May 5, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode, Ashlyn talks to organizational psychologist, author, and “Mr. Facts” himself, Adam Grant. From topping bestseller charts, to getting cut from his middle school soccer team, Adam’s gotten to know the ins and outs of why we tick the way we tick. He and Ashlyn talk about the difference between getting it right and being right and hyping up your past self – and digress into talking about high school rivalries, the Tarheels, and Robinhood: Men in Tights.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, everyone, Welcome back to another week of Wide Open.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Today.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I am so excited to talk to the brilliant, incredible
human who I am lucky to know and who I
have met along my journey as a professional athlete, Adam Grant.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to Wide Open. How are you?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Thanks, Ashlan. It's a lot of pressure. They're we'll see
how this goes.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
You're, you know, professor, and you're a family man and
a father. You're just ticking so many boxes. I don't
know how you do it, so please tell.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Me your secrets.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Well, you're too kind, Ashland. I think. I mean.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
The short answer is, when you get cut from the
ninth grade soccer team, you have to find something else
to try to excel at. So I've played ten years
of soccer. I think I was barely good enough to
be a travel team in middle school, but not good
enough to make my high school team. And when that
door closed, I sort of started barging through others and
have been doing that ever since.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I love it, and I know this is so interesting
because you know, I have kept up with you for
so many years. I really have enjoyed our time together
when I was a player and your work that you know,
we're all so lucky you choose to show up and
share with everyone. But I want to know more about you.
(01:31):
I want to know more about the young Adam growing
up in the suburbs of Detroit. I'm interested to know who.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Adam was as a little boy.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Who was you know, a swimmer, a basketball player, you know,
a creative thought provoker who asked a bunch of questions,
who lived life through I mean, you're a data nerd,
which I love about you because I like, for me,
if I don't see the numbers and I don't have
the fact, it's hard for me to buy in.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I gotta be honest.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So I love the way you think, but I want
to know why you are who you are and what
was the process like?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
All right, So I think I think the place to
start was, Yeah, I was definitely obsessed with sports as
a kid. I loved soccer and basketball especially, and as
I guess, at some point in middle school, my friends
and I started a fantasy basketball and football league, and
I thought it was going to be a fun opportunity
to talk more about sports, and instead they just made
(02:31):
fun of me the whole time, calling me mister facts.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
It's brutal.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, this happened when we were trading sports cards too, Like,
you know, I'd start to argue about what were fair
terms for a deal and they would say, shut up,
mister facts. So I was a pretty nerdy kid, and
I definitely loved I loved data, and I loved challenging myself.
And I think two things happened that piqued my interest
(02:58):
early in psychology. One was I started coaching my younger
sister's soccer team, and I had to try to figure
out how to motivate her teammates and get kids who
were you know, all swarming toward the ball at the
same time, to try to coordinate and think about playing
a position. And that was fun and it was a
really interesting challenge. And then I when I got cut
(03:20):
from the soccer team to start high school, I went
all in on springboard diving, and diving was a sport
that just it forced me to get deeper into psychology
because I had to figure out, how do I overcome
my fear of heights, how do I motivate myself to
to try dives that I think are outside of my
ability level and I'm probably going to end up doing
(03:42):
a belly flop or a backsmack. And then I started
coaching diving too and had to motivate other divers, you know,
in similar situations. And so I think those experiences of
you know, of both diving and then coaching diving in soccer,
just they made me fascinated by psychology and I wanted
to understand what makes us take better and how I
can help other people bring out the best in themselves.
(04:03):
And that I think planet enough seeds for the career
that I have today that I really couldn't think of
doing anything else.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Wow, it's you know, it makes me think because I
fall on your every word, which I love because it's
so so digestible, but also because I relate, I understand.
I think as kids, you learn so much in the
process of understanding why you asked the questions you did.
(04:33):
But did it come from your parents? Did a part
of that upbringing like that secret sauce people talk about,
did you inherit that from learning things about your parents?
Speaker 4 (04:47):
For sure?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
I found out actually after I declared psychology as a
major in college, that both of my parents had studied
psychology in college.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
And I didn't know.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Wow, I should have known because terms like self feeling prophecy,
we're turned around in my household like that was that
was normal dialogue. But I didn't realize that was you know,
that was a term that came out of social science,
and I think they were because they were a lawyer
and a teacher. It never really came up, and I
think that you know that definitely. I think sparked some
(05:20):
kind of both curiosity and also like a sense of familiarity.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
When I started studying these topics, I was.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Like, wait that, I know that I've already heard about that,
But enough about me. I want to talk more about you,
because I think when we first met, I was struck
by this strange duality I guess, and maybe the strange
is the wrong word for it, but it was. It
was an unusual attention for me. Between you came across
(05:46):
as both very chill and also extremely intense.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
I get that a lot, do you, because normally I.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Think about these two things as opposite, and you managed
to exude both of them, and I wanted to know
where that came from.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Wow, you're the first person that's really asked me that
I and I can't wait to unpack this with you
and like I'm int a really weird process in my
life where I'm unpacking who I was as a professional
athlete and how I've closed that door, and how it
(06:19):
serves me as a partner, as a mom, as a
leader outside of sport, and also rethinking the way sport
made me such a great athlete but maybe not such
a great mom and partner. I was on this pursuit
of greatness, and it was weird for me because I
(06:43):
wanted to be great at everything I did, and it
wasn't something I could just drop when I walked into
my house.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I wanted to be the best at.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Everything, and it really left me disappointed a lot, and
it doesn't necessarily serve me as a mom. The intensity
part you talk about, this overwhelming passion to be the
best at everything I do doesn't always serve me well
in my personal life, and I'm really trying to unpack
(07:17):
what being an athlete has taught me, the pain, the toughness,
the discipline.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
But in the.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Business world, in motherhood, I'm learning vulnerability, flexibility, adapting to
all circumstances. So I really took pride in giving my
energy and lending it to the people around me to
serve them. But I was fucking intense because I at
the end of the day, I wanted to win, and
(07:44):
I wanted to win at all costs, and most people
don't tick like that in the real world, and I'm
learning in real time.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
I think this is one of the hardest things about
transitioning from elite sports to other careers and also frankly
to home life.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
You know, as a partner and a.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Parent, because in sports, the goal is so clear and
you know at the end of the day, no one
has to tell you whether you succeeded or failed, right,
you get immediate feedback just from playing. The result is
like it's immediately visible. And then in your job you
don't really know if you're doing great. And it's even
(08:21):
more ambiguous at home. And I think, like when you
talk about wanting to be the best, there's no such
thing as a best parent or a best partner or
a best boss. You might know if you're if you're
horrible at those things, But am I doing great or good?
Am I better today than I was yesterday? It's so unclear.
(08:42):
And as a much less elite athlete than you, I
found that transition frustrating and reminds me a little bit
of some research that Barry Schwartz and she and Jenger
did where uh, they looked at the differences between people
who are maximizers and satisficers.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
You come across this work before, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
So for but for anyone who doesn't know. Basically, a
maximizer is somebody who's always aiming for the best. You
want the best score on a test. You want the
best job. You want to find the best apartment to
live in, you want to choose the best city. You
want to marry the best person. And satisficers are not
looking for the best, They're looking for the best fit.
(09:20):
So that often means like the job that's good enough
for me, the partner that's the right match for me.
