The Moment Coco Rocha Chose to Speak Up

On this episode of Wide Open, Ashlyn Harris sits down with trailblazing model Coco Rocha. Coco opens up about carving out a distinct voice in an industry that often demands conformity, and how she’s stayed grounded by sticking to her values. They also talk about body image, boundaries, the challenges of pregnancy, and joys of motherhood. It’s a candid look at reinvention, resilience, and leading with intention.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome back to another episode of Wide Open with Ashland Harris.
I'm so excited today to introduce our guests. Coco Rocha,
Welcome to the show. Thank you, beautiful talented supermodel as
we all know, but there's so much more to you
besides what you do. You're a co founder of you
in your own model agency, Nomad, and you have your

(00:30):
own modeling.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Camp correct that I.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Really can't wait to talk to you about because I
can I sign up.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yes, of course I have to stop calling it model camp.
It started off models, but really it is kind of
like life coaching, life coaching, and I really love it watching.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Your videos in the way you move. Do you take
a bad photo?

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Is my friend? I mean, like, I don't believe in
a bad.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Photo, clearly not. I've never seen a bad photo of you.
That must be a gift.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
There you go. No, I mean, I come from dance background,
and so to me, it is a performance. I never
thought this was something I was going to do, so
I just kind of challenge the creative space of movement
and dance, and I think of it as a stage.
So I don't take it as seriously, I guess as
some people might think. Models do. We're not living some
Zoolander experience. So it's just it's fun. And if someone

(01:24):
picks a photo I don't like it, well I guess
they thought we express something I don't see. And I
always say I see the vision, meaning I might not
necessarily love it, but I get I understand it enough.
And to that point I started to have more and
more confidence. And that's really it. It's like, do I
agree that every photo looks good? No? But do I
have the confidence to just go ahead and just take it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
What I love so much about what you just said,
is it.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
I don't take it so seriously because I say that
all the time and people are like, oh my god,
the pressure of this and that, and I'm like, I'm
not cureing cancer.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
No, I feel no pressure.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
It's exactly what I say.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
I'm a performer. Yeah, I'm out here having fun. But
I'm curious. I want to know who Cocoa was as
a young girl from Yeah, you're from Canada. You know
you have this incredible background. So I've danced my.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Dance a dancer, but not any kind. I was an
Irish dancer, so you know, I was like cool kids,
go clearly, no, about when I was when river Dance
came out, I started it, and then years later I
was scouted at a dance competition. So there was this
model scout just there. At first I thought he was

(02:37):
a predator because I'm fourteen, yes, and I have no
understanding of fashion. I mean, we don't have Google Search
at this point. We just have like wind up Internet.
So I'm not younger than me.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Be easy, yeah, I mean like we.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Are just two years girl. But it was it was
not an era where I could like search what is
a model? So for this individual to come up to me,
I just thought strange. But just so we all get
a little background. His daughter danced tens, why he was okay,
and he kept approaching my mom and me a few

(03:12):
dance competitions in and I just kept laughing, thinking like,
out of all of us, out of all these girls,
this tall, dangly human is the one that you keep
saying should model. So my mom I remember saying, fine,
well we'll try it out, just like a little session.
And I have those photos. I look at them, going

(03:33):
who saw anything? Still? But lo and behold those were
the photos that I came to New York and no
one wanted me, No one wanted. I got signed, but
no one else wanted me.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Find that very quarantine.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
She was just a tall like unaware of And there
was this very famous photographer named Stephen Mazel. If no,
if some people not understand the industry, he is what
we call the model maker. He really helped and founding
sort of the supermodel era. And I had a casting
request if I were to I had returned back to Canada,

(04:08):
and they said, if I ever come back to America,
I'll I get to meet this individual. But again me
being me, being like okay, well cool, don't know what
that means. But funny enough, I wasn't allowed to ever
return back to America because I got a stamp saying
like you're no longer allowed to come here, because they
had realized I had crossed the border maybe too many times,

(04:29):
and young me, just listening to the adults in the room,
I did what I was told. So I was actually
sent off to Asia for many months to work on
my book. What we wait? Wait?

Speaker 2 (04:40):
How old?

Speaker 3 (04:40):
I was fifteen, just turned and my mom. I love
my mom, she's taking care of my kids right now. However,
she sent me. She came with me to Taypei, and
she was like, looks good, I'm out. And for two
months I stayed in Taipei. I worked every day. I
would do double booking, so I'd work in the morning
and I would work in the e and then I
would get my Sundays off.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
I made money, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
But I also learned hard work. I've never experienced work
like that, because it was just like, you're here only
two months, We're going to work as much of these
hours as humanly possible. So when I returned, I was
then sent to Singapore and that is where I learned
the art of like beautiful imagery. So I learned work,
and now I learned imagery. And finally I was allowed

(05:26):
to come back to America with the write papers and
I got to have that meeting with Steven okay, and
it wasn't a meeting. I was immediately going to shoot
Italian Vogue in LA with all these other top models.
But again, knowing nothing, I just went. But my background
now was I was a catalog model, and the way
we move is just these very quick movements.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Okay, So it's just click click, click, clicklick.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
If you've seen on YouTube, it's like there's this famous
Asian model that like and they can just move so fast.
And Stephen saw that that me was like, Okay, we're
gonna hone in on this weird thing that you're doing,
but I'm gonna help you with it. And so after
my six months exclusive with him, I was allowed to

(06:10):
work with the rest of the world. And because they
had in their mind this is a Stephen model, they
see that I work this certain new way of movement.
I've never been told from that day like I should
not pose this way. Of course you don't like my style,
but they can't hold it against me that it is different,
and they usually bring it to Stephen.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
And the only way I can connect and correlate is
playing a sport. So many people always suggest doing dance
because of the fluid movement, and you become so in
touch and in tune with your body and how it
moves and how it looks and all these different angles,

(06:52):
which I assume made you such a standout at such
an early age, because usually I'm one of them.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
I didn't dance.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
I just started like dancing after I retired because I
wanted something to do. But you always talk about touching
your body is such a crutch, like try to pose
just freely and moving and don't even like do the
hand on the hip or touch this hand in the pocket.
I am a hand on the pocket kind of girl
on the red carpet. I need to go to your

(07:24):
coaching because I'm like, I get so uncomfortable for some
reason just on the red carpet. Yeah, you can shoot
me all day in production and I have no issue,
but I'm like, what do I do? I'm in a suit.
This looks awkward, like do I oh, do I put it?

