Ep. 901: Whitetails in Alaska? And Other Alaskan Deer Questions Answered with Bjorn Dihle and Colin Arisman

This week on the show we're discussing the surprising arrival of whitetails and mule deer to Alaska, my new sitka blacktail hunting film, and other questions related to Alaska's changing landscape. Joining me is author, Alaska resident, and blacktail deer hunting aficionado Bjorn Dihle and filmmaker Colin Arisman.

Connect with Mark Kenyon and MeatEater

Mark Kenyon on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook

MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips

Subscribe to The MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube

Shop Wired to Hunt Merch and MeatEater Merch

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week, in
the show, we are discussing the surprising arrival of white
tails and mule deer to Alaska for the first time
in record history. We're also going to be talking about
my new film featured on the meter to YouTube channel,
all about this question and my Sickle blacktail hunter last year.

(00:39):
And finally, we'll be exploring other questions surrounding the changing
landscape in Alaska. And joining me is Bjorn Dela and
Colin Arisman, the two guys that joined me for that hunt,
and two Alaska residents, expert blacktail deer hunters and damn
good folks. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

(01:02):
brought to you by First Life and their cameo for
Conservation Initiative. And today we are discussing my brand new
film that just launched on the Mediator YouTube channel last week,
and a whole lot of very interesting questions that led
to me going on this hunt and doing this project. Now,
as I just mentioned there at the top, the number

(01:24):
one question, the thing that inspired this entire adventure was
this rumor that started to pop up a few years
ago about white tails possibly showing up in Alaska for
the first time ever. When I read about that, I
immediately was fascinated. Could this be true? Where were they
showing up? Why were they showing up? You know, how

(01:45):
was this happening? And what did it mean? What did
it mean for the native blacktail deer, What did it
mean for other critters around there? What did it mean
for me as a you know, whitetail nut myself? All
these things we're running through my head at that moment.
In the months after I first heard about that, I
pitched a big podcast series about this. I wanted to

(02:07):
go up to Alaska and search for whitetails and interview
people about what was going on and why this was
happening and all those questions that I just mentioned to you,
And that podcast did not end up happening. But I've
been thinking about this idea ever since, and finally last
year we were able to put together a plan to
do some of those things. The plan was going to

(02:29):
be to head up to Alaska to do two things.
Number one, talk to some folks there, Alaskan residents about
what the reality is in the ground. I was going
to speak to someone from Alaska's Fishing Game Department, and
then I also wanted to chat with some people who
had actually seen some of these deer themselves. And then finally,
I also wanted to go and understand, you know, exactly

(02:51):
what were white tails showing up into. What was the
habitat like in southeast Alaska? How was this different than
typical whitetail country, And you know what about the native
deer there. I wanted to learn more about blacktails, Sika blacktails,
the deer that have been calling this place home for
thousands of years. What did that deer look like, act like?

(03:14):
You know, how was that going to be possibly impacted
by the arrival of white tails or mule deer. This
was what I wanted to figure out. I wanted to
kind of ground myself in the landscape with these deer
to better understand, you know, what all this meant. And
so that's what I did. We planned this trip. I
talked about it last fall on this podcast. I kind

(03:36):
of gave you the play by play of that hunt,
and now today what I want to do is take
a little bit bigger picture of view at that. I
want to discuss those questions in some more detail and
some of the answers I found, and I want to
talk a little bit more about, you know, what that
experience taught me and the folks that joined me on
that hunt, and what all of that might point two

(04:02):
for the future of Alaska and SIKA, blacktails and wildlife
have all sorts. So that is the plan for today.
Joining me are the two guys that joined me on
that trip. Bjorn Dila is one of those guys. He
is an author, He is a diehard blacktail deer hunter.
He has done work with TRCP and written many articles

(04:24):
for many publications and is a lifelong Alaska resident. And
he has seen some of the changes that we mentioned
in the film. He's seen them firsthand. He has actually
been one of the people that have seen mule deer
moving up into these new places, so getting that first
hand insight has been very interesting. And then also with
me today is Colin Eyersman. He was the camera operator

(04:47):
and filmmaker on this.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Trip with us.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
He also is a blacktail deer hunter and someone who's
spent a lot of time working on projects related to
wildlife and the conservation of wild places, so he's got
this really interesting perspective too. So with that said, I
think we should get into this conversation about this what
I find to be just fascinating topic about how Alaska's

(05:11):
changing and wildlife distributions are changing, and white tails are
continuously showing up in new places.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
So if you haven't.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Watched this film yet, I would highly encourage you to
do that maybe before you listen to this chat. It's
over on the media to YouTube channel. The title is
kind of a long one, but I think it starts
with the question you know white tails in Alaska? And
then I think the subtitle is hunting for Answers and
black tails in Alaska. So head on over to the

(05:40):
media or YouTube channel give that one a watch. I
really appreciate it, and I hope you enjoyed this chat.
Is we dive deeper into this topic and this adventure.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
All right with me?

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Now on the show, I'm joined by Bjorn Dila and
Colin Arisman. I almost I almost called you the thing
that the arms was calling you. Colin but I didn't,
so I caught myself. Welcome, Welcome to the show, guest.

Speaker 4 (06:10):
Thanks, thanks man.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
I'm glad we get to have a little reunion here.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
This is a great excuse to hang out with you
guys again after such a good trip last year. So yeah,
the plan for.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
Today is to talk a little bit about that trip. Now.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
After our black tail hunt last year, I came back
and recorded a podcast solo. Uh, you guys maybe saw
me post about that or talk about that, but basically
it was just me really quick off the cuff, first
thoughts on the trip. But during that podcast, I didn't
talk at all about, you know, the larger issue that
originally brought me there, and that kind of set the

(06:49):
theme for our for our time together. So that's kind
of where I want to start with this chat, is
to is to kind of look at that theme, those
first questions I had, and kind of get your as
perspective and thoughts on that. Because, as you guys know,
what originally started this whole thing for me was four
years ago or five years ago something like that. I

(07:10):
saw this article that came from Alaska Ficient Game that
basically said, hey, white tails might be and mule deer
are for sure in the state for the first time,
and then there was a whole bunch of kind of
announcements they had and related to that, and so ever
since then, I've thought, man, I want to learn more
about that. I want to get up there and see
this area for myself, see what this new possible white

(07:31):
tail country could be. And long story short, that led
us to spend that time together. We ended up talking
to a biologist there in Alaska, Roy Church. Well, you
and mc collin, we spent some time together with him
and he basically confirmed it for us right that, yes,
mule deer are in the state now for the first time.
White tails are knocking on the doorstep and possibly probably

(07:55):
are in the state. We just don't have one hundred
percent confirmation of it yet, but they're they're right there
around the very very edge at least. So that is
a long winded wind up to me asking you two,
what if you guys heard or seen when it comes
to these near new deer arriving in Alaska before I
gave you guys a call, is that something that was
on your radar at all? And I'll let you lead Bjorn,

(08:18):
because I think I reached out to you first on
this issue. What did you know about this whole thing
when I reached out to you first, you know last year?

