, um, I mean, the more
the depression and anxiety and everything else comes online. Right,
And and I'm still reclaiming a lot of those pieces.

(10:32):
And that's why when I when I look at you,
I there's a piece of me that still is is
under the illusion that it's not free. I'll just put
it that way. And I look at you and I
see such freedom, um, and it sets me free like that,
it's set It reminds that piece of me. And I
think that's what so many people see in your reminds

(10:54):
us that there is, like you said, this innocence and
this freedom that is inherently there that is ours to reclaim.
It's ours to reclaim. Yeah, you know that a lot
of people see that freedom and they get very scared
of me. Yes, I'm sure you've experienced the same thing. Yes,

(11:18):
And I love that because it's just showing you where
you're still where you're not free. Yeah. Um, I wish
people could recognize that in themselves, but instead of trying
to stop people like us, which is the usual, uh,
the usual reaction. But I want to ask you a question,

(11:39):
because you said you're reclaiming some of those parts of
your childhood, can you give me an example, because I
think that's inspiring. Yeah, well so interesting. Well, the little Lie,
I call it little Lily. Um, I'm definitely reclaiming her.
I feel like she's been in the basement for a
really long time and she's been wanting to come out
and play. And my play has been such a huge

(12:01):
piece of what I have been reclaiming. And also we'll
dig into this in a second, but I grew up
with basically a tomboy because my my dad always knew.
My dad wanted a boy. I was that was very
that was expressed early on, and I it was expressed.

(12:23):
And they don't people don't know how much that fucks
you up, like when of course you know, like and
they say it in the most loving way, especially in
the South. Oh, your dad he wanted a boy, but
he got a girl. He just loves you so much,
now you know, And that it's he went through a
long journey to just really get over Yes, exactly. And

(12:47):
I learned how to hunt when I was little. I
played baseball. And I'm glad that I have the range
of things that I know about myself. But my femininity,
interest stingly enough, this is the little girl, like the
actual girly girl, and the my own femininity as a
woman has been something that I am continually reclaiming and

(13:12):
learning about because I feel I felt like that, Yeah,
I grew up in such a masculine world. I mean
we all have, and so I feel like I had
to like shut down that piece of myself and so
to be you know, kind of coming into that and
recognizing as a woman, I'm a woman and finally claiming

(13:35):
my own femininity, you know, which is which is kind
of a mind fuck in a way a bit. Yeah,
And there's so sometimes, um, whatever is authentic for you
is what we're taught is wrong with us m hm.
And so you might have learned at some point that

(13:55):
that femininity was was something wrong with you. Yeah. Absolutely,
And how powerful to reclaim something so natural, so free,
so beautiful. Yeah, Yeah, I mean there's definitely a point
where I I think a lot of women have learned that,
you know, there's something wrong with our femininity and that

(14:16):
we were weak in some way for having it, when
I mean did complete opposite is the truth. It's so
powerful when we we learned how to own that piece
of ourselves anyway, masculine, feminine, whoever we are, the truth
of who we are. And I think that's what's been
so beautiful for me is actually learning how to learning

(14:37):
that I am both, which will which I'd love to
talk to you about, because I find that you have
made me. You're talking my language, Well, you have made me.
First off, I learned what cis was. I've never known
what cis is. I'm like, oh, okay, that's a new one.
I've learned so much from you, and people are frantically
googling now on right, what the hell is that? Yeah,

(15:00):
and the with non binary I as I've been listening
to you, I'm like, well, I am am, I I'm
they right. I mean I feel like I am both.
I have both energies. I know them both well, my
masculine sometimes more than my feminine. Can you speak to
that a little bit, because I just find you just
did so. I am no I am noticing this. I

(15:23):
don't know, I don't know. Um, I'm gonna be very delicate,
but I sense this hesitancy from you to let me
speak and to have a voice about this. But I
hope you also know that you were just incredibly eloquent
about your own experience. Oh thank you. I'm just finding

(15:47):
what I've learned from you is yes, this is what yes, please,
I would love for you to spep. I mean, it's
not just what you've learned from me, it's what you've
learned from your own life, which is always welcome, is
incredibly valuable. You know. To me, a lot of people
write to me and ask about the labels, says is

(16:07):
a good one, trans, non binary, gender fluid, is gender queer,
are different than gray sexual, And you know, the kids
have all these labels that they love to use on
their internets, and to me, they're really empowering and nothing
at all should be put ahead of someone's personal experience.