Speaker 3 (07:40):
I get it? I don't know what to do. For years,
red carpet it was funny. I was already known for
the model that can move, but then on red carpet,
I was like I thought there was rules, like this
is how we had to portare ourselves. But over time
I think it was probably Can Film Festival, like the
Red carpet is a beast, that one's scary, and I
was like, you're already known for the one that moves,
to just go go ahead and move and no joke.

(08:01):
Since then, like every time I go in the red carpet,
it's it's you know, the team of photographers for sure,
but they just like Coco's coming. Yeah, and then I'm like,
I feel like Mickey Mouse, do your thing. So I
get it because there's a strange like we have to
come off eloquent, like you know how in your speech
you you have to speak a certain way in your interviews. Yeah,

(08:23):
it's also our movement and our body movement and red carpets.
We feel like we have to hit these poses. So anyways,
I realize have fun. Clearly we're all trying to do
something here to business. We're trying to create some photos,
and these photographers deserve something fun. And from that I realized, like,
go for it, so hand in pocket or not in pocket?

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Now getting my wheels turning, I'm like, can you imagine
if I started hitting, all.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
These people will be talking.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
They would be those photographers that they do.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
They would be like thank you. Well.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Also, there's some screaming this way this night I turn
this way.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yes, yes, I'm like, can everyone bring it down the
little bit now, because you're stressful, like when you're literally
like that's what I love so much about editorial, which
clearly nowhere near what you've done, but like it is
so calm, which people don't realize. It's so safe, Like,

(09:18):
especially when you have the rate right photographers, they just
they make it so calm and cool where you really
can just like bring your best self to the table
and do what you do best. And I can imagine
not all photographers are like that.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, there's definitely some egos they get involved. I always
just at camp when I'm training the models, they will
express stories and tell us things about like what they
are dealing with, and it is so frustrating that one
of the things is they just don't feel safe on
their photoshoots. And that's the place that you should. I mean,
if I'm going into a room full of people that
are are creative and love what they do, no one

(09:57):
should make me feel overwhelmed or scared or unsafe. So yeah,
when I work the people I'm surrounded by, I'm like,
you're the best. You're so good at makeup, hair and nails, photography, lighting,
the lighting guy. Oh, and everyone deserves like credit. But
no one should feel uncomfortable in a room. No, And
it's sad to say that there are still a lot

(10:18):
of models that find themselves in a room that they
shouldn't be in based off of just assuming because it's
a modeling job that it's all going to be okay.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, and you you know, you grew up in the
industry and you grew up and it's so young in
the early two thousands, and it was a completely different
landscape because there wasn't social media there.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
There wasn't this huge digital you know, need for.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Constant content like now. It's just like people want content,
content content. I was a little girl, I wanted magazines, magazines, magazines.
I wanted to flip throughom flip flip, flip, flip flip,
like I needed to touch it.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
There was something so unique and special about thou.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
There's so much work that goes into what you do
to bring these campaigns, these the wardrobe, the fashion to life,
like you know, you have all these creators and directors
and lighting and photographers, but it's really up to you
to bring the vision alive to us who are consuming it.

(11:22):
And I don't think models get enough credit for it,
Like that's a lot of responsibility.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
I'm usually the opposite with the girls. Sometimes that's the
you know, they they come with a bit too much
belief that it's all on them, Like they might come
thinking like, well, my ideas and what I believe in
and what I want should be the first and foremost.
And I remind them like you are just a canvas.

(11:49):
Like in the end, they can either paint Picasso on
you or then the Mona Lisa. But it is up
to them to decide which direction we're going. The only
thing we get to to bring forward is our morals
and values. If I don't feel okay, I'm going to
speak up. But other than that, I got to take
this piece of art that they've created and sell it

(12:09):
to the world or just to leave in a museum
for the people to see. And I think this day
and age, what's different from our day and age was
that they assume they're playing themselves, that they get to
dictate what's going on, and they're not the art directors.
We are not. And I say they us as models
are not the art directors. We are not the clients.
We come here with the job and responsibility of taking

(12:31):
all their ideas and creating this hopefully beautiful image. And
so I always remind people that our sole purpose is
just to make people feel something. And if someone looks
at my images and goes, eh, and like we did it,
we did something. Because at this day and age, like
you said, it's not flip through a magazine and think
about it. It swipes, swipes, swipe, swipe, and then they're

(12:54):
not thinking about it.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
When you go back to your younger self between fifteen
and probably twenty three, because you know, at.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Eighteen, you were already in vogue.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, you know, you're already with the most incredible brands
out there. I mean everyone wanted you so compared to
where you're at now teaching these new models, what do
you think about that early beginning of your model career

(13:24):
where it was so sexualized. It was so about skinny, skinny, skinny,
one size, that's it.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
You like, you have to look this way, you have
to be tall, you have to like there was so much.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Negativity when it came to different types of body types.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yet we all uniquely are so different.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
And I'm curious when you think back to your younger self,
how has the industry changed and how did you find
your voice to say, I'm not doing that.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
I'm not selling my soul to the devil.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
That is absolutely not what I'm about and I'm not
going to compromise who I am, what I'm about, how
I show up to sexualize something that doesn't feel true
to me.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
So when I started, I heard plenty full of people
saying that if you want this, you'll say yes to
whatever was the yes, and I didn't really understand that
quite at that time. I just thought, well, yeah, I
mean like, I'll do whatever I'm supposed to do because
I'm the kid, you're the adult, so duh. But I

(14:33):
remember the first scenarios where like, okay, take your top off.
I'm like, oh, this is what yes meant. They meant
I will remove clothing that I felt uncomfortable to do.
And when someone had said to me, if you want this,
you'll do whatever, I remember just saying did I say
I wanted this? It was more of an opportunity. It
was just kind of a summer thing, I thought at

(14:54):
one point. Then it was that one time in Asia,
and then the second time in Asia. It was never
like this is it you need this or else? So
to me, there wasn't the pressure of I have to
have this. But then once it started to be successful,
they switched it to we aren't you just so lucky?
So do not ruin this because you you know, you've

(15:16):
been given an opportunity and you're gonna waste it based
off of what your morals and values. And yes, I
grew up in a family where morals and values mattered.
Whatever was mine were there mine, and I'm allowed to
have that. And I was now in an industry where
I was looked as like ridiculous, but it was some
very powerful people, including Steven Misel no joke. I remember

(15:39):
that first shoot someone said the stylist said I was seventeen,
and he said, okay, you're going to take your top up.
This was the stylus, but they didn't ask how old
I was either, so nothing against them, but it was
just more like, okay, here we go, shoot time. And
I was mortified because I remember everyone saying if Steven says,
you do, and little me going, I really don't want this.

