Ep. 553: Becoming a More Effective Whitetail Gun Hunter with Jordan Sillars and Spencer Neuharth

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the
modern white tail hunter and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host,
Mark Kenyan, and this week on the show, we're covering
everything you need to know to become a more accurate
and effective white tail hunter with a gun and helping

(00:23):
me do that or die hard firearm deer hunters, Jordan's
Sillers and Spencer new Heart. All right, welcome to the
Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light
Tannis Show. We are continuing shooting month, but this time

(00:47):
we're stepping away from the archery thing and instead I
am joined by two serious gun guys who are also
white tail guys, and we're gonna be diving into a
whole host of different topics related to becoming a better
shot with a firearm while you're out there deer hunting.
How to become a more effective gun deer hunter. We

(01:07):
discuss criteria for picking the right firearm, optics AMMO, and
accessories for deer hunting. We talk about ideas for how
to better practice with your gun in the off season,
uh stuff like proper trigger pull and breathing and shot
process determining your max range with a firearm for deer.
How accurate is accurate enough with a gun for deer?

(01:30):
Is this super hardcore long range, super accurate? You know
range nut kind of thing? Is that necessary? What about
dealing with target panic? We talked about that, shooting an
adverse conditions, and a whole lot more so. In short,
if you plan on using a firearm for any of
your deer hunts, is coming year and you're ready to

(01:50):
invest a little extra time and energy into doing this
better than you have before, this episode is for you.
So about further Ado, Let's get to week two of
shooting month. We're talking guns for deer hunting and all
things in between. Let's get into it all right with
me on the show today to talk guns. We've got

(02:13):
Spencer new Heart and Jordan's Sellers. Welcome, Welcome to show, guys,
thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks, thank you Mark. Mark.
When is the last time you killed the deer with
a gun? You killed one in one But before that,
when the last time deer died because you had a
gun in your hands? Oh man, You see you were
so busy this past year, Spencer, you you totally blaked

(02:34):
on what I did in one because I killed all
four of my deer with a gun last year. Oh man,
you believe? Can you believe? In new Mark Canyon? I
know you've You've inspired me. After one week in November
and you trounced and every deer in town with your gun,
I said, throwing the stick, stick and string out the
door and picking up the boomstick. So so are you

(02:56):
Are you doing more gun hunting in two now? You know,
I don't have any gun hunt it's like traveling gun
hunts planned. I'll gun hunt in Michigan. That's all I
have planned right now. Um, but I'm not you know,
I'm not opposed to It just kind of depends on
the situation and where I'm going in times of year
and stuff. So yeah, I've got a lot to learn though.

(03:17):
Like I definitely am the deer hunting or the gun
hunting deer hunter who grew up in the world where
you know, we would go up like opening day of
guns season in Michigan was November, and we go up
to camp on November four with our rifles. There was
an old gravel pit down the road on some public land.
We drive out there the evening of the fourteen, We

(03:38):
shoot at a pie plate at forty yards and if
you hit the pie plate, you're good to go for
the season. That was it. That was my gun hunting experience.
That's what I learned to do, and I kind of
taking that into a delthhood. So so you know, this
is gonna be a good conversation for me today to
hopefully dive deeper into it and become become a little
bit more effective. Because you guys supposedly know you Spencer,

(04:00):
have been preaching this forever. Jordan's I think you're probably
in the same boat. You've been preaching the whole gun
hunting for deer thing for a while. Spencer. Can you
give me let's start with you, Spence. Can you for
people that haven't heard your stories in the past here
on the show, which probably have, but if they haven't,
can you give me a quick rundown of your gun
hunting for deer, you know, experience or background, and why

(04:21):
it is that you like to do that so much
more maybe than the stick and string. Yeah, like many
deer hunters, I I feel like they killed their first
year with the gun. There was a case with me
it was too forty three old Remington's seven hundred. I
think that's probably twelve years old or something. And since then,
I've killed white tails and I don't know eight different

(04:43):
states from Kentucky to Montana to Texas with a rifle. Um,
and white tailed gun hunting has probably been like my
number one pursuit for the last five years or so.
And I think, like mini hunters, my style of hunting
is is sort of a pendulum. And my first five
years of deer hunting, we're basically exclusively with rifles, uh,

(05:05):
and it was probably a product of it being the
easiest entry for the world of white tails. Then my
next five years I did way more white tail archery
hunting than I did gun hunting because I yearned for
a greater challenge. UM. There was more opportunity with seasons
being longer, in tags being easier to draw, UM. And
I wanted to get white to get to know white

(05:28):
tails more intimately and try to kill them in like
ten yards instead of three yards. And now my last
five years, the pendulum is like swung pretty far back
the other way where I don't know, but maybe like
eighty or nine percent of my white tail hunting and
given fall now is with a rifle, and I think
it's more of the adventure part of it at this point.

(05:51):
Like if I only have twenty days a year to
deer hunt, and on average it takes me three or
four days to be successful with the rifle versus six
or seven to be successful with a bow, then I'm rifle.
Then if I'm rifle hunting, I can travel to like
five or six different states to deer hunt, versus only
two or three if I'm archery hunting. Right now, that's
more valuable. That that's more valuable to me, and I'm

(06:15):
able to fit in like more unique counts. Now. I
don't think that will last forever. I'm sure at some
point the pendulum like swing way back the other direction
and I'll spend sixteen or seventeen of those twenty days
archery hunting and only a couple rifle hunting. But for
now it's it's the other way around. So, uh, white
tail rifle hunting is my jam right now. I get that.

(06:37):
That's a fair a fair explanation. Jordan, What's what's your story?
How did you how did you get into gun hunting
for deer and what's your background with that? And an
interest in him yeah. Uh. So I actually didn't get
started deer hunting really until I was an adult. Um.
I'm one of those adult onset hunters you may have

(06:59):
heard of. Yeah, but but I've been deer hunting now
for about ten years, um, mostly here in Texas. And
I know when when people think about hunting in Texas,
they think about the kind of high fence, private ranch
operation big bucks. I had someone just recently who heard

(07:19):
I was from Texas and and kind of assumed that, oh,
you must have shot some big bucks. Um. I've never
hunted on one of those ranches. Uh. Everything I've done
has been low fence UM, small properties, maybe like forty
acres um. So that's really kind of where I got
my start, and that's kind of what what I've been doing. Um.

(07:41):
But I actually was interested in firearms before I became
interested in hunting. Really. I kind of got into it
through my my in laws. My brother in law was
a big, big gun nut, um, and he got me
into that, and then I thought, well, you know, I
have these guns, I should probably do something useful with them. Right,

(08:01):
So I h I that's kind of how I dip
my toe in into the hunting world. Um. But I've
also been a gun writer for about eight years now,
so I've had lots of experience testing shooting all kinds
of different guns. Um, so that's been that's been a
lot of fun. And and tell me this then, what, Well,

(08:22):
let me, I guess I'm gonna take a step back.
This is this is shooting month on the Wires Hunt podcast. Right,
so we're we're really focusing all about the tool you're
using to hunt deer and how to be more effective
with it. The first step in being more effective as
a gun hunter for deer, I gotta believe is choosing
the right tool for the job. Right. I think that

(08:44):
probably what I grew up doing is maybe not the
best idea for new hunters today or adult onset hunters
who are picking up right now. In my case, I
just took my grandpa's all gun and I showed up
the day before and shot a pipe play. Right, if
we were talking, we were trying to do this in
a more you know, thoughtful way. Let's start at the

(09:06):
very beginning of this discussion, and Jordan's being the gun writer.
I'm sure you've had many questions about this. I even
think you might have written an article for mediator about this,
But what would be the things you're thinking about when
choosing the right firearm for white tail hunting? There's a
lot of debate about this, Spencer. I'm sure you've got
an opinion, but Jordan, can you kick me off with

(09:28):
what criteria you're thinking about when try and make that decision?
And then maybe you can walk me through some of
your you know, best options, most recommended options, personal favor
anything like that. Yeah. Sure. Well, so I think the
most important thing, or maybe not the most important thing,
But the first thing to remember is to uh not

(09:49):
get too anxious about about this decision. Right. I think
you can go online, you can read you know, articles
that I've written, you can read all kinds of debates
about what's the best dear cartridge. Um, the the truth
is that pretty much anything above uh two two three

(10:12):
Remington's is gonna do a pretty good job, right. And
I would hate and I would hate the thought that
there's a new hunter out there who who just gets
so anxious about the choice that they just don't choose
anything and they never get out time. So that's I
think the first thing to keep in mind. Um. Another

(10:34):
thing that I think people kind of miss is that
this this question of power, right, what's power? What? What
cartridge is powerful enough to take down a deer? Again? Um,
you know anything above two two three Remington's is going
to really have enough power? So that shouldn't really be

