September 29, 2025 • 49 mins
Jameela Jamil's well known for using her voice to center important issues like period poverty, eating disorders, and discrimination against women - but she wasn't born that way. Ashlyn and Jameela discuss the power of divine femininity and how Jameela learned how to leave repression behind. Part of the secret: rush toward your crone era, destroy the patriarchy, and let spite lead the way. At almost 40, Jameela celebrates the second half of life - she knows herself better than ever, she's having better sex than ever, and she's more powerful than ever. Basically, become harder to kidnap and embrace pleasure wherever you find it.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, it's Ashland. I've been wanting to create a
space like this for a really long time. Wide Open
isn't just a podcast, It's an invitation my whole life.
As you know, I've been a part of teams and
locker rooms and communities where you learn real connection happens
when you show up fully, raw and unfiltered. That's what
(00:20):
I want to bring here is honest conversations about the
things that matter most identity, purpose, resilience, and the courage
it takes to live Wide Open. I started this podcast
because I believe stories can change us. They open doors,
they create belonging, and they spark movements. My goal with
Wide Open is to bring you into rooms and moments
(00:43):
that have shaped me in so many others, so that
together we can expand what's possible. I want this series
to inspire you. I want it to challenge you and
hopefully make you feel a little less alone. Recently, I
was lucky enough to sit in a circle at Gloria
Steinem's home where the feminist movement actually began. In this gathering,
(01:04):
we focused on women's health. Just imagine that a room
filled with women from all walks of life speaking truth
about our bodies, our rights, and the inequities we still
face today. What struck me was how powerful it felt
to be seen to be heard in a space like that,
no titles, no egos, just a collective will to fight
(01:28):
for something better. Gloria reminded us that health is political,
that caring for each other is a radical act. That
moment really deepened my own commitment to advocacy, whether it's
through my role as a board member of the HRC
or the Women's Sports Foundation, or how I show up
(01:49):
for my kids and this next generation. I know that visibility,
access and safe spaces are not optional, They're essential. And
I want this podcast to be another place where we
push those conversations forward, where we talk openly about equity
and inclusion and the future we're all responsible for building.
(02:12):
So thank you for being here. At the very beginning
of this journey, my promise was to keep it wide open,
to keep it vulnerable, curious, and most importantly real. I'm
excited for where we're going together today on Wide Open,
(02:36):
I'm sitting down with someone who refuses to be put
in a box. Jamila Jamil is actor, activist, writer, and
the brilliant mind behind Eyeway movement. She's used her platform
to challenge how we talk about bodies, power, and worth,
and she does it with humor, honesty, and the fire
that can't be ignored. From the good place to the
front lines of cultural conversations, Jamila has been unappolig jetically
(03:00):
herself and today I can't wait to talk about where
she's been, what she's learned, and what she's building next.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Hi, how are you?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I'm so good? Well, you know the world's on fire,
but doing okay with the current context of well, I guess,
how are you quite?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
It's quite a funny sort of like very typically woman,
but I guess also just our generation to be like
I'm so good, I'm amazing, and then the reality hits you, nigo,
but also very sad. Yeah, but it's a default answer,
isn't it to people? Please?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Really positive answer. Yeah, but I also think it's like,
yeah it is. I'm turning forty in October, which I
think we're the same age. You're turning forty, correct, yes,
in February, and okay, so we're very close. I love
this and I'm just like, wow, I never thought at
forty be where we are now. As women in the landscape.
(04:03):
I'm just like just a little gutted and ready to
roll my sleeves up and get to work because we
need a lot of action. And I think that's what
what I am so drawn to you over is your
ability to show up so true to yourself and really
push the envelope when it comes to like really hard conversations,
(04:27):
which I find so powerful. And I'm curious, like I
want to hear your story of how you came to
this and how you found your voice and what were
you like moving through the world as a young girl,
because not everyone feels so confident and really living their
(04:48):
truth and openly true to the public and their following
without being so worried about controversy and backlash.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Well, you know, I was quite a quiet child and teenager.
I didn't have lots of thoughts and opinions out loud,
and this probably carried on through to you know, I
was starting to find my voice around nineteen twenty about
certain issues, eating disorder, culture, etc. But by the time
(05:19):
I was twenty six, I was just so repressed of
everything that I tried to commit suicide. And it was
the second time i'd tried, and I knew I would
try again if I didn't change everything about my life.
And I found out that repression causes depression, and I thought,
that's probably what's going on here as to why I'm
(05:41):
so in such a dark and hopeless place, is because
I've got so much built up in me over my
life that it feels untenable to be able to unravel it.
So it's easier just to tap out. So I thought, Okay,
if I'm going to stick around and try again, I
have to change everything really radically and abandon any former
(06:02):
belief or behavior that I used to hold. And so
that meant that I lived in upside downland, and I
entered into a ten year crash dummy test as to
what my life would look like if I did everything
in the reverse of what I'd done at that point.
So that meant never holding my tongue about anything ever.
(06:23):
It meant acting with autonomy, it meant doing what I wanted.
It meant rebelling in every way that I wanted to
rebel and telling the truth to anyone who would listen
about what I really thought about society. And so I
culled a lot of people in my life. I moved country,
I moved, you know, to the other side of the world.
(06:44):
I left my relationship. I had, you know, an abortion,
which is something that the previous me probably would have
felt too scared and too guilty to do. I just
I seized my autonomy and my mental health proper went away.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Wow. So that was your moment of being aware of
the power you held.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, And I mean, look, that's not going to be
the case for everyone. Lots of people have chemical imbalances
that lead to mental health issues, but mine would would
directly link to swallowing abuse and trauma and pushing it down.
And you know, it's just you don't have a bottomless
pit to hide all of that pain in. At some point,
you like it's going to come back up. And mine
(07:27):
came back up quite young, at twenty six, and I
had a nervous breakdown and I've never looked back. And
I've only had a few small dips since then. But
other than that, I've been like, not just stable, but
happy and fulfilled. And I feel very strong, which I
never felt in my early life.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I love your vulnerability and open openness because I do
think the way you speak about it, it's your superpower.
It's not like your crutch. It's not like it's termed
mean your scars into power, which I really think I
live my life through it as well. I think it's
(08:06):
so important, and I think for so long we've been
told to be quiet about those moments in life, and
it's so personal and it's not for everyone, but I
think it's such a learning moment and pivotal moment in
the becoming that if we don't share it, we don't
feel that community in that belonging.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Would you agree, Yeah, well, I think it's just patriarchal.
It's a patriarchal belief that we should withhold and refrain
and have a stiff up a lip. That's very it's
toxic masculinity that's been imposed upon women. Divine femininity means
sharing and building community. I mean, gossip is something that
was created by women who needed to exchange vital life
(08:48):
saving information. We open our mouths like femininity means telling
the truth to one another, and so I think part
of my truly embracing femininity was to be able to
use my words and communicate and reach out across to
other women and make sure that we were all exchanging
the truth. So I find it very very misogynist or patriarchal.
(09:14):
I'd say to hold it in and patriarchy kills. Look
at the states and men. Look at the suicide statistics
of men. Look at the mental health statistics of Mendal company.
You know, violent murderers are men. Violent members of society
are men like they are in crisis. And partially it's
because they have never been instructed or allowed or encouraged
(09:35):
to use their words. And so the same thing that
was killing them was killing me, and I decided to
abandon it and saved my life.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
It's beautiful, it's beautifully said. Thank you for sharing that.
I'm curious, though, why did you choose to be so
outspoken about women's health, And because it is a You've
become so blunt, and a lot of people are not
used to women speaking so openly about their bodies and
(10:01):
their experiences, because it's like you open yourself to a
bunch of controversy all the time. Because this landscape of
social media, everyone has something to say. But why did
you choose that specific part to advocate so strongly for
the last several decades.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I think I don't know. I think partially it's because
I almost died from this shit, so I don't want
anyone else to suffer. And if I could recycle all
that pain and trauma and all those mistakes into stopping
someone else from making them, you know, even if it's
just one life I was able to alter or save,
that's enough. That's worth taking on global dislike or global disrepute.
(10:46):
Like it's okay for me not to be liked by
a bunch of fucking strangers. I don't like them either.
I don't like anyone incredibly unfriendly, you know. So I've
got about thirteen people in my life who I hold
very dear to me, and you know, I'm really not
that fuss about what any Marlon Rando thinks about me,
and they shouldn't be fussed about what I think about them.
(11:07):
So in the same way that I don't walk around
thinking loving thoughts about everyone, I don't expect everyone to
have loving thoughts about me. And there's a tremendous peace
to that. Again, it's patriarchy that teaches women that it's,
you know, our job to be liked. We just don't
teach men or boys that ever. We teach them to
go out there and achieve and become the best that
they can be. And you know a bunch of also
(11:28):
bullshit things that we teach boys and men, but with women,
we burden them with this task to be liked and
believed and understood and be palatable. And I can't think
of anything more exhausting or boring than being palatable to everyone.
Everyone's so unique and truth yes, you know what I mean,
(11:49):
like all kinds of different foods or different sex things,
or people who enjoy someone shitting on their chest. You know,
I am I to try to please everyone sexually, physically, emotionally, intellectually.
One size does not fit all, and so I'm just
I'd prefer to find my community and actually be myself
(12:11):
with them. So I think the fact that I knew
that I was whatever had broken me free from that
societal expectation meant that I knew that that was my superpower.