Speaker 4 (08:25):
Well, I mean I had seen mule deer in the
Yukon in twenty seventeen on the Yukon River, which you know,
Yukon's right east of Alaska. And then I'd heard of
white tails, a white tail, like a straight white tail
up and then tier even so, yeah, I was definitely
on my radar. I knew they were around Skagway for

(08:46):
mule deer, and you know, just to confirm that, right
after our trip, my boys and I went up to
Anchorage and bought a truck and drove it back to
southeast Alaska. And the only animal we saw on the
whole drive through interior Alaska and Interier Yukon was a
mule deer. So they weren't, you know, they weren't. I

(09:07):
can remember maybe twenty sixteen some people in the Yukon
being like, hey man, we got cougars. Now they followed
them if they followed the deer up, And I was
like what, I didn't even know what species of deer
there was, just like, yeah, they followed the deer up.
There's cougars here watch out. I was like, Wow, that's new.
So yeah, what about you, Kellen?

Speaker 2 (09:27):
What was that something you've been hearing rumors of yet?

Speaker 5 (09:32):
Uh, there's a rumor that a white tail or mule deer,
something that's a non resident got shot up the valley
from where I live in Haines, But it's it's pretty
loose rumor. What people talk about a lot more where
I live is we're right at the edge of blacktail
habitat and we will occasionally have citing it's a blacktail

(09:52):
on the Chilcat Peninsula just south of Haines, and it
just it really shows how these deer on that low
elevation snowpack. So we'll have two or three low snow years,
the deer population will build up a little bit, and
then there'll be a big snow year.

Speaker 6 (10:08):
They're all going to die off.

Speaker 5 (10:10):
And you know, whether they're blacktail, white till meal deer,
when the years are mild, they're going to explore new
places and they're constantly pushing out. And then you know,
it's just really interesting how that snowpack and winter is
the limiting factor for any of these species.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
A bit, you're going to have an uptick this year,
and yeah, black tail settings as I got them around
my house, and you know, normally, after this winter, I
mean most winners, you don't see much. And this year
is like, you know, I'm seeing more deer.

Speaker 5 (10:39):
But then Skagway, like Beorn mentioned next town over from us,
and I didn't know about it until we were talking
with the biologist Mark, but it was fascinating to hear
how many mulis have been down around Skagway and we're
you know, thirty minutes from there by air, so they're
going to be, uh, what's happening in Skagway is going.

Speaker 6 (11:01):
To happen where I live, probably right.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
So so what Roy was telling us and what you know,
further research and study of my part has confirmed as
I started looking into other sources on this, was that,
you know, as that snow and as these winters are
becoming more and more mild, these deer are moving you know,
up from Canada farther and farther north into Canada. So
there's a number of studies coming out of Canada where

(11:26):
they're really seeing this, where they are seeing you know,
whitetail deer especially becoming you know, more and more of
a northern boreal species when historically they weren't, and they've
been going up through river bottoms, and there's been some
debate around if some of this has been due to
land use change, because there's also been you know, further
development occurring farther and farther north or pushing northwest across

(11:50):
Alberta and British Columbia heading towards Alaska. And so one
of the theories was that well, as there's been more development,
logging or roadbuilding or something like that, you know, that's
creating new edge habitat and suitable habitat for white tails
and other deer two. So that possibly could be part
of what's going on as well. But a couple of

(12:10):
studies looked at this specifically, looking at all the different
changes and what lines up the best with where white
tails are showing up now and and climate change changing
climate weather systems and the corresponding you know, ability for
white tails to survive there has been the biggest thing.
And you guys had both, you know, while we were

(12:32):
up there talking shared with me a number of different
changes you guys have seen. Jorn being a lifelong Alaska resident,
you had a lot that you could point to as
far as the changes you've seen just over the course
of your lifetime, can you speak to some of that?

Speaker 4 (12:48):
Uh, you know, I guess yeah. I mean the big
one that hit me was I spent a lot of
time on glaciers when I was younger and more spry,
and what would always shock me is I'd have the
USGS maps from seventies most of those, and then I'd
have my GPS and you'd be on the exact same
point on the glacier, but you'd be three hundred or

(13:08):
four hundred feet lower and You're just like, that can't
be right. So that that was my initial thoughts before,
like all this, it's like these maps are off or
this GPS is broken before you know, climate change back
then was only kind of just starting to get talked about.
And then since then, I mean, the extent of how
fast our glaciers are melting is insane. I live right

(13:33):
next to glacier. The deepest piece of ice in North
America is twenty five miles as the crow flies from me,
and so just having that front view of how fast
these glaciers are melting, you know, going through an ice
field with a map, and then I'll be like I'm
on the wrong glacier because there's a mountain ride in
front of me. And then you get the cord and

(13:53):
its's like, you know, I'm then exact same spot this
mountain wasn't map because it wasn't there thirty years ago.
The ice has melted whatever or was eight hundred feet
to reveal this eight hundred foot tall, mile long un
attack wo so that that the glacier rice is huge,
just seeing how fast that's melting. And you know, every
paper that I read is always like, well, actually we

(14:15):
were too conservative, and how fast these glaciers are melting.
They're actually going to be gone faster than the last
paper said. And another thing, just from commercial fishing for
ten years around northern southeast Alaska, just seeing the changes
in the ocean with the salmon that that's been you know,

(14:39):
I kind of got that the last heyday of King salmon.
Even then it was like, you know that the guy
fished with for most of that time, you know, he'd
been fishing since the seventies, and he was like, well,
you know, there's not necessarily we said, there is less kings,
but they're just much smaller too. And then during the
next ten years of fishing, was like, man, there's just
less kings every year. And then you know our two

(15:00):
biggest rivers in Alaska, the Yukon and cusco Quinn. People
can't fish salmon there and they've been fishing salmon for
ever because there's just not salmon there anymore. So those
two are like and I could go on and on
and on and on, but those are the two ones
that just like, can't you can't ignore those living here,
I mean, because salmon and glaciers are such a part

(15:22):
of everyday life here.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
So, yeah, what have you seen, Colin.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
You're a little bit newer to Alaska, but have you
been seeing or hearing from other folks anything related to this?

Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (15:33):
I get to travel around the state quite a bit
working on phone projects, and I think the most striking
stuff recently for me is just talking to people who
live in communities in the Arctic. And my my friend
works on a research related to studying trees moving north
into the tundra. And you can't have a more striking

(15:55):
example than that, Like, you know, in the last five
years seeing trees growing, forests are beginning to grow in
places that haven't had them. I mean, it's wild and
the permafrost is melting fast enough. The rocks that are
in underneath the soil that have been locked up in

(16:16):
the ice for thousands, hundreds of thousands of years, they're
coming in contact with water for the first time, and
they're literally releasing acid rock drainage, which looks like rust.
So crystal clear rivers that have had salmon runs have
had great grayling fishing are now having these events where

(16:37):
just like this, toxic water flushes through them. And so
these aren't just you know, the seasons changing a bit.
These are like the entire ecosystem is changing in these
wild ways, and there's no doubt that's related to climate change.
Where I live, I haven't been there super long, but

(16:57):
we have a house and Haines and I really like
to back country ski and talking to folks. Fifteen years ago,
you could reliably ski from sea level. We had a
solid snowpack all winter long down at sea level. You
could ski up to the tops of the mountains. And
this spring there's basically, you know, zero snowpack most of

(17:18):
the winter down at sea level, and that's just it's
a crazy change in fifteen years. I feel like a
lot of the folks I talk to, you know, around
the state. It's twenty ten. It is very different than
twenty twenty five in terms of what you can do
and what's happening with the ecosystems.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
So much of this h this climate related stuff gets
muddied up with politics and people get weird about it
because of that. But when you simply look at your
lifetime of outdoor experiences and what you've seen, and how
things have changed these days, even for someone down in
the lower forty eight, it's getting harder and harder to

(17:59):
deny what we're seeing. And now, you know, here in
Michigan where I am right now, things aren't quite as dramatic.
I feel like when you head west, you start seeing
things even more starkly with the increased fire season and
the loss of snowpack and the warming rivers and all
of that that's becoming really hard to ignore. But then
when you go up north to where you guys are,

(18:20):
where you know, the rate and the severity of change
is dramatically increased compared to the you know, other parts
of the country because those those changes are more severe
near the poles. You know, when you hear from folks
like you guys who are just seeing this massive level
of change that's not just like something you see, but

(18:41):
changes ways of life, you know, whether it be commercial
fishermen or native peoples up there who depend on these
salmon runs, or you know, hunters and anglers who are
seeing the critters that they hunt either disappearing or moving
farther north, or interacting with the new species. That that's
pretty compelling to me when I hear that kind of thing,
Because you know, talking head on the news, that's one

(19:03):
thing that's that's easy to say, I forget it. But
when you hear from someone who's just a hunter wrangler
like I am, who is in a brand new situation
then they were twenty thirty years ago, I can't ignore that.
At least you were telling me, Bjorn, that that moose had.

Speaker 4 (19:22):
Been moving into new areas.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
I've heard about beaver's moving farther and farther north as
those forests head north, right, and that's changing ecosystems. What's
another one? You said that fishers have been showing up
there by you.

Speaker 4 (19:35):
Bjorn, we got influx of fishers. We didn't have those,
you know, fifteen twenty years ago, I think maybe twenty
years ago I saw my first track of a fisher.
But yeah, I mean there's all sorts of stuff, and
the you know, some of them are really bad, like
what's happening with unglitz. A lot of the ungulate species
up north with these rain events that were getting in

(19:55):
these freezing rain events in the winter, and you know
that's hurting a lot of caribou populations. The sheep, all
sheep are like those big snow, warm events, rain events
all times.

Speaker 5 (20:12):
That whole herd in western Alaska of sheep got wiped out.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
Well east, Yeah, I mean I can remember first trip
in the Brooks Rangers, just like, man, there's sheep on
every mountain. This is awesome. And then I you know,
I remember going I think there was a big brain
snow event a couple of years later, and I came
back and I was like, oh, well, they're significantly less sheep,
same area. And then five years after that, more of

(20:36):
that stuff, and I don't see any sheep and fifty
miles you know, or maybe I saw one little herd
where before it was like every mountain has I heard
a sheep on it? So it's it is just you know,
politics aside. It's you can't be here and not you
know if you if you've been here and you're paying attention.
It's just like it's it's more than knocking on your door.

(21:00):
It's in your living room. Literally where I live, not
we're getting these glacial outburst floods. It was from climate change.
And I mean, I don't know how many houses got
flooded near where I live last year, and we don't
know what's gonna happen next year. It's gonna happen every year.
Keep so a glacial damn outburst. It's usually there back

(21:22):
up in the ice field, and I live right on
the edge of the Juno ice field. You'll get like
a kind of like a glacial lake. All the snow
melt and rain will fill up in the lake. And
then every year this didn't happen before, but just due
to the glacier rapidly receding, it formed this kind of
lake reservoir thing. Then every year that that ice dam breaks.

(21:46):
In the last couple well probably five years, but it's
getting significantly larger. So last year, I mean, I don't
know how many calling you might remember you're nearby, it
was something like a hundred houses got flooded, you know,
people lost, and yeah, it was huge, you know, and
it's just like we Yeah, you have that sort of

(22:07):
scenario that anyone who questions climate change, you know, you
literally have that happening. It comes in. Yeah, so it's it's.

Speaker 6 (22:18):
Very real, you know.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
When we're up there on the Mountain Jorn. One of
the things you mentioned was, you.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Know, how how nature has never been static, rights, It's
always been changing. There has been periods of climate change
over the course of the Earth's history numerous times. Right,
But something's you know, really different right now, and people
like to bring that up. People say, well, the earth
climate has always been changing, therefore we should not be

(22:57):
worried about what's happening right now, or there should be
no impetus put on us to do anything about it.

Speaker 4 (23:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
That's one of the arguments that you'll hear from people
who want to deny it or diminish it. But a
really important thing to note is that these previous periods
of climate change occurred over tens of thousands, if not
millions of years, right, They were very slow. When you
look at the timeline of the Earth. The change we're
seeing is similar actual amounts of change, but we're seeing

(23:28):
it in one hundred years versus one million years, and
so what that means is that these wildlife species that
historically some were able to adapt and evolve to deal
with that change, Now when you're getting a rate of
change like that in one hundred years, you know, these
critters can't keep up. And then on top of that,
you also have the incremental impacts of everything else that

(23:49):
we humans are doing to wildlife, so whether that be
habitat change or other forms of pollution, or you know,
our own incremental take and harvest, or you know, fragmentation
of it.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
To add all of these.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Many many, many different human caused impacts stacked on top
of this much much faster rate of climate change than
while ever used to, you know, that's why you see
so many critters really struggling now, more so than they
ever had before. And that's why you know, the climate
impacts at this point are are so much more concerning
than you know, the historical periods that.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
Some of these species have seen.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Now that's not to say that some of these historical
climate change events still did knock out a lot of
species even without humans, So you can't you can't. You
can't just kind of wish this thing away and say, well,
it's natural, no worries.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
Well, I think even if you know, even if you
believe it's natural, and like we we have had glaciation
periods and then warming periods. I can't remember how many
we've had in the last two million years, but it's
been you know, more than just a couple. Are this,
whether you know, you believe we are contributing to it,

(25:05):
we still got it. Like, as a society, we need
to start getting ready for what we may be facing.
And I think that's where it's really like, you know,
we really need to be listening to scientists. We really
need to be thinking about a future plan because it
you know, it doesn't matter whether or not you believe
it or not it's or if we're contributing to it. Ultimately,

(25:27):
we still need to be prepared for what's going to happen.
And like, you know, a lot of the native folks
here and you know, one of the big stories is
this great flood that happened in southeast Alaska, and you
know it a lot of people died. And whether that
was some giant glacial damn outburst somewhere during a colder period.

