September 18, 2025 • 36 mins
Host Jodi Tovay sits down with Payne Lindsey (Up and Vanished) for a wide-open conversation about what it really took to bring this series to life. From the curveballs of reporting and the messy truths behind true crime storytelling, Jodi and Payne pull back the curtain and get real about the work, the weight, and the weird moments that come with investigating a case full of punchlines.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, Wisecrack, it's your host and producer Jody. What you're
about to hear is a conversation between myself and the
godfather of true crime POD's Pain, Lindsay Pain has been
a big champion of Wisecrack from the jump, so we're
discussing behind the scenes of the investigation, creator, producer, questions
and how ed and I recently took his show on
(00:23):
the road and performed at Crime Con in Denver. As always,
thank you for listening and enjoy this bonus episode.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Jody, It's good to see you again. We had a
blast and Crime Con and seeing the live show again
at stand up is always, I mean every time, I
feel like it's funnier and more intense. And also, congratulations
on becoming our first Tenderfoot number one comedy podcast, which
is wild to say because we're all true crime, but
(00:56):
this is a story that falls in multiple different genres
and I love it for that. But yeah, thanks for
letting me be here to talk to you about the show.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
No, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I know I just saw you in Denver and I'm
only partially recovered. I don't know about you, but it
was really exhilarating. You know, it was a crime conference
and people came to laugh, and I think they did
and they also got immersed in the story, So I
think it was a It was a pretty great show.
And I do think that you are more engaged and
nervous than either Ed or I saw you pacing backstage
(01:31):
and listening.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
You're so dialed in.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's funny because I almost I get like excited where
I'm like, it's it's like the like the little kid
inside me is like I picture myself on stage or something,
and I'm sort of, you know, living vicariously in the
moment through through Ed in like a weird excitement.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
But I mean it's fun. He's such a pro.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
You know, I aspire to do a stand up set
because that's so incredibly difficult, like I can't even imagine.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
But funny you picked up on that.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I think I could tell you that you're I can
tell you're a comedy fan as well, because you were
like with the timing as much.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I know, I know I'm supposed to answer some questions
for you, But what was your reaction the first time
that you heard the set? Because you heard it, I
guess probably four years ago for the first time.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Or five I mean, it's one of those things where
obviously I didn't know what to expect. He opens it
up very just kind of nonchalant, and you're like, who
is this guy? And he kind of already has this
sort of disarming, funny demeanor, which I really enjoyed and
kind of makes you sit back and feel comfortable laughing.
(02:50):
I just remember the way that he would pivot from
just this off the wall hilarious sort of joke into
the sort of serious elements of the story, and how
smooth that was and how it wasn't necessarily jarring. Was
it was kind of like all of the the comedy
(03:10):
part of his set and his character sort of prepared
you for the depth of what was to come, and
to me, it sort of made it a better human story.
And I really just was drawn to that part of it,
and from that moment forward in the set, I was
glued into the storytelling, and every time it got funny,
I was like, Oh, thank God, I can I can
(03:30):
breathe a little comic relief, right, We could all use
that with the dark content. But I want to ask
you a question actually, because people who haven't listened to
this yet, which if you if you know me, and
you haven't listened to it, I'm mad at you. But
when I was trying to describe this show to people,
(03:52):
it's I'm like, how do I do this?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
You know, like what do you say this is?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
And so I want to ask you what you're saying
it is just to the person has no clue what
you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It's so tough.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
I've been on this beat for almost nine years now
and I still struggle with the log line, right right.
I guess for people who are interested in true crime,
it's a to me, a near death experience that is
an eyewitness account of a double homicide wrapped in a
sixty minute stand up set and the investigation subsequent to
(04:30):
hearing that set. Yeah, I guess that's like, you know,
just varied, like you know, ten thousand foot view of
what it is.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I do think it's so much more, but that's that's
how I pitch it.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And then I think for people who are comedy fans
who are not necessarily in the crime genre, I just
think it's a wild ride. It's a very storytelling heavy,
kind of reminds me of like Tig Nataro, Mike Burbiglia,
Hannah Gadsby where they take, you know, really deep things
(05:00):
and still make them funny. And those two feelings of
laughing and tragedy are very close to each other, you know,
going up and going down.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I mean, my good friend Mike, who's a producer here
at Tenderfoot. You know, he's been with me for years
and you know we've investigated cold cases and you know
a lot of times you used to get deep into
the trenches of you know, like a tragedy for a
lack of a better word, and it can be really heavy.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
But we sort of have.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Developed over the years just internally our own sort of
gallows humor with things, just like to ourselves about our
own sort of experiences, and it's almost like a way
of processing and managing something really heavy. And I feel
like wisecrack embodies that. I think it's cathartic to see
(05:54):
Ed sort of live out loud the experience and like
is able to reflect on a stage from a point
of view that is kind of poking fun at himself
and making light of a situation for the idea of
how impactful and traumatic it actually was. And I think
(06:15):
that's powerful because I think we all do that to
a degree and it's it's a good thing to do
if you do it right.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You know, I think you nailed it. Like it.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I kind of wonder if cops, detectives, criminal litigators talk
and have that gallows humor as well privately, right, because
it's so it's just depressing to deal with every day.
And I don't know about you, but what I found
at least, like speaking to some of the official people
(06:43):
on the case, particularly those who were in Brett's trial,
they were very funny, I think, and I think that
that's how everybody copes, right, And I think the other
side of the coin is like you don't want to
I think when you try to talk about this story,
you don't want to to. You know, two people were
gruesomely murdered and then a third. It's really sad, it's upsetting,
(07:09):
and you know, having those two feelings of laughing and
horror to some degree, you know it can be offensive.
So I think like Ed does Bravo to Ed. I
think he does a great job interweaving those feelings. But
I kind of feel like, yeah, we all have that
secret vocabulary who work in some of the dark, dark arts.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I mean, tell me about the first time you ever
stumbled upon this set in the UK. I mean there
was a time when I was first played this and
I first saw it from ED, but by then this
was a conceptualized thing, right, So tell me the first
time you stumbled upon this and you're like, what is this?
I want to know more, Like, tell me about your experience.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
With the I was, I just quit my job, and.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
It's always a good start, you know exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
You know, my stock was down, I had left.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I quit my job, and it was making a lot
of like I was doing like UFO, conspiracy, bigfoot crime
shows for Discovery, and part of my job there was evaluating,
you know, what we should make. And you know, I
always tended to gravitate towards the funnier stories, like the
scammy crime stories, and I was always pitching those and
(08:25):
always told like, hey, that's not really what we do here.
You know, those emotions really don't live together. So when
I heard ED for the first time, I was like, Oh,
this kid, for lack of a better word, this kid
cracked it. Like those two feelings do live together, and
you can tell that story together.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So I was. I guess my feeling was I was vindicated.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
You know everything that you kind of always felt instinctually,
as at least as a creative person and a producer.