(10:54):
your primary consideration. I would say more important, especially for
a new unter or or a young hunter, um, is
going to be uh ammo cost and availability as well
as comfort. We talk about this quite a bit in
our caliber battles. Um. It's something that that you might
forget about when you're when you're choosing what gun to pick,

(11:16):
what what cartridge to go with? Um? But look at
how much it costs to shoot it? Right, Look at
how much a good hunting round is gonna cost, Look
at how much practice rounds are gonna cost. And make
sure that that you can afford to buy enough ammunition
to go out and practice quite a bit with it, um,
because because that's a really important thing, not only practice,

(11:38):
but also um, you know, getting that rifle sighted in
Uh maybe a little more precisely than a pipe plate
mark would would probably be good. Yeah, yeah, you want
enough ammo to do that. Um. Also, uh, you want
enough ammo to be able to find the brand and

(12:00):
and bullet weight of AMMO that your gun shoots really
well UM, and that can take what a few boxes
to figure that out. So so AMO cost and availability
is big UM. And then also uh comfort of shooting
right of of how much that gun is going to kick,
that's big. If if you UM don't like shooting your gun,

(12:23):
you're not gonna go practice with it. If it hurts
to go shoot your gun, you're not gonna shoot it
very much. And worst case scenario, you develop a flinch
where you're anticipating that pain in your shoulder and you
can't shoot that gun accurately. UM. So while you know
obviously it's important to choose something that has enough juice
to take down a white tail UM. I think demo

(12:46):
cost and availability and recoil are are two really big
factors to consider UM. And you can find some of
that information online. Obviously, the demo cost and availability certainly UM,
but there's really no substitute for experience. So if you
have a friend who has a few of these cartridges
that you might be interested in, asked them to take

(13:08):
you to the range, and and your choice might be
a little easier than you think it is after actually shooting, uh,
some of those cartridges. So, Jordan, if you had to,
if you had to recommend like your top two overall
best options. I know there's a whole bunch of you know,
specifics we could get into, but if you had to

(13:29):
pick the top two most you know, most useful options
across the board, what would those be as far as
you know a cartridge or or type rifle. Yeah, well,
so I think the six five creed More is obviously
very popular and there's a reason for that it um,
it balances. I think the power you need to take

(13:51):
down certainly a white tail. UM, many elk have been
taken with with the six five as well as that
comfort factor I was talking about out so it kicks
a little less than some of the other thirty caliber cartridges. UM,
I'm constantly recommending six five. I've had great luck with
six fives out of factory rifles, shooting factory mm O

(14:13):
very accurate. Um. So that's certainly a recommendation I would make. Uh.
And then the other probably is three way Winchester. The
three way win was my first dear rifle. UM. You
want to talk about AMMO availability, you can find it
everywhere right, it's it's a NATO cartridge. So not only
can you find really high quality, accurate hunting ammunition, you

(14:37):
can also find bulk ammunition, you know, the cheap stuff
that you can go out and shoot all day at
the range and not feel like, you know, you have
to take out a second mortgage when you get home. So, yeah,
the sick the six five creed in three waight win.
Those are two two great options for for any new hunter, Yeah, George.

(15:00):
And what if you were to own two cartridges for
deer hunting, Like if if you were to have one
that's on the smaller end of the spectrum and one
of the big end of the spectrum, if you were
just picking two to own, what what would those be then? Yeah? Yeah,
I mean I think you mentioned the two forty three.
I think a lot of a lot of people say
that that's the smallest kind of deer cartridge they're they're

(15:22):
gonna go with. Um. I know, Federal makes some some
two three remingtons, which is a bit smaller. They make
some of those specifically for deer hunting, and a lot
of people with the two two three, Um, but I
think just to kind of stay on the safe side,
the two forty three is a great option. Uh. That's
not gonna kick very much at all. It's still gonna

(15:44):
have um, you know, enough behind it too. You know,
go out to two or three hundred yards, but it's
gonna be very comfortable to shoot. UM. And then you know,
if if you want to go longer range, uh, you
can go up to the you know, the three way
win is A is a great option for that. Six
five is great option. UM. The seven millimeter Remington Magnum

(16:10):
that's uh kind of your your classic long range. Lots
of power behind that. UM. You know, you can shoot
all day with with one of those. UM. So if
you want to have to one kind of light recoiling,
you can get it in a small rifle, easy to
handle UM. And then if you want another for you're

(16:30):
gonna go out, uh you know, out west and and
maybe take a deer UM an open country. The seven
millimeter Remington is is a good choice for that. Have
either one of you guys had any experience with the
straight wall cartridge rifles now that are getting pretty popular
cross parts of the country. I've never haunted in a

(16:52):
state that required straight row straight wall cartridgice, so that's
that's pretty foreign to me. But Jordan has written about
that subject or some guy. I think he's an article
that was like the five best street walk cartridges for
deer tell Us about those jobs. Yeah yeah, um, so yeah,
I I wrote up those those five. Um. The one

(17:15):
I've had kind of the most personal experience with is
the four fifty bush Master. Um. And that I mean
that has enough power to you know, takedown a tank.
It feels like, you know, I mean it's it's a
that's a that's a big, powerful, powerful cartridge. Um. You
don't have to worry at all about uh, you know

(17:35):
about having enough power that that one. You might start
running into some kind of comfort issues, some some recoil issues.
I've got a scar between my eyes from getting scoped
by four fifty that will frequently remind me of that. Yep,
yeah exactly. Um. But yeah, I mean, people seeing the

(17:57):
praises of the three fifty legend, I think and I
think that they have a point there. I think it's
I believe it's marketed as the fastest straight wall cartridge.
I may be getting that wrong, um, but yeah, a
hundred sixty grain projectile, so you know, a three O
eight is like you can shoot one. So it's the

(18:18):
it's in the range of the three O eight in
terms of bullet weight UM going twenty three hundred ft
per second at the muzzle, it's supersonic past four yards. Um.
So yeah, any any place where you're limited to a
straight wall, the three fifty Legend is going to be
a great choice for you. And it's getting you know,
it's getting more popular, so it's a little easier to

(18:38):
find there are more rifles chambered in that in that cartridge.
That's always the kind of the thing you have to
ask with the newer cartridges is how many rifles have
been chambered in this? Am I gonna be able to
find something that that fits my needs? Um? But yeah,
I think the three fifty Legend is a good choice

(18:59):
for a straight wall. Yeah. I can speak to that
personally too. Is that's that's the gun I bought um
to hunt down southern Michigan, and it is. It's a
sweet little shooter. I mean, it's it's compact, It does
not have very much recoil at all. It shoots just
fine out to the ranges that I can shoot in
southern Michigan. You know, we're not taking four hundred shots,

(19:21):
but it shoots great the ranges I'm comfortable at, and
you know, just it's a really not even a very
loud gun either, so it seems like a really good
gun for newer hunters. Uh, I've been I've been really
keen on that one um spencer spencer can you can
you add or do you have anything you would add
when it comes to back to you know, not straight walled,
but firearms in general, rifles in general. Do you have

(19:42):
any other criteria that you think about when choosing the
right firearms, right rifle, right cartridge or do you want
to weigh in on your favorites or recommended options? Yeah,
I think um Jordan was thrown around the example before
about like being paralyzed by choices, because there are some
choices and and he specifically talked about like if you
had a two twenty three um and you were thinking

(20:04):
about getting into hunting or whatever. To three is a
great example for this hypothetical person who is flirting with
the idea of deer hunting. Because we we had a
tribute question once about what's the most sold um MMO
in America and it's the two two three. And I
think Jordan has written about before how like the most
owned firearm cartridge is in the two two three? Do

(20:27):
I have that right, Jordan? Is that specific to like
a RS? Yeah? I mean I think the reason it's
the most sold is because it's it's chambered in a RS,
and that's the most common rifle. Yes. So if if
you are that person who owns a two twenty three
and you're thinking about getting into deer hunting, UM, just
go use your two twenty three. That's that's like on

(20:49):
the smallest end of the spectrum, um, but it's still
you know, an ethical round that you can use to
bring down a deer. And and say you then decide
that's for you, Um, go I a bigger rifle that
would be more you know, well equipped for your style
of hunting. But if you have a two twenty three
and you're thinking about it, um, just go ahead and
do it. And you're asking Mark about like criteria. Um.

