June 9, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode, Ashlyn sits down with President of the Human Right Campaign (and friend for life), Kelley Robinson. They talk about Kelley’s secret past as an MMA fighter, organizing the big campaigns to be able to enjoy the small moments, and how to celebrate loudly and proudly this Pride– even when the climate tries to tell us “no.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back, everybody to another episode of Wide Open with
Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I cannot wait to introduce you to this week's guest.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
The one and only President of the Human Rights Campaign,
Kelly Robinson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to the.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Show, my dear, dear friend, my queer president, the one
I turn to for all of this, you know, chaos
going in the world that gives me hope and strength
and accountability.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I adore you. Thank you for coming on. Welcome to
the show, Kelly.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Well. The adoration is totally mutual. It's good to see you,
my friend, and I'm excited to be on the Showry.
I hope not cry.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Well people do, but I want you to know this
is always a safe space and we need to keep
those emotions out of level where that baby is not
going to pop out, because if for those of you
who do not know, Kelly is literally do any day now,
which I can't wait to have another baby in this world.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
The families were growing together, the just the community, just this.
It's such a beautiful thing. It gives me and a
time that feels so dark, it does give me hope. Absolutely,
we keep choosing joy, honey.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
We do. We have to choose joy.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
We keep choosing joy.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
So I wanted to you know, I always talk about
you know, everyone thinks that this show always has to
be so heavy, it actually doesn't.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
It's just who you are behind what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
And honestly, you've checked so many boxes, like you have
such a beautiful story of who you were as a
child and how you were raised. And it's funny because
when I hear you speak, your ability to move people
through words and storytelling is so so magnetic and magnificent.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And I always say it takes me to church. But
your background is that, honey, you are just being you.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
So I want to talk about who Kelly was as
a little kid, because I do think what people don't
realize is so much of who you are is based
on your experience in the church, growing up being you know,
a Catholic woman of faith, and your family run me through.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Who Kelly was as a young girl. Where did it start?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Absolutely, I mean me being a person of faith is
kind of core to who I am, and I always
think about faith in kind of this larger context. It's
about believing in things that you've ever seen, felt, or
experienced before, but that they can be manifested in your life,
and especially as an organizer and an activist, like that's
the whole story. Look, I'm a black queer woman in America.
(02:53):
I've never seen what it looks like for us to
have full rights, for us to be fully respected in
every area of our life. And yet I believe it's
possible if we work together, if we fight together, if
we believe in it. So when I think about faith,
especially in my work, it's bigger than only spirituality or
only you know what, what your religious beliefs are. It's
(03:17):
about believing that in collection with other people, we can
manifest something together.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
But that definitely comes from how I grew up.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
You know, my family's historical story is that they are
They were the first free black family in a town
called Muscatine, Iowa, which.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Is a musketeine baby Musketine scute.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yes, I used to spend every summer there.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
But where I grew up was on the South side
of Chicago, and my people, we were church going folks.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
My mama would say, I don't care what you were
up to.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
On Saturday night, Sunday morning, you about to be up
in those pews. And yeah, and I remember growing up,
you know, we had a pastor that could preach, let
me tell you. And there's one sermon that's always resonated
with me when I think about kind of what I
learned about being a community organizer and a leader. And
we didn't call it that, but we just called it
(04:10):
showing up for your community.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
But now I understand it.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
You know, he would say a lot that folks come
to the space to church he was talking about. But
for me, I think about organizing an advocacy for one
of two reasons. He would say, it's either to find prosperity,
so to do better in your life, to thrive to
you know, prey out your lottery tickets, yes, or you know,
(04:34):
it's for salvation, for deliverance from harm and loss. And
for me growing up on the South Side of Chicago,
seeing what it looked like when kids didn't have enough food,
what we're trying to learn in school, Seeing what it
looked like for kids to have to move out of
their homes and find other places to live because they
came out and their families didn't accept them right. Seeing
even people in my family struggle to find economics success,
(04:58):
to find jobs that would keep them employed and allow
folks to have food on the table, Like this was
really about survival, And it's this idea of survival that's
always really resonated with me because especially right now, like
I feel like we are in.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
A fight for our very lives, for the lots of
our families and friends.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
So I think that for me, like growing up in
the church has always been just kind of core to
to who I am and also creating space for people,
for queer people to reclaim, you know, faith and spirituality
and not be ashamed of it, but make space for
ourselves to design it in ways that support us and
our lives and our families.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I love that, and I you know, I know the
way you move a room because I'm lucky enough to
sit on the board of the HRC, and I get
to watch you in your element, not only when you're
on stage, but the way you show up in the
meetings no one else gets to see. Like every time
I'm in your presence, I just feel like it's like
(06:01):
my body comes out of me in a way. It
is like really a spiritual experience. And I don't know
if anyone's ever told you that, but it's almost like
just letting the guard down and being like, you don't
always have to be the strong one in this moment.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
And I wonder if.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
That strength that you get and you exude so much,
and this confidence comes from that religion and that faith
and that church, and that this legacy of resistance and
progress and protests, like you live it, Kelly, like you
are it.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Oh well, I gotta say ashlyin It's not just me,
it's everyone around us, Like I still appreciate being in
space with you, having you on the Human Rights Campaign
board because you're.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
That person too.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
And I think that when we're surrounded by people that
are authentically themselves, that aren't afraid of the ugly parts
of our lives and our identities, but instead use those
as a foundation to grow to where we need to,
that show vulnerability but also strength, Like that's what makes
this movement great. And I think, you know, finding spaces
(07:12):
where we're not afraid of the hard stuff is so important,
right because I think that there's this feeling that for
especially with some of the issues that we talk about
in the LGBTQ plus community, like, ah, you can't talk
about trans issues unless you know absolutely everything about trans issues,
and that's not the case, like We're all on a
journey of learning together, and I think what I've been
(07:33):
really privileged to be part of and surrounded by is
people that are willing to be on that journey together.
We don't know how far the journey is, we don't
know when the next rest stop is going to be,
but we're in it together. And I feel like my
job is to be a reflection of that, to help
people see the hope, to help people see the strength,
(07:53):
to help people see the power, because I get the
privilege of traveling this country and seeing that that current
just emerge every day, whether I'm talking to like teachers
that are boldly standing up in states that passed like
anti don't say gay or trans bills in their states,
but they're saying, we're still going to be inclusive of
our students, or talking to you know, ERG leaders in
(08:15):
workplaces that are like, I don't care what the Executive
Order and DEI said, We're still going to meet We're
still going to make sure that our company is held
accountable to non discrimination protections. But there's so much happening
in so much courage right now that I don't want
people to lose that.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Even though there's a lot of darkness as well.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
And I feel like that's my that's why I've been
privileged enough to have as my job. But I'm only
able to do it because of the people that I'm
surrounded by.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Like you, Yeah, And I have to think in my
heart and the way I see the world and like
this invisible string and how the universe is it aligns.
I have to be really honest and saying I think
you were built for this moment, this moment of darkness,
Like there's no coincidence that you are the leader. But
(09:04):
what I'll say, in a time that feels so heavy,
it feels so hard, it feels like you want to
question everything. You were destined for this moment. And I
hope you know that too.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Oh, thank you. That means the world, but it's true.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
Yeah, And I just feel like you know, and I
think we talk about this a lot, but like our
task right now is not to look away from the darkness.
Like there is a lot of pain, there's a lot
of struggle, a lot of harm that.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
People are enduring every day.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
The task is to acknowledge it and still be willing
to find the light together because that's there too, and
the light's like living within each of us.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So I'm really I mean that means a lot.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
I don't take what you said lightly, and I do
feel like also, the people that you meet on this
journey you meet for the right reasons. So like something
happened with the university when we met.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
When we met, we were like, we are lifers. I
knew you in another lifetime. Thank god we found each other.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
That's right, that's right, and you are a powerhouse.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So I'm just I'm trying to do my part with you.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
You're trying. You're doing boo.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
And what makes me laugh the most is when I
got to take a deep dive in who you were
growing up.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I found out you were an MMA fighter. I was like,
not only is she our fearless leader, she can whoop
some masks. Are you really wanting to go up against her?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Trainy days? I'm all pregnant stuff. But on the other
side of this, I'll get back into it.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
You have to tell me about this, like what.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
Ah man, Yeah, you know, everybody has their story.
Speaker 5 (10:46):
I was so my entree to kind of organize they
actually started through MMA fighting.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
I was.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
I grew up in Chicago, went to school at the
University of Missouri. And I don't know if you feel
this way, but I feel like if you go one
degree south in the United States of America, like the
racism is just different.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
It's just different.
Speaker 5 (11:05):
Yeah, I went to school down at Missoo, that's what
we called it. And I'm telling you, like, it was
just a different vibe. I mean, you had people putting
cotton balls outside the Black Culture Center, people calling people
of color like me out of our names. And I
had just never experienced the boldness of that sort of
racism in Chicago, you know, like there was an era
(11:29):
of like.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
You know, you're not going to say that somebody's face
in Chicago.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
That it was just it was out of hand in Missouri,
and the university was not really supportive. They said that,
you know, some of us students of color were overreacting.
So I knew, for me, for my mental health, for
my sanity, I needed to take a little break.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
So I ended up leaving school.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
And that's when I got into bartending at the local
pool hall, and that I was doing mma, fighting to
make some cash and get by, and I loved it.