(16:33):
So whatever words, and you know, at the end of
the day, we're using a language that is weighed down
with a past that didn't always include people people like me,
but also a past that was misogynist, a present that's misogynist.
That's built into our language, right, So we're using a

(16:56):
language it's woefully inadequate to talk about something as vibrant
to full rainbow, gorgeous flowing as human gender expression. M hm.
So anyway, use whatever words you want. And you were doing,
uh great, you moved me. Oh thank you. But anyway,

(17:16):
you wanted me to talk about non binary. Yes, I
would love to hear about your experience of you said
the other day that non binary. I watched a video
of yours that said it was a movement. Can you
explain what do you mean by that? Yeah, it's I
think what I mean and what I meant in that

(17:37):
video was non binary is a place to belong. To me,
there are those of us walking the earth and we
know it's a deep knowing within our soul that there's
more to us than what we were taught. There's more
to us than the gender on our birth certificate, if

(17:59):
that makes and there's just more that's that's vibrant and
wonderful about us. And to me, the word non binary
is a great catch all for someone who is the
way I would say it is, I'm not a man,
I'm not a woman. I contain parts of both of
those things, but I'm also you know, a hundred and

(18:22):
three other things and that we can just throw into
the wheelbarrow of gender expression. And I feel so free
and such a beautiful weight was lifted off of me
when I read a Tumbler post that said what non
binary was. It was like a key in a lock
and something new was opened up for me. And we're

(18:50):
going to dive more deeply into exactly what opened up
for Jeffrey once they made that discovery right after this
super quick break Welcome Back, My Loves the Wonderful Jeffrey
marsh is sharing their thoughts on discovering non binary and
their pronouns. How long ago is that? Gosh? I came
out as non binary like years ago, okay, and started

(19:16):
using the then pronouns then so a while but still
relatively new. Yeah. Absolutely, And I felt so complicated in
my gender from an extremely young age. Yeah, I mean
that's like, yeah, I mean it's really I love that

(19:38):
you say there's like a hundred and something different other
things that we could be, because I really feel like
this is its soul expression, you know, it's it's not Yeah,
it's so much more like when you get down to it,
like it's so much more complicated than than just these
simple terms, because we just are Oh yeah, maybe it's

(20:02):
appropriate to say that the term non binary comes from
not being the two genders that are usually available to people,
man and woman, So man and woman would be a binary,
and we just say we're non binary. And to me,
it's it's a place of freedom and belonging. Yeah, and

(20:22):
you totally I sensed that, and it's it's a beautiful
it's a beautiful place because that's ultimately, I think what
we're all looking for is is that freedom and belonging.
I wanted to tell you a little funny story because
I was first famous on vine years and years and
years ago and about a decade ago, and the the

(20:45):
young people started saying, what are your pronouns? Are you
non binary? And so I, as the semi old person
at like thirty years old, had to go and look
on the internet. And that's when I saw, Oh, this
is who I am, this is what's been going on
this whole time. There are other people like me. And

(21:09):
the really beautiful thing about our times is that people
are now connecting digitally and they're not going physically into
work and you know, all these things that have kept
us in our homes, and people's conception of their gender
is shifting and changing and freeing up because of what's

(21:32):
happening in the world right now. That's just such a
beautiful um change because people don't have this feel the
same pressure to perform their gender in the same way
as that they did pre pandemic. Yeah, absolutely interesting. I
haven't thought about that, but that you're completely correct, And
that's been shifting for a while, I mean in the

(21:53):
workplace and especially for you know, I mean, we're at
least we're hoping that it's been shifting for a while,
but it's not shift thing fast enough. But yeah, that's
so interesting. Was there a moment for you when you
just completely said, like, f this, I don't care about
what people think. I don't care about people's judgments. Like,

(22:15):
was there a defining moment for you where like you
were you just said, I I am ready to fully
express myself in this world as a totality of who
I am. No, And I'll explain why because people ask
me about confidence all the time, and they asked me specifically,

(22:37):
how are you so confident? And how can I be confident?
Like you are seeing that to be oneself when you're
someone like me who is usually or who gets a
lot of hate coming at them, shall we say in
the world to be someone like me? That that rings
as confidence for people, and I usually people. That's not

(23:00):
how I view it. What you're looking at or what
you see in me is radical complete self kindness, self acceptance.
It is a skill that I learned to do that
I went away to a monastery to do. But that's

(23:21):
what you're viewing, and so it's much more like accepting
that I care what other people think of me sometimes,
do you know what I mean? What other people say
does affect me, and that I'm a sensitive person and
that I choose to walk the world with an open
heart and that gets me hurt sometimes. Accepting all of

(23:45):
that helps me to basically walk into any situation I
know that I will love myself at the end of
that situation. That's really profound. No, it is, someone said
to me the other day, because I was pressing that
I've been I've been experiencing a lot of joy, and
you know, joy is something that's I think a lot

(24:06):
of us are afraid of because we're also afraid to
lose it. The therapist that I was talking to you
was saying, joy is the state. I was also talking
about longing because when I fall out of joy quote
unquote fall out of joy, I think I've lost something somehow,
and so I feel like that there's sadness there. And
he was saying that sadness is usually when we lose something.
There's the difference between sadness and longing and recognizing that longing.