You're like, oh, it can exist, and he figured out
a way to tell it, you know, I was it
was felt amazing. And then the second question was, what
are the odds This guy goes back to his hometown
one night to perform a charity gig. The kid who
bullied him his whole life happens to be back in
(09:07):
their two childhood homes that are next door to each
other or around the corner from each other, and then
he shows up at his doorstep, like what are the odds?
So then it was suspicion. After that, I was like
I need you know what I mean, like, I need
to find out.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
It's a very wild tale.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Let's let's fact check this, you know, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I thought that was probably to you, it probably felt
like the dots connected, and you're like, this is what
I was trying to this is what I'm talking about,
Like this is the kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Right then you're like, okay, too good to be true.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I mean, so did you approach him afterwards or like,
how did that work when you first came to him?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Literally, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
The hardest part was first of all, getting him to
respond to me as.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
A universal as well.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Right, you know, it's hard to first of all approach
people who are subjects who've had traumatic things happen to them,
and then also someone who you know, adds a comedian
and works in entertain So I think, you know the
way that we kind of portray it, I think it's
at episode two where I'm chasing him around that is
two hundred percent accurate. I think we might have actually
cut even more times that he ghosted me and didn't
(10:12):
show up at a bar or coffee shop to talk.
So I think that was that was a big challenge.
But then the second piece was telling him that he
just told a true crime story. He just thought he
told a funny set that was deeply personal.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
That's also like a true crime documentary you just outlined
right there exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And then once that information was given and I think
we established a little bit of trust, that was when
I was like, Okay, now I got to get to
work fact checking. And I will say the first thing
that really struck me was that he you know, in
the set, you don't he doesn't really talk too much
about the crime. It's really about his perspective inside the
four walls of his house next to the crimes.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So Wisecrack is essentially a true crime story weaved within
the framework literally of a stand up comedy set. And
those two things, just by nature don't necessarily always go together,
which is why this is a unique project. So for
you as a producer and as you dug deeper into
(11:30):
the actual crime elements of this story and you know
the tragedy that the tragedy that happened, how did you
sort of create a balance of treating both stories with
care and you know, getting Ed's story across and just
his magnetic his magnetic style and way of talking about
(11:53):
this stuff with the sort of journalistic approach that you're
probably tiptoeing to make sure you're you're handling with care.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
What was that balance and how did you strike that exactly?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I think the the only way to do something like
this is to have some really good partners, you know that,
Like you've got a great team on up and vanished.
You know, my team was Charles Forbes. He was in
charge of narrative for the storytelling, and I was playing
journalist honestly, like and we kept each other in check
as we went, so I was kind of the record
(12:26):
keeper and fact checker and Charles was the one that
was beating out the story structure. And we did this
together because you're right, like you want to do service
to the wonderful story that Ed tells and how he
tells it, but then in the podcast, like you know,
it's our job to match that. So I think that
was the if we succeeded at all, it was because
(12:47):
we did it together, me and Chuck, and I think
that it's really been a threesome between me, Charles and
Ed this entire time. So if we if we struck
the balance, that's you know, you gotta gotta have good friends.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's very true, right, Yeah, tell me the true, don't
sugarcoat it. I mean, I feel like the stand up
set is already great, But if you're going to make
a podcast about this and you're going to dive deeper
into the crime that happened, and you're fact checking and
you're interviewing people, likely for the first time, it becomes
an entirely different beast. And so in a lot of ways,
(13:19):
you have to make sure you cross all your t's
and dot your eyes. Very well in that lane in
order to do service to both parts of this right
it would it could fall apart if this falls short
over here. So in a lot of ways, I would
imagine you almost had to go even harder in that
(13:40):
direction in terms of the journalistic part of this whole project.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Entirely, and also mean being an American, a nosy American,
and a small British down to go down great either.
So I think there was you know, I guess the
end of the day, it took a really long time
to make this, but I think it was mostly because
it took a long time for trust, to build trust
with all the subjects, to build trust with each other editorially,
(14:06):
to build trust like all that stuff. And I will
say this too, we failed so many times. I don't
I'm embarrassed to tell you how many cuts Steven and
Alex did on the tender foot side of things, because.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Again, like it, it is pretty new.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
There's no real roadmap for something like this, and so
but I think that everyone's willingness to just do it
over again and make changes like that was, if anything,
was the real reason for success. And then just again
keeping each other honest and making sure that because a
lot of time passes. It's very easy to forget. I
will be very frank with you. I'm working on a
bunch of other crime stories, as I know you are,
(14:40):
and so I think that was another piece of it,
was making sure that all the information and record keeping
was super organized. I have a murder binder, and it's
then I brought it to color I bring it everywhere, bring.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
It everywhere, the bus to the coffee shoper on it.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
It's it's pink, pink murderbinder.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay, I mean it kind of goes with the concept
of this show, you know, like, you know, give yourself
a little breathing room with this heavy content. Here Exactly
when he came to gaining trust, you know, I guess
from the journalism side of things and interviewing people and
even gaining the trust of ed, how did you go
(15:21):
about doing that? Was it more of a you know,
time is your best friend kind of thing, or was
it you know, persistence, like did you just hey, I
know you might be spooked about me now, but I'm
going to try again later, or I'm gonna show you something.
You know, For me, I always have found that if
I want somebody to be vulnerable on the mic about a.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
Very intense or sensitive story.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Then I have to be sort of willing to offer
the same and that just seems like a universally fair
exchange for you. What was that process like in terms
of gaining that trust and what does that mean for
you in this project?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I mean, I think that's a perfect thing.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
It's it's if you're asking someone to be honest with you,
you need to be honest with them first. So I
think starting in that place is always the best way.
And kind of felt like this was like the longest
like time I've ever dated all these people. It was
like dating like I just I just wore them down
over time. Every time they forgot about me, I popped
(16:26):
back up and said, like, oh, I've done some more.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Can I show you this? Can I get your reaction?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And being a consistent person in their life across you know,
at least for ed across like eight and a half years.
But at the same time, you know, I've also been
in his family's life that long too. Yeah, you know,
I've been texting his mom since then, And so I
think that, yeah, you're you're courting these people to some degree,
but in an incredibly trans as transparent as you can be.
(16:56):
That I think was the goal, and it seemed to have.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Worked quite well.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
What do you feel like has been the most rewarding
part of this? Now that you've completed this and it's
well received and it's a beautiful, amazing, very gripping podcasts
all around the board, what do you feel like has
been the most rewarding part of this?