(21:13):
For me, living where I do in the West, I
really value versatility. Last year in Montana, I used the
same rifle to kill a white tail, to kill an antelope,
to kill an elk, and that gone was a six
five creed More, And what I love about that cartridge
is specifically how little of recoil it has and how
flat that it shoots. I find that I often wind

(21:34):
up in awkward shooting positions where I don't want to
have to think about what's going to happen to my
shoulder when I pull the trigger. And the six five,
you know, has about half as much recoil as more
popular to your cartridges like the thirty odds six Springfield
or the two seventy Winchester UM. And and so the
six five is my choice. Um, but I would also recommend,

(21:56):
like the three O eight is a is a super
versatile cart whig if you were just going to have
one dear rifle. If I were to have to deer rifles,
I think I would probably go with like my smaller
caliber being a six five creed More, and my bigger
caliber being like a thirty on six Springfield or a
seven mm UM like Jordan had talked about. But again, um,

(22:17):
with all of these choices, there are tradeoffs with whatever
caliber you choose. It's just like with Broadhead's mark um
when you guys, when you talk about guys having um
like a single bevel broadhead that really penetrates um deeply
and it can bust through bone um, but it maybe
doesn't have as big of a cut or fly as

(22:37):
well as like a mechanical which can you know, throw
a huge two inch cut, but maybe it doesn't good
as good at penetration, but it flies just like a
field point. So with all these choices you're making, there's
like no perfect answer or no perfect cartridge. You're just
talking about trade offs at that point. So whatever, uh
you know maximizes like value for you, Whether you hunt

(22:58):
the big woods and wiscott in Um or if you
hunt out west in in Idaho, or if you haunt
in Texas, UM, you're gonna find a cartridge that you
think is like ideal for your situation that may be
different than the guy who haunts one property over. Yeah,
now what about you know people are increasingly finding ways
to customize their rifles or accessorize them in different ways.

(23:22):
Is there anything Spencer that I actually can think of
one thing I know you use? Can you speak to
any ways that you would recommend either modifying a rifle
for deer hunting or any accessories you tack on it
that are particularly helpful? One of the great things about
most of the people that are listening to this who
are white tail hunters is they don't need to spend

(23:43):
a lot of money on it tries. Now, if you're
having this conversation with like be Honest about hunting elk
or Brodie Henderson about hunting mule deer, it would be
totally different because those guys have to be really weight conscious.
But most white tail hunters that are hearing this not
so much, and so sort of something you don't have
to factor into the equation as much as if you're

(24:04):
just hunting out of a deer blind in Kentucky. Um,
but my most important accessories the Swag your bipod. And
now we're not partners or anything like that. So this
is like a genuine endorsement of Swagger bipods. They allow
you to shoot from whatever position you might end up in,
like I said before, which which tends to be awkward,
whether you're standing or kneeling, or prone or sitting or

(24:24):
leaning off of a tree or shooting from a blind
or a tree. Stand Uh, that thing can always like
give you a sturdy rest. Now, again, if you were
talking to Brody, you're you're honest about this. They would
think you're absolutely crazy for carrying around a bipod that
weighs like two pounds. But if I'm hunting in in
the Midwest, that extra weight isn't really a big deal.

(24:46):
It's it's absolutely worth the advantage of being able to
shoot from whatever position you might find yourself. And so
I think specifically for a white sail hunter, UM, just
knowing that you have a good solid rest, whether that's
off of a bipod that's connected to your gun or
a tripod UM that also doubles as you know, holding
your camera to take pictures. Uh, just really focus on

(25:09):
that part of the hunt. Yeah, Jordan, would you would
you add to that? Yeah, well I second that. On
on the Swagger, the Swagger bipod spencer, can you kind
of explain what those are just for people who haven't
maybe seen them before, because they're they're a pretty unique
UM tool. Yeah. Most bipods that you use UM, once

(25:31):
you deploy them, they are like a very stiff bipod
that they go out to like sixteen inches and they
stay at sixteen inches and you have to basically try
to shoot them prone. Swagger allows you to extend it
like sort of ridiculous ranges UM where you can shoot.
If you're just like of an average height of like

(25:52):
five eleven, you can use this bipod and extend it
long enough to shoot while you're standing. You just you know,
fold the legs in a little bit tighter. Um. They
also allow you to swivel around a bunch of directions,
which is is really cool if you were hunting UM
in an area like I was last year in Montana
for one week in November. I was hunting a spot

(26:13):
that didn't really have a specific funnel, and I wasn't
sure what the deer we're going to be doing. Having
the ability to prop my gun up on a bipod
and be you know, had very easily like shoot all
the way to my right at like, uh, what would
that be ninety degrees? Or go to my left at
two seventy degrees. The Swagger bipod allows you to do that.
They're not as stiff or or rugged as a traditional bipod.

(26:36):
But if you're sitting on the ground leaning against a tree,
UM and you want the ability to to make a
variety of shots, that would be like my top recommendation. Yeah, Yeah,
they're very cool. I've I've telt them a couple of times. UM.
One thing I would add, and this really applies more
if you're going to be shooting out you know, three

(26:57):
D four hundred, five hundred yards UM is a bubble
level that you put on your scope to make sure
that you're shooting, that that your radical is level when
you're shooting. UM. I wrote a piece on this a
couple of months ago, and I was surprised. I talked
with a guy at vortex UM and I was surprised

(27:17):
at how much tilting your rifle to the right or
to the left when you shoot can throw off your shot. UM.
He did did some math for me and found that
at three hundred yards UM, a two degree can't to
the right or the or to the left can move
your shot horizontally by almost nine inches UM. And that obviously,

(27:40):
uh the the effect of that is even worse as
you increased distance. Now, I don't want to kind of
over overstate this too much. It's not going to be
a huge deal if most of your shots are are
within you know that that three yard range. But having
that bubble level on your scope, uh is is gonna
be able to tell you you can just glance at it,

(28:01):
look and say, Okay, I'm shooting straight. I don't have
to worry about this. I can you know, either just
hold right on or I can dial and and I'm
gonna be good to go. Um. So that's one thing.
And they're not expensive, you know, maybe thirty bucks and uh,
and that will help make sure that you're shooting strade

(28:31):
When it comes to white tail hunting, how how important
is a good scope? I mean, you know, going back
to my ill advised childhood, I mean, we had like
thirty dollar scopes on our rifle. I didn't touch a
higher end scope till I was in my twenties. For
guys that are just hunting farm country in Michigan or
Ohio or Georgia, they're shooting fifty yards, maybe a hundred

(28:53):
and fifty yards, you know, that kind of stuff that
most you know, west or east of the Mississippi white
tail guys are doing. How important is the scope? Do
we really need to sink a bunch of money into it?
Jordan's um or is it really that important? Oh? Man?
I I really, I really have a special dislike for

(29:14):
scope snobs. Um. It just kind of bothers me when
when people say, oh, you really have to spend you know,
two thousand dollars, three thousand dollars on a scope. Why
are you putting that cheap scope on that nice gun? Um?
But I get it right. I think for people who
are hunting at those longer distances, it makes a lot
more sense. If you're not hunting at those longer distances,

(29:36):
I think, uh, it could still be a good idea
to invest at least some amount of money in a
scope just for those low light conditions at Donner at
dusk when you know, we hunt whitetail. You want to
be able to see clearly and so. Um. You know.
I don't think you have to spend a thousand dollars

(29:57):
on on your your scope for your dear gun. Uh,
but but I think it is worth it to invest
just to get that clarity in those low light conditions. Um,
you know, at least a couple hundred dollars. I would say,
what do you think, spencer, Yeah, I think scoops or
I think scopes are super important. If I was building

(30:18):
a white tail gun for like a thousand bucks, um,
I'd spend half of that on a scope in the
other half on the rifle. Itself. Jordan, I'm curious to
hear like your thoughts on that. If you were spending
a thousand dollars on a gun that's going to be
your white tail gun, how would you break that down? Yeah, No,
I like that especially, I think especially because these days

(30:40):
you don't have to spend a ton of money on
a gun. You know, five hundred dollars is gonna get
you there, Ah, for a gun that's gonna shoot as
well as you needed to shoot, right, they talk about
the gun shoots better than you do. Um, five dollars,
that's that's gonna be enough to get you there. And
so then yeah, you can spend the rest of that

(31:02):
on a really nice scope and be sure that you
know you're you're seeing clearly. Um. So yeah, i'd agree
with that. Yeah. And the difference between like a four
hundred dollar gun and an eight hun gun is noticeable.
But for a lot of white tail hunters, um, maybe
not necessarily and it's not going to like kill them
anymore dead, but the difference between a four scope and

(31:24):
an eight hund scope is is pretty enormous. Um. So,
if you're setting aside a budget to buy a new gun,
like spend at the top of your budget for a scope,
and and you won't regret that scope. We're probably like
outlive the gun itself when you decide to move on
and get a different cartridge or get a different gun,
or or you know, change things up and go out