I loved it. I mean, because you know, there's like,
you know, this is being being an athlete. There's like
an equalizer when you're playing sports, right, And there was
something about entering the octagon that like everything was equal,
(12:13):
all the kind of like you know, racism, sexism, homophobia
that didn't matter for the time that we were in
the ring.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
It just didn't matter. And that's what I loved about it.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
They gave me that moment of feeling free in a
way and feeling unburdened.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
But I also knew it wasn't quite sustainable.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
So along that journey, I got a call one day
after I really lost around from the Obama campaign asking
me if I wanted to be an organizer. I was like,
I don't know what that means, but if I don't
have to get punched in the face to make my rent,
I'm willing to give it a try.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
So dang.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
So I got to the Obama campaign and things just
started to click for me. It felt like the first
time I'd actually seen people that were, you know, pissed
off by the things that felt so big, the systems
of racism and sexism and homophobia, but they had something
to do about it. And it wasn't just about Barack Obama.
It was really about what we could achieve together. You know,
(13:11):
people entered the door for the candidate, but they stayed
because of the community that we were building. And it
just helped me to really believe in the power of community,
of what we can do when we work together. But
I'm telling you, I wouldn't be here today without those
experiences in the ring that helped me to also be
unburdened in a way.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Stay tuned, we'll be right back after this.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So when I retired from soccer, I took up boxing.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Oh you're kidding.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And it was so hard.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I was like, yeah, WHOA, Like, I don't think I
can do this, Like this is I couldn't go thirty
seconds and around without my I'm like He's like, keep
your hands up, keep your hands up, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Like, I got noodles. I can't.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Like this is not for me. I mean it was
the hardest. The endurance and strength that it takes. I
don't think people realize until they go a few rounds.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
And I started So when I was a kid, I
did karate for you know, years and years and years
and years, and then when I started to do mma,
I had to pick up the floor part of it, right,
So I studied jiu jitsu and.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
That was like other worldly. It's a mind sport, and
I think.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
That people don't always get that until they get into
the practice of it.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
No, I think that's key in sports in general.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
It is like, yeah, it's a ninety percent is mentality
up here in your brain. It's like, how can you
see plays or scenarios or situations before they happen. Like
I will give you an example. I woke up the
other day feeling anxious. Woke me up right out of
my sleep. And the way my brain works is I
(15:00):
don't sit in that anxious discomfort.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I rethink it.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
And that is purely based on my sport that I
am able to adapt to put a finger on it
and say, oh, I see you.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I've felt you before, and you're not going to take
me down, but I'm going to have.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
To restructure, reframe the way I see it, and make
it fuel me.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Into what I'm doing today.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yes, And the mindset and mentality that sport has given
me had life is just easier for me having those tools.
And I assume that's the same for you and your experience.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Absolutely, And I think that there's a connection.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
I mean for me kind of coming back to my
background the church, like there's a connection between the mind
and the body and the spirit. But even if you
think about that connection between the mind and the body,
that plays out in everything that we do, especially when
you think.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
About policy and politics.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
That's connecting some very heavy stuff about you know, legally
policy and litigation and courts with direct.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Impact on our bodies.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
Yes, we've got to be able to see where those
connections are and to actually strategize our way out of it.
Whether you're in sport or advocacy, means that you have
to have an awareness of both and how they show
up in the world and be able to navigate that,
create strategies, understand the stress points.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I love that and I have never told you this,
but you clearly know. I like sitting on the board
now I get the privilege to speak a lot in
front of big crowds, like when we have events or
when we're doing things, and the amount of anxiety and
stress I get by like doing public speaking. What I
(16:44):
love is now it's pushing me, Like you push me
every event, Like everyone's like, you're so good at this,
You've got this. But inside, I'm like, h, this is
not my normal playing field, and I'm so nervous, and
I love that I still get that adrenaline spike, I
still get that feeling of that pressure.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Moment that really makes or breaks us.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
And I get to do it now and search for
that feeling in a different way, which is so freaking cool.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Ah, that's beautiful and unlocking it.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
What a gift this is to feel this uncomfortable because.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
It matters this much to me, Like it matters. Like
when I would walk out to like to play, I
didn't feel pressure and I didn't feel performance anxiety because
I was like always put life in perspective.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
I'm out here, I'm entertaining. I'm entertaining the masses. I'm
not curing cancer. But when I get on that stage
for the human rights campaign and I need to deliver
and show up for a community that is really really
getting knocked down, it's a whole different pressure and it's
a whole different feeling that does matter. That's maybe someone
(17:59):
in that room and move enough to choose joy, to
choose to stay, to choose themself Like that fucking matters.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Yes, that's huge.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Yeah, And I think that when you're willing to go
on that journey, right, especially to embrace things that make
you feel vulnerable or uncomfortable. There are people in the
room that feel that same way. And whether or not
you say it out loud, that energy transfer is happening.
And when you're able to kind of break through, other
people are with you.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Yes, Like, I don't know if you.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
Saw Corey Booker, he did that twenty five hour speech right,
and that I think again kind of bridges this sort
of like head, head and body kind kind of topic
that we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
So to stand up for twenty five hours.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
I mean that takes a level of endurance, right, just
to be able to do it, let alone speaking and
preach and like he was doing. And at the beginning
of it, you know, a lot of people were like, oh,
we don't quite understand why he's doing this, Like what's happening,
what's going on? But as that twenty four hours twenty
five hours progressed, he got clearer and clearer about what
he was doing. The messages that he was sharing with
(19:07):
people were so dynamic and so moving and so urgent
about the call of the charge that we have right
now to not accept business as usual, and then by
the end of that twenty five hours, he actually broke
strom Thurman's record, who.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Was the.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
Anti civil rights activist who held the largest who held
the previous record for the longest Senate speech. He was
able to beat that racist record through this action. And
even if you didn't understand it, he made a physical
sacrifice that made people feel differently about their own power.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
That's incredible, and it happens.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
In different ways. It happens in sport, it happens in activism.
Apparently it can happen at the United States Senate. But
it's such a powerful thing when we're able to break
through in that way that we can feel it in
our bodies and our souls. And once you feel and
this is the thing that I think is dangerous, right,
once you feel what liberation feels.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Like, you're not willing to go back. You are not
willing to go back. Nope.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And I am with you on that.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And I want more people on that train to see
that power, to tap in and access that inside because
I do. I do. I went to an event for
International Women's Day and it was dvf's event, and Diane
said she had a bunch of women come sit for
(20:32):
a luncheon, and she said, we will not choose anger
for the hate that is being placed on us as people.
We will not choose anger. They want us to be
angry women, but we will not choose anger.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
We will choose joy.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
We will be the resistance of choosing joy will be
the key to show that in a time that feels
so hard, the opposite of.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Fear is love. Yes, love, We have to show up
with love.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
And that is really so much more powerful than just
being angry.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
That's so powerful.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
That's so powerful, And I really like was humbled because
I've been angry. It's hard not to be angry. And
I'm curious, what do you feel about that with a
community right now that you know, with all of the
rhetoric going on and the attacks on the trans community, Like,
(21:34):
what do we choose right now?
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Yeah, Look, I think there's room for every emotion, right Like,
I think that anger does have a place. Look, when
you see what's happening to trans kids, you should be
pissed off. When you see people being disappear who have
legal status in the United States being disappeared from the streets,
you should.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Be pissed off.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
But the problem is that if you only sit in
that anger, it can tear you apart. It doesn't necessarily
destroy the opposition, but it can destroy you first. So
I appreciate what she said around the choices that we
have to make of what emotion you choose to live in,
what you choose.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
To give to the haters and to our opposition.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
But right now, and I think the other choice that
we can really make is around choosing hope, around believing
that something else is possible, and with what I feel
like is happening right now, because we have just seen
I mean, it's been a hell of a year. We've
seen all these executive orders right attacking our community, from
banning gender affirming care to kicking trans people out the military,
(22:40):
to trying to eliminate diversity, equity, and inclusion as though
somehow being diverse and having merit are at odds. We've
seen all of these attacks in our community and our people,
and what they want us to feel is overwhelmed. They
want us to feel like there's nothing you can do
about it. We're moving ahead without you, good luck. You
should just give up.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
And that's a.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
Choice point for me that we have to choose to
believe that we can win together if we fight back,
and then we've got to give ourselves proof, positive details
of how to make it happen. But I think that
a lot of people are sitting in that choice point
of do I hide right, do I try to protect myself,
or do I show up for the movement?
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Do I fight back collectively?
Speaker 5 (23:22):
And the answer has to be choosing to fight, choosing
to hold on to our joy and, like you said,
choosing love in the face of all this fear and
anger and hate.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I just want to tell all of these young kids
who are experiencing so much at school, and that's the
hard part. Kelly is like, yeah, the numbers don't lie,
and you know the statistics more than I do. But
right now, more than ever, like our queer community, our
children are being affected at an alarming rate, with suicide rates,
(23:58):
with harassment meant with abuse, with neglect, being kicked out
of homes. So you know, I do hope that this
podcast is a safe space for a lot of our queer.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Listeners and followers.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
What advice are you giving the younger generation who are
quite scared, who do feel fear, who do feel they
can't live their full true, authentic self in fear of
what might come in any type of retaliation in school
or by their parents, Like, what are we doing about
(24:35):
it to let them know we got them?
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (24:41):
I mean we have to affirm for every kid, especially
our trands and non binary youth, especially our youth of color,
that they are enough just as they are. They are enough,
and they are loved. And I think that what they
actually need to see are more examples of adults like us.