(16:00):
But at the same time, I've been told this is
not an opportunity everyone gets. So I just remember being
my robe and Stephen before this shot was coming, he
said how old are you? When I was like seventeen,
and he screamed at the room. He was like, how
dare you all? She's underage? What do you think you're doing?
And I thought, oh my goodness, if this powerful man cares,

(16:20):
don't anyone else beneath him. I don't care if I
displease him, like he showed me that my age mattered,
but also just like he could tell I was uncomfortable.
And so from that point on I tried really hard
to speak up for myself. Now are there photos? I'm like, eugh, yeah.
But then there was at a certain point where she

(16:42):
needed someone to speak to the CFDA as a model
at the time and say like, what's happening backstage? What
do we need to work on now? Don't forget this
is the time where I was considered the plus size model.
What I was the range of what was bigger at
the time, doping call a plus size model because that
word didn't exist. It was just the fat model. And

(17:06):
not that she came with that intention. She just knew
I was already dealing with a lot. So she was like, well,
you'll go and talk to all the designers in America.
So in a room. This wasn't a press conference thing.
It was just me standing there saying this is what's
going on with me, and like let's all do better.
And it was things like I spoke about that I
was on diretic pills at the time, that I had

(17:27):
lost my period for a year already at that point
that people in that room had got me to this point,
And why can't you just change your double zero standard
to a two or a zero at least. And because
she gave me that platform, every time I would go
to fittings or something, she would be you know, around
I don't know why I always around it my fin

(17:48):
and she would remind me, be like, remember you remember
what you stand for. Remember what you were talking about now? Yes,
when you spoke to her about like we need range,
this was a time where all you saw was a
white model age fourteen five ten. Most of us had
an Eastern European descendant. They called it the whitewashing of era.
There was like a black modeled tokenism where you'd see

(18:11):
one in a range of seventy in the in a show.
So it was a backwards and again to remind you,
I was only maybe fifteen pounds heavier than I am
now and I was considered the girl that was being
used as a token for being bigger.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
And how did that like hearing that?

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Because I like, I think back too to the time
when we were growing up and like diet pills were
such a big thing and they like had these caffeinated
diet pills that were uppers, and everyone was I mean,
you can go to seven.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
You could go to a gas station and get it.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
What crazy measures because of the pressure that these people
put on you at such a young age, like at fifteen, seventeen, eighteen,
Like you don't even know yourself right, so like how
can you even and stand up for the things you
think are right or wrong? Like you're still learning in
real time what that means. And now you're professional and

(19:08):
now everyone wants you like how did that affect how
you felt about yourself and your body.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
I think what's very lucky for me is that I
started off with no and people like this can't be wrong.
I'm like, I was a dancer through and through, Like
all I did was train and then that was it.
So I wasn't looking at my body being like I
don't like this. It was just dance. Like I had
to feed the body. I needed to work the body,
and I was it so to come into the industry
and then people like you're amazing. I'm like thanks, okay,

(19:37):
And then actually, or not quite quickly, I was like,
oh what do you mean? Like now I started to
be like, oh, I see what you see. But I
don't think a young teenager now entering in with such
self aware could have dealt well. They still do deal
with it, but it was such a different, strange thing
because now we can, like we can go on social

(19:58):
media and talk about whatever some just said to us.
We can we can blast the world and tell them.
Then there was no way for me to communicate like
hey that backstage that was creepy and that just happened
to me over here. So it was all kept and
bottled in. We didn't even talk as models. I only
one or two of my friends. I remember just sobbing
and we were just cry about like how people were

(20:21):
treating us. But then you just put it back in
and then you smile the rest of the day and
it's now affecting us. I talked to these models we're
now doing like a show together. I'm like, wow, did
you just get triggered by seeing that person? And like
didn't you just feel that when that just happened. So
it's not fixed. Clearly we were broken then, but we
didn't realize it much. We just dealt with it because

(20:44):
that's how society works.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Well, yeah, because we normalized women would shut up and
just do their job and they would suffer in silence,
and we didn't want to take up too much space.
We had to feel grateful for every opportune.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
I went through it, you know, with terrible standards in soccer.
It was always, well, be grateful you have this platform,
be grateful you're making money, be grateful you have access
to these things. And it's like, oh, but actually you're
treating me like shit, and this is like very problematic.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
And I try to remind models, like, personally, I don't
shoot lingerie, so clearly I'm not going to get a
Victoria's Secret campaign, but my besties did and do I
you know, look at them and go ugh no, I'm
like proud that you could get something that you feel
comfortable doing as long as you've always felt comfortable doing it.
And then people go, oh, so you don't need to

(21:36):
want the Victoria's Secret campaign or the whatever, like, you
can also have other things like it's not the epitome.
I'm like, well, what is it that speaks to you
and whatever that is, then find those projects and then
let someone else have that platform because they're gonna love it.
I think nowadays, yes, we are outspoken. We talk about it,
but it still shocks me at model camp. How many

(21:58):
models say to me, but do I have to whatever
the thing is, I'm like, no, I told you.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
And that's interesting, right, because so much like we grew
up idolizing Victoria's Secret Angels like that was I mean,
I remember everyone would turn it on TV and there
would always be performances and it was just.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Like such a vibe.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
And you're right, not everyone feels comfortable walking that runway
with lingerie or nothing on barely at all.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Did they come knocking at your door?

Speaker 3 (22:36):
Ah? I did have a few projects with them, Yeah,
but of course they knew me, and like Coca doesn't
do lingerie, so what do we do? So I did
pajamas and I remembered them just we. I worked with
one of my besties Bahati Prince Lou and she is
a or it wasn't is an angel and they tried
to Paris together. It's just so funny. Your bestie doesn't

(22:58):
mean that you can shoot well together. She was just
the girl that was the VS girl and I and
people think when I say this that I I'm not
secure as myself. I'm super secure, So it's okay, but
I'm the girl that you put five hours of hair
and makeup. I transform. But the VS models I always
joke that, like you put some spit in your hand
and you rub it on a face ANDVA they're like great.