(31:45):
west or get a straight wall cartridge or whatever. So again, UM,
I put a lot of emphasis on like making sure
you have the right scipe. Yeah, that's and that's a
great point about being able to switch it to a
different gun, because the gun's gonna where eventually. Um, but
if you take care of the scope, you can you
can move it over. Well, what what makes a good

(32:06):
white tail scope? Then? If you know, if we're if
we're agreeing that what a western hunter is different, what
a western hunter needs is different than what a white
tail hunter needs. But Spencer, you're saying we should still
try to get as good of a white tail scope
as we can. What does that mean? Um, what's the
criteria we're looking at that's most important for these types
of situations. Well, a lot of the stuff is going

(32:29):
to be obvious, and that's like the amount of light
that you're letting in and how crisp things look. And
those are things that you'll notice, like the second you
go from a crappy scope to a very nice scope,
especially when it manas most which is like that first
half hour shooting light or that last half hour shooting light.
But I think more important to that is, um getting

(32:49):
the right magnification for whatever your situation might be. Now,
when I hunt in the West, I'm using like a
three by fifteen power scope. UM. But maybe if you're
hunting like the swamps of Mississippi or something, Um, you
don't need anything that gives us beyond like six or
something like that. I don't know what that number would

(33:11):
be because I haven't been in that situation very much.
But just making sure that you have the appropriate size
of magnification because you can really hurt yourself if you're
under magnified or overmagnified. UM. So getting that part right
and then and then spending like a responsible amount of
money and uh, you'll be happy with whatever you get. Yeah, yeah,

(33:34):
And I think the temptation is always to go for
too much magnification, right, Like we want we want hubble
telescopes on our rifles, even if we're only going to
be shooting a fifty yards um, so yeah, I'll definitely
agree with Spencer. All right. So let's say we've got
our deer gun. Then we've got four rifle that shoots

(33:57):
better than than we can shoot ourselves. We've got as
good of a scope as we can afford. It's got
good low light capabilities, not too much magpower and swagger
bipod on there. And now I am you know, Let's
say I'm like one of the millions of deer hunters
out there who traditionally have done what I do, which

(34:18):
is you go out for opening weekend, maybe you go
out around Thanksgiving, um, but then the rest of the
year your bow hunting or maybe the gunning is all
you do. But let's say this year you say, all right,
I'm gonna get better at this thing. I'm gonna pay
more attention to my gun. I'm gonna actually invest in
time and energy in doing this the right way because
I don't want to have another miss or I don't

(34:39):
want to whatever. When it comes to leading into the
season kinds of work like tuning your rifle or checking
the zero in your practice spencer, what what does that
look like for you? As far as the preseason work
with your dear gun, how you're practicing with it, tuning it,
setting anything like that. What does that look like for you?
And what should someone be think thinking about as they

(35:00):
get you know, try and take things to the next
level themselves. I'm not super intense, um about my practicing,
and it's certainly requires I think less than someone who's
trying to kill a deer with a bow. Right then
you recommend their shooting year round and they're ramping up
as a season gets closer and and things like that. Um,

(35:24):
the reality is would be awesome if you did that
with your with your rifle. Um, But shells are expensive
and it's not like you can everybody can just like
go in their backyard and and uh, you know, let
out twenty rounds or something like that. So if if
you were going to practice like I think an appropriate
amount and you just wanted to burn through one box

(35:45):
of shells, which these days is kind of expensive, that
could be you know, fifty depending on what you're shooting.
I'd recommend trying to break that up into multiple sessions. Right,
So rather than going out and shooting twenty shells, all
that wants, uh, maybe go out like four times in
the couple of months. Leading up and only shoot five
rounds each or go out three times and only shoot

(36:07):
like seven rounds each. UM. Now, the more shooting the
better obviously, but again that's just like not practical for everybody.
And just like with archery, it's it's fun to practice
at ranges beyond um what would be a realistic yardage,
and that will actually give you some confidence when you
do come back to a short or distance. Right if

(36:28):
if I take out my rifle and um, I can
hit steal at five hundred yards, when I come back
to two hundred, which is a more realistic range, that
that feels like a piece of cake. Just like if
you shoot your bow at sixty and then you come
back to fifteen, UM, it makes that feel easier. And
so I'd recommend a little bit of that too. But uh,
just getting like really confident at whatever you think your

(36:49):
your yardage is, whether it's a hunt or two hundred
three hundred um, and and making sure you get out
like three or four times, you know, in the months
leading up to the season. UM, that's that's good enough
to like make you a very effective rifle hunging, very
effective rifle hunter. But I'd be curiously about Jordan's to say,
is someone who you know shoots you round? Yeah, I

(37:12):
mean I think I think you hit it when you
said shoot at realistic distances. Um, I think you're you're overarching.
Um kind of goal should be too. Try to replicate
as close as possible the hunting situations you're likely to encounter.
And obviously hunting is, um you know, unpredictable, so you

(37:33):
won't be able to always do that. But um, you know,
it's unlikely that you'll be able to take a shot
from prone with your bipod totally calm and relaxed, right,
I mean it's possible, but it's more likely you're gonna
have to shoot over some grass, or you're gonna have
to shoot leaning against a tree or resting your gun

(37:56):
on a fence post. Um. So when you do actice,
I think it's it's way more useful to practice those
types of scenarios. Um. So you're not just we're shooting
from the bench, right, I mean, I guess maybe if
you're in a tree stand, it's somewhat like shooting from
a bench. Um, But practice those field positions. So practice sitting,

(38:17):
practice squatting. Um. I I heard a Special Forces sniper
once who said that he took most of his shots
squatting with his elbows rested on his knees. And that's
how we took most of the shots. Because that's how
if if you know you're you're in the field, that's
that's what you gotta do. UM. So practicing those field
positions is really important. UM. And Spencer mentioned kind of

(38:39):
the cost of AMMO, which is pretty insane these days. UM.
One way you can still get in some practice without
spending any money on AMMO is dry fire. Uh. If
you talk to guys who do do a lot of
competition shooting, they'll tell you dry fire is uh invaluable UM,
which you can do at home, you know, just you know,

(39:02):
be safe. Of course, make sure your gun is totally unloaded.
A lot of times guys will will dry fire, like
at their guns safe just like you know, that added
level of safety. But just make sure that that that's
the case, and then practice those field positions. But you
can do it, you know, in your basement or um,
in your room, and it doesn't feel like it's helping,

(39:24):
but it really is helping because it's it's teaching you
that trigger control. It's teaching you how to keep those
sites on your target and pull the trigger without just
without disrupting those sites, which is when you're gonna miss. Right,
you can hold sits on a target. The reason you
miss is because when you pull that trigger, you move
them a little bit. UM, So dry fire is great. UM.

(39:48):
I also recommend like getting a training gun in twenty
two long rifle or even like an air rifle. UM.
Any any trigger time is going to be helpful for you.
And again going to of those field positions, it's gonna
make you a better shooter. Yeah. The field positions thing
is is so important. And I consider myself like a

(40:08):
a very experienced uh gun hunted for deer. And something
I didn't pick up until recently when I started shooting
with Garrett Long for meat eater who shoots probably more
than anybody um that I know, was that if I
were to go out to the range and I were
to shoot like the six five creed More that I
that I hunted with all of last year, UM, I

(40:28):
would just shoot that off of a lead sled and
then that's that's what I would do. That would be
my routine. Garrett Long will absolutely not let me shoot
off a lead sled unless like my rifle isn't zero
or something like that. But assuming my rifle is zero,
they we're gonna go out and shoot, you know, five
to ten rounds. He will not let me shoot out
a lad sludd. He's making sure that I'm shooting off
of my bipod while I'm sitting or shooting off of

(40:49):
my bipod will laying um. And I felt so dumb
when I realized like that that was the correct course
of action for practicing with your rifle, and that it's
actually pretty silly to just like sit there on a
life slid uh and pull the trigger. So those field
positions like Jordan was talking about, um, everybody you know
should take that tap away from this podcast. Jordan's you

(41:12):
had talked about, you know, that trigger time being so
important to really understand how to control that trigger. And
that brought to mind something that's so simple that I
think a lot of longtime gun hunters don't even think
about it anymore. But that is the right way to
pull the trigger and shoot your gun. You know, I

(41:33):
think I've heard so many different people say different ways
to do it. You know, some people say take a
deep breath and then squeeze and then pull, you know,
when you release the breath. Some people say hold the breath.
Some people there's all this different stuff about breathing and
squeezing and pulling and all that kind of stuff. Could
you could you walk me through what you think the
right way it is to do that so that someone
who's either new or someone who wants to like check

(41:57):
what their grandpa taught them and see if it's right.
Can you walk us you're like the right way to
do that, so that when we are dry firing and
practicing or on the range and practicing, we're doing it
the best possible way. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think UM,
in terms of breathing, letting that breath all the way
out is gonna be the best kind of option. I