And when I was listening to you, Ashley, and I
was hearing like, maximizer, maximizer, I want to win, I
want to be the best. And the reality is that
in the data, maximizers.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Do better, but they tend to feel worse. Yep, and
you probably live that.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
There's this Okay, I aim extremely high and I get
better results, but at the end of the day, I'm
always comparing what I got to what I wanted, and
oftentimes there's a gap there and if my performance fell
short of my potential or my objective, then I'm going
to be disappointed. And I wonder how much of that
you experience.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Now, Yeah, I think I do.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I really think comparison is the death of creativity, and
I really and confidence And it's so easy in this landscape,
in the way I've been brought up in sports, in
this pursuit of perfection, I'm never happy with myself. But
(10:27):
even when I win, I can't sit in it for
very long because my mindset is always what's next, what's next,
What's next. And Adam, I got to be really honest,
like I feel more at ease and suffering because of this,
because of this pursuit of excellence, And at some point
(10:47):
you kind of just have to like drop the bucket
and realize every day I'm trying to be the best
version of me, and no one's harder on me than
me as an athlete, as a mom, well.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
As I hear you talk about what's next, what's next,
what's next. This is also in some way as a
curse of American culture. We're one of the most future
focused countries on Earth, and there are other cultures that
are more present or past focused. So I was I
was thinking about the Nike just do it slogan, and
if Nike had been founded in a more past focused
(11:23):
culture like Germany, I think their slogan would have been.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Just did it.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Oh, because there's actually research on this that if you
look at Americans happiness, your happiness depends more on how
you think you're going to do tomorrow than how.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
You did yesterday.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
In Germany, that flips, your happiness is less dependent on
how you think you're going to do tomorrow than whether
you're satisfied with how things went yesterday. And I think
the being future focused is great for raising the bar
and you know, and hitting goals and achieving success, it's
not so great for day to day happiness. And so
I think that ability to savor the things that went
(12:01):
well for you last year or last week is pretty important.
And it's not a skill that you get taught in
sports at all.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Stay tuned, we'll be right back after this. How do
you you know?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Because you show up so much and give so much
perspective with teams, with you know, different clients who are
what I consider the most successful high achievers out there.
How how do you function in your own space? Like,
do you ever feel like you're failing? Do you ever
(12:46):
feel like you're not living up to what you're preaching
to everyone? Like, like, that's stressful. It's stressful for me
for you.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Well, thank you, thank you for stressing out of my behalf.
I accept your vicarious stress, and if only I could
offload mine onto you, it would be all good. No. Yeah,
I think I think I've gotten better at this over time,
in part because in teaching about it and writing about
it and podcasting about it, I've started to sort of
(13:19):
force myself to internalize the message that I would deliver
to others.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
A real struggle for me when I started down this
path of I don't even know what to call it
thought leadership. A dozen years ago, I remember there were
a couple of moments where I felt like I had
utterly failed. The first one was I published my first
book and it hit number two on the New York
Times bestseller list. I should have been celebrating. Yeah, who
(13:49):
expects to have a New York Times bestseller? When I
started writing Give and Take, I didn't even know if
anyone other than my mom would read it. And yet, like,
once my publisher said, hey, we want to buy this book,
and you know, we think that it could make a
real impact in the world. And once I got some
early feedback that some of the concepts resonated, my expectations
(14:10):
started to climb and climb and climb, and so then
it was a disappointment to fall short. And then I
knew that one of the most important things I could
do to get the word out about the book was
to give a TED talk, and I got rejected by Ted.
I felt like I failed again and again I should
I should have appreciated the fact that there were incredible
(14:32):
people that wanted me to be on any stage and
that I had a platform to share my ideas.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
But I felt like a total failure.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And it really, actually really took me, taking me about
three years to move past that. So twenty thirteen I
felt like, you know, I fell short on the book.
I failed on not getting the Ted talk. And then
in twenty sixteen, I launched my second book and a
friend called me and said, congratulations, what are you doing
to celebrate And I said nothing, like, like, I'm a writer,
(15:04):
what do you do? You write books? Like? This is
not a big deal, and she said, how many books
do you think you're going to write in a typical decade? Like,
of course, this is a huge milestone. You poured multiple
years of your work.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Life into this. Yeah, you have to celebrate.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
And in that conversation it hit me that I was
making a mistake that I had warned my students about
over and over again at Wharton, which was like, don't
let your expectations rise with your achievements. I mean, I'd
said this so many times. I'd watched my students go
through this process where they accomplished something and then their
expectations rise and they start to take for granted what
(15:44):
yesterday was an extraordinary achievement. And here I was like,
I had gone from thinking, Wow, it's incredible to have
the opportunity to write a book, to Eh, I write
a book, big deal, That's what I do. And so
I realized that the best way to manage that was
to get better at rewinding the clock a little bit.
And if I was going to let my expectations rise
(16:06):
with my achievements, then I had to get in touch
with a former version of myself that had lower expectations.
And so I started thinking about how proud would my
younger self be of what I've achieved now? Like, let's
think back to twenty year old me that was just
excited to become a psychologist and had no idea that
(16:27):
I would ever have a chance to write one book,
let alone multiple books, Like, what would that version of
me think of where I am now? I would be
so proud, And so I have a responsibility to be
that proud now. And so I do this every time
I set a goal, Ashlyn, I think about, if I
achieve that goal, how proud would my younger self be?
(16:48):
And then that's the version of myself that I compare
my current achievement to, not what I did yesterday or
what I expected to be able to pull off tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, absolutely, that is That's there's a lot of power
in that.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
This is what I love about you.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Every time I'm around you or hear you talk, you
always make me think. But you also make me think
on how to better myself and how I can be
better to show up around the people I love the most,
which was you know, back when I was preparing for
the World Cup, I used to always talk about this.
(17:25):
It was the different types of people in the world
and how we function in groups. You know, you have
your givers, your takers, and your matchers. Why was that
the first like, why was that the first big break
in the code here where a lot of people were like,
holy smokes.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It makes you think a lot about how.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Teams click, how organizations click, how are you getting the
best out of the people around you.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Well, I had no idea when I was doing my
research on givers, takers and matches that you were going
to be thinking about these concepts after the World Cup.
And frankly, I'm worried that it might have it might
have distracted you a little bit. I'm like, I don't
know if a goalie needs to be focused on on
interaction styles in you know, in a critical moment when
when you need to be making a save. But I
(18:16):
think the thing that first got me interested in this
topic was I I kept I kept having experiences where
I felt like, well, actually, I mean it was it was.
It was a diving moment where I I basically all
of high school, my diving goal was to be a
(18:38):
state finalist, and then that was that was top twelve.
And in particular, my coach had set a goal freshman
year that I was going to be all stayed and
that would have been top six. So junior year, like,
I surprised myself and maybe him too by by making
the state finals and I finished eighth in the state
and that was That was basically two years after I'd
(19:01):
been the worst diver on my team, and my teammates
made fun of me, calling me Frankenstein because I was
so stiff when I walked.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
I was not cut out in a lot of ways
to be a diver, but I had an amazing coach,
and I put in a lot of work and I
made more progress than I expected, certainly, And so then
I had really high hopes for senior year because I
knew more than two people were graduating, and I knew
that I was. I was going to pour every ounce
of energy I had into getting better as a diver.
(19:32):
And then senior year came around and I finished ninth,
like despite getting getting better, like, I performed worse. And
one of the most brutal parts of that, what for
me felt like a failure or something I'd worked for
for four years, was one of the guys who beat
(19:52):
me had not been a state finalist the previous year
and at diving camp, I had coached him and taught
him how to enter the water without a splash. The
one thing that I excelled at as a diver was
the rip entry, where you just disappear into the water,
and I spent just thousands of hours perfecting that entry,
and his entries were really splashy. As a gymnast, like
(20:14):
in gymnastics, the last thing you ever want to do
is land on your head, so he was never quite
comfortable going head first. And we were at diving camp
together and I remember, you know, saying, hey, Ryan, like,
let me show you a couple of tricks for how
to make your entries cleaner. And he beat me by
a few points and the rip entry could have made
the difference.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
And I remember thinking, like, it's so frustrating that sports
is sometimes zero sump, that if I want to win,
someone else has to lose. And in that case, trying
to help Ryan get closer to winning actually cost me
a place probably, And I wondered, does it have to
be that way? Yeah, if I'd been if I'd been
(20:53):
in more of a pure team sport, I think it
would have been easier to help my teammates. And that
wouldn't have hurt me, but I wondered, you know, as
we move into all kinds of collaborative settings, like what
happens to people who are givers who are motivated to
I mean, my definition of a giver is pretty simple.
It's it's constantly asking what can I do for you?