(23:18):
So I remember the shoot and they were like this
two things don't go together. And I would just remember
being like, sometimes it's just not for you, like me
selling pajamas and they were like, what do we do
with her? I remember the photo is me jumping over
a street cone because they were like, what does go go? No?
So I was just like all happy and bubbly, and

(23:39):
Bahati was all like giving her her stuff. And it
just made me realize that we can't force something even
though it's not something for me. So yes, I love Dearly,
the girls that work with them and the team that
they're around. It just never fit because one they don't
do lingerie, but the other parts components to it. It
didn't work either, So I bow out. I let let

(24:02):
other people do it. But yeah, I'm the model that
you bring in to literally transform. Like if you have
an idea, you want to bleach my eyebrows, you want
to make me look alien, you want to put me
on mars. I'm all for it. I'm the one that
you bring in. But usually the one the way you're like,
no makeup, your hair's beachy, and you just walk on
the beach. Probably not your girl. I'm I'm not it.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
I highly doubt that, but I'm laughing because you're just like, listen,
I've been in this for a long time. I know
what I'm good at, I know what I'm not, but
like that ain't.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
Evering it just for some reason, it just like doesn't
click with everyone. I'm the one that they give me
the characters that they're like, is she evil? Is she weird?
Is she sexy? Who knows?

Speaker 1 (24:46):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
We'll be right back.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
People don't realize how technical it is, Like your job
is so technical.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
I agree, But it is funny how like someone asked
questions like how do you take a good picture? And
I'm like, well, you just stand there in.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Confide either you kind of either have to have it
or you don't.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
Right. I just think again, like weirdly, how we understand lighting,
we understand concept, we understand what the video or the
camera is getting and not getting. But then again, it's
just it's all a team effort.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Like, it's just it's not as easy as people think.
And all of the lighting you're looking into all day.
My head, I'm like, oh my god, it's gonna explode.
Like I can't keep doing this my mouth, my face,
my body.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
I'm like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
I'm trying to like flex and like suck in and
like hit that angle. And I'm like, what the I
just you're just over here dancing and free and beautiful,
and I'm like, Dan, damn, that's what it's.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
Supposed to be. Like thanks. Yeah, it's an odd Yeah,
it's an odd thing. Again, it's like a performance in
the The goal for me is everyone in the room,
and sometimes the production can have I remember I had
a team full of two hundred and fifty people. What
were they all doing? I'm not sure, but I wanted
one to at the end of that, just like applaud.

(26:20):
I want them to cry. I want something or they're
just like I've never experienced that before. That was the
coolest thing. Uh, And you know that's why you are you.
That is always the goal. So some models, some people,
even celebrities, I always say to them, what is the
main goal out of your photo shoot. And they'll say,
like the photo, the photo needs to look really good,
and I'm like, well, it's too late at that point,
Like the goal should have been the room. Think of

(26:43):
this as a Broadway performance. And what did you get
from the room. Were they losing their mind at the
end or were they like, let's go home at the
end of it. And if they felt so good, the
photo will be whatever it is. But they chose that
because that was the one that spoke to them so much.
And then that doesn't matter to you because you did
so well. So I compete. I'm sure you were very

(27:05):
and still are very competitive to yourself. Yes, I dancers sports.
I'm super competitive for myself, so I won't compete with
my fellow model, but I will compete to myself. And
if I thought my performance on a shoot with it,
then next time it will be better. And if it
was better, oh it has to be even better so
that I don't lose two people just tell me I'm amazing,

(27:26):
because I have a hard time hearing all the time
on a shoot, Oh, you're so good, and I'm like,
I don't know if that's even real anymore. And you
were saying, like, you're starting to dance to do something different.
Maybe you tell me, but in your world of sports,
did you ever feel like you got to a point
where you're like, I'm good and people tell me over
and over and over and over I'm good, and you're like, okay,

(27:47):
I am, But like I'm also, like your podcast, I'm
also good at other stuff. Yeah. To me, I'm at
that point in my career where, if I hear one
more time, I'm very good at modeling. I need to
prove to myself I'm good at something else because it
has now gotten to a point where I don't know
if it's just they think a placebo effects.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, But what the difference for you, Cocoa is you
have like the air is so thin at the top.
And I say this often that you have to like
to stay at the top as long as you have
and to be so relevant in the space for as
I mean, I mean like two decades now, I don't
even know.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
That is not easy.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
But what you do really well is you continue to
raise the bar and you bring your personality you the
way you your brand. I mean, you're stomping down the
freaking runway. You're doing the Irish jig. Like it's so
beautiful to see you have a personality through your work,

(28:49):
and you don't see that much with models, Like you
just see them like their performers, their robots. They're doing
their job and they're done. But like you make it
so fun and like it doesn't feel like a chore.
It doesn't feel like you know someone is it like
you're a puppet or an animal in the zoo that
people are just staring at.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
It's like, I.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
Guess it feels like that. So sometimes you know, like
where you feel like they're just like dance, monkey dance
or do that mickey most thing that you do and
you're like, okay, but I also like don't have to
and it's like no, no, no, do that. But to just
segue somewhere here is where I just finished Couture season
a few few weeks ago, and that is in our industry,

(29:34):
It's like that's where the people with money come to
sit front row and they buy that one dress that
you're wearing. So I do a lot of coature stuff
because again I create a little performance. The person's like
that's amazing, I need that dress. And it's great to
be known as the model that can do kutu, but
this particular show this the client love them. They paid

(29:57):
me to do me do the cocoa thing, and don't
have to. I don't have to go out there and
do that thing. It's just I'm usually That's why i'm there,
and I expressed, is that what you're looking for? Do
you do? You want me to go down there and
do the whole coco shi bang? Yes? Please, please please?
And then also I was pulled aside by this casting
director and was like, don't you dare? And I was like, ca, boy,

(30:20):
what do you mean? And it was don't you dare
do the outdated thing that you do. It's pathetic. And
so I said again, as the client was still standing there,
I was like, do you want that? As you are
the one paying, not this individual, I was like, of course.
And this person screamed at me. Seconds before I went
out on the runway and I went back to fourteen
year old Coco. In the video you can see that

(30:42):
I went from one one of the I had two outfits.
One of the outfits you see me, I'm like in
the second you just see that. I I just lost it.
I couldn't do it. Anymore. And it was actually Lisa
Rena was sitting front row and gave me the biggest
smile and I was like, I'm gonna get it, get
out of your head. And it just at that moment,

(31:04):
I was like, I'm still not good enough for some
of these people in this industry. You've created some weird
puppet show. This isn't the real stuff, whereas most people go, oh, Coca,
that is so great. So I'm still dealing with years
of this, Like what people love about me is the
thing that a lot of people in the industry actually despise.

(31:25):
And I'm not saying the whole industry is one person,
but it is shocking that I had this moment again.
I'm like, fourteen year old Coco, You're still around. You
still have to deal with the same people that will
not accept you. They do not like that you're here
doing it your way. I cried for three days during
Couture Fashion Week. Like Lisa saw me at an event.