Was not giving a shit what other people's like, genuinely
being okay with you know, never wanting to hurt people,
never wanting to offend people. That was always something I
(12:33):
did by accident. But not being okay was not being
liked or people finding me annoying was my superpower, and
so I was like, okay, well, I don't really give
a shit if this industry kicks me out, because I
didn't plan on being in it anywhere. I was an
English teacher, you know, who got discovered and then put
on television, and then The Good Place was my first
ever acting audition. I just got very, very lucky in
(12:54):
my career, and so I always looked at the career
as a trojan horse to make my point. So I
had never had anything to lose. And the reason that
I get attacked a lot by the media is because
I attack the people that fund the media, and so
I'm very dangerous because I've got nothing to lose. They
can't threaten me by taking my job away. They can't
(13:16):
threaten me by hurting my reputation and taking brand deals
away because that was never my plan anyway. So I'm living.
I've always considered myself to be living in this industry
on very borrowed time, and I think that's what makes
me scary, you knowing there's nothing more dangerous than someone
who's got nothing to lose. That are used to seeing
that in the form of a woman.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yes, that part, but you are giving other women permission
to do so. And I love the platforms you use
to speak up about the things that people are a
little scared or shameful to do, to go against the green.
I feel like we're so taught to follow in line.
You have to be this way, and any time we
(13:57):
have an opinion like you said, or speak up, just
like oh she's controversial, Oh she's an asshole, or she's
a bit.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Annoying annoyingly the one that is the most effective and
getting women shut up. Yeah, I mean it's so strange
and I don't really mind. If I don't really mind
being called annoying. It is who who has ever threatened
a system and not been annoying. All the people that
we think are cool are silent. Specifically, the women, the
(14:26):
women that are our fads are the ones who don't
ruffle any feathers, who just come out and they're obediently thin,
and they have perfect skin, and they look great and
they fit whatever trend is going on now, and they
don't really get political. Those the women who we look
at as the internet's faves. We've never looked at people
who challenge systems and been like, oh, they're so cool,
(14:48):
because they're not. You have to be fucking annoying. It's jarring,
it's irritating, or holding a mirror up to society or
pointing out hypocrisy. At that part, you're delivering information imperfectly
because you're you know, you'll learn that you're going along.
It's all. It's messy work, and you have to be
prepared to be seen as messy because you're not You're
not going along, you know, with the with the tide.
(15:12):
And so how could you not piss people off for
a variety of reasons that are partially your fault, or
just because you're pointing out something very uncomfortable. I exist
in a hyper focus on inconvenient truths, and so it
makes me an inconvenient person. It fucks people off, And
that's okay because ultimately, as long as I'm getting my
(15:34):
point across, that's the main goal.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
And you're doing it very well, and I'm just trying
to follow in your footsteps a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Oh just Li, You're just plenty, You're doing so much.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment. After
this brief message from our sponsors. I appreciate that, but
I'm cure curious. What was it for you to just
be like bucket I'm going to pick pack my bags.
I'm going to go to Hollywood. I'm going to give
(16:08):
this a girl, and I get this audition for the
good Place and I land it and here's my life. Now.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
None of it was a sort of thought out plan.
It was It's I'm a very reactive person, which I
think if you've ever followed me on the internet probably so.
It's very much so. You know, it's a fuck around
and find out lifestyle, but in a fun positive way
where I'm excited to see what's going to happen. And again,
(16:39):
this kind of trails back to my lack of care
as to my reputation. Right, I take risks, I think, oh,
that would be funny to try, and if I fail,
that'll be funny. And if I embarrass myself, I'll find
that funny. My friends will find that funny. So because
I'm never trying to impress anyone ever, it means that
(17:00):
I have this freedom to make some truly mad decisions
all the time, to be like, maybe I'm just gonna
pack up my shit and abandon my career and move
to the other side of the world when no one
knows who I am. Maybe I'm going to go and
do this. Maybe I'm going to do that. Maybe I'm
going to try music production, Maybe I'm gonna try acting.
Maybe I'm going to become a writer, Maybe I'm gonna
become an advocate of all these different things that I try.
I just throw myself in at the deep end, because
(17:22):
that's what men are taught to do. Men are not
told to be perfect from the beginning. And so it's just,
you know, I think, I just I think true feminism
is not hating men. It's just wanting equality. And equality
means that I get to live my life with the
same peace and lack of burden that men get to
live theirs with. And I very much so look at
the way that my boyfriend lives his life, and I
(17:44):
try to match that same energy. I try to make
sure we get ready for the same amount of time,
and we you know, we go after our dreams in
the same way, and we live as on apologetically as
each other. And he's great at encouraging me to do so.
He never tries to make me smaller.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Well, that's that's also very important. And I'm curious because
I spoke, I spoke on this, you know, last week
on a panel and I want to ask you because
I do think it's so important and I think you
are leading the pack when it comes to this. So
I'm curious what's your what's your take on like failure
and your take on kind of like stepping outside the box,
(18:23):
because what I'll say is your ability to just run
with things and try it. You're you move differently than
most women. And I'm curious because I spoke about this
the other day as an athlete who did the same thing.
I just wasn't scared to fail. I fucking tried everything relentlessly,
(18:44):
and I I didn't care what happened because I knew
every moment was a learning lesson. And I think so
many women are so fucking scared to fail and sit
in fear that they choose comfort, that they choose this
marriage because it's easy and I have this, you know,
the kids and this, And what is it about you?
(19:06):
How do you move through life and your concept of failure,
because clearly you didn't give a shit, and I think
that makes you really special.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I think I'm may be more afraid of something else
than I am failure, and that is the words. What
if I'm more afraid of regret than I am a failure.
I'm more afraid of being haunted by the decisions that
I made that stopped me from finding out what could
have happened. That to me, is much scarier than failure.
(19:36):
And I watch a significant amount of videos of people,
you know, who are either dying or at the end
of their life, or literally on a deathbed, you know,
being interviewed about what they would have done differently, And
especially when it comes to women, it is I must
be over ninety percent of the women who were just
like I wish I hadn't lived my life according to
(19:57):
what other people thought. I wish I'd rebelled more. I
wish I'd behaved worse. And so, you know, I think
it's almost it feels almost like a conspiracy, the way
that we push older women out of the way and
we get rid of them and we send them to
sit by a window. You know, in Western culture, we
(20:20):
don't race the elderly and the lessons of the elderly.
We don't respect our elders. We disrespect older women, specifically
older women, and we hide them and we tell them
to distract themselves or the race against time and gravity,
because older women will tell us the truth. And I
think that truth is to rebel and to fight back,
and to be disobedient and to live a life for
(20:42):
yourself and to chase pleasure and comfort and autonomy. And
I guess, and I'm trying. I'm racing towards my Crone era.
Other women fear their Crone era, whereas I'm desperate to
get there. And I guess I've been kind of launched
micron era early to try and get all the information
(21:03):
I can out to the young ones before I get
pushed out and put by a window, although that'd be
very difficult to do to me. But I don't see
that genuine. It's a genuine conspiracy to shut older women up.
We used to really respect. The word krone was something
that was not negative, you know. The word spinster was
(21:23):
not a negative word. That all of these words have
been turned into something dark and sad by patriarchy. Older
women have the key, They have all of the answers,
not just for women but also for men. Therefore they
are a threat to society. Therefore they must be removed, erased,
you know. And whenever we show them out in public,
(21:44):
we must make them perform use you know, every fucking
TV show I see with actresses over fifty. It's so blurred.
I don't know if I'm watching AI or YEA.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
The beauty effect. It's like this filter that we don't.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Have on the men, the men who age appropriate with
these women. They look like pedophiles, you know, because the
girl looks like a teenager, but she's fifty. It's ridiculous,
it's very distracting. It's very hard to get lost in
a TV show anymore with an actress over forty because
of how much they blur her face. It's like a
cartoon I suddenly stepped onto the screen. It really pisses
me off.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, and you've been really outspoken lately about the beauty
standard and what's going on in this current landscape, and listen,
this is this is a conversation that is really gonna
shift the landscape of how we view beauty, and I
think we're really going backwards. So I'm glad that you
kind of just put us in that topic because you know,
(22:40):
you recently spoke about these you know, gpl ones or
all of these different drugs that are coming out now
that are making people very very thin. And I just
am curious as someone who's advocating so hard and this space, Like,
(23:01):
are you worried what the media is doing now because
we were so body positive and we've kind of flipped,
flipped a little switch and we're going backwards because now
everything is thin, thin, thin, thin, thin. And you know,
recently you spoke on the Serena Williams thing. I'm curious
if you could elaborate on your feeling and thoughts as
(23:23):
someone who's been advocating for so long about body positivity
and all the stuff you've had to go through and
you've experienced firsthand. Has this been hard?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Oh, it's definitely hard and pressing, But it's also just
historically accurate that every time the world leads towards conservatism
and fascism, beauty standards for women become more restrictive and constrictive. Right, So,
so every time you trap back through history, anytime there
is an authoritarian uprising, we always see women expected to
become very small, very frail. And the reason women are
(23:56):
supposed to look small and frail. Listen, just to be clear,
anyone who needs a GLP one should take a GOLP one.
They could be worth saving medications. I talk about the
abuse of golp ones to fit a very temporary beauty standard,
one that always comes along for women to look specifically fragile.
You know, you're an athlete. You don't want to look
fragile or to be fragile. Strength is your superpower. Strength
(24:19):
is women's superpower, while tolerance and our strength is what
makes us so exceptional. And it's because of an insecure
patriarchy that in order for them to look big and
to feel big and strong, they need us to be
small and thinner because they don't feel like they can
rise to the challenge. Similarly, with the fact that women
are out, you know, outrunning men when it comes to school,
(24:43):
higher education. We're buying homes faster than men are. You know,
at a younger age. Women are climbing ladders faster than men,
in spite of being held back up until maybe thirty
or forty years ago, beyond all belief, not even able
to have our own bank accounts. And so the men
have been emasculated by other men on the internet to
(25:04):
believe that they are incapable of rising up to women's level.
