May 26, 2025 • 51 mins
“Consciousness explorer” Deepak Chopra and CEO of The Chopra Foundation, Poonacha Machaiah want to use technology for good. In this episode, the two discuss their new venture, DeepakChopra.ai, which distills all of Deepak’s wisdom onto a platform that people can interact with to seek personal and spiritual growth. The two tell Ashlyn why they decided to work with, not against, AI and Deepak takes us through his past to locate the moment when he knew his true calling was to service.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome back to another episode of Wide Open with Ashland Harris.
I'm so excited to have two incredible guests today who
I admire so greatly. I was just explaining the lightness
I feel even in their presence. Deepak Chopra, Welcome to
the show. Whu Natcho, Welcome to the show. You two,
(00:31):
it seems like you're everywhere together. You're like spiritual brothers,
is what I've heard, and I can't wait to dive
into the to the relationship. But you both are paving
the way right now when it comes to technology AI.
You know you're you're an incredible author. I've been able
(00:52):
to read several of your books, not all ninety plus
of them, but through AI, I feel like it'll help
me digest all of your teachings a little easier. You're
a conscious explorer. You do so much great work in
the mental health space, which I'm a huge advocate in.
It is so important and so needed. So welcome to
(01:14):
the show, both of you. Thank you for being here.
With that, let's let's really dive in to what you
both are doing right now with with AI. You just
you have two AI applications, but recently, let's let's talk
about the new one here, Deepak Chopra AI, which I'm
(01:40):
so excited to share with all of our viewers and
listeners because there are people struggling out there and having
access to this will change a lot of lives. So
why AI, Why decide to really integrate your teachings through
this type of lens in technology?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
So AI as we know it right now, the large
language model publicly available has only existed since twenty twelve,
so it's only not even twelve years. But I believe
that AI, along with immersive experiences, will leapfrog our cultural
(02:29):
and biological evolution in a way that is beyond anyone's imagination.
I like to share always when we talk about technology,
I'd like to share that between the years eighteen eighty
seven and nineteen o three, which is not even twenty years,
(02:52):
humanity came.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Up with.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
The light bulb, the autumnobile, wheel, the airplane, and the
telephone less than twenty years. And so if you were
shipwrecked on a deserted island in nineteen eighteen eighty five
and you were rescued twenty years later in say nineteen
(03:17):
oh five, you wouldn't recognize the world. You still see
horses and carriages, but you'll see these little machines walking
around with people in them and people putting kerosene oil
to make them move clumsily. So, having been a student
of both neuroscience and neurocognition and trained as a neuro endochronologist,
(03:44):
I believe that every experience we have changes the neural
landscape of our brain, and it does so through epigenetic activity,
which means right now, as people are listening to us
or watching us, this part of their brain, which we
call the frontal cortex, is being activated and genes are
(04:09):
being activated, and then neural landscape is changing what we
call short term and ultimately long term potentiation of neural activity.
So in the next twenty years, I believe that not
only AI, but there are many other things you know
(04:30):
happening that AI can put together, like gene editing, messenger RNA,
vaccines for prevention of cancer, microbiome et cetera. That in
twenty years, if you hang in there, you won't recognize
the world. It'll be a leapfrogging once again into a
(04:51):
new experience of humanity, but also a different brain, a
different body.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Wow does that feel intimidating when you hear this and
you have to create a AI platform to deliver the messaging.
He has lived and experienced. I feel like you've been
here for lifetimes, not just in this moment.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
But does that feel like a little bit of pressure
to you know.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
When I look at this, having worked with Depak over
years now, that we are very interesting crossroads as humanity. Right,
So one hand you touched on just earlier on we
are going through a collective mental health crisis. Yes, over
the next one hour conversation, we have more than sixty
people would have died. The silent pandemic is mental health
in this great country. Every twelve minutes. I was at
(05:42):
Harvard at an event. Twenty two veterans die every day.
If you LGBTQ and your parents don't accept, four times
more suicidality. Just look. The almost become numb to this.
So we were talking about it, like, so what can
we do about it?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Right?
Speaker 5 (05:57):
So today that you cannot have enough therapists first of all,
and if you have a therapist, you can't afford the therapist. So,
whether you like it or not, technology is a solution.
I've started my career on the internet, ninety one ninety two.
What's on the internet? Number one content is pawn as
part of motroller, motorphone, motor razor phone. What's that number
one thing?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Addiction?
Speaker 5 (06:19):
We are an interesting infliction point with AI that if
we can be conscious with AI, I think we can
help humanity. And today our only goal when you started
cyber human door AI is for us to create a
well being AI. AI for humanity, AI for good, AI
for well being. So what we really focused on is
(06:39):
two sides of the spectrum. One is can we use
technology AI to be your digital therapist at night? So
three o'clock in the morning, you have this question. You know,
I just broke up with my partner? What do I do?
What AI? Beyond AI? When you paid Depark Chopra AI,
it is a brand, it is a neuroendochronologist. It is trust. Yes,
(07:03):
So we're giving gravitas to AI with a brand called
Deepak Chopra, so that at three am in the morning
you ask a question, can you help me with the meditation?
We have analyzed ninety seven plus books, thousands hours of
videos will at least be your guide.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Right. The second big problem we are literally addressing with
AI is health and wellness. Like Deepak would say ninety
five percent of diseases are lifestyle and only five percent
of diseases are genetic fully penetrant genes like the.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Baraca one genes.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
If it is ninety five percent is lifestyle, that means
AI can be your coach. If you look at a genome, apgeno, microbiome,
expozone and I can create a twin of you what
we call life event ontology. Imagine Ashland. You can go
and ask AI, it's cyber human. On the days I
slept less than four hours, what happened? I imagine the
AI comes and says, Ashlyn, this is how much time
(07:54):
is spent on the road. How much these are people
you met? This how much you you know the temperature
and you index and this was the humidity. You can
now go back and say, maybe I need to get
a humidifier, or maybe I don't know why these are
toxicip to do we talk about loneliness another thing which
we want to have aidea. It's not about and this
(08:16):
is our tagline. AI is about using AI to enable
your natural intelligence. Asking the questions. You can augment your
intelligence to find your true self.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
That is the moonshot.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I love that and it's it speaks so true to.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
The beauty of AI.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And the other side is, you know, people fear AI,
people fear the deep fake, people fear the isolation of
our children because our children are growing up in this
world of technology and it is a part of them
and there's there there really is no way to stop it.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
It's already yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
However, you're right, there is this mental health crisis.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Their suicide rates are.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Unbearable to continue to digest at this point, and a
lot of them are young children because of social media,
because of isolation, because we live this life of comparison
and always wanting what we don't have, and we're being
fed it, you know, especially with algorithms and fake information,
(09:35):
And how are you creating guard.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Rails for this to not be.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
You know, for example, the fourteen year old young boy
in Florida who had a relationship with character AI and
ended up committing suicide at a very young age because
we didn't have the correct guard rails to protect our
vulnerable young children.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
How are you making sure in this.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Process with people who are having severe mental health crisis
that we don't have to have an issue like that. Again,
do you think about that? Do we even have guardrails
when it comes to heavy topics and crisis situations?
Speaker 5 (10:24):
And I can give you a perspective. So I think
one of the things we are not focused on is suicidality. Yes,
very difficult, Yes.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Very hard.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
And there are experts the Travel Foundation amazing. I mean
their experts are doing this. What Deepak has told us
very clearly. When you're at the ninety nine percent of suicidality,
you know it's called American Association of Suicideology as an
mnemonic called is pathwarm. I don't know if you know
(10:55):
this is pat h warm, ideation, substance abuse, lack of purpose, anxiety, trapped,
lack of hope, withdrawn anger, resentment, mood change. People who
have died by suicide. I've actually spoken to four people.
We just don't know. We just don't know, right, So
(11:18):
we are very first of all, when you talk to
an AI, you're giving agency. Yes, we don't take that.