(42:19):
know there's there's some debate about that, but to me,
that just makes the most sense. And that's what I've
had the most success with UM. Because you don't want
your body to be moving when you're trying to shoot
a gun, right, You certainly don't want to pull that
trigger as you're inhaling um or or as you're exhaling,
because your your chest is moving with those motions. UM,

(42:42):
So you wanna you want to let that breath all
the way out. UM. And then in terms of your
trigger pull, um, pulling it with that first finger pad
on your trigger finger, UM is going to make sure
again that you're not disrupting those sites. You're not uh
you know, jerking that trigger and moving the sites off

(43:03):
of the target. UM, You're you're you want to focus
on you let that breath out, and then you put
you give that trigger a even consistent pressure. Hopefully if
you've gotten lots of trigger time, you've practiced a lot,
you know exactly when that trigger is going to break
even consistent pressure. Um with that breath out and you

(43:26):
break your shot like that. UM. That's how I've done it,
That's why I was taught to do it, and I've
had success with that, uh that method spencer anything different
for you, Yeah, I think, UM. One of the hardest
thing to simulate, even at the range is just like

(43:46):
being out of breath when you have to make a shot.
And I experienced that a lot haunting left of the
Missouri River where I will spot a deer at like
a thousand yards and now I got to close that
distance to three hundreds. So all of a sudden you
know you've walked like a quarter mile or something, and
you're going up and down ravines and you get there

(44:08):
and that he's about to disappute over the next hill
or something, or across the property line, whatever that might be,
and then you had to make that shot after you
know you're now out of breath. And so I think
one thing that you could try to practice at the
range is just like step away from your gone walk
back to your pickup, um, walk around, they pick up

(44:28):
a few times whatever, um, look at your phone, but
just like walking while you're doing and then come back
and try to make yourself shoot within like you know,
the first twenty seconds of of getting behind your rifle.
Because I think any of the deer that I have
missed in recent years, it wasn't because I was nervous
or because there was something wrong with the gun or

(44:49):
my environment. Um, it was that like it got to
the moment of truth and I had just, um like
walked a long distance and now this dear is is
about to hop a fancy or something. I have to
make a shot in amount of breath. And so I
think that is is one thing that I would recommend practicing.
UM unless you're someone who you know hunts in Tennessee

(45:11):
and you just sit in elevative blind all the time,
that that won't really be an issue. But for anyone
else who's not in the Midwest, that could be like
something that you need to learn. Yeah, and I think
I mean even even if you are hunting in the
Midwest from a tree stand. Um, the sensation of target
panic is similar to the sensation of you know, uh,

(45:36):
like you're describing being physically out of breath. So I
think if if you struggle with you know, your heart
starts beating out of your chest when you see that dear, Um,
that strategy that that spencer describing will help with that
as well. It's just getting used to making good shots
when your heart's beating, the adrenaline is going. Um. It's

(46:00):
it's great, great practice for for those situations. Let's talk
to something else that I think, something else that I
think Jordan can speak too better because he knows the
physics of it. Um is that you don't want to
practice with a hot barrel. Um. It can be tempting
to go out and like wrap up your whole you know,

(46:22):
shooting process in like fifteen minutes or something and in
that fifteen minutes you sent like seven to ten rounds
down range. That's too much. Your gun barrel is going
to be hot, and if you're new to to gun haunting,
you might not realize like the effect that that can
have on on your accuracy UM, and it might like

(46:42):
make you tempted to then move your zero and you're
making these adjustments and your barrel gets hotter and it
only gets worse from there. So speak to that a
little bit, Jordan, about why it's important, you know, to
be shooting with a barrel that's not smoking hot, because
that's not how it's going to be in the field,
and that can affect your accuracy. Yeah. Yeah, so you
certainly don't want um two to zero your scope based

(47:06):
on a hot barrel. Now, sometimes, you know, some guns
do a great job with you know, your your point
of impact doesn't shift much at all with with the
hot barrel. UM. Some guns, especially a lot of hunting rifles,
if it's a thin profile barrel, UM, you can have
a significant point of impact shift when that barrel is hot.

(47:28):
Uh So, what I always recommend is, if you're sitting
in your gun, like you know, at the beginning, at
the beginning of the season. UM, shoot your group right,
shoot three to five shots, same point of aim, adjust
your scope, and then wait until your barrel cools off
before taking another shot. Because your first shot on that deer,

(47:49):
your barrel is gonna be coold. Ideally you do this
with UM you know, the same outside temperature and at
the same elevation, because that can packed your shot as well. UM.
If if that's not possible, you know it's you'll probably okay.
But making that final shot where you confirm your rifles zero,

(48:11):
you got to do that with the cold barrel. UM. Now,
if you're if you're practicing right, you're practicing those field positions,
I wouldn't worry too much about making sure your barrel
stays perfectly cold. Uh. You don't want to burn out
your barrel. You don't want it to get you know,
flaming hot and melt. Um. But if you're just practicing
on steel or whatever, you know, it's not a huge

(48:34):
deal if if your barrel gets gets hot. But once
you are zeroing it, you know, the last shot before
you go out to hunt, you want to do that
with the cold barrel. UM to make sure you're replicating
the in the field scenario. Interesting, Um, I want to
go back to what you brought up Jordan's in regards

(48:55):
to target panic, and you know, that's something we talk
a lot about in the bow hunting world, maybe less
so in the gun hunting world, but I mean there's
a plenty of ways that it shows itself, right, whether
it be in punching the trigger or flinching at the shot,
or you know, in my case with my gun hunting experiences,

(49:15):
it's it's just always been that I rushed the shot,
Like I mean, as soon as the cross areas behind
the shoulder, it's it's being sent like that's been something
I fought for a long time. I can only think
of like one shot ever with a gun that I
can really tell you honestly that I like, really slow
down and let the crossair just sit on the deer
for a little bit of time before I squeeze the trigger. Thankfully,

(49:38):
as my longest shot I've ever taken at a deer,
and I got it. But I've I've had trouble with
this is what I'm trying to say. UM So my
question is for folks that have experienced that, for people
that are experiencing that, how do you tackle that other
than doing the you know, run around and train and
get your heart right up and practice like that. UM.
I've spent a lot of time learning about dealing with

(49:59):
target panic with a bow. I gather there's probably a
lot of things that are similar, but from a gun perspective,
how do you help someone dealing with that with their firearm? Yeah,
I mean a good question, right. UM. I think it
goes back to practice and confidence, because the more you practice,

(50:20):
the more confident you're gonna be in in your ability
to make a shot. And so even when your heart
is racing and you're shaking, you're you're gonna know and
your body to make a good shot. UM. So you
can still feel that confidence even though you know your

(50:41):
your adrenaline is going um. And again that that goes
back to practice. UM. Speaking of kind of uh mistakes
or or bad shots. One time this this really affected
me was when it wasn't a very long shot. I
was I was do hunting, um, and I I but

(51:03):
I still you know, got got that hit of adrenaline. UM.
I didn't have a great rest and I had also
been shooting earlier in the day with a different gun. Uh.
That had a much heavier trigger. So when I went
to pull the trigger on my deer hunting gun, I
mean that thing went off when I did not expect

(51:24):
it to. Um. So so I think another thing just
to kind of, you know, get really dialed in right
before that hunt is as you're going out, but before
you leave, UH, do a little bit of dry fire
just too again, remind your body of this is what
the trigger feels like when it goes off. This is
how much pressure you need to put on it, um

(51:45):
and and that that will help you even uh in
those moments of target panic. M Spencer about you have
you have you ever dealt with it at all? Um
a little bit. I experienced it far more UM using
our treat equipment. And I think the same things mark
um that makes somebody a good shot with a rifle

(52:05):
would apply to making them a good shot with the bow.
And I know you've talked about this a lot, um
and what it takes to get rid of that target panic.
But all the same things that you emphasize, UM, you know,
when you're you're shooting an arrow apply to when you're
shooting a bullet. UM. I think if you take somebody
like lead by Morgan. Whoever the best um archery hunter

(52:27):
you know is, I'm sure they would. They would also
excel sitting behind a bipod on a rifle. Um, all
those same things seem to translate. Yeah, that makes sense.
So so then here's the question. I guess it's kind
of a two part question. Um, how do you know
you're shooting well enough to go out there? Right? I

(52:48):
mean I recognize that my childhood experience was probably not
the right answer. Right, hit apply hit a pipe play
at forty yards probably doesn't mean you're accurate enough these
days to go out and shoot a deer of the
gun at least not advisable. Uh, what would you guys
say is accurate enough? You know? If I'm shooting two

(53:08):
inch groups, that two of my good? If I'm shooting
one inch groups a hundred of my good? Is it?
Is it something else? How? How do you guys measure that?
How do you determine what's accurate enough and that I'm
ready to go out there and do this thing well?
And then secondly, part two of this is how do
you determine what your max ranges? How would you go
about that spencer? I think for determining your max range UM.