(24:32):
Oh yes, to me, it always feels like a losing myself. Yes, absolutely,
when I'm feeling most lonely, sad, longing, it's really that
I've I've somehow lost the connection with you know, you
can say it in a lot of poetic ways. My heart,

(24:52):
my spirit, feeling like it's okay to be me, you know,
stuff stuff like that. That's what I think of. I
totally agree, because that's exactly what I came to. I
was like, I feel like I'm longing for self. I'm
longing for that. I'm longing for that. You're little Lily,
the little Jeffrey, like you're longing for that, that innocence,

(25:13):
because that innocence is is what is so joyous. I
just pictured our inner children being friends and playing with
each other very cute. We can do that now and
we're like, yeah, you talk about you know, I mean
I I see the hatred that comes your way. And

(25:36):
I've experienced plenty of that myself also on social media,
and it took me a while to really not soak
that in. I've learned a lot from it, and I've
learned also a lot of grace toward other humans from
it and to see view it as the hurt you

(25:59):
know that that it's going on inside of people. I
would have been some of your or what is one
of the biggest lessons that you've learned from witnessing the
hate that comes your way. I've actually recently freed myself
up a little bit from pondering what's going on for
the hater in the sense that they clearly have something

(26:20):
going on and that's probably to deal with. And you know,
as a naturally empathetic person, I really easily go there too.
You know, they were they weren't treated well in their childhood,
and they obviously treat themselves the way that they are
treating me, and you know, all of all of the

(26:42):
stuff to give them context, and I always like to
remind myself to give myself all of that context immediately.
When I start doing that and give myself kindness, love
and thank myself for not being a hateful person and

(27:02):
for living with all the love that I can and
being committed to that, that makes Yeah, that's so true.
You're right. As an empathetic person, it's so easy to
go in that direction and grant the grace outwardly and
and maybe it's not instead of but also also making

(27:23):
sure that you are the one that you're granting that
grace to first. Yeah, And I actually find if I
do that first, it's much easier to give it to
other people. It's a much easier process if I am
filled with grace already to just let that flow out
of me. Yeah, when you're triggered, because ultimately we are

(27:44):
you know, we can't move will be Um, We're human, right,
So no matter how much grace and love, like, there's
always a trigger. Could you narrow it down? Triggered in
what triggered and triggered by a right exactly life? Triggered
when when you see these hateful comments that come in
if you are triggered by that, um, Because I know

(28:08):
so many people on social media no matter if you're
you are me, it's just people in general, Um, experience
so much hate. What is where's the first place that
you go when you're triggered to help soothe or to
kind of meet that trigger when it's when it's happening. Well, um,

(28:29):
that's that's like that is a multifold answer. So I'm
on my phone, a comment comes in. Let's say it's
a comment from a young man and it's a vomit emoji,
which happens a lot, right, So I do a video
pouring out my heart and telling people to love themselves
and how they're worthy of love and stuff like that,

(28:51):
and then, yeah, a vomit emoji. The first place that
I go is I love you, Jeffrey, thank you for
doing what you do. The video is really beautiful. I'm
glad you put it out there. Thank you for who
you are. And I'm literally talking to myself telling myself love,

(29:13):
giving myself love and kindness because to me, like top
on the list, I have to make sure that that
happens pretty constantly throughout throughout all of my days, but
especially when something like that happens. And then the sort
of multilayer to the responses well, is there an action
then that needs to happen after that. That's like blocking

(29:35):
the person deleting the comment. And I just check in
with with myself and say, what do we want to
have happened here, and then I execute like that you have.
The block button is the best thing in the world.
It really is. It's just so fantastic. I'm so glad
it was created. No, I'm a huge advocate of actually
people blocking for no reason at all. Just block if

(29:59):
you feel you know, if you feel like maybe you
should go for it. You know, you don't have to
have a million excuses or a reason or you know,
it's your page. You get to decide. The parameter is
just go for it. Yeah, that's so true. It's so
an important boundary. And to not feel to not feel
guilty about it. I know that that's something in the

(30:20):
very beginning, like I would feel so guilty about like
blocking someone, and of course they would come back with
like you know and some other um to create another
account and come back and start brading you in another way,
and I would have this like existential guilt about it.
And you're right, it's it's a boundary that is super important.
You said, something about boundaries recently that hit home with me.