(25:48):
I don't know, but like that is a story you
hear a lot a good buddy of mine who's a storyteller, Like,
that's a story. He keeps coming back to how many
people died, People ran up the mountains, all the bears supposedly,
you know, surviving bears, and people kind of competed for
whatever little resources they could find. So, you know, regardless

(26:12):
it's happening, as a society, we need to start thinking
preparation for how we're going to deal with this.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
What's your guys' sense of what that preparation or willingness
to adapt is. At least there in Alaska, are are
folks around you, your friend's family, other people in the community.
Are are people recognizing what we're talking about and and
coming to terms with that?

Speaker 4 (26:38):
Bjorn?

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Or is this something that even there by you people
are trying to debate or nor?

Speaker 4 (26:45):
I mean, you will meet some people that want to debate,
but it's, you know, ultimately kind of just a waste
of time. And I think a lot of us, myself included,
are guilty of just feeling like, oh, I'm so small,
I can't do anything. This is such you know, Nature's
so big, and I mean, what do you do to
you know, how do you how do you counter this?

(27:06):
But I think, you know, anyone living in the Arctic,
like Colin was saying, is like you can't be like climate.
You know, anyone up there is like as obvious and.

Speaker 5 (27:15):
Yeah, there's no ideology is not gonna ideology doesn't how
you see it. It's just it's interesting. Like the farther
you go north, the more it's just a ubiquitous like
answer that hey, this is this is what's happening.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
So I guess my my one thing is like I
don't know about you, Colin, but I don't Yeah, I
don't know. Like it's like people I don't hear a
lot of people in Alaska being like we can do
this to stop it. I Don'm not trying to be doomsday.
I mean, this is how nature works. It's dynamic. Like
we talked. I'm not saying we should just go pollute
everything and drive you know, F three fifties everywhere and

(27:48):
leave them modeling. But it's not that's not really a
conversation I've had with other Alaskans or you know that
you know, like down south, I feel like there's a
lot of people who are like, we can stop this
or we're all going to die. In Alaska, it's like
it's just it's just happening, and people are trying to
do their best to adapt.

Speaker 5 (28:08):
So, yeah, the tribal government in the community I live
in is undertaking a year long process called a Climate
Adaptation Plan, So they're basically going to look at the
climate impacts to harvest, dying and safety and way of
life for the community and then develop mitigation strategies within

(28:28):
the community. I mean, that's it's I think, really forward thinking,
and we're going to be supporting some of that with storytelling.
So I think that I'll learn a lot through that,
and I think they're going to be doing a lot
of work in our region that hasn't been done before.
And I think in terms of, you know, how I

(28:50):
try and make a difference in my life, I think
we've been kind of hoodwinked with this idea that our
personal choices, you know, turning off the lights is the
way we're going to deal with climate change. And I
think a lot of those strategies actually came out of
the oil lobby and to kind of pressure people that
make change little changes in their personal life rather than

(29:13):
push for big systems changes, which is really where things
are gonna get reshape from. And so I try, and
you know, I think it's obviously important to do those
small things, but I think we've been kind of conditioned
to thinking that like changes, you know, not driving your

(29:33):
car when it's the you know, question is a lot
bigger around how does the grid work? And what is
our infrastructure options? And so I think just being being
engaged and curious and learning about that stuff and how
you can contribute to policy changes in your community or
in your state is really important.

Speaker 6 (29:53):
And then as a person in Alaska, I.

Speaker 5 (29:58):
Think a way we can make it different is to
try and protect places that are going to be vulnerable
to the changes. And a friend of mine, Roman Dial,
who's a climate researcher who's walked seven thousand miles across
the Brooks Range in this lifetime studying this stuff, he
talks about how the you know, the Arctic is in
Alaska is so large that it's going to be able

(30:18):
to absorb these changes in a way that other places
can't because it's not fragmented, it's not heavily degraded by development.
And I think That's a really cool wave of thinking
about it. If you give an ecosystem space, it will
be able to adapt, it'll be able to heal itself.

(30:38):
But the ability of a place or cover is really
impacted when you start putting roads through it and start
heavily developing it with human impact. So I think keeping
these big chunks of the state, like the Tongus or
like parts of the Arctic intact where they the natural

(30:59):
eCos some processes can continue. That's something I put a
lot of energy into train to be part of those movements.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Another biologist said to me just the other day,
how there's never a good time to fragment caribou range,
but now we're talking about the ambler rode specifically up
in the Arctic. But now now is the worst time
to be fragmenting, you know, wildlife habitat. With all these
rapid changes, they've already got enough stressors going on.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
So yeah, yeah, So so to that point, you know,
there're another study that I've read a good bit about
has taken a look at all of the documented population
shifts across the world, and there are this there's a
rapid not rapid, there is a mass shift of wildlife

(31:52):
population distribution north, it really is towards the pole. So
for in the southern hemisphere, some of these pieces are
moving south, but here in the northern hemispone, they're moving
north to cooler, more you know, better suited habitats for species,
and then up in elevation as well. So when possible,
you know, critters are going to adapt to whatever changes

(32:14):
are happening. Problem is that, like you guys just said,
especially in the lower forty eight where there's more and
more development, oftentimes your habitat is fragmented or blocked, or
you've got these islands of habitat created by development and roads, businesses,
industrial corridors. All these different things are keeping species from
being able to adapt in the ways that they might otherwise,

(32:35):
as they can in many parts of Alaska. So yeah,
there's all of these different ripple effects of this stuff,
and then you've got everything else compounding. So it's like, oh, yeah,
there's this climate thing, but then there's also this habitat fragmentation.
There's also development, there's also energy extraction, there's also invasive species,
there's also pollution. There's all of these different things that

(32:58):
are impacting the wildlife that we like to watch or hunt,
or that feed our families or whatever it is. Your
connection is to to to wild animals.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
But let's talk about one of those animals. That's blacktails.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Of course, you know, the idea of white tails showing
up in black tail country is what got me interested
in black tails. But you guys have been diehards for
much longer than me. You've been flying the black tail flag.
What makes blacktails special to you?