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Thank you? That's really that means a lot coming from you.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Specific I mean, it's it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
It's definitely different, you know what. I honestly haven't had
a chance to let it think in. So now you're
asking me how do I feel about it?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
And like, well, we're like okay, Like or maybe it's
a rewarding moment throughout the process. Maybe it's not an
entire reflection of you know, I'm sure party still feels
like you're working on this.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So no, absolutely, I mean, you know how it is,
you never stop, like, there's always new leads, there's always
new people popping up the more that they hear your work. Yeah,
I guess it's the fact that it's a it's a grind,
it never ends. But I think the most rewarding moment
for me, again you can't take away the accolade that
you mentioned earlier. Number one true crime cast in comedy. Yeah,
(18:01):
I mean, I think that that really says it all,
like we crossed over genres and hopefully we're you know,
intriguing and entertaining two sets of audiences now. And that
was really that was really rewarding to hear.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
To me, it was cool because not in every true
crime podcast, especially do you get the opportunity to sort
of gauge an audience's reaction live. And so when he
was able to do the set at Crime Con to
a thousand plus people, that was really cool to see
(18:34):
people obviously laugh at the funny parts, but also be
super immersed in every facet of this story and really
kind of feel for all the people involved and kind
of had this real time emotional connection which you don't
always see as a podcaster. And so, I mean, what
(18:55):
was it like kind of I mean, I was obviously
pacing around super giddy back there, but I'm sure you
were like, Okay, all this has built to this moment
and you're seeing people really engage with it.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
It's crazy to get the live feedback like Ed gets
as a stand up because like you and I are.
I think we think about things a long time, we
pursue things a long time, and then people join in
the comments and tell us how we messed up, like
I think that to be able to hear the or
the oh my God, and then most of all the
questions like god. This when Ed performs, it elicits a
(19:31):
response from an audience I've personally never seen. I've been
to lots of stage shows before, and lots of comedy
and people in Atlanta You'll remember someone ran up on
stage in the middle of the set and hugged him
when he was literally mid sentenced. It elicits like and
other people. It also digs up so much trauma too,
from like all the other questions and answers that come up.
(19:54):
So it's very rewarding to hear, but also like it's
so interesting because I man, are we all going through it?
That's really what I've learned from that feedback is that
people they can relate to this. There's so many ways
to relate to this story, and everyone wants to tell
Ed now or me how they connect to it, whether
(20:14):
it be through an illness, whether it be through you know,
domestic violence, whether it be the and it's crazy. Honestly,
it's really crazy to see that as feedback so quickly.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, which I think is probably the coolest silver lining
of the genre acrossover here, which makes it the most
special is that it can resonate kind of on a
different level with any sort of struggle that you've experienced
and kind of find this common ground just kind of
seeing somebody else process this and go through that.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
There's so many different layers to it that you know.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's struggle, hardship, that's relatable across the board, right, and
so to kind of feel like seen in a way
as an audience is you know what I find so
unique about it, And that is one of the coolest
parts about making a podcast like this is that you
were able to connect with people in a different way.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
It's not just obviously it's a cool show.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It's it's fun, it's crazy, it's dark, but it's also
something that's uniquely human and that resonates.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
And I love that about it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I couldn't agree more. And you know, I think Ed
took a real risk. I mean, he put it all
on the line. He was the most human. He involved
his family, his mom, his dad. He laid it all
bare about their past transgressions and failings for each other,
his brothers like, and his neighbors and his tiny town
(21:45):
like I mean, I really right. It is the most
human of all human stories. And bullying being I think
a big theme too.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
God, I was bullied. I think we've all been bullied
to some degree. Hey, we're from the same what's up
with people from mayor yet being bullied?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Remember the bullies of the bus stop? You know, totally
that was They love to pick on me too, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah, it's very relatable for sure, very very human to
use your words.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I think, very very merry out of Georgia.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
No shade there. So this is a Wisecrack.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Is a six episode podcast, and I'm just going to
put this out there now.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I assume that if you're listening to this right now,
you've listened to the show, But if you haven't made
it very deep into the podcast yet, I would stop
now and finish it so I don't spoil anything for you,
because I want to kind of jump towards the end
of the series and pick your brain about a couple things.
So we were end the series with this cliffhanger. I'll
(22:51):
call it that the idea that you know, what if
Ed is lying right without too many spoilers or you know,
however you want to say it, like, let's talk about that,
because you mentioned that early on, like wanting to validate
some of this stuff, and that would always be a
fear right. And obviously an audience is going to react
(23:13):
like they're going to say, everyone's lying all the time
about everything does really matter?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
But what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, I honestly think that the one thing that we
were successful with is staying true to the journey Jody.
I'm talking about her in the third person, her emotional
journey as an investigator. Yeah, me, me, But that was
all accurate. I was very skeptical the whole time. Yeah,
and you'll hear eventually that I do have a pretty
deep and confrontation with Ed about some of my skepticism
(23:44):
and how I guess like we almost lost that chance
to have a transformation and for him to see this
a little bit differently. Again, no spoilers, but but you
know there's a moment that we scrap like and you'll
hear it, and that was all authentic, and that was
years of build up of me checking all the boxes
(24:06):
in one column and then saying, but there's this question here,
so and so said this, and so I certainly think
that that, again, all of that was very accurate to
the journey of trying to uncover and trust.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
It was like again, it was like it was like dating.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I can't come up with a better analogy. It was
just about there's there's a certain level of trust that
was that is required in the end to like really
see through this journey. And I hope that that's ie
that's something that people enjoy too, because you know, at
the end of the day, it's not a who done it?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
We know who done it?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You know, after episode two, you know there's no who
and then we learned about the what.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
It's really a wide journey.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, And if you're into, like I guess, the psychology
and push and pull of investigator against subject who happens
to also be a very entertaining professional comedian, like this
is definitely something that I think will be very interesting
in the final episodes.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I mean, I could imagine that after several years of
playing investigative journalists, being an investigative journalist and being.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
On the ground and doing all the real work and.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Research and making the connections, interviewing people. You have put
a lot of time, energy, emotion, thought into this and
if there's a moment that it culminates into this feeling
that you've been tricked or conned, you know, that would
probably feel pretty bad. And at the same time, if
(25:43):
you're challenging ed and he's like, I'm telling the truth,
that probably equally feels not good. So what was that
sort of like culminating moment, God or one of them?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I guess, yeah, no, No, I mean I'm thinking very
specifically of a confrontation that you'll hear, and I think
it's presently and I think it's.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
An episode five right now.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And yeah, I again, I think there was a lot
of mistrust that had built up that needed to be addressed.
But ultimately, you know, I think we just assumed so
much bad stuff about each other, him, me, me of him, us,
of strangers on the internet, et cetera. And in the
end it, you know, thankfully, it was a journey that
(26:28):
was worth taking for me and and also for him.