(30:44):
I would love for you to share that because I
think that's appropriate in for life in general. I want
to wait, I have to turn the tables first, because
I would like to use the word star. You were
a star. You are a star, but when you were
a kid, you were a star? Do you are you
comfortable with that work? Yeah? I mean yeah, that's interesting. Yeah,

(31:06):
and so I am sure that you're bound well not
sure what I project onto that situation, and I want
your confirmation is your boundaries were toast. They were absolutely gone.
They were on a global scale. Everybody had access to
you and needed to all the time. And so the

(31:27):
concept of setting a boundary and keeping to it, and
you know, all the stuff we talked about in self
care is just you have no concept of it at all,
I would guess, right, No, No, you're you're very correct
about that, and it's still a new one for me
at times. Right. So that's what I wanted to ask
you about, is like, how have you begun to build
into your your own rituals around caring for yourself this

(31:52):
this concept of having boundaries period Yeah, well exactly period um.
I think for me ng reclaiming going back to inner
child work again. And by the way, I've done so
much work in the past, like almost ten years, I
guess it's been but yeah, good times. Um, the inner
child piece has been something that I've so like touched

(32:14):
upon and then pushed away and touched upon and then
pushed away. And it's I'm like, and I'm actually in
the thick of it right now, and it's been so good.
I think I was in uh therapy session the other
day and my my therapist said, you would do anything
for leally, and it like hit home so deeply that
I started I got cry. Now, I started bawling because

(32:37):
I'm like, you're right, like that is ultimately who I'm
doing it for. And so ever since then, boundaries have
been a lot easier, simple as that, and so and
it's taken me ten years to figure that shut out. Well,
I mean, it's do you do realize that people live
their whole lives and never figured that shut out? So

(33:01):
I don't know, I don't know that there's a timeline
you're supposed to figure it out. Um, but thank goodness
for her, right, Thank goodness that she could be there
to inspire that realization and inspire you to put in
the work which is paying off. Yeah. Absolutely so. To me,

(33:22):
I think the video you're talking about is I've begun
to look at boundaries as a choice I'm making now
that makes my life more pleasant, which I love because
it's so simple. Yeah, so simple, and you don't have
to like do a lot of inner thinking machinations, making
up excuses, getting your ducks in a row before you've

(33:44):
set the boundary, etcetera, etcetera. And the other thing I
really love about it and the reason it came to
me in sort of a you know, flash of of
love and kindness, was it puts the focus on me.
The boundaries. For me, we sometimes are like I'm setting
a boundary to teach that personal lesson, to make sure

(34:05):
this abusive person is out of my life and I
have to be strong. And to me, I was just like,
that is such a bad time. I don't like boundaries
when they're like that. But if it's just like, oh,
my life will be more pleasant if I say I'm
not going to do this project right now, thank you
for the offer. You know, it's just as simple as that.

(34:27):
Sometimes boundaries, to me, it very seems like um, like
this inner bully that has to like set like a
very strict rule. And when you said that, I was
there was just so much air around it. It was like, Oh,
it feels like I can breathe within that boundary, like
I'm making this choice for myself. And that was just

(34:48):
really really clear and helped me clarify what boundaries are
for myself. I love that, and I love the fact
that you know what you helped me to see, just
because you said that so eloquently, when you're a kid,
if you were going to put up boundaries. Not every

(35:12):
household is like this, but I'm just sensing that yours
and mine perhaps where our lives were a bit like this.
If we were going to set up boundaries when we
were a kid, it would have taken that kind of
gargantuan bullying, pressing through aggressive energy to make it happen.

(35:33):
But we sometimes forget we're not living our childhood anymore.
We're not six years old anymore. We have some agency here,
and we have some choice and learning how to gracefully
say no or to set up a boundary. You know,
you don't even have to tell the other person to

(35:54):
just say, you know, I'm going to purposefully limit my
time with so and so because that's it. Yes, that's
what I'm into. It's going to make my life more pleasant. Yes,
I think that's also coming from both of us. I
think there has to be some sense of self love

(36:14):
and appreciation of self in order to to come from
boundaries or come look at boundaries in that way, because
I don't know, it's taken me a long time to
be like, oh, I want to make my life pleasant
in this moment, like that's okay to do, because but
usually it's been about making everyone else's life as easy
as possible. And of course, yeah, I mean people pleasing.