(31:48):
I was sobbing and she just knew like what I
had just dealt with, and it's again sob story. But
it was shocking that all of that tiny cocoa stuff
was just coming back and to say all the stuff
I have done to help this industry, a lot of
people hate it. In twenty thirteen, we changed a law
for underage models just to make sure that no one

(32:10):
had to deal with stories like mine where we were
not protected, We were in rooms that we should not
have been in, that we should have been paid, that
abuse should not have been happening. We changed that in
twenty thirteen, which has if you've noticed, to this day,
we are skewing older models. When I say older that
are of age or older we have We're uncomfortable seeing

(32:34):
a fourteen year old in clothes that should not be
on them thanks to that law. But yet there's still
people that find stuff like that that we try to
do better, like we were the problems, and so dealing
with that is something I realized I'm never not going
to deal with. That is my issue in this industry.
So when people say like wow, like you're loved, you're

(32:57):
praised to a point, and then there's this other No,
there's this dark side that does not They're like, you
have pass goo too many times.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
I also think you know you're in the public eye,
right and you're successful, and you're successful at bringing something
different to the table, and I think that bumps up
against people because they're envious. They want that freedom, they
want that freedom to show up exactly who they are
at work and bring joy to people, even though it's

(33:28):
not your typical standard of what is expected. I always said,
being a professional athlete is a twenty four hour job.
My body matters the way it looks, the way it optimized,
like it has to be at optimal peak performance at
all times, recovery, how much I sleep, if I have
bags under my eyes, like my energy level.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
That is exactly what you deal with as well.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
And I think for women in our industry, there's always
this big question mark around pregnancy. Will she come back
and look the same, Will she be the same, will
she move the same, Will she be as fast?

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Will she have stretch marks? Will you know her boobs
not be as perky? God, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
The list goes on, like women suffer so much from this.
I adopted my children because I was like, oh, I
can't risk that. I can't risk my livelihood and how
I make money and the potential of maybe not coming
back and being the same. I imagine you deal with the

(34:36):
same thing, and here you are. You've had three children,
and you're rocking it. You're smoking, and you're like showing
people like, you know what, I can do it all
and I can damn good doing it.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, what was it like growing up and making.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
The decision, because it must have been really scary to
do that.

Speaker 3 (34:57):
I don't think the first one. I actually did an
homework to know that that was a real thing, because
the moment I found out I was pregnant and they
were like safe to tell people. I told the world
and it was a whoops and I wouldn't say sorry,
And it wasn't a whoopsie in the sense that to
have a kid. It was more like the jobs just
stopped immediately the moment I mentioned it, because in their heads, well,

(35:20):
she's pregnant, so there's a bump, so there's we don't
do maternity. And I guess I didn't know that most celebrities,
and hence I now realized on like baby two and three,
is that usually people announce it and then they have
a baby right like they have secretly held this sort
of bump without anyone knowing. And it made total sense
because I wouldn't have lost so many opportunities because the

(35:43):
bump didn't show till like months seven eight, Like it
was very and they're all of a sudden a bump
and I didn't know. I even knew mom. I was
just excited to tell the world. But yeah, there was
all of a sudden this like cannot work with you. You
you just there's no way you have We're not in maternity.
I'm like, you don't see anything. Baby two prolonged it

(36:06):
a little, and then baby three was during COVID. But
I wouldn't. I would never say that. My worry was
the recovery. Here's my one thing when we were talking about,
you know, like knowing our bodies and all that. At
age eighteen, I retired modeling. In my head, I was done.
I had gone through so much, already been told from

(36:27):
the press that I was too fat for the runway.
I was on the cover of a newspaper here in
New York saying like this is the body of a
fat model.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
It was a lot of takeout.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
It was. It was a lot. And we didn't talk
about mental health back then, so I just held it
all and I was done. So when I had that
done moment and I said, forget it, screw you all.
I'm leaving. I did return. I was now dating a boy,
now my husband, and he made me feel amazing. I
never heard someone say like, You're gorgeous, and I'm like, wait, like,

(36:58):
of course I heard people say I'm gorgeous, but to
believe them or with it not having an undertone other meaning.
I was amazed and smitten at this human that I
was adorable and cute, and I was like, I'm never
going to do this anymore to my body. It meant
that I stopped working out. It's meant that I started
eating whatever I wanted. These these are not good things.

(37:20):
This is just how my rebellious moment was, and I
guess it kept going when I started to have babies.
I was not going to allow an industry to decide
and dictate that if I come back, I wasn't good
enough anymore, because I already did that for them, and
I was never successful. Every time I tried to fit
a dress, to work out a certain way, to eat

(37:42):
this certain whole thing, at the time, I was still
not good enough, and so this was not going to
happen this time around. I was going to do whatever
I wanted for this baby and for myself. But I
wasn't going to hear any of this, like that's you're
just not it right now. And I think again, probably
a very confident moment in my life where it just shifted.

(38:04):
But I did need that other person had nothing to
do with our industry to say, yeah, what are we
talking about? You're good And that was probably when we
talked about mental health talking to people. That was when
looking back was my moment I started talking to someone James,
explaining how I felt and to here his other perspective,
I was like, Wow, this is making way more sense

(38:25):
than what they're saying. So no, I really didn't deal
with that. But had I been like some of my
peers where they were like I need to go back.
I have that job. I have to do it now.
That was the other thing I had to decide when
I was returning, like, yeah, it's a business. My husband
is my manager. We work together, so if I don't work,
he don't work. So it was like, okay, so when

(38:49):
we're coming back, and it was roughly two months. I
gave myself two months and I returned back to work. However,
my form of work, I get to bring my kids wherever,
right like I bring them on sets, they sit and
watch photographers, they see the seamstresses create dresses. We get
to experiences as models motherhood if we so wish a

(39:12):
very different way than most moms in any other celebrities space.
You remember that this is the one area where women
are paid far more than men, and only one other
in the world. So it is we are.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
That's so true.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
It is considered a very valued space for a woman
to be a model. So she gets to dictate if
she brings her children, she's going to breastfeed, You're gonna
give her a break, she needs a nanny on set.
So all the things we all want and demand for
all these other spaces, models do already have that if
if you're at a certain.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Of course level level.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
But even so, I know many up and coming new
moms and models, I say, just speak up, just say
my baby needs to eat, and my baby's coming, and
most of the creative teams that they're worth supported saying yeah,
of course, we'd love for you to work and for
your baby to be okay, no wonder. So it's different.
So when I say, two months in, I was ready

(40:11):
excited to like this new life with a new baby
in this industry that I now curate who I like
to work with. It was going to be a very
special place.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
And by the way, your children are beautiful thing.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Not like I'm surprised your your husband's so handsome, and
clearly you're stunning.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
I mean these babies, they're cute. We like them.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
They I mean, I bet did you after having your
your children? Did you have like what was your I like,
how did you feel?