Speaker 4 (33:28):
Bjorn?

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Why do you care so much about this species?

Speaker 4 (33:32):
I mean, sick of black tails for me is always
like home. You know, that's like that's the animal. It's
always reminds me of home. You know. I can remember
my dad when I was really little, you know, coming
home with sick of black tail, and that was always
what we ate and always you know, listening to stories
about hunting, just you know, so badly wanting to hunt,

(33:53):
go hunt. And you know, for me, other people it's
like probably you Mark, He's like, man, you just dreamt
about hunting white tails growing up. I dreamt of hunting
sick of blacktails. Yeah, and then yeah, and then just
you know it's like here, we're so lucky where I live.
We have like a good healthy, stable population of sick
of blacktails, and we're allowed to take quite a few

(34:14):
animals enough to feed the family for all all years.
So it's so for yeah, for me, it's and it's
just what bonds honestly, me and my brothers together. You know,
that's that's kind of that hunting connection is what's kept
us close all these years. And you know, everything from
going through the brush as you saw when we went

(34:36):
to get into the top of the mountain, the butchery
and the animal to sharing it with family, that's always been,
you know, such a special and important part of my life.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
So I gotta I gotta commend you when in the film,
when we were editing the film, we ran across this
little rift that you had where you talked about, how
you know, going through the jungles of the tongus were
kind of a metaphor for for like the darkness of
your mind and then when you break out of it
into the alpine. How you know, that's that's kind of

(35:09):
like heaven for you. Ah, did you spend days and
weeks planning that ahead of time to get that line
just right or did that actually come to you in
the moment, because that was so damn good.

Speaker 4 (35:19):
Oh thanks, I thought it was a little cheesy. Uh,
It's something I've always thought because you know, the other
the other side of the coin in growing up in
Southeast Alaska's it's dark, it's rainy, it's isolated. So a
lot of a lot of people here feel kind of like, man,
I'm kids, especially, like I want to get out of here.

(35:39):
But the truth is like, once you get in the woods,
it's a whole different story. And some like a lot
of people are scared of the woods because they're so
dark and tangled. And but you know, for me, I
can remember early on as a kid like teenager, you know,
hating everything about life. But then going into the woods,
going hunting and going through the woods, and all of

(36:00):
a sudden you're getting up to the alpline. It was
just like this epiphany for me, it was like, holy moly,
this is this is what it's about. Like I've been
stuck down in the fog, and I'm above the fog
and I can see and I see how amazing life is,
how amazing all this stuff is. And then gradually, over
time I just learned to love the deep, dark, tangled

(36:20):
woods as well. But you know, for me like getting up,
So that's like kind of that was kind of my
origin story as far as like being whoa, this is
life is actually really cool when you get out of
the darkness and the fog.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
So yeah, yeah, I can. I can attest it proved
true on my visit there for sure. What about you, Kellen,
You you were singing blacktails praises a lot while we
were spend some time together. I believe you said there
by far or at least you know, you said that
this specific kind of hunt was your favorite in the world,
or the blacktails specifically, regardless of where they were, it

(36:57):
was your favorite. But something like that's true.

Speaker 6 (36:59):
Right, Yeah? Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
Well.

Speaker 5 (37:01):
I grew up in Vermont, and I didn't grow up
in a hunting family, but I knew I wanted to
hunt since I was like seven, So I just, you know,
school hard knocks, wandering around in the woods trying to
still hunt white tails in Vermont. Needless to say, I
never got a buck, and it wasn't until my early

(37:23):
twenties when I moved out to Washington State I got
into still hunting blacktails with bow and got my first
couple deer and just going from white tails to blacktail,
like seeing that bubble increase a little bit, like blacktails
are an animal you can still hunt on the ground
in a way that it's just really hard with whitetail,

(37:45):
And I think that really helped me fall in love
with them was just I found this little patch of
old growth outside Seattle, and I'd like walk between the
clear cuts and the old growth, just you know, I'd
spend all day covering two thousand yards just creeping through
these big old trees and it was an awesome experience. And
eventually I just realized that I wanted to see what

(38:08):
Washington State looked like before it was heavily logged, and
that's kind of what brought me to Southeast Alaska and
then had some really cool early hunting experiences with blacktail
during rut and just the way you can call blacktail
in bringing bucks in with the call, and it's super exciting.

(38:29):
So I think, you know, the experience of hunting blacktails
and the rut is super different than the alpine experience,
and I love both of those ways of hunting them.
They're totally different, though, But yeah, learning to blow the
call and seeing deer charge in is a pretty incredible experience.
In November and the alpine thing. It always feels harder

(38:51):
to fit alpine hunts in in the summer for me,
but we usually make it up high a couple times
a year in August, and it's a I think you
said this in the in the film, but it's uh,
it's very different than a rut hunt, where there's a
little bit more strategy, a little bit more skill involved.
Like if you can make it up physically into the alpine,

(39:12):
you have a pretty good shot at getting a buck
if you're if you're up there.

Speaker 6 (39:16):
In prime time.

Speaker 5 (39:17):
So it's just an incredible experience to get up to
three thousand feet and you're in a big meadow with
the rainforest below you. You can usually see all the
little islands and water stretching out below you. And on
a good day you can get up there at sunset
or sunrise and look out and see you know, handful
of bucks feeding together. I mean, I think they're living

(39:40):
the best days of their life when they're up there.
I think you can feel that that the animals are
just happy, and you can and feel safe, like if
you're a wild animal that gets chased around by wolves
and you're up there and you've got all the food
you want. Like they're living there, they're living their best
life up there, and it's cool to just be around it.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, when we were on top of that peak looking
down into that last kind of amphitheater where all those
deer were there before we took a shot that was
pretty like Edenic just seeing so many Deerly the film,
the cut doesn't even really show just how many deer
were in that that kind of bowl. There were so
many deer spread all throughout. Some you know, there was
the two sparrings, some were bedded, some were feeding, some

(40:22):
were just milling around. I mean it was really like
a It was quite the miniature serengetti there laid out
in front of us.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
That stood out to me.

Speaker 4 (40:31):
Yeah, I mean I also should for listeners. I mean,
we were in a remote spot and you know where
I usually hunt, it's it's not like that. You know,
it's like the bucks are creeping at the oil plane
and whatnot. So we had, you know, we had a
fantastic zone where those those deer hadn't been touched and

(40:53):
they're that way like on the opener, and then after
that they they definitely get pretty pretty creepy. So yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
So so other than that, Bjorn, what what stood out
to you about our trip? You know, you saw the film,
you lived the thing yourself. When you look back on
that hunt, what what what were your thoughts in the experience.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
Was it pretty standard?

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Did anything seem special or particularly interesting to you? Or
is this just another just another day as a black tailer?