We take that very seriously. So we have only focused
on well being right to help you understand yourself better
and really pass it on. So somebody comes in with depression,
that's not what we do we are focused on deepaks
(11:39):
eleven pillars or well being, Yes, helping you to be well,
and then basically if you actually are going we actually
pass it on. We say no, what you have to
call a therapist. We have to at that point you
need help, and that's the guardrail. Yes exactly, and we
know very well what is our limitations, right, and that's
really where we are focused on.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
I want to peel back.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I want to start from the beginning a little bit,
because you've dedicated your life to.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Your work. But through your work, you've.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Changed so many people's lives, and I what a beautiful
thing to be able to say. When you grew up
in India, where did that fire come from? Where did
that passion come from? To really serve people through your.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Lens of consciousness?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I mean, I follow you and I'm trying to learn
as someone who's grown up in this Western culture, which
I consider extremely toxic.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
And what I love is you have such.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
An inner balance and your aura is just so peaceful
and calm. You're never too high, you're never too low.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Where did this come from? Why did you choose this life?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It's a complicated answer. So when I was a child,
my parents came from two different ways of looking at
the world. So my father was a cardiologist and he
was actually very famous. He was at one time the
(13:22):
cardiologist to the Queen of England, the one who passed away.
He was a consultant to the Royal Heart Institute. He
discovered high altitude mountain sickness when India and China were
at war. He was in Lay twenty two thousand feet
(13:44):
above sea level doing cardiac cat on people who were
dying from high altitude heart disease. So he was trained
as a very very much a Western scientist. My mother,
on the other hand, was very spiritual and also very
(14:07):
much in love with.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Storytelling.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So every night before me and my brother who later
became the deaner of Education at Harvard Medical School, but
he's about three years younger than me, she would read
to us a story from Indian mythology, and then she
would stop at what is currently framed as a cliffhanger.
(14:36):
Everything was going wrong, everything was going wrong, and everybody
was either dying or desperate, and you know, the bad
guys were winning and the good guys were losing. And
then she would stop and she would say, I want
you to dream up the rest of the story tonight
(14:57):
and in the morning, tell me what the story is.
Make sure it's a happy ending, and make sure it's
a love story, because if it's not a love story,
it's not a good story. So we learned as kids
to reframe every adversity as an opportunity for a love
story with a happy ending. That was us as children. Later,
(15:19):
my father, you know, as he grew older, actually moved
over also to the spiritual domain, in that he would
see on the weekends he didn't take off, he would
see patients free of charge. Because he was well known.
People would come from all over the country to see him,
(15:41):
and my mother would cook food for them. The patients,
they wouldn't be charged, and when they left, my parents
would make sure that they're enough money for their bus
ride or their train ride. So I grew up with that. Later,
when I became a physician in the United States, I
(16:03):
lost all of that immediately, you know, because of the
environment internship residency, working in the emergency room, seeing gunshot
wounds every five minutes, seeing people die every five minutes,
a culture of extreme violence, and then my training itself,
(16:23):
which was extremely stressful. Everybody in my days when we
were training in first and New Jersey and later at
Harvard and BU and Tufts as physicians. We all smoked cigarettes,
We all drank a lot on the weekends, except those
(16:43):
who were on.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
On call.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And so I was living that lifestyle. And then I saw,
you know what that was doing to our brain. Because
I trained in neuroscience, I got back to my roots
and I started to explore in consciousness, which is the
basis of everything I do. It's not the brain, it's
not the mind, it's not the body. It's not what
(17:09):
the world is, but what is reality? And now the
technologies that we have AI and immersive experiences and VR
and MR and XR, which are coming, they're actually supporting
the world view that I grew up in, that the
(17:29):
physical world is a dream world. You know the Buddha's
last words before he died, This lifetime of ours is
transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death
of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance.
A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky,
rushing by, like a torrent down a steep mountain. And
(17:54):
when he said those his favorite disciples, and they said,
who are you are your God, are your enjoy your prophet?
He says none of the above. And so before he died,
and another said, then who are you? And he said,
I'm awake. And that became a quest of mind to
understand that we are already in an immersive reality. You know, Wickenstein,
(18:20):
the German philosopher, said, our life is a dream. We
are asleep, but once in a while we wake up
enough to know that we're dreaming. So I ask you
what happened to your childhood? You said, it's a dream now,
But what about those days when we were playing soccer
and competing internationally? Right now, that's a dream? What about yesterday?
(18:43):
What about this morning? By the time you hear my words,
they don't exist. So we are actually in an immersive
experience that is being projected by consciousness, and the mind,
the brain, the body, and the physical world are entangled dreams.
Now the tradition I come from, you know where, Growing
(19:05):
up I was deeply immersed in it. The first twenty
five years of your life is education, The second is
fame and fortune. The second twenty five years been there,
done that, The third is giving back. And now I'm
in the fourth stage, which is waking up from the dream.
So I'm using technology to prove that we are already
(19:29):
in a virtual reality. And the virtual reality is turning
into a nightmare. With war, with terrorism, with eco destruction,
with social economic gender injustice, with chronic disease, with total
absence of joy, suicide ideation we have created the dream
(19:54):
has turned into a nightmare, and so we need to
wake up. And that's my total focus now, Awakening, which
is my next book, by the way, Awakening, how to
wake up from the dream.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
A lot of what you do and the art of
who you are is through this lens of consciousness. And
I'm curious for people who are listening and who are watching,
can you simplify that to help me understand so I
(20:28):
can have clarity. Do my best, okay, because it is
it's an interesting thing, and it's such a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yes, so I'll do my best, okay, Okay. So to
make it very simple, Consciousness is that in which all
experience occurs, including this experience. Yes, it is that in
which all experience is known. And it is that which
is out of which all experience is made. Experience is
(20:57):
made out of consciousness. And where is consciousness? You can't
see it. And the reason you can't see it is
it is what is doing the scene. So just like
you can't bite your teeth or you can't see your
eyes unless you're looking at a mirror, you can't see consciousness.
(21:17):
And the reason you can't see consciousness is it has
no form. And because it has no form, it has
no border. And because it has no border, it is infinite.
It is spaceless, it is timeless, and it is beyond imagination.
It is incomprehensible. Yet without it there is no experience.
(21:38):
So what we have as experience is a reflection of
who we think we are. There's a big confusion between
self image and self esteem. So self image is socially
constructed by how many likes and how many dislikes you get. Yeah,
but that's always been the case. Self image has always
(22:00):
been dependent on the validation of the world. Self esteem
is independent of any validation. It's who you really are,
which is essentially incomprehensible, infinite, formless, spaceless, beyond imagination. And
(22:22):
yet without it there's no comprehension. There's no imagination, there's
no thinking, there's no feeling, there's nothing. So if we
get access to that. We have what is called true
self esteem because we know ourselves as infinite beings or
(22:43):
non local beings having a human experience, local experience. In
spiritual traditions, they say spiritual beings having a human experience.
So this is a human experience in consciousness, which is
outside of space time, which is in fact kind of
really mind that everyone's experience. We think our experience is
(23:06):
happening in New York City in the studio, but it's
actually happening outside of space time and New York City
and the studio, and you and me as body minds,
are part of that dream. And if you wake up
from the dream, then there's no issue about anything because
you're the infinite being literally, which is divine literally, So
(23:31):
what we call the divine or God is not some
entity out there.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
It is you.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Playing this role, and I'm playing another role, and he's
playing another role. And it's your destiny to play an
infinity of roles. But you're not the roles you're playing.
They think of a good Shakespeare play where everybody, you know,
there's the villain, there's the comedian, the world's the stage,
and I'm here to play a part. But then at
the end of the play on Broadway, they all come together,
(24:02):
they all take about and they're all smiling at each other,
knowing that they were playing a role. And so we
are playing roles, but we are not the roles we play.
We are infinite and divine and eternal and timeless and boundless.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Where is that intersection of where you talk about this
level of consciousness? Where does AI intersect in that?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So AI has access to those who attained this kind
of liberation and freedom, whether it's the Buddha, or it's
Jesus Christ, or it's roomy. They had this experience, but
even they were not able to articulate it because it's
(25:02):
so ineffable. Yes, but they pointed the way. So if
Jesus says the Kingdom of Heaven is within, then don't
look there, look within. I mean he said it right.
So if Jesus is pointing to the moon, then don't
worship his finger. Look at the moon and what he achieved.
(25:22):
Instead of saying how can I follow Jesus, you should
really be asking yourself. And this sounds blasphemous. How can
I be like that? And how can I have that freedom?