When you meet other people. And I saw plenty of
(21:14):
people who would not have helped write and who are
takers and who wanted to know, well, what can you
do for me? And as I started studying this, I
realized that a lot of people will tell me, Hey,
my grandma told me there are givers in the world,
and there are takers in the world, and the giver,
you know, the takers might eat better, but the givers
sleep better. But what Grandma didn't mention is that most
(21:36):
people are not pure givers are takers. Most of us
we don't want to be too selfish or too generous,
and so we become matchers, which is to say, I'll
do something for you if you do something for me,
And that way, you know, I'm going to protect myself
against the takers, but I'm not going to overextend myself
like givers sometimes do. And I just thought that these
were fascinating dynamics, and I wanted to know, how can
(21:58):
we how can we build a world with more givers,
and how do we also build a world where givers
get to become the rising tide that lifts all boats
as opposed to you.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Know, sinking at the hands of takers.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
So with that framework, how how did this play out
in your life as a soccer player?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
I will say this and I haven't.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
This is the first time because as you're talking, I'm
like unpacking this something emotional that's bumping up against a
few scars, and I think it's important to talk about
because it's very similar. When I got to the US team,
I was behind Hope solo for ten years, and then
when I had my moment, I to be a number one,
(22:44):
and I was competing and fighting for the starting position
with a listenaire. I didn't get it, and I had
a choice to be the best teammate to her and
the best leader I could be. From a position of
showing up and giving everything I had and knowing I
(23:08):
would never see the field. I guess what I'm trying
to say is what's been the hardest thing for me
as now I'm a retired athlete, and so much of
my worth is how I serve my community. The hardest
thing for me is to hear the critics say things,
(23:31):
or people say, well, you never did anything.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
You never played in a World Cup.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I went to two, and I trained every day, didn't
have a day off for thirty something days to prepare
my team for success.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
For Battle, I put my ego aside.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I played my role, and the days I barely thought
I could move, I threw myself in goal after practice,
and I had Kristin Press shoot on me one hundred
and fifty t times when my body was barely like
you know, it was thrashed. And I do feel that
(24:09):
so much of my worth and my accomplishments were Oh
but you never You never were a starter for the
national team. You only have twenty five thirty caps or something.
And it's interesting because you.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It makes you feel so small.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I spent my whole career insanely successful. There was a
reason why I was on those teams. There's a reason
why those teams did so well. But yet I always
feel that I minimize my accomplishments and my worth because
I wasn't what people view as the starter or the star.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
But my work was harder behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
My work and the pressure of showing up and serving
other people. When I knew I wouldn't get the pat
on the back or the we see you, we appreciate you,
I just did it because that was my job to
show up in that role and be the best version
I could be so everyone else could be great the
(25:16):
day of the game. And sometimes I put in a
ball what these people say, and it holds so much
worth in my mind that really undermines how much and
how hard I worked to serve these teams to be successful.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
I think that's such a travesty, and I'm glad you're
recognizing it now. Actually, because in psychology there's a there's
a term name it to tame it that I think.
I think that that phrase is helpful for a lot
of people. Right Once you can describe the trap you're
falling in it, it's a little bit easier to catch
yourself and then and then get out of it. And
(25:56):
I think in this case, one of the things that's
so unfortunate you aside for the fact that no one
ever wants to be standing in front of a Kristen
Press kid so let's be clear, I would not wish
that I were sending me but but that aside, I
think we at the end of the day, we're really
good at measuring team success, and we're really good at
(26:18):
measuring individual metrics that that capture your own accomplishment. What
we fail to do is measure your contribution.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
To the team.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
I'm thinking like in basketball, Shane Battier was known as
the no stats All Star.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
And despite the fact.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
That they're like there weren't a lot of stats, like
you could if you wanted to, you could watch the
game and count the number of times that he dove
for a loose ball. You could, you know, you could
start recording the number of hours that he was watching
game film to figure out, like where on the court
do I need to try to force Kobe Bryant to
go where his shooting percentage is lower? Or you know,
(26:56):
in chance case, not even watching the game film but
studying the stats to find you know, those those windows
of opportunity.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
This is wide open, and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I'm curious about looking back, like, how would you measure
whether somebody is an effective giver on the.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Pitch, an effective giver.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, how do you know if somebody is making their
team better other than the obvious like okay, scores, saves, assists.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, I think what made leaders? And you talk about
this often, so I don't want to really get this wrong,
but I really feel this in my heart when I
because I was a captain of my club team for
seven ten plus years, Like, I know.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
What it's like to be a leader.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
However, in sports, I feel like we give leadership roles
to the people who take up the most space, the
loudest one. Oh yeah, the biggest stars, the loudest, which
gives them this type of credibility that they are the best.
What I learned from a Becky Souerbrun, what I've learned
(28:22):
from a listenai. What I've learned from these very very
intelligent people who don't scream and don't take up this
crazy amount of space that makes them feel that.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
They're better or smarter than the group.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
It was their ability to get the best out of
everyone around them which drove.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
The success of the team.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
It wasn't necessarily this arrogance that I'm the smartest, i
am the best, I'm the most SUCCESSU I'm the star.
I'm learning in real time that now I'm as I'm
sitting in work spaces with high level executives, I really
am looking around the table trying to see who's trying
(29:14):
to take up the most space, which to me are
usually the people who are the most unprepared, who are
the most anxious about how they view them theirself like
to even be in the role. So it's just this
really weird learning process for me. And I'm trying to
learn now in leadership roles in business to sit back
(29:37):
and let other people take over the room so the
production like everyone's productive and the creativity goes up, and
I don't steal the light or I don't steal the joy,
I don't steal the moment. I think now we're in now,
we're in a time where the loudest people aren't the
(29:59):
leaders in haptens anymore. It's who's getting the best out
of the entire unit.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
So interesting, Yeah, I mean that if it makes me
think there's I mean, there's such a clear parallel between
sports and business in that way where I think in
we see the exact same dynamic in like I think
about Alan Benson's research that he's led on salespeople for example,
where like the salesperson who brings in the most revenue
(30:26):
is the most likely to get promoted to manager, that
that salesperson is not actually the best manager. That person's
good at at, you know, getting deals closed with customers
and clients, not necessarily at making a team of salespeople
more successful and empirically, if you wanted to promote the
best leader, it's not the person who sells the most.
(30:48):
It's the person who gives the most referrals to other
salespeople looking for ways to lift their teammates up as
a leading indicator that they're going to be great leaders.
And it sounds like you you saw that dynamic in
soccer really clearly.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
I think I get why.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
You know, oftentimes the captain is the star player because
everybody respects that person and like nobody's going to question
their authority when when they're the one who you know,
who has either the most recognition or you know, the
most rare and irreplaceable skills. At the same time, though,
that person is not always motivated and qualified to lead,
(31:27):
and the worst thing you can do is promote a
toxic superstar into a captain role. Or into a leadership role,
because then they're actually their voice is amplified and they're
modeling the wrong behavior. So I have to ask you, Ashlynd,
you you played for in college? You played for the
winning this coach soccer history, Anton Doorance.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Go heels, go heels.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
I think a lot of people would would look at
that record and say, well, you could pull that off
just by you know, being a great recruiter, and then
you end up attracting a bunch of stars, and then
year after year everybody wants to play for the greatest
coach and the greatest team. I know it was more
than that. What did you learn from Anson about culture
building and about creating a team that was more than
(32:13):
the sum of its parts.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
It was very humbling to learn from him. It was.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
He had a unique gift to see people.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
In terms of potential, and.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
He would always say potential means shit if you're not
willing to do the work to get yourself where you imagine,
which I don't know how many people know this, but
we were ranked every single day in practice. We had
twenty three day every single day. Everything was about stats.
(32:58):
Everything was about numbers, and you would walk up to
training and there was a bulletin and you were ranked
in everything passing and moving, shooting, how many goals you
gave up, how many turnovers I mean everything, speed, how
many high level sprints you can hit, what's your mock speed?
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I mean, from top to bottom.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
But you were also ranked on how you show up,
what your character looks like, where you give her, where
you were, where you a taker.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
So there was core values he made us.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Every class had meetings every week, and he would make
you read books and you would talk about how you
were going to be a person who shows up, which
is just as important as the player. So we had
these core values and we read books like Man Searches
(33:58):
for Meaning and all of these great things that gave
us perspective about just being a good athlete wasn't enough.