They're showing up to say that un equivocally in public,
(25:01):
out loud and everywhere that we can because it's not
their job to deal with all this nonsense.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
We created it.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
It's our job to fix it for them. And if
I look at the future, there's such an opportunity in
front of us. You know, thirty percent of Generation Z
identify as LGBTQ, many of them identifying as trans and
non binary.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
That is huge, huge.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
I think the greatest threat to our progress is if
they don't feel like they can be fully who they
are and retreat back into the closet, or worse yet,
don't even make it to be adults right because they
don't feel like there's enough love and support for them
to exist in this world. That's our job to make
sure that they can survive and that they can thrive,
and that means that we've got to fight back and
(25:47):
show them examples of what it looks like to do
that and make sure that they've got the resources now
to survive. You know, a lot of the work that
we're doing with the Human Rights Campaign, especially since the election,
has been about separating fact and fiction for folks, helping
to clarify what our rights truly are, and then giving
parents and teachers and families and everyone resources on how
(26:10):
to survive the moment that we're in because it is challenging,
you know, from trying to get access to your healthcare
and medication, to making sure that you've got the right
parentage documents in place for your kids, to you know,
the challenges that folks that are experiencing with IDs and
passports and things like that. There are things that we
(26:32):
have to do right now to reduce the harm, increase
safety for folks, and at the same time fight back
against the systems.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Absolutely, we have to get out there and continue to
fight back. We have to keep showing up, which you
talk about so often, and I would love everyone who
whether you identify as queer or you're an ally, that
is the greatest gift when we walk into those rooms.
I sat in a board meeting with a sixty plus
(27:00):
old gentleman I will not name his name in confidence,
and he literally was like me and my wife just
didn't think it was right for what was going on
in the queer community. So we've dedicated our lives to
be activists.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Like that is it was. It was really hard for
me not to sob in that moment.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yeah, And I was just like, oh my god, there's
so many great allies out there who we need.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yes, we need.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
That, And it was just such a beautiful moment that
I'm so lucky and I want everyone to be able
to be able to experience the feelings in those rooms
because they're magic.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Wow, that's so powerful. And the thing that really sticks
with me, Ashlen, is as hard as these times are
that we're in, with all the darkness that we're experiencing,
everything that we're facing, it is a privilege to be
the one who were called to fight back. Yes, and
especially when I think about the legacy that we are inheriting, right,
(28:08):
I mean, look, we have ancestors that fought back in
this fight when fighting back meant you know, losing your job,
losing your family, and sometimes losing your life, and yet
they fought. I mean, we are the descendants of Marsha P.
Johnson and Sylvia Rivera who fought at Stonewall. We're the
descendants of Harvey milk Right, who showed us what it
(28:29):
looked like for queer people to be in seats of power.
We're the descendants of Judy Shepherd and John Lewis, people
that put their bodies and their lives on the line.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
And now it's our turn.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
And I think, you know, one of the things I
feel like a lot of us are grappling with now,
especially people of our generation, where you know, there was
a moment where equality kind of felt inevitable. You know,
we were complaining about companies pink washing coe parades, and
now you know what, I wouldn't give for a good
pink wash. But I think that we're coming to terms
(29:01):
with the reality that any time you challenge institutions of power,
it's not going to be safe. We're dealing with the
backlash of the progress that we've made. That's just requiring
us to confront the systems differently. But I'm so confident
that we have the tools. I mean, if I think
about everything that folks did to survive the AIDS crisis
(29:22):
in the eighties, we have the tools in our community.
It's just we have to rebuild that muscle memory and
get ready for the fight. And I think that we
are ready for it because we have the hope in
our hearts and we know what's possible. Like I said before,
we've tasted and felt equality and liberation. Yes, it's lane
to take that away from us.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
We'll be right back. You bring up a.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Really interesting point, and it's something I've you know, I'm
always worried about. Is you've now opened your life, you
and Becky, Because Honey, Becky g is the She is
it and you I love her, the first lady of
the queers. She does not She shows up and she
shows out.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
That's my heart right there.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, trust me, I adore her.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
But I'm gonna say this, like you now have opened
your life up to hate. You've opened your life up
to access for everyone, both on both sides of the scale.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Do you worry about your safety?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Are are you you know you're do any day now
with your second child, Like you're a mama bear through and.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Through, Like, how how are you moving in a world.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
And a time where there are so many threats out
there and that there are so many people who are
very extreme when it comes to how they feel about
our community.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Are you worried?
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Yeah, I mean it's not easy. You know.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
When I took this job at the Human Rights Campaign,
Becky and I had a conversation and we said, because
really we were taking the job. Yeah, I mean it's
a family commitment to put yourself into this work, and
there's a lot of sacrifices my family makes to make
it possible.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
But the environment has really changed.
Speaker 5 (31:25):
I talk to some of our folks that've been around
for twenty and thirty years at the Human Rights Campaign,
and you know, we've always gotten calls to the office
from people that disagree with our mission, our mission of
equality right. And they used to call saying, you know,
we're praying for you, we're praying for you. And now
they call and say we're going to kill you. And
(31:45):
the question is is it a valid threat that we
can verify or not. But that's kind of the extremism
that exists in our world. That's what we're fighting back against,
and sometimes it is scary. But again, I kind of
come back to this point that you know, we're dealing
in a moment where we have had an incredible dramatic
increase in our rights, particularly over the last you know,
(32:08):
forty or so years, and the backlash to those rights
is violence, sometimes particularly political violence, and unfortunately that has
always been the story of America if you look at
it over time. So it's our job, you know, one
to do all that we can to increase safety, reduce risk,
especially for me and my family, but to also acknowledge
(32:30):
that this is part of the struggle. We've got to
stamp that out, we got to name it for what
it is, and we got to defeat it to get
to the other side, because we know that there are
more good, reasonable people, even people that disagree with us,
than those extremists that want to promote.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Hate and violence. Yes, so that's kind of also.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
I think part of what we've been doing at HRC
is really driving that accountability, right, But it is, I mean,
it's not easy.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
I'm sure you experienced a lot of the same same stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, and that's the hard you know, you open yourself
up to a lot of scrutiny. You open yourself up
to the media and the tabloids and the news and
the harassment and the stalkers, like it's no joke out there,
like it's it's it's scary. It's scary. And when you
are raising young black and brown children, as you and
(33:22):
I both are, we move differently because of it. And
every I mean last night, I'm not even kidding last night,
I had a dinner and you know, high profile people
have a trans child and they're looking to leave, and
it's just like, we're willing to do anything for the
(33:45):
safety of our children, and we should never be even
put in this position.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
No, absolutely, and even the conversations that we have to
have with our kids, like, you know, my kid does
not check that mailbox.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
I don't know what people are sending in the mail.
You're not gonna check that.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, it's scary.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
I know it is scary.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
So you know, cause you and Becky are both you
both have been in activism, you both met at planned parenthood.
How like, what is it like behind closed doors? How
because you are working twenty four to seven, you're literally
at work right now, and you please don't go into labor,
but at this moment you could go any second. Now
(34:24):
you are, so you're dedicating your life to this mission
and work.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
But what is who's Kelly outside.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Of being you know, the Human Rights Campaign president who
shows up twenty three hours a day for our people? Like,
what what are you doing outside? What are you doing
with the family? How are you showing up for Becky?
Like what's going on?
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (34:49):
Absolutely well, I will say. You know, we fell in
love through the movement. So part of what drew us
together is our passion for social change. I mean, I
think that one of the things that used to do.
I remember one of the first what was the day,
it's the first trip that we took. We went across
the world and we were sitting on a beach reading
each other like Audre.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Lord and Rich called my back and we were just
in it, you know.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
But it's been a real piece of what brings us
together is this aspiration to create a bigger, broader and
better world, to build a bigger weed. And I think
building our family has always been a part of that too.
But at home, Look, I'm Kelly from the block. I
love that I we like to watch reality television. There's
(35:35):
a real emphasis and you probably feel this too, but
like a real emphasis on being present in the moment,
like doing the little stuff, taking the kid to the
park and not looking at the phone. Yes, making like
pancakes at home, but those little moments like because if
I think about why I do this work to fight
(35:55):
for equality, it's not so I can march on the
hill and make speeches at rallies and all that. It's
so that I can have those little moments, right, those
little moments of joy and presence with the family. So
any chance that we get, we're just spending that time
and embracing it and enjoying it because you know, it
literally wasn't possible a couple of generations ago. And yet
(36:16):
we're here, two queer women of color with one and
a half almost two kids, enjoying our little life in
the suburbs.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
But because people thought for that.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Exactly we and it is our job now to stand
on the backs of the people who came before us,
that's right, And this new administration is trying to stand
on our necks. So we have to show up. This
is our time to show up. And I'm telling you,
you fire me up. Like even now I'm getting so
(36:47):
fired up, I'm like.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
But I want to know because this is important and
I asked this all the time to all of our guests.
Wide Open is clearly, you know, being a very authentic
and just peeling back the layers and talking about the
things no one else is willing to talk about.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
With your life and where you've gone and.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
The missions you've just been doing over and over and over.
What was the moment in your life that split you
wide open? Like, what was the breaking point that made it,
that changed it all.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
For you where you were like mm hmm, this is it?
Speaker 4 (37:28):
M man.
Speaker 5 (37:30):
Yeah, Wow, that's such a profound question because you can
think of like the little things over time, but what's
the big the big thing that kind of changed the trajectory.
My mom got really sick in twenty fourteen, and it
was like unclear why or what happened. And at that time,
(37:51):
I was I was working at Plant Parented. I mean
I was, I was busting my tail, I was working hard.
