September 13, 2021 • 52 mins
LeAnn is joined by her close friend Kate Horsman, an Integrative Healer with a unique holistic approach to utilizing nutrition, breathwork and energy work to navigate trauma and attain more inner peace.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
Heart Radio. Welcome everyone to this special episode of Holy Human.
You know this episode might feel like grabbing a cup
of tea with a good friend, because that is how
I always feel when I connect with the warm, wise
(00:22):
and beautiful Kate Horsemen. In addition to being an integrative
nutritionist and healer specializing in mind, body, and soul wellness,
Kate is also a very close friend and I am
so happy she's joining us today on Holy Human. Yeah Yeah,
(01:04):
I'm doing okay. Yeah. Do you feel that today too?
You're like, I'm doing all right. By the way, I'm
just gonna let everyone know this will be a completely
probably different vibe than most of the podcast because Kate
is a dear friend of mine and I just thought
we would see where this takes us. I have questions,
but just from that, I'm doing okay. Um. It's been
(01:25):
really interesting because I'm about to go out and start
performing on Friday. I've been sitting here before our conversation
in complete terror. I mean, I haven't not been on
stage and like my whole life basically, but like for
sixteen months like this and a stretch of time and
it's been really heavy. I think a lot of people
might be able to relate to that because we've all
(01:46):
been kind of bundled up in our cozy little world
for so long, and there's a lot of fear coming
up for a lot of people at this moment. Well,
I was wondering, and you know, maybe this little present itself.
But part of that fear is that I am fundamentally
different now and I've gone through this period of growth
and change, some of what I probably didn't want to
(02:07):
go through, some of what I've grieved, And so now,
how how does this person integrate into those other roles? Yeah?
How do we how do we stay authentic to where
we are in this place? Part of the growth for
me right now is, you know, as a performer, I
can go on stage and literally like I can cut
(02:29):
myself off from myself onto of all the fear and
all the things and still walk on stage and do
what I need to do. And right now is giving
me this opportunity to to include all of me and
the fear and and at all. And I think, you know,
that's been such a huge part of my practice, as
to include all of myself. I feel like I'm doing
(02:51):
myself such an injustice if I don't take this moment
to include all of me. And I think that's actually
why I'm talking about this right now, because I was
frozen and I felt like I have to start here
because I feel like I have to include all of
myself in this conversation, and that was just something I
wanted to name. Yeah, I'm so glad that you mean that.
(03:12):
I mean that gives people permission to to address it
and in claim it in themselves, right, I mean, it
helps me so everyone. This is my beautiful friend, Kate Horseman.
Kate and I met through a friend of ours, a
dear friend, Kylie, and Kylie thought that we shouldn't meet,
(03:34):
and but there are very few people that I let
into my world intimately and so quickly, and You've been
one of those people. And I'm so grateful for you
who had talent really young and started in a profession
and had that talent cultivated very young. And it's just
not something that I've run into very often, and so
(03:57):
you and I've connected in a way that it is unique,
and I'm so so grateful, and I would love for
people to know a bit of your back story of
what I'm speaking of because you were you are a
prima ballerina right from the time where yeah, well yeah,
I mean the the end wasn't as graceful as as that,
as as being as being a prima ballerina for certain,
(04:19):
but yes, and I just want to named too that
one of the things that I've noticed in our conversations
is that I feel less alone, and that there's so
many parts of me, especially the young parts of me,
that I haven't allowed I haven't been able to swim
(04:40):
in that like pool of my heart space with and
I just feel so grateful that we've been able to
connect in that way. And at many points I think
I've said, you know, I just wish me, I wish
we could have known each other then, I know, but
here we are. Yeah. So yeah. I entered into dance
and ballet very very very young. I was three years
(05:01):
old when I started. Presumably I had a passion and
an interest for it, so I don't I don't really recall.
I know that that must have been the case, but
pretty early on when I started training, there was a
talent that was noticed um and that started to cultivate.
I would say that prior to age nine, that life
(05:26):
looked a little bit more leisurely, you know, it looked
like more recreational dance and play. But by the time
I reached nine, there was this shift when I was
scouted by the National Ballet School of Canada and ultimately
then went to train with them for a summer um.
I was so terribly homesick because at that point in
(05:49):
training they had some different philosophies about how to hone
these skills. And you're in a dorm and you don't
have a phone. I think they don't like, you're allowed
to write home the first week. The second week, I
think you're allowed to phone home. And then yeah, yeah,
(06:09):
that's intense. Yeah. So there were these sort of behavioral
modification things that happened, and I was a child that
actually had a really hard time communicating and expressing my feelings,
and I felt a lot like my God, I actually
I have not realized up until this year how much
(06:29):
I feel. And I'm giving myself that permission. Yeah, I
completely understand that, and that's so interesting, the feeling piece
of it. I am Eddie and I did a wilderness
survival training. It was two days, forty hours, was sixteen
hour training and it was so intense that I had
(06:52):
to walk out of the room a couple of times
and meditate and breathe because we were talking about blood
and broken bones and like all these different scenarios would
put you in And it was good for me because
I was like, Okay, if I have to deal with this,
you know, in all my sensitivities, I'm gonna have to.
I'm gonna have to know what to do. But I
realized over those two days how much I feel. Not
(07:15):
that I didn't know, but I really know now. And
it's taken like all this time, you know, my whole
life basically to come up against Oh wow, I'm really
that sensitive. Yeah, and not giving ourselves the permission or
you know, I'm sure we each individually and probably together
and collectively have you know, these these reasons why, but
(07:37):
we've had to distance ourselves from those feelings. And I
actually think during the pandemic there's been this interesting opportunity
to get a little more still, examine a little bit more,
and deepened into that permission. I think it's I think
it's an invitation. I don't think necessarily everyone chooses to
take that invitation. But I think I'm finally at a
(07:59):
place where I know I'm getting to know that I
have the capacity to be with those feelings, I know
what to do with those feelings, and when I don't,
then then what is there to discover too? I would
say that those feelings of being so young and so
lonely really were a catalyst to really turn inwards, but
(08:24):
not in a way that was introspective, in a way
that was really self destructive and self self abandoning. And
that's when I would say there was some energies that
play within me that started started to take a turn
or dance didn't feel necessarily like the safest or the
healthiest thing. So I've changed some of my tune on that,
(08:44):
which maybe we'll get to. Yeah, yeah, how has that
changed for you? Well? I think one of the stories
that I had to claim, and it's not that it
wasn't an accurate one, but was that dance could be
something that was to blame within this, within this sort
(09:07):
of collapse and breakdown of what I experienced and recently
recently being my last I guess if I were ten
years being in a more embodied version of myself claiming
pieces of myself back, I realized that probably was absolute
blessing that I had dance and that I had that
(09:33):
sense of focus, because it was actually probably one of
the only ways that I could express all the chaos
that was going on in my life. What I couldn't
speak of the things that I've been through, the things
that I was experiencing. They had a conduit through movement,
and I actually now note that some of the years,
(09:55):
you know, I'm jumping ahead of it, but where I
was really in my struggle and in disorder, they were
unsupported by the fact that I didn't move. Oh, so
like I had to reject it, and I think probably
at that moment in time that was was the place
where I could go, where like the rejection of that
movement was what my psyche needed in order to start
(10:17):
to heal. But at the same time, I didn't have
still the capacity or just the internal capacity to explore
my feelings, and dance allowed me to have that. So yeah,
I think it's just really interesting to to look at
the layers of it. And I still feel like I'm
entering into different relationships with it, and and and spoiler alert,
(10:40):
like I feel like I feel like I need to
dance again in some capacity just just for myself. Yeah,
I mean I think that our soul mine has always
been my singing voice years has been movement. You know,
our soul wants to speak and in what way? What's
the catalyst? You know, like what is and that could
(11:01):
be anything. It doesn't have to be art, like people's
soul wants to speak through through anything. But I think
the interesting piece you know when you talk about dance
being joyful and playful, right, and music for me was
was joyful and playful, and then it became a job
and we get lost in so many things, the perfectionism
(11:24):
of things, the expectations of others upon you know, that
which we're sharing our soul, and it can become soul less.
Something that was once the catalyst for expression can become
just another thing we do. Yeah, it's like it's like
you disconnect from yourself. And again I'm curious how maybe
(11:48):
being in a more embodied version of myself have claimed
some of those pieces back. But I still think, I
still think that there's more because that expression got stunted.
M How old were you when you started to experience
because you you experienced in or X from a fairly
early age. Yet yeah, I was probably twelve years old
(12:09):
when I was actively in my eating disorder. But I
would say that, you know, during the years of maybe not,
but like here here's me like pushing it under the ruck.
I actively had an eating disorder and I actively continued
to train and dance, and there was you know, no no,
no problem with no awareness. Right, the awareness is internally.
(12:30):
I think there was a lot of awareness externally, um,
but it was acceptable. So I think by the age
of like twelve, thirteen fourteen, it was starting to take
on that energy of being a career where I felt
like I was more becoming an expectation or a commodity.
(12:53):
So we'll go back and forth with training either in
Toronto or Winnipeg. And then my goal was ultimately York
and I started going to e BT and school. American
Ballet was like my dream school because I wanted to
be a dance with New York City Ballet. I'm kind
of fast forwarding here, but those were the moments where
they should have been like the most joy filled, you know,
(13:15):
expression on my dance. I was at my absolute peak
in my in my physical body um or in my expression.