We wouldn't contribute to our society, to our small groups
if we were assholes. That's what he used to always say,
I mean, and he really it's humbling, Adam, to sit
(34:22):
on a paper, to get a paper and say this
is what people think of you outside.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Of sport, and its powerful.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
It's so powerful, and everyone's so scared to do it
because how they will internalize it. For me, I wanted
people don't care how much you know until they know
how much you care.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
These things were.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Burned in my memory of the core values we would
have to live by, and when we would warm up,
we would have to recite them, and we were graded
on it virtually, and it changed my whole dynamic of
my life.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
What I think is brilliant about that is, first of all,
the idea that you're going to be evaluated not only
on your confidence but also on your character. That's huge
because then you have to think about how do I
show up, how do I treat other people?
Speaker 4 (35:13):
What's my value added here?
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Secondly, I think what's also really powerful is I work
with so many leaders who are afraid to give feedback
that often because they think they're going to stress everyone out.
I found the exact opposite that if you know you're
going to be assessed every day, it starts to become
just a daily routine as opposed to the quarterly performance
review that is a tremendous amount of pressure. And so
(35:37):
the idea that we're going to do this daily means
that my behavior every day matters, and I have an
opportunity to earn a better reputation and to demonstrate my
character differently tomorrow than I did today. That is, I
means such a clear way of motivating people to think
about their growth on a day to day basis. If
it were up to me, I would rate, not rank.
(36:00):
There's there's a lot of evidence that forced ranking rankings
can can lead people to compete with the very people
they're supposed to collaborate with. And so to say, hey,
we're a team, but I'm gonna pit you against each other.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
I don't love that.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, And this is I think where it goes full circle. Adam, Like,
I really think that when I talk about the unlearning
or the rethinking, I carry competition into everything and it's
toxic and I have to not lose my identity that
makes me great. But also not this competitive fire that
(36:38):
when I walk into the room, everyone's like, this is
this is she takes too much? She put it makes
me uncomfortable, this winning competitive fire mentality. It's it's not
good for me, and that as a leader, if I'm
not getting the best out of everyone, I'm failing. So
(36:59):
that part of competition and that part of ranking I
have to leave at the door.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
I think that makes a ton of sense. You're making
me rethink something actually, which is maybe you don't have
to bring the best out in everyone. Maybe maybe the
goal is a little bit more modest, which is to
say I want to make everyone better.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That part it's powerful, right, And this is what There's
something that you said and I wrote this down because
it's so true, and I swear I'm going to bring
this in every meeting. It said, the easiest way to
get people to tell you the truth is to prove
to them that you can handle the truth. That is
(37:50):
so powerful, because I do think in sports we have
massive egos, we have the ability to deflect, We are
coachable when we want to be. But it's this we
can shell out all the oh you got to be better,
you got to do this, you got to do that,
But can you handle someone coming after you that way?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
It's really interesting.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
It's I can't stress enough how important it is. Constantinos
KOUTI first and I were studying this around when you
and I met, and we found that so many leaders
asked for feedback, but people didn't know whether they were
genuine about wanting it, and they often found like you
didn't really mean it.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
You said you wanted.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
To hear it, but then you completely shut down my idea,
or you know, you just ignored it because you were
either threatened by it or you were too busy to
pay attention. And we found that it's often helpful instead
of actually just asking for feedback, to give yourself feedback
out loud, and that way you're not just claiming you're open,
you're actually proving that you can handle the truth. Yeah,
(38:55):
by saying like, here are the notes I've been given
last week, Here's the three sixty review that I got
about what I need to improve at. Here's what my
team has told me I should be working on. Here
are my own weaknesses and development goals. And guess what,
When you do that, people are much more aware of
your sincere commitment to listening and trying to put their
(39:17):
suggestions into action.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
And I think that.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Sometimes I hear leaders when I talk about this. Leaders
will come back and say, but I don't want everyone
to know what I'm bad at, And I'm like.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
They already know. Yeah, you can't hide it from them.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
The people on your team, they already know what you
stuck at, And so you might as well get credit
for having the self awareness to recognize and the humility
and integrity to admit it and start working on it.
And I think that is the best way to keep
getting better.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Tell me when you've when you will the last time
you got it wrong.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I just want to know.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I want to I want to know the last time
you really got it wrong? And how how do you
show up? Like how do you acknowledge it?
Speaker 3 (40:08):
This this actually happened over the weekend. I was I
was getting I was getting feedback from a co author
on a project who who said to me, you know,
I think that you're the details are probably boring, but
who basically said, I think you're you're approaching this argument
(40:29):
wrong and it would be much clearer if we restructured
it this way. And I started fighting back and I
said no, no, no, no, Like, here's the reason I did
it the way I did it. And my my co
author said to me, it's nice to meet your logic
fully again, and I was like, oh, guilty is charge?
(40:51):
Here we go, like I'm a big believer in Carl
Wike's mantra argue like you're right, listen like you're wrong.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
But the danger for me is I can get so
passionate about an argument that when people hear me argue
like I'm right, they don't realize that I'm willing to
listen like I'm wrong. And so when I got the
logical Lae feedback again, I had to say, Okay, wait
a minute, let's shift gears here, tell me again what
I'm missing, and I'm going to repeat the point back
(41:21):
to you, and then we're going to try it your way.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
And we did and it was better.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
And then I did what I often do when I
get something wrong, is I go into happy Gilmore mode,
and I was like, you were right, I was wrong.
You're smart, I'm stupid, You're good looking, I'm not attractive.
And that's my maha kopa, Oh my goodness. It's like
(41:48):
it's good to hear you're human too.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
I think that validates a lot of the struggle for me.
But I do I say this because I asked this
question and so much about this podcast of you know,
the reason why it's name Wide Open is because we
are so much more than what we do. So I
have this question for you, and I ask everyone on
(42:13):
this show, what moment in your life really split you
wide open, that really changed the landscape of everything your life?
How you show up. It can be with work, it
can be outside of work. But like, what is that
moment most people don't know about you that really shook
(42:33):
you to your core, that made you really change and
think about vulnerability and how you show up and.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Just like who Adam is.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
I will never forget being in middle school and being
on the phone with my best friend Con and we
got into a stupid argument about a movie quote. I
think it was from robinhood Men Into but I'm not
one hundred percent sure. And we both seen the movie
multiple times. We were both sure we were right, and
(43:07):
we must have argued for ten or twelve or fifteen
minutes and then hung up to go and check to
check the movie. And we got back on the phone
and I wouldn't admit I was wrong, and I tried
to twist the argument to say no, it was actually
(43:29):
like I was paraphrasing, and here's.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Like, you know, here's what I was trying to convey.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
And Con said to me, shut up at him, you
know what, this is ridiculous. I won't talk to you
until you admit you were wrong, and he hung up
the phone. And we lived in the same neighborhood. We
rode the bus to school together. We would ride our
bikes to each other's houses, like on the weekends. We
(43:55):
like we talked every day, and we went several days
without speaking because I couldn't bring myself to admit I
was wrong and talk about splitting me wide open. I
woke up one morning, I was like, what is wrong
with me? Why is it so hard for me to
admit that I was wrong? And I realized that my
identity was all wrapped up in being smart, and being
(44:18):
smart was all about getting the right answer, but it
was coming at the expense of my most important relationship
at the time. And I realized it was more important
to me to get it right than to be right,
and that I never wanted my desire to feel like
(44:40):
I was right. I never wanted that to stand in
the way of maintaining a meaningful relationship. And that was
that was transformative for me.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Wow, that's powerful, Adam. You You are incredible. You're incredible human,
and you're so humble and you're so kind, and we're
all so lucky to know you. To be able to
read your work, to be able to hear your podcasts,
to really experience and unpack the questions you have us
(45:17):
ask ourselves, and I'm grateful for it. So thank you
for taking the time today to come on to Wide Open.
Thank you for being vulnerable and helping me unpack my
transition and identity.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
Well.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I appreciate your appreciation, and I've you know, for a
long time now. I've admired your both your intensity and
your equanimity as an athlete. And I'm so glad that
Wide Opened is giving people outside of soccer a chance
to learn from you and also to hear you grappling
(45:55):
with the things we all struggle with in real time.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
I think that's a gift. So thank you for having.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I appreciate it, and we will hopefully see you soon.