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Because your body goes through a.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Lot of changes, right, and and I don't know what
it's like. I did not give birth to my children,
so I'm curious because I am so connected with my body.
How like what was that feeling like to come back
into the industry to like, I mean women who give birth.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
I mean that is like going to war.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
I mean literally, I don't know how to sugarcoat it.
And then y'all have talk about short term memory. You're like, yeah,
one another, one another.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
You just went to battle with your own body, bless
But did you have a different Clearly you show up
differently as a parent. We all do.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
It's the most beautiful thing in the world. But how
did you feel within your skin, like with this new
body and this this you know, you you have these
beautiful kids. Did it change the way you saw yourself?

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Uh? Interestingly, no, I'd worried. When I had IONI I
was like, Okay, well, my body's gonna stay this size
and this is it and you know, gonna be a
different category and modeling is just as it is. And
then no joke, a few weeks in, body was exactly
as it was before without working out. This sounds like,
you know, I'm like, haha, this is me. When that

(41:59):
is it, It's g for sure. However, you know, the
sad part was I had new mobs. That was great.
I love that. I was so excited for those, But
four months into breastfeeding, I couldn't. I couldn't produce enough anymore,
like for for her amount that she needed, I couldn't
create more milk for her. And that was the one

(42:21):
first time where I was like, my body is not
showing up for me. And I did what I was
supposed to do. I listened to everyone that was like,
you gotta work harder here or here at the pressure
of creating milk. I never knew it was going to
be a thing, and it was like, what a bad mom.
There's one of my first but one of my first
posts of motherhood, I was showing I was in Hawaii

(42:44):
and I was giving I only a bottle. This just
came back in my memory, by the way, and I
was just saying, like, look this, this company can send
me even milk in Hawaii in the most obscure place.
Like I was trying to say, like, how cool is
this one company that it could do something like this.
The world destroyed me for having a bottle in her mouth,

(43:05):
not knowing I had already been like personally suffering that
I couldn't give her any more, and now I was
hearing it from tens of thousands. When I arrived at
my final destination, I was at a news anchor. The
first question was why do you choose a bottle over breastfeeding?
And I remember being like, well, my body sucks, Like
why can it? Because some moms can go two years,

(43:26):
three and on, and yet I'm I must it must
have been me. I messed up, and so baby too.
I tried harder a month four. It's not a dry up.
It's just I can't make more that the baby needs,
and my body like literally shrivels back to its size.
Like I in my head I'm not a doctor, but
in my head, I was like, they're taking all my nutrition,

(43:47):
like anything I had was now like yours. But I
couldn't give them more. And then baby four, I just knew.
I was like, at four months, that's going to be
your number. And I even like got ready, being like,
it's just it, and so I maybe even gave up
that four. I was like, I'm not able. But it
was shocking to hear people tell me it was my fault.

(44:08):
And that was probably the first time I felt like,
what's wrong with my body?

Speaker 1 (44:12):
Well, there's just so much shame and stigma of women
in general. And I'm curious because you know, your daughter
right has an Instagram account?

Speaker 2 (44:22):
They all do, Yeah, they all do.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
But do you worry because you are in the public
eye and with that comes a lot of hatred and
judgment and living up to this standard, ridiculous standard that
no one you know, we're not perfect humans.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
How do you protect specially your daughter?

Speaker 3 (44:49):
So yeah, so all my kids Ione, who's my oldest girl.
Then we have a boy either who's six, and Ili
who's four. All of them have Instagram, but none of them. No,
don't really have anything to do with it, except they'll
be like, can I see that Instagram account? So to clarify,
they're not like on it searching themselves. But the reason

(45:10):
that we started was the first time I took her out.
I was on a conference. I was not a conference.
I was on a panel, and it was like the
Clintons were there. I don't know why I was talking
and the Clintons were talking, but we had something to
talk about, and there was enough paparazzi for them. But
all of a sudden they saw, Oh, Coco is out
with her baby, and someone put a camera right in
her little bassinette and just went nuts. And we thought,

(45:35):
we don't know those Now they get to do whatever
they so wish with that, and he did. He said,
freedom of the press. I get to have these. And
it was such a strange sort of encounter so that
we thought, wow, don't we just take some photos. We
put it out there so that there's enough that no
one needs more photos, and not to say I'm some
Beyonce or you know, Britney Spears that I'm being hounded,

(45:57):
but it was interesting enough that we now we take
our photos when we go on our holiday, take one
or two it's all like we see the photo, we
put it to the world and like, look at us
having a great time together, and it's they kind of
leave us alone. No one's kind of like I need
a photo, I need to be It's just kind of like, oh, well,
we already have stuff of cocoa in the family, so
leave it alone. That was that. But when it comes

(46:20):
to like, how do I now navigate this industry that
is so obsessed with our outer appearance and for me
to now go tell my kids, yeah, but mommy doesn't
care about her out appearance. Mommy only cares about her
inner And they're like, yeah, but you're in an industry,
that multi billion dollar industry that it's all about. I
needed to figure out what's the the how do I

(46:43):
go down this path? And so at home, our rule
one is no one is allowed to talk about anyone's
how they look in a negative way. Find better descriptive
words than fat or ugly whatever that is. So even
the cat, they're like, the cat is looking fantastically and larger,
whatever the word is. Find something else because I can't

(47:07):
stand those words. Those are kind of like my trigger
words to hear, like a young Coco hearing you're ugly
and you're fat, you're not good enough. Don't want to
hear my kids saying stuff. So I would never talk
about my body in a negative way, even to myself.
I actually do not look at it and go eh,
like the only times I'm like, okay, those boobs that
were so great, they're kind of gone. But my kids

(47:29):
do not hear like mommy talking about her body in
a bad way. So that's a huge thing. My mom
and my mother in law come from the generation of
you did talk about your body in a bad way,
and they sort of do still. But they're learning too,
because they come over and they're like Grandma's looking a
little and then you can hear them thinking and they're like,
I can talk about this. I around like fantastic whatever.