I was all over yeah, the world, doing all a
little sorts of things to fight for justice. And when
she got sick, of course, I went home to take
care of her. In the hospital, and I remember I
was trying to do it all. I was trying to
still kind of like be as attentive as possible to
(38:14):
the movement work and then taking care of her too.
And I remember that there was one night where she
had to be on kind of twenty four hour care
because you know, she was a little bit delirious, and
in order for them to not kind of restrain her
in the bed, you had to have somebody watch her
at all time. So I was doing an overnight shift
(38:34):
of watching her, and she had had she you know,
you have to have kind of an ivy or whatever,
and she had one in her neck at that point.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Oh wow.
Speaker 5 (38:42):
And you know, I had worked all day, was staying
up all night, and I.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
I must have I felt like I blinked.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
And when I woke up, there was a whole team
of people in the room because she had pulled that
ivy out of her neck and was very susceptible to
And I was like, what am I doing? How did
I allow myself not to prioritize the thing that matters
most right now.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Trying to be too much to too many people.
Speaker 5 (39:14):
And after that, I was like, I'm not gonna you know,
I gotta I have my I gotta have my priorities clear.
My priorities are my family. My priorities are protecting my joy.
My priorities are my peace. But it just changed the
way I looked at the world, like I'm not trying
to be everything for everyone.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
I'm trying to.
Speaker 5 (39:32):
Make sure that I that even in this fight for justice,
that I protect my family, right, because that's ultimately what
this fight is about. Yes, And so you know, that
was one of those moments that was really clarifying for me.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
But it's also been like, I think a gift.
Speaker 5 (39:48):
You know, my mom survived and she's doing great now,
and it really helped me to kind of recalibrate the
way I think about the work. But it's actually not
when you do movement work, you're not helping anybody by
sacrificing all of yourself to the movement, right.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
What you actually want to do is.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
Give the movement the best of you and then also
be prepared to embrace the joy that you are fighting for.
Because the joy isn't just the outcome that we hope
to get like after we die. Right now, it's a
strategy and how we continue to build towards getting there. Yes,
So it was a real life lesson in learning for
me that you know, I really hold on to.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
I love that. Thank you for sharing that so so powerful.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
And you know with life right now, and you're about
to have little girl, right or bringing a girl, that's good.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
What's what's next for you?
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Like, what's what's coming up besides a little rest because
I know, damn well, you're not going to rest that
long because I know you better than that.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Yeah, what what's coming up? What's what's on the radar?
What's next for us?
Speaker 4 (40:56):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (40:57):
Well, I am excited about, you know, all the development
with my family, which I'm just thrilled about. And it's
all about again, like not letting this world take away
our joy and not letting it stop us from continuing
what we've done for generations of building our families and
building our communities. And then you know, on the front
of protecting our people. You know, there's a few things
(41:18):
we got to do. I think that we all have
to be the truth tellers right now. There are so
much misinformation and lies that are spreading. We have to
be the truth tellers. I think that means helping to
separate fact from fiction and people to understand their rights
and the resources they have to protect their rights. But
it also means refusing to be silent. You know, you
(41:39):
don't have to know it all to know that discrimination
is wrong. You don't have to know it all to
know that if a kid's getting bullied because they're queer,
trends and it's not right. But we have to be
the people that are not willing to be silent bystanders,
but are going to show up and speak out, whether
it's at school or at work or wherever you are.
(41:59):
And we've got to show up. I mean, look, Pride
this year I think is going to be really important.
We need to make sure that people aren't staying home
out of fear, but they are showing up because we
have We have power in our presence, our visibility and
seeing numbers are bigger than ever they ever have been before.
Will help a queer kid in Kansas it's not out yet,
(42:21):
know that there are people that will accept them when
they are. That's what we have to do. And then
I think, you know, the last thing is kind of
more of a soul thing, but we've got to believe
that we can get to the other side of this,
But there are more good people in this world than
the extremists that you see that are attacking us. I mean,
in this last election, thirty six per thirty six percent.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Of people did not vote.
Speaker 5 (42:45):
If we get a fraction of them to feel inspired
and engaged right.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Now, we win. You know.
Speaker 5 (42:53):
So this is not a situation where we're like dramatically
in the wrong. Well, we're dramatically out of power and
without hope. No, we have hope, and we certainly have power,
but we've got to use that and we've got to.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
Believe in it.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah, And I am a very firm believer in speaking
truth into existence. And the thing that keeps me up
every night is, you know, the conversation around letting trans
kids participate in sports, like I lose too much damn
sleep over this. And for a child who was so
(43:28):
troubled in their home, I am telling you that the
single handed thing that saved my damn life was my
team because I felt a type of belonging I did
not feel at home. I felt a safety that I
did not feel at home, and it was a good
(43:49):
outlet for me to understand life's fucking lessons like I
am who I am because of the sports I played,
and what I learned about leadership, what I'd learned about adapting,
the tools I gained to show up in groups and
different like holding each other accountable and fighting as a collective.
(44:13):
There's so many great things I learned, But the biggest
thing it.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Saved my life. And how how are we because it
kept me off the streets.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
And I'm a person who started doing drugs in sixth
grade and my coach was like, what are we doing here?
Like it was my support system and it held me
accountable in the way I showed up for the group.
And how are we going to take that away from kids?
How are we going to take that experience away from
these young children just wanting a place to play, to belong.
Speaker 5 (44:47):
Yeah, And that's that's what people need to be hearing, right.
I Mean, we all want sports to be fair, we
want students to be safe, We want young people to
have all the opportunities that you just talked about.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
It's critical important.
Speaker 5 (45:00):
It's not only life changing, it's life saving, like you said.
And I can even make space for people that don't
understand everything right, Like some people have legitimate questions about well,
what does participation look like, what does it mean? Maybe
they don't know a transgender, non binary person, right, and
they want those questions answered. But what I am clear
(45:22):
about is that the answer cannot be that we are
going to exclude kids from.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
All the benefits of sport. We just can't do it.
And especially when you look towards this future generation.
Speaker 5 (45:32):
I think I said earlier, thirty percent of Generation Z
identify as LGBTQ, A lot of them.
Speaker 4 (45:38):
Identify as non binary.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
It's not a viable solution to only say, well, we're
just going to exclude, and in fact, even more so
than non viable, it's actually dangerous. I mean, how many
times have we also seen, just over the course of
history that if you don't fit into somebody's idea or
box about what gender should look like, especially for for women,
(46:00):
you are policed, they.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Come after you. I mean, I just think about.
Speaker 5 (46:05):
The way the you know, the sojournal truth of it
all for black women, right, Ain't I a woman We
had to go through so much to prove our womanhood
as cist gender women. Or I think about the athletes
like the Algerian boxer right, who was a cisgender woman
who is targeted by anti trans attacks or Britney Griner
is another example. So let's also be clear that the
(46:26):
ways that these bills are moving are not only dangerous
to the fundamental just truth that kids should be able
to play sports and get all the benefits from those sports.
I mean, either're targeting kids as young as four and
five years old, but also that the ways that these
bills are created, they actually expose cisgender women to high
(46:46):
levels of scrutiny, interrogation, possible examinations that look, I don't
we don't need to have any of that happening. So
I think that this is one of those spaces where
authentic conversations are needed, Yes, where we need to be
bringing folks into the conversation discussion. We don't have to
leave with a solution, but we do have to know
(47:08):
that excluding kids and using kids as political chips like
they are right now, hmm, that's not.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Okay, Yeah, it's not, and it's not.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
And we need to envision and pave the way for
a world in which we're all treated equal, the freedom
to live our life and our truth without fear, without judgment,
without harassment under the law. Like we have to keep
doing this, and that's what you're doing as the president.
You are showing up in a way that is so impactful.
(47:40):
You are going to leave an incredible legacy behind based
on your life's work and choosing it because it is
a choice, and you choose it every single day, every moment.
And I am so grateful for those choices because to
call you our pre I have to keep calling it's
(48:01):
you are my president. I'm not seeing the world any
other way. But I'm so grateful that you made these
choices to show up in this way for the human
Rights campaign, because I do think this is the moment.
It is a define It's a defining moment in our life,
and for us to be a part of it, to
(48:22):
be pivotal, to be important characters in this story, I'm
I'm humbled by it and I'm ready for the opportunity
every single day. And I'm grateful for our friendship and
for you coming on and being a part of my
show Wide Open. But I know I have you as
a sister in my life, and that to me is
what it's about.
Speaker 4 (48:42):
Ah. I love you, Ashlyn Harris. I know I'm not
alone in this.
Speaker 5 (48:46):
We are doing this together, and I'm reminded that Cornell
West quote, justice is what love looks like in public.
I love you and I love that your commitment to
justice shows up in these ways.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Thanks Kelly, thanks for being on our show, and can
you tell everyone where they can find you and if
they want to sign up to be volunteers for the HRC.
I want everyone to hear that again because it is
so important and we need everyone right now. We are
in the fight of our lives for our generation and
we have to keep showing up absolutely.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
Look, if folks want to get involved, you can text
action to four seven two four seven two. You can
visit us at HRC dot org, or find us on
the internets. I'm at Kelly J. Robinson on Instagram and
all across the webs, and we're at HRC and at
Human Rights Campaign.
Speaker 4 (49:33):
But join us.
Speaker 5 (49:34):
We need you in this movement, We need you in
this fight, and together we are going to get free.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yes that part.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Thank you again for everyone tuning in to another episode
of Wide Open. We'll see you next week. Wide Open
with Ashland Harris is an iheartwomen's sports production. You can
find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts. Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo,
(50:03):
Emily Maronoff, and Lucy Jones. Production assistants from Malia Aguidello.