I should say my physical body was rapidly declining. But
I know that I seemed probably like a ghost on stage.
I remember someone coming up to me, and I actually
felt it felt so horrendous. They said, you just don't
(13:37):
you don't use there's nothing to your face anymore, you
don't smile, you don't And I thought, like, you're actually
not seeing like what what I'm going through. I'm just
another another version of a like a commodity that you're expecting.
So you're not only dismissing the fact that I'm clearly struggling,
but there's still this expectation on what it's supposed to
(13:58):
look like. Yeah, it's still kind of remarkable to me.
How how that all happened? I think again, I just
felt so limited in my possibilities. I was so deep
and and despondent in my shame that I didn't feel
like there were many choices. And ultimately, when the prospect
was to be with New York City Ballet, they told
(14:21):
me that I would have to gain weight in order
to stay and to make it in the company. And
I walked away, Old, are you then eighteen? And so
fast forward? Not to fast forward from that, but to
the work that you do now? How would you describe
the work that you do. I think the closest way
that I can describe it is that I work as
(14:43):
an integrative healing practitioner. I use different modalities that I
weave together. I want to create a framework basket that
supports and contains, and so that has meant for me
continuing my education as a counselor the building in that
neutral Asian herbalism UM and now energy work because I
(15:04):
think that we've really missed the soul heart even in
like our regular talk therapy. Historically it was meant to
be a soul conversation. But what I experienced and want
to know so many experiences that we extrapolate the soul
from the work. And so my hope is just to
create a holistic opportunity for any individual that comes to
(15:27):
me UM to explore that. And I'm grateful to support
a lot of people that work through their disordered eating
they have a eating disorder or body image um or
any mental health issues. Really, what was the decision like
to step forward into this work for you? Because I
can imagine that it, yes, is healing. It's a lifelong
(15:49):
journey right to heal these parts of ourselves. But I'm
I'm imagining that to help people through disordered eating that
have some of the same traumas that you have, I'm
imagining that be incredibly triggering at times. So I wonder
what was that like, Like, what was that decision like
to step into this work When I went back to
school and I was like, Okay, I think this is
(16:11):
what I'm gonna do. I'm meant to help people. I
didn't practice at all. I didn't like, I did not
step into that work. I didn't step into it until
I went back to school to get for nutrition, until
I went through a period of a relapse. I did
not want to go into this work until I felt
rounded in in the work that I had done, that
there was a solid enough foundation. I certainly think there's
possibility for the triggers to be there, but there's a
(16:33):
certain level of intimacy that I think upholds those boundaries
that are necessary. I think we all want someone to
know that we get it. And I literally never felt
I'm kind of grieving for this, you know, reasonly. I
don't think I ever felt like I had someone that
(16:54):
was like, I get what you're going through. And so
I think that there's an aspect that is just kind
of sacred in being able to have these conversations with
people that know that I've gone through it. Do I
leave my experience at the door? Yeah, but if it
feels helpful to bring that threat in and leave that
into our story, great, it's there. Yeah. The work you
(17:17):
do is I mean, I know just as a friend,
you're incredibly supportive and present. And we just did a
breath work session together not long ago, and it's something
that it's new to you in the way that you've
been um working with people, and it was probably one
of the most supportive things I've ever been through in
that space. And I highly recommend anybody that can book
(17:41):
a session with Gate do. It's just so I think
because of everything you've gone through in life, it's given you,
like you say, the capacity to be with all parts
of people. And there's so much shame. You know, you
brought up shame. There's so much shame around our bodies.
Are body these as women, you know, when I think
(18:01):
of the word shame, it's like the things that come
up are you know, sex, body, food, money, like all
the things. And when you have someone like yourself that
has gone to those dark places within themselves, you know,
are the darker places, and has has held your own
shame in that way. I think it's the capacity that
(18:21):
you have to hold people just in general is so vast.
You give people permission to bring all of those pieces
to the table, and that to me has been the
most welcoming energy to have in my life, because you're right,
there's not a lot of people that go, oh, I
(18:45):
get that. And by the way, all of you is,
all of you is welcome here. Most of us don't
know how to welcome all of ourselves, So how can
we welcome all of the rest of someone else, you know?
And that's the thing I was just gonna say. I
think the reason why that's within some of my values
is because that's what I want m I want to
be able to be a fullest expression of me and
(19:09):
for someone not to run away. But that's what we fear.
We fear that like when we go to pieces, that
when stuff is dark, or when we're afraid or when
we're anxious, that it's actually going to drive people away.
And so so we hold it. People's emotions don't fear me.
And the more I welcome that, and the more I
(19:30):
allow that for myself, and on that really powerful note,
we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back to dive a little deeper. Welcome back, my friends.
(19:53):
We are talking with my dear friend Kate Horsemen about
the very complex emotions that can complicate our help on
multiple levels. I would love to kind of break down
shame with you, because shame is I think such a
I mean, we're all dealing with it on some level,
and I think there's a lot of shame. I hear it.
I hear people talking about it, especially surrounding their bodies,
and it's something that you talk about often. And I
(20:15):
just was wondering if we could speak to this shame
piece and like how it affects our emotional health and
you know, kind of unpacking. I think one of the
things that we don't necessarily explore with shame is its
origin story. It happens really really young, It happens so
so young, and we suddenly wake up with this belief
(20:36):
that we're not they We're not fundamentally okay, and that
could be because of many things that can be everything
from money to sexuality to our bodies that fundamentally that
this this person that I am inhabiting is not okay
in the world. It didn't start that way. We learned
(21:00):
that at some point, and usually because the need wasn't met.
And um, that's not a place of blame. It's a
place where likely multiple generations of unmet needs are altamized,
and we don't talk about it. I think there was
this I'm not going to quote it perfectly, but there
(21:23):
was this this note mentioned by Francis Weller, who have
mentioned before you and I know you're familiar with where
he said, you can always look where the most repressed
parts of our society are. You note them because they're
not being written about, they're not being talked about. I mean,
(21:43):
me and you can have a conversation around shame. But
for a lot of people this is off limits. For
a lot of people, this might actually be the first
time where they understand. Wait a second, she said that
we all create shame. What what's my shame? Right? That
might be a first identification towards me not actually being
fundamentally wrong. We aren't born with it. We learn it
(22:05):
at some point, usually really really young, and and we
can not unlearn it, but we can release it. We
can learn how to release that shame. An important aspect
if I'm talking about shame is to note like where
this also exists within the lines of our culture and
our society. So this isn't only what's happening in our
homes it might be, but what we're actually witnessing in
(22:29):
our world. Right, If if bodies look different than me,
then something must be wrong with mine. If this person
is valued, then I must do that to be valued, right,
which is very narrow. It's very very narrow. And let
me think of how unique all of us are. There's
(22:50):
so many versions of humanity, and God, you know, I
am a white, pretty slim woman, and even I don't
feel like I fit in most of the time. I
think that shame that piece of you that says you
know that something is fundamentally wrong with you. It's real,
(23:13):
and it's deep. It's a really lonely place to be because,
like you're saying, that's very isolating. And I feel like
I've spent a lot of my life trying to avoid
that feeling. The achievements and the going and the doing
and the achieving more, and I feel like that those
pieces for me have if I really think about it,
(23:34):
it's kept me from feeling the fear of being just normal,
or the fear of being shamed or being less than.
I really had to name that for myself because and
it's it's almost shameful to name it. It's like layers
and layers of shame. It's like there's something very brave
(23:56):
about naming these pieces and being really honest about the
feelings around them, because there's so much shame. Like I said,
about just naming them. Yeah, it's it's like reaching to
the farthest corners of the places in your body that
you've abandoned, bring your soul maybe even bold beyond your body.
Will you go there and bringing them back? That is
(24:17):
a courageous act. That is a rebellious act. That's not
what we're doing or what we haven't been doing, but
it's probably required of us. And it doesn't mean, you know,
putting us in into the lane way of danger, but
it does mean taking a risk on you know, whatever
the boundaries or edges of ourselves that we've said are
not worthy. And you know, you you mentioned the avoidance.
(24:39):
I think that it's really important in looking at shame
work to know what are the things that distance me
from these feelings because we do not want to sit
in shame nor should we. Like that is discomfort, and
there's a place in time to be with discomfort. And
it's important to identify, like what are the things that
try to move me a away from that? And perfectionism
(25:01):
is actually like a brilliant tactic and I think that
that's something that we're seeing demonstrated perfectionism. We talked about
this a little bit yesterday. Performance, Right, those are those
are ways that we can distance ourselves, not only from
those feelings, but maybe even from our body, become a
different version of ourselves, not a version that isn't accurate,
(25:24):
but it's certainly not full. Well that that performative piece.
I mean, look, we all have been trained to perform
on certain levels. I mean you and I are are
actually you know, performers, and there's a piece of that
that is beautiful. But I know from my own self,
like starting so young in performance being such a huge
part of my life, like there's always been a piece
(25:45):
of performance and everything that I do. And to the
extent of recognizing that there's a lot of untruth, I
guess to name it in that way, There's been a
lot of untruth in the past to the version of
me that I felt like I had to be because
you know, I didn't feel like the authentic me it
(26:07):
was enough. And so you know, all of these parts
that I've felt shame around, maybe my my anger or
my sexuality or you know, all of these kind of
pieces of me that got pushed to the basement because
it wasn't it wasn't the version of me that everyone wanted.
