August 10, 2023 • 56 mins
We’re nearing the end of our series, but before we go we have a surprise for you. Is it tin cups and peppermint sticks? A pig’s bladder? No! It’s our extended interview with the one and only Melissa Gilbert! No one knows what it’s like to shoulder the legacy of Laura Ingalls Wilder quite like Melissa. 50 years ago, she was cast as Laura Ingalls on the Little House TV show at just 9 years old, which means Melissa has spent close to a lifetime with Laura and all of her complications. She talked to us about that experience, as well as what it was like working on the TV show, finding agency as a young actor, her business Modern Prairie, her activism, and even her thoughts on Rose. We hope you enjoy this interview as much as we did!
Go deeper:
Melissa Gilbert’s memoirs Prairie Tale and Back to the Prairie
Modern Prairie
Follow us for behind the scenes content!
@WilderPodcast on TikTok
@Wilder_Podcast on Instagram
We want to hear from you! If listening to Wilder has changed your thinking on Laura Ingalls Wilder and the Little House books, send a voice memo to wilderpodcast@gmail.com. You might be featured in our final episode ;)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello Wilder listeners, This is producer Emily taking over for
Glenneth today because we are still prepping for our final episode.
Thank you to everyone who's come this far with us,
and especially thank you to those who have reached out
to share about their relationship with Laura in their life.
We're incorporating a bunch of your feedback into our grand
finale episode. But while you wait for that, we have
(00:22):
a surprise for you. There are so many things we
haven't been able to include in this series. Moments from
the road, more background on Laura and Roses lives, and
of course all the fascinating things are guests said in interviews.
We wanted to release one of those full interviews, so
we present to you our extended Melissa Gilbert interview. If
(00:43):
you grew up loving The Little House television show, you
know Melissa Gilbert. I know that when Glennis first started
talking to me about a podcast about Laura Ingles Wilder,
the first image that popped up in my head was
ten year old Melissa running down that grassy hill with
braids of floral calico dress. Of course, now we know
that Laura is so many things, and no one understands
(01:06):
that legacy better than Melissa, who's been shouldering a part.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Of it for the past fifty years.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
We're so thankful that she was willing to talk to
us about what that experience has been like. Our conversation
ranged from her time on the TV show with Michael
Landon and the rest of the cast, to finding agency
as a young actor, to her business Modern Prairie, to
her activism, and even.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Her thoughts on Rose Wilder Lane.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
We spoke to Melissa over Zoom, where she came to
us from her home in the Catskills. By the way,
she now lives there in a very picturesque, cozy, homespun
Laura esque life. It was so great to talk to her.
We're so grateful she shared her time with us. We
hope you enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Thank you for agreeing to do this. We're so excited
that you here.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I'm thrilled. Nine year old me is beyond thrilled.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I must tell you, well, first of all, we should
have you introduced yourself, Melissa. I'm sure everyone's going to
recognize your voice when they listen to this, but you know,
for the purposes of three people who might not know
who you are, if you could just properly introduce yourself,
that would be really wonderful.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Uh Hi, I am Melissa Gilbert and I had the
incredible honor of playing Laura Ingalls Wilder Laura Ingles first,
and then Laura Ingles Wilder ultimately on Little House in
the Prairie, the television series.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
How did that come to happen?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
My first TV series? I was Everyron was gun Smoke.
That's how old I am. I think I was about
five or six at that point, and I really just
only did little jobs here and there because my parents
felt that meeting school was more important. But Little House
in the Prairie came along, and it was my mom's
favorite books, and I had read Little House in the
(02:57):
Big Woods and was starting to read Little House in
the Prairie that and I was pretty excited. And so
the decision was made that I would audition. And I
don't know what everyone else was thinking, but I knew
there were hundreds of girls auditioning too, so I figured
it's never going to happen. And then it just, you know,
was the ordinary process called back back, callback, callback screen test,
(03:17):
and I got the part, and the adventure began, and
what an adventure it was. It's been, you know, nearly
fifty years since we first aired, so it has been
dipty years since we shot the pilot. Not a day
goes by that I don't think about Little House in
the Prairie or mention something to do with Little House
in the Prey, or Laura or Rose or the Angles relatives,
(03:42):
or something that has something to do with them, and
they're so infused in my in my being at this point,
I want to.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Talk about that in a bit because I'm curious what
it's like to shoulder that legacy. But just going back
to the audition process, did you, during that process audition
with Michael Landon or any the other members of the
who eventually became the cast.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I did. I got to go in and read with
Michael early On. Kent McCrae, our producer, was there, and
Susan Sukman, who later became Susan McCrae was there, and
I remember Michael and the reason I remember Michael Lannon.
I went to a private school in Los Angeles, the
Buckley School, and I had auditioned and screen tested for
(04:24):
a Little House and didn't know if I'd gotten the part,
and I was at school one day in the lunch area,
and this other girl ran up to me and she said,
are you Melissa, And I said yeah. She said I'm
Leslie Landon. And my dad says, you're going to be Laura,
And nobody knew. My agents hadn't gotten a call yet.
My mother didn't know. I ran to the office because
sand there's no cell phones. Then I ran to the
(04:45):
office and said it was an emergency. I had to
call my mom, and my mom called my agents, and
my agents called the network, and Leslie got so grounded,
so grounded. We're still friends to this day. But when
I auditioned, I didn't know who Michael Lennon was. I'd
never watched Bonanza. My family was beside themselves. My grandfather,
who was, you know, a very famous comedy writer and
(05:07):
is all right, sent a note over to Michael and
he knew him from writing the Dean Martin roasts. And
my grandfather actually typed out my audition scenes for me
on his typewriter, and my mom and my godmother, my grandmother,
everybody were They were all hysterical. And I was going
to meet this Michael Landon who was supposed to be
just the best and the most handsome and so talented,
(05:28):
and I didn't know, and I went into the room
when I first saw him, and soon as I met him,
I knew exactly why they were all hysterical. He just
he glowed, you know, he just he had it undeniable.
And the first time I heard him laugh, he had
the best laugh of any human I've ever been around,
aside from my kids and grandkids, who their laughs killed me.
(05:51):
But his laugh was just so, this could be it.
And then I found out later too, after the screen
test that when they took this great tests to show
it to NBC to the network, Michael only took mine
and basically said, if it's not her, then we can't
do it, which is wow. I'm glad I didn't know
that at the time. That would have been a lot
(06:12):
for a nine year old to carry, but now looking back,
it's immensely appreciated.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Well, speaking of a.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Lot for a nine year old to carry, you know,
we spoke to Alison Arngrim and Karen Grassley, who both
brought up on their own what an extraordinary presence you
were as a nine year old. Like Alison Arngrim talks
about meeting you for the first time, and I think
described you as being sort of like a firecracker, but
just how in command of yourself and.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
How I guess in control.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
You were almost like that you were very powerful force
and really knew exactly what you wanted and what was expected.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Is that do you remember it like that?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I knew what my job was and I rejoiced that.
I rejoiced then doing it. I love that job. I
still love that job. I love to act. I have
you know now at this point it had and have
at least eight other careers. Acting is the one thing
that doesn't necessarily come the easiest, but fits the best
(07:24):
and brings me the most satisfaction. And so as a
kid it was just as as maybe commanding and in
control as they described me being. I felt like I
was as full of wonder at the same time. I mean,
I just everything was a marvel to me. The fact
that they brought me boots that had buttons and they
had to teach me how to use a button hook
(07:45):
to button those high button boots. They were legitimately button boots,
no hidden zippers, and that to me was like the
best game of dress up in the world. I mean,
I there were for real cows and real horror says,
and real chickens and other kids to play with. And
we were outside, I think more than they were inside.
(08:08):
And there were all these great grown ups around who
were like a bunch of crazy aunts and uncles. And
there were all these wonderful men on the crew who
taught me how to ride horses and would throw me
in the air and catch me. I mean, it was
heaven for a kid. I even loved going to school
on the set, you know, I dilly dally. There was
(08:29):
there was, I mean, it was common knowledge with the
assistant directors. They'd have to always say, hey, half Pipe
go to school, because that was like the thing, Halfpipe
go to school. And it would just trickle down to
the whole crew where I'd be standing again, and you go,
h Halfpipe go to school, and it would, you know,
one by one, I'd walk by everyone. But even that part,
even the school part, was great. I loved my teacher,
(08:49):
missus Venir. I loved being in the classroom with Alison
when she was there. She got to go to regular
school more than I did, but it was a really
fun environment. And then being able to work with all
of those extraordinary actors and crew, the adults, and to
(09:10):
be considered their peer while we were working was an
honor actually and very I didn't feel burdened by it ever.
I felt like it was gifted to me, like this
was a tremendous responsibility, but they were giving me the
responsibility because they knew I could do it, and that
made me feel really good about myself as an actor.
(09:33):
So he felt very supported on the set always. I
never felt pushed or forced to do anything I didn't
want to do. It was a very as kid friendly
as a set could be. This was the kid friendliest.
We were contained, but we weren't caged certainly.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Allison said that one of the things she remembered about
Michael was people ask her that he respected her as
a as a worker, you know, like he respected There
was a lot of respect that you towards the child actors,
that that they were getting paid and they were here
to do a job as opposed to handholding.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I guess was the sense I got.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
It was the same with anyone as long as we
did our job, because we were not at We've our
crew loved blessedly because they've been together so long since
some since high Chaparral and then Bonanza and then Little House.
They worked really really fast. There wasn't any time for delays.
(10:32):
So as long as we were professional adults and children
alike and knew our lines, our jobs, what we had
to do, and everything went smoothly, that was great. But
if someone came in and didn't know or was unprofessional
in any way, it wouldn't last very long and they'd
be gone, And it didn't matter if they were a
kid or an adult. There was just no time for unprofessionalism.
(10:54):
When you say the crew called you half pint, that
just sort of stood out to me. Was there because
you're so young?
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Was there sort of like a bleeding over of your
character into your sort of idea of yourself and your
relationship with Michael and the relationship Laura has with Pa.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Was that it ever sort of confusing or it was.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Never confusing, It was always really clear. I mean, I
had my own father who I adored, but my father
passed away when I was eleven, so two years into
the series, I was nurturing this relationship on camera with Michael.
When my father died, and our families were all really close,
my parents were divorced and my mother was remarried, but
(11:36):
my mom and my stepdad and Michael and his wife
Lynn and their kids and and our family, we all
vacation together. We went to Hawaii on Spring break together.
We had New Year's Eves together. We slept over each
other's houses. So our relationship transcended just work. We were tight.
And Michael, I always looked at him as a father,
(11:59):
being you and mentor. But never was I confused between
which one was my daddy and which one was And
I call him my paw and he is. I mean,
that's my paw. And my dad is my dad, and
my birth father is my birth father. So you know
I'm able to keep straight. I'm adopted, so I have
all these relationships that I'm very well able to keep straight.
(12:20):
I know exactly the who. And oddly enough, for all
of these wonderful men that have come in and out
of my life, most of them have passed away, they're
all still sort of there in me and an inspiration
in so many ways. Michael, especially you.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Wrote in your book about him directing you and sort
of getting you into the emotion. There was so much crime,
There was so much crying on that show, I mean
from him as much as any as much as anyone else.