So a points is a map. Yes, it's not the territory,
it's the menu. It's not the meal. You can't go
to a restaurant and eat the menu. You have to
eat the meal. And so AI is like the menu.
(25:46):
And some of us may point to what Jesus is
pointing at, some of us, what the Buddha is pointing
at some of us would room me some of us
Socrates or Plato or the luminaries of humanity. Now we
can access the mind of anyone and then we can
decide what our roadmap is. This is what we're trying
(26:09):
to achieve with a not be like me or like
my avatar, but be your own avatar in the end.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Now, for someone who wants to feel this and be
a part of this, in this space of consciousness, where
would you tell people to start?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So you start where you are and then you build
up into what is ultimately freedom, which is called self realization,
not self improvement. Okay, self improvement is part of the journey.
How can I be a better athlete? How can be
a better person? But it's not telling you who you
(26:54):
are because who you are is actually inconceivable and imperceivable
and without cause and eternal. Yes, that ultimately is the destination.
But along the destination you improve what people want to
How can I have a joyful and energetic body, I'm
(27:14):
going to have a loving, compassionate heart. How can I
have a clear, creative mind? How can I enjoy lightness
of being? Because if I have lightness of being, I
bring the lightness of being to others. Yes, who you
are is reflected in every situation, every circumstance, every event,
every relationship is a reflection of who you think you are.
(27:37):
But as moment you think you are something, you have
sacrificed the self for your self image.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Wow, I want to dive into that more and I
want to share something with you that's very personal and
I'm grateful for So I went to your wellness oasis
and I was a speaker at the event. Was humbled
to be asked to come to talk about So. I
really did a lot of digging. I sat with you
both that night. I started unpacking, like what is joy?
(28:07):
What is this human experience? What is this connective tissue
and mindset? And I got on stage and I was
very vulnerable when I said, I don't know if I
really know what joy is because I've been so conditioned
to suffer in my job and my trauma of childhood
(28:30):
that I feel more comfort and the suffering, and it
feels more at home. That joy is a practiced art
for me. I have to wake up and choose it
in a lot of ways. And I really went on
this mission to better myself and ask the question why
(28:52):
why do I feel more comfort and suffering in this
Western culture?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
So I want to talk to you about it.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Let me address that.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
But you gave me the opportunity to promote something which
we have online right now. It's called the Happiness Prescription, Yes,
and so if you want to check it out, I
do the showpad dot com. But here's the difference between
joy and happiness. Okay, Happiness and sadness are opposite. Okay,
(29:25):
they come from the conditioned mind. You're happy always for
a reason, and you're also unhappy for a reason. So
it's the conditioned mind that vacillates between happiness and unhappiness.
Joy is independent of both. It's before your conditioned mind.
(29:46):
So if you want to see joy, look at a baby. Okay,
the baby has a smile for no reason. A baby
will try and catch your eyes and as soon as
it catches you, it'll smile, so you're forced to smile back.
It is watching you all the time, whether your facial expressions,
(30:07):
your eye movements, the tone of your voice, your body language,
your gestures, because it wants to resonate with you with
what it is experiencing, which is.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Joy.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
It's the return to innocence for adults. You have to
go beyond your conditioning. So the seventh you know in
our course, the happiness prescription. The last item is live
for enlightenment. Okay, so go through all the practices, listen
to your body, understand the happiness formulas it's understood by scientists,
(30:51):
which is basically your attitude to life, your conditions of living,
purpose and meaning in existence, ability to make other people happy.
All of that makes you happy. But then, no matter
how happy you are, there's a little thought.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Is something missing? And what is missing is.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
That thing we call joy, which you think is around
the corner the right relationship, the right health, the right
amount of money, and you get there and something is
still missing. What is missing is you don't know yourself
beyond what other people think of you. So when you're
(31:38):
fully joyful, you're basically independent of the good and bad
opinions of the world. You're also fearless and you feel
beneath no one, but you also don't feel superior to anyone,
and you have access to what is called fundamental creativity
because most of our creativity simulated creativity. You know, when
(32:02):
I look at somebody like a Shakespeare or a Mozart
or an Einstein, these guys had fundamental creativity because they
were in love with in the pursuit of reality. Not
in the image of reality, but in the pursuit of reality.
(32:22):
And so if you have to look at examples, you
don't necessarily have to look at spiritual examples because they
are great, you know, Jesus, Buddha, etc.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Roomy. But look at some of.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
The luminaries in the world of art and science, and
you see that they struggled in the same way as
you struggled. You know, Einstein had lots of issues. Yeh okay,
so did all these artists. Van Go was a tortured soul,
but they also had glimpses of truth.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
Wow, very power.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And after this experience we had, I've really been diving
into a lot more work, and it triggered something in
me to think, I do need to know myself more,
and I do need to understand.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
The opinions of the world.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yes, exactly, because we you know, you live in the
public eye. You know, it opens a lot of judgment
and expectations placed on you from other people.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Which I faced, and I was distressed and fought back.
And then I realized, why am I creating turbulence for
myself by exactly doing what I think I should not
be doing.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
So it's all good, and it's interesting that you say that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And after our you know, after we had that moment
and I was able to go home and reflect, I
went on a trip to the middle of the desert,
stayed in a tent, and I practice gratitude of remembering
this beautiful life of lessons and how I want to
(34:15):
show up and how I want to do things differently,
and how I want to be proud, how I want
to raise children, how I want to show up in
this world. And I had this beautiful experience and I
think travel does that to us. Travel is such a
gift in life lessons and you are someone who has
traveled and studied all over the world, and there are
(34:39):
people who travel who close their eyes on road trips,
and I just feel like my chest opens And it's
a such a beautiful learning moment to see other people's culture,
to see how they move, to see how they eat,
to see how they make things. And I'm curious of
(34:59):
how that has impacted your life, your lessons, your teachings,
your mindset, your consciousness.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
What is it about traveling?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Well, it removes the fear of what we call the
other who's different from us, and ultimately realize that actually
they're just like you, just wearing different clothes or different
eating different kinds of cuisine, which, if you're interested, actually
makes in a maximum diversity, makes the experience of life
(35:33):
very joyful. Maximum diversity of experience. Yes, And when we
isolate ourselves through extreme nationalism or extreme religious identity or
ethnic identity, then we live in fear.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
And so travel removes that.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And I do think in this current culture and political landscape,
that is the message.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
It is the message.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Yeah, how do we like, how do we combat that with? Like,
how do we show up in space anything?
Speaker 5 (36:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:08):
You know, you can't fight darkness. You shine the light
and you hope that some people will respond, and actually,
these days it's happening a lot of people have realized
that liberation lies in knowing yourself. That's why it's called
(36:28):
self realization, self knowing, and it's beyond self improvement, but
self improvement is part of it.
Speaker 5 (36:36):
I was just thinking, like you were talking about joy
and I was thinking as myself as a CEO of father,
how do I practice it every day? There's four things
I do. I'm an engineer. I need a compass every morning.
I get up every morning ask myself these four questions, like,
you know, authenticity, I'm authentic. I do I have integrity
to follow on what I'm doing?
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Right?
Speaker 5 (36:56):
Is it got higher purpose? And causing the matter. So
that's kind of the free of reference everything I do.
And at fifty five, I want to like this phase
of my life is giving back be of service if
I do these four things. And I said, okay, I'm
living my life with authenticity, integrity, higher purpose, cause in
the matter. Another thing which I think when I talk
about AI, I really believe. I talk to my engineers
(37:19):
and I tell them because engineers are like doctors today
right the work by being a physician, he took an
oath to help people and save lives. Today an algorithm
is doing that.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yes, right?
Speaker 5 (37:29):
So I always ask them, like you, when you're coding,
we have princip called love and action. Do you embed
in the intention of the software? Attention, appreciation, affection and acceptance?
How do we ground the principles of technology with compassion?
And I think it's not about writing a piece of code.
Everybody can write a piece of code. In fact, AI
(37:50):
can write a better piece of code. Yes, what is
the intention? What is the ethics? What is the integrity
of what you do? Why you do what you do?
Which is very important?