So the only possible avenue is to bring women back down.
And I find that very sad and emasculating for men.
I think that's very offensive to men and boys to
be told, oh, no, you wouldn't possibly be able to
become more emotionally intelligent or desirable to women based on
(25:25):
your personality, So you're just going to have to take
away women's voting rights. Or no, women understand too much,
we need to take away their education. I'll no, women
are speaking to each other too much. We need to
stop them from speaking on the internet. How sad to
believe to have no growth mindset whatsoever, and had to
have a grown man in his fifties lecture you with
a cigar in his mouth about how bringing bitches down
(25:48):
is the only way to stay on top. Imagine making
men feel like that. It's like a glass ceiling that's
there for men, an emotional glass ceiling. I find it
very pathetic and sad for those men. I'm you know,
I feel very bad for the boys that are being
told this. And women have got experience of being told
you'll never do better than this, so we know how
that feels. And it's very very dark. And think God,
(26:10):
women have pushed each other through that ceiling to start
to achieve. But I do think we're rolling backwards, but
specifically regarding the beauty standards of extreme use. You know,
despite however old you are, like how normalized the facelift
has become. How normalized botox was, and we were told
it was safe, and then we found out it wasn't safe.
So we were told filler is much safer, and philler's
(26:32):
great because it dissolves within six months. And now we
found out that philler did not in fact dissolve within
six months, and two years later people are still of
finding it on MRIs and actually it's not good for you,
and it's not good for your immune system. And you know,
facelifts only last I think five to ten years, and
you have to have another one and eventually you run
out of skin. So it's just this endless pursuit of use.
But my point is is that this obsession always comes
(26:53):
along when women need to be distracted, when women are
doing too well, when we need our eyes taken off
the ball is when the most obscene beauty standards are
imposed upon us. And these are this is the most
powerful women have ever been in the world, and this
is the most obscene our beauty standards have ever been
forever use for ever thinness, fighting, achieving the you know,
(27:13):
winning against time and gravity, obsessed with collagen, obsessed with hairlessness.
All very pedophilic. Like, everything's very pedophilic, because we have,
you know, a world that is being largely navigated by
a small minority of pervert men who want to have
sex with teenagers, who want to normalize their desire to
have sex with teenagers, so they have normalized the beauty
(27:37):
standard being as close to teenager as possible, so that
it doesn't look freakish for them to want to have
sex with people who are practically children. And these, this
small group of pedophiles, have managed to control our entire
beauty standard. There's plenty of men. I'm with a man
(27:57):
who is attracted to grown women. There are plenty of
men I know who do not have fancy teenage girls,
whose preference is not teenage girls, and whose preference isn't
super skinny, and whose preference isn't white skin or a
button nose or the doe eyes.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yes, there are many men whose preference isn't tall and
thin or shortened. There are men who love musterly women.
There are all kinds of different beauty standards out there,
and different preferences. Women fancy different things in other women.
It's truly bizarre how many of us are expected to
fall in line with this uniform of beauty standard. It
(28:37):
makes no sense to me. It's truly just pedophilia, fascism,
and conservatism.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So I'm curious what advice would you have for this
younger generation who are now rethinking how they want to
live in their own body because of what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
First of all, you have to be very careful about
who you're following online. I think it's something like ninety
seconds from when you log on as a young woman
or a teenage girl before you are directed. Like before
content is directed towards you, that is telling you to
alter your appearance and eating disordered content for example. So
you're being hunted via algorithms by predatory content to make
(29:18):
you feel bad about the way you look. So you'll
spend your hard earned money in a world where you
don't make as much money as men, spend all of
your money on fixing something that was never broken. When
it comes to your aesthetic, I would also say that
something that really helped me, and I don't know if
a lot of people feel this way, but I'm very
powered by spite. And every time I look in the
(29:40):
mirror and think a negative thought about myself, I imagine
a man making more money from that thought as a
man is there's a group of men who want me
to feel that way, who are going to get richer
if I feel that way and do.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Something about it. And I need to do.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
That idea of I love the idea of spiting their
by choosing myself and not succumbing to their desires, their
pervert desires of what I'm supposed to look like and
how I'm supposed to live my life. And third of all,
and this is probably the most important thing, is that
(30:17):
no one cares about the second half of your life,
as in patriarchy doesn't care about the second half of
your life. And the second half of your life is
when shit gets really great. Right, Yeah, this is I
can feel the turn happening of me being the happiest
I've ever been, having the best sex I've ever had.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Say it again, Say it again, say it again.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Turning forty like I cannot get to my forties fast enough.
I've never felt more sane, more whole. I've never understood
the world better. I've never understood myself better. I am
at ease now. Yes, Now, this is the bit where
women become really scary to men who are insecure, and
so they don't care what happens to us, which is
(30:59):
why they sell us all of these quick fixed things
that have tremendous damage that can be done that will
show up later. Right, So, if you don't eat enough,
you will develop osteoporosis, which is a lack of bone density,
which is going to make you brittle. So when you
just bang your arm or you fall over, you'll break
a hip, You'll break your arm. You will become a
(31:19):
brittle older woman. And I don't mean an old old
old like ninety year old. I mean forties, fifties. This
stuff will start to ruin your life. You will thin
your heart, you will destroy your mental health, you will
destroy your your gut microbiome. You will, which will then
in turn impact your ability to produce serotonin and dopamine.
You will fuck up your teeth, you will fuck up
(31:42):
your hair, you will you will spend I think this
is something like it's something like eighteen years is on
average how much of a woman's life she spends thinking
about her body and diet culture.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Really, Yes, I was one.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Study I read, but they were estimating how much of
our lives. So I'm begging you, if you want to
be a wild, strong, grown woman who feels happy and
healthy and lives a long, strong life, please eat properly,
stay away from anyone who's discouraging you from doing so.
(32:17):
Learn about proper nutrition, Learn how to nourish yourself, lift weight,
get strong, become harder to kidnap.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
God, So this like slogan going viral on TikTok that
was like, stay skinny, stay safe.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
What the smaller and the lighter you are, the easier
you are to kidnap. Right, you need to learn how
to fight. You need to learn how to fucking beat
someone up. I think the.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Fact that we have to even think about this is
just so ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It's so ridiculous. But look at the world right now.
You know you've got people dressing up as ice agents,
kidnapping women and sexually assaulting them. This is not a
time to be frail. This is of time to be
skinny and be easier to lift and carry away in
a van. This is the time to be We should
really be getting as fat as possible, and as heavy
as possible, and as strong as strong. I know you
(33:12):
should be wearing like anchors on our ankles. You know
this is a time to be immovable, like I want
to wear armor made like with spikes all over it.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Right now, I am one word yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
You know. I want to get as strong as possible.
I'm learning how to fight at the moment. It feels amazing.
It's changed my gait.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I love this. Stay tuned. I'll be back in just
a moment after this brief message from our sponsors. Tell
me more. Because you speak so much about body positivity
and the movements, your period, poverty, women's health. You advocate
(33:59):
for so much. What do you do for yourself to
take care of your body?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Well, I mostly walk and run around with my dogs,
but boxing is very important to me.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Well, I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I like to hit. It has massively reduced my rage
because like getting out somewhere, it's very important to get
your rage out, especially as I'm hurtling towards perimenopause. And
then I just eat very well. I eat delicious, nutritious food.
I eat what I crave. I don't diet anymore. I
(34:33):
don't restrict. When I feel as though the clothes are
too small, I won't wear the clothes. I'm not. I
don't participate like I was supposed to go and do
a bunch of shows that I was supposed to go
to as part of my job, you know, fashion shows,
et cetera. And I tried on the clothes and the
clothes are too small. Now my options are I can
(34:54):
spend one thousand pounds of my own money to alter
each item and feel bad myself and uncomfortable, or I
can go well, no, fuck you, I'm not going there.
Like enjoy not having you know, certain people turn up
to your shows because you're so untalented. You couldn't design
(35:14):
something for an adult a variety of adult woman bodies.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
It's so true.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
So you know, like I just protect I protect my
mental health in that way. If I get less jobs
because I'm not super skinny and because I don't have
you know, a very very tight face of an eighteen
year old, then maybe I'm just not supposed to work
in this industry. But I refuse to. You know, women
are already at so much risk and of so many things.
So we have the most autoimmune disorders, we're constantly being
(35:45):
We're endangered by men everywhere we go, not to strangers,
but more so the ones that we know in our
own homes. It's like, am I not in enough danger
already that I have stanger myself that I have to
get a Brazilian butt lift, and then that they kill
loads of people. And then now people have been told
I know, actually we don't want you to have an ass,
so they're getting their Brazilian butt lifts so scary, their
(36:06):
implants are removed. It's like in and out, in outshake
it all about, like, what what is this? I'm in
enough pain, like my friends haveing demetrious, like pcos we
have most of the automune, or doesn't we have? Women
are struggling enough, We go through enough pain. I get
my period every month. I have to exist in this
(36:26):
world where reproductive rights are being taken away, well, gynecological
health has been taken away, well, where our health research
and studies are being deleted in perpetuity. Why on earth
would I subject myself to more pain, more risk. All
these things carry significant risks, lifelong risks. They can kill you,
They kill people, these things. Why would I do that voluntarily?
(36:49):
In a world that's already trying so hard to kill me.
Why would I hate them?