(53:33):
For most white tail hunters, their environment will determine that. UM.
I don't think that there's a lot of people hunting um,
you know, like eastern Mississippi, eastern Missouri that would have
many opportunities to like take a five hundred yard shot
or six hundred yard shot or something like that. So
I think for a lot of folks that's just predetermined

(53:53):
basically by what they're hunting in. But if you do
hunt in the west, you're where it's more open, or
maybe your hunting an enormous egg field, um, where those
kinds of shots exist. UM, Then I think it's I
don't know if there is a good rule. UM. Like
I feel like we often hear with our tree equipment

(54:14):
that it's like a ten yards you should be shooting
one inch groups or something like that. And and maybe
Jordan is aware of like a good rule for that
kind of thing. UM. But you'll recognize, like if you're
accurate enough to go out and ethically kill a deer,
and you have to think about usually you're you're aiming
for their lungs, which are about the size of like

(54:35):
a a pie plate. And so I've had a hundred
yards you're throwing like two inch groups in it, you know,
two hundred yards, you're throwing three or four inch groups. Um,
that's that's plenty accurate to go out and kill a
white tail, assuming you know, all other factors are not
making you inaccurate. So you're telling me that when I'm

(54:57):
reading in these like gun magazines and they're talking about
how all their bullet holes are touching each other and
they're within like one eighth of a millimeter and every
single one stacking on top. I'm not supposed to do that.
I mean, any rifle that we're shooting is probably capable
of that. But when we're behind a bipod or you know,
resting um on our knees or something like that, Now,

(55:20):
if you can throw you know, a couple inch grouping
at a few hundred yards, um, that's that's plenty accurate
to like effectively and ethnically kill a white tail. Yeah, Jordan,
what's your take? Yeah, Yeah, I agree with Spencer. I
think we're more likely to be limited by our own
skill as a hunter than by the limitations of the

(55:42):
ammunition we're using. Right, because you you can you can
determine how far your bullet is going to expand right
and reliably dispatch an animal. The the AMMO maker can
tell you how fast does that bullet have to be
going uh to reliably expand and you can use that
and calculate, Okay, the bullets still traveling at this speed

(56:05):
at eight hundred yards, So that is my max effective range.
The problem is that that's probably not your max range, right,
unless you have extensive experience, unless you are very comfortable
making wind calls, unless you UM are are very confident
in your your range finder. UM, your max range is

(56:29):
limited to what you can shoot in that specific situation. UM.
I think the pipe plate thing, UH, it's not a
bad like thing to think about, right because everyone knows
how big a pipe plate is, and that's about as
big as the vital area UM of a white tail.

(56:50):
So if if you think you might make a three
yard shot, UM, take a pie plate, put it at
three yards and shoot from those field positions. Shoot from
the positions you think you're likely to shoot from in
the field. And if you can, if you can group
those shots near the center of the pipe plate, I
think you're gonna be good to go. UM. If you're

(57:13):
shooting all over the pipe plate, right and one light
kind of barely mixed the edge. Then maybe you want
to bring it back a little bit because in the
field again, um, you know, you're gonna deal with weird weather,
You're gonna deal with your own adrenaline. Um, so you
want to make sure in that controlled setting of the
range you're you're hitting near the center. But yeah, like

(57:34):
Spencer said, couple inches at two or three hundred yards,
you're gonna be good to go with with most situations
you're gonna encounter. Okay, how does how does all this
look in the field? I mean, when I think about
my archery shot process, I'm in the tree, I see
a buck come in, he's moving into range. There's a

(57:55):
whole series of things that I'm doing to prepare myself
for the shot and to actually x acute, you know,
all the way to firing that arrow down range. Jordan,
can you walk me through what that process looks like
for you with a firearm. I'm really curious about all
the detailed things, like what you're thinking about, what you're
checking at each different point. Um. You know, I'm curious

(58:17):
if there's anything here that we can get better at.
For me, it's always just been like an automatic thing
I've done since I was a kid. I'm curious if
there's a better way to do things when it comes
to actually getting into position and executing the best possible
shot on a deer with a gun in the field,
What does that look like for you? Yeah? Yeah, I mean,
I'm I'm curious also to hear what Spencer has to say,

(58:39):
just because of his extensive experience with this. But um,
you know, for me, the first question is how far
away is the deer? Right? Am I gonna need to
have any holdover? Am I gonna need to dial my
scope at all? Um? You know in most white tail
situations probably not, especially if you're sited in at two yards.

(59:03):
You know, you're probably gonna be able to hold right
on target. Um once I once, Once I am comfortable
with the range, I'm comfortable that this is the animal
that I want to take. Um, I'm gonna get behind
the scope now. I think I struggled with this when
I was a new hunter. Uh is getting a good
site picture can be challenging in that scenario when you're

(59:26):
when your adrenaline is pumping right you, you get down
behind the scope and now all you see is black um.
And I think if if you grew up with firearms,
maybe that's not so much of a struggle for you.
But if you didn't. UM, practicing getting that good site
picture is important before the hunt, so that once you
get there, you can immediately bam, you're behind the scope.

(59:49):
You have a clear sight picture and the animal is
in your scope. UM. That's another thing. Sometimes you see
through the scope and now you're not sure where you are.
You're kind of lost. UM. So so practicing that beforehand
is good. Uh. One thing that I've found to be
useful as having a good cheek riiser that's at the
right height. UM. That way, my my cheek goes down

(01:00:13):
and I'm automatically at the right height. So you know,
there's there's a better chance of getting that good site picture. UM.
Once I have that good site picture, you know, it's
it's just kind of back to what we talked about before,
controlling breathing, focusing on that trigger. UM. That's something that
that I tell people all the time is is the
most important thing when you're breaking a shot is that

(01:00:36):
trigger control. UM. Is just focus on making sure that
trigger press is consistent and that you're pulling all the
way through, um, because because that's what's gonna really gonna
make or break the shot, is that trigger. UM. So
once you know, once you break that shot, that's that's
kind of hopefully you've you've made a good one. M

(01:01:10):
When are you addressing the safety? Do you do? You
pop that safety off as soon as you've got the
site picture, as soon as the crosshairs are on the vitals,
as soon as as soon as when? Yeah? Good, good question. UM.
I think probably as soon as I get the animal
and the crosshairs, that's when the safety is coming off.
Now I'm not putting my finger on the trigger until

(01:01:33):
obviously the animals where I wanted to be and I'm
lined up and ready to shoot. UM. But but yeah,
clicking that safety off, and you know I I forgot
that even as I was describing this process, so you know,
it's happened to the best of us. I think where
we forget to flip that safety off? H spencer, what's

(01:01:53):
your process look like? I think one of the number
one things you need to remind yourself if you're gun
hunting um or deer is that you can take your time.
If if you're an archery hunter, who is um getting
into gun hunting. You're probably familiar with how it could be,
you know, the middle of November and you're hunting a
funnel during the rout, and an entire encounter with a

(01:02:16):
deer can happen in like ten to fifteen seconds, and
that's it, and that's your only chance. Um. With gun hunting,
it's it's rarely that quickly. You can take your time
and like calm yourself down, um and get a good,
steady rest rather than a mediocre one, um, because a
lot of times that deer probably doesn't even know that

(01:02:36):
you exist, and and there isn't like a real threat
of you moving your knees a little bit or bringing
your gun up higher on your shoulder because the thing
is a hunter and fifty yards away and doesn't know
that you're there, which isn't like, uh, it's not something
that really translates to archery. If you're familiar with you know,

(01:02:58):
the intimate and counters that you have with deer. The
other thing is um ahead of time, knowing the zoom
of your scope. It can be common for you to
like go out to the range right and the last
shot you take is at six hundred yard and you
hit steel and you're feeling real good, and that's the
shot that you end on. And then you go hunting

(01:03:19):
opening day and and you pull up your scope um
like when it matters, and you realize that you have
your zoom turned up to like fourteen or something, and
then all of a sudden you're dialing back and you're
you're adjusting your clarity and and things like that. So
ahead of time, whenever you sit down, we're like, you
think you're hunting, and you have your your gun on
safe um, sit down and look around through the scope

(01:03:41):
and figure out, you know, what you want the zoom
to be if the things that three fifty yards or
if it's at seventy five yards UM. And then you
should also, just like when you're our tree hunting range,
things ahead of time. And so if you're sitting in
a tree stand and you know that this uh trail
is eight, you know ards in that trail is nineteen