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Well, I think I told you Mark. There was this
this bear hunt guy named carl Lane, and there was
a picture of him on top of the mountain we
went on that Grandfather Trail, that's where the bears walk
on the same spot, so over you know, decades, hundreds
or in some cases honestly thousands of years, and there

(41:45):
was that picture. As a kid, I saw of Carline
on top of the mountain next to that Grandfather Trail,
and I've just always been you know, that was such
like as a little kid, You're like, oh man, that's
what I want. I want to be there, so for me.
And then Carlaine was huge in keeping the island we
were hunting from being completely eroded and clear cut. He

(42:07):
brought a case against this to the Supreme Court and
you know, fought like ten years before that Island was
turned you know, designated wilderness monument. So for me it
was always like I never knew Carl. I knew other
guides who hunted, you know, the other guides who hunted
underneath him. The young guides are now old men, So

(42:29):
I never knew Carl, but I knew a couple of
different guides who hunted underneathneath him. So it's for me
it was just a really special experience to be like, yeah,
it wasn't. Because we had a bit more budget than
you know, I have on like my personal life. We
were able to go to that mountain, and for me
it was really special just to be up there on

(42:49):
that trail, and I thought it was really cool to
even thinking of the context of you Mark being like,
you know, you shot that deer like three four yards
from that Grandfather trail where carline the picture of Amazon.
I was like, Wow, that's that's some pretty powerful stuff
when I think about this, you know, guy who fought

(43:11):
so hard in the seventies for bear deer and hunters
and anglers of the future. Then you hear you are
shooting you're deer right off that trail, I thought, Man's
that's a really special moment.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
So yeah, yeah, that's pretty incredible. What about you, Kellen?
What what were your thoughts.

Speaker 5 (43:33):
I mean, anytime you can get up there, I think
you're going to look back at the end of your
life and count all the days, all the trips you
got got to go up in the alpine like that
and super special.

Speaker 6 (43:47):
I think the first alpine I had where we got
up and blew my mind.

Speaker 5 (43:52):
I didn't know what I was in for, and it
definitely changed how I was thinking about my life and
getting older. And you know, I'm in my mid thirties now,
but I it's like, I gotta gotta start taking care
of myself, like I, this is uh. I don't have
kids yet, so I'm sure when you have kids you
start thinking about it that way. But it was like, no,
I need to do this every year until you know,

(44:14):
I'm seventy or something. It's that important to me. So
to have the opportunity to go up there for work
is incredible.

Speaker 6 (44:20):
It's awesome, man, And.

Speaker 5 (44:22):
You guys are the right people to do it with too.
Like I, it's actually special enough to me. I don't
want to go up there and do those hunts with people.
I don't that don't have the same philosophy on it,
like it's a special thing.

Speaker 6 (44:33):
I don't want someone to take it too lightly. So
that meant a lot. I think you brought you brought
the eight Spirit to him.

Speaker 4 (44:39):
Mark.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
Yeah, well, I uh, I would say right back at
you guys.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
You were the perfect companions to introduce me to a
place like that. I appreciate so much the sense and
the knowledge of the history that you guys had, and
it was so great for me to get to be
with youeople who understood not just the history of it,
not just the qure we we're after, but also kind
of like the the story of the landscape and the ecosystem,

(45:09):
and you know, current and past threats to these deer
in that place. And I found all of that really interesting.
I love you know, I'm not the idea of just
going somewhere and just shooting an animal is not terribly
appealing to me. What's what's appealing to me is going
somewhere and immersing myself in that landscape as as best
as you possibly can, and learning all about and understanding

(45:31):
the context. I think you know, to to hunt and
kill an animal, it's not just a trigger pull. It's
not just that meat in the freezer. It's it's kind
of the full experience becomes what you bring home with you,
those stories, the history, the understanding of that place and
and what it means, and all that I brought home

(45:53):
with me. And a lot of that is because because
you guys were great teachers. So I I consider myself
very lucky that I got to have not just an
incredible opportunity to be in Alaska to hunt and harvest
a blacktail deer, but to do it with two people
who had a lot to share along the way.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
That, uh, that was pretty special.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
That that said, though, uh, sick of blacktails, Let's let's
talk about them a little bit more specifically as far
as how they're doing. How are blacktails doing in southeast
Alaska right now? And what's what's the future look like?

Speaker 4 (46:37):
Jorn? Uh, Well, we were hunting the ABC Islands and
right now, I think you know everyone, those islands are
more intact, there's you know, there definitely are some white
swa swaths of clearcuts, and unlike in the lower forty eight, uh,
clearcuts clear cut logging prevents present some problems for our

(46:59):
sick of blacks up here and One of the big
problems is we do have these big snow events. So
when we have a big snow event, and especially in
areas that have had a lot of clear cut logging,
they don't have that those big trees winter habitat trees
to protect them from the heavy snowfalls, and so we'll

(47:20):
have these huge die offs, and I've seen them. I
mean it's tremendous. It goes from you know, after a
year of a big die off. You know, we'd see
like we saw like what thirty deer, forty deer in
a day. We'd see like a dough for lucky, same
same mountain. You know, you know where you hunt hard

(47:40):
all season. I've had, you know one season where I
hunted hard all season and I did not get a buck,
which you know, I usually have my freezer totally full
of deer meat. So you know, in the ABC Islands
we're doing pretty good. Unit two and you at three

(48:00):
has some more problems. Unit two is Prince of Wales
and Unit three is are Central Islands, and there are
you know, every zone's different and every zone has different
dynamics and every year is different. But kind of the
bigger thing that we've seen is when we have these
big clearcuts. One. You know, they actually do offer feed,

(48:25):
like more feed for deer for the first thirty years,
but if you have a big snow event, you have
a massive die off. Another thing. After thirty years or so,
the forest centers stema exclusion. That's where basically all these
spruce trees grow up so close they block out light

(48:45):
so you have no understory. And and here because we're
colder then like somewhere like Washington, the forest can be
like an a stemic exclusion for like well over a
century before it becomes decent wildlife habits had again. So
people like the Mule Deer Foundation and the New Blacktail

(49:07):
Foundation are really pushing for you know, in the past
we've for logged areas where we've just done commercial thinning,
and they're pushing for wildlife thinning, which is like, you know,
you still can go back and log the second girls
at some point, but it just takes a little more
time and you can create more habitat that's more appropriate

(49:28):
for sick of blacktails. So you know, here some people
in Prince of Wales, you know, and that's where most
of the hunting pressure is. Most people go to Prince
of Wales because there's so many roads from the logging
operations there. The people, you know, also recognize that they're
just one bad snow year away from losing their deer.
And that's what happened in the Central Islands where there