I'm just curious, like looking, I have no sense, but
like the sort of the sense of maybe emotional. I
don't know if manipulation is too strong a word, but
how how he would get you or any other of
(12:58):
the kid actors sort of into place to access that
emotion or as a kid, do you have access to
it more easily?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
For me?
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I mean, I think I've always been a bit of
an EmPATH, even as a kid, so accessing that kind
of emotion was never difficult for me.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
But it is.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I mean, on a week by week basis shooting a
show like Little House in the Prairie, there's always someone crying,
crying or running or running and crying at the same time,
which I seemed to do in every episode, crying and
running and running and crying. And there were times where
it was those emotions were hard to tap into, and
when those times would happen, Michael could kind of sense
(13:35):
it if he was there. And there were many many
times where one that comes into mind, especially where I
was having a hard time and just not quite in it,
and he kind of cut everything and stopped everything and said, cure,
take a walk. With me and walk me away from
the set, and by the time he got about, I
don't know, twenty feet away, he knelt down in front
of me and he had tears streaming down his face
(13:57):
and he looked at me and he said, do you
have any idea how much I love you? And I
started crying. He said, okay, you're ready, can we go
do the scene now?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Now?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, it was definitely manipulative, but was it in a
bad way? I don't know about that. I think that
he knew what I needed to get where I needed
to go to do my job that day, and I
didn't walk away from it feeling weird or bad or
in hindsight as a as a highly therapized adult looking
(14:29):
back on that, I don't think. You know, there were
things that we did in the Little House that I
look back on and go, well, that was maybe weird
or odd or I should not have been put in
that uncomfortable position, But this was not one of those times.
This is actually, as an adult, I wish I had
directors like that around. When I'm, you know, having a
hard time getting into something, sometimes you knell a little boost.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Alison talked about feeling that her character allowed her a
safe space to express anger. And just you talking about
losing your father when you were eleven, if it was
a sort of safe space to express complicated grief.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Oh, one hundred percent. We were not great at grief
at home. I grew up in a family where those
sort of feelings, sadness and anger are considered bad, and
so we don't do that, and so crying is back
then was considered like a bad thing to do, and
don't let the kids cry, and they shouldn't cry, and
(15:24):
they shouldn't so we didn't talk about it. We didn't
really share feelings, not like we do now, and certainly
not like I did with my kids. A perfect example
is when my youngest son's pet mouse died and I
insisted that we have an actual funeral for the mouse,
and the kids didn't even want it, but I wanted
them to have a moment to greet the mouse. I
compensated for clearly, for stuff that I was missing. But
(15:46):
I did have that outlet on the set, and that
was that was a wonderful thing.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
The other kind of odd thing was after my father died,
the family edict of not discussing it carry it through
to the work. The adults were told not to discuss
it with me, probably because it would have made it
hard for me to do my job, which would have
delayed and cost a lot of You know, this is
a business, and I don't remember anyone being particularly overly
(16:13):
solicitous or extra nice or anything. It's just sort of regular.
But there were a couple extra hugs here and there
during those months and during that time, and if I
look back now, I can I remember that growd was
kind of looking at me and clocking me and making
sure that I was okay.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
What when you say some of the situations you feel
like maybe you shouldn't have been put in. I know
you wrote about Dean Butler being cast, you know, as Almonzo.
I have to say, in doing the podcast, it made
me rethink those episodes where you get married, because even
the character was quite young, and I was young when
(16:51):
I was watching it, so I thought sixteen was very old,
but even as a grown up, I'd never actually thought
it was. In that interview with him, I think I thought,
you're right, I mean, so young and young for you
to be put in a position with a grown man.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
What do you think about that now?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Looking back, Well, I can tell you from the lens
of today, you can't do that. There's no way they
could shoot it. There's no way they would cast it
that way, and there's certainly no way it would be
handled the way it was handled, not with you know.
Now we have intimacy coordinators and we have all this
dialogue around being comfortable and feeling safe, which is amazing.
(17:29):
Nobody talked to me about it. It was just it
was nobody said, are you uncomfortable? Are you okay?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Is this all right?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
It was just I remember being told that the Almonzo
episodes were coming. Correct pronunciation, by the way, is al
Manzo anyway? So I remember being told al Manso was coming,
and my assumption was, you know, because Laura and al
Manzo were not far apart in age in real life,
not massively, so my assumption was there'd be someone coming.
(17:58):
It was close in age to me, maybe one of
my contemporaries. And then when they told me that it
was Dean and they showed me a picture and then
he came to the set, I was taken aback because
my first thought was that's a man. I mean, I
can't even tell you what a girl I was. I
mean I was a gidget. I was a tomboy. I
was fourteen, fifteen years old, knock kneed, bucktooth, still had
(18:21):
braces on, wasn't allowed to shave my things. Here comes
this guy who shaves his face and then drives a car.
I hadn't been on a date and kissed a boy.
Fortunately we had a little run up to the actual
marriage and stuff. But by the time we got to
the Sweet sixteen episode and the first kiss and all
of that, it was you know, I knew Dean, and
I liked Dean, and I got along with Dean, but
(18:42):
I still felt like I was out of my element,
to put it mildly, and yet I powered through and
I did it. But looking back in hindsight, if I
were producing or directing or the parent, it would have
been completely different for my kid. Again, it's a reflection
(19:03):
of the times and where we were. And you know,
you watch it now and it doesn't look weird even
to me, And I'm watching it, going, oh god, I
was so uncomfortable that day, but you know it didn't
bother me at all. I'm climbing into bed with this
grown up man and I still hadn't been on a
date yet and we're having babies, and I did I
(19:24):
think at that point I had kissed a boy.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Wow, that's wild.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I mean I think thinking back to how I watched
it with it wasn't just that I wasn't questioning it.
I don't recall anyone questioning it at the time. No,
or even when I in reruns all through my team,
like there was no there was no any anyone saying.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Well, maybe think about this.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
It's almost like Laura went from she hit puberty and
then she was married.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
There was very little.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Experience and there was a very little, you know, difference
between It's almost like they didn't know what to do
with you once.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I think that's true. I think that you know, there
comes a time where you've you got to contribute to
the family, and the only way to do that at
that time is to either be a teacher or get
married or both, because there were no other opportunities for women.
So that it is a reflection of the actual time.
But I would defy anyone. I don't care who it is.
(20:16):
I don't care if it's Tom Hanks or Steven Spielberg
to go to a studio or a network and say
we're going to do a show where the fifteen year
old marries the twenty six year old.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
The fifteen year old in real life, not even like
a twenty two year old who can fast for fifteen
exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
But now yeah, no, no, no, no no no, I
just don't. You can't do it now and again, like
I said, though when you watch it even today, it
doesn't look odd and it certainly didn't appear awkward for
either of us. But it was very awkward for me
and uncomfortable. And I did do things like in scripts
that would come down the pike that said, you know,
(20:54):
and they kiss, I would go sneaking in and see,
can be change it to hug please? But I had
to advocate for myself because the adults were not having
the conversation with me.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And but you were listened to to some extent, I was.
I was definitely listened to.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I can feel myself getting like getting shy and embarrassed
again like I did then I did. I did a
lot of blushing.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
I mean, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
I think two, what we're hitting on is like in
some of those episodes that dealt with women. It felt
the show, even at the time, felt a little aggressive,
and then some episodes that dealt with race or even
the amount of black people who were cast in the
show felt very ahead of its time. The episode with Solomon,
you know, frequently I see it come across you know,
(21:41):
social media.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
What do you hear about the.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Most that, especially after COVID, you know, when everyone was
kind of going back to Little House and they were
watching Quarantine and Plague and all of those episodes that
we did that summer of twenty twenty, when the contry
was going through with the country, the world was going
through that massive social upheaval and unrest all around George
(22:06):
Floyd and Breonna Taylor and all of the horrible injustices
that were going on, the Wisdom of Solomon came up
a lot, and I was hearing on Twitter from people
like Jamie Fox and Biola Davis who knew Little House
in the Prairie was so woke, and I'm sitting and hungry.
I did. I did. I knew because I had to
do that scene where I had to try and wipe
(22:27):
the black off of Todd Bridges's face, and I hated.
I asked not to do it. I said to Michael,
I can't do that. That's horrible. Who does that? He said, yeah,
but we're trying to show people how wrong it is
to be ignorant and how open Laura is to learning
something new. And I said, okay, well then I'll do it.
(22:48):
But you're I mean, I had to say, you're a
real Negro person and wipe the black off with his face.
Was absurd to me. But once it was explained that
this is what we were doing and the lessons we
were teaching, that was impactful to me because I realized
that our show was more than just Laura's story. It
(23:08):
was the story of our time at that time. Remember
this was the seventies and the country was going through
a great deal of civil unrest, the Civil Rights movement,
the er I was post Vietnam. We did an episode
about the soldier's return, Richard Mulligan playing the Civil War
veteran coming home addicted to morphine while all of these
(23:30):
veterans were coming back from Vietnam addicted to heroin. It
was the very timely and topical the episodes we did
dealing with anti semitism and nativism and the rights of
Native Americans. I mean, these are themes that keep coming
back and coming back and coming back, and we even
touched on women's rights and chauvinism and the mistreatment of
(23:50):
women at the same time while marginalizing women to do
nothing but poor coffee, sometimes for many episodes at a time.
One of the most stawn feminists I know was Karen Gressley,
who was one of the great coffee pourers of all time.
But then every once in a while they'd give her
an episode where she put her foot down and said,
well and remind Pa that she is his partner and
(24:12):
not just his property. But again, we're reflecting the eighteen
hundreds when women had zero rights, and a reflection of
the nineteen seventies where women had maybe a half a
point of rights.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
But still, you know, certainly not where we are today
and not where we need to be. Welcome back to
(24:49):
our conversation with Melissa Gilbert. There were so many points
we couldn't get to in our already lengthy episode on
the television series, and something that we only slightly touched
on were the comp all occasions of Michael Landon as
a person. If you're a little house diehard, you might
know that Karen Grassley, who played Caroline Ingoles on the
show came out with a memoir a few years back
(25:11):
that detailed a bitter contract dispute between her and Michael
over her salary, and she also opened up about the
general misogyny on.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
The Little House set in the seventies and eighties.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Unsure of how those dynamics might have affected the kids
on set, we asked.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Melissa what she thought of all this.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Now, were you aware as a kid?
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I know just from talking to other cast members that
the kids shot during the day and then some of
the grown up scenes were shot sort of after the
kids went home. But were we ever aware of the
tension that Karen Grassley wrote about in her book between
her and Michael and sort of the contract dispute.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I wasn't aware of the contract dispute. I was aware
of the misogynistic humor by and large, not just Michael,
as the entire all of the men of the crew.
And I heard the jokes and they were some of
them were horrible and completely inappropriate. You know, those sets
(26:09):
are tend to be very rible body places anyway. But
the anti women, or the demeaning of women, I should
say jokes didn't impact me because I sort of didn't
Some of them I didn't actually understand either, but like
some of them were pretty raunchy, and I could see
Karen stiffen and bristle and eye roll and walk away,
(26:33):
and I knew that that was inappropriate and was making
her feel bad and or angry. And I knew that
that was wrong. I didn't. I was a kid, it
wasn't I'm not going to get in the middle of
the adults. I didn't in the middle of my parents arguing.