But there was at one point I was like, oh
my god, I've spent all this time.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
What if it's kind of massive please no, please know.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And then I was like, I guess that's still a story,
but but maybe not worth telling. And you know, so, yeah,
is that part where you're you know, as a host
and investigator, your buttet drops out and you're like, oh
my god, what have I done?
Speaker 3 (26:54):
And you will hear that there's a big piece of that.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
And yeah, and that's that's very real.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I mean, it is hard to trust people you know
that you don't know or even know sometimes and you know,
part of that trust on your end even is kind
of taking a little bit of a leap of faith
because you know you're not going to definitively know right away,
(27:18):
maybe for a long time until you get to a
certain point, and.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
That that is a risk that we all have to take.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
In getting closer to anybody or anything right exactly. So, yeah,
we don't want to sit here and never learn anything new,
but we also don't want to walk around being you know,
clueless and taken advantage of in a place where that
happens in the world, you.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Know, totally, it's a fine line from being thinking critically
and you know, you just don't want to feel naive.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
You don't want to feel like a fool.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
And sometimes I think that we take that critical thinking skill,
especially someone who thinks I think in like a doomsday
scenario from it right, and.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Really, yeah, it could spiral. It really can.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And it's also like you know, checking yourself in the
work and saying, Okay, here's what we know, here's what
we don't know, here's what I need to ask, here's
where I need to go. I need to now not
talk to this person and exclusively understand this perspective. So
hopefully we you know, we did that.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Decently, I think. So do you believe ed now?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I'd lose no sleep over it.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
No, seriously, I you know, you look back at it
and like you hear some of the conversations we have
and we're like, oh, that was really harsh, Tove like
that wasn't nice. But but no, there's no there's no
question in my mind, and I you know, it's really
now that I look back on it. I think there's
some cultural differences too. I was talking to some of
(28:46):
my British friends and say, talking about the story, and
they were like, oh, yeah, people from Essex, they don't
they don't talk about their feelings and they certainly don't
talk about anything that's happening in the town or their lives.
It's very you know, the currency is saying there and just.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Living your life privately.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So to force an entire town of people to do
the thing that is so deeply unnatural on things that
they just haven't done for centuries, I get it.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
That was a big piece of that too.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
So I do look back on that and think, you know,
there's that stiff upper lip that I was fighting against
as well. But that doesn't necessarily mean people are liars.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
There are a lot of victims in this story, the murders,
for one, and I feel like as a whole, just
the impact as you dissect it, it is very expansive,
just sort of all the different intricate ways this impacted
all different kinds of people in this town, family, even
(29:48):
down to listeners across the ocean and feeling it in
a brand new way. What have you found in terms
of just the impact this entire event and what's transpired
afterwards has had on the community ed maybe even yourself.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, I think I'm still waiting to hear back from
the community, but I can speak. I certainly can speak
for myself and say this whole experience and learning about
this particular case. I we don't talk about any official
medical diagnosis because the killer that we talk about in
(30:31):
the story never officially had one. But mental health is
the one thing that I keep that I've learned and
I've taken with me.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I think that so.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
It's so complicated, especially in a socialized medical system like
the UK. All these agencies are working together, but also
have their own goals, right they need to close cases,
they have boxes to check, and sometimes I can do
a uh huh, and sometimes I can do a big
disservice to people too. Sometimes it's a tremendously helpful, But
I don't know if in this case that was the situation.
(31:05):
To be really frank with you, and it wasn't that
anyone was not doing their job. But you've got to
figure out a way for all the agencies to talk
to each other, if that makes any sense. And you know,
I really look at Brett's father, Pete, who we will
meet in future episodes, as the real winner here. You
(31:29):
expect one thing to come out of that conversation, and
it's completely the opposite. And I think that one of
the things that he was very successful with was managing
his learning how to manage his feelings and processing things
because he experienced it the worst. So I think that
he really comes out So I find him very inspirational
(31:52):
in general. That's the one thing I take with me.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
So what do you take from that?
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Like you're seeing somebody kind of overcome something and handle
something extremely difficult, and wow, that's admirable, I would assume
right like very much.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
He did he did the work like that's that's the answer.
He spent a lot of time having uncomfortable conversations with
professionals until he was able to come out on the
other side, and that took years, and but that was
something And again, I don't think that's something that naturally,
you know, you know, a sixty year old person in
general would be was taught to do or be willing
(32:25):
to do. And I think that's really impressive on his part.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
You mentioned earlier how special it was people coming up
to you all after the show, and I'm sure you
get emails and stuff like that, just different listeners connecting
in various ways to this story. I guess who do
you hope this podcast reaches? What do you what do
you hope people gain through this? As a listener.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
Ideally, M that's such a good question.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I think that I do think that this is not
a true crime one on one story, if that makes
any sense, because it's much more of a Towards the
end we really get into I think we're about to
dovetail into these episodes where it becomes such a character
study of personality and how one reacts to things, if
that makes any sense, traumatic things. So I definitely think
(33:17):
that if you're somebody who is maybe not even interested
in true crime or comedy, if you're interested in I think,
just generally how humans respond to crazy things. Yeah, we're
about to We're about to take you there, for sure.
So I do I think that that that's what makes
it certainly universally rewarding as an endpoint for sure in
the story.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
And I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I just I hope that we do justice to the victims. Obviously,
that's the number one thing to me. I think that
this story got really swept under the rug in the
UK for whatever reason. Who knows why things happen the
way they do, and you know, in the news media,
But but I really think that it's important to honor
them specifically. It really turned into the Brett Show at
(34:02):
some point because he was such a mysterious type of murderer. Sure, yeah,
and the crime itself was very confusing, but you know
Gillian Phillips, David Oaks, and then ultimately you know other
people too that are involved in this. But like, I
really that's that's that's the one thing. Honestly, their memory
(34:23):
acknowledging it happened, I think is the most important thing.
And then I think, you know, also, you're gonna feel
a lot of feelings and I hope and I hope
they make you think.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah, right, I love that. Well, Jody, this has been
amazing you and the rest of the team. Charles ed himself,
the rest of the Tenderfoot team, super.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Proud of all you all you guys. It's truly a
one of a kind.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I think you put together a blueprint for a new
kind of true crime show that has really resonated with
listeners and myself and is extremely special and I think
a positive impact on a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
So great job that.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
And I mean, like again, I don't think that anybody
the part of this journey was just like pitching the
story around and seeing who would want to tell it,
and the fact that you and Donald said yes, let's
tryin let's go. Yeah, I mean, like, thank you for
being on the crazy train. I think that's a big
part part of taking the risk is finding somebody who
(35:31):
who knows the genre but is also willing to take
risks and push stories. So again, we wouldn't We would
not be here if it weren't for you guys, And
I know that Ed, Charles and myself are so appreciative.