Wide Open with Ashlin Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
You can find us on the.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronov, and Lucy Jones.
Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan
(46:33):
and Emily Rudder and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris,
Hi, everyone, Welcome back to another week of Wide Open.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Today.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I am so excited to talk to the brilliant, incredible
human who I am lucky to know and who I
have met along my journey as a professional athlete, Adam Grant.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to Wide Open. How are you?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Thanks, Ashlan. It's a lot of pressure. They're we'll see
how this goes.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
You're, you know, professor, and you're a family man and
a father. You're just ticking so many boxes. I don't
know how you do it, so please tell.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Me your secrets.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Well, you're too kind, Ashland. I think. I mean.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
The short answer is, when you get cut from the
ninth grade soccer team, you have to find something else
to try to excel at. So I've played ten years
of soccer. I think I was barely good enough to
be a travel team in middle school, but not good
enough to make my high school team. And when that
door closed, I sort of started barging through others and
have been doing that ever since.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I love it, and I know this is so interesting
because you know, I have kept up with you for
so many years. I really have enjoyed our time together
when I was a player and your work that you know,
we're all so lucky you choose to show up and
share with everyone. But I want to know more about you.
(01:31):
I want to know more about the young Adam growing
up in the suburbs of Detroit. I'm interested to know who.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Adam was as a little boy.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Who was you know, a swimmer, a basketball player, you know,
a creative thought provoker who asked a bunch of questions,
who lived life through I mean, you're a data nerd,
which I love about you because I like, for me,
if I don't see the numbers and I don't have
the fact, it's hard for me to buy in.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I gotta be honest.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So I love the way you think, but I want
to know why you are who you are and what
was the process like?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
All right, So I think I think the place to
start was, Yeah, I was definitely obsessed with sports as
a kid. I loved soccer and basketball especially, and as
I guess, at some point in middle school, my friends
and I started a fantasy basketball and football league, and
I thought it was going to be a fun opportunity
to talk more about sports, and instead they just made
(02:31):
fun of me the whole time, calling me mister facts.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
It's brutal.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, this happened when we were trading sports cards too, Like,
you know, I'd start to argue about what were fair
terms for a deal and they would say, shut up,
mister facts. So I was a pretty nerdy kid, and
I definitely loved I loved data, and I loved challenging myself.
And I think two things happened that piqued my interest
(02:58):
early in psychology. One was I started coaching my younger
sister's soccer team, and I had to try to figure
out how to motivate her teammates and get kids who
were you know, all swarming toward the ball at the
same time, to try to coordinate and think about playing
a position. And that was fun and it was a
really interesting challenge. And then I when I got cut
(03:20):
from the soccer team to start high school, I went
all in on springboard diving, and diving was a sport
that just it forced me to get deeper into psychology
because I had to figure out, how do I overcome
my fear of heights, how do I motivate myself to
to try dives that I think are outside of my
ability level and I'm probably going to end up doing
(03:42):
a belly flop or a backsmack. And then I started
coaching diving too and had to motivate other divers, you know,
in similar situations. And so I think those experiences of
you know, of both diving and then coaching diving in soccer,
just they made me fascinated by psychology and I wanted
to understand what makes us take better and how I
can help other people bring out the best in themselves.
(04:03):
And that I think planet enough seeds for the career
that I have today that I really couldn't think of
doing anything else.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Wow, it's you know, it makes me think because I
fall on your every word, which I love because it's
so so digestible, but also because I relate, I understand.
I think as kids, you learn so much in the
process of understanding why you asked the questions you did.
(04:33):
But did it come from your parents? Did a part
of that upbringing like that secret sauce people talk about,
did you inherit that from learning things about your parents?
Speaker 4 (04:47):
For sure?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
I found out actually after I declared psychology as a
major in college, that both of my parents had studied
psychology in college.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
And I didn't know.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Wow, I should have known because terms like self feeling prophecy,
we're turned around in my household like that was that
was normal dialogue. But I didn't realize that was you know,
that was a term that came out of social science,
and I think they were because they were a lawyer
and a teacher. It never really came up, and I
think that you know that definitely. I think sparked some
(05:20):
kind of both curiosity and also like a sense of familiarity.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
When I started studying these topics, I was.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Like, wait that, I know that I've already heard about that,
But enough about me. I want to talk more about you,
because I think when we first met, I was struck
by this strange duality I guess, and maybe the strange
is the wrong word for it, but it was. It
was an unusual attention for me. Between you came across
(05:46):
as both very chill and also extremely intense.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
I get that a lot, do you, because normally I.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Think about these two things as opposite, and you managed
to exude both of them, and I wanted to know
where that came from.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Wow, you're the first person that's really asked me that
I and I can't wait to unpack this with you
and like I'm int a really weird process in my
life where I'm unpacking who I was as a professional
athlete and how I've closed that door, and how it
(06:19):
serves me as a partner, as a mom, as a
leader outside of sport, and also rethinking the way sport
made me such a great athlete but maybe not such
a great mom and partner. I was on this pursuit
of greatness, and it was weird for me because I
(06:43):
wanted to be great at everything I did, and it
wasn't something I could just drop when I walked into
my house.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I wanted to be the best at.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Everything, and it really left me disappointed a lot, and
it doesn't necessarily serve me as a mom. The intensity
part you talk about, this overwhelming passion to be the
best at everything I do doesn't always serve me well
in my personal life, and I'm really trying to unpack
(07:17):
what being an athlete has taught me, the pain, the toughness,
the discipline.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
But in the.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Business world, in motherhood, I'm learning vulnerability, flexibility, adapting to
all circumstances. So I really took pride in giving my
energy and lending it to the people around me to
serve them. But I was fucking intense because I at
the end of the day, I wanted to win, and
(07:44):
I wanted to win at all costs, and most people
don't tick like that in the real world, and I'm
learning in real time.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
I think this is one of the hardest things about
transitioning from elite sports to other careers and also frankly
to home life.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
You know, as a partner and a.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Parent, because in sports, the goal is so clear and
you know at the end of the day, no one
has to tell you whether you succeeded or failed, right,
you get immediate feedback just from playing. The result is
like it's immediately visible. And then in your job you
don't really know if you're doing great. And it's even
(08:21):
more ambiguous at home. And I think, like when you
talk about wanting to be the best, there's no such
thing as a best parent or a best partner or
a best boss. You might know if you're if you're
horrible at those things, But am I doing great or good?
Am I better today than I was yesterday? It's so unclear.
(08:42):
And as a much less elite athlete than you, I
found that transition frustrating and reminds me a little bit
of some research that Barry Schwartz and she and Jenger
did where uh, they looked at the differences between people
who are maximizers and satisficers.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
You come across this work before, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
So for but for anyone who doesn't know. Basically, a
maximizer is somebody who's always aiming for the best. You
want the best score on a test. You want the
best job. You want to find the best apartment to
live in, you want to choose the best city. You
want to marry the best person. And satisficers are not
looking for the best, They're looking for the best fit.
(09:20):
So that often means like the job that's good enough
for me, the partner that's the right match for me.
And when I was listening to you, Ashley, and I
was hearing like, maximizer, maximizer, I want to win, I
want to be the best. And the reality is that
in the data, maximizers.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Do better, but they tend to feel worse. Yep, and
you probably live that.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
There's this Okay, I aim extremely high and I get
better results, but at the end of the day, I'm
always comparing what I got to what I wanted, and
oftentimes there's a gap there and if my performance fell
short of my potential or my objective, then I'm going
to be disappointed. And I wonder how much of that
you experience.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Now, Yeah, I think I do.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I really think comparison is the death of creativity, and
I really and confidence And it's so easy in this landscape,
in the way I've been brought up in sports, in
this pursuit of perfection, I'm never happy with myself. But
(10:27):
even when I win, I can't sit in it for
very long because my mindset is always what's next, what's next,
What's next. And Adam, I got to be really honest,
like I feel more at ease and suffering because of this,
because of this pursuit of excellence, And at some point
(10:47):
you kind of just have to like drop the bucket
and realize every day I'm trying to be the best
version of me, and no one's harder on me than
me as an athlete, as a mom, well.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
As I hear you talk about what's next, what's next,
what's next. This is also in some way as a
curse of American culture. We're one of the most future
focused countries on Earth, and there are other cultures that
are more present or past focused. So I was I
was thinking about the Nike just do it slogan, and
if Nike had been founded in a more past focused
(11:23):
culture like Germany, I think their slogan would have been.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Just did it.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Oh, because there's actually research on this that if you
look at Americans happiness, your happiness depends more on how
you think you're going to do tomorrow than how.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
You did yesterday.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
In Germany, that flips, your happiness is less dependent on
how you think you're going to do tomorrow than whether
you're satisfied with how things went yesterday. And I think
the being future focused is great for raising the bar
and you know, and hitting goals and achieving success, it's
not so great for day to day happiness. And so
I think that ability to savor the things that went
(12:01):
well for you last year or last week is pretty important.