So I wasn't about to get in the middle of
my mom pa either. It's not my place in MI insight.
I think you know. I read her book one hundred
(26:55):
percent her experience, and it is a legitimate experience. Actually
had lunch, oh gosh a while back with Jen Landon,
and it was right when Karen's book came out, and
she said to me, I don't understand what all the
hooplaw is with all the Michael Landon supporters who are
mad at Karen for telling the truth. She said, I
(27:15):
totally imagine my dad was a misogynist back then. That's
just the way it was. He was that guy. Doesn't
mean that he's evil, it was just he was a
reflection of his times. I mean, one of the things
I think about often is what sort of television would
Michael Lander be making now after the last few years.
(27:36):
And I don't think it would be anything. He would
be functioning the way he did then, and I think
he'd be telling stories that are timely and important and topical.
I think he'd be appalled at what's going on in
the world today in many many ways, or at least
I hope. But based on what I know of that man,
he would have grown with the times.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
You can see evidence of that in some of the
episodes and also touched by an Angel. I mean in
certain way, he was so progressive, so much crying. It
was so he cried so much all the time, and
I think that is progressive. For he was also, you know, shirtless,
oiled up, with perfect hair, and I think the collision
of those two things is.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
A contradiction.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yes, I think so too. But he was a contradiction
as well. This was a man who who espoused family
values and community values and was married three times and
had children with three different women, and was deeply flawed
and human. But who isn't doesn't mean he's a bad person.
It just means he's a human person, and he tried
(28:38):
to tell stories that he felt were important and impactful.
It's all you can ask from the filmmaker. What are
the episodes you hear about the most? I hear about
The Lord is My Shepherd a lot. It's my favorite too,
and it's very hard for me to watch sometimes. It's
even hard for me to talk about it. In fact,
I can sort of feel like a lump in my throne. Now.
I hear about Bunny and the race. People really dig
(29:03):
the wheelchair push down the hill.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
That's the only time my mother walked into the family
room and said, Laura seems mean. And I was like,
Laura's amazing, and my mother said, I don't. I don't
think that was a nice thing to do, and then
exited the room.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Well, Laura was pushed to the brink. And I'll tell
you Alison got her revenge. Many years ago. I had
to go in for a colonoscopee and she took me
and when it was over, they wouldn't let me walk
out of the surgery center. I had to go out
a wheelchair and she pushed it and she kept threatening
(29:38):
to shut me down a number of different hills that day,
even though I didn't. I said, I, you know something,
my fallow, I didn't write it.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Let me do that.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
The other thing I hear about a lot too is
the mud fight people like a lot when Alison and
I got physical.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Yeah, I mean, I actually hear that from a lot
of fans, and I think, I mean, and there's one
of appeal to that, But I think it was having
girls express sort of like complicated emotions to each other
and that jealousy and competition, which felt very recognizable at
that age.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I think the other thing that that that informed those performances,
and maybe the audience was getting it subliminally, was that
we really loved each other dearly. And I've always said,
you know, you don't really have to necessarily get along
all that well with someone you're doing a love scene with,
but boy, you have to love and trust the person
you're doing a fight sing with.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
I'm curiously how sort of I just want to talk
a bit about your you know, after a little house career,
the it feels like the professionalism of that set set
you up well because then you became you know, president
of SAG, you ran for office.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Are the are there.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Direct connections between coming off that experience that moved you
into sort of other positions of power.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
There was a step in the middle that happened actually
when I was fourteen. My mother took me to meet
with a manager man named ray Cats Raymond Katz. He
established my production company then when I was fourteen, Half
Pint Productions, and asked what stories I wanted to tell,
(31:17):
what characters I wanted to play, and my mom and
I had talked about it before I went in, and
we talked about doing The Miracle Worker and me playing
Helen Keller, and that started while we were doing Little House.
So I was actually producing and starring in my own
films before Little House ended. So we did the Mira
Porker Diary Friend Frank Splunder in the Grass, and that
Little House ended and we continued working. So I learned
(31:38):
how to produce at that time too. And also remember
I wasn't just there working and playing. I was also
on the Little House set, watching Michael and Kent and
watching the crew and learning everybody's jobs, which was something
Michael wanted me to do. I knew what the greensmen did,
I knew what the Cress Services people did. I knew
what the wranglers did. I knew what everyone's job was,
(31:58):
so I had a respect for that sort of team.
And when we went to do our own productions, we
actually just took the little house crew with us. We
had that same fantastic land and work ethic in the
Half Pint productions as well. And so as I got older,
I got more and more involved, and eventually, many many
years later, ran and got elected as the President of
(32:19):
Screen Actors Guild. And while I was there, I got
elected to the executive Council of the afl CIO and
the California Film Commission, and so I really got involved
in the political realm, and that just seemed a natural progression.
Many many years later, when I was asked to run
for office, I thought, well, yeah, like, I think I
(32:40):
can do this. It's supposed to be by the people
for the people, right, so I'm the people.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Why not Do you think about doing it again?
Speaker 1 (32:48):
No, I doubt I think I was rescued. I think
my neck, which decided to give out and I needed
to have a third massive spinal surgery, had to drop
out of the race. That was twenty sixteen. It was
kind of a it would have been a really difficult
ear to a couple of years to serve and travel
(33:10):
back and forth, obviously with my neck, but also with
the political climate just worsening and worsening and worsening. I
think that I was saved from having to deal with
a lot more emotional turmoil than I do from a distance.
Does not mean I'm not completely involved in I'm on
the Democratic Committee up here. I'm very involved in the
issues that I'm passionate about, and I think I can
(33:33):
do a lot more work on the ground. I would
rather be on the ground in a protest than in
a chamber making those kinds of decisions and trying to
pass laws in a system that's clearically broken and is
not getting anywhere no matter what we do. The pendulum swings,
the pendulum swings, the pendulum s faith, it's and it's
just it's too frustrating. I feel like I can do much.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
More from here. What has it been like for you?
You to shoulder the legacy of Laura. I was thinking
of sort of like Anne of green Gables and Megan.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Fellows that Anna green Gables is a fictional character, but
you like Laura Ingles Wilder making the decision at age
sixty five to sit down and write her life story
has impacted your life in such enormous ways, it's hard
to grasp, Like, what is it like.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
To shoulder all of that?
Speaker 5 (34:25):
Really?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
I mean, it sounds so trite to say this, but
it is what it is. It's what I've been given,
and it is a gift. I do feel very honored
to have been chosen, and I do feel very blessed
that this is my life. Because of it, I feel
a certain responsibility to the stories, to the legacy of
Laura and the Ingles family and Rose and everyone around her.
(34:50):
It's interesting my husband and I were talking about this
sort of subject recently because the first three characters really
that I played of import in my life life our
Lora Angeles Wilder, Helen Keller, and Ann Frank, not only
to those tremendous acting opportunities, but all three of those
women or people have monstrous legacies, I mean unbelievable import
(35:16):
to the world, and not just to America but to
the world. And so I think if I get too
caught up in shouldering the responsibility of that, I'll feel very,
very weighted down. I felt a lot more responsibility to
behave like a nice young lady in public when you know,
when I really just kind of wanted to be a
(35:37):
bit of a wild child myself in my late teens
and early twenties. I remember, actually, when I was a kid,
I bought one letter. I wasn't allowed to read my
fan mail, which is a good thing. There was one
letter that I got a hold of when I was
about fifteen that had been hidden from me. I think
it came when I was about twelve. It was from
a little girl who wrote and said, I wish I
(35:58):
could be more like you, because my dad said he
would hit me less if I was. And I'm really
glad I didn't see that till I was older. But still,
that's like, that's a lot for a kid, so they
were right to keep that from me.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
That's a lot for anyone. That'd be a lot for you.
Right now, These are the.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Things that women will come up to me cry and say,
you know, my childhood was miserable. I was molested by
an uncle. And little house in the prairie was my escape.
And I love that and I appreciate it, and I
am there for it. But I can only do so
much of that, and then I'm just depleted. You know,
it's like being a therapist a little bit. Wow, it
(36:37):
was a big show. It was a really it's an honor.
It's a treasured responsibility, is the best way to put it.
And I hope it continues in so many different ways too.
I would love to continue telling the stories, living these stories,
bringing these stories to life. We'll see you know.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
From our last episode, you know that Melissa Gilbert has
most recently carried on Laura's legacy with her lifestyle brand,
Modern Prairie.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Our producer and co host Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Piazza stepped in to ask Melissa how it came to be.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
Yeah, I mean I love it, by the way, I
love everything on the site.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
I want it all.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
I want to decorate my cabin with Modern Prairie. But
I want to hear a little bit about how it
came to be. How did this become a business?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I have had this sort of little hatchling of an
idea for a couple decades that there's something more to
do with just the entire sort of prairie ethos. There
was it all for me. It starts with them, of
all objects, a butterbell and if you don't know what
a butter bell is a butter keeper is I actually
(37:59):
have one I'm looking at right now. It's a ceramic
holder for butter. You put the butter in it, and
you put it in the croc and you put it
upside down in water, and it keeps your butter fresh
and soft without having to refrigerate it. And they've been
around for eons. People look at them and go, oh
my god, that's so cool. And I always thought, let's
create something around a butterbell and go from there and
(38:20):
take us back to these sweet, simple things, which really
are the best things after all, just full on Loura
angles Wilder celebration. But how do we do this? And
so I had conversations with the branding department at the
agency and put together decks of ideas of things that
these could be. And it kind of came and went,
(38:41):
came and went, but it was always in the back
of my mind. And two years ago, on my birthday,
I had friends over up here, my friends Johnny and Roswell,
who are the first friends we made up here, and
I was talking about this idea for this retail line
kind of lifestyle the little house I don't know, and
I said, I want to do this, and I showed
(39:01):
them the deck. They went and Johnny said, I know
this woman, Nicole o'hazi, who has a company who's looking
for something like this. Let me connect you to well.
Nicole and I got along like a house of fire,
like instantaneously, and we had a few conversations about what
it could be, and she came back to me with
her version of it, which was a bajillion times better
(39:22):
than my deck, and we signed papers and said let's go.
And it really started out as yes, a retail line
sort of, but there's more to it than that. It's
a place for obviously women over a certain age, the
mature woman like me, and it's not just about buying things.
(39:45):
It's now grown into a community. And what's fascinating to me.
You know, we have all these workshops and everything from
you know, how to paint with watercolor, to how to
deal with grief during the holidays, to how to get unstuck,
which is a big thing with women over a certain age.
You know, their kids are gone. We're reassessing what we
(40:08):
want to do with this last third of our lives.
Do we want to stay in the business we're in,
Do we want to follow our passion? Do we want
to travel?
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Are we?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Are we alone? Are we caring for aging parents? Are
we you know, all of these things that we're dealing
with at this part in our lives. There's no space
for a community for people to talk about these things.
So we started this sort of we created this space
with these workshops, and in the beginning, you know, we
have these very deep emotional workshops. While it's reached a
(40:37):
point where they're talking to each other and supporting each
other through transitions, through changes, through they're becoming a community.