You know, I've felt there's been a lot of shame
(26:27):
around all of these different, darker pieces of me. And also,
like I said, the shame around even naming, like, oh,
I wasn't really honest about who I was because it
wasn't welcome. I didn't feel like it was welcome, and
that that authenticity has there's so many layers to that
and more and more I'm stepping into the truth of
who I am and that it's really powerful. It's really
(26:49):
powerful to to step out of that shame. But I
think in that so so much of us gets frozen
in time, like in this this kind of feeling of
shame and and freeze and and heaviness. Like to me,
shame feels really heavy, and you know, maybe this is
like an invitation for anyone that's listening to is to
(27:09):
notice where you feel shame, Like what does that feel like?
You know, like there was definitely a point in my
life where I was like, how how does this feel?
My body? No way so so so cut off, but
being a little bit in right relationship with Oh, these
are the sensations. I don't have to stick around here.
I don't have to stay here, but I'm gonna try
and get to know them right, build like a little
(27:31):
bit of a bridge back and forth to build that
that friendship, to to allow that welcoming back. And you know, Lee,
as you're talking, I'm like thinking of you performing this week,
It's like, oh, well, welcome her. I heard you say,
like that part of me wasn't welcome or there was
part of me that didn't feel welcome. Can I now
be that for myself? And we might not feel that fully,
(27:53):
but sometimes I think we actually have to practice it
to get there. We can't think our way out of things.
Sometimes we just have to embody it and give ourselves
the permission to say, no, I'm going to belong here.
I'm going to belong here in this moment. I'm going
to see how it feels m hm. He's just saying
(28:15):
that it is very triggering for me. In so many ways,
the belonging has felt at least personally, the to belong
has meant to be there's been a certain version of
me that can belong, especially on stage. Like there's I
think right before all of this stuff happens of the
last like probably two or three years of me performing,
there was more of this kind of vast fullness of
(28:38):
me on stage and it felt really good. It felt
like I was really fully allowing my humanity and performing
at the same time not having to cut off from myself,
and that the belonging within that felt really good. And
now it's almost like I'm having to feel my way
back into allowing myself to fully belong on stage. I
(29:04):
think it's easier to cut myself off sometimes because therein
lies my avoidance of the shame. Like if I can
be perfect and great on stage and I don't mess up,
then I avoid feeling shame. And I know for myself,
like there can be so much fear around especially performances actually,
like on TV, because you know everybody goes on social
(29:24):
media afterwards and like they all have their own like
conversations around what just happened. There can be so much
fear going into that because of oh I just want
I just want to avoid being shamed or being less than.
It's amazing the of the avoidance that plays into to
this shame piece for so many people, Like I would
(29:46):
love for people to think about like what little space
we take up, you know, because I feel like, look,
I've taken up a lot of space in this world before,
and I still feel like I'm playing small and I
think shame is one of those Shame is the thing
keeps us playing small? Yeah, I mean that's why I
tried to disappear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it certainly doesn't
(30:10):
have to look physical by any means. That was my manifestation,
but yeah, it keeps us small. All right. When we
come back, we're going to talk about all the shifty
ways that shame shows up and sidelines are well being
Welcome back, my loves. I am talking with my dear
(30:31):
friend Kate Horseman about the ultimate shape shifter shame. How
can that manifest for people? Like? What is you know,
like you're saying, for you it was physical? What other
ways can that manifest? I think it can keep us
from intimacy, not only friendships, but you know, romantic relationships.
I absolutely was incapable of being in intimacy in my twenties.
(30:57):
Even though I was in that recovered space, I was
still very much still in the shame, right. So I
think it's a way that we we create a wall,
because again, what would happen if someone actually saw me?
And I'll go further on that, but believe, when you
were talking, one thing I wanted to say was a
friend of mine's Koni. He says to me, people deserve
(31:18):
to know you and I and I think about you,
and man, how much you give and that slowness that
you're speaking of, you know, probably doesn't even necessarily translate
to what you do on stage. It's just just internally,
but we all you know, I want, I want to
know the fullest version of you. What an absolute blessing,
(31:39):
what a gift. Yeah, I'm still learning the fullest version
of me. I'm still getting to know that. I think
that the beautiful dance that I'm having with myself at
this moment is getting is allowing myself to actually for
me to know the fullest version of me. It's so
easy to hide from yourself it really is. And until
(32:02):
we know, until we allow ourselves to know the fullest
version of us, like that can't really spill over into
our lives. And that's a new way of being. It's
a it's a brave way of being. And you know,
I think it's important in these types of conversations where
we're talking about stuff that's heavy. It's just also not
to romanticize it, you know. I know I at times
(32:25):
kind of speak poetically about like this downfall, which was
pretty extreme. My fault was as as great as might
come back. Right, So, um, I don't want to romanticize
it because I think people need to know that it
has work, and it has grit to it, and it's
okay to take breaks in it. It's okay too for
this to be absolutely only about your exploration and not
(32:48):
about how others perceive you, know, that different version of you,
only only yourself. Um. For one reason or another, I
wanted to say. I was talking to a client the
other day and we're talking about this idea of allowing
things just to be a bit easier, Like can we
actually give ourselves a permission to like let life, let
the emotions, let whatever is there just be easy, and
(33:11):
I've come up against some resistance, and I think what
I was able to articulate was, you know, there's those
people who can actually just brush things off and laugh
about it. I can't not yet, because it wasn't funny
for me when I was in survival. It was never
easy when I was in survival. So I'm just learning
(33:33):
again how I might even fathom laughing something off right.
I totally understand that completely. I mean, you and I
talk a lot about our inner children and like coming
home to them and stepping into joy more. This is
what we converse about when we talk about privately. But
(33:56):
I think a lot of people can relate to that,
you know, as as performers so young, but I think
a lot of people parentified children, people have, you know,
children of abuse. Energetically, I feel like I've learned to
hang out in a different realm of sometimes limited possibility
when it comes to emotions, um, where joy wasn't actually
like in my reach. The innocence of myself, the playfulness
(34:20):
of myself wasn't in my reach. And I'm glad you're
sharing that because I think that that is real for
a lot of people. Some people haven't had to experience
trauma so deeply and so and that's wonderful and I'm
so glad that people have that experience. I know a
lot of my journey recently has been coming home to
(34:43):
this little piece of me, to my innocence, to the joy.
And I know that's been a lot of your journey
too when it comes to that piece. What has been
supportive for you in actually coming home to your innocence,
coming home to joy as a new experience, to to
actually like exist more in that realm instead of the
(35:06):
realm of trauma. I feel like one of the first
things that comes to minds is patients, because I think, again,
being that the joy wasn't or isn't always that as accessible,
I sometimes get caught in this judgment of like, why
can't right now be easy? It's like, because you're learning
(35:27):
how to do things differently, and before if you did
things easily, maybe you're actually in danger. Right Yes, So
I think having patients is a big part of it.
I think any and all embodied practices where like I
could actually be in stand the feelings that are there
because when we're children, we actually usually have much more
(35:49):
ability to have that freedom in our body. So I
think that there's something about embodied practices, even something like
dance or exercise or a breathing that actually just reconnects
us back to that core person, that that soul, as
opposed to the layers that are layered onto that soul.
(36:11):
So I think, I think those are a few ways.
And I always say it, and I always worry that
it's like it's just another word, but it's compassion. It's
like two pillars of my work is curiosity and compassion.
If we can meet ourselves with that, I think that
we're going to shift a lot of things. And so
(36:33):
that compassion is just like a deep claiming of everything
that is there, and in doing so, it creates space
for the possibility that maybe joy can exist then maybe
plays in there that I can afford myself to permission.
Right when our nervous system is you know this, like
you know, so activated, we're not gonna be able to
(36:55):
access freedom in that spot. It's only when when we
when we're brought down. And I think that that's what
compassion does, is it brings us back down to a
neutral playing field where we can maybe navigate what we
want to do with the rest of that expenditure. Mm hmm.
You've talked recently on your Instagram page about like affirmations
(37:16):
and bringing what if then to our affirmations. I've heard
so much about people sometimes they're like affirmations don't work
and they're so stupid. And I've kind of been on
that side of the fence before, like oh, this is
so dumb, like I don't believe what I'm saying. And
that was what was so interesting about the what if
(37:37):
for me that you brought in was like it brings
in possibility. Yeah. I was wondering because you just kind
of touched on that a little bit of like you know,
the compassion peace, giving ourselves compassion and brings in that
that a new possibility. And I think this what if
peace when it comes to affirmations for people who use them,
or maybe if you've like shunned them in and like
(37:59):
this does work for me, maybe now this is a
new way to work with them if you just speak
to that a little bit. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd
love to. Yeah. And I actually thought it was just
another way that there was something wrong with me that
I didn't like affirmations right totally. You know, like this
doesn't work for me, and there's exactly and it's all
my faults. It's making me worse. I am actually fundamentally
(38:20):
wrong because I can't even say these affirmations right. Yeah,
I always had that bad feeling. I think in that
post what I said was like, I feel the same
way about you should love your body or I love
my body as much as you should smile. It holds
the same charge, like it just doesn't feel like something
that's appropriate. And of course not to say that if
(38:40):
you don't feel those ways about about yourself, like full
permission to claim to claim that love right, that is yours.
But I think for a lot of people when we
hear the affirmations, we just question if it's really true
that part of our shame filled you know center is
like Nope, that doesn't add up, that doesn't belong, that's
(39:00):
not you. And so we rejected, and we rejected, and
then again we judge ourselves for having to reject it.