And it's not a skill that you get taught in
sports at all.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Stay tuned, we'll be right back after this. How do
you you know?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Because you show up so much and give so much
perspective with teams, with you know, different clients who are
what I consider the most successful high achievers out there.
How how do you function in your own space? Like,
do you ever feel like you're failing? Do you ever
(12:46):
feel like you're not living up to what you're preaching
to everyone? Like, like, that's stressful. It's stressful for me
for you.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Well, thank you, thank you for stressing out of my behalf.
I accept your vicarious stress, and if only I could
offload mine onto you, it would be all good. No. Yeah,
I think I think I've gotten better at this over time,
in part because in teaching about it and writing about
it and podcasting about it, I've started to sort of
(13:19):
force myself to internalize the message that I would deliver
to others.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
A real struggle for me when I started down this
path of I don't even know what to call it
thought leadership. A dozen years ago, I remember there were
a couple of moments where I felt like I had
utterly failed. The first one was I published my first
book and it hit number two on the New York
Times bestseller list. I should have been celebrating. Yeah, who
(13:49):
expects to have a New York Times bestseller? When I
started writing Give and Take, I didn't even know if
anyone other than my mom would read it. And yet, like,
once my publisher said, hey, we want to buy this book,
and you know, we think that it could make a
real impact in the world. And once I got some
early feedback that some of the concepts resonated, my expectations
(14:10):
started to climb and climb and climb, and so then
it was a disappointment to fall short. And then I
knew that one of the most important things I could
do to get the word out about the book was
to give a TED talk, and I got rejected by Ted.
I felt like I failed again and again I should
I should have appreciated the fact that there were incredible
(14:32):
people that wanted me to be on any stage and
that I had a platform to share my ideas.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
But I felt like a total failure.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And it really, actually really took me, taking me about
three years to move past that. So twenty thirteen I
felt like, you know, I fell short on the book.
I failed on not getting the Ted talk. And then
in twenty sixteen, I launched my second book and a
friend called me and said, congratulations, what are you doing
to celebrate And I said nothing, like, like, I'm a writer,
(15:04):
what do you do? You write books? Like? This is
not a big deal, and she said, how many books
do you think you're going to write in a typical decade? Like,
of course, this is a huge milestone. You poured multiple
years of your work.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Life into this. Yeah, you have to celebrate.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
And in that conversation it hit me that I was
making a mistake that I had warned my students about
over and over again at Wharton, which was like, don't
let your expectations rise with your achievements. I mean, I'd
said this so many times. I'd watched my students go
through this process where they accomplished something and then their
expectations rise and they start to take for granted what
(15:44):
yesterday was an extraordinary achievement. And here I was like,
I had gone from thinking, Wow, it's incredible to have
the opportunity to write a book, to Eh, I write
a book, big deal, That's what I do. And so
I realized that the best way to manage that was
to get better at rewinding the clock a little bit.
And if I was going to let my expectations rise
(16:06):
with my achievements, then I had to get in touch
with a former version of myself that had lower expectations.
And so I started thinking about how proud would my
younger self be of what I've achieved now? Like, let's
think back to twenty year old me that was just
excited to become a psychologist and had no idea that
(16:27):
I would ever have a chance to write one book,
let alone multiple books, Like, what would that version of
me think of where I am now? I would be
so proud, And so I have a responsibility to be
that proud now. And so I do this every time
I set a goal, Ashlyn, I think about, if I
achieve that goal, how proud would my younger self be?
(16:48):
And then that's the version of myself that I compare
my current achievement to, not what I did yesterday or
what I expected to be able to pull off tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, absolutely, that is That's there's a lot of power
in that.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
This is what I love about you.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Every time I'm around you or hear you talk, you
always make me think. But you also make me think
on how to better myself and how I can be
better to show up around the people I love the most,
which was you know, back when I was preparing for
the World Cup, I used to always talk about this.
(17:25):
It was the different types of people in the world
and how we function in groups. You know, you have
your givers, your takers, and your matchers. Why was that
the first like, why was that the first big break
in the code here where a lot of people were like,
holy smokes.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It makes you think a lot about how.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Teams click, how organizations click, how are you getting the
best out of the people around you.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Well, I had no idea when I was doing my
research on givers, takers and matches that you were going
to be thinking about these concepts after the World Cup.
And frankly, I'm worried that it might have it might
have distracted you a little bit. I'm like, I don't
know if a goalie needs to be focused on on
interaction styles in you know, in a critical moment when
when you need to be making a save. But I
(18:16):
think the thing that first got me interested in this
topic was I I kept I kept having experiences where
I felt like, well, actually, I mean it was it was.
It was a diving moment where I I basically all
of high school, my diving goal was to be a
(18:38):
state finalist, and then that was that was top twelve.
And in particular, my coach had set a goal freshman
year that I was going to be all stayed and
that would have been top six. So junior year, like,
I surprised myself and maybe him too by by making
the state finals and I finished eighth in the state
and that was That was basically two years after I'd
(19:01):
been the worst diver on my team, and my teammates
made fun of me, calling me Frankenstein because I was
so stiff when I walked.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
I was not cut out in a lot of ways
to be a diver, but I had an amazing coach,
and I put in a lot of work and I
made more progress than I expected, certainly, And so then
I had really high hopes for senior year because I
knew more than two people were graduating, and I knew
that I was. I was going to pour every ounce
of energy I had into getting better as a diver.
(19:32):
And then senior year came around and I finished ninth,
like despite getting getting better, like, I performed worse. And
one of the most brutal parts of that, what for
me felt like a failure or something I'd worked for
for four years, was one of the guys who beat
(19:52):
me had not been a state finalist the previous year
and at diving camp, I had coached him and taught
him how to enter the water without a splash. The
one thing that I excelled at as a diver was
the rip entry, where you just disappear into the water,
and I spent just thousands of hours perfecting that entry,
and his entries were really splashy. As a gymnast, like
(20:14):
in gymnastics, the last thing you ever want to do
is land on your head, so he was never quite
comfortable going head first. And we were at diving camp
together and I remember, you know, saying, hey, Ryan, like,
let me show you a couple of tricks for how
to make your entries cleaner. And he beat me by
a few points and the rip entry could have made
the difference.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
And I remember thinking, like, it's so frustrating that sports
is sometimes zero sump, that if I want to win,
someone else has to lose. And in that case, trying
to help Ryan get closer to winning actually cost me
a place probably, And I wondered, does it have to
be that way? Yeah, if I'd been if I'd been
(20:53):
in more of a pure team sport, I think it
would have been easier to help my teammates. And that
wouldn't have hurt me, but I wondered, you know, as
we move into all kinds of collaborative settings, like what
happens to people who are givers who are motivated to
I mean, my definition of a giver is pretty simple.
It's it's constantly asking what can I do for you?