So thank you guys so much, and I hope everyone
enjoys it.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Well, thank you so much. This has been awesome.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Uh, if you haven't listened to the podcast yet, I
don't know why you're here, so definitely gonna listen to
it now or re listen to it. But Jody, this
has been amazing. Charles, excellent job, Ed, you're the man. Yeah,
Wisecrack is an amazing body of work. And I might
just go binge it again myself because every time I
find a new Easter Egg in there, So please do give.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Me another download.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
I will
Hey, Wisecrack, it's your host and producer Jody. What you're
about to hear is a conversation between myself and the
godfather of true crime POD's Pain, Lindsay Pain has been
a big champion of Wisecrack from the jump, so we're
discussing behind the scenes of the investigation, creator, producer, questions
and how ed and I recently took his show on
(00:23):
the road and performed at Crime Con in Denver. As always,
thank you for listening and enjoy this bonus episode.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Jody, It's good to see you again. We had a
blast and Crime Con and seeing the live show again
at stand up is always, I mean every time, I
feel like it's funnier and more intense. And also, congratulations
on becoming our first Tenderfoot number one comedy podcast, which
is wild to say because we're all true crime, but
(00:56):
this is a story that falls in multiple different genres
and I love it for that. But yeah, thanks for
letting me be here to talk to you about the show.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
No, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I know I just saw you in Denver and I'm
only partially recovered. I don't know about you, but it
was really exhilarating. You know, it was a crime conference
and people came to laugh, and I think they did
and they also got immersed in the story, So I
think it was a It was a pretty great show.
And I do think that you are more engaged and
nervous than either Ed or I saw you pacing backstage
(01:31):
and listening.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
You're so dialed in.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's funny because I almost I get like excited where
I'm like, it's it's like the like the little kid
inside me is like I picture myself on stage or something,
and I'm sort of, you know, living vicariously in the
moment through through Ed in like a weird excitement.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
But I mean it's fun. He's such a pro.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
You know, I aspire to do a stand up set
because that's so incredibly difficult, like I can't even imagine.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
But funny you picked up on that.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I think I could tell you that you're I can
tell you're a comedy fan as well, because you were
like with the timing as much.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I know, I know I'm supposed to answer some questions
for you, But what was your reaction the first time
that you heard the set? Because you heard it, I
guess probably four years ago for the first time.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Or five I mean, it's one of those things where
obviously I didn't know what to expect. He opens it
up very just kind of nonchalant, and you're like, who
is this guy? And he kind of already has this
sort of disarming, funny demeanor, which I really enjoyed and
kind of makes you sit back and feel comfortable laughing.
(02:50):
I just remember the way that he would pivot from
just this off the wall hilarious sort of joke into
the sort of serious elements of the story, and how
smooth that was and how it wasn't necessarily jarring. Was
it was kind of like all of the the comedy
(03:10):
part of his set and his character sort of prepared
you for the depth of what was to come, and
to me, it sort of made it a better human story.
And I really just was drawn to that part of it,
and from that moment forward in the set, I was
glued into the storytelling, and every time it got funny,
I was like, Oh, thank God, I can I can
(03:30):
breathe a little comic relief, right, We could all use
that with the dark content. But I want to ask
you a question actually, because people who haven't listened to
this yet, which if you if you know me, and
you haven't listened to it, I'm mad at you. But
when I was trying to describe this show to people,
(03:52):
it's I'm like, how do I do this?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
You know, like what do you say this is?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
And so I want to ask you what you're saying
it is just to the person has no clue what
you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It's so tough.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
I've been on this beat for almost nine years now
and I still struggle with the log line, right right.
I guess for people who are interested in true crime,
it's a to me, a near death experience that is
an eyewitness account of a double homicide wrapped in a
sixty minute stand up set and the investigation subsequent to
(04:30):
hearing that set. Yeah, I guess that's like, you know,
just varied, like you know, ten thousand foot view of
what it is.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I do think it's so much more, but that's that's
how I pitch it.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And then I think for people who are comedy fans
who are not necessarily in the crime genre, I just
think it's a wild ride. It's a very storytelling heavy,
kind of reminds me of like Tig Nataro, Mike Burbiglia,
Hannah Gadsby where they take, you know, really deep things
(05:00):
and still make them funny. And those two feelings of
laughing and tragedy are very close to each other, you know,
going up and going down.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I mean, my good friend Mike, who's a producer here
at Tenderfoot. You know, he's been with me for years
and you know we've investigated cold cases and you know
a lot of times you used to get deep into
the trenches of you know, like a tragedy for a
lack of a better word, and it can be really heavy.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
But we sort of have.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Developed over the years just internally our own sort of
gallows humor with things, just like to ourselves about our
own sort of experiences, and it's almost like a way
of processing and managing something really heavy. And I feel
like wisecrack embodies that. I think it's cathartic to see
(05:54):
Ed sort of live out loud the experience and like
is able to reflect on a stage from a point
of view that is kind of poking fun at himself
and making light of a situation for the idea of
how impactful and traumatic it actually was. And I think
(06:15):
that's powerful because I think we all do that to
a degree and it's it's a good thing to do
if you do it right.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You know, I think you nailed it. Like it.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I kind of wonder if cops, detectives, criminal litigators talk
and have that gallows humor as well privately, right, because
it's so it's just depressing to deal with every day.
And I don't know about you, but what I found
at least, like speaking to some of the official people
(06:43):
on the case, particularly those who were in Brett's trial,
they were very funny, I think, and I think that
that's how everybody copes, right, And I think the other
side of the coin is like you don't want to
I think when you try to talk about this story,
you don't want to to. You know, two people were
gruesomely murdered and then a third. It's really sad, it's upsetting,
(07:09):
and you know, having those two feelings of laughing and
horror to some degree, you know it can be offensive.
So I think like Ed does Bravo to Ed. I
think he does a great job interweaving those feelings. But
I kind of feel like, yeah, we all have that
secret vocabulary who work in some of the dark, dark arts.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I mean, tell me about the first time you ever
stumbled upon this set in the UK. I mean there
was a time when I was first played this and
I first saw it from ED, but by then this
was a conceptualized thing, right, So tell me the first
time you stumbled upon this and you're like, what is this?
I want to know more, Like, tell me about your experience.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
With the I was, I just quit my job, and.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
It's always a good start, you know exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
You know, my stock was down, I had left.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I quit my job, and it was making a lot
of like I was doing like UFO, conspiracy, bigfoot crime
shows for Discovery, and part of my job there was evaluating,
you know, what we should make. And you know, I
always tended to gravitate towards the funnier stories, like the
scammy crime stories, and I was always pitching those and
(08:25):
always told like, hey, that's not really what we do here.