And so I've just been going off the curiosity piece. Also,
it's curiosity as a question mark. I'm far more committed
to creating like a question mark behind things. So maybe
if you're struggling with affirmations, put a question mark behind it.
(39:24):
It changes the tone of our voice. It says, is
that true? But the idea is with affirmations that you know,
if we place a what if beforehand, and I actually
in retrospect thinking that it's not only for affirmations, but
also for the negative narrative in our mind. If we
(39:45):
place that the what if, they're too we might be
challenging it just as much. So classic affirmation is I
am I am beautiful, I I love myself and that's
like a far distant reaching place for me. And what
(40:06):
would change within that is what if I am beautiful?
What if I can love myself? There's just a different resonance,
a different charge in the body that says, you know what,
I'm actually gonna let this bypass the nervous system. You can,
you can have it, whereas the other one, I think
just really activate something and it shuts us down. Yeah,
(40:30):
there's a lot of space when you say that. Yeah,
Like I feel more spacious in my own body of
like what if I am beautiful? What if joy is
a possibility for me? You know, like what if that could?
What if joy is my baseline? Yeah? And can you
imagine like writing about that and like jamming off of
like what what actually what would that mean? What would
(40:53):
that mean? Mm hmm. Yeah, you journal a lot, don't you?
Or you write you right off? Yeah, if you, I do.
I just questioned a lot of things. I think it's
been probably one of my greatest practices is to really
just like ask myself if this is true? Because I
really believed and still at times do believe everything and
bits in my mind is true and it's not. You know,
(41:17):
it's not. I just have to remind myself of that. Yeah,
you're so right on about that. And it's but how
do we you know there but there are things that
are true? You know, and it's like how do we
access how do we go past the mind into what
have you found? I guess is the truest space for you?
Like how when you when you are believing all of
these things are in your mind are true? What has
(41:40):
been supportive in diving into the place that is truer,
our truest. Yeah, I mean I think you I'm going
to feel into that for a second, but I think
you said something really interesting when I said of what
it's You're like like I felt more spacious. I felt
I think being able to run those those thoughts through
(42:04):
a software in your body, you know, And again maybe
that takes practice. Maybe we have to heal some some
body trauma first, Yeah, because I think so many people
are we are so disconnected from our body. If it
was two years ago, I wouldn't be able to tell you, oh,
I felt a lot more space in my body, as
the body hasn't been it hasn't been a safe place
for me, and I know a lot of other people
(42:25):
and so that embodiment takes a while, and therein lies
your patients. Like for me, this has been the years
of of work to get to where I feel space
in my body or feel anything in my body. They
say the body never lies and it talks to us
all the time, And I'm like this freaking bodies and
that talking to me, what are you talking about? Or
(42:46):
it's telling me like things that are like there's a
fire in the body, like the alarms are going off,
and it's actually like, no, the body's fine. That's actually
just your your thoughts right now that are triggering that effect.
So it is a complex one and I think that
it's one probably to move with caution. We're kind of
in this world in field of awareness where we're talking
(43:09):
about developing our intuition and just like listen to your gun.
I'm like, how, how, how how do we do that?
Mm hmm. But if you are able to stay the course,
if you are able to hang out in your body
a little bit longer with those feelings, then I think
the body can become an ally. I think that it
(43:29):
can become a tool to really land or to note
when those places do feel truest, when we do feel
that opening, that like spark of joy, It's like, oh,
that's what that feels like. Okay, now I know, now,
I know. So being aware of the body, maybe it
is one of the first steps. It might not always
be the accurate, it might not be full proof, but
(43:50):
but it's one of the ways. All Right, we are
going to take a quick break and a quick breath,
but don't go away. We'll be right hello again. Loves
Kate was just walking us through the power of adding
(44:10):
joy and curiosity to our practice. You know, curiosity. I've
actually had Dr Judd Burr on recently and we were talking.
One of his biggest pieces is, you know, curiosity and
getting curious with like genuinely curious and I know for
myself it took me a while to learn. I know
(44:31):
I didn't have to learn to be curious, but it
took me a while to trust curiosity. I think curiosity
and for me, curiosity and joy and all of those
feelings are kind of mixed together because, like you were
saying that, you know, if we've been in survival mode forever,
like you're not really getting curious in survival mode, right.
(44:52):
I think one of the biggest pieces for me has been,
like you're saying, patients, but also learning that now that
I'm not always in survival mode, when I'm more in
a thriving kind of space, knowing that I can trust
that space, learning that I can trust that space, learning
that I can trust my own curiosity, and these moments
of joy and even though I I'm not that's not
(45:15):
where I hang out all the time, I am having
more of those moments, And I just want everyone to
hear out there, if you feel like those aren't trustworthy
just yet or trustable, that it's okay to feel that
way because in in survival we have we haven't had
access to those places. And so if you're if you're like,
(45:37):
what the hell are we talking about right now. It's
okay too, It's okay to not know absolutely, and that
might actually be a beautiful place also to start, whether
you are welcoming and of curiosity or not. Is what
what does this remind me of? Where where in my
life the curiosity stop? Because you know, as you're talking
about curiosity, joy, there was a third one you said,
(46:00):
But I'm thinking those those belong to leave, those belong
to you know, those are qualities of our youngest selves,
because that was our nature. We would want to test
the waters to learn right, so meeting I suppose the
youngest parts of ourselves too in in that exploration. I
love that question. Where did curiosity enjoy and play? When
(46:23):
did I feel like those were welcome? When did that stop? Yeah?
And it would be interesting to note how how connected
those are with any pieces of shame. There's probably something
there I can think about. I mean, I remember, yeah,
being really young, and my dad actually often said, you're
so curious, and I thought it was such a bad thing.
(46:45):
In retrospect, I know that it wasn't. But I do
think that there was a long period of my life
where I actually really identified that that was something fundamentally
wrong with me. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I could talk to
you all day about all this stuff. But thank you
so much for for joining me and and opening your
heart to us. It's so vast and beautiful and I'm
(47:07):
so grateful. I always ask my guests about music, and
I know, I know you love music so much. When
we did our breath work sessions, Kate's like, I just
get to play DJ. This is my favorite part of
the whole thing, which I love to like, I love
putting music together for what I breathe. Yeah, I love
a good playlist, So I I do something called the
Holy five. So these could be songs like that are
(47:29):
moving you now, that have moved you throughout your life.
But just what are your Holy five? And and why
this is hard? It's hard, right, I know every guest
is like, oh my god, I spent so much time
on this. I feel like I could come up with ten,
but five was hard and also really exciting. The number
one is everybody wants to rule the world by tears
(47:51):
for fears. That's such a good one. Yeah. It was
the first tape that it was given to me. I
was a little tea. I was six years old. My
half brother gave that to me, and it was impactful.
(48:20):
Second one is how to Disappear Completely by Radio Ahead.
I've never heard that song. I've never heard that title.
Daryl's looking at me, like what, I've never heard that song.
I have to go listen just because of the title. Alone. Yeah,
(48:51):
that's amazing. You'll have to take a breath. It has
been by my side through some moments. Maybe it met
me in my despair. I'll say that that part of
me that that felt always alone in those feelings, I
feel like really was able to connect. That was one
of the things that you felt new you Yeah, yeah, exactly.
M Yeah, It's amazing how music can do that right.
(49:13):
It is amazing and truly some very pivotal moments in
my life. I I hold music so so close beside it.
Nobody but You by Charles Bradley No product work, so
(49:47):
a new one. I don't know that. Yeah, it's a
good one ever. Mind's men Dan Oh yeah yeah, so
and I had like an epic one of the best
content it's in my life Charles Bradley had called Commodore
in Vancouver. I'm gonna go for a twist. Now this
is gonna be girls, Girls, Girls by Jay Z it
(50:13):
like they're either gonna think I'm gonna say Motley Crewe
or jay Z, but it's jay Z When I'm girls,
I'm gonna scoop you with that cool singing on us fishing.
(50:33):
I love it. Oh my god, I love jay Z. Yeah.
So uh. One that I'm loving right now is Howling
by Rayax and specifically, um it's a Sophie Tucker remix,
so it takes it on like a dance element and
it's like eight minutes long. Oh nice, it's so good. God,
(51:04):
thank you. I love that song. Thank you for finally
telling me how to say his name. Ry X. I'm
like r y X. His voice is so amazing. I love, love,
love it. I'm gonna have to go look at that version.
He also has a beautiful album out now Live. Yeah,
(51:25):
it's it's gorgeous. I got the record. Yeah, so oh
you did? Oh fun? Do you click? Final? Yeah? I
love it me too a bit, but um yeah, I
love Final records. They sound so good. Thank you, my love,
Thank you You're the best, you too. I really appreciate it,
all right, I love you, And that, my friends, brings
(51:50):
us to the end of this very cozy, comfortable episode.
Of Holy Human. Thank you for spending this time with
Kate and myself, and you know I'd always love to
hear your thoughts, so please post them in the comments
wherever you're listening and share this with anyone who could
use a little more curiosity in their lives. On our
(52:11):
next Holy Human, I'll be joined by the incredible and
inspiring force of nature that is Terry Cole. She'll be
sharing some powerful perspectives on the significant benefits of that
creating boundaries have on your life and your relationships. And
trust me, you're going to want to listen to this
episode until then, keep the faith, keep loving each other,
(52:33):
and I love you. Holy Human with Me Leanne Rhymes
is a production of I Heart Radio
Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
Heart Radio. Welcome everyone to this special episode of Holy Human.