Our executive producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.
Our editors are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder and I'm
Your Host Ashlyn Harris
Welcome back, everybody to another episode of Wide Open with
Ashlyn Harris.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I cannot wait to introduce you to this week's guest.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
The one and only President of the Human Rights Campaign,
Kelly Robinson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to the.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Show, my dear, dear friend, my queer president, the one
I turn to for all of this, you know, chaos
going in the world that gives me hope and strength
and accountability.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I adore you. Thank you for coming on. Welcome to
the show, Kelly.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Well. The adoration is totally mutual. It's good to see you,
my friend, and I'm excited to be on the Showry.
I hope not cry.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Well people do, but I want you to know this
is always a safe space and we need to keep
those emotions out of level where that baby is not
going to pop out, because if for those of you
who do not know, Kelly is literally do any day now,
which I can't wait to have another baby in this world.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
The families were growing together, the just the community, just this.
It's such a beautiful thing. It gives me and a
time that feels so dark, it does give me hope. Absolutely,
we keep choosing joy, honey.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
We do. We have to choose joy.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
We keep choosing joy.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
So I wanted to you know, I always talk about
you know, everyone thinks that this show always has to
be so heavy, it actually doesn't.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
It's just who you are behind what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
And honestly, you've checked so many boxes, like you have
such a beautiful story of who you were as a
child and how you were raised. And it's funny because
when I hear you speak, your ability to move people
through words and storytelling is so so magnetic and magnificent.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And I always say it takes me to church. But
your background is that, honey, you are just being you.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
So I want to talk about who Kelly was as
a little kid, because I do think what people don't
realize is so much of who you are is based
on your experience in the church, growing up being you know,
a Catholic woman of faith, and your family run me through.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Who Kelly was as a young girl. Where did it start?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Absolutely, I mean me being a person of faith is
kind of core to who I am, and I always
think about faith in kind of this larger context. It's
about believing in things that you've ever seen, felt, or
experienced before, but that they can be manifested in your life,
and especially as an organizer and an activist, like that's
the whole story. Look, I'm a black queer woman in America.
(02:53):
I've never seen what it looks like for us to
have full rights, for us to be fully respected in
every area of our life. And yet I believe it's
possible if we work together, if we fight together, if
we believe in it. So when I think about faith,
especially in my work, it's bigger than only spirituality or
only you know what, what your religious beliefs are. It's
(03:17):
about believing that in collection with other people, we can
manifest something together.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
But that definitely comes from how I grew up.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
You know, my family's historical story is that they are
They were the first free black family in a town
called Muscatine, Iowa, which.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Is a musketeine baby Musketine scute.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yes, I used to spend every summer there.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
But where I grew up was on the South side
of Chicago, and my people, we were church going folks.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
My mama would say, I don't care what you were
up to.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
On Saturday night, Sunday morning, you about to be up
in those pews. And yeah, and I remember growing up,
you know, we had a pastor that could preach, let
me tell you. And there's one sermon that's always resonated
with me when I think about kind of what I
learned about being a community organizer and a leader. And
we didn't call it that, but we just called it
(04:10):
showing up for your community.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
But now I understand it.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
You know, he would say a lot that folks come
to the space to church he was talking about. But
for me, I think about organizing an advocacy for one
of two reasons. He would say, it's either to find prosperity,
so to do better in your life, to thrive to
you know, prey out your lottery tickets, yes, or you know,
(04:34):
it's for salvation, for deliverance from harm and loss. And
for me growing up on the South Side of Chicago,
seeing what it looked like when kids didn't have enough food,
what we're trying to learn in school, Seeing what it
looked like for kids to have to move out of
their homes and find other places to live because they
came out and their families didn't accept them right. Seeing
even people in my family struggle to find economics success,
(04:58):
to find jobs that would keep them employed and allow
folks to have food on the table, Like this was
really about survival, And it's this idea of survival that's
always really resonated with me because especially right now, like
I feel like we are in.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
A fight for our very lives, for the lots of
our families and friends.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
So I think that for me, like growing up in
the church has always been just kind of core to
to who I am and also creating space for people,
for queer people to reclaim, you know, faith and spirituality
and not be ashamed of it, but make space for
ourselves to design it in ways that support us and
our lives and our families.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I love that, and I you know, I know the
way you move a room because I'm lucky enough to
sit on the board of the HRC, and I get
to watch you in your element, not only when you're
on stage, but the way you show up in the
meetings no one else gets to see. Like every time
I'm in your presence, I just feel like it's like
(06:01):
my body comes out of me in a way. It
is like really a spiritual experience. And I don't know
if anyone's ever told you that, but it's almost like
just letting the guard down and being like, you don't
always have to be the strong one in this moment.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
And I wonder if.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
That strength that you get and you exude so much,
and this confidence comes from that religion and that faith
and that church, and that this legacy of resistance and
progress and protests, like you live it, Kelly, like you
are it.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Oh well, I gotta say ashlyin It's not just me,
it's everyone around us, Like I still appreciate being in
space with you, having you on the Human Rights Campaign
board because you're.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
That person too.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
And I think that when we're surrounded by people that
are authentically themselves, that aren't afraid of the ugly parts
of our lives and our identities, but instead use those
as a foundation to grow to where we need to,
that show vulnerability but also strength, Like that's what makes
this movement great. And I think, you know, finding spaces
(07:12):
where we're not afraid of the hard stuff is so important,
right because I think that there's this feeling that for
especially with some of the issues that we talk about
in the LGBTQ plus community, like, ah, you can't talk
about trans issues unless you know absolutely everything about trans issues,
and that's not the case, like We're all on a
journey of learning together, and I think what I've been
(07:33):
really privileged to be part of and surrounded by is
people that are willing to be on that journey together.
We don't know how far the journey is, we don't
know when the next rest stop is going to be,
but we're in it together. And I feel like my
job is to be a reflection of that, to help
people see the hope, to help people see the strength,
(07:53):
to help people see the power, because I get the
privilege of traveling this country and seeing that that current
just emerge every day, whether I'm talking to like teachers
that are boldly standing up in states that passed like
anti don't say gay or trans bills in their states,
but they're saying, we're still going to be inclusive of
our students, or talking to you know, ERG leaders in
(08:15):
workplaces that are like, I don't care what the Executive
Order and DEI said, We're still going to meet We're
still going to make sure that our company is held
accountable to non discrimination protections. But there's so much happening
in so much courage right now that I don't want
people to lose that.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Even though there's a lot of darkness as well.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
And I feel like that's my that's why I've been
privileged enough to have as my job. But I'm only
able to do it because of the people that I'm
surrounded by.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Like you, Yeah, And I have to think in my
heart and the way I see the world and like
this invisible string and how the universe is it aligns.
I have to be really honest and saying I think
you were built for this moment, this moment of darkness,
Like there's no coincidence that you are the leader. But
(09:04):
what I'll say, in a time that feels so heavy,
it feels so hard, it feels like you want to
question everything. You were destined for this moment. And I
hope you know that too.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Oh, thank you. That means the world, but it's true.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
Yeah, And I just feel like you know, and I
think we talk about this a lot, but like our
task right now is not to look away from the darkness.
Like there is a lot of pain, there's a lot
of struggle, a lot of harm that.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
People are enduring every day.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
The task is to acknowledge it and still be willing
to find the light together because that's there too, and
the light's like living within each of us.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So I'm really I mean that means a lot.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
I don't take what you said lightly, and I do
feel like also, the people that you meet on this
journey you meet for the right reasons. So like something
happened with the university when we met.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
When we met, we were like, we are lifers. I
knew you in another lifetime. Thank god we found each other.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
That's right, that's right, and you are a powerhouse.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So I'm just I'm trying to do my part with you.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
You're trying. You're doing boo.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
And what makes me laugh the most is when I
got to take a deep dive in who you were
growing up.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I found out you were an MMA fighter. I was like,
not only is she our fearless leader, she can whoop
some masks. Are you really wanting to go up against her?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Trainy days? I'm all pregnant stuff. But on the other
side of this, I'll get back into it.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
You have to tell me about this, like what.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
Ah man, Yeah, you know, everybody has their story.
Speaker 5 (10:46):
I was so my entree to kind of organize they
actually started through MMA fighting.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
I was.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
I grew up in Chicago, went to school at the
University of Missouri. And I don't know if you feel
this way, but I feel like if you go one
degree south in the United States of America, like the
racism is just different.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
It's just different.
Speaker 5 (11:05):
Yeah, I went to school down at Missoo, that's what
we called it. And I'm telling you, like, it was
just a different vibe. I mean, you had people putting
cotton balls outside the Black Culture Center, people calling people
of color like me out of our names. And I
had just never experienced the boldness of that sort of
racism in Chicago, you know, like there was an era
(11:29):
of like.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
You know, you're not going to say that somebody's face
in Chicago.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
That it was just it was out of hand in Missouri,
and the university was not really supportive. They said that,
you know, some of us students of color were overreacting.
So I knew, for me, for my mental health, for
my sanity, I needed to take a little break.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
So I ended up leaving school.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
And that's when I got into bartending at the local
pool hall, and that I was doing mma, fighting to
make some cash and get by, and I loved it.