(36:37):
That's the way. That's that was the way for so long. Well,
not to over analyze, but you did it on a
global scale. Yeah, yes, talk about needing to please people.
I mean it was your I'm guessing it was your
entire existence and not just your caregivers, but really every

(36:58):
single person you came in contact with, which must have
been fun to sort through with your therapist's time. You
know you can. I know, I'm so sorry to interrupt,
but you just made me so enthusiastic. Thank you for
talking about it. Thank you. It's so powerful. And important

(37:24):
for people people I don't know, I can't speak for
all people. For me, when I listened to your to
your episodes and when you talk, especially this format, you're
just so open and not filtered. But it's more than that.
It's like you're not afraid to let it hang out,

(37:46):
to talk about the things you're working on, because it's
okay to be working on stuff. Yeah. You know, you
talk about freedom like you found your freedom and in
a certain way, and I found my free That's how
I've found my freedom is in this in this way
of allowing allowing just all of the complexities of my

(38:10):
own human experience to just be at the forefront. And
that's can be really scary, and it's also very liberate.
It's all the things. It's all the things, right, I mean,
I'm sure that you have experienced you and your experience
with your own freedom has been very complex, and I

(38:32):
think that's what's so beautiful for all of us is
the complexities are the complexities of the story, right, I Mean,
that's that's where we connect. I like to think of
myself as a walking metaphor. I'm pretty close to the surface,
and I think people can see right away what I

(38:53):
was told was wrong with me when I was a kid,
and how I've chosen to embrace that and love that
and expressed that and put on rainbow eye shadow come
and talk to you. People at home can imagine. It's
so good, you know, people can see what I was

(39:16):
told was wrong with me and how I've embraced that.
And I hope, I always deeply hope that they take
that with them, that they were told there's something's wrong
with them. Mm hmm. And it's actually your superpower. Your
door knob on the door marked freedom is that thing

(39:38):
you were told it's wrong with you? Absolutely? Where do
you do? You live in New York in Los Angeles?
You do? I was a New Yorker for a long
long time. But I'm very good. Yeah, you're close by.
I love it. First off, I mean you you were
raised Christian and I was. I mean I completely relate.

(40:00):
I was raised Southern Baptist and completely ran the opposite
direction at some point and found my own version of
spirituality and kind of very much appreciate the Christian teachings
in my own way. Now, the stuff that Jesus said,
for example, yes, really good stuff. He was onto something,

(40:25):
but I also, you know, have studied a bit of Buddhism,
and like I said, I've kind of found my own
way with my own spirituality. When did Buddhism enter your world?
And how did that? How did that come about? Well?
I was in a I was in a bookstore in Philadelphia.

(40:45):
It was a spiritual bookstore. So they had all kinds
of like crystals and dream catchers and and stuff, posters
with the Chakras on them, right, And I was just
fascinated because I was a Christian kid and I had
just gone away to college and I was this place.
I was just magnetized by this and how different it

(41:06):
was than what I was brought up in. And I
walked in and from across the bookstore, I saw a
book called there Is Nothing Wrong with You. That's what
the cover said, and my mind started going, OLP, really know,
this is what's wrong with you? And this and this
and this and you're horrible in this way and this

(41:27):
and this and this. So my mind was doing that,
and my heart and my feet were already moving towards
the book, crossing across the bookstore, and I picked it
up and it was written by a woman who ran
a zen Buddhist monastery. I would eventually go on retreats,
go to workshops, go live at the monastery for a while,

(41:49):
and find a whole new rebirth. You know, it's interesting
that that came out of my mouth because I don't
usually talk about it like that, But I think so
many folks, and I don't know if you can relate
to this, but so many LGBTQ folks anyway throw the
baby of spirituality out with the bathwater of how we
were treated in religion, and so religion and spirituality are

(42:13):
kind of gloamed together and they just decide, you know,
they were told so often Jesus doesn't love you, and
and you're you're horrible, You're not going to heaven and
stuff like that, that they just throw wild spirituality as well,
and so it is sort of like a a reclaiming,
a rediscovering of of that. At least it was for me. Yeah,
I can completely relate to that, And especially having an

(42:36):
uncle that was gay and seeing the way he was
treated by everyone who claimed to be so Christian. It
really was such a bitter taste in my mouth. I
remember having really intense arguments with my mom very early
on like this doesn't make sense, and why would your
God like not include everyone? And you know, like how

(42:57):
old were you saying these things? Oh? Six seven six seven?
Early on, I was just so confused. I'm like, why
are people? Why is everyone not included? And why are
we all not children of God? And you're right that
during the baby out with bathwater is completely my experience

(43:18):
and has been for a long time, and having to
really find my own way back there, it's been a
beautiful journey to reclaim that for myself because, you know,
as spiritual beings, like when we're disconnected once again, little
lily innocence like this our own spirituality, when we're disconnected

(43:40):
from that piece of us, like the loneliness, you know,
the longing is so intense, and it's sad that religion
organized religion and in its lowest forms, I guess, has
the ability to do that. All right on that heavy

(44:01):
and holy, holy human note. Oh, we're going to take
a quick break, but we'll be right back with more.
Jeffrey Marsh, Welcome back, Laves. Jeffrey and I were just
talking about the very complicated ways religion can be used
to divide us from one another and ourselves. It's so