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Because we are tall that our job is to care
for everybody else but our fucking self, and that that's
why we're dying earlier, That's why men need women to
live longer lives and we live shorter because we are constantly,
always taking care of other people besides ourselves.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
This is why I refuse to get married or have children.
That's for my personal decision was just no, I've lived
a life of service. I can't be bothered anymore. I'm
not doing anything else now for anyone else. I will,
you know, exist in my advocacy within that boundary, but
outside of that, this life is for me. And as
I kind of alluded to earlier, women are taught that,
(37:34):
you know, pleasure is a privilege and not a right,
and that is incorrect. That is false propaganda. Life is
for pleasure and you should be seeking it everywhere you can,
especially now during these terrible times. And this life is
yours to live, and you will regret it so much
if you do not try and find out who you
are really are and what you're really capable of. You know,
(37:56):
I was talking about this recently, on a podcast that
I went to a party of all lesbians. Right there
was normally, when I go to a gay party, it's
predominantly gay men, and then you've got some gay women
and for some reason they don't normally fraternize together. In England,
I guess as much, but it didn't feel quite separate.
So I went to a party of almost exclusively lesbians
(38:18):
and for the first time ever was in a room
of all women expressing themselves, dressed comfortably, being unbelievably funny,
out loud and unapologetically being opinionated, arguing with each other
without it becoming a fight. Everyone felt so secure. There
was such a feeling of safety and ease in the room.
(38:40):
There was pizza and women were eating it, and I
just thought, right, this is who all women would have
been if men hadn't been looking, and you know gay women.
Of course, I go through so many different types of
scrutiny and being forced into all kinds of different boxes.
But even by women have this. By women still feel
some sort of responsibility to morph themselves into what would
(39:03):
be attractive to the male gays. Lesbians, in particular, lesbians
who realized they were lesbian young appear to have to
me from all the women I know who are lesbians,
who have always known they are lesbians or from when
they were very young children, is they have grown into
the person they were always supposed to be so much
faster than straight and by ways that I know, And
(39:25):
I feel as though all women should be raised in
a commune of lesbians.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
There we are because they nailed it.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Because without the male, gaye is the only way you're
going to learn who you really are. And these women
were so self actualized and so joyous and so unapologetic,
and it just made me very happy and very sad
all at the same time to think of how many
of my friends reduced themselves even when there are no
men present. Because if you do that enough in your
(39:54):
entire life, if you make yourself small for long enough,
it's a kind of defe fault setting. And it's only
in tiny bursts of one on one contact with another
woman that you might let out some of your true
inner goblin. And that's devastating. So even when women are
in a crowd, they're just still in a group together.
They're still hiding parts themselves from themselves. Women don't know
(40:18):
how funny they are to themselves. They don't know how
smart they are, how capable, how opinionated they actually are,
because they're self censoring. And so my life is about
no longer self censoring, figuring out who I am, removing
the mask, and encouraging other women to do the same.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
And you're also saying, going go to more lesbian parties.
I'm hearing.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
And here I was talking recently with an older woman,
you know, who's my kind of go to crone, about
the rise of the four B movement. You know, this
is I think it started in Korea, right South Korea,
where women are kind of moving into communes with one
another handling.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
It's happening all over the world men, and now that's.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Happening all over the world. Saying that to her, and
she said, what do you think convents really were? And
it hadn't really occurred to me.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
She was like it was.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
She was like, making it about God was the only
way to make that socially acceptable for women to go,
Oh my god, I'm so fucking done with men. Yeah,
I'm just going to piss off here to this just
wonderful commune of women and we'll all wear the same
outfit and whatever and just live in peace, and it
will be a comfortable outfit, peace and ease, peace and
(41:28):
ease and safety. And they've made themselves because of the
you know, you know, because of God, untouchable, and so
they were generally left alone. And so I realized and
it hadn't for some reason, it had never occurred to me.
I really looked at it just as a religious thing,
and they were like, She was like, no, like that's
something that we did to get away from.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Them, exactly exactly. Oh, it's so good and I'm glad
we agree on this. My lesbian group of friends, we
always are talking about where where are we going to
buy just a whole compound of all of us just
to go live in peace because we need it especially
right now.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
But I will say this, I for for those of
you who don't know about your podcast, Wrong Turns. It
is fucking hilarious. And before we run out of time,
I really want you to talk about your podcast because
it's so different in the landscape now of everyone and
everyone has podcasts everyone, But what I love is like
(42:29):
yours is light and it's like it's so tastefully done
in a way that's so in your fucking face. I
really want you to talk about why you chose to
do it, what you know. Our viewers and listeners maybe
have never tuned in. They should. It's called Wrong Turns,
but tell us about the podcast and why.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
It's sort of it goes in line with what I'm saying,
but also is nothing like how I am. I guess
in my kind of day to day version of me
that people know, which is that I talk a lot
about very serious things and social structures, et cetera, and
wrong t is my kind of escape from that, to
exist only in the absurd and silly. So it's a
comedy disaster podcast about all the most embarrassing shit we've
(43:07):
ever done, or ever created or experienced that has no
great silver lining. There's no inspiring pearl of wisdom shoved
up your ass at the end of a disaster story.
It's just unabashed mortification. And it's the podcast. Our tagline
is It's where dignity goes to die. And where it
(43:29):
really falls in line with everything I stand for is
it's me and all of these other brilliant people, just
without shame, telling the truth about what appalling little gremlins
we all really are. And it's been so liberating to
say so many humiliating stories out loud in the public
(43:51):
and just have them live there and have people and
women in particular bond back to me and relate to
what I've said and the humiliating things I've done or undergone.
And so it's a very bonding podcast where you will
feel less alone in the mistakes you've made, in the
terrible things you have experienced. It's very trauma free, it's
very very silly, very surviceable, and it's a kind of
(44:12):
it's just a thirty five minute escape every Thursday from
this dumpster fire earth where you can just laugh and
enjoy the world for a second and feel less alone.
I think, you know, it goes against perfection culture, it
goes against inspiration culture with anti inspiration pro commiseration, and
I think it's just this much needed respite. IM always
(44:33):
thinking about what I need in the world, and then
when I can't find it, I make it. I love it,
and so this was just something that I needed as
an outlet, and people seem to really enjoy it, so
it's nice.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
It is exactly what we need right now. So thank
you for being the education piece, but also the lateness,
like it's just really beautifully done, and more people need
to tune in, so every one out there turn into
Wrong Turns because it is absolutely an incredible podcast. And
I'm curious for a woman who does so fucking much,
(45:09):
I can't imagine you even have time to do anything enjoyable.
But what's next for you?
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I don't know. I don't I don't think I want
to do very much anymore. I think I think I
think i'd like to rest. I'm writing, I'm writing a
film and a TV show and toying with a book.
I write on substack. I write very, very very blunt
(45:36):
essays on substack, all the things that I'm not allowed
to say on social media. It's so good i'll get
blocked by the algorithm. It's called a low desire to please,
which is a review that my dog got from a
training school. They said he's very smart, but he has
a low desire to please, And I think, oh, fuck
at that is that my little That's a feminist slogan.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Yes, it's exactly how I feel.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
I have a low desire to please. I've written a
very unapologetic substact that you can read every week. But
I think I want to spend more time living with
my loved one, spending time with my dogs, enjoying what's
left of the freedom of the earth, and seeing things
in the world of putting the sun on my skin.
I don't know about you. I don't feel terribly ambitious
(46:20):
when it comes to projects. I feel very ambitious when
it comes to getting the word out there to the world.
But I also feel very inclined to practice what I preach,
which is that as women, we have suffered enough and
the world is horrible and we must seek that pleasure.
So I, personally, for now anyway, I'm on a mission
(46:41):
to pleasure before the hot flushes start.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yes, and I'm with you, I'm like, what are we
about to get into?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I have no more desire to really achieve anything now.
I just want to have fun. Let's do that feels
That feels like I don't know sacrilege to say, but
I but you know, we need balance in this world,
and if I'm going to fight the fight, I need.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
To also need balance, especially right now. And I appreciate
what you how you show up in this world and
bringing everyone with you and giving people permission to live
life this way through this lens.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Well, likewise. Likewise, you face so much misogyny and so
much shit also from other women who have been indoctrinated
by misogyny. And I really appreciate the way that you
show up publicly and what you do with your platform
like that, what you do is not easier. And then
you've also been putting your body on the line, you know,
So it's a three to sixty years oult. And I
(47:39):
really appreciate humans like you for doing what you do
and making a statement out of it, because you have
clearly inspired so many young women and all of it.
I don't know about you, but for me, all of
the shit becomes worth it if I can turn it
into goals for someone else. Yes, that part and part
that's the power of women. That's the magic of women.
(48:01):
And that's why they're trying so hard to destroy us,
because we're so good, we're so wholesome, we're so strong,
we're so powerful, we're so intuitive. You only ever seek
to destroy something you're terrified of. If they didn't think
we were a threat, they would leave us alone. They
are going above and beyond and so far out of
their way to hold us back and subjugate us because
they're terrified, yes, of what would happen if we actually
(48:24):
stopped thinking about our skincare and our weight and our
age and actually started to go after what we want
in this world, and so to do it out of spite.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
You are always dropping bombs.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Thank you so much for being on the show this week.
Thank you for being vulnerable and wide Open and most
importantly yourself. And I appreciate the fight, the good fight
that you choose to do every day in the way
you show up so I see.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
You on the phone line. Mate.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
If we out listen, we will be holding hands on
the front line. We will not stop. And I think
that's what makes us unique and special and I appreciate
you taking the time today we all do. Thank you
everyone for tuning in to another episode of Wide Open,
and we'll see you next week. Wide Open with Ashlin
(49:16):
Harris is an iHeart women's sports production. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronov,
and Lucy Jones. Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive
producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our
(49:40):
editors are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder and I'm your
host Ashlyn Harris.