You know this episode might feel like grabbing a cup
of tea with a good friend, because that is how
I always feel when I connect with the warm, wise
(00:22):
and beautiful Kate Horsemen. In addition to being an integrative
nutritionist and healer specializing in mind, body, and soul wellness,
Kate is also a very close friend and I am
so happy she's joining us today on Holy Human. Yeah Yeah,
(01:04):
I'm doing okay. Yeah. Do you feel that today too?
You're like, I'm doing all right. By the way, I'm
just gonna let everyone know this will be a completely
probably different vibe than most of the podcast because Kate
is a dear friend of mine and I just thought
we would see where this takes us. I have questions,
but just from that, I'm doing okay. Um. It's been
(01:25):
really interesting because I'm about to go out and start
performing on Friday. I've been sitting here before our conversation
in complete terror. I mean, I haven't not been on
stage and like my whole life basically, but like for
sixteen months like this and a stretch of time and
it's been really heavy. I think a lot of people
might be able to relate to that because we've all
(01:46):
been kind of bundled up in our cozy little world
for so long, and there's a lot of fear coming
up for a lot of people at this moment. Well,
I was wondering, and you know, maybe this little present itself.
But part of that fear is that I am fundamentally
different now and I've gone through this period of growth
and change, some of what I probably didn't want to
(02:07):
go through, some of what I've grieved, And so now,
how how does this person integrate into those other roles? Yeah?
How do we how do we stay authentic to where
we are in this place? Part of the growth for
me right now is, you know, as a performer, I
can go on stage and literally like I can cut
(02:29):
myself off from myself onto of all the fear and
all the things and still walk on stage and do
what I need to do. And right now is giving
me this opportunity to to include all of me and
the fear and and at all. And I think, you know,
that's been such a huge part of my practice, as
to include all of myself. I feel like I'm doing
(02:51):
myself such an injustice if I don't take this moment
to include all of me. And I think that's actually
why I'm talking about this right now, because I was
frozen and I felt like I have to start here
because I feel like I have to include all of
myself in this conversation, and that was just something I
wanted to name. Yeah, I'm so glad that you mean that.
(03:12):
I mean that gives people permission to to address it
and in claim it in themselves, right, I mean, it
helps me so everyone. This is my beautiful friend, Kate Horseman.
Kate and I met through a friend of ours, a
dear friend, Kylie, and Kylie thought that we shouldn't meet,
(03:34):
and but there are very few people that I let
into my world intimately and so quickly, and You've been
one of those people. And I'm so grateful for you
who had talent really young and started in a profession
and had that talent cultivated very young. And it's just
not something that I've run into very often, and so
(03:57):
you and I've connected in a way that it is unique,
and I'm so so grateful, and I would love for
people to know a bit of your back story of
what I'm speaking of because you were you are a
prima ballerina right from the time where yeah, well yeah,
I mean the the end wasn't as graceful as as that,
as as being as being a prima ballerina for certain,
(04:19):
but yes, and I just want to named too that
one of the things that I've noticed in our conversations
is that I feel less alone, and that there's so
many parts of me, especially the young parts of me,
that I haven't allowed I haven't been able to swim
(04:40):
in that like pool of my heart space with and
I just feel so grateful that we've been able to
connect in that way. And at many points I think
I've said, you know, I just wish me, I wish
we could have known each other then, I know, but
here we are. Yeah. So yeah. I entered into dance
and ballet very very very young. I was three years
(05:01):
old when I started. Presumably I had a passion and
an interest for it, so I don't I don't really recall.
I know that that must have been the case, but
pretty early on when I started training, there was a
talent that was noticed um and that started to cultivate.
I would say that prior to age nine, that life
(05:26):
looked a little bit more leisurely, you know, it looked
like more recreational dance and play. But by the time
I reached nine, there was this shift when I was
scouted by the National Ballet School of Canada and ultimately
then went to train with them for a summer um.
I was so terribly homesick because at that point in
(05:49):
training they had some different philosophies about how to hone
these skills. And you're in a dorm and you don't
have a phone. I think they don't like, you're allowed
to write home the first week. The second week, I
think you're allowed to phone home. And then yeah, yeah,
(06:09):
that's intense. Yeah. So there were these sort of behavioral
modification things that happened, and I was a child that
actually had a really hard time communicating and expressing my feelings,
and I felt a lot like my God, I actually
I have not realized up until this year how much
(06:29):
I feel. And I'm giving myself that permission. Yeah, I
completely understand that, and that's so interesting, the feeling piece
of it. I am Eddie and I did a wilderness
survival training. It was two days, forty hours, was sixteen
hour training and it was so intense that I had
(06:52):
to walk out of the room a couple of times
and meditate and breathe because we were talking about blood
and broken bones and like all these different scenarios would
put you in And it was good for me because
I was like, Okay, if I have to deal with this,
you know, in all my sensitivities, I'm gonna have to.
I'm gonna have to know what to do. But I
realized over those two days how much I feel. Not
(07:15):
that I didn't know, but I really know now. And
it's taken like all this time, you know, my whole
life basically to come up against Oh wow, I'm really
that sensitive. Yeah, and not giving ourselves the permission or
you know, I'm sure we each individually and probably together
and collectively have you know, these these reasons why, but
(07:37):
we've had to distance ourselves from those feelings. And I
actually think during the pandemic there's been this interesting opportunity
to get a little more still, examine a little bit more,
and deepened into that permission. I think it's I think
it's an invitation. I don't think necessarily everyone chooses to
take that invitation. But I think I'm finally at a
(07:59):
place where I know I'm getting to know that I
have the capacity to be with those feelings, I know
what to do with those feelings, and when I don't,
then then what is there to discover too? I would
say that those feelings of being so young and so
lonely really were a catalyst to really turn inwards, but
(08:24):
not in a way that was introspective, in a way
that was really self destructive and self self abandoning. And
that's when I would say there was some energies that
play within me that started started to take a turn
or dance didn't feel necessarily like the safest or the
healthiest thing. So I've changed some of my tune on that,
(08:44):
which maybe we'll get to. Yeah, yeah, how has that
changed for you? Well? I think one of the stories
that I had to claim, and it's not that it
wasn't an accurate one, but was that dance could be
something that was to blame within this, within this sort
(09:07):
of collapse and breakdown of what I experienced and recently
recently being my last I guess if I were ten
years being in a more embodied version of myself claiming
pieces of myself back, I realized that probably was absolute
blessing that I had dance and that I had that
(09:33):
sense of focus, because it was actually probably one of
the only ways that I could express all the chaos
that was going on in my life. What I couldn't
speak of the things that I've been through, the things
that I was experiencing. They had a conduit through movement,
and I actually now note that some of the years,
(09:55):
you know, I'm jumping ahead of it, but where I
was really in my struggle and in disorder, they were
unsupported by the fact that I didn't move. Oh, so
like I had to reject it, and I think probably
at that moment in time that was was the place
where I could go, where like the rejection of that
movement was what my psyche needed in order to start
(10:17):
to heal. But at the same time, I didn't have
still the capacity or just the internal capacity to explore
my feelings, and dance allowed me to have that. So yeah,
I think it's just really interesting to to look at
the layers of it. And I still feel like I'm
entering into different relationships with it, and and and spoiler alert,
(10:40):
like I feel like I feel like I need to
dance again in some capacity just just for myself. Yeah,
I mean I think that our soul mine has always
been my singing voice years has been movement. You know,
our soul wants to speak and in what way? What's
the catalyst? You know, like what is and that could
(11:01):
be anything. It doesn't have to be art, like people's
soul wants to speak through through anything. But I think
the interesting piece you know when you talk about dance
being joyful and playful, right, and music for me was
was joyful and playful, and then it became a job
and we get lost in so many things, the perfectionism
(11:24):
of things, the expectations of others upon you know, that
which we're sharing our soul, and it can become soul less.
Something that was once the catalyst for expression can become
just another thing we do. Yeah, it's like it's like
you disconnect from yourself. And again I'm curious how maybe
(11:48):
being in a more embodied version of myself have claimed
some of those pieces back. But I still think, I
still think that there's more because that expression got stunted.
M How old were you when you started to experience
because you you experienced in or X from a fairly
early age. Yet yeah, I was probably twelve years old
(12:09):
when I was actively in my eating disorder. But I
would say that, you know, during the years of maybe not,
but like here here's me like pushing it under the ruck.
I actively had an eating disorder and I actively continued
to train and dance, and there was you know, no no,
no problem with no awareness. Right, the awareness is internally.
(12:30):
I think there was a lot of awareness externally, um,
but it was acceptable. So I think by the age
of like twelve, thirteen fourteen, it was starting to take
on that energy of being a career where I felt
like I was more becoming an expectation or a commodity.
(12:53):
So we'll go back and forth with training either in
Toronto or Winnipeg. And then my goal was ultimately York
and I started going to e BT and school. American
Ballet was like my dream school because I wanted to
be a dance with New York City Ballet. I'm kind
of fast forwarding here, but those were the moments where
they should have been like the most joy filled, you know,
(13:15):
expression on my dance. I was at my absolute peak
in my in my physical body um or in my expression.
I should say my physical body was rapidly declining. But
I know that I seemed probably like a ghost on stage.