(44:27):
like a lot of different things, it can be used
for separation and for judgment and for cruelty. And to me,
you've made me think of like when I was a kid,
So I was raised Lutheran h And when I was
a kid, not just like people like me or people
throughout the world were excluded. It's like we're Lutherans and

(44:49):
we're right and Meptists are wrong completely, do you know
what I mean? It's like, how what there's like a
hair's distance between us and you're really deciding who God
likes more than someone else. Yeah, And I love the
connection you made that this sort of when I'm feeling lonely,

(45:11):
I have a distance from myself. But I think some
people would call that when I'm feeling lonely, I have
a distance from God, which is self. And I feel
like that doesn't you know there was a time when
I was very rebellious in my teen years when that's

(45:32):
a phrase like that would have been very upsetting and
triggering because it's like, if you're God, you tell me
that I'm going to help blah blah blah. But now
it's like that is beautiful and poetic to me and
makes a lot of sense absolutely, I mean, because now,
I mean the way I view things is that God
exists within us. So when I say I have a

(45:55):
disconnection from self, its meaning God. And for me, I
have a disconnection from spirit and energy and God and
whatever a million different words we want to call it,
but that's ultimately my longing is to be connected with
the true, purest, innocent piece of myself. Yeah. And how

(46:15):
interesting that so many people get separated from themselves and
use God as an excuse to do that. Yeah, when
they're trying to prove who God likes and doesn't like,
and you know, all of that stuff must. I don't
know how it feels, but it seems like a lonely
kind of existence to me. And so Buddhism, for you

(46:38):
has I mean, I feel like for me to I
the principles of Buddhism have I think for that for me,
that was kind of like how I started to to
form my own spiritual path. They made so much more
grounded sense. Um of dogs are in here and now

(47:01):
they're like howling um, But yeah they no, don't apologize. Yes,
they're like we like Buddhism also do I mean you
make a joke, But dogs are actually really perfect examples
of being in the moment. Yes, very true. M hmm.

(47:22):
I just love watching critters of all kinds, but dogs
especially are really just enthusiastically now, yes, and being in
the moment has been such a training. It's a daily
training of little moments of coming back to self and
how I'm feeling and my I mean, honestly, you're right.

(47:43):
My dog teaches me that all the time, and that's
one way I actually connect with the moment is by
connecting with her fully, like fully fully, So yes, they are.
They're such beautiful teachers. Do you have animals? We do, not,
pandemic aside, my partner and I like to go on
trips and so we really didn't you know, we don't

(48:06):
know if we have some plants, and that's as far
as our family is going right now. So very good.
Do you ask me where I am, and I'm in
l A. And so it's actually really lovely to have
plants in l A because there's they like it here
so they can live. Eddie and I got a plant
at the beginning of the whole pandemic, and it's a

(48:27):
fiddle fern. We actually have kept it alive. Most people
kill it. So I'm very proud of our plants. Thank you.
And there. I don't know if you ever have ever
eaten them, but they're delicious. Really, I'm sure. I'm sure
you feel attached to the plant in your house, so
don't chop that one apart. But yeah, you can get

(48:49):
them at some supermarkets and stuff too. Yeah, I did
not know that. I have to go google. That interesting.
Very cool. You got married, right, Yes, I did. That's
so cool. And you know what's lovely about it is
both of us grew up thinking we never would because

(49:11):
we're queer people, and we just sort of felt like
outside that institution the whole time growing up. And eventually
it became legal, obviously for us to be married. And
this was back when I was living in New York.
In New York, there is no place on the marriage
license for gender at all, So nobody who gets married

(49:35):
there is asked what their gender identity is and it's
not part of the form or signing up or anything
like that. Is that a new Is that a new thing? Yeah? Okay,
that's just a couple of years old, that one. But also, um,
the governor at the time decided to just make it
Governor Cuomo decided to just say, hey, you can get

(49:56):
married on zoom. Just get your stuff together and and
get inefficient and go into the same Zoom room and
you're done. You did it, And we knew that we
didn't want to wait any longer, mm hmm. And we
knew so we were in the same room, same physical address,

(50:19):
our apartment, and we knew that we that we wanted
to have connection in the midst of such great loneliness
around the world. So, yeah, we got married. Congratulations, that's
so beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I feel like they give
so many people hope, you know, for people like you

(50:40):
just said you never thought both of you never thought
that that would be something that was a part of
your journey. And I think that sharing doing that and
also sharing that piece of you has really given a
lot of people. Can I tell you a teeny tiny
story about that, please. You were together for ten years.