And what's kind of the heart of Prairie for me
is the community aspect. There's nothing more reassuring than knowing
that you're not the only one who's experiencing whatever it is,
(40:59):
whether it's a most physical, psychological, doesn't matter. To know
that there are people who've gone through ahead of you,
and that there are people coming up behind you who
will follow in your footsteps and come to you for
that advice. That's what community is, and we support each
other and we it's about love, and that's again it
goes back to Lourer Engles Wilder and the Engles family
(41:21):
and the sweet simple things really are those are the
real things, compassion, tolerance, understanding, and love. So that's the
basis of modern prairie, and now it's just grown into
this thing.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
What do you think it is about this kind of
prairie aesthetic, the simplicity, this back to basics that is
so cozy for people. Is it nostalgia? Is it? Is
it just aesthetics? It's just nice to look at. It's
modern prairie. It's the nap dresses. There is a whole
(41:58):
cottage core thing happening.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Why do people love it so much as it is cozy?
I think I think we all really rediscovered cozy during
the lockdown too. I mean, I defy anyone to tell
me that they were doing zooms without pajama bottoms or sweatpants.
I mean we were dressing from the waist up for
whatever it was. And I think, you know, there's there's
value in that. When you can't get toilet paper, suddenly
(42:25):
everything else kind of falls away, right, I mean, manicures
are irrelevant, Eyelash extensions are irrelevant, going to the movies,
it's not important. What's really important is being able to
have contact with your loved ones, making sure they're safe
and comfortable and being comfortable yourself. Look, when that happened,
(42:45):
everybody was baking bread so much so that nobody could
get flour. That says something. Bread is the ultimate comfort food, right,
and it's the least expensive. It's been around for eons.
So bread is like the grounding, hardy, cozy food, and
we all went back to that. So I think modern
(43:07):
Prairie's space to remind people of that cozy basic wellmy war,
those nostalgic feelings brought up to the current times. Hence
the modern.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
There's also a beautiful comparison to be made in modern
Prairie is this community for mature women who are looking
at the next part of their life and thinking what
does this look like? And it was very similar for Laura.
She wanted something different in that last half of her life.
(43:42):
She was writing these books as a mature woman of
a certain age, and I think there's a really interesting
parallel there.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Did you think about that.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
When you were launching That's something that is kind of
a universal experience for all women. I think you guys
will find as you age to where I am now,
there's a it's not a midlife crisis, it's sort of
a not even midlife. I mean, who lives to be
a one hundred and sixteen ladies, It's a mid life
(44:12):
ree assessment, right, Am I doing what brings me joy?
Am I doing what makes me feel like I'm contributing
the most? Am I forcing myself to do something I
don't want to do? Laura definitely did that. It also
grew I think for her, based on historical research and
my research, it grew out of her place of necessity too,
(44:34):
because the craft in the teen's twenties wiped out the
entire family's finances, and Laura had the book, she had
been writing it, and necessity put them in a position
where she had to then actually make them sellable, which
is why they became children's books are young adult books.
(44:56):
So it was a combination of things. But I think
it really maybe not so intentionally Laura. Laura probably blazed
a trail into how to go through that kind of
transition from you know, farm wife with a true partnership
with her husband, which was also very unusual for that time.
I mean they were they did not do anything without
(45:18):
consulting one another, nor did they tell each other what
to do, which I thought was fascinating. They had a
really modern relationship. Laura al Manzo. Al Manzo actually, if anything,
she was the one in charge. I think, yes, I
think too, And I think we should make the book
people happy and call him by his real name.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
Well, it's interesting to me, Melissa, when you say so
much of modern prairie is prettiness, because just when you
said that, so much of Little House's prettiness, right, Like,
throughout all of the struggles she writes about, there's a
focus on pleasing things, right, the pleasing how pas scallops,
the paper on the shelves, and the sprigs of flowers
(45:59):
and the buttons, like, there is a real focus on
the details of prettiness throughout these horrible events. So that's
an interesting sort of crossover that I hadn't That made
me rethink sort of certain descriptions in the book.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Those maybe the things that we focus on when things
are hard, you know, let's look to that. And then again,
if you go back to the books, the way she
wrote about food, food was like a religion, you know,
and glorious. I mean, I remember reading those books when
I was eight nine years old and being hungry and
my mouth watering as I'm turning these pages and reading
(46:34):
about you know, maple candy and the snow and which
I've I made this year for the first time. Oh
how did it go? It was fascinating. It's taffy. It
doesn't get it. I thought it would get like crunchy,
but it's taffy. It hardens into like a almost like
a CARAMELI like a maple caramel. It's good. You have
(46:54):
to do it with butter, though it has to be
butter and maple.
Speaker 5 (46:57):
Serup?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Would you ever? I don't know?
Speaker 4 (47:00):
You I must you must have visited some of the
Laura houses over the years. Is there any potential of
modern prairie moving into these locations or or what was
that experience like of going to the houses?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Like funny that you bring that up, because it hadn't
even occurred to me to take Marbury. I mean, we're
not fricking mortar of any kind yet. So and and
you know, there there may be a world where we
collaborate with a specific museum to create something for them
through one of our makers. By the way, all of
the people who make our products, or women just saying
(47:32):
that's part of it. We're supporting female businesses. Also that
that's actually really important aspect of this. I have visited
them all. It has taken me a very long time.
When I did the Little House Musical, when I played Ma,
when I played Caroline, we if we were playing a
city that was within two three hours of a homestead,
(47:54):
the whole company would get in a bus and we
would all go. And so that was my first chance
to see this. Smet and Plum Creek and Walnut Grove
I did. We were nowhere near Mansfield, so I didn't
get to go. We went to Mansfield. My husband and
I went last year we were doing a number of
cross country drives and a year before last actually take
(48:18):
that back, and I decided to go when they were
closed for the day. So we went in, just the
two of us, and they opened the museum and the
houses for us. And that property, not just because it's
the most recent one in my memory, but that property
more than any of them is, especially because that's where
(48:39):
they're buried, and that's where Roses buried. That place really
got me because you could really that was their place,
you know, the counters in the kitchen that he cussed
and built, because she was so tiny. It was just
enchanting and it felt incredibly special being there, and we
(49:01):
were actually get a camp in the campground across the way,
and there was a tornado warning and so we decided
to drive to We drove to Saint Louis in this
insane storm and it was very I kept saying to Tim,
my husband, can you imagine doing this in a wagon?
I mean, we're in the cars blowing all over the
(49:22):
highway and there's hail and you know, tornadoes, god knows where.
It was pitch black, but just crazy weather. And all
I could think was what those crossings must have been
like for the Ingles family from South Dakota to Missouri,
to Florida to San Francisco to visit rows and there's
(49:46):
a toughness. I think that that also to that beauty
that we have to tap into as well. That that
was the thing too, is you know, I think one
of the things that came out of the pandemic and
the resurgence of or re appreciation of Little House is
there a reminder that if we can make it through that,
we can make it through this.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Everyone at all the houses loves you.
Speaker 4 (50:06):
By the way, just to pass on a little where
your ears burning your name was obviously came up frequently
in a very genuine and loving way. Ah, that's no
what Everyone had such nice things to say about you.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Oh well that's good. That's that mustn't me. And I
was in a good mood on the day. It would
be terrible if you sit mutely whipped to all those
places and they just don't like it. You were so.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
No, it came up. It came up without us asking
it was. I wasn't actually inquired or anything.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
It just came up out of And you know, when
you're out there, everybody there is very down to earth
and genuine.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
So yeah, there's pretense, there's no. They just love the
entire angles experience the family Lauren. And they are they
they are the keepers of the legacy. I mean I
look at those guys and I feel like a little
bit of a poser, you know. They they're in it.
They're touching her belongings on a daily basis, which I please.
(51:06):
When we were on tour with the musical, there was
one which place we went to, man, it was De
Smet and they took me into a vault and they
opened a drawer and pulled out one of her nightgowns
and let me touch it. And I just lost it.
I just I had step away, so I was afraid
I would get tears on the nightgown and that would
be bad.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
It.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
So that's that. I think that kind of in a nutshell,
goes back to your question about how I feel about
carrying this sort of mantle. I touch her nightgown and
I cry, so obviously there's a lot of weight there.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, we heard the fiddle being played and that felt.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Oh please. I had Michael still for years, which I
finally auctioned off one of the fiddles. There was a
prop and I could barely contain myself. I'd open the
case just to smell it.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Do you have thoughts on Rose?
Speaker 4 (51:58):
I mean, we asked everyone and because of course the
you know, the conspiracy. Did she write the books but
also Rose herself? It's a lot, But what are your
thoughts on Rose?
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Do you have any?
Speaker 1 (52:10):
I think that that based on all of the reading
I've done, in the research I've done, I think that
roses to Laura what Laura was to Ma. This is
like a generational evolution of rebellion that has passed on.
And I think that as much as Laura sort of
gave her mother fits in her wildness. Rose took it
(52:33):
so much further, and some of it was by choice
and some of it was just in her I think
from what I understand, you know, at that point in
her life, Laura in Mansfield had gone from being basically
a washer woman doing other people's laundry to a very
important member of society and a leader of the society,
(52:57):
and had reached this really interesting place in her life.
For the wild child, she was to be someone who
was so concerned about what other people thought of her
because she was so wildly uncomfortable with her daughter coming
home with a woman her pants wearing, smoking, divorced daughter
(53:18):
who really was living her life is her completely authentic self,
and coming into this world where everything was very rigid
and very you know, where Caroline had sort of that
religious church going fear of outsiders. Laura just didn't want
(53:40):
anyone to know that. She projected this image of who
she was, and I don't think Rose fit into that. However,
their relationship was so sympiotic, you know, their finances were
in twine, they were so in met I think that
they had, you know, a very complicated other daughter relationship
which we can all relate to if anybody could could
(54:02):
or possibly unravel the complications of any mother daughter relationship.
For me, I will give them a medal. It just
it is what it is. That's why God blessed me
with four sons. I do absolutely believe that Rose helped
craft the books. I don't think she wrote them. I
think she crafted them. I think she yeah. I mean,
if you read Pionaregirl, it's incredibly unwieldy, and I don't
(54:25):
think it would have sold back then. I think that
the editors were right. They needed to find a market.
I mean, people weren't spending money, so that it had
to be something special, and of course making it something
for children was entirely appropriate. And I think Rose really
helped to do that and to take these things apart
and put them back together. One hundred percent. I think
she was an absolute ghost editor. I don't think she
(54:45):
was a ghostwriter. I think many of us owe a
lot to Laura and Rose for being the trailblazers that
they were, what they did for female authors and what
they did for women in general by telling that their
sides of those stories and that history is major. I
don't know if we would have had a woman's voice
back then you know, if we would have been able
(55:06):
to look back on a woman's voice it had it
not been.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
For them, Melissa, We're so grateful.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
Thank you, Ah, thanks you guys. I so appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
This was fun, is it? Melissa? Amazing?