When you meet other people. And I saw plenty of
(21:14):
people who would not have helped write and who are
takers and who wanted to know, well, what can you
do for me? And as I started studying this, I
realized that a lot of people will tell me, Hey,
my grandma told me there are givers in the world,
and there are takers in the world, and the giver,
you know, the takers might eat better, but the givers
sleep better. But what Grandma didn't mention is that most
(21:36):
people are not pure givers are takers. Most of us
we don't want to be too selfish or too generous,
and so we become matchers, which is to say, I'll
do something for you if you do something for me,
And that way, you know, I'm going to protect myself
against the takers, but I'm not going to overextend myself
like givers sometimes do. And I just thought that these
were fascinating dynamics, and I wanted to know, how can
(21:58):
we how can we build a world with more givers,
and how do we also build a world where givers
get to become the rising tide that lifts all boats
as opposed to you.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Know, sinking at the hands of takers.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
So with that framework, how how did this play out
in your life as a soccer player?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
I will say this and I haven't.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
This is the first time because as you're talking, I'm
like unpacking this something emotional that's bumping up against a
few scars, and I think it's important to talk about
because it's very similar. When I got to the US team,
I was behind Hope solo for ten years, and then
when I had my moment, I to be a number one,
(22:44):
and I was competing and fighting for the starting position
with a listenaire. I didn't get it, and I had
a choice to be the best teammate to her and
the best leader I could be. From a position of
showing up and giving everything I had and knowing I
(23:08):
would never see the field. I guess what I'm trying
to say is what's been the hardest thing for me
as now I'm a retired athlete, and so much of
my worth is how I serve my community. The hardest
thing for me is to hear the critics say things,
(23:31):
or people say, well, you never did anything.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
You never played in a World Cup.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I went to two, and I trained every day, didn't
have a day off for thirty something days to prepare
my team for success.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
For Battle, I put my ego aside.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I played my role, and the days I barely thought
I could move, I threw myself in goal after practice,
and I had Kristin Press shoot on me one hundred
and fifty t times when my body was barely like
you know, it was thrashed. And I do feel that
(24:09):
so much of my worth and my accomplishments were Oh
but you never You never were a starter for the
national team. You only have twenty five thirty caps or something.
And it's interesting because you.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It makes you feel so small.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I spent my whole career insanely successful. There was a
reason why I was on those teams. There's a reason
why those teams did so well. But yet I always
feel that I minimize my accomplishments and my worth because
I wasn't what people view as the starter or the star.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
But my work was harder behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
My work and the pressure of showing up and serving
other people. When I knew I wouldn't get the pat
on the back or the we see you, we appreciate you,
I just did it because that was my job to
show up in that role and be the best version
I could be so everyone else could be great the
(25:16):
day of the game. And sometimes I put in a
ball what these people say, and it holds so much
worth in my mind that really undermines how much and
how hard I worked to serve these teams to be successful.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
I think that's such a travesty, and I'm glad you're
recognizing it now. Actually, because in psychology there's a there's
a term name it to tame it that I think.
I think that that phrase is helpful for a lot
of people. Right Once you can describe the trap you're
falling in it, it's a little bit easier to catch
yourself and then and then get out of it. And
(25:56):
I think in this case, one of the things that's
so unfortunate you aside for the fact that no one
ever wants to be standing in front of a Kristen
Press kid so let's be clear, I would not wish
that I were sending me but but that aside, I
think we at the end of the day, we're really
good at measuring team success, and we're really good at
(26:18):
measuring individual metrics that that capture your own accomplishment. What
we fail to do is measure your contribution.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
To the team.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
I'm thinking like in basketball, Shane Battier was known as
the no stats All Star.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
And despite the fact.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
That they're like there weren't a lot of stats, like
you could if you wanted to, you could watch the
game and count the number of times that he dove
for a loose ball. You could, you know, you could
start recording the number of hours that he was watching
game film to figure out, like where on the court
do I need to try to force Kobe Bryant to
go where his shooting percentage is lower? Or you know,
(26:56):
in chance case, not even watching the game film but
studying the stats to find you know, those those windows
of opportunity.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
This is wide open, and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I'm curious about looking back, like, how would you measure
whether somebody is an effective giver on the.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Pitch, an effective giver.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, how do you know if somebody is making their
team better other than the obvious like okay, scores, saves, assists.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, I think what made leaders? And you talk about
this often, so I don't want to really get this wrong,
but I really feel this in my heart when I
because I was a captain of my club team for
seven ten plus years, Like, I know.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
What it's like to be a leader.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
However, in sports, I feel like we give leadership roles
to the people who take up the most space, the
loudest one. Oh yeah, the biggest stars, the loudest, which
gives them this type of credibility that they are the best.
What I learned from a Becky Souerbrun, what I've learned
(28:22):
from a listenai. What I've learned from these very very
intelligent people who don't scream and don't take up this
crazy amount of space that makes them feel that.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
They're better or smarter than the group.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
It was their ability to get the best out of
everyone around them which drove.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
The success of the team.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
It wasn't necessarily this arrogance that I'm the smartest, i
am the best, I'm the most SUCCESSU I'm the star.
I'm learning in real time that now I'm as I'm
sitting in work spaces with high level executives, I really
am looking around the table trying to see who's trying
(29:14):
to take up the most space, which to me are
usually the people who are the most unprepared, who are
the most anxious about how they view them theirself like
to even be in the role. So it's just this
really weird learning process for me. And I'm trying to
learn now in leadership roles in business to sit back
(29:37):
and let other people take over the room so the
production like everyone's productive and the creativity goes up, and
I don't steal the light or I don't steal the joy,
I don't steal the moment. I think now we're in now,
we're in a time where the loudest people aren't the
(29:59):
leaders in haptens anymore. It's who's getting the best out
of the entire unit.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
So interesting, Yeah, I mean that if it makes me
think there's I mean, there's such a clear parallel between
sports and business in that way where I think in
we see the exact same dynamic in like I think
about Alan Benson's research that he's led on salespeople for example,
where like the salesperson who brings in the most revenue
(30:26):
is the most likely to get promoted to manager, that
that salesperson is not actually the best manager. That person's
good at at, you know, getting deals closed with customers
and clients, not necessarily at making a team of salespeople
more successful and empirically, if you wanted to promote the
best leader, it's not the person who sells the most.
(30:48):
It's the person who gives the most referrals to other
salespeople looking for ways to lift their teammates up as
a leading indicator that they're going to be great leaders.
And it sounds like you you saw that dynamic in
soccer really clearly.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
I think I get why.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
You know, oftentimes the captain is the star player because
everybody respects that person and like nobody's going to question
their authority when when they're the one who you know,
who has either the most recognition or you know, the
most rare and irreplaceable skills. At the same time, though,
that person is not always motivated and qualified to lead,
(31:27):
and the worst thing you can do is promote a
toxic superstar into a captain role. Or into a leadership role,
because then they're actually their voice is amplified and they're
modeling the wrong behavior. So I have to ask you, Ashlynd,
you you played for in college? You played for the
winning this coach soccer history, Anton Doorance.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Go heels, go heels.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
I think a lot of people would would look at
that record and say, well, you could pull that off
just by you know, being a great recruiter, and then
you end up attracting a bunch of stars, and then
year after year everybody wants to play for the greatest
coach and the greatest team. I know it was more
than that. What did you learn from Anson about culture
building and about creating a team that was more than
(32:13):
the sum of its parts.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
It was very humbling to learn from him. It was.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
He had a unique gift to see people.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
In terms of potential, and.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
He would always say potential means shit if you're not
willing to do the work to get yourself where you imagine,
which I don't know how many people know this, but
we were ranked every single day in practice. We had
twenty three day every single day. Everything was about stats.
(32:58):
Everything was about numbers, and you would walk up to
training and there was a bulletin and you were ranked
in everything passing and moving, shooting, how many goals you
gave up, how many turnovers I mean everything, speed, how
many high level sprints you can hit, what's your mock speed?
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I mean, from top to bottom.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
But you were also ranked on how you show up,
what your character looks like, where you give her, where
you were, where you a taker.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
So there was core values he made us.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Every class had meetings every week, and he would make
you read books and you would talk about how you
were going to be a person who shows up, which
is just as important as the player. So we had
these core values and we read books like Man Searches
(33:58):
for Meaning and all of these great things that gave
us perspective about just being a good athlete wasn't enough.