I loved it. I mean, because you know, there's like,
you know, this is being being an athlete. There's like
an equalizer when you're playing sports, right, And there was
something about entering the octagon that like everything was equal,
(12:13):
all the kind of like you know, racism, sexism, homophobia
that didn't matter for the time that we were in
the ring.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
It just didn't matter. And that's what I loved about it.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
They gave me that moment of feeling free in a
way and feeling unburdened.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
But I also knew it wasn't quite sustainable.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
So along that journey, I got a call one day
after I really lost around from the Obama campaign asking
me if I wanted to be an organizer. I was like,
I don't know what that means, but if I don't
have to get punched in the face to make my rent,
I'm willing to give it a try.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
So dang.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
So I got to the Obama campaign and things just
started to click for me. It felt like the first
time I'd actually seen people that were, you know, pissed
off by the things that felt so big, the systems
of racism and sexism and homophobia, but they had something
to do about it. And it wasn't just about Barack Obama.
It was really about what we could achieve together. You know,
(13:11):
people entered the door for the candidate, but they stayed
because of the community that we were building. And it
just helped me to really believe in the power of community,
of what we can do when we work together. But
I'm telling you, I wouldn't be here today without those
experiences in the ring that helped me to also be
unburdened in a way.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Stay tuned, we'll be right back after this.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So when I retired from soccer, I took up boxing.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Oh you're kidding.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And it was so hard.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I was like, yeah, WHOA, Like, I don't think I
can do this, Like this is I couldn't go thirty
seconds and around without my I'm like He's like, keep
your hands up, keep your hands up, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Like, I got noodles. I can't.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Like this is not for me. I mean it was
the hardest. The endurance and strength that it takes. I
don't think people realize until they go a few rounds.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
And I started So when I was a kid, I
did karate for you know, years and years and years
and years, and then when I started to do mma,
I had to pick up the floor part of it, right,
So I studied jiu jitsu and.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
That was like other worldly. It's a mind sport, and
I think.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
That people don't always get that until they get into
the practice of it.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
No, I think that's key in sports in general.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
It is like, yeah, it's a ninety percent is mentality
up here in your brain. It's like, how can you
see plays or scenarios or situations before they happen. Like
I will give you an example. I woke up the
other day feeling anxious. Woke me up right out of
my sleep. And the way my brain works is I
(15:00):
don't sit in that anxious discomfort.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I rethink it.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
And that is purely based on my sport that I
am able to adapt to put a finger on it
and say, oh, I see you.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I've felt you before, and you're not going to take
me down, but I'm going to have.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
To restructure, reframe the way I see it, and make
it fuel me.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Into what I'm doing today.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yes, And the mindset and mentality that sport has given
me had life is just easier for me having those tools.
And I assume that's the same for you and your experience.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Absolutely, And I think that there's a connection.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
I mean for me kind of coming back to my
background the church, like there's a connection between the mind
and the body and the spirit. But even if you
think about that connection between the mind and the body,
that plays out in everything that we do, especially when
you think.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
About policy and politics.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
That's connecting some very heavy stuff about you know, legally
policy and litigation and courts with direct.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Impact on our bodies.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
Yes, we've got to be able to see where those
connections are and to actually strategize our way out of it.
Whether you're in sport or advocacy, means that you have
to have an awareness of both and how they show
up in the world and be able to navigate that,
create strategies, understand the stress points.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I love that and I have never told you this,
but you clearly know. I like sitting on the board
now I get the privilege to speak a lot in
front of big crowds, like when we have events or
when we're doing things, and the amount of anxiety and
stress I get by like doing public speaking. What I
(16:44):
love is now it's pushing me, Like you push me
every event, Like everyone's like, you're so good at this,
You've got this. But inside, I'm like, h, this is
not my normal playing field, and I'm so nervous, and
I love that I still get that adrenaline spike, I
still get that feeling of that pressure.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Moment that really makes or breaks us.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
And I get to do it now and search for
that feeling in a different way, which is so freaking cool.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Ah, that's beautiful and unlocking it.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
What a gift this is to feel this uncomfortable because.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
It matters this much to me, Like it matters. Like
when I would walk out to like to play, I
didn't feel pressure and I didn't feel performance anxiety because
I was like always put life in perspective.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
I'm out here, I'm entertaining. I'm entertaining the masses. I'm
not curing cancer. But when I get on that stage
for the human rights campaign and I need to deliver
and show up for a community that is really really
getting knocked down, it's a whole different pressure and it's
a whole different feeling that does matter. That's maybe someone
(17:59):
in that room and move enough to choose joy, to
choose to stay, to choose themself Like that fucking matters.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Yes, that's huge.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Yeah, And I think that when you're willing to go
on that journey, right, especially to embrace things that make
you feel vulnerable or uncomfortable. There are people in the
room that feel that same way. And whether or not
you say it out loud, that energy transfer is happening.
And when you're able to kind of break through, other
people are with you.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Yes, Like, I don't know if you.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
Saw Corey Booker, he did that twenty five hour speech right,
and that I think again kind of bridges this sort
of like head, head and body kind kind of topic
that we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
So to stand up for twenty five hours.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
I mean that takes a level of endurance, right, just
to be able to do it, let alone speaking and
preach and like he was doing. And at the beginning
of it, you know, a lot of people were like, oh,
we don't quite understand why he's doing this, Like what's happening,
what's going on? But as that twenty four hours twenty
five hours progressed, he got clearer and clearer about what
he was doing. The messages that he was sharing with
(19:07):
people were so dynamic and so moving and so urgent
about the call of the charge that we have right
now to not accept business as usual, and then by
the end of that twenty five hours, he actually broke
strom Thurman's record, who.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Was the.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
Anti civil rights activist who held the largest who held
the previous record for the longest Senate speech. He was
able to beat that racist record through this action. And
even if you didn't understand it, he made a physical
sacrifice that made people feel differently about their own power.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
That's incredible, and it happens.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
In different ways. It happens in sport, it happens in activism.
Apparently it can happen at the United States Senate. But
it's such a powerful thing when we're able to break
through in that way that we can feel it in
our bodies and our souls. And once you feel and
this is the thing that I think is dangerous, right,
once you feel what liberation feels.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Like, you're not willing to go back. You are not
willing to go back. Nope.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And I am with you on that.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And I want more people on that train to see
that power, to tap in and access that inside because
I do. I do. I went to an event for
International Women's Day and it was dvf's event, and Diane
said she had a bunch of women come sit for
(20:32):
a luncheon, and she said, we will not choose anger
for the hate that is being placed on us as people.
We will not choose anger. They want us to be
angry women, but we will not choose anger.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
We will choose joy.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
We will be the resistance of choosing joy will be
the key to show that in a time that feels
so hard, the opposite of.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Fear is love. Yes, love, We have to show up
with love.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
And that is really so much more powerful than just
being angry.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
That's so powerful.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
That's so powerful, And I really like was humbled because
I've been angry. It's hard not to be angry. And
I'm curious, what do you feel about that with a
community right now that you know, with all of the
rhetoric going on and the attacks on the trans community, Like,
(21:34):
what do we choose right now?
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Yeah, Look, I think there's room for every emotion, right Like,
I think that anger does have a place. Look, when
you see what's happening to trans kids, you should be
pissed off. When you see people being disappear who have
legal status in the United States being disappeared from the streets,
you should.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Be pissed off.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
But the problem is that if you only sit in
that anger, it can tear you apart. It doesn't necessarily
destroy the opposition, but it can destroy you first. So
I appreciate what she said around the choices that we
have to make of what emotion you choose to live in,
what you choose.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
To give to the haters and to our opposition.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
But right now, and I think the other choice that
we can really make is around choosing hope, around believing
that something else is possible, and with what I feel
like is happening right now, because we have just seen
I mean, it's been a hell of a year. We've
seen all these executive orders right attacking our community, from
banning gender affirming care to kicking trans people out the military,
(22:40):
to trying to eliminate diversity, equity, and inclusion as though
somehow being diverse and having merit are at odds. We've
seen all of these attacks in our community and our people,
and what they want us to feel is overwhelmed. They
want us to feel like there's nothing you can do
about it. We're moving ahead without you, good luck. You
should just give up.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
And that's a.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
Choice point for me that we have to choose to
believe that we can win together if we fight back,
and then we've got to give ourselves proof, positive details
of how to make it happen. But I think that
a lot of people are sitting in that choice point
of do I hide right, do I try to protect myself,
or do I show up for the movement?
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Do I fight back collectively?
Speaker 5 (23:22):
And the answer has to be choosing to fight, choosing
to hold on to our joy and, like you said,
choosing love in the face of all this fear and
anger and hate.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I just want to tell all of these young kids
who are experiencing so much at school, and that's the
hard part. Kelly is like, yeah, the numbers don't lie,
and you know the statistics more than I do. But
right now, more than ever, like our queer community, our
children are being affected at an alarming rate, with suicide rates,
(23:58):
with harassment meant with abuse, with neglect, being kicked out
of homes. So you know, I do hope that this
podcast is a safe space for a lot of our queer.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Listeners and followers.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
What advice are you giving the younger generation who are
quite scared, who do feel fear, who do feel they
can't live their full true, authentic self in fear of
what might come in any type of retaliation in school
or by their parents, Like, what are we doing about
(24:35):
it to let them know we got them?
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (24:41):
I mean we have to affirm for every kid, especially
our trands and non binary youth, especially our youth of color,
that they are enough just as they are. They are enough,
and they are loved. And I think that what they
actually need to see are more examples of adults like us.