(49:48):
should just be deer everywhere. But the Central Islands had
a massive amount of clear cut logging in the fifties
and sixties up in the seventies, and then that was
followed by this mass couple of year winter dumps of snow,
so that and you know, you can't you also do
have to factor in just that heavy snow. When you

(50:10):
get the heavy snows, that's when the wolves like just
go to town, like they can't hunt that well when
they don't have good snow. But when they have good snow,
you know, that combination of not having feed wolves, predation,
weaker unglits. You know, then the neonates get hammered by
the black bears. So this combination of logged big winners

(50:34):
predators created this dynamic. My best understanding because I fall
I've you know, looked in at quite a bit in
the Central Islands basically where there should be deer everywhere,
Like people weren't really able to hunt for decades or
they were allowed like one buck a year and I'm
allowed six where I'm at, And it's starting it seems
like it's starting to get a little bit better in

(50:55):
some of the areas in the Central Islands, but still
there's just no there just should be deer everywhere. And
just because you know, the massive clear cut logging, big
Winner and predators just kind of all contributed to a
massive die off. So, you know, going into the future,
it's just like, I think we just got to think

(51:18):
how we're going to do these logging you know, logging all,
you know, have a more holistic approach to logging. That's
something that you know, I think a lot of us
calling me feel passionate about. We definitely want, you know,
there to be a logging industry, sports small mills, but
we just want it done in a way that is
conducive to wildlife. And it can be done. That's the thing,

(51:41):
can one hundred percent be done. So we're hopeful that
that is what we the direction we can go.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
So, so to oversimplify, is the desired method moving forward
to not do these wholesale clear cuts like they've done
in the past, and then secondly to do this wildlife
thing for second growth versus something else. Would that be
the oversimplified.

Speaker 4 (52:04):
Well, these whole thought, these huge you know, clearcuts are
still the best way for foreign corporations to make money.
You know, it's one and done sort of deal. And
that was like, you know, we had like they're like
Asian corporations in the fifties and sixties that were doing
most of the logging. The pulp mills were owned by
like Japan and I don't know where else. So on

(52:26):
a local level, like I'm calling in my in most
Southeast Alaska's perspective, there's just like we would like it
to just be done in a way that benefits locals.

Speaker 5 (52:36):
Yeah, Like if you want to build something here, the
lumber is getting shipped up on a barge from Seattle,
super expensive, and it's cheaper to buy locally milt lumber.
But we don't have local programs in place that incentivize
and support logging production for our communities. So you know,

(52:58):
the log it's crazy like locally and the wood comes
up from Seattle and then the wood that's clearcut here
is sent down south, and we just want to be.

Speaker 6 (53:07):
The community for the community.

Speaker 5 (53:09):
And you know, our friend, my friend Gordon Chew is
one of the only people logging on this small scale.
He cuts previously clearcut areas thirty forty years after the
clearcut he's going back into bring down second growth, thin
out the stands. So he takes you know, two out
of three trees, one out of three trees creates space.

(53:31):
He's making the forest healthier, but he's also dropping some
really nice straight wood that's come up and he's selling
that for a good price in the community. But it's
super hard for them. It's not something that the force.
So even though he's doing a service for the community,
for the ecosystem, he's doing the model we all want
to see, there's so many roadblocks in place for him.

(53:52):
So I think we need to see programs that facilitate
that sort of second growth thinning logging operation and make
it easier for people and subsidize that work.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
So then, what's your guys' take on some of the
proposals and executive orders and things we've seen here in
the last couple of months related to logging. I've heard
word of the roadless rule being rescinded in the Tongus
National Forest again subsidizing dramatic increases in logging across parts

(54:28):
of our national forests. Does that concern you or does
that sound okay, we need more logging. What's the read there?
And you did a great film all about the Tonguus
and these issues, Colin. I know you've got a lot
of background on this.

Speaker 5 (54:43):
Yeah, just as a starting point, I think it's really important.
It's very different than the lower forty eight. So I
think just making it clear to folks, like when we
talk about large scale logging operations in the Tongus in
southeast Alaska, we're talking about cutting high quality old growth
and there's not that much of it left. So this

(55:03):
is not we're not talking about tree farming. We're not
talking about, you know, a productive cycle where every thirty
forty years we recut these stands. Like I'm a I'm
for tree farming. That's great. We don't have that economy
anywhere in Alaska. So the only stuff that pencils out

(55:24):
for a large scale timber sale is these last high
quality stands old growth, which are just as important as
the black tail deer. So we're basically just fighting over
scraps at this point, you know, most of that, most
of this high quality old growth that has a lot
of value has been cut already, and the stands that

(55:45):
are left are either really important to communities or they're
in really remote places, and it's just it increases the
ecological importance of these last stands. So when we see
you know, these administration changes where stuff comes back on
the chopping block, it's all hands on deck, you know,

(56:06):
try and try and delay, try and pause, try and
block it, because this stuff isn't when they clear cut
these these old you know, eight hundred year old stands
that are our critical winner blacktail habitat. That stuff doesn't grow,
it will grow back, it'll come back in thirty years,
though it's just not it doesn't provide those opportunities to

(56:30):
the community or to wildlife, and it's not going to
provide those for several hundred years. So it's just like
when we get in these conversations with folks who maybe
don't see eye to eye with us, I think it
often comes down to people are.

Speaker 6 (56:42):
Like trees regrow.

Speaker 5 (56:44):
This is a sustainable resource, and it's just it might
be a tree that regrows, but it doesn't provide the
same services it's not the same force for hundreds of years.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
And the realm this rule is what would for deck
is remaining stands of old growth for us. And you know,
Colin's completely right. I can't remember what the percent of
what we have left of old growth even in southeast Alaska,
those really productive old growth stands that are whatever the
tree trunks, you know, wider diameters, and so the road
this rule will protect those old little scraps of of

(57:23):
what we have left. And we still have like five
thousand plus miles of logging roads in the Taugas, you know,
and it's like we're all for the Gordon Chew operation,
you know, like that's what we want, and we don't
want those big corporations subsidized. We want the We want
the small logging operations that utilize existing roads that.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Are going anyways infrastructure.

Speaker 4 (57:48):
The road this rule doesn't hinder development except for the
development of billion new roads to access those remaining bits
of super ecologically productive old growth. For so it's it's
like there's there's no reason to get rid of that

(58:10):
road in this rule besides benefiting bigger corporations. And sure,
I'm sure the road this rule, like you know, maybe
we'll slow down some of the smaller guys in certain ways,
but we need to work around that, like we just need,
you know, to work to the Yeah, we just need
to work so that the smaller guys can can work
and you can use five thousand miles of existing road

(58:32):
and all these second growth stands that need to be thinned.
We need to build our economy around that.