(47:52):
She starts switching in and I'm like, good for you,
Like you're learning to stop talking about that for you,
but you know you're doing it for them. And when
it comes to their understanding of this industry, they know
that I'm in it to one to better. So they
come to model camp. They're always at model camp, and
at first, when they're very young, they're like, what is this?
And I say it's a talent show. I love it,

(48:14):
and we perform and we show off. But now I
only's at enagle. She just knows that I'm there to
boost everyone's confidence so that they can just proudly walk
into a room and sell whatever it is they're trying
to sell and be proud of it even if they
don't win. And she knows that now, So at nine,
we're already like she gets it, and does she probably

(48:37):
look at her body or something, I'm sure, but we're
so open in communication. She knows that, Like I will
never judge her for talking about herself, but I have
never caught her ever being like ugh. She proudly is like,
look amazing, I am so much. So then like bring
it down a notch. But I'd rather that I work
with seven year olds and younger who deal with with

(49:00):
bardy dysmorphia. And I'm like, what has happened that you
are at this point at seven? Though you can't be
happy with yourself. Ione's nine, and she kills it. She
thinks that everything's a runway, everything's a stage, and I
hope the other two can follow notice her success in
that that they have their own their home theater stage

(49:23):
where they get to proudly show off.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Well, I think we also have an important task ahead
and we're all doing it now in our different industries
and really leaning on each other because I know in sports,
by the age of fourteen one and every two, young
girls are dropping out due to body composition issues. That
is so problematic to me. And I can't even imagine,

(49:48):
you know what your industry goes through on how we
show the world of what beauty looks like. And we
have to be better and we have to do better.
And I always you know, one of my biggest rules
in my house is kindness is currency, and my four
year old can't always say it, so we say kindness
is contagious. But it is important how they show up

(50:11):
because how they see themselves. They can go show that
to their friend groups and like spread joy and love
and laughter instead of what the media is doing to
these young women who are just absolutely tormenting them, shaming them,
making everything look a certain way. And you know, it's
just we can't continue doing this to these young children

(50:34):
because they're so vulnerable.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
I do say to model campers, how like our generation
really messed you up, Like we were the ones that
just didn't speak up for ourselves. I thought I was,
but clearly not enough. And to then see like this
next generation Alpha come in and just like own it,
like IONI when I ask you, like, does that it

(50:56):
is it hard to do this? This? And this is?

Speaker 1 (50:58):
No?

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Not really, And I'm like we're how because you know,
sometimes I'm like, oh that was overwhelming and she's like, no,
that's that's an easy thing and this other thing is
my issue. But I maybe because I'm worried that the
children of Coco, who is so I don't know if
you know, people will say to me, goodie two shoe,

(51:18):
Just what a goodie two shoe you are? You've always
just been like trying to be so sweet. I would
hate that they would look to my kids and be like,
where can I find a flaw? And that's where I
get very nervous. So when we are out and about
when they come to model camp, I'm like, remember, like
this is mummy's work. But they're also looking if I
am actually speaking or I am doing as I say,

(51:42):
and I have to be able to lean on you,
hoping that you can prove to them. So I feel
kind of guilty because like they're going to make their
own mistakes. But at the same time, people are like,
but can you produce children the way you're saying you
can produce And that's why I always get a little like, oh,
you know, they shouldn't have to deal with this. But
at the same time, the iver got an award from

(52:05):
school and it was only a few little kids got
it in front of the whole school for kindness and
was just like he won because he was the nicest one.
Or Ione the teacher said to me, like, she's the
one you bring into the group that is having a
hard time and she'll get them back on track and
she will get them excited. So I've never cared about
as I do not care. Like fail pull, you won't

(52:27):
care because we'll learn it one day, you'll memorize it.
But those sort of attributes where people are like, I
can remember that kid in school that was so nice
to me, the kid that helped me, the kid that
never bullied me. That is the kid that I That's
the kid I want working at Model Cat. That's the
person I want working for me because textbooks, that's that's memorization.

(52:48):
But to be actually these thoughtful children, like that's all
I really care about and it's the same when it
goes to what I'm training to models. I don't care
what you look like. I really don't. I think we
can get a hair, makeup and a stylist could help
you in looking as whatever, but you as a person,
I can't really physically change that. And that's usually the
thing that everyone remembers.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
This is wide open, and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
We'll be right back. It is so.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Important to just really really dive into being present for
our children and making sure we're raising really good humans.
And with that, I always ask everyone on this show,
what was the moment in your life or in your
career that really split you wide open, that changed everything,

(53:51):
whether in your profession or in your personal life. What
was that moment and how did it define the rest
of your career or your personal life.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
This might sound super cliche, but it would have to
be the moment I decided to get married. I was
twenty one, okay, and we're still together fifteen years later.
But I had been a child model. Let's be real,
Although in the fashion industry and I was being treated

(54:25):
as an adult, I was a kid and I leaned
on all the adults in the room to tell me
exactly what's supposed to happen. True, but at a certain point, like,
if you're going to make me so adult, I should
just be an adult then. And there were certain points
when and I love my mom adorable. However, she could

(54:46):
not let go of the reins of taking control of
Cocoa and Coco the company in a way at eighteen nineteen,
now we're twenty. Now we're twenty one, but still treating
me like the kid that started at fourteen and everyone around,
because there wasn't like a graduation day where I was like, ah,
you're an adult, eighteen, off you go, move out of

(55:07):
the house. I was out, So no one really gave
me this like when from child to an adult, when
when were they going to say it's your return to
take the lead. So from the moment I pick a boyfriend,
I was my mom my agents, everyone were like, who's this?
Get them out? And it was not even as much

(55:28):
as people like to say, well, it's just you know,
they were concerned. It was more of a we're not
in control anymore. We don't have the control that you're
now trying to take so much of it away from us.
And now you're trying to share it with someone else.
That's how it felt to me, And it was very
much this moment of like, I'm not in control. I
don't have any mechanism to just say enough is enough.

(55:52):
I was always leaning on anyone else, and I think
the day I got married, my mom apologized at my wedding,
being like, I'm sorry for you know how I treated
James and how I treated this relationship, and moving forward,
we will move forward. But it was then where I
was like, well, now James is the head of my
She's a low, old fashioned he's the head of my family.

(56:14):
Now he's the one I will lean on. This is
the one that I will, you know, like come to
with my sorrows and my problems. It won't be agents,
it won't be Mom, It's going to be him. And
I think everyone that first two years of like learning
that Coco's she has grown up, maybe because she's literally married,

(56:36):
but it's not as it was. And from that point
we did everything together. We A year into my marriage,
I had a manager stealing from you, So James quickly
took that job. Yeah, and thinking we'll give it to
someone else. And he's been my manager for fourteen years
and everything is a business together. Everything we do is
a choice together. But it was that moment where I learned,

(56:58):
like that is all where my career stepped up all
of a sudden. We did things differently. That's when this
guy was like, hey, why do you have to take that?
Why do you have to not speak up? Why can't
you do these things? And I was like, wow, who
was this magician? Why are you so good at this?
That was a big part but also a learning curve
for me to just be like, you all have to stop.