Speaker 3 (55:22):
We had such a great time talking to her. If
fulfilled a few childhood dreams in that room. We hope
you enjoyed this. If there's other guests we've talked to
throughout the show that you'd want to hear an extended
interview from, then tell.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
Us maybe we'll release more of these in the future.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
This episode was produced by me Emily Maronov as well
as Mary Do and Shina Ozaki. Sound design and mixing
was done by Amanda Brose Smith. Our wonderful theme and
additional music was composed by Elise McCoy. We are executive
produced by Glennis McNichol, Joe Piazza, Nikki e Tor and
Ali Perry. Thank you, as always to CDM Studios for
(56:03):
recording this conversation. This is the conversation that first paired
us with our guardian Angel engineer, Kathleen.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
We love you, Kathleen.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
If you haven't been following us on social media, Can
you even call yourself a Wilder fan? Get on their people,
Follow us on Instagram at Wilder Underscore podcast, and on
TikTok at Wilder Podcast.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
Thank you for listening.
Hello Wilder listeners, This is producer Emily taking over for
Glenneth today because we are still prepping for our final episode.
Thank you to everyone who's come this far with us,
and especially thank you to those who have reached out
to share about their relationship with Laura in their life.
We're incorporating a bunch of your feedback into our grand
finale episode. But while you wait for that, we have
(00:22):
a surprise for you. There are so many things we
haven't been able to include in this series. Moments from
the road, more background on Laura and Roses lives, and
of course all the fascinating things are guests said in interviews.
We wanted to release one of those full interviews, so
we present to you our extended Melissa Gilbert interview. If
(00:43):
you grew up loving The Little House television show, you
know Melissa Gilbert. I know that when Glennis first started
talking to me about a podcast about Laura Ingles Wilder,
the first image that popped up in my head was
ten year old Melissa running down that grassy hill with
braids of floral calico dress. Of course, now we know
that Laura is so many things, and no one understands
(01:06):
that legacy better than Melissa, who's been shouldering a part.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Of it for the past fifty years.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
We're so thankful that she was willing to talk to
us about what that experience has been like. Our conversation
ranged from her time on the TV show with Michael
Landon and the rest of the cast, to finding agency
as a young actor, to her business Modern Prairie, to
her activism, and even.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Her thoughts on Rose Wilder Lane.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
We spoke to Melissa over Zoom, where she came to
us from her home in the Catskills. By the way,
she now lives there in a very picturesque, cozy, homespun
Laura esque life. It was so great to talk to her.
We're so grateful she shared her time with us. We
hope you enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Thank you for agreeing to do this. We're so excited
that you here.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I'm thrilled. Nine year old me is beyond thrilled.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I must tell you, well, first of all, we should
have you introduced yourself, Melissa. I'm sure everyone's going to
recognize your voice when they listen to this, but you know,
for the purposes of three people who might not know
who you are, if you could just properly introduce yourself,
that would be really wonderful.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Uh Hi, I am Melissa Gilbert and I had the
incredible honor of playing Laura Ingalls Wilder Laura Ingles first,
and then Laura Ingles Wilder ultimately on Little House in
the Prairie, the television series.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
How did that come to happen?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
My first TV series? I was Everyron was gun Smoke.
That's how old I am. I think I was about
five or six at that point, and I really just
only did little jobs here and there because my parents
felt that meeting school was more important. But Little House
in the Prairie came along, and it was my mom's
favorite books, and I had read Little House in the
(02:57):
Big Woods and was starting to read Little House in
the Prairie that and I was pretty excited. And so
the decision was made that I would audition. And I
don't know what everyone else was thinking, but I knew
there were hundreds of girls auditioning too, so I figured
it's never going to happen. And then it just, you know,
was the ordinary process called back back, callback, callback screen test,
(03:17):
and I got the part, and the adventure began, and
what an adventure it was. It's been, you know, nearly
fifty years since we first aired, so it has been
dipty years since we shot the pilot. Not a day
goes by that I don't think about Little House in
the Prairie or mention something to do with Little House
in the Prey, or Laura or Rose or the Angles relatives,
(03:42):
or something that has something to do with them, and
they're so infused in my in my being at this point,
I want to.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Talk about that in a bit because I'm curious what
it's like to shoulder that legacy. But just going back
to the audition process, did you, during that process audition
with Michael Landon or any the other members of the
who eventually became the cast.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I did. I got to go in and read with
Michael early On. Kent McCrae, our producer, was there, and
Susan Sukman, who later became Susan McCrae was there, and
I remember Michael and the reason I remember Michael Lannon.
I went to a private school in Los Angeles, the
Buckley School, and I had auditioned and screen tested for
(04:24):
a Little House and didn't know if I'd gotten the part,
and I was at school one day in the lunch area,
and this other girl ran up to me and she said,
are you Melissa, And I said yeah. She said I'm
Leslie Landon. And my dad says, you're going to be Laura,
And nobody knew. My agents hadn't gotten a call yet.
My mother didn't know. I ran to the office because
sand there's no cell phones. Then I ran to the
(04:45):
office and said it was an emergency. I had to
call my mom, and my mom called my agents, and
my agents called the network, and Leslie got so grounded,
so grounded. We're still friends to this day. But when
I auditioned, I didn't know who Michael Lennon was. I'd
never watched Bonanza. My family was beside themselves. My grandfather,
who was, you know, a very famous comedy writer and
(05:07):
is all right, sent a note over to Michael and
he knew him from writing the Dean Martin roasts. And
my grandfather actually typed out my audition scenes for me
on his typewriter, and my mom and my godmother, my grandmother,
everybody were They were all hysterical. And I was going
to meet this Michael Landon who was supposed to be
just the best and the most handsome and so talented,
(05:28):
and I didn't know, and I went into the room
when I first saw him, and soon as I met him,
I knew exactly why they were all hysterical. He just
he glowed, you know, he just he had it undeniable.
And the first time I heard him laugh, he had
the best laugh of any human I've ever been around,
aside from my kids and grandkids, who their laughs killed me.
(05:51):
But his laugh was just so, this could be it.
And then I found out later too, after the screen
test that when they took this great tests to show
it to NBC to the network, Michael only took mine
and basically said, if it's not her, then we can't
do it, which is wow. I'm glad I didn't know
that at the time. That would have been a lot
(06:12):
for a nine year old to carry, but now looking back,
it's immensely appreciated.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Well, speaking of a.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Lot for a nine year old to carry, you know,
we spoke to Alison Arngrim and Karen Grassley, who both
brought up on their own what an extraordinary presence you
were as a nine year old. Like Alison Arngrim talks
about meeting you for the first time, and I think
described you as being sort of like a firecracker, but
just how in command of yourself and.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
How I guess in control.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
You were almost like that you were very powerful force
and really knew exactly what you wanted and what was expected.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Is that do you remember it like that?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I knew what my job was and I rejoiced that.
I rejoiced then doing it. I love that job. I
still love that job. I love to act. I have
you know now at this point it had and have
at least eight other careers. Acting is the one thing
that doesn't necessarily come the easiest, but fits the best
(07:24):
and brings me the most satisfaction. And so as a
kid it was just as as maybe commanding and in
control as they described me being. I felt like I
was as full of wonder at the same time. I mean,
I just everything was a marvel to me. The fact
that they brought me boots that had buttons and they
had to teach me how to use a button hook
(07:45):
to button those high button boots. They were legitimately button boots,
no hidden zippers, and that to me was like the
best game of dress up in the world. I mean,
I there were for real cows and real horror says,
and real chickens and other kids to play with. And
we were outside, I think more than they were inside.
(08:08):
And there were all these great grown ups around who
were like a bunch of crazy aunts and uncles. And
there were all these wonderful men on the crew who
taught me how to ride horses and would throw me
in the air and catch me. I mean, it was
heaven for a kid. I even loved going to school
on the set, you know, I dilly dally. There was
(08:29):
there was, I mean, it was common knowledge with the
assistant directors. They'd have to always say, hey, half Pipe
go to school, because that was like the thing, Halfpipe
go to school. And it would just trickle down to
the whole crew where I'd be standing again, and you go,
h Halfpipe go to school, and it would, you know,
one by one, I'd walk by everyone. But even that part,
even the school part, was great. I loved my teacher,
(08:49):
missus Venir. I loved being in the classroom with Alison
when she was there. She got to go to regular
school more than I did, but it was a really
fun environment. And then being able to work with all
of those extraordinary actors and crew, the adults, and to
(09:10):
be considered their peer while we were working was an
honor actually and very I didn't feel burdened by it ever.
I felt like it was gifted to me, like this
was a tremendous responsibility, but they were giving me the
responsibility because they knew I could do it, and that
made me feel really good about myself as an actor.
(09:33):
So he felt very supported on the set always. I
never felt pushed or forced to do anything I didn't
want to do. It was a very as kid friendly
as a set could be. This was the kid friendliest.
We were contained, but we weren't caged certainly.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Allison said that one of the things she remembered about
Michael was people ask her that he respected her as
a as a worker, you know, like he respected There
was a lot of respect that you towards the child actors,
that that they were getting paid and they were here
to do a job as opposed to handholding.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I guess was the sense I got.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
It was the same with anyone as long as we
did our job, because we were not at We've our
crew loved blessedly because they've been together so long since
some since high Chaparral and then Bonanza and then Little House.
They worked really really fast. There wasn't any time for delays.
(10:32):
So as long as we were professional adults and children
alike and knew our lines, our jobs, what we had
to do, and everything went smoothly, that was great. But
if someone came in and didn't know or was unprofessional
in any way, it wouldn't last very long and they'd
be gone, And it didn't matter if they were a
kid or an adult. There was just no time for unprofessionalism.
(10:54):
When you say the crew called you half pint, that
just sort of stood out to me. Was there because
you're so young?
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Was there sort of like a bleeding over of your
character into your sort of idea of yourself and your
relationship with Michael and the relationship Laura has with Pa.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Was that it ever sort of confusing or it was.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Never confusing, It was always really clear. I mean, I
had my own father who I adored, but my father
passed away when I was eleven, so two years into
the series, I was nurturing this relationship on camera with Michael.
When my father died, and our families were all really close,
my parents were divorced and my mother was remarried, but
(11:36):
my mom and my stepdad and Michael and his wife
Lynn and their kids and and our family, we all
vacation together. We went to Hawaii on Spring break together.
We had New Year's Eves together. We slept over each
other's houses. So our relationship transcended just work. We were tight.
And Michael, I always looked at him as a father,
(11:59):
being you and mentor. But never was I confused between
which one was my daddy and which one was And
I call him my paw and he is. I mean,
that's my paw. And my dad is my dad, and
my birth father is my birth father. So you know
I'm able to keep straight. I'm adopted, so I have
all these relationships that I'm very well able to keep straight.
(12:20):
I know exactly the who. And oddly enough, for all
of these wonderful men that have come in and out
of my life, most of them have passed away, they're
all still sort of there in me and an inspiration
in so many ways. Michael, especially you.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Wrote in your book about him directing you and sort
of getting you into the emotion. There was so much crime,
There was so much crying on that show, I mean
from him as much as any as much as anyone else.
I'm just curious, like looking, I have no sense, but
like the sort of the sense of maybe emotional. I
don't know if manipulation is too strong a word, but
how how he would get you or any other of
(12:58):
the kid actors sort of into place to access that
emotion or as a kid, do you have access to
it more easily?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
For me?