Hi everyone, it's Ashland. I've been wanting to create a
space like this for a really long time. Wide Open
isn't just a podcast, It's an invitation my whole life.
As you know, I've been a part of teams and
locker rooms and communities where you learn real connection happens
when you show up fully, raw and unfiltered. That's what
(00:20):
I want to bring here is honest conversations about the
things that matter most identity, purpose, resilience, and the courage
it takes to live Wide Open. I started this podcast
because I believe stories can change us. They open doors,
they create belonging, and they spark movements. My goal with
Wide Open is to bring you into rooms and moments
(00:43):
that have shaped me in so many others, so that
together we can expand what's possible. I want this series
to inspire you. I want it to challenge you and
hopefully make you feel a little less alone. Recently, I
was lucky enough to sit in a circle at Gloria
Steinem's home where the feminist movement actually began. In this gathering,
(01:04):
we focused on women's health. Just imagine that a room
filled with women from all walks of life speaking truth
about our bodies, our rights, and the inequities we still
face today. What struck me was how powerful it felt
to be seen to be heard in a space like that,
no titles, no egos, just a collective will to fight
(01:28):
for something better. Gloria reminded us that health is political,
that caring for each other is a radical act. That
moment really deepened my own commitment to advocacy, whether it's
through my role as a board member of the HRC
or the Women's Sports Foundation, or how I show up
(01:49):
for my kids and this next generation. I know that visibility,
access and safe spaces are not optional, They're essential. And
I want this podcast to be another place where we
push those conversations forward, where we talk openly about equity
and inclusion and the future we're all responsible for building.
(02:12):
So thank you for being here. At the very beginning
of this journey, my promise was to keep it wide open,
to keep it vulnerable, curious, and most importantly real. I'm
excited for where we're going together today on Wide Open,
(02:36):
I'm sitting down with someone who refuses to be put
in a box. Jamila Jamil is actor, activist, writer, and
the brilliant mind behind Eyeway movement. She's used her platform
to challenge how we talk about bodies, power, and worth,
and she does it with humor, honesty, and the fire
that can't be ignored. From the good place to the
front lines of cultural conversations, Jamila has been unappolig jetically
(03:00):
herself and today I can't wait to talk about where
she's been, what she's learned, and what she's building next.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Hi, how are you?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I'm so good? Well, you know the world's on fire,
but doing okay with the current context of well, I guess,
how are you quite?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
It's quite a funny sort of like very typically woman,
but I guess also just our generation to be like
I'm so good, I'm amazing, and then the reality hits you, nigo,
but also very sad. Yeah, but it's a default answer,
isn't it to people? Please?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Really positive answer. Yeah, but I also think it's like,
yeah it is. I'm turning forty in October, which I
think we're the same age. You're turning forty, correct, yes,
in February, and okay, so we're very close. I love
this and I'm just like, wow, I never thought at
forty be where we are now. As women in the landscape.
(04:03):
I'm just like just a little gutted and ready to
roll my sleeves up and get to work because we
need a lot of action. And I think that's what
what I am so drawn to you over is your
ability to show up so true to yourself and really
push the envelope when it comes to like really hard conversations,
(04:27):
which I find so powerful. And I'm curious, like I
want to hear your story of how you came to
this and how you found your voice and what were
you like moving through the world as a young girl,
because not everyone feels so confident and really living their
(04:48):
truth and openly true to the public and their following
without being so worried about controversy and backlash.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Well, you know, I was quite a quiet child and teenager.
I didn't have lots of thoughts and opinions out loud,
and this probably carried on through to you know, I
was starting to find my voice around nineteen twenty about
certain issues, eating disorder, culture, etc. But by the time
(05:19):
I was twenty six, I was just so repressed of
everything that I tried to commit suicide. And it was
the second time i'd tried, and I knew I would
try again if I didn't change everything about my life.
And I found out that repression causes depression, and I thought,
that's probably what's going on here as to why I'm
(05:41):
so in such a dark and hopeless place, is because
I've got so much built up in me over my
life that it feels untenable to be able to unravel it.
So it's easier just to tap out. So I thought, Okay,
if I'm going to stick around and try again, I
have to change everything really radically and abandon any former
(06:02):
belief or behavior that I used to hold. And so
that meant that I lived in upside downland, and I
entered into a ten year crash dummy test as to
what my life would look like if I did everything
in the reverse of what I'd done at that point.
So that meant never holding my tongue about anything ever.
(06:23):
It meant acting with autonomy, it meant doing what I wanted.
It meant rebelling in every way that I wanted to
rebel and telling the truth to anyone who would listen
about what I really thought about society. And so I
culled a lot of people in my life. I moved country,
I moved, you know, to the other side of the world.
(06:44):
I left my relationship. I had, you know, an abortion,
which is something that the previous me probably would have
felt too scared and too guilty to do. I just
I seized my autonomy and my mental health proper went away.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Wow. So that was your moment of being aware of
the power you held.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, And I mean, look, that's not going to be
the case for everyone. Lots of people have chemical imbalances
that lead to mental health issues, but mine would would
directly link to swallowing abuse and trauma and pushing it down.
And you know, it's just you don't have a bottomless
pit to hide all of that pain in. At some point,
you like it's going to come back up. And mine
(07:27):
came back up quite young, at twenty six, and I
had a nervous breakdown and I've never looked back. And
I've only had a few small dips since then. But
other than that, I've been like, not just stable, but
happy and fulfilled. And I feel very strong, which I
never felt in my early life.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I love your vulnerability and open openness because I do
think the way you speak about it, it's your superpower.
It's not like your crutch. It's not like it's termed
mean your scars into power, which I really think I
live my life through it as well. I think it's
(08:06):
so important, and I think for so long we've been
told to be quiet about those moments in life, and
it's so personal and it's not for everyone, but I
think it's such a learning moment and pivotal moment in
the becoming that if we don't share it, we don't
feel that community in that belonging.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Would you agree, Yeah, well, I think it's just patriarchal.
It's a patriarchal belief that we should withhold and refrain
and have a stiff up a lip. That's very it's
toxic masculinity that's been imposed upon women. Divine femininity means
sharing and building community. I mean, gossip is something that
was created by women who needed to exchange vital life
(08:48):
saving information. We open our mouths like femininity means telling
the truth to one another, and so I think part
of my truly embracing femininity was to be able to
use my words and communicate and reach out across to
other women and make sure that we were all exchanging
the truth. So I find it very very misogynist or patriarchal.
(09:14):
I'd say to hold it in and patriarchy kills. Look
at the states and men. Look at the suicide statistics
of men. Look at the mental health statistics of Mendal company.
You know, violent murderers are men. Violent members of society
are men like they are in crisis. And partially it's
because they have never been instructed or allowed or encouraged
(09:35):
to use their words. And so the same thing that
was killing them was killing me, and I decided to
abandon it and saved my life.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
It's beautiful, it's beautifully said. Thank you for sharing that.
I'm curious, though, why did you choose to be so
outspoken about women's health, And because it is a You've
become so blunt, and a lot of people are not
used to women speaking so openly about their bodies and
(10:01):
their experiences, because it's like you open yourself to a
bunch of controversy all the time. Because this landscape of
social media, everyone has something to say. But why did
you choose that specific part to advocate so strongly for
the last several decades.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I think I don't know. I think partially it's because
I almost died from this shit, so I don't want
anyone else to suffer. And if I could recycle all
that pain and trauma and all those mistakes into stopping
someone else from making them, you know, even if it's
just one life I was able to alter or save,
that's enough. That's worth taking on global dislike or global disrepute.
(10:46):
Like it's okay for me not to be liked by
a bunch of fucking strangers. I don't like them either.
I don't like anyone incredibly unfriendly, you know. So I've
got about thirteen people in my life who I hold
very dear to me, and you know, I'm really not
that fuss about what any Marlon Rando thinks about me,
and they shouldn't be fussed about what I think about them.
(11:07):
So in the same way that I don't walk around
thinking loving thoughts about everyone, I don't expect everyone to
have loving thoughts about me. And there's a tremendous peace
to that. Again, it's patriarchy that teaches women that it's,
you know, our job to be liked. We just don't
teach men or boys that ever. We teach them to
go out there and achieve and become the best that
they can be. And you know a bunch of also
(11:28):
bullshit things that we teach boys and men, but with women,
we burden them with this task to be liked and
believed and understood and be palatable. And I can't think
of anything more exhausting or boring than being palatable to everyone.
Everyone's so unique and truth yes, you know what I mean,
(11:49):
like all kinds of different foods or different sex things,
or people who enjoy someone shitting on their chest. You know,
I am I to try to please everyone sexually, physically, emotionally, intellectually.
One size does not fit all, and so I'm just
I'd prefer to find my community and actually be myself
(12:11):
with them. So I think the fact that I knew
that I was whatever had broken me free from that
societal expectation meant that I knew that that was my superpower.
Was not giving a shit what other people's like, genuinely
being okay with you know, never wanting to hurt people,
never wanting to offend people. That was always something I
(12:33):
did by accident. But not being okay was not being
liked or people finding me annoying was my superpower, and
so I was like, okay, well, I don't really give
a shit if this industry kicks me out, because I
didn't plan on being in it anywhere. I was an
English teacher, you know, who got discovered and then put
on television, and then The Good Place was my first
ever acting audition. I just got very, very lucky in
(12:54):
my career, and so I always looked at the career
as a trojan horse to make my point. So I
had never had anything to lose. And the reason that
I get attacked a lot by the media is because
I attack the people that fund the media, and so
I'm very dangerous because I've got nothing to lose. They
can't threaten me by taking my job away. They can't
(13:16):
threaten me by hurting my reputation and taking brand deals
away because that was never my plan anyway. So I'm living.