They're showing up to say that un equivocally in public,
(25:01):
out loud and everywhere that we can because it's not
their job to deal with all this nonsense.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
We created it.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
It's our job to fix it for them. And if
I look at the future, there's such an opportunity in
front of us. You know, thirty percent of Generation Z
identify as LGBTQ, many of them identifying as trans and
non binary.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
That is huge, huge.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
I think the greatest threat to our progress is if
they don't feel like they can be fully who they
are and retreat back into the closet, or worse yet,
don't even make it to be adults right because they
don't feel like there's enough love and support for them
to exist in this world. That's our job to make
sure that they can survive and that they can thrive,
and that means that we've got to fight back and
(25:47):
show them examples of what it looks like to do
that and make sure that they've got the resources now
to survive. You know, a lot of the work that
we're doing with the Human Rights Campaign, especially since the election,
has been about separating fact and fiction for folks, helping
to clarify what our rights truly are, and then giving
parents and teachers and families and everyone resources on how
(26:10):
to survive the moment that we're in because it is challenging,
you know, from trying to get access to your healthcare
and medication, to making sure that you've got the right
parentage documents in place for your kids, to you know,
the challenges that folks that are experiencing with IDs and
passports and things like that. There are things that we
(26:32):
have to do right now to reduce the harm, increase
safety for folks, and at the same time fight back
against the systems.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Absolutely, we have to get out there and continue to
fight back. We have to keep showing up, which you
talk about so often, and I would love everyone who
whether you identify as queer or you're an ally, that
is the greatest gift when we walk into those rooms.
I sat in a board meeting with a sixty plus
(27:00):
old gentleman I will not name his name in confidence,
and he literally was like me and my wife just
didn't think it was right for what was going on
in the queer community. So we've dedicated our lives to
be activists.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Like that is it was. It was really hard for
me not to sob in that moment.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yeah, And I was just like, oh my god, there's
so many great allies out there who we need.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yes, we need.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
That, And it was just such a beautiful moment that
I'm so lucky and I want everyone to be able
to be able to experience the feelings in those rooms
because they're magic.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Wow, that's so powerful. And the thing that really sticks
with me, Ashlen, is as hard as these times are
that we're in, with all the darkness that we're experiencing,
everything that we're facing, it is a privilege to be
the one who were called to fight back. Yes, and
especially when I think about the legacy that we are inheriting, right,
(28:08):
I mean, look, we have ancestors that fought back in
this fight when fighting back meant you know, losing your job,
losing your family, and sometimes losing your life, and yet
they fought. I mean, we are the descendants of Marsha P.
Johnson and Sylvia Rivera who fought at Stonewall. We're the
descendants of Harvey milk Right, who showed us what it
(28:29):
looked like for queer people to be in seats of power.
We're the descendants of Judy Shepherd and John Lewis, people
that put their bodies and their lives on the line.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
And now it's our turn.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
And I think, you know, one of the things I
feel like a lot of us are grappling with now,
especially people of our generation, where you know, there was
a moment where equality kind of felt inevitable. You know,
we were complaining about companies pink washing coe parades, and
now you know what, I wouldn't give for a good
pink wash. But I think that we're coming to terms
(29:01):
with the reality that any time you challenge institutions of power,
it's not going to be safe. We're dealing with the
backlash of the progress that we've made. That's just requiring
us to confront the systems differently. But I'm so confident
that we have the tools. I mean, if I think
about everything that folks did to survive the AIDS crisis
(29:22):
in the eighties, we have the tools in our community.
It's just we have to rebuild that muscle memory and
get ready for the fight. And I think that we
are ready for it because we have the hope in
our hearts and we know what's possible. Like I said before,
we've tasted and felt equality and liberation. Yes, it's lane
to take that away from us.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
This is wide open and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.
We'll be right back. You bring up a.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Really interesting point, and it's something I've you know, I'm
always worried about. Is you've now opened your life, you
and Becky, Because Honey, Becky g is the She is
it and you I love her, the first lady of
the queers. She does not She shows up and she
shows out.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
That's my heart right there.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, trust me, I adore her.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
But I'm gonna say this, like you now have opened
your life up to hate. You've opened your life up
to access for everyone, both on both sides of the scale.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Do you worry about your safety?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Are are you you know you're do any day now
with your second child, Like you're a mama bear through and.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Through, Like, how how are you moving in a world.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
And a time where there are so many threats out
there and that there are so many people who are
very extreme when it comes to how they feel about
our community.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Are you worried?
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Yeah, I mean it's not easy. You know.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
When I took this job at the Human Rights Campaign,
Becky and I had a conversation and we said, because
really we were taking the job. Yeah, I mean it's
a family commitment to put yourself into this work, and
there's a lot of sacrifices my family makes to make
it possible.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
But the environment has really changed.
Speaker 5 (31:25):
I talk to some of our folks that've been around
for twenty and thirty years at the Human Rights Campaign,
and you know, we've always gotten calls to the office
from people that disagree with our mission, our mission of
equality right. And they used to call saying, you know,
we're praying for you, we're praying for you. And now
they call and say we're going to kill you. And
(31:45):
the question is is it a valid threat that we
can verify or not. But that's kind of the extremism
that exists in our world. That's what we're fighting back against,
and sometimes it is scary. But again, I kind of
come back to this point that you know, we're dealing
in a moment where we have had an incredible dramatic
increase in our rights, particularly over the last you know,
(32:08):
forty or so years, and the backlash to those rights
is violence, sometimes particularly political violence, and unfortunately that has
always been the story of America if you look at
it over time. So it's our job, you know, one
to do all that we can to increase safety, reduce risk,
especially for me and my family, but to also acknowledge
(32:30):
that this is part of the struggle. We've got to
stamp that out, we got to name it for what
it is, and we got to defeat it to get
to the other side, because we know that there are
more good, reasonable people, even people that disagree with us,
than those extremists that want to promote.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Hate and violence. Yes, so that's kind of also.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
I think part of what we've been doing at HRC
is really driving that accountability, right, But it is, I mean,
it's not easy.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
I'm sure you experienced a lot of the same same stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, and that's the hard you know, you open yourself
up to a lot of scrutiny. You open yourself up
to the media and the tabloids and the news and
the harassment and the stalkers, like it's no joke out there,
like it's it's it's scary. It's scary. And when you
are raising young black and brown children, as you and
(33:22):
I both are, we move differently because of it. And
every I mean last night, I'm not even kidding last night,
I had a dinner and you know, high profile people
have a trans child and they're looking to leave, and
it's just like, we're willing to do anything for the
(33:45):
safety of our children, and we should never be even
put in this position.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
No, absolutely, and even the conversations that we have to
have with our kids, like, you know, my kid does
not check that mailbox.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
I don't know what people are sending in the mail.
You're not gonna check that.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, it's scary.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
I know it is scary.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
So you know, cause you and Becky are both you
both have been in activism, you both met at planned parenthood.
How like, what is it like behind closed doors? How
because you are working twenty four to seven, you're literally
at work right now, and you please don't go into labor,
but at this moment you could go any second. Now
(34:24):
you are, so you're dedicating your life to this mission
and work.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
But what is who's Kelly outside.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Of being you know, the Human Rights Campaign president who
shows up twenty three hours a day for our people? Like,
what what are you doing outside? What are you doing
with the family? How are you showing up for Becky?
Like what's going on?
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (34:49):
Absolutely well, I will say. You know, we fell in
love through the movement. So part of what drew us
together is our passion for social change. I mean, I
think that one of the things that used to do.
I remember one of the first what was the day,
it's the first trip that we took. We went across
the world and we were sitting on a beach reading
each other like Audre.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Lord and Rich called my back and we were just
in it, you know.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
But it's been a real piece of what brings us
together is this aspiration to create a bigger, broader and
better world, to build a bigger weed. And I think
building our family has always been a part of that too.
But at home, Look, I'm Kelly from the block. I
love that I we like to watch reality television. There's
(35:35):
a real emphasis and you probably feel this too, but
like a real emphasis on being present in the moment,
like doing the little stuff, taking the kid to the
park and not looking at the phone. Yes, making like
pancakes at home, but those little moments like because if
I think about why I do this work to fight
(35:55):
for equality, it's not so I can march on the
hill and make speeches at rallies and all that. It's
so that I can have those little moments, right, those
little moments of joy and presence with the family. So
any chance that we get, we're just spending that time
and embracing it and enjoying it because you know, it
literally wasn't possible a couple of generations ago. And yet
(36:16):
we're here, two queer women of color with one and
a half almost two kids, enjoying our little life in
the suburbs.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
But because people thought for that.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Exactly we and it is our job now to stand
on the backs of the people who came before us,
that's right, And this new administration is trying to stand
on our necks. So we have to show up. This
is our time to show up. And I'm telling you,
you fire me up. Like even now I'm getting so
(36:47):
fired up, I'm like.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
But I want to know because this is important and
I asked this all the time to all of our guests.
Wide Open is clearly, you know, being a very authentic
and just peeling back the layers and talking about the
things no one else is willing to talk about.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
With your life and where you've gone and.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
The missions you've just been doing over and over and over.
What was the moment in your life that split you
wide open? Like, what was the breaking point that made it,
that changed it all.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
For you where you were like mm hmm, this is it?
Speaker 4 (37:28):
M man.
Speaker 5 (37:30):
Yeah, Wow, that's such a profound question because you can
think of like the little things over time, but what's
the big the big thing that kind of changed the trajectory.
My mom got really sick in twenty fourteen, and it
was like unclear why or what happened. And at that time,
(37:51):
I was I was working at Plant Parented. I mean
I was, I was busting my tail, I was working hard.
I was all over yeah, the world, doing all a
little sorts of things to fight for justice. And when
she got sick, of course, I went home to take
care of her. In the hospital, and I remember I
was trying to do it all. I was trying to
still kind of like be as attentive as possible to
(38:14):
the movement work and then taking care of her too.