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I mean, I think I've always been a bit of
an EmPATH, even as a kid, so accessing that kind
of emotion was never difficult for me.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
But it is.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I mean, on a week by week basis shooting a
show like Little House in the Prairie, there's always someone crying,
crying or running or running and crying at the same time,
which I seemed to do in every episode, crying and
running and running and crying. And there were times where
it was those emotions were hard to tap into, and
when those times would happen, Michael could kind of sense
(13:35):
it if he was there. And there were many many
times where one that comes into mind, especially where I
was having a hard time and just not quite in it,
and he kind of cut everything and stopped everything and said, cure,
take a walk. With me and walk me away from
the set, and by the time he got about, I
don't know, twenty feet away, he knelt down in front
of me and he had tears streaming down his face
(13:57):
and he looked at me and he said, do you
have any idea how much I love you? And I
started crying. He said, okay, you're ready, can we go
do the scene now?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Now?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, it was definitely manipulative, but was it in a
bad way? I don't know about that. I think that
he knew what I needed to get where I needed
to go to do my job that day, and I
didn't walk away from it feeling weird or bad or
in hindsight as a as a highly therapized adult looking
(14:29):
back on that, I don't think. You know, there were
things that we did in the Little House that I
look back on and go, well, that was maybe weird
or odd or I should not have been put in
that uncomfortable position, But this was not one of those times.
This is actually, as an adult, I wish I had
directors like that around. When I'm, you know, having a
hard time getting into something, sometimes you knell a little boost.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Alison talked about feeling that her character allowed her a
safe space to express anger. And just you talking about
losing your father when you were eleven, if it was
a sort of safe space to express complicated grief.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Oh, one hundred percent. We were not great at grief
at home. I grew up in a family where those
sort of feelings, sadness and anger are considered bad, and
so we don't do that, and so crying is back
then was considered like a bad thing to do, and
don't let the kids cry, and they shouldn't cry, and
(15:24):
they shouldn't so we didn't talk about it. We didn't
really share feelings, not like we do now, and certainly
not like I did with my kids. A perfect example
is when my youngest son's pet mouse died and I
insisted that we have an actual funeral for the mouse,
and the kids didn't even want it, but I wanted
them to have a moment to greet the mouse. I
compensated for clearly, for stuff that I was missing. But
(15:46):
I did have that outlet on the set, and that
was that was a wonderful thing.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
The other kind of odd thing was after my father died,
the family edict of not discussing it carry it through
to the work. The adults were told not to discuss
it with me, probably because it would have made it
hard for me to do my job, which would have
delayed and cost a lot of You know, this is
a business, and I don't remember anyone being particularly overly
(16:13):
solicitous or extra nice or anything. It's just sort of regular.
But there were a couple extra hugs here and there
during those months and during that time, and if I
look back now, I can I remember that growd was
kind of looking at me and clocking me and making
sure that I was okay.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
What when you say some of the situations you feel
like maybe you shouldn't have been put in. I know
you wrote about Dean Butler being cast, you know, as Almonzo.
I have to say, in doing the podcast, it made
me rethink those episodes where you get married, because even
the character was quite young, and I was young when
(16:51):
I was watching it, so I thought sixteen was very old,
but even as a grown up, I'd never actually thought
it was. In that interview with him, I think I thought,
you're right, I mean, so young and young for you
to be put in a position with a grown man.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
What do you think about that now?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Looking back, Well, I can tell you from the lens
of today, you can't do that. There's no way they
could shoot it. There's no way they would cast it
that way, and there's certainly no way it would be
handled the way it was handled, not with you know.
Now we have intimacy coordinators and we have all this
dialogue around being comfortable and feeling safe, which is amazing.
(17:29):
Nobody talked to me about it. It was just it
was nobody said, are you uncomfortable? Are you okay?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Is this all right?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
It was just I remember being told that the Almonzo
episodes were coming. Correct pronunciation, by the way, is al
Manzo anyway? So I remember being told al Manso was coming,
and my assumption was, you know, because Laura and al
Manzo were not far apart in age in real life,
not massively, so my assumption was there'd be someone coming.
(17:58):
It was close in age to me, maybe one of
my contemporaries. And then when they told me that it
was Dean and they showed me a picture and then
he came to the set, I was taken aback because
my first thought was that's a man. I mean, I
can't even tell you what a girl I was. I
mean I was a gidget. I was a tomboy. I
was fourteen, fifteen years old, knock kneed, bucktooth, still had
(18:21):
braces on, wasn't allowed to shave my things. Here comes
this guy who shaves his face and then drives a car.
I hadn't been on a date and kissed a boy.
Fortunately we had a little run up to the actual
marriage and stuff. But by the time we got to
the Sweet sixteen episode and the first kiss and all
of that, it was you know, I knew Dean, and
I liked Dean, and I got along with Dean, but
(18:42):
I still felt like I was out of my element,
to put it mildly, and yet I powered through and
I did it. But looking back in hindsight, if I
were producing or directing or the parent, it would have
been completely different for my kid. Again, it's a reflection
(19:03):
of the times and where we were. And you know,
you watch it now and it doesn't look weird even
to me, And I'm watching it, going, oh god, I
was so uncomfortable that day, but you know it didn't
bother me at all. I'm climbing into bed with this
grown up man and I still hadn't been on a
date yet and we're having babies, and I did I
(19:24):
think at that point I had kissed a boy.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Wow, that's wild.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I mean I think thinking back to how I watched
it with it wasn't just that I wasn't questioning it.
I don't recall anyone questioning it at the time. No,
or even when I in reruns all through my team,
like there was no there was no any anyone saying.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Well, maybe think about this.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
It's almost like Laura went from she hit puberty and
then she was married.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
There was very little.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Experience and there was a very little, you know, difference
between It's almost like they didn't know what to do
with you once.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I think that's true. I think that you know, there
comes a time where you've you got to contribute to
the family, and the only way to do that at
that time is to either be a teacher or get
married or both, because there were no other opportunities for women.
So that it is a reflection of the actual time.
But I would defy anyone. I don't care who it is.
(20:16):
I don't care if it's Tom Hanks or Steven Spielberg
to go to a studio or a network and say
we're going to do a show where the fifteen year
old marries the twenty six year old.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
The fifteen year old in real life, not even like
a twenty two year old who can fast for fifteen
exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
But now yeah, no, no, no, no no no, I
just don't. You can't do it now and again, like
I said, though when you watch it even today, it
doesn't look odd and it certainly didn't appear awkward for
either of us. But it was very awkward for me
and uncomfortable. And I did do things like in scripts
that would come down the pike that said, you know,
(20:54):
and they kiss, I would go sneaking in and see,
can be change it to hug please? But I had
to advocate for myself because the adults were not having
the conversation with me.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And but you were listened to to some extent, I was.
I was definitely listened to.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I can feel myself getting like getting shy and embarrassed
again like I did then I did. I did a
lot of blushing.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
I mean, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
I think two, what we're hitting on is like in
some of those episodes that dealt with women. It felt
the show, even at the time, felt a little aggressive,
and then some episodes that dealt with race or even
the amount of black people who were cast in the
show felt very ahead of its time. The episode with Solomon,
you know, frequently I see it come across you know,
(21:41):
social media.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
What do you hear about the.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Most that, especially after COVID, you know, when everyone was
kind of going back to Little House and they were
watching Quarantine and Plague and all of those episodes that
we did that summer of twenty twenty, when the contry
was going through with the country, the world was going
through that massive social upheaval and unrest all around George
(22:06):
Floyd and Breonna Taylor and all of the horrible injustices
that were going on, the Wisdom of Solomon came up
a lot, and I was hearing on Twitter from people
like Jamie Fox and Biola Davis who knew Little House
in the Prairie was so woke, and I'm sitting and hungry.
I did. I did. I knew because I had to
do that scene where I had to try and wipe
(22:27):
the black off of Todd Bridges's face, and I hated.
I asked not to do it. I said to Michael,
I can't do that. That's horrible. Who does that? He said, yeah,
but we're trying to show people how wrong it is
to be ignorant and how open Laura is to learning
something new. And I said, okay, well then I'll do it.
(22:48):
But you're I mean, I had to say, you're a
real Negro person and wipe the black off with his face.
Was absurd to me. But once it was explained that
this is what we were doing and the lessons we
were teaching, that was impactful to me because I realized
that our show was more than just Laura's story. It
(23:08):
was the story of our time at that time. Remember
this was the seventies and the country was going through
a great deal of civil unrest, the Civil Rights movement,
the er I was post Vietnam. We did an episode
about the soldier's return, Richard Mulligan playing the Civil War
veteran coming home addicted to morphine while all of these
(23:30):
veterans were coming back from Vietnam addicted to heroin. It
was the very timely and topical the episodes we did
dealing with anti semitism and nativism and the rights of
Native Americans. I mean, these are themes that keep coming
back and coming back and coming back, and we even
touched on women's rights and chauvinism and the mistreatment of
(23:50):
women at the same time while marginalizing women to do
nothing but poor coffee, sometimes for many episodes at a time.
One of the most stawn feminists I know was Karen Gressley,
who was one of the great coffee pourers of all time.
But then every once in a while they'd give her
an episode where she put her foot down and said,
well and remind Pa that she is his partner and
(24:12):
not just his property. But again, we're reflecting the eighteen
hundreds when women had zero rights, and a reflection of
the nineteen seventies where women had maybe a half a
point of rights.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
But still, you know, certainly not where we are today
and not where we need to be. Welcome back to
(24:49):
our conversation with Melissa Gilbert. There were so many points
we couldn't get to in our already lengthy episode on
the television series, and something that we only slightly touched
on were the comp all occasions of Michael Landon as
a person. If you're a little house diehard, you might
know that Karen Grassley, who played Caroline Ingoles on the
show came out with a memoir a few years back
(25:11):
that detailed a bitter contract dispute between her and Michael
over her salary, and she also opened up about the
general misogyny on.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
The Little House set in the seventies and eighties.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Unsure of how those dynamics might have affected the kids
on set, we asked.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Melissa what she thought of all this.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Now, were you aware as a kid?
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I know just from talking to other cast members that
the kids shot during the day and then some of
the grown up scenes were shot sort of after the
kids went home. But were we ever aware of the
tension that Karen Grassley wrote about in her book between
her and Michael and sort of the contract dispute.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I wasn't aware of the contract dispute. I was aware
of the misogynistic humor by and large, not just Michael,
as the entire all of the men of the crew.
And I heard the jokes and they were some of
them were horrible and completely inappropriate. You know, those sets
(26:09):
are tend to be very rible body places anyway. But
the anti women, or the demeaning of women, I should
say jokes didn't impact me because I sort of didn't
Some of them I didn't actually understand either, but like
some of them were pretty raunchy, and I could see
Karen stiffen and bristle and eye roll and walk away,
(26:33):
and I knew that that was inappropriate and was making
her feel bad and or angry. And I knew that
that was wrong. I didn't. I was a kid, it
wasn't I'm not going to get in the middle of
the adults. I didn't in the middle of my parents arguing.
So I wasn't about to get in the middle of
my mom pa either. It's not my place in MI insight.
I think you know. I read her book one hundred
(26:55):
percent her experience, and it is a legitimate experience. Actually
had lunch, oh gosh a while back with Jen Landon,
and it was right when Karen's book came out, and
she said to me, I don't understand what all the
hooplaw is with all the Michael Landon supporters who are
mad at Karen for telling the truth. She said, I
(27:15):
totally imagine my dad was a misogynist back then. That's
just the way it was. He was that guy. Doesn't
mean that he's evil, it was just he was a
reflection of his times. I mean, one of the things
I think about often is what sort of television would
Michael Lander be making now after the last few years.