We wouldn't contribute to our society, to our small groups
if we were assholes. That's what he used to always say,
I mean, and he really it's humbling, Adam, to sit
(34:22):
on a paper, to get a paper and say this
is what people think of you outside.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Of sport, and its powerful.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
It's so powerful, and everyone's so scared to do it
because how they will internalize it. For me, I wanted
people don't care how much you know until they know
how much you care.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
These things were.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Burned in my memory of the core values we would
have to live by, and when we would warm up,
we would have to recite them, and we were graded
on it virtually, and it changed my whole dynamic of
my life.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
What I think is brilliant about that is, first of all,
the idea that you're going to be evaluated not only
on your confidence but also on your character. That's huge
because then you have to think about how do I
show up, how do I treat other people?
Speaker 4 (35:13):
What's my value added here?
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Secondly, I think what's also really powerful is I work
with so many leaders who are afraid to give feedback
that often because they think they're going to stress everyone out.
I found the exact opposite that if you know you're
going to be assessed every day, it starts to become
just a daily routine as opposed to the quarterly performance
review that is a tremendous amount of pressure. And so
(35:37):
the idea that we're going to do this daily means
that my behavior every day matters, and I have an
opportunity to earn a better reputation and to demonstrate my
character differently tomorrow than I did today. That is, I
means such a clear way of motivating people to think
about their growth on a day to day basis. If
it were up to me, I would rate, not rank.
(36:00):
There's there's a lot of evidence that forced ranking rankings
can can lead people to compete with the very people
they're supposed to collaborate with. And so to say, hey,
we're a team, but I'm gonna pit you against each other.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
I don't love that.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, And this is I think where it goes full circle. Adam, Like,
I really think that when I talk about the unlearning
or the rethinking, I carry competition into everything and it's
toxic and I have to not lose my identity that
makes me great. But also not this competitive fire that
(36:38):
when I walk into the room, everyone's like, this is
this is she takes too much? She put it makes
me uncomfortable, this winning competitive fire mentality. It's it's not
good for me, and that as a leader, if I'm
not getting the best out of everyone, I'm failing. So
(36:59):
that part of competition and that part of ranking I
have to leave at the door.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
I think that makes a ton of sense. You're making
me rethink something actually, which is maybe you don't have
to bring the best out in everyone. Maybe maybe the
goal is a little bit more modest, which is to
say I want to make everyone better.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That part it's powerful, right, And this is what There's
something that you said and I wrote this down because
it's so true, and I swear I'm going to bring
this in every meeting. It said, the easiest way to
get people to tell you the truth is to prove
to them that you can handle the truth. That is
(37:50):
so powerful, because I do think in sports we have
massive egos, we have the ability to deflect, We are
coachable when we want to be. But it's this we
can shell out all the oh you got to be better,
you got to do this, you got to do that,
But can you handle someone coming after you that way?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
It's really interesting.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
It's I can't stress enough how important it is. Constantinos
KOUTI first and I were studying this around when you
and I met, and we found that so many leaders
asked for feedback, but people didn't know whether they were
genuine about wanting it, and they often found like you
didn't really mean it.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
You said you wanted.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
To hear it, but then you completely shut down my idea,
or you know, you just ignored it because you were
either threatened by it or you were too busy to
pay attention. And we found that it's often helpful instead
of actually just asking for feedback, to give yourself feedback
out loud, and that way you're not just claiming you're open,
you're actually proving that you can handle the truth. Yeah,
(38:55):
by saying like, here are the notes I've been given
last week, Here's the three sixty review that I got
about what I need to improve at. Here's what my
team has told me I should be working on. Here
are my own weaknesses and development goals. And guess what,
When you do that, people are much more aware of
your sincere commitment to listening and trying to put their
(39:17):
suggestions into action.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
And I think that.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Sometimes I hear leaders when I talk about this. Leaders
will come back and say, but I don't want everyone
to know what I'm bad at, And I'm like.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
They already know. Yeah, you can't hide it from them.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
The people on your team, they already know what you
stuck at, And so you might as well get credit
for having the self awareness to recognize and the humility
and integrity to admit it and start working on it.
And I think that is the best way to keep
getting better.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Tell me when you've when you will the last time
you got it wrong.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I just want to know.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I want to I want to know the last time
you really got it wrong? And how how do you
show up? Like how do you acknowledge it?
Speaker 3 (40:08):
This this actually happened over the weekend. I was I
was getting I was getting feedback from a co author
on a project who who said to me, you know,
I think that you're the details are probably boring, but
who basically said, I think you're you're approaching this argument
(40:29):
wrong and it would be much clearer if we restructured
it this way. And I started fighting back and I
said no, no, no, no, Like, here's the reason I did
it the way I did it. And my my co
author said to me, it's nice to meet your logic
fully again, and I was like, oh, guilty is charge?
(40:51):
Here we go, like I'm a big believer in Carl
Wike's mantra argue like you're right, listen like you're wrong.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
But the danger for me is I can get so
passionate about an argument that when people hear me argue
like I'm right, they don't realize that I'm willing to
listen like I'm wrong. And so when I got the
logical Lae feedback again, I had to say, Okay, wait
a minute, let's shift gears here, tell me again what
I'm missing, and I'm going to repeat the point back
(41:21):
to you, and then we're going to try it your way.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
And we did and it was better.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
And then I did what I often do when I
get something wrong, is I go into happy Gilmore mode,
and I was like, you were right, I was wrong.
You're smart, I'm stupid, You're good looking, I'm not attractive.
And that's my maha kopa, Oh my goodness. It's like
(41:48):
it's good to hear you're human too.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
I think that validates a lot of the struggle for me.
But I do I say this because I asked this
question and so much about this podcast of you know,
the reason why it's name Wide Open is because we
are so much more than what we do. So I
have this question for you, and I ask everyone on
(42:13):
this show, what moment in your life really split you
wide open, that really changed the landscape of everything your life?
How you show up. It can be with work, it
can be outside of work. But like, what is that
moment most people don't know about you that really shook
(42:33):
you to your core, that made you really change and
think about vulnerability and how you show up and.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Just like who Adam is.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
I will never forget being in middle school and being
on the phone with my best friend Con and we
got into a stupid argument about a movie quote. I
think it was from robinhood Men Into but I'm not
one hundred percent sure. And we both seen the movie
multiple times. We were both sure we were right, and
(43:07):
we must have argued for ten or twelve or fifteen
minutes and then hung up to go and check to
check the movie. And we got back on the phone
and I wouldn't admit I was wrong, and I tried
to twist the argument to say no, it was actually
(43:29):
like I was paraphrasing, and here's.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Like, you know, here's what I was trying to convey.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
And Con said to me, shut up at him, you
know what, this is ridiculous. I won't talk to you
until you admit you were wrong, and he hung up
the phone. And we lived in the same neighborhood. We
rode the bus to school together. We would ride our
bikes to each other's houses, like on the weekends. We
(43:55):
like we talked every day, and we went several days
without speaking because I couldn't bring myself to admit I
was wrong and talk about splitting me wide open. I
woke up one morning, I was like, what is wrong
with me? Why is it so hard for me to
admit that I was wrong? And I realized that my
identity was all wrapped up in being smart, and being
(44:18):
smart was all about getting the right answer, but it
was coming at the expense of my most important relationship
at the time. And I realized it was more important
to me to get it right than to be right,
and that I never wanted my desire to feel like
(44:40):
I was right. I never wanted that to stand in
the way of maintaining a meaningful relationship. And that was
that was transformative for me.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Wow, that's powerful, Adam. You You are incredible. You're incredible human,
and you're so humble and you're so kind, and we're
all so lucky to know you. To be able to
read your work, to be able to hear your podcasts,
to really experience and unpack the questions you have us
(45:17):
ask ourselves, and I'm grateful for it. So thank you
for taking the time today to come on to Wide Open.
Thank you for being vulnerable and helping me unpack my
transition and identity.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
Well.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I appreciate your appreciation, and I've you know, for a
long time now. I've admired your both your intensity and
your equanimity as an athlete. And I'm so glad that
Wide Opened is giving people outside of soccer a chance
to learn from you and also to hear you grappling
(45:55):
with the things we all struggle with in real time.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
I think that's a gift. So thank you for having.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I appreciate it, and we will hopefully see you soon.
Wide Open with Ashlin Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
You can find us on the.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronov, and Lucy Jones.
Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan
(46:33):
and Emily Rudder and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris,
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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