You know, those emotions really don't live together. So when
I heard ED for the first time, I was like, Oh,
this kid, for lack of a better word, this kid
cracked it. Like those two feelings do live together, and
you can tell that story together.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So I was. I guess my feeling was I was vindicated.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
You know everything that you kind of always felt instinctually,
as at least as a creative person and a producer.
You're like, oh, it can exist, and he figured out
a way to tell it, you know, I was it
was felt amazing. And then the second question was, what
are the odds This guy goes back to his hometown
one night to perform a charity gig. The kid who
bullied him his whole life happens to be back in
(09:07):
their two childhood homes that are next door to each
other or around the corner from each other, and then
he shows up at his doorstep, like what are the odds?
So then it was suspicion. After that, I was like
I need you know what I mean, like, I need
to find out.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
It's a very wild tale.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Let's let's fact check this, you know, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I thought that was probably to you, it probably felt
like the dots connected, and you're like, this is what
I was trying to this is what I'm talking about,
Like this is the kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Right then you're like, okay, too good to be true.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I mean, so did you approach him afterwards or like,
how did that work when you first came to him?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Literally, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
The hardest part was first of all, getting him to
respond to me as.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
A universal as well.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Right, you know, it's hard to first of all approach
people who are subjects who've had traumatic things happen to them,
and then also someone who you know, adds a comedian
and works in entertain So I think, you know the
way that we kind of portray it, I think it's
at episode two where I'm chasing him around that is
two hundred percent accurate. I think we might have actually
cut even more times that he ghosted me and didn't
(10:12):
show up at a bar or coffee shop to talk.
So I think that was that was a big challenge.
But then the second piece was telling him that he
just told a true crime story. He just thought he
told a funny set that was deeply personal.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
That's also like a true crime documentary you just outlined
right there exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And then once that information was given and I think
we established a little bit of trust, that was when
I was like, Okay, now I got to get to
work fact checking. And I will say the first thing
that really struck me was that he you know, in
the set, you don't he doesn't really talk too much
about the crime. It's really about his perspective inside the
four walls of his house next to the crimes.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So Wisecrack is essentially a true crime story weaved within
the framework literally of a stand up comedy set. And
those two things, just by nature don't necessarily always go together,
which is why this is a unique project. So for
you as a producer and as you dug deeper into
(11:30):
the actual crime elements of this story and you know
the tragedy that the tragedy that happened, how did you
sort of create a balance of treating both stories with
care and you know, getting Ed's story across and just
his magnetic his magnetic style and way of talking about
(11:53):
this stuff with the sort of journalistic approach that you're
probably tiptoeing to make sure you're you're handling with care.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
What was that balance and how did you strike that exactly?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I think the the only way to do something like
this is to have some really good partners, you know that,
Like you've got a great team on up and vanished.
You know, my team was Charles Forbes. He was in
charge of narrative for the storytelling, and I was playing
journalist honestly, like and we kept each other in check
as we went, so I was kind of the record
(12:26):
keeper and fact checker and Charles was the one that
was beating out the story structure. And we did this
together because you're right, like you want to do service
to the wonderful story that Ed tells and how he
tells it, but then in the podcast, like you know,
it's our job to match that. So I think that
was the if we succeeded at all, it was because
(12:47):
we did it together, me and Chuck, and I think
that it's really been a threesome between me, Charles and
Ed this entire time. So if we if we struck
the balance, that's you know, you gotta gotta have good friends.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's very true, right, Yeah, tell me the true, don't
sugarcoat it. I mean, I feel like the stand up
set is already great, But if you're going to make
a podcast about this and you're going to dive deeper
into the crime that happened, and you're fact checking and
you're interviewing people, likely for the first time, it becomes
an entirely different beast. And so in a lot of ways,
(13:19):
you have to make sure you cross all your t's
and dot your eyes. Very well in that lane in
order to do service to both parts of this right
it would it could fall apart if this falls short
over here. So in a lot of ways, I would
imagine you almost had to go even harder in that
(13:40):
direction in terms of the journalistic part of this whole project.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Entirely, and also mean being an American, a nosy American,
and a small British down to go down great either.
So I think there was you know, I guess the
end of the day, it took a really long time
to make this, but I think it was mostly because
it took a long time for trust, to build trust
with all the subjects, to build trust with each other editorially,
(14:06):
to build trust like all that stuff. And I will
say this too, we failed so many times. I don't
I'm embarrassed to tell you how many cuts Steven and
Alex did on the tender foot side of things, because.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Again, like it, it is pretty new.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
There's no real roadmap for something like this, and so
but I think that everyone's willingness to just do it
over again and make changes like that was, if anything,
was the real reason for success. And then just again
keeping each other honest and making sure that because a
lot of time passes. It's very easy to forget. I
will be very frank with you. I'm working on a
bunch of other crime stories, as I know you are,
(14:40):
and so I think that was another piece of it,
was making sure that all the information and record keeping
was super organized. I have a murder binder, and it's
then I brought it to color I bring it everywhere, bring.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
It everywhere, the bus to the coffee shoper on it.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
It's it's pink, pink murderbinder.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay, I mean it kind of goes with the concept
of this show, you know, like, you know, give yourself
a little breathing room with this heavy content. Here Exactly
when he came to gaining trust, you know, I guess
from the journalism side of things and interviewing people and
even gaining the trust of ed, how did you go
(15:21):
about doing that? Was it more of a you know,
time is your best friend kind of thing, or was
it you know, persistence, like did you just hey, I
know you might be spooked about me now, but I'm
going to try again later, or I'm gonna show you something.
You know, For me, I always have found that if
I want somebody to be vulnerable on the mic about a.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
Very intense or sensitive story.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Then I have to be sort of willing to offer
the same and that just seems like a universally fair
exchange for you. What was that process like in terms
of gaining that trust and what does that mean for
you in this project?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I mean, I think that's a perfect thing.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
It's it's if you're asking someone to be honest with you,
you need to be honest with them first. So I
think starting in that place is always the best way.
And kind of felt like this was like the longest
like time I've ever dated all these people. It was
like dating like I just I just wore them down
over time. Every time they forgot about me, I popped
(16:26):
back up and said, like, oh, I've done some more.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Can I show you this? Can I get your reaction?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And being a consistent person in their life across you know,
at least for ed across like eight and a half years.
But at the same time, you know, I've also been
in his family's life that long too. Yeah, you know,
I've been texting his mom since then, And so I
think that, yeah, you're you're courting these people to some degree,
but in an incredibly trans as transparent as you can be.
(16:56):
That I think was the goal, and it seemed to have.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Worked quite well.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
What do you feel like has been the most rewarding
part of this? Now that you've completed this and it's
well received and it's a beautiful, amazing, very gripping podcasts
all around the board, what do you feel like has
been the most rewarding part of this?