(27:36):
And I don't think it would be anything. He would
be functioning the way he did then, and I think
he'd be telling stories that are timely and important and topical.
I think he'd be appalled at what's going on in
the world today in many many ways, or at least
I hope. But based on what I know of that man,
he would have grown with the times.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
You can see evidence of that in some of the
episodes and also touched by an Angel. I mean in
certain way, he was so progressive, so much crying. It
was so he cried so much all the time, and
I think that is progressive. For he was also, you know, shirtless,
oiled up, with perfect hair, and I think the collision
of those two things is.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
A contradiction.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yes, I think so too. But he was a contradiction
as well. This was a man who who espoused family
values and community values and was married three times and
had children with three different women, and was deeply flawed
and human. But who isn't doesn't mean he's a bad person.
It just means he's a human person, and he tried
(28:38):
to tell stories that he felt were important and impactful.
It's all you can ask from the filmmaker. What are
the episodes you hear about the most? I hear about
The Lord is My Shepherd a lot. It's my favorite too,
and it's very hard for me to watch sometimes. It's
even hard for me to talk about it. In fact,
I can sort of feel like a lump in my throne. Now.
I hear about Bunny and the race. People really dig
(29:03):
the wheelchair push down the hill.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
That's the only time my mother walked into the family
room and said, Laura seems mean. And I was like,
Laura's amazing, and my mother said, I don't. I don't
think that was a nice thing to do, and then
exited the room.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Well, Laura was pushed to the brink. And I'll tell
you Alison got her revenge. Many years ago. I had
to go in for a colonoscopee and she took me
and when it was over, they wouldn't let me walk
out of the surgery center. I had to go out
a wheelchair and she pushed it and she kept threatening
(29:38):
to shut me down a number of different hills that day,
even though I didn't. I said, I, you know something,
my fallow, I didn't write it.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Let me do that.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
The other thing I hear about a lot too is
the mud fight people like a lot when Alison and
I got physical.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Yeah, I mean, I actually hear that from a lot
of fans, and I think, I mean, and there's one
of appeal to that, But I think it was having
girls express sort of like complicated emotions to each other
and that jealousy and competition, which felt very recognizable at
that age.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I think the other thing that that that informed those performances,
and maybe the audience was getting it subliminally, was that
we really loved each other dearly. And I've always said,
you know, you don't really have to necessarily get along
all that well with someone you're doing a love scene with,
but boy, you have to love and trust the person
you're doing a fight sing with.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
I'm curiously how sort of I just want to talk
a bit about your you know, after a little house career,
the it feels like the professionalism of that set set
you up well because then you became you know, president
of SAG, you ran for office.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Are the are there.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Direct connections between coming off that experience that moved you
into sort of other positions of power.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
There was a step in the middle that happened actually
when I was fourteen. My mother took me to meet
with a manager man named ray Cats Raymond Katz. He
established my production company then when I was fourteen, Half
Pint Productions, and asked what stories I wanted to tell,
(31:17):
what characters I wanted to play, and my mom and
I had talked about it before I went in, and
we talked about doing The Miracle Worker and me playing
Helen Keller, and that started while we were doing Little House.
So I was actually producing and starring in my own
films before Little House ended. So we did the Mira
Porker Diary Friend Frank Splunder in the Grass, and that
Little House ended and we continued working. So I learned
(31:38):
how to produce at that time too. And also remember
I wasn't just there working and playing. I was also
on the Little House set, watching Michael and Kent and
watching the crew and learning everybody's jobs, which was something
Michael wanted me to do. I knew what the greensmen did,
I knew what the Cress Services people did. I knew
what the wranglers did. I knew what everyone's job was,
(31:58):
so I had a respect for that sort of team.
And when we went to do our own productions, we
actually just took the little house crew with us. We
had that same fantastic land and work ethic in the
Half Pint productions as well. And so as I got older,
I got more and more involved, and eventually, many many
years later, ran and got elected as the President of
(32:19):
Screen Actors Guild. And while I was there, I got
elected to the executive Council of the afl CIO and
the California Film Commission, and so I really got involved
in the political realm, and that just seemed a natural progression.
Many many years later, when I was asked to run
for office, I thought, well, yeah, like, I think I
(32:40):
can do this. It's supposed to be by the people
for the people, right, so I'm the people.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Why not Do you think about doing it again?
Speaker 1 (32:48):
No, I doubt I think I was rescued. I think
my neck, which decided to give out and I needed
to have a third massive spinal surgery, had to drop
out of the race. That was twenty sixteen. It was
kind of a it would have been a really difficult
ear to a couple of years to serve and travel
(33:10):
back and forth, obviously with my neck, but also with
the political climate just worsening and worsening and worsening. I
think that I was saved from having to deal with
a lot more emotional turmoil than I do from a distance.
Does not mean I'm not completely involved in I'm on
the Democratic Committee up here. I'm very involved in the
issues that I'm passionate about, and I think I can
(33:33):
do a lot more work on the ground. I would
rather be on the ground in a protest than in
a chamber making those kinds of decisions and trying to
pass laws in a system that's clearically broken and is
not getting anywhere no matter what we do. The pendulum swings,
the pendulum swings, the pendulum s faith, it's and it's
just it's too frustrating. I feel like I can do much.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
More from here. What has it been like for you?
You to shoulder the legacy of Laura. I was thinking
of sort of like Anne of green Gables and Megan.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Fellows that Anna green Gables is a fictional character, but
you like Laura Ingles Wilder making the decision at age
sixty five to sit down and write her life story
has impacted your life in such enormous ways, it's hard
to grasp, Like, what is it like.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
To shoulder all of that?
Speaker 5 (34:25):
Really?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
I mean, it sounds so trite to say this, but
it is what it is. It's what I've been given,
and it is a gift. I do feel very honored
to have been chosen, and I do feel very blessed
that this is my life. Because of it, I feel
a certain responsibility to the stories, to the legacy of
Laura and the Ingles family and Rose and everyone around her.
(34:50):
It's interesting my husband and I were talking about this
sort of subject recently because the first three characters really
that I played of import in my life life our
Lora Angeles Wilder, Helen Keller, and Ann Frank, not only
to those tremendous acting opportunities, but all three of those
women or people have monstrous legacies, I mean unbelievable import
(35:16):
to the world, and not just to America but to
the world. And so I think if I get too
caught up in shouldering the responsibility of that, I'll feel very,
very weighted down. I felt a lot more responsibility to
behave like a nice young lady in public when you know,
when I really just kind of wanted to be a
(35:37):
bit of a wild child myself in my late teens
and early twenties. I remember, actually, when I was a kid,
I bought one letter. I wasn't allowed to read my
fan mail, which is a good thing. There was one
letter that I got a hold of when I was
about fifteen that had been hidden from me. I think
it came when I was about twelve. It was from
a little girl who wrote and said, I wish I
(35:58):
could be more like you, because my dad said he
would hit me less if I was. And I'm really
glad I didn't see that till I was older. But still,
that's like, that's a lot for a kid, so they
were right to keep that from me.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
That's a lot for anyone. That'd be a lot for you.
Right now, These are the.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Things that women will come up to me cry and say,
you know, my childhood was miserable. I was molested by
an uncle. And little house in the prairie was my escape.
And I love that and I appreciate it, and I
am there for it. But I can only do so
much of that, and then I'm just depleted. You know,
it's like being a therapist a little bit. Wow, it
(36:37):
was a big show. It was a really it's an honor.
It's a treasured responsibility, is the best way to put it.
And I hope it continues in so many different ways too.
I would love to continue telling the stories, living these stories,
bringing these stories to life. We'll see you know.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
From our last episode, you know that Melissa Gilbert has
most recently carried on Laura's legacy with her lifestyle brand,
Modern Prairie.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Our producer and co host Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Piazza stepped in to ask Melissa how it came to be.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
Yeah, I mean I love it, by the way, I
love everything on the site.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
I want it all.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
I want to decorate my cabin with Modern Prairie. But
I want to hear a little bit about how it
came to be. How did this become a business?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I have had this sort of little hatchling of an
idea for a couple decades that there's something more to
do with just the entire sort of prairie ethos. There
was it all for me. It starts with them, of
all objects, a butterbell and if you don't know what
a butter bell is a butter keeper is I actually
(37:59):
have one I'm looking at right now. It's a ceramic
holder for butter. You put the butter in it, and
you put it in the croc and you put it
upside down in water, and it keeps your butter fresh
and soft without having to refrigerate it. And they've been
around for eons. People look at them and go, oh
my god, that's so cool. And I always thought, let's
create something around a butterbell and go from there and
(38:20):
take us back to these sweet, simple things, which really
are the best things after all, just full on Loura
angles Wilder celebration. But how do we do this? And
so I had conversations with the branding department at the
agency and put together decks of ideas of things that
these could be. And it kind of came and went,
(38:41):
came and went, but it was always in the back
of my mind. And two years ago, on my birthday,
I had friends over up here, my friends Johnny and Roswell,
who are the first friends we made up here, and
I was talking about this idea for this retail line
kind of lifestyle the little house I don't know, and
I said, I want to do this, and I showed
(39:01):
them the deck. They went and Johnny said, I know
this woman, Nicole o'hazi, who has a company who's looking
for something like this. Let me connect you to well.
Nicole and I got along like a house of fire,
like instantaneously, and we had a few conversations about what
it could be, and she came back to me with
her version of it, which was a bajillion times better
(39:22):
than my deck, and we signed papers and said let's go.
And it really started out as yes, a retail line
sort of, but there's more to it than that. It's
a place for obviously women over a certain age, the
mature woman like me, and it's not just about buying things.
(39:45):
It's now grown into a community. And what's fascinating to me.
You know, we have all these workshops and everything from
you know, how to paint with watercolor, to how to
deal with grief during the holidays, to how to get unstuck,
which is a big thing with women over a certain age.
You know, their kids are gone. We're reassessing what we
(40:08):
want to do with this last third of our lives.
Do we want to stay in the business we're in,
Do we want to follow our passion? Do we want
to travel?
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Are we?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Are we alone? Are we caring for aging parents? Are
we you know, all of these things that we're dealing
with at this part in our lives. There's no space
for a community for people to talk about these things.
So we started this sort of we created this space
with these workshops, and in the beginning, you know, we
have these very deep emotional workshops. While it's reached a
(40:37):
point where they're talking to each other and supporting each
other through transitions, through changes, through they're becoming a community.
And what's kind of the heart of Prairie for me
is the community aspect. There's nothing more reassuring than knowing
that you're not the only one who's experiencing whatever it is,
(40:59):
whether it's a most physical, psychological, doesn't matter. To know
that there are people who've gone through ahead of you,
and that there are people coming up behind you who
will follow in your footsteps and come to you for
that advice. That's what community is, and we support each
other and we it's about love, and that's again it
goes back to Lourer Engles Wilder and the Engles family
(41:21):
and the sweet simple things really are those are the
real things, compassion, tolerance, understanding, and love. So that's the
basis of modern prairie, and now it's just grown into
this thing.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
What do you think it is about this kind of
prairie aesthetic, the simplicity, this back to basics that is
so cozy for people. Is it nostalgia? Is it? Is
it just aesthetics? It's just nice to look at. It's
modern prairie. It's the nap dresses. There is a whole
(41:58):
cottage core thing happening.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Why do people love it so much as it is cozy?