I've always considered myself to be living in this industry
on very borrowed time, and I think that's what makes
me scary, you knowing there's nothing more dangerous than someone
who's got nothing to lose. That are used to seeing
that in the form of a woman.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yes, that part, but you are giving other women permission
to do so. And I love the platforms you use
to speak up about the things that people are a
little scared or shameful to do, to go against the green.
I feel like we're so taught to follow in line.
You have to be this way, and any time we
(13:57):
have an opinion like you said, or speak up, just
like oh she's controversial, Oh she's an asshole, or she's
a bit.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Annoying annoyingly the one that is the most effective and
getting women shut up. Yeah, I mean it's so strange
and I don't really mind. If I don't really mind
being called annoying. It is who who has ever threatened
a system and not been annoying. All the people that
we think are cool are silent. Specifically, the women, the
(14:26):
women that are our fads are the ones who don't
ruffle any feathers, who just come out and they're obediently thin,
and they have perfect skin, and they look great and
they fit whatever trend is going on now, and they
don't really get political. Those the women who we look
at as the internet's faves. We've never looked at people
who challenge systems and been like, oh, they're so cool,
(14:48):
because they're not. You have to be fucking annoying. It's jarring,
it's irritating, or holding a mirror up to society or
pointing out hypocrisy. At that part, you're delivering information imperfectly
because you're you know, you'll learn that you're going along.
It's all. It's messy work, and you have to be
prepared to be seen as messy because you're not You're
not going along, you know, with the with the tide.
(15:12):
And so how could you not piss people off for
a variety of reasons that are partially your fault, or
just because you're pointing out something very uncomfortable. I exist
in a hyper focus on inconvenient truths, and so it
makes me an inconvenient person. It fucks people off, And
that's okay because ultimately, as long as I'm getting my
(15:34):
point across, that's the main goal.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
And you're doing it very well, and I'm just trying
to follow in your footsteps a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Oh just Li, You're just plenty, You're doing so much.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment. After
this brief message from our sponsors. I appreciate that, but
I'm cure curious. What was it for you to just
be like bucket I'm going to pick pack my bags.
I'm going to go to Hollywood. I'm going to give
(16:08):
this a girl, and I get this audition for the
good Place and I land it and here's my life. Now.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
None of it was a sort of thought out plan.
It was It's I'm a very reactive person, which I
think if you've ever followed me on the internet probably so.
It's very much so. You know, it's a fuck around
and find out lifestyle, but in a fun positive way
where I'm excited to see what's going to happen. And again,
(16:39):
this kind of trails back to my lack of care
as to my reputation. Right, I take risks, I think, oh,
that would be funny to try, and if I fail,
that'll be funny. And if I embarrass myself, I'll find
that funny. My friends will find that funny. So because
I'm never trying to impress anyone ever, it means that
(17:00):
I have this freedom to make some truly mad decisions
all the time, to be like, maybe I'm just gonna
pack up my shit and abandon my career and move
to the other side of the world when no one
knows who I am. Maybe I'm going to go and
do this. Maybe I'm going to do that. Maybe I'm
going to try music production, Maybe I'm gonna try acting.
Maybe I'm going to become a writer, Maybe I'm gonna
become an advocate of all these different things that I try.
I just throw myself in at the deep end, because
(17:22):
that's what men are taught to do. Men are not
told to be perfect from the beginning. And so it's just,
you know, I think, I just I think true feminism
is not hating men. It's just wanting equality. And equality
means that I get to live my life with the
same peace and lack of burden that men get to
live theirs with. And I very much so look at
the way that my boyfriend lives his life, and I
(17:44):
try to match that same energy. I try to make
sure we get ready for the same amount of time,
and we you know, we go after our dreams in
the same way, and we live as on apologetically as
each other. And he's great at encouraging me to do so.
He never tries to make me smaller.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Well, that's that's also very important. And I'm curious because
I spoke, I spoke on this, you know, last week
on a panel and I want to ask you because
I do think it's so important and I think you
are leading the pack when it comes to this. So
I'm curious what's your what's your take on like failure
and your take on kind of like stepping outside the box,
(18:23):
because what I'll say is your ability to just run
with things and try it. You're you move differently than
most women. And I'm curious because I spoke about this
the other day as an athlete who did the same thing.
I just wasn't scared to fail. I fucking tried everything relentlessly,
(18:44):
and I I didn't care what happened because I knew
every moment was a learning lesson. And I think so
many women are so fucking scared to fail and sit
in fear that they choose comfort, that they choose this
marriage because it's easy and I have this, you know,
the kids and this, And what is it about you?
(19:06):
How do you move through life and your concept of failure,
because clearly you didn't give a shit, and I think
that makes you really special.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I think I'm may be more afraid of something else
than I am failure, and that is the words. What
if I'm more afraid of regret than I am a failure.
I'm more afraid of being haunted by the decisions that
I made that stopped me from finding out what could
have happened. That to me, is much scarier than failure.
(19:36):
And I watch a significant amount of videos of people,
you know, who are either dying or at the end
of their life, or literally on a deathbed, you know,
being interviewed about what they would have done differently, And
especially when it comes to women, it is I must
be over ninety percent of the women who were just
like I wish I hadn't lived my life according to
(19:57):
what other people thought. I wish I'd rebelled more. I
wish I'd behaved worse. And so, you know, I think
it's almost it feels almost like a conspiracy, the way
that we push older women out of the way and
we get rid of them and we send them to
sit by a window. You know, in Western culture, we
(20:20):
don't race the elderly and the lessons of the elderly.
We don't respect our elders. We disrespect older women, specifically
older women, and we hide them and we tell them
to distract themselves or the race against time and gravity,
because older women will tell us the truth. And I
think that truth is to rebel and to fight back,
and to be disobedient and to live a life for
(20:42):
yourself and to chase pleasure and comfort and autonomy. And
I guess, and I'm trying. I'm racing towards my Crone era.
Other women fear their Crone era, whereas I'm desperate to
get there. And I guess I've been kind of launched
micron era early to try and get all the information
(21:03):
I can out to the young ones before I get
pushed out and put by a window, although that'd be
very difficult to do to me. But I don't see
that genuine. It's a genuine conspiracy to shut older women up.
We used to really respect. The word krone was something
that was not negative, you know. The word spinster was
(21:23):
not a negative word. That all of these words have
been turned into something dark and sad by patriarchy. Older
women have the key, They have all of the answers,
not just for women but also for men. Therefore they
are a threat to society. Therefore they must be removed, erased,
you know. And whenever we show them out in public,
(21:44):
we must make them perform use you know, every fucking
TV show I see with actresses over fifty. It's so blurred.
I don't know if I'm watching AI or YEA.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
The beauty effect. It's like this filter that we don't.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Have on the men, the men who age appropriate with
these women. They look like pedophiles, you know, because the
girl looks like a teenager, but she's fifty. It's ridiculous,
it's very distracting. It's very hard to get lost in
a TV show anymore with an actress over forty because
of how much they blur her face. It's like a
cartoon I suddenly stepped onto the screen. It really pisses
me off.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, and you've been really outspoken lately about the beauty
standard and what's going on in this current landscape, and listen,
this is this is a conversation that is really gonna
shift the landscape of how we view beauty, and I
think we're really going backwards. So I'm glad that you
kind of just put us in that topic because you know,
(22:40):
you recently spoke about these you know, gpl ones or
all of these different drugs that are coming out now
that are making people very very thin. And I just
am curious as someone who's advocating so hard and this space, Like,
(23:01):
are you worried what the media is doing now because
we were so body positive and we've kind of flipped,
flipped a little switch and we're going backwards because now
everything is thin, thin, thin, thin, thin. And you know,
recently you spoke on the Serena Williams thing. I'm curious
if you could elaborate on your feeling and thoughts as
(23:23):
someone who's been advocating for so long about body positivity
and all the stuff you've had to go through and
you've experienced firsthand. Has this been hard?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Oh, it's definitely hard and pressing, But it's also just
historically accurate that every time the world leads towards conservatism
and fascism, beauty standards for women become more restrictive and constrictive. Right, So,
so every time you trap back through history, anytime there
is an authoritarian uprising, we always see women expected to
become very small, very frail. And the reason women are
(23:56):
supposed to look small and frail. Listen, just to be clear,
anyone who needs a GLP one should take a GOLP one.
They could be worth saving medications. I talk about the
abuse of golp ones to fit a very temporary beauty standard,
one that always comes along for women to look specifically fragile.
You know, you're an athlete. You don't want to look
fragile or to be fragile. Strength is your superpower. Strength
(24:19):
is women's superpower, while tolerance and our strength is what
makes us so exceptional. And it's because of an insecure
patriarchy that in order for them to look big and
to feel big and strong, they need us to be
small and thinner because they don't feel like they can
rise to the challenge. Similarly, with the fact that women
are out, you know, outrunning men when it comes to school,
(24:43):
higher education. We're buying homes faster than men are. You know,
at a younger age. Women are climbing ladders faster than men,
in spite of being held back up until maybe thirty
or forty years ago, beyond all belief, not even able
to have our own bank accounts. And so the men
have been emasculated by other men on the internet to
(25:04):
believe that they are incapable of rising up to women's level.