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Thank you? That's really that means a lot coming from you.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Specific I mean, it's it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
It's definitely different, you know what. I honestly haven't had
a chance to let it think in. So now you're
asking me how do I feel about it?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
And like, well, we're like okay, Like or maybe it's
a rewarding moment throughout the process. Maybe it's not an
entire reflection of you know, I'm sure party still feels
like you're working on this.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So no, absolutely, I mean, you know how it is,
you never stop, like, there's always new leads, there's always
new people popping up the more that they hear your work. Yeah,
I guess it's the fact that it's a it's a grind,
it never ends. But I think the most rewarding moment
for me, again you can't take away the accolade that
you mentioned earlier. Number one true crime cast in comedy. Yeah,
(18:01):
I mean, I think that that really says it all,
like we crossed over genres and hopefully we're you know,
intriguing and entertaining two sets of audiences now. And that
was really that was really rewarding to hear.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
To me, it was cool because not in every true
crime podcast, especially do you get the opportunity to sort
of gauge an audience's reaction live. And so when he
was able to do the set at Crime Con to
a thousand plus people, that was really cool to see
(18:34):
people obviously laugh at the funny parts, but also be
super immersed in every facet of this story and really
kind of feel for all the people involved and kind
of had this real time emotional connection which you don't
always see as a podcaster. And so, I mean, what
(18:55):
was it like kind of I mean, I was obviously
pacing around super giddy back there, but I'm sure you
were like, Okay, all this has built to this moment
and you're seeing people really engage with it.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
It's crazy to get the live feedback like Ed gets
as a stand up because like you and I are.
I think we think about things a long time, we
pursue things a long time, and then people join in
the comments and tell us how we messed up, like
I think that to be able to hear the or
the oh my God, and then most of all the
questions like god. This when Ed performs, it elicits a
(19:31):
response from an audience I've personally never seen. I've been
to lots of stage shows before, and lots of comedy
and people in Atlanta You'll remember someone ran up on
stage in the middle of the set and hugged him
when he was literally mid sentenced. It elicits like and
other people. It also digs up so much trauma too,
from like all the other questions and answers that come up.
(19:54):
So it's very rewarding to hear, but also like it's
so interesting because I man, are we all going through it?
That's really what I've learned from that feedback is that
people they can relate to this. There's so many ways
to relate to this story, and everyone wants to tell
Ed now or me how they connect to it, whether
(20:14):
it be through an illness, whether it be through you know,
domestic violence, whether it be the and it's crazy. Honestly,
it's really crazy to see that as feedback so quickly.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, which I think is probably the coolest silver lining
of the genre acrossover here, which makes it the most
special is that it can resonate kind of on a
different level with any sort of struggle that you've experienced
and kind of find this common ground just kind of
seeing somebody else process this and go through that.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
There's so many different layers to it that you know.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's struggle, hardship, that's relatable across the board, right, and
so to kind of feel like seen in a way
as an audience is you know what I find so
unique about it, And that is one of the coolest
parts about making a podcast like this is that you
were able to connect with people in a different way.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
It's not just obviously it's a cool show.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It's it's fun, it's crazy, it's dark, but it's also
something that's uniquely human and that resonates.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
And I love that about it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I couldn't agree more. And you know, I think Ed
took a real risk. I mean, he put it all
on the line. He was the most human. He involved
his family, his mom, his dad. He laid it all
bare about their past transgressions and failings for each other,
his brothers like, and his neighbors and his tiny town
(21:45):
like I mean, I really right. It is the most
human of all human stories. And bullying being I think
a big theme too.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
God, I was bullied. I think we've all been bullied
to some degree. Hey, we're from the same what's up
with people from mayor yet being bullied?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Remember the bullies of the bus stop? You know, totally
that was They love to pick on me too, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah, it's very relatable for sure, very very human to
use your words.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I think, very very merry out of Georgia.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
No shade there. So this is a Wisecrack.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Is a six episode podcast, and I'm just going to
put this out there now.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I assume that if you're listening to this right now,
you've listened to the show, But if you haven't made
it very deep into the podcast yet, I would stop
now and finish it so I don't spoil anything for you,
because I want to kind of jump towards the end
of the series and pick your brain about a couple things.
So we were end the series with this cliffhanger. I'll
(22:51):
call it that the idea that you know, what if
Ed is lying right without too many spoilers or you know,
however you want to say it, like, let's talk about that,
because you mentioned that early on, like wanting to validate
some of this stuff, and that would always be a
fear right. And obviously an audience is going to react
(23:13):
like they're going to say, everyone's lying all the time
about everything does really matter?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
But what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, I honestly think that the one thing that we
were successful with is staying true to the journey Jody.
I'm talking about her in the third person, her emotional
journey as an investigator. Yeah, me, me, But that was
all accurate. I was very skeptical the whole time. Yeah,
and you'll hear eventually that I do have a pretty
deep and confrontation with Ed about some of my skepticism
(23:44):
and how I guess like we almost lost that chance
to have a transformation and for him to see this
a little bit differently. Again, no spoilers, but but you
know there's a moment that we scrap like and you'll
hear it, and that was all authentic, and that was
years of build up of me checking all the boxes
(24:06):
in one column and then saying, but there's this question here,
so and so said this, and so I certainly think
that that, again, all of that was very accurate to
the journey of trying to uncover and trust.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
It was like again, it was like it was like dating.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I can't come up with a better analogy. It was
just about there's there's a certain level of trust that
was that is required in the end to like really
see through this journey. And I hope that that's ie
that's something that people enjoy too, because you know, at
the end of the day, it's not a who done it?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
We know who done it?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You know, after episode two, you know there's no who
and then we learned about the what.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
It's really a wide journey.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, And if you're into, like I guess, the psychology
and push and pull of investigator against subject who happens
to also be a very entertaining professional comedian, like this
is definitely something that I think will be very interesting
in the final episodes.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I mean, I could imagine that after several years of
playing investigative journalists, being an investigative journalist and being.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
On the ground and doing all the real work and.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Research and making the connections, interviewing people. You have put
a lot of time, energy, emotion, thought into this and
if there's a moment that it culminates into this feeling
that you've been tricked or conned, you know, that would
probably feel pretty bad. And at the same time, if
(25:43):
you're challenging ed and he's like, I'm telling the truth,
that probably equally feels not good. So what was that
sort of like culminating moment, God or one of them?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I guess, yeah, no, No, I mean I'm thinking very
specifically of a confrontation that you'll hear, and I think
it's presently and I think it's.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
An episode five right now.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And yeah, I again, I think there was a lot
of mistrust that had built up that needed to be addressed.
But ultimately, you know, I think we just assumed so
much bad stuff about each other, him, me, me of him, us,
of strangers on the internet, et cetera. And in the
end it, you know, thankfully, it was a journey that
(26:28):
was worth taking for me and and also for him.