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Wow, very important.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
After this brief message from our sponsors, I want to
ask both of you because this is a reoccurring question
I always ask on this show. We always have this
one defying moment that really changes the landscape of how
we show up, this overall consciousness of I have to
(38:27):
listen to this moment that could really change everything for me.
What was that moment in both of your lives that
really split you wide open, that changed everything for you,
that made you see life differently.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I grew up, as you know, in an environment where
I did not experience trauma zero.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Wow, So I was lucky.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Then I got bamboozled by the American medicans him and
my moment of resurrection was I had intubated a patient
with chronic palmary disease, put a pacemaker in his heart,
(39:18):
and then I walked out of the ico to smoke
a cigarette and I felt totally disgusted. I threw away
my cigarette. I gave up alcohol in that moment, and
I committed my life to service.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
That's a pretty big moment.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yes, and luckily you did that because you really talk
about service.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
That wasn't my bringing up, by the way, Yeah, it
was what I got into as part of my training.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Yeahs.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
You know, in the seventies and late sixth sties, doctors
wearing strathoscopes and white gowns would advertise in medical journals
Lucky Strike is better than Mildboro.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Cigarettes or whatever. We were that first part of the culture.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Well, that's a pretty big, wide open story to really
change everything because you've done so much since that day.
That's a big impact on the legacy of your life,
that's for sure. What about you?
Speaker 5 (40:36):
You know, I think I grew up in a very
I would say strict discipline. My dad are tough cops.
He always said, grown men don't cry, and chivalry encourage.
You got to be your service, you know, you got
to prove that you'll take care of people. So service
has been my underlying theme. You know, It's about how
do you discharge your service with the utmost dedication. So
(40:58):
that's always been my thing. I think I think May
would say life has been a series of moments. But
during one of my motorcycle trips, I think it kind
of when I was actually working with a good friend
of the Park, Shaker Kapoor, an India filmmaker, I was
going through a crossroads of my life and that's when
I actually met the Park. I was on a bike
trip in India in Layla, dark actually thick, same monastery,
(41:19):
climbed up and then typically all these monsters monasteries, you
park the bike and you climb up these days and
you go on top. I meant this monk was very
joyful and very happy, asked a bunch of questions about
all my life and all of that. He looked at
a sign and so I think that's your answer, and
the once I couldn't read it he said, it's basically
a code by law Zoo. It said that which you
(41:40):
had every day creates knowledge, that which you subtract every
day creates wisdom. Son, I think it's time for you
to go towards wisdom, not knowledge. Because I was in
this mode of adding, adding, adding, adding, and became wisdom subtraction.
That's when I I met with the park and the
rest of his But every day I get up. Also,
(42:02):
my practice is what do I subtract? What is one
thing can I forget today? What can I unlearn? And
because there's so much of us learning, we serve this.
Who read this, We read that you had something else.
I try to practice every day subtraction process.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Tell me more about that. I'm curious, like, how give
me an example for me?
Speaker 5 (42:24):
I think with my own kids have been teachers, right,
I've learned that every time we tend, we tend to go.
We tell them I know this, I did that, I've
accomplished this. But for me, every day I try to
go back. Can I say I want to unlearn what
I learned? I unlearned discipline? I actually learned that from
the pak. He says, Actually it's a futile exercise. You know,
(42:45):
because discipline is something I learned unlearned it, but it
was actually coming in the way of my creativity.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
But I should say that for those who are listening
to us, every season of life is appropriate. So you know,
there are seasons in life. Some are winter, you know,
for me it's winter right now, for some it's autumn,
some it's summer, some it's spring. And every season is appropriate.
(43:14):
So don't try to be what you don't feel like being.
You know, and bring presence to every experience and you'll
enjoy the experience.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
When you bring.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Presence to an object, even a microphone starts to look beautiful.
When you bring presence to a person, you experience love. Yes,
and that is all that matters. Love and beauty and
presence are the same thing.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I have to ask this as two fathers. I'm raising
two very young children and they're two and four, and
there's so much of your commonness, like you're so you're
like the way you show up in the world that
(44:04):
I want to learn and take and bring to my children.
What made in your opinion, what made you special? And
what did you want your children to take away most
of you both showing up as dats.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I have to give my wife a lot of credit
for that, because you know, I'm also professional, and I
was writing books and giving lectures. I think children don't
like to be lectured. So the best advice I can
give for children, especially to and four, is play with
them and engage in storytelling and encourage their unique talents.
(44:47):
If your child is mathematics and go to tennis, get
him a tennis coach instead of a mathematician to tutorim.
They'll hire a mathematician to be as accountant. So encourage
not the weakness or try to correct the weakness. Know
(45:09):
their strengths because they all have unique strengths.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
And be playful.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I love that you say that be playful, you have to.
The moment I feel the most joy is when I
just play with my kids, Like when's the last time
we just played at.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Your two year old would like nothing more.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I'm like mama the mons sir, and we just like
you just drop the guard and you just play so freely,
which we lose sight of as adults. We lose sight
of joy and playfulness, and like imagination and creativity. I
(45:50):
love just imagining things with my children. We do ice
cream stands. And I would love strawberry ice cream and
my child children's ability to just imagine things gives me
joy because I can be in it with them.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
In playfulness, there is presence without trying to be present. Yes,
which happens to athletes too in moments of big performance. Right,
you'd forget who you are You're just playing.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Yeah, we should play more as adults.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
We should be playing for best teachers.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
Yes, what about you.
Speaker 5 (46:31):
I think where I am today with my twenty four
year old and my twenty year old is radical honesty.
I'm very transparent that I have don't have all the answers,
but I'm willing to work with them, listen to them,
and co create with them. That's been I think my
biggest blessing. That they don't have a look at me
(46:52):
as they're there, but together we co create, that I
always be there for them, and together we explore. And
I think I learned that you know, you don't get
to use a manual to be a father or a mother, right,
You write the manual as you go. Yeah, And I
think everyone is unique as a fingerprint, and the purpose
(47:13):
of life is to go create an experience. That's been
my learning.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
That's beautiful and thank you both, yeah, both, thank you
for sharing that. And I do think in a time
right now, for so many who are listening, we should
show up more in a state of happiness and joy
and learn what that looks like by learning ourselves and
the process. I think, especially as parents, we're learning in
(47:42):
real time as well while our children are watching. And
sometimes that feels heavy because there are different seasons. There's
seasons of grief, there are seasons of hardship and being
honest about what life is handing us and not pretending
(48:06):
it's okay. And we're in this pursuit of perfection. That's
what I'm having to unlearn in real time is I
have been built to be a machine of perfection and
that just doesn't exist. It's impossible to sustain. I am
(48:26):
not a perfect partner, I am not a perfect mom.
I was not a perfect athlete. I tried, but it's
really interesting just to say I'm in this season and
I just want to be and feel and work through
it all while serving other people through kindness, because kindness
(48:49):
is currency. It is currency, and I wish more people
chose kindness and joy and happiness. We would live in
a better world. But through your work, people are going
to be able to access that, which well.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
I hope all.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
So with that, I I am so grateful, thank you.
I'm grateful for being able to follow you and all
the places I possibly can and learn from you both
well great, really grateful for this opportunity. So before we go,
I would love for you to share where the new
app is Dpak Chopra dot ai and how people can
(49:32):
find find the application and all the work that you
both are doing in the technology space.
Speaker 5 (49:39):
So first of all, just go to Depak dot ai,
which is the website. You don't have to download an app.
I think it's accessible to all. So that's really the
first the QR code which is there, and I think
the promise here is what Deepak says. As an athlete,
you always looking at peak performance. Our vision is peak living.
Everybody deserves peak living and depug vision and the wisdom
(50:01):
of age and the vitality or the biology of youth.
So really having those conversations on Deepak Show, Pradie and
I think it's accessible to all.
Speaker 4 (50:10):
That's lovely. Thank you both so much. Thank you for
being here.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Everyone, Please go check out deepalkshowpro dot ai, the new application,
which is literally you as an AI twin. How cool
is it I get to carry you in my pocket
every single day and ask you questions when I miss you.
Thank you, Thank you both for being here. Thank you
for being so vulnerable. Thank you for sharing how important
(50:37):
the intersection of mindfulness and technology can be because we
can use it for good and it can help a
lot of people. Thanks for being here, everyone, I'll see
you next week on Wide Open with Ashland Harris. Wide
Open with Ashland Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
You can find us on.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronoff, and Lucy Jones.
Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan
(51:19):
and Emily Rudder and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Welcome back to another episode of Wide Open with Ashland Harris.
I'm so excited to have two incredible guests today who
I admire so greatly. I was just explaining the lightness
I feel even in their presence. Deepak Chopra, Welcome to
the show. Whu Natcho, Welcome to the show. You two,
(00:31):
it seems like you're everywhere together. You're like spiritual brothers,
is what I've heard, and I can't wait to dive
into the to the relationship. But you both are paving
the way right now when it comes to technology AI.
You know you're you're an incredible author. I've been able
(00:52):
to read several of your books, not all ninety plus
of them, but through AI, I feel like it'll help
me digest all of your teachings a little easier. You're
a conscious explorer. You do so much great work in
the mental health space, which I'm a huge advocate in.
It is so important and so needed. So welcome to
(01:14):
the show, both of you. Thank you for being here.
With that, let's let's really dive in to what you
both are doing right now with with AI. You just
you have two AI applications, but recently, let's let's talk
about the new one here, Deepak Chopra AI, which I'm
(01:40):
so excited to share with all of our viewers and
listeners because there are people struggling out there and having
access to this will change a lot of lives. So
why AI, Why decide to really integrate your teachings through
this type of lens in technology?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
So AI as we know it right now, the large
language model publicly available has only existed since twenty twelve,
so it's only not even twelve years. But I believe
that AI, along with immersive experiences, will leapfrog our cultural
(02:29):
and biological evolution in a way that is beyond anyone's imagination.
I like to share always when we talk about technology,
I'd like to share that between the years eighteen eighty
seven and nineteen o three, which is not even twenty years,
(02:52):
humanity came.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Up with.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
The light bulb, the autumnobile, wheel, the airplane, and the
telephone less than twenty years. And so if you were
shipwrecked on a deserted island in nineteen eighteen eighty five
and you were rescued twenty years later in say nineteen
(03:17):
oh five, you wouldn't recognize the world. You still see
horses and carriages, but you'll see these little machines walking
around with people in them and people putting kerosene oil
to make them move clumsily. So, having been a student
of both neuroscience and neurocognition and trained as a neuro endochronologist,
(03:44):
I believe that every experience we have changes the neural
landscape of our brain, and it does so through epigenetic activity,
which means right now, as people are listening to us
or watching us, this part of their brain, which we
call the frontal cortex, is being activated and genes are
(04:09):
being activated, and then neural landscape is changing what we
call short term and ultimately long term potentiation of neural activity.
So in the next twenty years, I believe that not
only AI, but there are many other things you know
(04:30):
happening that AI can put together, like gene editing, messenger RNA,
vaccines for prevention of cancer, microbiome et cetera. That in
twenty years, if you hang in there, you won't recognize
the world. It'll be a leapfrogging once again into a
(04:51):
new experience of humanity, but also a different brain, a
different body.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Wow does that feel intimidating when you hear this and
you have to create a AI platform to deliver the messaging.
He has lived and experienced. I feel like you've been
here for lifetimes, not just in this moment.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
But does that feel like a little bit of pressure
to you know.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
When I look at this, having worked with Depak over
years now, that we are very interesting crossroads as humanity. Right,
So one hand you touched on just earlier on we
are going through a collective mental health crisis. Yes, over
the next one hour conversation, we have more than sixty
people would have died. The silent pandemic is mental health
in this great country. Every twelve minutes. I was at
(05:42):
Harvard at an event. Twenty two veterans die every day.
If you LGBTQ and your parents don't accept, four times
more suicidality. Just look. The almost become numb to this.
So we were talking about it, like, so what can
we do about it?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Right?
Speaker 5 (05:57):
So today that you cannot have enough therapists first of all,
and if you have a therapist, you can't afford the therapist. So,
whether you like it or not, technology is a solution.
I've started my career on the internet, ninety one ninety two.
What's on the internet? Number one content is pawn as
part of motroller, motorphone, motor razor phone. What's that number
one thing?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Addiction?
Speaker 5 (06:19):
We are an interesting infliction point with AI that if
we can be conscious with AI, I think we can
help humanity. And today our only goal when you started
cyber human door AI is for us to create a
well being AI. AI for humanity, AI for good, AI
for well being. So what we really focused on is
(06:39):
two sides of the spectrum. One is can we use
technology AI to be your digital therapist at night? So
three o'clock in the morning, you have this question. You know,
I just broke up with my partner? What do I do?
What AI? Beyond AI? When you paid Depark Chopra AI,
it is a brand, it is a neuroendochronologist. It is trust. Yes,
(07:03):
So we're giving gravitas to AI with a brand called
Deepak Chopra, so that at three am in the morning
you ask a question, can you help me with the meditation?
We have analyzed ninety seven plus books, thousands hours of
videos will at least be your guide.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Right. The second big problem we are literally addressing with
AI is health and wellness. Like Deepak would say ninety
five percent of diseases are lifestyle and only five percent
of diseases are genetic fully penetrant genes like the.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Baraca one genes.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
If it is ninety five percent is lifestyle, that means
AI can be your coach. If you look at a genome, apgeno, microbiome,
expozone and I can create a twin of you what
we call life event ontology. Imagine Ashland. You can go
and ask AI, it's cyber human. On the days I
slept less than four hours, what happened? I imagine the
AI comes and says, Ashlyn, this is how much time
(07:54):
is spent on the road. How much these are people
you met? This how much you you know the temperature
and you index and this was the humidity. You can
now go back and say, maybe I need to get
a humidifier, or maybe I don't know why these are
toxicip to do we talk about loneliness another thing which
we want to have aidea. It's not about and this
(08:16):
is our tagline. AI is about using AI to enable
your natural intelligence. Asking the questions. You can augment your
intelligence to find your true self.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
That is the moonshot.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I love that and it's it speaks so true to.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
The beauty of AI.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And the other side is, you know, people fear AI,
people fear the deep fake, people fear the isolation of
our children because our children are growing up in this
world of technology and it is a part of them
and there's there there really is no way to stop it.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
It's already yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
However, you're right, there is this mental health crisis.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Their suicide rates are.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Unbearable to continue to digest at this point, and a
lot of them are young children because of social media,
because of isolation, because we live this life of comparison
and always wanting what we don't have, and we're being
fed it, you know, especially with algorithms and fake information,
(09:35):
And how are you creating guard.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Rails for this to not be.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
You know, for example, the fourteen year old young boy
in Florida who had a relationship with character AI and
ended up committing suicide at a very young age because
we didn't have the correct guard rails to protect our
vulnerable young children.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
How are you making sure in this.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Process with people who are having severe mental health crisis
that we don't have to have an issue like that. Again,
do you think about that? Do we even have guardrails
when it comes to heavy topics and crisis situations?
Speaker 5 (10:24):
And I can give you a perspective. So I think
one of the things we are not focused on is suicidality. Yes,
very difficult, Yes.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Very hard.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
And there are experts the Travel Foundation amazing. I mean
their experts are doing this. What Deepak has told us
very clearly. When you're at the ninety nine percent of suicidality,
you know it's called American Association of Suicideology as an
mnemonic called is pathwarm. I don't know if you know
(10:55):
this is pat h warm, ideation, substance abuse, lack of purpose, anxiety, trapped,
lack of hope, withdrawn anger, resentment, mood change. People who
have died by suicide. I've actually spoken to four people.
We just don't know. We just don't know, right, So
(11:18):
we are very first of all, when you talk to
an AI, you're giving agency. Yes, we don't take that.