So the only possible avenue is to bring women back down.
And I find that very sad and emasculating for men.
I think that's very offensive to men and boys to
be told, oh, no, you wouldn't possibly be able to
become more emotionally intelligent or desirable to women based on
(25:25):
your personality, So you're just going to have to take
away women's voting rights. Or no, women understand too much,
we need to take away their education. I'll no, women
are speaking to each other too much. We need to
stop them from speaking on the internet. How sad to
believe to have no growth mindset whatsoever, and had to
have a grown man in his fifties lecture you with
a cigar in his mouth about how bringing bitches down
(25:48):
is the only way to stay on top. Imagine making
men feel like that. It's like a glass ceiling that's
there for men, an emotional glass ceiling. I find it
very pathetic and sad for those men. I'm you know,
I feel very bad for the boys that are being
told this. And women have got experience of being told
you'll never do better than this, so we know how
that feels. And it's very very dark. And think God,
(26:10):
women have pushed each other through that ceiling to start
to achieve. But I do think we're rolling backwards, but
specifically regarding the beauty standards of extreme use. You know,
despite however old you are, like how normalized the facelift
has become. How normalized botox was, and we were told
it was safe, and then we found out it wasn't safe.
So we were told filler is much safer, and philler's
(26:32):
great because it dissolves within six months. And now we
found out that philler did not in fact dissolve within
six months, and two years later people are still of
finding it on MRIs and actually it's not good for you,
and it's not good for your immune system. And you know,
facelifts only last I think five to ten years, and
you have to have another one and eventually you run
out of skin. So it's just this endless pursuit of use.
But my point is is that this obsession always comes
(26:53):
along when women need to be distracted, when women are
doing too well, when we need our eyes taken off
the ball is when the most obscene beauty standards are
imposed upon us. And these are this is the most
powerful women have ever been in the world, and this
is the most obscene our beauty standards have ever been
forever use for ever thinness, fighting, achieving the you know,
(27:13):
winning against time and gravity, obsessed with collagen, obsessed with hairlessness.
All very pedophilic. Like, everything's very pedophilic, because we have,
you know, a world that is being largely navigated by
a small minority of pervert men who want to have
sex with teenagers, who want to normalize their desire to
have sex with teenagers, so they have normalized the beauty
(27:37):
standard being as close to teenager as possible, so that
it doesn't look freakish for them to want to have
sex with people who are practically children. And these, this
small group of pedophiles, have managed to control our entire
beauty standard. There's plenty of men. I'm with a man
(27:57):
who is attracted to grown women. There are plenty of
men I know who do not have fancy teenage girls,
whose preference is not teenage girls, and whose preference isn't
super skinny, and whose preference isn't white skin or a
button nose or the doe eyes.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yes, there are many men whose preference isn't tall and
thin or shortened. There are men who love musterly women.
There are all kinds of different beauty standards out there,
and different preferences. Women fancy different things in other women.
It's truly bizarre how many of us are expected to
fall in line with this uniform of beauty standard. It
(28:37):
makes no sense to me. It's truly just pedophilia, fascism,
and conservatism.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So I'm curious what advice would you have for this
younger generation who are now rethinking how they want to
live in their own body because of what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
First of all, you have to be very careful about
who you're following online. I think it's something like ninety
seconds from when you log on as a young woman
or a teenage girl before you are directed. Like before
content is directed towards you, that is telling you to
alter your appearance and eating disordered content for example. So
you're being hunted via algorithms by predatory content to make
(29:18):
you feel bad about the way you look. So you'll
spend your hard earned money in a world where you
don't make as much money as men, spend all of
your money on fixing something that was never broken. When
it comes to your aesthetic, I would also say that
something that really helped me, and I don't know if
a lot of people feel this way, but I'm very
powered by spite. And every time I look in the
(29:40):
mirror and think a negative thought about myself, I imagine
a man making more money from that thought as a
man is there's a group of men who want me
to feel that way, who are going to get richer
if I feel that way and do.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Something about it. And I need to do.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
That idea of I love the idea of spiting their
by choosing myself and not succumbing to their desires, their
pervert desires of what I'm supposed to look like and
how I'm supposed to live my life. And third of all,
and this is probably the most important thing, is that
(30:17):
no one cares about the second half of your life,
as in patriarchy doesn't care about the second half of
your life. And the second half of your life is
when shit gets really great. Right, Yeah, this is I
can feel the turn happening of me being the happiest
I've ever been, having the best sex I've ever had.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Say it again, Say it again, say it again.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Turning forty like I cannot get to my forties fast enough.
I've never felt more sane, more whole. I've never understood
the world better. I've never understood myself better. I am
at ease now. Yes, Now, this is the bit where
women become really scary to men who are insecure, and
so they don't care what happens to us, which is
(30:59):
why they sell us all of these quick fixed things
that have tremendous damage that can be done that will
show up later. Right, So, if you don't eat enough,
you will develop osteoporosis, which is a lack of bone density,
which is going to make you brittle. So when you
just bang your arm or you fall over, you'll break
a hip, You'll break your arm. You will become a
(31:19):
brittle older woman. And I don't mean an old old
old like ninety year old. I mean forties, fifties. This
stuff will start to ruin your life. You will thin
your heart, you will destroy your mental health, you will
destroy your your gut microbiome. You will, which will then
in turn impact your ability to produce serotonin and dopamine.
You will fuck up your teeth, you will fuck up
(31:42):
your hair, you will you will spend I think this
is something like it's something like eighteen years is on
average how much of a woman's life she spends thinking
about her body and diet culture.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Really, Yes, I was one.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Study I read, but they were estimating how much of
our lives. So I'm begging you, if you want to
be a wild, strong, grown woman who feels happy and
healthy and lives a long, strong life, please eat properly,
stay away from anyone who's discouraging you from doing so.
(32:17):
Learn about proper nutrition, Learn how to nourish yourself, lift weight,
get strong, become harder to kidnap.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
God, So this like slogan going viral on TikTok that
was like, stay skinny, stay safe.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
What the smaller and the lighter you are, the easier
you are to kidnap. Right, you need to learn how
to fight. You need to learn how to fucking beat
someone up. I think the.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Fact that we have to even think about this is
just so ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It's so ridiculous. But look at the world right now.
You know you've got people dressing up as ice agents,
kidnapping women and sexually assaulting them. This is not a
time to be frail. This is of time to be
skinny and be easier to lift and carry away in
a van. This is the time to be We should
really be getting as fat as possible, and as heavy
as possible, and as strong as strong. I know you
(33:12):
should be wearing like anchors on our ankles. You know
this is a time to be immovable, like I want
to wear armor made like with spikes all over it.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Right now, I am one word yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
You know. I want to get as strong as possible.
I'm learning how to fight at the moment. It feels amazing.
It's changed my gait.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I love this. Stay tuned. I'll be back in just
a moment after this brief message from our sponsors. Tell
me more. Because you speak so much about body positivity
and the movements, your period, poverty, women's health. You advocate
(33:59):
for so much. What do you do for yourself to
take care of your body?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Well, I mostly walk and run around with my dogs,
but boxing is very important to me.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Well, I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I like to hit. It has massively reduced my rage
because like getting out somewhere, it's very important to get
your rage out, especially as I'm hurtling towards perimenopause. And
then I just eat very well. I eat delicious, nutritious food.
I eat what I crave. I don't diet anymore. I
(34:33):
don't restrict. When I feel as though the clothes are
too small, I won't wear the clothes. I'm not. I
don't participate like I was supposed to go and do
a bunch of shows that I was supposed to go
to as part of my job, you know, fashion shows,
et cetera. And I tried on the clothes and the
clothes are too small. Now my options are I can
(34:54):
spend one thousand pounds of my own money to alter
each item and feel bad myself and uncomfortable, or I
can go well, no, fuck you, I'm not going there.
Like enjoy not having you know, certain people turn up
to your shows because you're so untalented. You couldn't design
(35:14):
something for an adult a variety of adult woman bodies.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
It's so true.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
So you know, like I just protect I protect my
mental health in that way. If I get less jobs
because I'm not super skinny and because I don't have
you know, a very very tight face of an eighteen
year old, then maybe I'm just not supposed to work
in this industry. But I refuse to. You know, women
are already at so much risk and of so many things.
So we have the most autoimmune disorders, we're constantly being
(35:45):
We're endangered by men everywhere we go, not to strangers,
but more so the ones that we know in our
own homes. It's like, am I not in enough danger
already that I have stanger myself that I have to
get a Brazilian butt lift, and then that they kill
loads of people. And then now people have been told
I know, actually we don't want you to have an ass,
so they're getting their Brazilian butt lifts so scary, their
(36:06):
implants are removed. It's like in and out, in outshake
it all about, like, what what is this? I'm in
enough pain, like my friends haveing demetrious, like pcos we
have most of the automune, or doesn't we have? Women
are struggling enough, We go through enough pain. I get
my period every month. I have to exist in this
(36:26):
world where reproductive rights are being taken away, well, gynecological
health has been taken away, well, where our health research
and studies are being deleted in perpetuity. Why on earth
would I subject myself to more pain, more risk. All
these things carry significant risks, lifelong risks. They can kill you,
They kill people, these things. Why would I do that voluntarily?
(36:49):
In a world that's already trying so hard to kill me.
Why would I hate them?
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Because we are tall that our job is to care
for everybody else but our fucking self, and that that's
why we're dying earlier, That's why men need women to
live longer lives and we live shorter because we are constantly,
always taking care of other people besides ourselves.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
This is why I refuse to get married or have children.