I remember someone coming up to me, and I actually
felt it felt so horrendous. They said, you just don't
(13:37):
you don't use there's nothing to your face anymore, you
don't smile, you don't And I thought, like, you're actually
not seeing like what what I'm going through. I'm just
another another version of a like a commodity that you're expecting.
So you're not only dismissing the fact that I'm clearly struggling,
but there's still this expectation on what it's supposed to
(13:58):
look like. Yeah, it's still kind of remarkable to me.
How how that all happened? I think again, I just
felt so limited in my possibilities. I was so deep
and and despondent in my shame that I didn't feel
like there were many choices. And ultimately, when the prospect
was to be with New York City Ballet, they told
(14:21):
me that I would have to gain weight in order
to stay and to make it in the company. And
I walked away, Old, are you then eighteen? And so
fast forward? Not to fast forward from that, but to
the work that you do now? How would you describe
the work that you do. I think the closest way
that I can describe it is that I work as
(14:43):
an integrative healing practitioner. I use different modalities that I
weave together. I want to create a framework basket that
supports and contains, and so that has meant for me
continuing my education as a counselor the building in that
neutral Asian herbalism UM and now energy work because I
(15:04):
think that we've really missed the soul heart even in
like our regular talk therapy. Historically it was meant to
be a soul conversation. But what I experienced and want
to know so many experiences that we extrapolate the soul
from the work. And so my hope is just to
create a holistic opportunity for any individual that comes to
(15:27):
me UM to explore that. And I'm grateful to support
a lot of people that work through their disordered eating
they have a eating disorder or body image um or
any mental health issues. Really, what was the decision like
to step forward into this work for you? Because I
can imagine that it, yes, is healing. It's a lifelong
(15:49):
journey right to heal these parts of ourselves. But I'm
I'm imagining that to help people through disordered eating that
have some of the same traumas that you have, I'm
imagining that be incredibly triggering at times. So I wonder
what was that like, Like, what was that decision like
to step into this work When I went back to
school and I was like, Okay, I think this is
(16:11):
what I'm gonna do. I'm meant to help people. I
didn't practice at all. I didn't like, I did not
step into that work. I didn't step into it until
I went back to school to get for nutrition, until
I went through a period of a relapse. I did
not want to go into this work until I felt
rounded in in the work that I had done, that
there was a solid enough foundation. I certainly think there's
possibility for the triggers to be there, but there's a
(16:33):
certain level of intimacy that I think upholds those boundaries
that are necessary. I think we all want someone to
know that we get it. And I literally never felt
I'm kind of grieving for this, you know, reasonly. I
don't think I ever felt like I had someone that
(16:54):
was like, I get what you're going through. And so
I think that there's an aspect that is just kind
of sacred in being able to have these conversations with
people that know that I've gone through it. Do I
leave my experience at the door? Yeah, but if it
feels helpful to bring that threat in and leave that
into our story, great, it's there. Yeah. The work you
(17:17):
do is I mean, I know just as a friend,
you're incredibly supportive and present. And we just did a
breath work session together not long ago, and it's something
that it's new to you in the way that you've
been um working with people, and it was probably one
of the most supportive things I've ever been through in
that space. And I highly recommend anybody that can book
(17:41):
a session with Gate do. It's just so I think
because of everything you've gone through in life, it's given you,
like you say, the capacity to be with all parts
of people. And there's so much shame. You know, you
brought up shame. There's so much shame around our bodies.
Are body these as women, you know, when I think
(18:01):
of the word shame, it's like the things that come
up are you know, sex, body, food, money, like all
the things. And when you have someone like yourself that
has gone to those dark places within themselves, you know,
are the darker places, and has has held your own
shame in that way. I think it's the capacity that
(18:21):
you have to hold people just in general is so vast.
You give people permission to bring all of those pieces
to the table, and that to me has been the
most welcoming energy to have in my life, because you're right,
there's not a lot of people that go, oh, I
(18:45):
get that. And by the way, all of you is,
all of you is welcome here. Most of us don't
know how to welcome all of ourselves, So how can
we welcome all of the rest of someone else, you know?
And that's the thing I was just gonna say. I
think the reason why that's within some of my values
is because that's what I want m I want to
be able to be a fullest expression of me and
(19:09):
for someone not to run away. But that's what we fear.
We fear that like when we go to pieces, that
when stuff is dark, or when we're afraid or when
we're anxious, that it's actually going to drive people away.
And so so we hold it. People's emotions don't fear me.
And the more I welcome that, and the more I
(19:30):
allow that for myself, and on that really powerful note,
we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back to dive a little deeper. Welcome back, my friends.
(19:53):
We are talking with my dear friend Kate Horsemen about
the very complex emotions that can complicate our help on
multiple levels. I would love to kind of break down
shame with you, because shame is I think such a
I mean, we're all dealing with it on some level,
and I think there's a lot of shame. I hear it.
I hear people talking about it, especially surrounding their bodies,
and it's something that you talk about often. And I
(20:15):
just was wondering if we could speak to this shame
piece and like how it affects our emotional health and
you know, kind of unpacking. I think one of the
things that we don't necessarily explore with shame is its
origin story. It happens really really young, It happens so
so young, and we suddenly wake up with this belief
(20:36):
that we're not they We're not fundamentally okay, and that
could be because of many things that can be everything
from money to sexuality to our bodies that fundamentally that
this this person that I am inhabiting is not okay
in the world. It didn't start that way. We learned
(21:00):
that at some point, and usually because the need wasn't met.
And um, that's not a place of blame. It's a
place where likely multiple generations of unmet needs are altamized,
and we don't talk about it. I think there was
this I'm not going to quote it perfectly, but there
(21:23):
was this this note mentioned by Francis Weller, who have
mentioned before you and I know you're familiar with where
he said, you can always look where the most repressed
parts of our society are. You note them because they're
not being written about, they're not being talked about. I mean,
(21:43):
me and you can have a conversation around shame. But
for a lot of people this is off limits. For
a lot of people, this might actually be the first
time where they understand. Wait a second, she said that
we all create shame. What what's my shame? Right? That
might be a first identification towards me not actually being
fundamentally wrong. We aren't born with it. We learn it
(22:05):
at some point, usually really really young, and and we
can not unlearn it, but we can release it. We
can learn how to release that shame. An important aspect
if I'm talking about shame is to note like where
this also exists within the lines of our culture and
our society. So this isn't only what's happening in our
homes it might be, but what we're actually witnessing in
(22:29):
our world. Right, If if bodies look different than me,
then something must be wrong with mine. If this person
is valued, then I must do that to be valued, right,
which is very narrow. It's very very narrow. And let
me think of how unique all of us are. There's
(22:50):
so many versions of humanity, and God, you know, I
am a white, pretty slim woman, and even I don't
feel like I fit in most of the time. I
think that shame that piece of you that says you
know that something is fundamentally wrong with you. It's real,
(23:13):
and it's deep. It's a really lonely place to be because,
like you're saying, that's very isolating. And I feel like
I've spent a lot of my life trying to avoid
that feeling. The achievements and the going and the doing
and the achieving more, and I feel like that those
pieces for me have if I really think about it,
(23:34):
it's kept me from feeling the fear of being just normal,
or the fear of being shamed or being less than.
I really had to name that for myself because and
it's it's almost shameful to name it. It's like layers
and layers of shame. It's like there's something very brave
(23:56):
about naming these pieces and being really honest about the
feelings around them, because there's so much shame. Like I said,
about just naming them. Yeah, it's it's like reaching to
the farthest corners of the places in your body that
you've abandoned, bring your soul maybe even bold beyond your body.
Will you go there and bringing them back? That is
(24:17):
a courageous act. That is a rebellious act. That's not
what we're doing or what we haven't been doing, but
it's probably required of us. And it doesn't mean, you know,
putting us in into the lane way of danger, but
it does mean taking a risk on you know, whatever
the boundaries or edges of ourselves that we've said are
not worthy. And you know, you you mentioned the avoidance.
(24:39):
I think that it's really important in looking at shame
work to know what are the things that distance me
from these feelings because we do not want to sit
in shame nor should we. Like that is discomfort, and
there's a place in time to be with discomfort. And
it's important to identify, like what are the things that
try to move me a away from that? And perfectionism
(25:01):
is actually like a brilliant tactic and I think that
that's something that we're seeing demonstrated perfectionism. We talked about
this a little bit yesterday. Performance, Right, those are those
are ways that we can distance ourselves, not only from
those feelings, but maybe even from our body, become a
different version of ourselves, not a version that isn't accurate,
(25:24):
but it's certainly not full. Well that that performative piece.
I mean, look, we all have been trained to perform
on certain levels. I mean you and I are are
actually you know, performers, and there's a piece of that
that is beautiful. But I know from my own self,
like starting so young in performance being such a huge
part of my life, like there's always been a piece
(25:45):
of performance and everything that I do. And to the
extent of recognizing that there's a lot of untruth, I
guess to name it in that way, There's been a
lot of untruth in the past to the version of
me that I felt like I had to be because
you know, I didn't feel like the authentic me it
(26:07):
was enough. And so you know, all of these parts
that I've felt shame around, maybe my my anger or
my sexuality or you know, all of these kind of
pieces of me that got pushed to the basement because
it wasn't it wasn't the version of me that everyone wanted.