We take that very seriously. So we have only focused
on well being right to help you understand yourself better
and really pass it on. So somebody comes in with depression,
that's not what we do we are focused on deepaks
(11:39):
eleven pillars or well being, Yes, helping you to be well,
and then basically if you actually are going we actually
pass it on. We say no, what you have to
call a therapist. We have to at that point you
need help, and that's the guardrail. Yes exactly, and we
know very well what is our limitations, right, and that's
really where we are focused on.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
I want to peel back.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I want to start from the beginning a little bit,
because you've dedicated your life to.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Your work. But through your work, you've.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Changed so many people's lives, and I what a beautiful
thing to be able to say. When you grew up
in India, where did that fire come from? Where did
that passion come from? To really serve people through your.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Lens of consciousness?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I mean, I follow you and I'm trying to learn
as someone who's grown up in this Western culture, which
I consider extremely toxic.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
And what I love is you have such.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
An inner balance and your aura is just so peaceful
and calm. You're never too high, you're never too low.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Where did this come from? Why did you choose this life?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It's a complicated answer. So when I was a child,
my parents came from two different ways of looking at
the world. So my father was a cardiologist and he
was actually very famous. He was at one time the
(13:22):
cardiologist to the Queen of England, the one who passed away.
He was a consultant to the Royal Heart Institute. He
discovered high altitude mountain sickness when India and China were
at war. He was in Lay twenty two thousand feet
(13:44):
above sea level doing cardiac cat on people who were
dying from high altitude heart disease. So he was trained
as a very very much a Western scientist. My mother,
on the other hand, was very spiritual and also very
(14:07):
much in love with.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Storytelling.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So every night before me and my brother who later
became the deaner of Education at Harvard Medical School, but
he's about three years younger than me, she would read
to us a story from Indian mythology, and then she
would stop at what is currently framed as a cliffhanger.
(14:36):
Everything was going wrong, everything was going wrong, and everybody
was either dying or desperate, and you know, the bad
guys were winning and the good guys were losing. And
then she would stop and she would say, I want
you to dream up the rest of the story tonight
(14:57):
and in the morning, tell me what the story is.
Make sure it's a happy ending, and make sure it's
a love story, because if it's not a love story,
it's not a good story. So we learned as kids
to reframe every adversity as an opportunity for a love
story with a happy ending. That was us as children. Later,
(15:19):
my father, you know, as he grew older, actually moved
over also to the spiritual domain, in that he would
see on the weekends he didn't take off, he would
see patients free of charge. Because he was well known.
People would come from all over the country to see him,
(15:41):
and my mother would cook food for them. The patients,
they wouldn't be charged, and when they left, my parents
would make sure that they're enough money for their bus
ride or their train ride. So I grew up with that. Later,
when I became a physician in the United States, I
(16:03):
lost all of that immediately, you know, because of the
environment internship residency, working in the emergency room, seeing gunshot
wounds every five minutes, seeing people die every five minutes,
a culture of extreme violence, and then my training itself,
(16:23):
which was extremely stressful. Everybody in my days when we
were training in first and New Jersey and later at
Harvard and BU and Tufts as physicians. We all smoked cigarettes,
We all drank a lot on the weekends, except those
(16:43):
who were on.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
On call.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And so I was living that lifestyle. And then I saw,
you know what that was doing to our brain. Because
I trained in neuroscience, I got back to my roots
and I started to explore in consciousness, which is the
basis of everything I do. It's not the brain, it's
not the mind, it's not the body. It's not what
(17:09):
the world is, but what is reality? And now the
technologies that we have AI and immersive experiences and VR
and MR and XR, which are coming, they're actually supporting
the world view that I grew up in, that the
(17:29):
physical world is a dream world. You know the Buddha's
last words before he died, This lifetime of ours is
transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death
of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance.
A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky,
rushing by, like a torrent down a steep mountain. And
(17:54):
when he said those his favorite disciples, and they said,
who are you are your God, are your enjoy your prophet?
He says none of the above. And so before he died,
and another said, then who are you? And he said,
I'm awake. And that became a quest of mind to
understand that we are already in an immersive reality. You know, Wickenstein,
(18:20):
the German philosopher, said, our life is a dream. We
are asleep, but once in a while we wake up
enough to know that we're dreaming. So I ask you
what happened to your childhood? You said, it's a dream now,
But what about those days when we were playing soccer
and competing internationally? Right now, that's a dream? What about yesterday?
(18:43):
What about this morning? By the time you hear my words,
they don't exist. So we are actually in an immersive
experience that is being projected by consciousness, and the mind,
the brain, the body, and the physical world are entangled dreams.
Now the tradition I come from, you know where, Growing
(19:05):
up I was deeply immersed in it. The first twenty
five years of your life is education, The second is
fame and fortune. The second twenty five years been there,
done that, The third is giving back. And now I'm
in the fourth stage, which is waking up from the dream.
So I'm using technology to prove that we are already
(19:29):
in a virtual reality. And the virtual reality is turning
into a nightmare. With war, with terrorism, with eco destruction,
with social economic gender injustice, with chronic disease, with total
absence of joy, suicide ideation we have created the dream
(19:54):
has turned into a nightmare, and so we need to
wake up. And that's my total focus now, Awakening, which
is my next book, by the way, Awakening, how to
wake up from the dream.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
A lot of what you do and the art of
who you are is through this lens of consciousness. And
I'm curious for people who are listening and who are watching,
can you simplify that to help me understand so I
(20:28):
can have clarity. Do my best, okay, because it is
it's an interesting thing, and it's such a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yes, so I'll do my best, okay, Okay. So to
make it very simple, Consciousness is that in which all
experience occurs, including this experience. Yes, it is that in
which all experience is known. And it is that which
is out of which all experience is made. Experience is
(20:57):
made out of consciousness. And where is consciousness? You can't
see it. And the reason you can't see it is
it is what is doing the scene. So just like
you can't bite your teeth or you can't see your
eyes unless you're looking at a mirror, you can't see consciousness.
(21:17):
And the reason you can't see consciousness is it has
no form. And because it has no form, it has
no border. And because it has no border, it is infinite.
It is spaceless, it is timeless, and it is beyond imagination.
It is incomprehensible. Yet without it there is no experience.
(21:38):
So what we have as experience is a reflection of
who we think we are. There's a big confusion between
self image and self esteem. So self image is socially
constructed by how many likes and how many dislikes you get. Yeah,
but that's always been the case. Self image has always
(22:00):
been dependent on the validation of the world. Self esteem
is independent of any validation. It's who you really are,
which is essentially incomprehensible, infinite, formless, spaceless, beyond imagination. And
(22:22):
yet without it there's no comprehension. There's no imagination, there's
no thinking, there's no feeling, there's nothing. So if we
get access to that. We have what is called true
self esteem because we know ourselves as infinite beings or
(22:43):
non local beings having a human experience, local experience. In
spiritual traditions, they say spiritual beings having a human experience.
So this is a human experience in consciousness, which is
outside of space time, which is in fact kind of
really mind that everyone's experience. We think our experience is
(23:06):
happening in New York City in the studio, but it's
actually happening outside of space time and New York City
and the studio, and you and me as body minds,
are part of that dream. And if you wake up
from the dream, then there's no issue about anything because
you're the infinite being literally, which is divine literally, So
(23:31):
what we call the divine or God is not some
entity out there.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
It is you.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Playing this role, and I'm playing another role, and he's
playing another role. And it's your destiny to play an
infinity of roles. But you're not the roles you're playing.
They think of a good Shakespeare play where everybody, you know,
there's the villain, there's the comedian, the world's the stage,
and I'm here to play a part. But then at
the end of the play on Broadway, they all come together,
(24:02):
they all take about and they're all smiling at each other,
knowing that they were playing a role. And so we
are playing roles, but we are not the roles we play.
We are infinite and divine and eternal and timeless and boundless.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Where is that intersection of where you talk about this
level of consciousness? Where does AI intersect in that?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So AI has access to those who attained this kind
of liberation and freedom, whether it's the Buddha, or it's
Jesus Christ, or it's roomy. They had this experience, but
even they were not able to articulate it because it's
(25:02):
so ineffable. Yes, but they pointed the way. So if
Jesus says the Kingdom of Heaven is within, then don't
look there, look within. I mean he said it right.
So if Jesus is pointing to the moon, then don't
worship his finger. Look at the moon and what he achieved.
(25:22):
Instead of saying how can I follow Jesus, you should
really be asking yourself. And this sounds blasphemous. How can
I be like that? And how can I have that freedom?
So a points is a map. Yes, it's not the territory,
it's the menu. It's not the meal. You can't go
to a restaurant and eat the menu. You have to
eat the meal. And so AI is like the menu.