And I remember that there was one night where she
had to be on kind of twenty four hour care
because you know, she was a little bit delirious, and
in order for them to not kind of restrain her
in the bed, you had to have somebody watch her
at all time. So I was doing an overnight shift
(38:34):
of watching her, and she had had she you know,
you have to have kind of an ivy or whatever,
and she had one in her neck at that point.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Oh wow.
Speaker 5 (38:42):
And you know, I had worked all day, was staying
up all night, and I.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
I must have I felt like I blinked.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
And when I woke up, there was a whole team
of people in the room because she had pulled that
ivy out of her neck and was very susceptible to
And I was like, what am I doing? How did
I allow myself not to prioritize the thing that matters
most right now.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Trying to be too much to too many people.
Speaker 5 (39:14):
And after that, I was like, I'm not gonna you know,
I gotta I have my I gotta have my priorities clear.
My priorities are my family. My priorities are protecting my joy.
My priorities are my peace. But it just changed the
way I looked at the world, like I'm not trying
to be everything for everyone.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
I'm trying to.
Speaker 5 (39:32):
Make sure that I that even in this fight for justice,
that I protect my family, right, because that's ultimately what
this fight is about. Yes, And so you know, that
was one of those moments that was really clarifying for me.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
But it's also been like, I think a gift.
Speaker 5 (39:48):
You know, my mom survived and she's doing great now,
and it really helped me to kind of recalibrate the
way I think about the work. But it's actually not
when you do movement work, you're not helping anybody by
sacrificing all of yourself to the movement, right.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
What you actually want to do is.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
Give the movement the best of you and then also
be prepared to embrace the joy that you are fighting for.
Because the joy isn't just the outcome that we hope
to get like after we die. Right now, it's a
strategy and how we continue to build towards getting there. Yes,
So it was a real life lesson in learning for
me that you know, I really hold on to.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
I love that. Thank you for sharing that so so powerful.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
And you know with life right now, and you're about
to have little girl, right or bringing a girl, that's good.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
What's what's next for you?
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Like, what's what's coming up besides a little rest because
I know, damn well, you're not going to rest that
long because I know you better than that.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Yeah, what what's coming up? What's what's on the radar?
What's next for us?
Speaker 4 (40:56):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (40:57):
Well, I am excited about, you know, all the development
with my family, which I'm just thrilled about. And it's
all about again, like not letting this world take away
our joy and not letting it stop us from continuing
what we've done for generations of building our families and
building our communities. And then you know, on the front
of protecting our people. You know, there's a few things
(41:18):
we got to do. I think that we all have
to be the truth tellers right now. There are so
much misinformation and lies that are spreading. We have to
be the truth tellers. I think that means helping to
separate fact from fiction and people to understand their rights
and the resources they have to protect their rights. But
it also means refusing to be silent. You know, you
(41:39):
don't have to know it all to know that discrimination
is wrong. You don't have to know it all to
know that if a kid's getting bullied because they're queer,
trends and it's not right. But we have to be
the people that are not willing to be silent bystanders,
but are going to show up and speak out, whether
it's at school or at work or wherever you are.
(41:59):
And we've got to show up. I mean, look, Pride
this year I think is going to be really important.
We need to make sure that people aren't staying home
out of fear, but they are showing up because we
have We have power in our presence, our visibility and
seeing numbers are bigger than ever they ever have been before.
Will help a queer kid in Kansas it's not out yet,
(42:21):
know that there are people that will accept them when
they are. That's what we have to do. And then
I think, you know, the last thing is kind of
more of a soul thing, but we've got to believe
that we can get to the other side of this,
But there are more good people in this world than
the extremists that you see that are attacking us. I mean,
in this last election, thirty six per thirty six percent.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Of people did not vote.
Speaker 5 (42:45):
If we get a fraction of them to feel inspired
and engaged right.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Now, we win. You know.
Speaker 5 (42:53):
So this is not a situation where we're like dramatically
in the wrong. Well, we're dramatically out of power and
without hope. No, we have hope, and we certainly have power,
but we've got to use that and we've got to.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
Believe in it.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah, And I am a very firm believer in speaking
truth into existence. And the thing that keeps me up
every night is, you know, the conversation around letting trans
kids participate in sports, like I lose too much damn
sleep over this. And for a child who was so
(43:28):
troubled in their home, I am telling you that the
single handed thing that saved my damn life was my
team because I felt a type of belonging I did
not feel at home. I felt a safety that I
did not feel at home, and it was a good
(43:49):
outlet for me to understand life's fucking lessons like I
am who I am because of the sports I played,
and what I learned about leadership, what I'd learned about adapting,
the tools I gained to show up in groups and
different like holding each other accountable and fighting as a collective.
(44:13):
There's so many great things I learned, But the biggest
thing it.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Saved my life. And how how are we because it
kept me off the streets.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
And I'm a person who started doing drugs in sixth
grade and my coach was like, what are we doing here?
Like it was my support system and it held me
accountable in the way I showed up for the group.
And how are we going to take that away from kids?
How are we going to take that experience away from
these young children just wanting a place to play, to belong.
Speaker 5 (44:47):
Yeah, And that's that's what people need to be hearing, right.
I Mean, we all want sports to be fair, we
want students to be safe, We want young people to
have all the opportunities that you just talked about.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
It's critical important.
Speaker 5 (45:00):
It's not only life changing, it's life saving, like you said.
And I can even make space for people that don't
understand everything right, Like some people have legitimate questions about well,
what does participation look like, what does it mean? Maybe
they don't know a transgender, non binary person, right, and
they want those questions answered. But what I am clear
(45:22):
about is that the answer cannot be that we are
going to exclude kids from.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
All the benefits of sport. We just can't do it.
And especially when you look towards this future generation.
Speaker 5 (45:32):
I think I said earlier, thirty percent of Generation Z
identify as LGBTQ, A lot of them.
Speaker 4 (45:38):
Identify as non binary.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
It's not a viable solution to only say, well, we're
just going to exclude, and in fact, even more so
than non viable, it's actually dangerous. I mean, how many
times have we also seen, just over the course of
history that if you don't fit into somebody's idea or
box about what gender should look like, especially for for women,
(46:00):
you are policed, they.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Come after you. I mean, I just think about.
Speaker 5 (46:05):
The way the you know, the sojournal truth of it
all for black women, right, Ain't I a woman We
had to go through so much to prove our womanhood
as cist gender women. Or I think about the athletes
like the Algerian boxer right, who was a cisgender woman
who is targeted by anti trans attacks or Britney Griner
is another example. So let's also be clear that the
(46:26):
ways that these bills are moving are not only dangerous
to the fundamental just truth that kids should be able
to play sports and get all the benefits from those sports.
I mean, either're targeting kids as young as four and
five years old, but also that the ways that these
bills are created, they actually expose cisgender women to high
(46:46):
levels of scrutiny, interrogation, possible examinations that look, I don't
we don't need to have any of that happening. So
I think that this is one of those spaces where
authentic conversations are needed, Yes, where we need to be
bringing folks into the conversation discussion. We don't have to
leave with a solution, but we do have to know
(47:08):
that excluding kids and using kids as political chips like
they are right now, hmm, that's not.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Okay, Yeah, it's not, and it's not.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
And we need to envision and pave the way for
a world in which we're all treated equal, the freedom
to live our life and our truth without fear, without judgment,
without harassment under the law. Like we have to keep
doing this, and that's what you're doing as the president.
You are showing up in a way that is so impactful.
(47:40):
You are going to leave an incredible legacy behind based
on your life's work and choosing it because it is
a choice, and you choose it every single day, every moment.
And I am so grateful for those choices because to
call you our pre I have to keep calling it's
(48:01):
you are my president. I'm not seeing the world any
other way. But I'm so grateful that you made these
choices to show up in this way for the human
Rights campaign, because I do think this is the moment.
It is a define It's a defining moment in our life,
and for us to be a part of it, to
(48:22):
be pivotal, to be important characters in this story, I'm
I'm humbled by it and I'm ready for the opportunity
every single day. And I'm grateful for our friendship and
for you coming on and being a part of my
show Wide Open. But I know I have you as
a sister in my life, and that to me is
what it's about.
Speaker 4 (48:42):
Ah. I love you, Ashlyn Harris. I know I'm not
alone in this.
Speaker 5 (48:46):
We are doing this together, and I'm reminded that Cornell
West quote, justice is what love looks like in public.
I love you and I love that your commitment to
justice shows up in these ways.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Thanks Kelly, thanks for being on our show, and can
you tell everyone where they can find you and if
they want to sign up to be volunteers for the HRC.
I want everyone to hear that again because it is
so important and we need everyone right now. We are
in the fight of our lives for our generation and
we have to keep showing up absolutely.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
Look, if folks want to get involved, you can text
action to four seven two four seven two. You can
visit us at HRC dot org, or find us on
the internets. I'm at Kelly J. Robinson on Instagram and
all across the webs, and we're at HRC and at
Human Rights Campaign.
Speaker 4 (49:33):
But join us.
Speaker 5 (49:34):
We need you in this movement, We need you in
this fight, and together we are going to get free.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yes that part.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Thank you again for everyone tuning in to another episode
of Wide Open. We'll see you next week. Wide Open
with Ashland Harris is an iheartwomen's sports production. You can
find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts. Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo,
(50:03):
Emily Maronoff, and Lucy Jones. Production assistants from Malia Aguidello.
Our executive producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.
Our editors are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder and I'm
Your Host Ashlyn Harris
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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