You know, I've felt there's been a lot of shame
(26:27):
around all of these different, darker pieces of me. And also,
like I said, the shame around even naming, like, oh,
I wasn't really honest about who I was because it
wasn't welcome. I didn't feel like it was welcome, and
that that authenticity has there's so many layers to that
and more and more I'm stepping into the truth of
who I am and that it's really powerful. It's really
(26:49):
powerful to to step out of that shame. But I
think in that so so much of us gets frozen
in time, like in this this kind of feeling of
shame and and freeze and and heaviness. Like to me,
shame feels really heavy, and you know, maybe this is
like an invitation for anyone that's listening to is to
(27:09):
notice where you feel shame, Like what does that feel like?
You know, like there was definitely a point in my
life where I was like, how how does this feel?
My body? No way so so so cut off, but
being a little bit in right relationship with Oh, these
are the sensations. I don't have to stick around here.
I don't have to stay here, but I'm gonna try
and get to know them right, build like a little
(27:31):
bit of a bridge back and forth to build that
that friendship, to to allow that welcoming back. And you know, Lee,
as you're talking, I'm like thinking of you performing this week,
It's like, oh, well, welcome her. I heard you say,
like that part of me wasn't welcome or there was
part of me that didn't feel welcome. Can I now
be that for myself? And we might not feel that fully,
(27:53):
but sometimes I think we actually have to practice it
to get there. We can't think our way out of things.
Sometimes we just have to embody it and give ourselves
the permission to say, no, I'm going to belong here.
I'm going to belong here in this moment. I'm going
to see how it feels m hm. He's just saying
(28:15):
that it is very triggering for me. In so many ways,
the belonging has felt at least personally, the to belong
has meant to be there's been a certain version of
me that can belong, especially on stage. Like there's I
think right before all of this stuff happens of the
last like probably two or three years of me performing,
there was more of this kind of vast fullness of
(28:38):
me on stage and it felt really good. It felt
like I was really fully allowing my humanity and performing
at the same time not having to cut off from myself,
and that the belonging within that felt really good. And
now it's almost like I'm having to feel my way
back into allowing myself to fully belong on stage. I
(29:04):
think it's easier to cut myself off sometimes because therein
lies my avoidance of the shame. Like if I can
be perfect and great on stage and I don't mess up,
then I avoid feeling shame. And I know for myself,
like there can be so much fear around especially performances actually,
like on TV, because you know everybody goes on social
(29:24):
media afterwards and like they all have their own like
conversations around what just happened. There can be so much
fear going into that because of oh I just want
I just want to avoid being shamed or being less than.
It's amazing the of the avoidance that plays into to
this shame piece for so many people, Like I would
(29:46):
love for people to think about like what little space
we take up, you know, because I feel like, look,
I've taken up a lot of space in this world before,
and I still feel like I'm playing small and I
think shame is one of those Shame is the thing
keeps us playing small? Yeah, I mean that's why I
tried to disappear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it certainly doesn't
(30:10):
have to look physical by any means. That was my manifestation,
but yeah, it keeps us small. All right. When we
come back, we're going to talk about all the shifty
ways that shame shows up and sidelines are well being
Welcome back, my loves. I am talking with my dear
(30:31):
friend Kate Horseman about the ultimate shape shifter shame. How
can that manifest for people? Like? What is you know,
like you're saying, for you it was physical? What other
ways can that manifest? I think it can keep us
from intimacy, not only friendships, but you know, romantic relationships.
I absolutely was incapable of being in intimacy in my twenties.
(30:57):
Even though I was in that recovered space, I was
still very much still in the shame, right. So I
think it's a way that we we create a wall,
because again, what would happen if someone actually saw me?
And I'll go further on that, but believe, when you
were talking, one thing I wanted to say was a
friend of mine's Koni. He says to me, people deserve
(31:18):
to know you and I and I think about you,
and man, how much you give and that slowness that
you're speaking of, you know, probably doesn't even necessarily translate
to what you do on stage. It's just just internally,
but we all you know, I want, I want to
know the fullest version of you. What an absolute blessing,
(31:39):
what a gift. Yeah, I'm still learning the fullest version
of me. I'm still getting to know that. I think
that the beautiful dance that I'm having with myself at
this moment is getting is allowing myself to actually for
me to know the fullest version of me. It's so
easy to hide from yourself it really is. And until
(32:02):
we know, until we allow ourselves to know the fullest
version of us, like that can't really spill over into
our lives. And that's a new way of being. It's
a it's a brave way of being. And you know,
I think it's important in these types of conversations where
we're talking about stuff that's heavy. It's just also not
to romanticize it, you know. I know I at times
(32:25):
kind of speak poetically about like this downfall, which was
pretty extreme. My fault was as as great as might
come back. Right, So, um, I don't want to romanticize
it because I think people need to know that it
has work, and it has grit to it, and it's
okay to take breaks in it. It's okay too for
this to be absolutely only about your exploration and not
(32:48):
about how others perceive you, know, that different version of you,
only only yourself. Um. For one reason or another, I
wanted to say. I was talking to a client the
other day and we're talking about this idea of allowing
things just to be a bit easier, Like can we
actually give ourselves a permission to like let life, let
the emotions, let whatever is there just be easy, and
(33:11):
I've come up against some resistance, and I think what
I was able to articulate was, you know, there's those
people who can actually just brush things off and laugh
about it. I can't not yet, because it wasn't funny
for me when I was in survival. It was never
easy when I was in survival. So I'm just learning
(33:33):
again how I might even fathom laughing something off right.
I totally understand that completely. I mean, you and I
talk a lot about our inner children and like coming
home to them and stepping into joy more. This is
what we converse about when we talk about privately. But
(33:56):
I think a lot of people can relate to that,
you know, as as performers so young, but I think
a lot of people parentified children, people have, you know,
children of abuse. Energetically, I feel like I've learned to
hang out in a different realm of sometimes limited possibility
when it comes to emotions, um, where joy wasn't actually
like in my reach. The innocence of myself, the playfulness
(34:20):
of myself wasn't in my reach. And I'm glad you're
sharing that because I think that that is real for
a lot of people. Some people haven't had to experience
trauma so deeply and so and that's wonderful and I'm
so glad that people have that experience. I know a
lot of my journey recently has been coming home to
(34:43):
this little piece of me, to my innocence, to the joy.
And I know that's been a lot of your journey
too when it comes to that piece. What has been
supportive for you in actually coming home to your innocence,
coming home to joy as a new experience, to to
actually like exist more in that realm instead of the
(35:06):
realm of trauma. I feel like one of the first
things that comes to minds is patients, because I think, again,
being that the joy wasn't or isn't always that as accessible,
I sometimes get caught in this judgment of like, why
can't right now be easy? It's like, because you're learning
(35:27):
how to do things differently, and before if you did
things easily, maybe you're actually in danger. Right Yes, So
I think having patients is a big part of it.
I think any and all embodied practices where like I
could actually be in stand the feelings that are there
because when we're children, we actually usually have much more
(35:49):
ability to have that freedom in our body. So I
think that there's something about embodied practices, even something like
dance or exercise or a breathing that actually just reconnects
us back to that core person, that that soul, as
opposed to the layers that are layered onto that soul.
(36:11):
So I think, I think those are a few ways.
And I always say it, and I always worry that
it's like it's just another word, but it's compassion. It's
like two pillars of my work is curiosity and compassion.
If we can meet ourselves with that, I think that
we're going to shift a lot of things. And so
(36:33):
that compassion is just like a deep claiming of everything
that is there, and in doing so, it creates space
for the possibility that maybe joy can exist then maybe
plays in there that I can afford myself to permission.
Right when our nervous system is you know this, like
you know, so activated, we're not gonna be able to
(36:55):
access freedom in that spot. It's only when when we
when we're brought down. And I think that that's what
compassion does, is it brings us back down to a
neutral playing field where we can maybe navigate what we
want to do with the rest of that expenditure. Mm hmm.
You've talked recently on your Instagram page about like affirmations
(37:16):
and bringing what if then to our affirmations. I've heard
so much about people sometimes they're like affirmations don't work
and they're so stupid. And I've kind of been on
that side of the fence before, like oh, this is
so dumb, like I don't believe what I'm saying. And
that was what was so interesting about the what if
(37:37):
for me that you brought in was like it brings
in possibility. Yeah. I was wondering because you just kind
of touched on that a little bit of like you know,
the compassion peace, giving ourselves compassion and brings in that
that a new possibility. And I think this what if
peace when it comes to affirmations for people who use them,
or maybe if you've like shunned them in and like
(37:59):
this does work for me, maybe now this is a
new way to work with them if you just speak
to that a little bit. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd
love to. Yeah. And I actually thought it was just
another way that there was something wrong with me that
I didn't like affirmations right totally. You know, like this
doesn't work for me, and there's exactly and it's all
my faults. It's making me worse. I am actually fundamentally
(38:20):
wrong because I can't even say these affirmations right. Yeah,
I always had that bad feeling. I think in that
post what I said was like, I feel the same
way about you should love your body or I love
my body as much as you should smile. It holds
the same charge, like it just doesn't feel like something
that's appropriate. And of course not to say that if
(38:40):
you don't feel those ways about about yourself, like full
permission to claim to claim that love right, that is yours.
But I think for a lot of people when we
hear the affirmations, we just question if it's really true
that part of our shame filled you know center is
like Nope, that doesn't add up, that doesn't belong, that's
(39:00):
not you. And so we rejected, and we rejected, and
then again we judge ourselves for having to reject it.