(25:46):
And some of us may point to what Jesus is
pointing at, some of us, what the Buddha is pointing
at some of us would room me some of us
Socrates or Plato or the luminaries of humanity. Now we
can access the mind of anyone and then we can
decide what our roadmap is. This is what we're trying
(26:09):
to achieve with a not be like me or like
my avatar, but be your own avatar in the end.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Now, for someone who wants to feel this and be
a part of this, in this space of consciousness, where
would you tell people to start?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So you start where you are and then you build
up into what is ultimately freedom, which is called self realization,
not self improvement. Okay, self improvement is part of the journey.
How can I be a better athlete? How can be
a better person? But it's not telling you who you
(26:54):
are because who you are is actually inconceivable and imperceivable
and without cause and eternal. Yes, that ultimately is the destination.
But along the destination you improve what people want to
How can I have a joyful and energetic body, I'm
(27:14):
going to have a loving, compassionate heart. How can I
have a clear, creative mind? How can I enjoy lightness
of being? Because if I have lightness of being, I
bring the lightness of being to others. Yes, who you
are is reflected in every situation, every circumstance, every event,
every relationship is a reflection of who you think you are.
(27:37):
But as moment you think you are something, you have
sacrificed the self for your self image.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Wow, I want to dive into that more and I
want to share something with you that's very personal and
I'm grateful for So I went to your wellness oasis
and I was a speaker at the event. Was humbled
to be asked to come to talk about So. I
really did a lot of digging. I sat with you
both that night. I started unpacking, like what is joy?
(28:07):
What is this human experience? What is this connective tissue
and mindset? And I got on stage and I was
very vulnerable when I said, I don't know if I
really know what joy is because I've been so conditioned
to suffer in my job and my trauma of childhood
(28:30):
that I feel more comfort and the suffering, and it
feels more at home. That joy is a practiced art
for me. I have to wake up and choose it
in a lot of ways. And I really went on
this mission to better myself and ask the question why
(28:52):
why do I feel more comfort and suffering in this
Western culture?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
So I want to talk to you about it.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Let me address that.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
But you gave me the opportunity to promote something which
we have online right now. It's called the Happiness Prescription, Yes,
and so if you want to check it out, I
do the showpad dot com. But here's the difference between
joy and happiness. Okay, Happiness and sadness are opposite. Okay,
(29:25):
they come from the conditioned mind. You're happy always for
a reason, and you're also unhappy for a reason. So
it's the conditioned mind that vacillates between happiness and unhappiness.
Joy is independent of both. It's before your conditioned mind.
(29:46):
So if you want to see joy, look at a baby. Okay,
the baby has a smile for no reason. A baby
will try and catch your eyes and as soon as
it catches you, it'll smile, so you're forced to smile back.
It is watching you all the time, whether your facial expressions,
(30:07):
your eye movements, the tone of your voice, your body language,
your gestures, because it wants to resonate with you with
what it is experiencing, which is.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Joy.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
It's the return to innocence for adults. You have to
go beyond your conditioning. So the seventh you know in
our course, the happiness prescription. The last item is live
for enlightenment. Okay, so go through all the practices, listen
to your body, understand the happiness formulas it's understood by scientists,
(30:51):
which is basically your attitude to life, your conditions of living,
purpose and meaning in existence, ability to make other people happy.
All of that makes you happy. But then, no matter
how happy you are, there's a little thought.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Is something missing? And what is missing is.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
That thing we call joy, which you think is around
the corner the right relationship, the right health, the right
amount of money, and you get there and something is
still missing. What is missing is you don't know yourself
beyond what other people think of you. So when you're
(31:38):
fully joyful, you're basically independent of the good and bad
opinions of the world. You're also fearless and you feel
beneath no one, but you also don't feel superior to anyone,
and you have access to what is called fundamental creativity
because most of our creativity simulated creativity. You know, when
(32:02):
I look at somebody like a Shakespeare or a Mozart
or an Einstein, these guys had fundamental creativity because they
were in love with in the pursuit of reality. Not
in the image of reality, but in the pursuit of reality.
(32:22):
And so if you have to look at examples, you
don't necessarily have to look at spiritual examples because they
are great, you know, Jesus, Buddha, etc.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Roomy. But look at some of.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
The luminaries in the world of art and science, and
you see that they struggled in the same way as
you struggled. You know, Einstein had lots of issues. Yeh okay,
so did all these artists. Van Go was a tortured soul,
but they also had glimpses of truth.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
Wow, very power.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And after this experience we had, I've really been diving
into a lot more work, and it triggered something in
me to think, I do need to know myself more,
and I do need to understand.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
The opinions of the world.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yes, exactly, because we you know, you live in the
public eye. You know, it opens a lot of judgment
and expectations placed on you from other people.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Which I faced, and I was distressed and fought back.
And then I realized, why am I creating turbulence for
myself by exactly doing what I think I should not
be doing.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
So it's all good, and it's interesting that you say that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And after our you know, after we had that moment
and I was able to go home and reflect, I
went on a trip to the middle of the desert,
stayed in a tent, and I practice gratitude of remembering
this beautiful life of lessons and how I want to
(34:15):
show up and how I want to do things differently,
and how I want to be proud, how I want
to raise children, how I want to show up in
this world. And I had this beautiful experience and I
think travel does that to us. Travel is such a
gift in life lessons and you are someone who has
traveled and studied all over the world, and there are
(34:39):
people who travel who close their eyes on road trips,
and I just feel like my chest opens And it's
a such a beautiful learning moment to see other people's culture,
to see how they move, to see how they eat,
to see how they make things. And I'm curious of
(34:59):
how that has impacted your life, your lessons, your teachings,
your mindset, your consciousness.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
What is it about traveling?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Well, it removes the fear of what we call the
other who's different from us, and ultimately realize that actually
they're just like you, just wearing different clothes or different
eating different kinds of cuisine, which, if you're interested, actually
makes in a maximum diversity, makes the experience of life
(35:33):
very joyful. Maximum diversity of experience. Yes, And when we
isolate ourselves through extreme nationalism or extreme religious identity or
ethnic identity, then we live in fear.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
And so travel removes that.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And I do think in this current culture and political landscape,
that is the message.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
It is the message.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Yeah, how do we like, how do we combat that with? Like,
how do we show up in space anything?
Speaker 5 (36:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:08):
You know, you can't fight darkness. You shine the light
and you hope that some people will respond, and actually,
these days it's happening a lot of people have realized
that liberation lies in knowing yourself. That's why it's called
(36:28):
self realization, self knowing, and it's beyond self improvement, but
self improvement is part of it.
Speaker 5 (36:36):
I was just thinking, like you were talking about joy
and I was thinking as myself as a CEO of father,
how do I practice it every day? There's four things
I do. I'm an engineer. I need a compass every morning.
I get up every morning ask myself these four questions, like,
you know, authenticity, I'm authentic. I do I have integrity
to follow on what I'm doing?
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Right?
Speaker 5 (36:56):
Is it got higher purpose? And causing the matter. So
that's kind of the free of reference everything I do.
And at fifty five, I want to like this phase
of my life is giving back be of service if
I do these four things. And I said, okay, I'm
living my life with authenticity, integrity, higher purpose, cause in
the matter. Another thing which I think when I talk
about AI, I really believe. I talk to my engineers
(37:19):
and I tell them because engineers are like doctors today
right the work by being a physician, he took an
oath to help people and save lives. Today an algorithm
is doing that.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yes, right?
Speaker 5 (37:29):
So I always ask them, like you, when you're coding,
we have princip called love and action. Do you embed
in the intention of the software? Attention, appreciation, affection and acceptance?
How do we ground the principles of technology with compassion?
And I think it's not about writing a piece of code.
Everybody can write a piece of code. In fact, AI
(37:50):
can write a better piece of code. Yes, what is
the intention? What is the ethics? What is the integrity
of what you do? Why you do what you do?
Which is very important?
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Wow, very important.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
After this brief message from our sponsors, I want to
ask both of you because this is a reoccurring question
I always ask on this show. We always have this
one defying moment that really changes the landscape of how
we show up, this overall consciousness of I have to
(38:27):
listen to this moment that could really change everything for me.