(51:01):
My partner and I we've been together now forever ten years.
And when we first met, I hated his guts and
that's because he was kind, so I were I. I
realized all this later, So I had dated dated a
series of jerks and hello, like we can talk about
my childhood and my dad and all that stuff, right,

(51:23):
But I just learned that to be in relationship with
people was for them to not treat you very well.
Mm hm. And so I had gone on a retreat
with the monastery and I came back from the retreat
and I made a list of ten things that would
be healthy for me to have in a partner. And
I said to the universe, Okay, if this person comes

(51:46):
into my life, they get three dates, no matter what.
And my partner, his name is Jeff for Jeff and Jeffrey.
Jeff came into my life through okay Cupid and it
was date one. I hate his guy us day to
hate his guts, but I realized that he had all
ten things and they, I mean there were things that

(52:09):
I just in a centered place wrote down, like appreciates
my art that I do, is financially stable, he loves
to do like exercise, e things and we could do
that together. Right. So it's just a less of ten
things like that. And he was the only person I
dated who had all ten things. And so I gave

(52:30):
him a third date even though I didn't want to.
And um, here we are, you know, a decade or
so later that puts a new spin on ten ten
things I hate about you, but I love it so beautiful.
You talk about so many different things in your beautiful

(52:50):
little videos that I would love to just throw out
a few words and see, like what first comes to mind? Sure,
perfection It has two meanings, So it is true at
the same time that you do not need to be
perfect and you are perfect already. Both both of those

(53:11):
are true and depends on your definition of perfection, right,
which is ever evolving? Right? I mean we absolutely throughout
your lifetime, yes, and I hope seeing your inherent perfection
is where you're where you're evolving too, right, Ultimately that's
where we land. Purpose. Oh, people love to hate themselves

(53:34):
so much about needing to have a purpose in life.
I mean, I think it's really drilled into us and
not realizing that your quote unquote purpose in life could be, oh,
having fun, enjoying your dog having a snack. Right, thank
you for that beautiful reminder, by the way, to enjoy
your dogs. Just just that that can be. This is

(53:58):
c This is the lead. Lead. This is a play
piece for me. That's like coming back the time like
that can just be simple things like that can be
your purpose for the day. Doesn't have to be I
don't have to go win Grammys and make albums and
do things I mean, which those are also beautiful purposes.
But my dog and my breath and my my joy,

(54:19):
my my sense of being can just be. I can
just be as my purpose. It's not what. It's how.
So you could to me, you could win a Grammy
and hate your guts. I'm sure there are people who
do it. Hate your own guts, right judge it, say,

(54:41):
oh my god, that's the song was absolutely terrible. And
I know that you know, and just just hate the process,
hate yourself, hate life while you're winning a Grammy. Or
you can win a Grammy and love yourself, be kind
to yourself, be up on stage age about to say
your speech and say I love you so much, thank

(55:04):
you for who you are to yourself. Right, So it's
not the what that we're doing petting your dog? Yes,
how do we want to be in this life? M
This is precious. Let's not spend it being so hateful
to ourselves. I love Thank you for the reminder. Trauma. Boy,

(55:24):
we all have I don't know about all um. A
lot of us have a lot of it, don't we Yes,
And to me, a big part of healing it, I
think is realizing it's not your fault. That's what I
carried around for years, and I think a lot of
people carry around us just feeling like like a real

(55:46):
deep down kind of hidden you would never say it necessarily,
but just really feeling like you deserved it. Yeah, for sure.
Something that's been really interesting with trauma for me recently
is learning it, learning what's they're knowing what exists, but
also starting to learn and create who I am without it,

(56:10):
to not have to hang onto it as the defining
part of my story. Oh I'm right there with you,
and feeling like it well goes in stages. When I
first started healing, I needed to become a little obsessed
with it, and I was completely read every book about
trauma and how it works, and and every podcast and

(56:32):
let me, you know, talk about it and stuff. And
then you sort of, I don't know if you found this,
but you sort of get to a point where you've
heeled enough where you start to not needing to transcend
it all the time and you can sort of get
on with your living your life and again, petting your
dog and yes, enjoying winning Grammys and such complete some

(56:55):
of us do that last one. Freedom. I know we've
hit on this a bit, but I just love for
you to express a little bit more what that means
to you. To me, freedom is enthusiastic, strong, ever present,
self compassionate, beautiful. That's that's what makes you free. How

(57:20):
would we phrase it? You know you have your own back? Yes,
put it colloquially. Absolutely. I always ask. I'm a huge
music lover, obviously, and I'm always always interesting. I haven't
heard very good. Thank you. Yeah, I would love to
know what your holy five are? Share please? Um, I'm weird.