And so I've just been going off the curiosity piece. Also,
it's curiosity as a question mark. I'm far more committed
to creating like a question mark behind things. So maybe
if you're struggling with affirmations, put a question mark behind it.
(39:24):
It changes the tone of our voice. It says, is
that true? But the idea is with affirmations that you know,
if we place a what if beforehand, and I actually
in retrospect thinking that it's not only for affirmations, but
also for the negative narrative in our mind. If we
(39:45):
place that the what if, they're too we might be
challenging it just as much. So classic affirmation is I
am I am beautiful, I I love myself and that's
like a far distant reaching place for me. And what
(40:06):
would change within that is what if I am beautiful?
What if I can love myself? There's just a different resonance,
a different charge in the body that says, you know what,
I'm actually gonna let this bypass the nervous system. You can,
you can have it, whereas the other one, I think
just really activate something and it shuts us down. Yeah,
(40:30):
there's a lot of space when you say that. Yeah,
Like I feel more spacious in my own body of
like what if I am beautiful? What if joy is
a possibility for me? You know, like what if that could?
What if joy is my baseline? Yeah? And can you
imagine like writing about that and like jamming off of
like what what actually what would that mean? What would
(40:53):
that mean? Mm hmm. Yeah, you journal a lot, don't you?
Or you write you right off? Yeah, if you, I do.
I just questioned a lot of things. I think it's
been probably one of my greatest practices is to really
just like ask myself if this is true? Because I
really believed and still at times do believe everything and
bits in my mind is true and it's not. You know,
(41:17):
it's not. I just have to remind myself of that. Yeah,
you're so right on about that. And it's but how
do we you know there but there are things that
are true? You know, and it's like how do we
access how do we go past the mind into what
have you found? I guess is the truest space for you?
Like how when you when you are believing all of
these things are in your mind are true? What has
(41:40):
been supportive in diving into the place that is truer,
our truest. Yeah, I mean I think you I'm going
to feel into that for a second, but I think
you said something really interesting when I said of what
it's You're like like I felt more spacious. I felt
I think being able to run those those thoughts through
(42:04):
a software in your body, you know, And again maybe
that takes practice. Maybe we have to heal some some
body trauma first, Yeah, because I think so many people
are we are so disconnected from our body. If it
was two years ago, I wouldn't be able to tell you, oh,
I felt a lot more space in my body, as
the body hasn't been it hasn't been a safe place
for me, and I know a lot of other people
(42:25):
and so that embodiment takes a while, and therein lies
your patients. Like for me, this has been the years
of of work to get to where I feel space
in my body or feel anything in my body. They
say the body never lies and it talks to us
all the time, And I'm like this freaking bodies and
that talking to me, what are you talking about? Or
(42:46):
it's telling me like things that are like there's a
fire in the body, like the alarms are going off,
and it's actually like, no, the body's fine. That's actually
just your your thoughts right now that are triggering that effect.
So it is a complex one and I think that
it's one probably to move with caution. We're kind of
in this world in field of awareness where we're talking
(43:09):
about developing our intuition and just like listen to your gun.
I'm like, how, how, how how do we do that?
Mm hmm. But if you are able to stay the course,
if you are able to hang out in your body
a little bit longer with those feelings, then I think
the body can become an ally. I think that it
(43:29):
can become a tool to really land or to note
when those places do feel truest, when we do feel
that opening, that like spark of joy, It's like, oh,
that's what that feels like. Okay, now I know, now,
I know. So being aware of the body, maybe it
is one of the first steps. It might not always
be the accurate, it might not be full proof, but
(43:50):
but it's one of the ways. All Right, we are
going to take a quick break and a quick breath,
but don't go away. We'll be right hello again. Loves
Kate was just walking us through the power of adding
(44:10):
joy and curiosity to our practice. You know, curiosity. I've
actually had Dr Judd Burr on recently and we were talking.
One of his biggest pieces is, you know, curiosity and
getting curious with like genuinely curious and I know for
myself it took me a while to learn. I know
(44:31):
I didn't have to learn to be curious, but it
took me a while to trust curiosity. I think curiosity
and for me, curiosity and joy and all of those
feelings are kind of mixed together because, like you were
saying that, you know, if we've been in survival mode forever,
like you're not really getting curious in survival mode, right.
(44:52):
I think one of the biggest pieces for me has been,
like you're saying, patients, but also learning that now that
I'm not always in survival mode, when I'm more in
a thriving kind of space, knowing that I can trust
that space, learning that I can trust that space, learning
that I can trust my own curiosity, and these moments
of joy and even though I I'm not that's not
(45:15):
where I hang out all the time, I am having
more of those moments, And I just want everyone to
hear out there, if you feel like those aren't trustworthy
just yet or trustable, that it's okay to feel that
way because in in survival we have we haven't had
access to those places. And so if you're if you're like,
(45:37):
what the hell are we talking about right now. It's
okay too, It's okay to not know absolutely, and that
might actually be a beautiful place also to start, whether
you are welcoming and of curiosity or not. Is what
what does this remind me of? Where where in my
life the curiosity stop? Because you know, as you're talking
about curiosity, joy, there was a third one you said,
(46:00):
But I'm thinking those those belong to leave, those belong
to you know, those are qualities of our youngest selves,
because that was our nature. We would want to test
the waters to learn right, so meeting I suppose the
youngest parts of ourselves too in in that exploration. I
love that question. Where did curiosity enjoy and play? When
(46:23):
did I feel like those were welcome? When did that stop? Yeah?
And it would be interesting to note how how connected
those are with any pieces of shame. There's probably something
there I can think about. I mean, I remember, yeah,
being really young, and my dad actually often said, you're
so curious, and I thought it was such a bad thing.
(46:45):
In retrospect, I know that it wasn't. But I do
think that there was a long period of my life
where I actually really identified that that was something fundamentally
wrong with me. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I could talk to
you all day about all this stuff. But thank you
so much for for joining me and and opening your
heart to us. It's so vast and beautiful and I'm
(47:07):
so grateful. I always ask my guests about music, and
I know, I know you love music so much. When
we did our breath work sessions, Kate's like, I just
get to play DJ. This is my favorite part of
the whole thing, which I love to like, I love
putting music together for what I breathe. Yeah, I love
a good playlist, So I I do something called the
Holy five. So these could be songs like that are
(47:29):
moving you now, that have moved you throughout your life.
But just what are your Holy five? And and why
this is hard? It's hard, right, I know every guest
is like, oh my god, I spent so much time
on this. I feel like I could come up with ten,
but five was hard and also really exciting. The number
one is everybody wants to rule the world by tears
(47:51):
for fears. That's such a good one. Yeah. It was
the first tape that it was given to me. I
was a little tea. I was six years old. My
half brother gave that to me, and it was impactful.
(48:20):
Second one is how to Disappear Completely by Radio Ahead.
I've never heard that song. I've never heard that title.
Daryl's looking at me, like what, I've never heard that song.
I have to go listen just because of the title. Alone. Yeah,
(48:51):
that's amazing. You'll have to take a breath. It has
been by my side through some moments. Maybe it met
me in my despair. I'll say that that part of
me that that felt always alone in those feelings, I
feel like really was able to connect. That was one
of the things that you felt new you Yeah, yeah, exactly.
M Yeah, It's amazing how music can do that right.
(49:13):
It is amazing and truly some very pivotal moments in
my life. I I hold music so so close beside it.
Nobody but You by Charles Bradley No product work, so
(49:47):
a new one. I don't know that. Yeah, it's a
good one ever. Mind's men Dan Oh yeah yeah, so
and I had like an epic one of the best
content it's in my life Charles Bradley had called Commodore
in Vancouver. I'm gonna go for a twist. Now this
is gonna be girls, Girls, Girls by Jay Z it
(50:13):
like they're either gonna think I'm gonna say Motley Crewe
or jay Z, but it's jay Z When I'm girls,
I'm gonna scoop you with that cool singing on us fishing.
(50:33):
I love it. Oh my god, I love jay Z. Yeah.
So uh. One that I'm loving right now is Howling
by Rayax and specifically, um it's a Sophie Tucker remix,
so it takes it on like a dance element and
it's like eight minutes long. Oh nice, it's so good. God,
(51:04):
thank you. I love that song. Thank you for finally
telling me how to say his name. Ry X. I'm
like r y X. His voice is so amazing. I love, love,
love it. I'm gonna have to go look at that version.
He also has a beautiful album out now Live. Yeah,
(51:25):
it's it's gorgeous. I got the record. Yeah, so oh
you did? Oh fun? Do you click? Final? Yeah? I
love it me too a bit, but um yeah, I
love Final records. They sound so good. Thank you, my love,
Thank you You're the best, you too. I really appreciate it,
all right, I love you, And that, my friends, brings
(51:50):
us to the end of this very cozy, comfortable episode.
Of Holy Human. Thank you for spending this time with
Kate and myself, and you know I'd always love to
hear your thoughts, so please post them in the comments
wherever you're listening and share this with anyone who could
use a little more curiosity in their lives. On our
(52:11):
next Holy Human, I'll be joined by the incredible and
inspiring force of nature that is Terry Cole. She'll be
sharing some powerful perspectives on the significant benefits of that
creating boundaries have on your life and your relationships. And
trust me, you're going to want to listen to this
episode until then, keep the faith, keep loving each other,
(52:33):
and I love you. Holy Human with Me Leanne Rhymes
is a production of I Heart Radio
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