Speaker 5 (58:40):
The road pieces is super interesting, Like going back comparing
the lower forty eight to here, this is we're talking
about putting roads on islands or in bays, places that
have never had roads before, they've never had access to machinery,
and it's it just changes a place in a really

(59:01):
fundamental way. And so that's pretty fascinating. You can't really
go back from adding roads.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
To a place.

Speaker 6 (59:08):
It's just a different place.

Speaker 5 (59:10):
And the way we paid for these roads has been
large federal subsidies, which is super interesting as well. And
you know, it's I'm all for cutting federal waste and bloat,
and I think a good way to start with that
is to not subsidize logging operations. If these logging operations

(59:33):
are profitable and makes sense, I think, you know, the
the old economics need to line up. We shouldn't be
spending federal money to open these places up and not
retaining any of that profit in the region. I think
the last piece with roads that's really interesting is the
way they open up travel corridors to predators, and I

(59:55):
don't think that's talked about enough. And you know, blacktail
deer very acceptible to predation from bears and wolves, and
part of that's because we've created pathways for these animals
to cover a lot of ground quickly. Particularly wolves like
deer have their advantage over wolves in thick tangled country

(01:00:18):
like you saw that there, they slip through things that
are very hard to move through, and that's not terrain
that's is conducive for a wolf. But when you give
them a gravel pathway that they can get in their
super efficient trot and just cover ten grounds following a
cent trail, it's a huge advantage and I think that

(01:00:40):
really changes the predator prey balance.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
Yeah, that's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
You know, over the last couple of years, I've been
working on this book that's coming out next year and
been studying issues impacting fish and wildlife across America for
the last two hundred plus years, and what's funny is
that we see the same things happening over and over
and over again. A lot of these things happen in Europe,

(01:01:07):
and they happen on the East coast of America, and
then they started pushing the Royal West, and then we
saw them happening in the Rocky Mountain interior, and then
we saw them happening on the West coast. And we
continue to make the same mistakes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Over and over and over again.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
And all of those same mistakes have you know, scratched
the surface here and there in Alaska. But in many
ways we've maintained a pretty good stronghold there in your guys'
home state, but it's not immune to any of these
same risks and challenges and economic pressures and developmental pressures

(01:01:46):
and all that.

Speaker 6 (01:01:47):
Seems like.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
We still haven't figured it out.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
I still feel like the same things that we've seen
happen time and time and time and time and time
again are still being discussed as things that should happen
there in Alaska. And you would think, and you would
hope that in this last place we could maybe try
a different way. And it's it's shocking and disappointing how
few people seem to agree on that front, but uh,

(01:02:13):
we still have a hell of a thing. They're worth
worth caring for and stewarding. And I'm thankful that there's
people like you guys there now. They're just living there
and enjoying it, but also standing up for it too.
So uh, yeah, Alaska, I'm glad it's there. I hope
my kids will get to see it in just as
incredible shape as it is right now, because it's awfully

(01:02:35):
special for sure. What would what would you guys leave
folks with if you were to have a call to
action of any kind for people listening today, whether it's
you know, related to blacktails or any of the other
things we talked about today, what's uh, what's something you
want folks to do coming out of this conversation?

Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
Jorn? I mean, you know this is all you know,
public land, public wildlife, this is all. Call it our resources,
call it our heritage. You know, this is this is
all yours and ours unless yeah, man, pay attention. We

(01:03:14):
all got to make a living, but we don't have
to make a living in a way that you know,
kills what we love. So yeah, i'd say, you know,
if you haven't inn too Alaska. You come up here,
take a look, whatever you do, will you know, it's
be a great trip. But yeah, truly special place and yeah, man.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
Any thoughts in your front.

Speaker 5 (01:03:41):
Uh, not to get political, but I just encourage people
going into the midterms do your research on different you know,
don't you don't have to vote down party lines like
with just take the time. There's going to be resources
for hunters and anglers. You know, in your state, there's
going to be specific issues that different politicians are going

(01:04:04):
to have different stances on. And nationwide, I think we're
just looking at large the potential for large scale transfers
of land from the federal government to the state level,
and depending on the state, like if we have big
you know, there's potential two million acres of the Tongus
could get transferred to the state and the state will

(01:04:29):
manage that land very differently than the for Service has
And what that would look like would be aggressive clear
cutting without any of the kind of safeguards we see
with for Service clearcuts. So we've gone out to these
places and they cut right down to the beach, they
cut right down to the river.

Speaker 6 (01:04:49):
I mean it's like a bomb.

Speaker 5 (01:04:51):
Went off and we're just we're super nervous about that.
So I think just if people feel it's hard to
feel like anything matters politically right now, it just things
are blown up and it does matter though, And there's
we're we're going into time. We need to really really

(01:05:12):
decide what we want the future of our public lands
to be.

Speaker 6 (01:05:15):
And I think, you know, get informed before the midterms.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Yeah, yeah, And and let anyone who is seeking election
or reelection let them know that this stuff really matters
and that if they want your vote, they better get
right on this stuff. And and like you said, callen
transfer or sale of public lands. It's not gonna fly
with hunters and anglers, uh, you know, extraction without any

(01:05:42):
care for doing it in a balanced way that protects
wildlife habitats still in clean water and clean air. It's
not gonna fly with hunters and anglers doing There's there's
so many, so many examples. We gotta we got to
stand up for these things.

Speaker 5 (01:05:57):
A positive example is Montan hunters are outspoken and they're
amazing conservationists, and they've made it clear those political suicide
to give away public lands in Montana and the Montana
Danes and representatives senators there, they're some of the only
Republicans coming out against this stuff right now, and it

(01:06:19):
really really shows if you stand up, make it clear
this is just a lion in the sand. Well, we
still support you, but this is off the table like that,
this stuff makes a difference. It's really heartening to see
that across party lines, that stuff's not going to fly
in Montana.

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
Yep. Yeah, that's a really good point. Just to add
a little bit to that. You know, I've talked to
so many people over my lifetime that were like, a
trip to Alaska is the dream of their life. You know,
it's that's the dream trip, whether it's to hunt caribou,
whether it's to see a brown bear, whether or whatever.
And just you know, so you know, have your make
your voice known for Alaska's future too, because it is

(01:06:59):
it's the trip of a lifetime. You can't you can't
undermine how important this is for our here outdoor heritage,
for hunters and anglers. So it's you know, this is
the dream. Let's keep it that way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
So here here, Well on that front, gentlemen, I will
thank you again for your time here today, for the
time we spent last fall. It was It was a
hell of experience and I can't wait for the next one,
which which I think is gonna be happening here soon.

Speaker 3 (01:07:29):
So more on that to come.

Speaker 6 (01:07:31):
Thanks guys, looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
Thanks guys, all right, that is going to do it
for us today. Thanks for being with me this week.
I appreciate you checking out this film, tuning into this conversation,
and being a part of this community. So until next time,
stay wired to Hunt.