(57:46):
So that's your caveat in the meginning, but I'm going
to go absolutely like deep cuts. So number five is
Bette Midler singing in the Mood and on her self

(58:07):
titled album, and I just love it. That song helped
me survive. I would go in the bar and just
pretend like I was as cool as her and just
sing my sing my heart out on the farm, and
that's number five. Number four would be from a movie

(58:30):
called Victor Victoria. There's a song called the Jazz Hot.
Julie Andrews sings it and in the movie If anybody
knows that she is a woman, an opera singer who
can't get a job as an opera singer, so gets
a job as a drag queen. She pretends to be

(58:50):
a man who then goes and gets a job to
be a dry queen. Oh baby will you baby Jazz?
And I was like all this fun gender play and
beauty and stuff like that. So another person I really
admired when I was a kid was b Arthur and

(59:10):
I would watch The Golden Girls and be Arthur was
a very strong woman and embodied a lot of masculinity
and I was really inspired by her kind of non
binary nature. And anyway, she put out an album and
she did a song called Pirate Jenny, which is a
Curt Vile song from the thirties, and it's about a

(59:34):
woman who it's from three Penny Opera and it's about
a woman who becomes a pirate queen. Everyone looks down
on her and she ends up becoming this leader of
the pirates. Then that night there's a bang in the
night and you yellows that get an up a row.

(59:55):
So if anyone psychoanalyzing my child and here we go,
you're getting all you're go all of it today. It
all comes out through music, I have to say it does.
It absolutely does. And so to round out these, number
two is a song called I Only Know What's the

(01:00:16):
Best Thing for You, and that is an Irving Berlin
song from a musical called Call Me Madam. Ethel Merman
was in it. And if you know anything about ethel Merman,
she says loud. Her voice is awesome. Her voice is awesome,
and it is incredibly loud, and she always sings at
that same loudness except this one song you could barely

(01:00:41):
hear her. And there's a movie. You can't really get
the movie, but it's on YouTube. You can just look
it up. It's not on any of the streamers, but
the full thing is on YouTube. Just sitting there she
sings so soft and so tender, which she never did,
so it just breaks your heart because it's so intimate

(01:01:03):
thing for you. And then number one is the song
I wrote for my own wedding at the risk of
being completely full of myself, which I am completely full of,

(01:01:24):
So I I wrote a song called my Heart Is
with You for my parton Jeff. That's so beautiful. It's
one of my favorites and I've posted about it, and
there you are. Would would you be? Would you hate me? Yes? Please?
I love you? You want me to say? Um. The

(01:01:48):
chorus goes, my heart is with you in all that
you do. My heart is with you in the big
and small times. My heart is with you. It's always
been true. You're dancing. My heart is with you for

(01:02:12):
now and all talk. Oh I love it. You have
such a beautiful voice. Thank you. I mean, I write
songs kind of like Mr Rogers did, right, I just
I just want to pour my heart out. I love
that I wrote. I wrote a song for my husband too,
for our our wedding. And yeah, so that's I don't

(01:02:35):
know that story. Yeah I'm gonna sing for me. Oh
my gosh, how does that go? Yeah? I love doesn't
nex guise you too far, It doesn't make any sinsettle,
makes you see what you never so how much too

(01:03:00):
hug and who it's called? How much a heart can hold? So? Yeah,
I love that we just shared those beautiful songs that
we wrote for our lovers. There goes my mask, era
down my face. Oh I so adore you. Thank you
for sharing who you are and you just so beautiful,

(01:03:23):
so beautiful, completely magical. I mean I I feel lucky
to be You know, people like me there are ten
twenty years ago we wouldn't be part of that. We
wouldn't be included, right, We were shunned. And including someone
like me is very important. And it says something about

(01:03:43):
you that you did it. Oh my god, You're always okay,
You're always included in the world. In my from my perspective,
you are. In addition to that, Thank you for being
magical yourself. Thank you sharing your heart. Thank you. I
hope we get to meet soon. I would love to
actually yes, please, thank you so much. Yes. Bye, And that,

(01:04:13):
my friends, brings this very special episode of Holy Human
to a close. I hope you have enjoyed your time
with Jeffrey as much as I did. And please let
me know your thoughts in the comments wherever you're listening,
and share this with anyone who could use a little
more self love and acceptance in their lives too. On
our next Holy Human, I'll be joined by one of

(01:04:35):
the world's leading experts on optimizing human performance. Best selling authors,
Stephen Cottler, will be with me to share the surprising
science behind finding your own personal flow and potential. It
was a truly fascinating conversation. I cannot wait for you
all to hear it. So I'll see you then, or
I'll hear you'll hear me then. I don't know, but

(01:04:57):
I'll we'll feel each other then. O. Holy Human with
Me Leanne Rhymes is a production of I Heart Radio.
You'll find Holy Human with Lianne Rhymes on the I
Heart app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get the podcasts
that matter most to you.