(57:20):
I am no longer fourteen. And it wasn't even a
case of like you shouldn't get married. It was just like, ooh,
she's not leaning on us anymore. And that scared everyone,
and it scared me because they were telling me things
that I out of fear. They were just saying things
that I didn't want to hear. That was a big
time and it did, Like I said, it changed the
course of my career. I was the outspoken model. I

(57:42):
started to do things differently, and to this day, I'm
still known for like this moment in my career where
they're like, use social media and you start speaking out.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
It was that time I love that you know, you
have the camp, you have the agency, you have your
own brand.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Who's coco Outside? So do you have time for Cocoa outside?

Speaker 3 (58:01):
That's the question that when I was trying to explain
a little is like this is the thing I'm so
well known for. It's like, what else can I bring
to the tables? Sometimes is the thing I reflect about,
Like I loving mom's and I know people say, don't identify,
don't save it too, and I'm like, no, it is
the coolest, most special thing. Again, maybe because we started

(58:23):
so young and I don't know your relationship with your parents,
but like I wanted to just do things slightly different,
and I'm sure that's always the answer. And I love
this thing called mom. So when people are like, yeah,
but what else, I'm like no, Like if you said,
for the rest of your life, you have to pick
one thing and that's the only thing you get to do. Oh,
let me be a mom, just a mom twenty four

(58:46):
to seven all the time. Like I said, I brought
one of my daughters or here in town. We don't
live in the city, but I was like, I want
the train ride, I want to hang out with you.
So Grandma You're coming all the oway the city. You
guys do some fun stuff and we're going to hang
out again. My obsessionism, so to me, is family life
the only thing I care for. And maybe because I've
done so many fantastical things, I've lived this crazy life

(59:09):
that the simplest stuff that maybe people take as mundane
or just boring is the thing I'm like, That's what
I live for, is to have dinners with my kids,
to have my besties and the family we've created around
us too. Are the people that we work with literally
are also our besties. They take care of my kids,

(59:31):
they take my photos, they do my hair, but they
sit and do homework with one of the kids that
I love the community we've created that I get to
just spend time with them. So as cliche or boring,
that answer is this really is like my favorite thing
to do is just chill time with the people I
like to be around, and that is Coco. If you

(59:53):
can make me laugh, I love you.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
I say this as cliche as it is for me.
I've won a lot of titles in my life.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Mom is the top the coolest, coolest title I've ever
been given. And I also don't take it lightly, so
I couldn't I couldn't agree more. And I appreciate how
hard you have fought and advocated for a lot of
these women. So I'm curious because you, you know, you

(01:00:23):
do coach these young children and younger generation through a
really hard profession. And I'm curious what you would leave
with some of our viewers and listeners. What would be
one of the things that you could leave with us
to help someone maybe a young girl or however you

(01:00:45):
identify struggling with who they are and what they look like.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
I think the one thing is to focus less about
the physical and sort of like I remember were saying,
what's the take away on a shoot? So what's a
takeaway when it comes to life experiences instead of so
much about this like how do I look? And I
tell the models, like I know that maybe your goal

(01:01:12):
is fame and fortune. To you, that might mean success,
and it might mean like they finally accept me, and
so I accept me, And I say it's I've never
met a famous, wealthy person that said, oh, thank goodness,
I'm wealthy. Yeah, and thank goodness, I'm famous. It rarely
is the goal, but I would love the goal for
these models to be a muse. If you could hear
someone say you were my muse, it means you've done

(01:01:34):
something so special, and it doesn't have to be a
model taking a photo. It can literally be what you
stand for that photo, maybe once in your career, what
you've done in your community. If someone says that to you,
to stop and reflect that moment because you have finally
done it your way, because there is no way that
you get to be amused. And this is one of

(01:01:55):
my favorite sayings is you have to stop being a
second rate version of someone else. And I what great
lady said that. I can't remember. It was like Eliza
Minelli or Elizabeth Taylor, but someone said it, and it's true.
There's too many of us copycats, too many people looking
at Instagram feeds and saying, the grass is greener if
only I look like her, if I had her skin,

(01:02:16):
her height, her weight, her age, I would be better off.
And it just never has worked that way. But the
muse is true. Muses they have their flaws and things
they don't really appreciate about themselves, but ultimately they are
proudly themselves. And I too speak to any model that
is up and coming. You start this career for yourself.
It's a very self absorbed sort of career. I want

(01:02:39):
to do it for me, but you start to recognize
that it's not just for you anymore. There will be
an individual that says, you have my skin color, you
have my body size, you speak for me now, and
do you do it great? Or are you failing at it?
And that right there will indicate what they will start
feeling about themselves just that moment. And so then again

(01:03:01):
the pressure is on, not that you have to love yourself,
but it is very important for these individuals to have
a mold, a model that is worthy to be called
a muse to them. And so my last thing to
most models, once they do start to have these careers
that they so thought they deserved and wanted, I remind

(01:03:21):
them that it's not a lifestyle. It is a business.
But the one thing that most models that are at
the top and doing very well is because this quote
again last one, I promise, but it's one that I
truly believe is true. It's nice to be important, but
it's important to be nice. And so many models come
to this time in their life where they think I'm

(01:03:44):
the most important the room, I'm the one that they
need and want and desire, and they lose all that
loveliness that they grew up with. And if they could
keep that up, if they could continue to be lovely
and of course I'm sure gorgeous. Wow, they're going to
have such a high success rate. And so anyone I've
ever met who's good at what they do, they are sweet.

(01:04:05):
They're the nicest people I've ever met, and they have
no ego because they just know I am good at
what I do. But you are also good at what
you do. And there's enough space at the tables that
we don't need to shove anyone out. And so again,
it's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
I love that. Thank you, Coco, and thank you for
coming on the show. Thank you for being wide open.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Thank you for the work that you give to this world,
because you really have changed the landscape. And I'm really
grateful for our time today.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
Thank you. I love also that you never looked at
those cards, just like you know what, you had it down.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Yeah, you're incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
Though.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
It's easy to have a conversation with someone who just
gets it, and you're one of those people.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
You're a unicorn. Thank Hobsolute, Coco, You're a unicorn. Thank
you for coming on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
Having Selena Goma's next guys, Selena.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Where are you now? I'm kidding? Thank you so much
until next time.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
Until next time, see you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
On another episode of Wide Open.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Wide Open with Ashland Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
You can find us on the iHeartRadio.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our
producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronov, and Lucy Jones.
Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan

(01:05:39):
and Emily Rudder and I'm your host Ashlan Harris