What was that moment in both of your lives that
really split you wide open, that changed everything for you,
that made you see life differently.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I grew up, as you know, in an environment where
I did not experience trauma zero.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Wow, So I was lucky.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Then I got bamboozled by the American medicans him and
my moment of resurrection was I had intubated a patient
with chronic palmary disease, put a pacemaker in his heart,
(39:18):
and then I walked out of the ico to smoke
a cigarette and I felt totally disgusted. I threw away
my cigarette. I gave up alcohol in that moment, and
I committed my life to service.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
That's a pretty big moment.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yes, and luckily you did that because you really talk
about service.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
That wasn't my bringing up, by the way, Yeah, it
was what I got into as part of my training.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Yeahs.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
You know, in the seventies and late sixth sties, doctors
wearing strathoscopes and white gowns would advertise in medical journals
Lucky Strike is better than Mildboro.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Cigarettes or whatever. We were that first part of the culture.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Well, that's a pretty big, wide open story to really
change everything because you've done so much since that day.
That's a big impact on the legacy of your life,
that's for sure. What about you?
Speaker 5 (40:36):
You know, I think I grew up in a very
I would say strict discipline. My dad are tough cops.
He always said, grown men don't cry, and chivalry encourage.
You got to be your service, you know, you got
to prove that you'll take care of people. So service
has been my underlying theme. You know, It's about how
do you discharge your service with the utmost dedication. So
(40:58):
that's always been my thing. I think I think May
would say life has been a series of moments. But
during one of my motorcycle trips, I think it kind
of when I was actually working with a good friend
of the Park, Shaker Kapoor, an India filmmaker, I was
going through a crossroads of my life and that's when
I actually met the Park. I was on a bike
trip in India in Layla, dark actually thick, same monastery,
(41:19):
climbed up and then typically all these monsters monasteries, you
park the bike and you climb up these days and
you go on top. I meant this monk was very
joyful and very happy, asked a bunch of questions about
all my life and all of that. He looked at
a sign and so I think that's your answer, and
the once I couldn't read it he said, it's basically
a code by law Zoo. It said that which you
(41:40):
had every day creates knowledge, that which you subtract every
day creates wisdom. Son, I think it's time for you
to go towards wisdom, not knowledge. Because I was in
this mode of adding, adding, adding, adding, and became wisdom subtraction.
That's when I I met with the park and the
rest of his But every day I get up. Also,
(42:02):
my practice is what do I subtract? What is one
thing can I forget today? What can I unlearn? And
because there's so much of us learning, we serve this.
Who read this, We read that you had something else.
I try to practice every day subtraction process.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Tell me more about that. I'm curious, like, how give
me an example for me?
Speaker 5 (42:24):
I think with my own kids have been teachers, right,
I've learned that every time we tend, we tend to go.
We tell them I know this, I did that, I've
accomplished this. But for me, every day I try to
go back. Can I say I want to unlearn what
I learned? I unlearned discipline? I actually learned that from
the pak. He says, Actually it's a futile exercise. You know,
(42:45):
because discipline is something I learned unlearned it, but it
was actually coming in the way of my creativity.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
But I should say that for those who are listening
to us, every season of life is appropriate. So you know,
there are seasons in life. Some are winter, you know,
for me it's winter right now, for some it's autumn,
some it's summer, some it's spring. And every season is appropriate.
(43:14):
So don't try to be what you don't feel like being.
You know, and bring presence to every experience and you'll
enjoy the experience.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
When you bring.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Presence to an object, even a microphone starts to look beautiful.
When you bring presence to a person, you experience love. Yes,
and that is all that matters. Love and beauty and
presence are the same thing.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I have to ask this as two fathers. I'm raising
two very young children and they're two and four, and
there's so much of your commonness, like you're so you're
like the way you show up in the world that
(44:04):
I want to learn and take and bring to my children.
What made in your opinion, what made you special? And
what did you want your children to take away most
of you both showing up as dats.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I have to give my wife a lot of credit
for that, because you know, I'm also professional, and I
was writing books and giving lectures. I think children don't
like to be lectured. So the best advice I can
give for children, especially to and four, is play with
them and engage in storytelling and encourage their unique talents.
(44:47):
If your child is mathematics and go to tennis, get
him a tennis coach instead of a mathematician to tutorim.
They'll hire a mathematician to be as accountant. So encourage
not the weakness or try to correct the weakness. Know
(45:09):
their strengths because they all have unique strengths.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
And be playful.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I love that you say that be playful, you have to.
The moment I feel the most joy is when I
just play with my kids, Like when's the last time
we just played at.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Your two year old would like nothing more.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I'm like mama the mons sir, and we just like
you just drop the guard and you just play so freely,
which we lose sight of as adults. We lose sight
of joy and playfulness, and like imagination and creativity. I
(45:50):
love just imagining things with my children. We do ice
cream stands. And I would love strawberry ice cream and
my child children's ability to just imagine things gives me
joy because I can be in it with them.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
In playfulness, there is presence without trying to be present. Yes,
which happens to athletes too in moments of big performance. Right,
you'd forget who you are You're just playing.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Yeah, we should play more as adults.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
We should be playing for best teachers.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
Yes, what about you.
Speaker 5 (46:31):
I think where I am today with my twenty four
year old and my twenty year old is radical honesty.
I'm very transparent that I have don't have all the answers,
but I'm willing to work with them, listen to them,
and co create with them. That's been I think my
biggest blessing. That they don't have a look at me
(46:52):
as they're there, but together we co create, that I
always be there for them, and together we explore. And
I think I learned that you know, you don't get
to use a manual to be a father or a mother, right,
You write the manual as you go. Yeah, And I
think everyone is unique as a fingerprint, and the purpose
(47:13):
of life is to go create an experience. That's been
my learning.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
That's beautiful and thank you both, yeah, both, thank you
for sharing that. And I do think in a time
right now, for so many who are listening, we should
show up more in a state of happiness and joy
and learn what that looks like by learning ourselves and
the process. I think, especially as parents, we're learning in
(47:42):
real time as well while our children are watching. And
sometimes that feels heavy because there are different seasons. There's
seasons of grief, there are seasons of hardship and being
honest about what life is handing us and not pretending
(48:06):
it's okay. And we're in this pursuit of perfection. That's
what I'm having to unlearn in real time is I
have been built to be a machine of perfection and
that just doesn't exist. It's impossible to sustain. I am
(48:26):
not a perfect partner, I am not a perfect mom.
I was not a perfect athlete. I tried, but it's
really interesting just to say I'm in this season and
I just want to be and feel and work through
it all while serving other people through kindness, because kindness
(48:49):
is currency. It is currency, and I wish more people
chose kindness and joy and happiness. We would live in
a better world. But through your work, people are going
to be able to access that, which well.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
I hope all.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
So with that, I I am so grateful, thank you.
I'm grateful for being able to follow you and all
the places I possibly can and learn from you both
well great, really grateful for this opportunity. So before we go,
I would love for you to share where the new
app is Dpak Chopra dot ai and how people can
(49:32):
find find the application and all the work that you
both are doing in the technology space.
Speaker 5 (49:39):
So first of all, just go to Depak dot ai,
which is the website. You don't have to download an app.
I think it's accessible to all. So that's really the
first the QR code which is there, and I think
the promise here is what Deepak says. As an athlete,
you always looking at peak performance. Our vision is peak living.
Everybody deserves peak living and depug vision and the wisdom
(50:01):
of age and the vitality or the biology of youth.
So really having those conversations on Deepak Show, Pradie and
I think it's accessible to all.
Speaker 4 (50:10):
That's lovely. Thank you both so much. Thank you for
being here.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Everyone, Please go check out deepalkshowpro dot ai, the new application,
which is literally you as an AI twin. How cool
is it I get to carry you in my pocket
every single day and ask you questions when I miss you.
Thank you, Thank you both for being here. Thank you
for being so vulnerable. Thank you for sharing how important
(50:37):
the intersection of mindfulness and technology can be because we
can use it for good and it can help a
lot of people. Thanks for being here, everyone, I'll see
you next week on Wide Open with Ashland Harris. Wide
Open with Ashland Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
You can find us on.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronoff, and Lucy Jones.
Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan
(51:19):
and Emily Rudder and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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