I think I think we all really rediscovered cozy during
the lockdown too. I mean, I defy anyone to tell
me that they were doing zooms without pajama bottoms or sweatpants.
I mean we were dressing from the waist up for
whatever it was. And I think, you know, there's there's
value in that. When you can't get toilet paper, suddenly
(42:25):
everything else kind of falls away, right, I mean, manicures
are irrelevant, Eyelash extensions are irrelevant, going to the movies,
it's not important. What's really important is being able to
have contact with your loved ones, making sure they're safe
and comfortable and being comfortable yourself. Look, when that happened,
(42:45):
everybody was baking bread so much so that nobody could
get flour. That says something. Bread is the ultimate comfort food, right,
and it's the least expensive. It's been around for eons.
So bread is like the grounding, hardy, cozy food, and
we all went back to that. So I think modern
(43:07):
Prairie's space to remind people of that cozy basic wellmy war,
those nostalgic feelings brought up to the current times. Hence
the modern.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
There's also a beautiful comparison to be made in modern
Prairie is this community for mature women who are looking
at the next part of their life and thinking what
does this look like? And it was very similar for Laura.
She wanted something different in that last half of her life.
(43:42):
She was writing these books as a mature woman of
a certain age, and I think there's a really interesting
parallel there.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Did you think about that.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
When you were launching That's something that is kind of
a universal experience for all women. I think you guys
will find as you age to where I am now,
there's a it's not a midlife crisis, it's sort of
a not even midlife. I mean, who lives to be
a one hundred and sixteen ladies, It's a mid life
(44:12):
ree assessment, right, Am I doing what brings me joy?
Am I doing what makes me feel like I'm contributing
the most? Am I forcing myself to do something I
don't want to do? Laura definitely did that. It also
grew I think for her, based on historical research and
my research, it grew out of her place of necessity too,
(44:34):
because the craft in the teen's twenties wiped out the
entire family's finances, and Laura had the book, she had
been writing it, and necessity put them in a position
where she had to then actually make them sellable, which
is why they became children's books are young adult books.
(44:56):
So it was a combination of things. But I think
it really maybe not so intentionally Laura. Laura probably blazed
a trail into how to go through that kind of
transition from you know, farm wife with a true partnership
with her husband, which was also very unusual for that time.
I mean they were they did not do anything without
(45:18):
consulting one another, nor did they tell each other what
to do, which I thought was fascinating. They had a
really modern relationship. Laura al Manzo. Al Manzo actually, if anything,
she was the one in charge. I think, yes, I
think too, And I think we should make the book
people happy and call him by his real name.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
Well, it's interesting to me, Melissa, when you say so
much of modern prairie is prettiness, because just when you
said that, so much of Little House's prettiness, right, Like,
throughout all of the struggles she writes about, there's a
focus on pleasing things, right, the pleasing how pas scallops,
the paper on the shelves, and the sprigs of flowers
(45:59):
and the buttons, like, there is a real focus on
the details of prettiness throughout these horrible events. So that's
an interesting sort of crossover that I hadn't That made
me rethink sort of certain descriptions in the book.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Those maybe the things that we focus on when things
are hard, you know, let's look to that. And then again,
if you go back to the books, the way she
wrote about food, food was like a religion, you know,
and glorious. I mean, I remember reading those books when
I was eight nine years old and being hungry and
my mouth watering as I'm turning these pages and reading
(46:34):
about you know, maple candy and the snow and which
I've I made this year for the first time. Oh
how did it go? It was fascinating. It's taffy. It
doesn't get it. I thought it would get like crunchy,
but it's taffy. It hardens into like a almost like
a CARAMELI like a maple caramel. It's good. You have
(46:54):
to do it with butter, though it has to be
butter and maple.
Speaker 5 (46:57):
Serup?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Would you ever? I don't know?
Speaker 4 (47:00):
You I must you must have visited some of the
Laura houses over the years. Is there any potential of
modern prairie moving into these locations or or what was
that experience like of going to the houses?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Like funny that you bring that up, because it hadn't
even occurred to me to take Marbury. I mean, we're
not fricking mortar of any kind yet. So and and
you know, there there may be a world where we
collaborate with a specific museum to create something for them
through one of our makers. By the way, all of
the people who make our products, or women just saying
(47:32):
that's part of it. We're supporting female businesses. Also that
that's actually really important aspect of this. I have visited
them all. It has taken me a very long time.
When I did the Little House Musical, when I played Ma,
when I played Caroline, we if we were playing a
city that was within two three hours of a homestead,
(47:54):
the whole company would get in a bus and we
would all go. And so that was my first chance
to see this. Smet and Plum Creek and Walnut Grove
I did. We were nowhere near Mansfield, so I didn't
get to go. We went to Mansfield. My husband and
I went last year we were doing a number of
cross country drives and a year before last actually take
(48:18):
that back, and I decided to go when they were
closed for the day. So we went in, just the
two of us, and they opened the museum and the
houses for us. And that property, not just because it's
the most recent one in my memory, but that property
more than any of them is, especially because that's where
(48:39):
they're buried, and that's where Roses buried. That place really
got me because you could really that was their place,
you know, the counters in the kitchen that he cussed
and built, because she was so tiny. It was just
enchanting and it felt incredibly special being there, and we
(49:01):
were actually get a camp in the campground across the way,
and there was a tornado warning and so we decided
to drive to We drove to Saint Louis in this
insane storm and it was very I kept saying to Tim,
my husband, can you imagine doing this in a wagon?
I mean, we're in the cars blowing all over the
(49:22):
highway and there's hail and you know, tornadoes, god knows where.
It was pitch black, but just crazy weather. And all
I could think was what those crossings must have been
like for the Ingles family from South Dakota to Missouri,
to Florida to San Francisco to visit rows and there's
(49:46):
a toughness. I think that that also to that beauty
that we have to tap into as well. That that
was the thing too, is you know, I think one
of the things that came out of the pandemic and
the resurgence of or re appreciation of Little House is
there a reminder that if we can make it through that,
we can make it through this.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Everyone at all the houses loves you.
Speaker 4 (50:06):
By the way, just to pass on a little where
your ears burning your name was obviously came up frequently
in a very genuine and loving way. Ah, that's no
what Everyone had such nice things to say about you.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Oh well that's good. That's that mustn't me. And I
was in a good mood on the day. It would
be terrible if you sit mutely whipped to all those
places and they just don't like it. You were so.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
No, it came up. It came up without us asking
it was. I wasn't actually inquired or anything.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
It just came up out of And you know, when
you're out there, everybody there is very down to earth
and genuine.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
So yeah, there's pretense, there's no. They just love the
entire angles experience the family Lauren. And they are they
they are the keepers of the legacy. I mean I
look at those guys and I feel like a little
bit of a poser, you know. They they're in it.
They're touching her belongings on a daily basis, which I please.
(51:06):
When we were on tour with the musical, there was
one which place we went to, man, it was De
Smet and they took me into a vault and they
opened a drawer and pulled out one of her nightgowns
and let me touch it. And I just lost it.
I just I had step away, so I was afraid
I would get tears on the nightgown and that would
be bad.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
It.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
So that's that. I think that kind of in a nutshell,
goes back to your question about how I feel about
carrying this sort of mantle. I touch her nightgown and
I cry, so obviously there's a lot of weight there.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, we heard the fiddle being played and that felt.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Oh please. I had Michael still for years, which I
finally auctioned off one of the fiddles. There was a
prop and I could barely contain myself. I'd open the
case just to smell it.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Do you have thoughts on Rose?
Speaker 4 (51:58):
I mean, we asked everyone and because of course the
you know, the conspiracy. Did she write the books but
also Rose herself? It's a lot, But what are your
thoughts on Rose?
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Do you have any?
Speaker 1 (52:10):
I think that that based on all of the reading
I've done, in the research I've done, I think that
roses to Laura what Laura was to Ma. This is
like a generational evolution of rebellion that has passed on.
And I think that as much as Laura sort of
gave her mother fits in her wildness. Rose took it
(52:33):
so much further, and some of it was by choice
and some of it was just in her I think
from what I understand, you know, at that point in
her life, Laura in Mansfield had gone from being basically
a washer woman doing other people's laundry to a very
important member of society and a leader of the society,
(52:57):
and had reached this really interesting place in her life.
For the wild child, she was to be someone who
was so concerned about what other people thought of her
because she was so wildly uncomfortable with her daughter coming
home with a woman her pants wearing, smoking, divorced daughter
(53:18):
who really was living her life is her completely authentic self,
and coming into this world where everything was very rigid
and very you know, where Caroline had sort of that
religious church going fear of outsiders. Laura just didn't want
(53:40):
anyone to know that. She projected this image of who
she was, and I don't think Rose fit into that. However,
their relationship was so sympiotic, you know, their finances were
in twine, they were so in met I think that
they had, you know, a very complicated other daughter relationship
which we can all relate to if anybody could could
(54:02):
or possibly unravel the complications of any mother daughter relationship.
For me, I will give them a medal. It just
it is what it is. That's why God blessed me
with four sons. I do absolutely believe that Rose helped
craft the books. I don't think she wrote them. I
think she crafted them. I think she yeah. I mean,
if you read Pionaregirl, it's incredibly unwieldy, and I don't
(54:25):
think it would have sold back then. I think that
the editors were right. They needed to find a market.
I mean, people weren't spending money, so that it had
to be something special, and of course making it something
for children was entirely appropriate. And I think Rose really
helped to do that and to take these things apart
and put them back together. One hundred percent. I think
she was an absolute ghost editor. I don't think she
(54:45):
was a ghostwriter. I think many of us owe a
lot to Laura and Rose for being the trailblazers that
they were, what they did for female authors and what
they did for women in general by telling that their
sides of those stories and that history is major. I
don't know if we would have had a woman's voice
back then you know, if we would have been able
(55:06):
to look back on a woman's voice it had it
not been.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
For them, Melissa, We're so grateful.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
Thank you, Ah, thanks you guys. I so appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
This was fun, is it? Melissa? Amazing?
Speaker 3 (55:22):
We had such a great time talking to her. If
fulfilled a few childhood dreams in that room. We hope
you enjoyed this. If there's other guests we've talked to
throughout the show that you'd want to hear an extended
interview from, then tell.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
Us maybe we'll release more of these in the future.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
This episode was produced by me Emily Maronov as well
as Mary Do and Shina Ozaki. Sound design and mixing
was done by Amanda Brose Smith. Our wonderful theme and
additional music was composed by Elise McCoy. We are executive
produced by Glennis McNichol, Joe Piazza, Nikki e Tor and
Ali Perry. Thank you, as always to CDM Studios for
(56:03):
recording this conversation. This is the conversation that first paired
us with our guardian Angel engineer, Kathleen.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
We love you, Kathleen.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
If you haven't been following us on social media, Can
you even call yourself a Wilder fan? Get on their people,
Follow us on Instagram at Wilder Underscore podcast, and on
TikTok at Wilder Podcast.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
Thank you for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.