That's for my personal decision was just no, I've lived
a life of service. I can't be bothered anymore. I'm
not doing anything else now for anyone else. I will,
you know, exist in my advocacy within that boundary, but
outside of that, this life is for me. And as
I kind of alluded to earlier, women are taught that,
(37:34):
you know, pleasure is a privilege and not a right,
and that is incorrect. That is false propaganda. Life is
for pleasure and you should be seeking it everywhere you can,
especially now during these terrible times. And this life is
yours to live, and you will regret it so much
if you do not try and find out who you
are really are and what you're really capable of. You know,
(37:56):
I was talking about this recently, on a podcast that
I went to a party of all lesbians. Right there
was normally, when I go to a gay party, it's
predominantly gay men, and then you've got some gay women
and for some reason they don't normally fraternize together. In England,
I guess as much, but it didn't feel quite separate.
So I went to a party of almost exclusively lesbians
(38:18):
and for the first time ever was in a room
of all women expressing themselves, dressed comfortably, being unbelievably funny,
out loud and unapologetically being opinionated, arguing with each other
without it becoming a fight. Everyone felt so secure. There
was such a feeling of safety and ease in the room.
(38:40):
There was pizza and women were eating it, and I
just thought, right, this is who all women would have
been if men hadn't been looking, and you know gay women.
Of course, I go through so many different types of
scrutiny and being forced into all kinds of different boxes.
But even by women have this. By women still feel
some sort of responsibility to morph themselves into what would
(39:03):
be attractive to the male gays. Lesbians, in particular, lesbians
who realized they were lesbian young appear to have to
me from all the women I know who are lesbians,
who have always known they are lesbians or from when
they were very young children, is they have grown into
the person they were always supposed to be so much
faster than straight and by ways that I know, And
(39:25):
I feel as though all women should be raised in
a commune of lesbians.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
There we are because they nailed it.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Because without the male, gaye is the only way you're
going to learn who you really are. And these women
were so self actualized and so joyous and so unapologetic,
and it just made me very happy and very sad
all at the same time to think of how many
of my friends reduced themselves even when there are no
men present. Because if you do that enough in your
(39:54):
entire life, if you make yourself small for long enough,
it's a kind of defe fault setting. And it's only
in tiny bursts of one on one contact with another
woman that you might let out some of your true
inner goblin. And that's devastating. So even when women are
in a crowd, they're just still in a group together.
They're still hiding parts themselves from themselves. Women don't know
(40:18):
how funny they are to themselves. They don't know how
smart they are, how capable, how opinionated they actually are,
because they're self censoring. And so my life is about
no longer self censoring, figuring out who I am, removing
the mask, and encouraging other women to do the same.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
And you're also saying, going go to more lesbian parties.
I'm hearing.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
And here I was talking recently with an older woman,
you know, who's my kind of go to crone, about
the rise of the four B movement. You know, this
is I think it started in Korea, right South Korea,
where women are kind of moving into communes with one
another handling.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
It's happening all over the world men, and now that's.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Happening all over the world. Saying that to her, and
she said, what do you think convents really were? And
it hadn't really occurred to me.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
She was like it was.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
She was like, making it about God was the only
way to make that socially acceptable for women to go,
Oh my god, I'm so fucking done with men. Yeah,
I'm just going to piss off here to this just
wonderful commune of women and we'll all wear the same
outfit and whatever and just live in peace, and it
will be a comfortable outfit, peace and ease, peace and
(41:28):
ease and safety. And they've made themselves because of the
you know, you know, because of God, untouchable, and so
they were generally left alone. And so I realized and
it hadn't for some reason, it had never occurred to me.
I really looked at it just as a religious thing,
and they were like, She was like, no, like that's
something that we did to get away from.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Them, exactly exactly. Oh, it's so good and I'm glad
we agree on this. My lesbian group of friends, we
always are talking about where where are we going to
buy just a whole compound of all of us just
to go live in peace because we need it especially
right now.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
But I will say this, I for for those of
you who don't know about your podcast, Wrong Turns. It
is fucking hilarious. And before we run out of time,
I really want you to talk about your podcast because
it's so different in the landscape now of everyone and
everyone has podcasts everyone, But what I love is like
(42:29):
yours is light and it's like it's so tastefully done
in a way that's so in your fucking face. I
really want you to talk about why you chose to
do it, what you know. Our viewers and listeners maybe
have never tuned in. They should. It's called Wrong Turns,
but tell us about the podcast and why.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
It's sort of it goes in line with what I'm saying,
but also is nothing like how I am. I guess
in my kind of day to day version of me
that people know, which is that I talk a lot
about very serious things and social structures, et cetera, and
wrong t is my kind of escape from that, to
exist only in the absurd and silly. So it's a
comedy disaster podcast about all the most embarrassing shit we've
(43:07):
ever done, or ever created or experienced that has no
great silver lining. There's no inspiring pearl of wisdom shoved
up your ass at the end of a disaster story.
It's just unabashed mortification. And it's the podcast. Our tagline
is It's where dignity goes to die. And where it
(43:29):
really falls in line with everything I stand for is
it's me and all of these other brilliant people, just
without shame, telling the truth about what appalling little gremlins
we all really are. And it's been so liberating to
say so many humiliating stories out loud in the public
(43:51):
and just have them live there and have people and
women in particular bond back to me and relate to
what I've said and the humiliating things I've done or undergone.
And so it's a very bonding podcast where you will
feel less alone in the mistakes you've made, in the
terrible things you have experienced. It's very trauma free, it's
very very silly, very surviceable, and it's a kind of
(44:12):
it's just a thirty five minute escape every Thursday from
this dumpster fire earth where you can just laugh and
enjoy the world for a second and feel less alone.
I think, you know, it goes against perfection culture, it
goes against inspiration culture with anti inspiration pro commiseration, and
I think it's just this much needed respite. IM always
(44:33):
thinking about what I need in the world, and then
when I can't find it, I make it. I love it,
and so this was just something that I needed as
an outlet, and people seem to really enjoy it, so
it's nice.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
It is exactly what we need right now. So thank
you for being the education piece, but also the lateness,
like it's just really beautifully done, and more people need
to tune in, so every one out there turn into
Wrong Turns because it is absolutely an incredible podcast. And
I'm curious for a woman who does so fucking much,
(45:09):
I can't imagine you even have time to do anything enjoyable.
But what's next for you?
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I don't know. I don't I don't think I want
to do very much anymore. I think I think I
think i'd like to rest. I'm writing, I'm writing a
film and a TV show and toying with a book.
I write on substack. I write very, very very blunt
(45:36):
essays on substack, all the things that I'm not allowed
to say on social media. It's so good i'll get
blocked by the algorithm. It's called a low desire to please,
which is a review that my dog got from a
training school. They said he's very smart, but he has
a low desire to please, And I think, oh, fuck
at that is that my little That's a feminist slogan.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Yes, it's exactly how I feel.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
I have a low desire to please. I've written a
very unapologetic substact that you can read every week. But
I think I want to spend more time living with
my loved one, spending time with my dogs, enjoying what's
left of the freedom of the earth, and seeing things
in the world of putting the sun on my skin.
I don't know about you. I don't feel terribly ambitious
(46:20):
when it comes to projects. I feel very ambitious when
it comes to getting the word out there to the world.
But I also feel very inclined to practice what I preach,
which is that as women, we have suffered enough and
the world is horrible and we must seek that pleasure.
So I, personally, for now anyway, I'm on a mission
(46:41):
to pleasure before the hot flushes start.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yes, and I'm with you, I'm like, what are we
about to get into?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I have no more desire to really achieve anything now.
I just want to have fun. Let's do that feels
That feels like I don't know sacrilege to say, but
I but you know, we need balance in this world,
and if I'm going to fight the fight, I need.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
To also need balance, especially right now. And I appreciate
what you how you show up in this world and
bringing everyone with you and giving people permission to live
life this way through this lens.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Well, likewise. Likewise, you face so much misogyny and so
much shit also from other women who have been indoctrinated
by misogyny. And I really appreciate the way that you
show up publicly and what you do with your platform
like that, what you do is not easier. And then
you've also been putting your body on the line, you know,
So it's a three to sixty years oult. And I
(47:39):
really appreciate humans like you for doing what you do
and making a statement out of it, because you have
clearly inspired so many young women and all of it.
I don't know about you, but for me, all of
the shit becomes worth it if I can turn it
into goals for someone else. Yes, that part and part
that's the power of women. That's the magic of women.
(48:01):
And that's why they're trying so hard to destroy us,
because we're so good, we're so wholesome, we're so strong,
we're so powerful, we're so intuitive. You only ever seek
to destroy something you're terrified of. If they didn't think
we were a threat, they would leave us alone. They
are going above and beyond and so far out of
their way to hold us back and subjugate us because
they're terrified, yes, of what would happen if we actually
(48:24):
stopped thinking about our skincare and our weight and our
age and actually started to go after what we want
in this world, and so to do it out of spite.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
You are always dropping bombs.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Thank you so much for being on the show this week.
Thank you for being vulnerable and wide Open and most
importantly yourself. And I appreciate the fight, the good fight
that you choose to do every day in the way
you show up so I see.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
You on the phone line. Mate.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
If we out listen, we will be holding hands on
the front line. We will not stop. And I think
that's what makes us unique and special and I appreciate
you taking the time today we all do. Thank you
everyone for tuning in to another episode of Wide Open,
and we'll see you next week. Wide Open with Ashlin
(49:16):
Harris is an iHeart women's sports production. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronov,
and Lucy Jones. Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive
producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our
(49:40):
editors are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder and I'm your
host Ashlyn Harris.
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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