(01:04:02):
and this tree is twenty four, you should do the
same thing. When you're gone hunting. You should know like roughly, okay,
that tree is a hundred yards and uh, the top
of that hill is two hundred um and things like that,
you'll likely have enough time to range deer and get
a precise range, because, like I said, the gun encounters

(01:04:23):
aren't as quick or immediate um as our tree encounters are.
But it's it's something else that you should be doing
out of time, just like when you're hunting with the bow. Yeah.
So does your process look any different though as far
as like the actual steps are taken than Jordan described, No,
I think I think it's pretty well the same. Um.
Like you acquire your target, like you you bring your

(01:04:45):
eye to the scalpe. That's when I flip flick off
the safety. Um. So I think it sounded very similar
to you know, what Jordan does when he's gone hunting deer.
Do either one of you guys have any kind of
internal monologue or mantra or words that you're repeating yourself
to try to help focus on these important things? You

(01:05:06):
know that's a big thing in the archery world. Um.
Is that something that's ever played into firearms for you,
Spencer or Jordan's for me? Um? Not very much? Um.
But but I also kind of choose to haunt with
a caliber that doesn't have as much recoil for that reason,
and I think people it probably happens to and they're

(01:05:29):
not even aware of it that they're like bracing themselves
if they're shooting a two seventy um that they're they're
shooting a large bullet out of um, that they have
to like kind of choose to think about the recoil
that's about to happen. That's one of the reasons I
love to shoot with a gun like a six five
creed More is that never crosses my mind as far

(01:05:50):
as like what's going to happen to my shoulder after
I pull a trigger. I think some people do have
to think about that if they're shooting a thirty ot
six or seven mm um. But as far as it
goes um pulling the trigger. I don't have any mantras
or anything like that, but I wouldn't be surprised if people,
you know, have that without even realizing it when they're

(01:06:11):
shooting a gun, that that really kicks them. Yeah. Yeah,
I don't have anything specific. I think just I try
to breathe and control my breathing and then just focus
on that trigger. I mean I might I might even
think that in my head focus on the trigger, uh,
just because that's that's what I That's all I tried

(01:06:33):
to think about as hard as that is when I'm
when I'm in that situation. M Yeah, I think new
shooters um probably wouldn't even recognize like what a good
trigger pole feels like. And I'm specifically talking about the
weight of the trigger poole. I've only had one rifle

(01:06:54):
in my life that I considered to like be inaccurate,
and it was because the trigger pole was wildly be
And I even took it to like a gunsmith to
to get it addressed because I couldn't get it taken
care of UM and he ran into the same issues
where he couldn't get it any lass. But I'd be
curious to wordy to hear your thoughts on on like
the weight of a trigger. I think ideally you're in

(01:07:15):
like the four pound range or five pound range. UM,
a really heavy trigger pole could be like almost double digits,
and it's like replicating a handgun at that point. That's
not ideal. You you want a trigger pole it's not
so light that it's gonna go off if you bump it.
But also UM like light enough that you don't have
a long trigger pole where you're really thinking about it

(01:07:37):
or you're unsure when it's gonna go off, or you
have to think about how much emphasis you're putting on
on your finger pulling the trigger. And it's probably like
one of the cheapest, cheapest ways to just make it
a rifle more accurate is getting a trigger pole that's
right for you. It's something you can probably address after
watching like a YouTube video or just taking to a
gunsmith and they'd probably do it for free and just

(01:07:59):
ask you to like next time you got a more
serious matter you're bringing your business. Yeah, yeah, no, Uh,
A trigger is is one of the easiest things and
a lot of rifles one of the easiest things you
can swap out. UM. A lot of aftermarket trigger companies
make drop in triggers for the most popular uh, you know,

(01:08:19):
both action hunting rifles. So it's just a matter of
taking that action apart, you know, UM, taking out a
couple of screws and putting the new trigger in UM
and it can make a world of difference. I mean,
it's it's not gonna make the gun more mechanically accurate,
but it's gonna make you more accurate with the gun
without question, especially if you're going from a trigger like

(01:08:41):
Spencer's describing to a really nice trigger. Um. A lot
of them are also adjustable, so uh, pretty common. It's
pretty common to be able to adjust them between two
and a half and five pounds. And I would say
any anything in there that you're comfortable with is going
to be a great trigger. And it it's really about
it's about the trigger weight, right. You don't want it

(01:09:02):
to be too heavy, but you also want that break
to be really consistent, so it's breaking at the same
weight every time. Uh. And then you also want the
break to be Uh. It's described in a number of ways,
but usually it's like you describe it as a crisp break. Right.
It's not mushy, it's not gritty. It's like you're just

(01:09:24):
pulling back, applying that consistent pressure and then all of
a sudden bang. Right, it's like kind of like glass breaking. Um.
That's a really good trigger that you're going to have
success with. And the nice thing is that a lot
of you know, if you're buying a new gun that
was manufactured within the last few years by one of
the big gun companies, it's probably going to have a

(01:09:45):
really good trigger in it, and it's probably going to
be adjustable. Um. And that's great. I mean, you may
not need an aftermarket trigger, but if you have an
old gun, um, that's definitely a great upgrade you can make.
So would you spectrum, George, what's the spectrum of like
weights that you're pulling on your triggers, even for guns

(01:10:06):
that you're not using to hunt with? Yeah, I mean
so I think the like the military, that's the mill
spec weight for like an a r I think is
like eight pounds UM. And that's you know that's a
decently heavy trigger is eight pounds um double digits is

(01:10:26):
incredibly heavy and incredibly long. Uh that you're gonna find
maybe in like um, like a revolver, right, like a
like a double action revolver, where it's just super long
and super heavy. Um. For for handguns, I mean even
handguns these days, you can you know, uh, five six

(01:10:47):
pounds is pretty common for for a new handgun. Um.
But yeah, if you're looking at at at a new
hunting rifle, three and a half to five pounds is
is probably what you're gonna be looking at. I'm gonna
guess that my nineteen seventy two semi auto Winchester does
not have a good trigger. Poll that was. That was

(01:11:09):
the first rifle I used in I remember I tried
to site that in at long ranges to take to
Mexico for cou'se deer hunt, and I could not understand
why the lead was flying all over the place and
couldn't group well. It. Uh, it was pretty obvious once
I started thinking about that. Um, speaking of the bullets
going all over the place, the last thing I want
to cover is shooting the elements and how that stuff

(01:11:33):
can affect your accuracy. Um in a white tail scenario
at least. So Jordan, what about the wind you talked
about earlier? How you know maybe you need to count
for wind in certain situations and what ranges? What I
actually have to think about wind at all? Knowing that
in a lot of white tail scenarios now I'm not
shooting that far out. Do I need to care about wind?
How do I count for wind? Should that factor in it? All? Yeah?

(01:11:58):
I mean I think within about three hundred yards unless
you're talking about like a gale and you're shooting a
very slow round. UM, probably not uh past three yards,
you're gonna want to be thinking about it. And the

(01:12:20):
problem with making wind calls is that it's very difficult. Um.
It's it's tough to judge if if you are in
a stationary position, what the wind is doing four hundred
yards away. Um. And that really goes back to just
having experience with that rifle and with that caliber and knowing, um,

(01:12:40):
what you want to do. And I mean me personally,
I'm not going to take a shot if I feel
like the wind is so strong and I'm making a
very you know, a longer distance shot, um, just because
I don't I don't know enough about the situation to
to make what I think is is ethical shot. Um.

(01:13:02):
But yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say, what
do you consider a gale force wind? Like, what's that
number for you? Yeah, I mean obviously it's not actually
gale force, um, but anything above and and it depends

(01:13:23):
to on the direction of the wind. Right, Like if
it's a tail wind coming from straight behind you, or
if it's a wind coming from straight in front of you, Um,
that's not going to affect the bullet whole lot. But
if it's coming from ninety degrees you're on your left
or you're right, Uh, that's gonna push it quite a
bit more. Um. If you want, like uh uh more

(01:13:45):
of a range of a lot of the well, all
of the um like ballistics calculator apps will make those
calculations for you, so you just plug in. Here's here's
my my cartridge. Uh, here's how fast it's going, and
you can see and you can play with those wind
numbers to see. Okay, at three yards the wind is
coming from directly on my right. Here's how much it's

(01:14:08):
gonna push the bullet um and that could be revealing,
but again it's gonna affect you a lot more if
you're making long distance shots within a couple hundred yards,
you know, it's probably not going to matter a whole lot. Okay,
Spencer year out there on the Great Plains a lot
South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, it's windy as hell out there,

(01:14:29):
has this factory in at all for you in the field.
Um now, and when you're talking about heavy winds, it's
not so bad if it's like a consistent heavy wind.
But as like more experienced shooters than me I pointed
out to me, if you're hunting in a Western state
and you're shooting across like three or four different coolies

(01:14:50):
um to your target, all those coolies can have different
like different thermals, and one can have the wind just
ripping through it and the next one may not have
much winded. On the other one, UM may have like
a medium amount of winded and just having inconsistent winds.
I think UM is like even a bigger problem than
having just a nine d degree wind that's like fifteen

(01:15:13):
or twenty miles an hour, but it's still not enough.
That's going to affect UM most shooters, I think the
bigger thing in in nasty conditions, whether it's like wind
or rain or snow, UM are your optics and you
can have it's really cheaped by scope covers, UM, and
you don't need them for every hunt, and not every

(01:15:34):
hunter needs them either if they're like shooting from an
elevated blind or something like that. UM. But if you
are just sitting on the ground a lot or leaning
against a fence post and you hunt in an area,
UM that's going to get rain or snow, get yourself
some scope covers, because you can have snow that totally
like fills up the front of your rifle scope and
you not even realize it, and then when it comes

(01:15:56):
time to shoot, you're trying to clean it out. And
then you're just smearing it um. And that's an idea,
So some cheap scope covers, uh could prevent that. Also,
just like putting a piece of tape over your rifle barrel,
I think Jordan could speak to the specifics of that.
But that will keep moisture out of your rifle barrel.
I think it's been proven that that doesn't affect accuracy

(01:16:17):
at all. It's not going to change the ballistics of
your bullet um. But it's just like a good practice
to to keep your barrel from you know, rusting out
or or getting moisture in there. But I think like
the biggest thing when we're talking about the wind and
rain and snow is just making sure that you're comfortable.
If if you can't like feel your fingers um or

(01:16:39):
you're distracted because sleet is hitting you in the face,
and uh, you can't like focus on your trigger pole
or acquiring um, you know, the target in your scope.
That's a way bigger problem than it actually like affecting
the performance of your gun. So just make sure that
you know you're dressed for the conditions and you don't
get swear be on the walk in um or that

(01:17:02):
your toes aren't freezing, and you're thinking about those things
because again, like Jordan said earlier, uh, your rifles are
gonna outshoot you. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's a great
point about making sure you are comfortable in the weather. Um.
And yes, I I believe that, I've I've I've seen

(01:17:22):
guys use electrical tape, um, the black electrical tape for
to cover your your barrel and that's not gonna that's
not gonna do anything. Um in terms of your shot.
You shouldn't worry about that, but it could affect your
shot if you get rain in there or or dirt
or something. Um. So yeah, the tapes a good strategy, Jordan.

(01:17:44):
Is there anything with snow or rain that would impact
or that would influence accuracy so much so that you know,
you would say, well, because of this, you know, all
the snow coming down and because of this cold rain,
I'm not going to shoot as long of a shot
as that would or wise, is there any kind of
ballistic impact that we should think about, you know, outside
of just wind. Yeah, now that's a great question. I

(01:18:08):
I feel that probably, Um, the rain is the rain
your visibility before they're gonna affect the bullet um. So
you know, if it's if it's pouring down rain or
the snow is really coming down hard, you're not gonna
be able to see that far out anyway, And so
it's not really going to be a question. Um. I

(01:18:31):
don't know specifically how much, like you know, a moderate rain,
it's going to impact the flight of a bullet. I
I would suspect very little. Um. But again, like with
everything else, it's gonna impact it more at longer distances
because that and everything affects it more when it's going slower.

(01:18:54):
So yeah, I think that that's probably not a situation
you should worry too much about in terms of your bullet,
but just make sure you can you can see your target. Yeah,
fair enough. I guess I got one final question, and
maybe you know your answer. You can repeat something we've
already talked about. But let's just say we have a

(01:19:15):
listener here who is a long time hunter, a good hunter.
He or she feels comfortable and confident out there. They've
killed a lot of deer with the bow, they've killed
plenty of deer with a gun, but they've always put
more of their time and emphasis and energy and getting
better at the bow hunting side. But this year, they
really they really want to give that extra love to

(01:19:37):
firearm season. If you could give them just one thing
out of the million things we talked about today, or
or something else entirely, if you want to give them
just one marching order, one takeaway, one action you want
them to take this year that's going to help them
be a more accurate, effective shooter of their firearm when hunting.
What would that one thing be that you want to

(01:19:59):
leave that person with a Jordan, I'll make you go first. Sure, yeah,
I would say, um, pick three field positions and just
get really good at it. Uh, get get really good
at at shooting from those three positions. UM. Do more

(01:20:19):
dry fire and shooting with you know, a bolt action
twenty two than with your actual hunting rifle. But certainly
don't ignore shooting with your hunting rifle. UM. But just
every time you go to the range, work on those
three positions and get really confident. Start at a hundred
yards or fifty yards and work your way out to

(01:20:41):
three or four yards. Um. And it's it's it's gonna
make you a better hunter. But it's also just kind
of personally fulfilling to to develop a skill like that. Um,
it's just a lot of fun. Yeah, Spencer, about you.
I think about this a lot with one of my
my buddies who was like the best archery deer hunter

(01:21:02):
I know, UM, and he is incredible at killing deer
at fifteen yards away, and a couple of years ago
I convince him to pick up a rifle and start hunting,
just because they game more opportunities and can travel more
and things like that. And he did that, and it
was super hard for him to turn off that archery
part of his brain that made him want to be
within fifteen yards and to perfectly play the wind and

(01:21:25):
um to like really limit your sight lines because we
talked about it a lot more. But when your bow hunting,
you want to be in a position to kill deer,
not not just see deer. Um. And if you're coming
from the bow hunting world and going to gun hunting,
you really have to think about how different your rifle
setups should be UM, which often means like giving yourself

(01:21:47):
the opportunity to see six hundred yards and and just
needing to like close the distance from that six hundred
to three hundred UM to make a shot. And so
really like, think about when you're scouting and when you're
looking at on X and when you're walking to your
tree stand to do a bow hunt, Like how you
would do this differently to kill one of these deer
with a gun, Because if you want to be like

(01:22:10):
a good gun hunter, it needs to be different. You
can't be haunting the same sort of setups and and
have that same mindset. Um, gun hunting is much easier
than archery hunting, but that doesn't mean that it's like
such a smooth transition that, um, you just take all
of your knowledge from this thing and apply to this
thing and you're going to kill more dear. Um. A

(01:22:32):
lot of it is just like trial and error. But again,
be thinking about how every gun hunt would be different
than a bow hunt when you're in those situations. Yeah,
that makes a lot of sense. Alright, guys, uh Spencer,
you're you're particularly good at this last thing, which is
plugging articles on the site. We've got a whole lot
of stuff. We've got a lot of stuff on this topic. Right,

(01:22:53):
Is there any plug you want to give for specific
articles or just you want to send them to the
menIt or what do you want to plug here? When
it comes to helping people learn more on this topic.
I was gonna bring this up whether or not you
prompted me, Mark, So I'm glad that you you threw
it out there for me. Our best content on choosing
a rifle and uh, customizing a rival and just being

(01:23:16):
a better, more accurate shot comes from Jordan's and so
the best content that we have. If you go to
the meat Eator dot com and you look at our
crew page, which has everybody like Steve Johannese, Mark yal
those folks, you're also gonna see Jordan's name there. Click
on Jordan's name and scroll back. He's been writing for us,
I think since twenty nineteen or something like that. Um,

(01:23:38):
if you're whether you're choosing a cartridge or you're trying
to be more accurate, Jordan rights the best stuff we
have on those topics. So Jordan's sellers on the Metator
dot com. Uh, you're gonna get more info than you
even need on this awesome Well. Uh, gentlemen, I appreciate
the time. This is good stuff, stuff that I needed,
and hopefully a lot of other people to thank you.

(01:24:00):
I like this new mark that is given John Hunters
some love and and killing four year year with a rival.
That's that's a lot of fun. I like it. We
gotta we gotta do a Western white tail gun hunt, Spencer.
I gotta join you in one of these and get
it done together. I'm into it, alright, guys. Cool, Thanks Park,
appreciate it all right, and that is a rap. Thank

(01:24:22):
you for tuning in. Like Spencer mentioned, be sure to
check out all the different stuff we've got going on
the Wired to Hunt website. Lots of great articles about
firearm hunting for deer and plenty others too, so I
hope you enjoy this one. Stay tuned. Next week we
will continue this discussion more bohoning focus, but all things

(01:24:42):
shooting and making sure we are more accurate in the field,
getting ready for our best season ever. Thanks for tuning in,
and until next time, stay Wired to Hunt.

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Ep. 553: Becoming a More Effective Whitetail Gun Hunter with Jordan Sillars and Spencer Neuharth

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