But there was at one point I was like, oh
my god, I've spent all this time.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
What if it's kind of massive please no, please know.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And then I was like, I guess that's still a story,
but but maybe not worth telling. And you know, so, yeah,
is that part where you're you know, as a host
and investigator, your buttet drops out and you're like, oh
my god, what have I done?
Speaker 3 (26:54):
And you will hear that there's a big piece of that.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
And yeah, and that's that's very real.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I mean, it is hard to trust people you know
that you don't know or even know sometimes and you know,
part of that trust on your end even is kind
of taking a little bit of a leap of faith
because you know you're not going to definitively know right away,
(27:18):
maybe for a long time until you get to a
certain point, and.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
That that is a risk that we all have to take.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
In getting closer to anybody or anything right exactly. So, yeah,
we don't want to sit here and never learn anything new,
but we also don't want to walk around being you know,
clueless and taken advantage of in a place where that
happens in the world, you.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Know, totally, it's a fine line from being thinking critically
and you know, you just don't want to feel naive.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
You don't want to feel like a fool.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
And sometimes I think that we take that critical thinking skill,
especially someone who thinks I think in like a doomsday
scenario from it right, and.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Really, yeah, it could spiral. It really can.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And it's also like you know, checking yourself in the
work and saying, Okay, here's what we know, here's what
we don't know, here's what I need to ask, here's
where I need to go. I need to now not
talk to this person and exclusively understand this perspective. So
hopefully we you know, we did that.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Decently, I think. So do you believe ed now?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I'd lose no sleep over it.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
No, seriously, I you know, you look back at it
and like you hear some of the conversations we have
and we're like, oh, that was really harsh, Tove like
that wasn't nice. But but no, there's no there's no
question in my mind, and I you know, it's really
now that I look back on it. I think there's
some cultural differences too. I was talking to some of
(28:46):
my British friends and say, talking about the story, and
they were like, oh, yeah, people from Essex, they don't
they don't talk about their feelings and they certainly don't
talk about anything that's happening in the town or their lives.
It's very you know, the currency is saying there and just.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Living your life privately.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So to force an entire town of people to do
the thing that is so deeply unnatural on things that
they just haven't done for centuries, I get it.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
That was a big piece of that too.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
So I do look back on that and think, you know,
there's that stiff upper lip that I was fighting against
as well. But that doesn't necessarily mean people are liars.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
There are a lot of victims in this story, the murders,
for one, and I feel like as a whole, just
the impact as you dissect it, it is very expansive,
just sort of all the different intricate ways this impacted
all different kinds of people in this town, family, even
(29:48):
down to listeners across the ocean and feeling it in
a brand new way. What have you found in terms
of just the impact this entire event and what's transpired
afterwards has had on the community ed maybe even yourself.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, I think I'm still waiting to hear back from
the community, but I can speak. I certainly can speak
for myself and say this whole experience and learning about
this particular case. I we don't talk about any official
medical diagnosis because the killer that we talk about in
(30:31):
the story never officially had one. But mental health is
the one thing that I keep that I've learned and
I've taken with me.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I think that so.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
It's so complicated, especially in a socialized medical system like
the UK. All these agencies are working together, but also
have their own goals, right they need to close cases,
they have boxes to check, and sometimes I can do
a uh huh, and sometimes I can do a big
disservice to people too. Sometimes it's a tremendously helpful, But
I don't know if in this case that was the situation.
(31:05):
To be really frank with you, and it wasn't that
anyone was not doing their job. But you've got to
figure out a way for all the agencies to talk
to each other, if that makes any sense. And you know,
I really look at Brett's father, Pete, who we will
meet in future episodes, as the real winner here. You
(31:29):
expect one thing to come out of that conversation, and
it's completely the opposite. And I think that one of
the things that he was very successful with was managing
his learning how to manage his feelings and processing things
because he experienced it the worst. So I think that
he really comes out So I find him very inspirational
(31:52):
in general. That's the one thing I take with me.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
So what do you take from that?
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Like you're seeing somebody kind of overcome something and handle
something extremely difficult, and wow, that's admirable, I would assume
right like very much.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
He did he did the work like that's that's the answer.
He spent a lot of time having uncomfortable conversations with
professionals until he was able to come out on the
other side, and that took years, and but that was
something And again, I don't think that's something that naturally,
you know, you know, a sixty year old person in
general would be was taught to do or be willing
(32:25):
to do. And I think that's really impressive on his part.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
You mentioned earlier how special it was people coming up
to you all after the show, and I'm sure you
get emails and stuff like that, just different listeners connecting
in various ways to this story. I guess who do
you hope this podcast reaches? What do you what do
you hope people gain through this? As a listener.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
Ideally, M that's such a good question.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I think that I do think that this is not
a true crime one on one story, if that makes
any sense, because it's much more of a Towards the
end we really get into I think we're about to
dovetail into these episodes where it becomes such a character
study of personality and how one reacts to things, if
that makes any sense, traumatic things. So I definitely think
(33:17):
that if you're somebody who is maybe not even interested
in true crime or comedy, if you're interested in I think,
just generally how humans respond to crazy things. Yeah, we're
about to We're about to take you there, for sure.
So I do I think that that that's what makes
it certainly universally rewarding as an endpoint for sure in
the story.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
And I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I just I hope that we do justice to the victims. Obviously,
that's the number one thing to me. I think that
this story got really swept under the rug in the
UK for whatever reason. Who knows why things happen the
way they do, and you know, in the news media,
But but I really think that it's important to honor
them specifically. It really turned into the Brett Show at
(34:02):
some point because he was such a mysterious type of murderer. Sure, yeah,
and the crime itself was very confusing, but you know
Gillian Phillips, David Oaks, and then ultimately you know other
people too that are involved in this. But like, I
really that's that's that's the one thing. Honestly, their memory
(34:23):
acknowledging it happened, I think is the most important thing.
And then I think, you know, also, you're gonna feel
a lot of feelings and I hope and I hope
they make you think.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah, right, I love that. Well, Jody, this has been
amazing you and the rest of the team. Charles ed himself,
the rest of the Tenderfoot team, super.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Proud of all you all you guys. It's truly a
one of a kind.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I think you put together a blueprint for a new
kind of true crime show that has really resonated with
listeners and myself and is extremely special and I think
a positive impact on a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
So great job that.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
And I mean, like again, I don't think that anybody
the part of this journey was just like pitching the
story around and seeing who would want to tell it,
and the fact that you and Donald said yes, let's
tryin let's go. Yeah, I mean, like, thank you for
being on the crazy train. I think that's a big
part part of taking the risk is finding somebody who
(35:31):
who knows the genre but is also willing to take
risks and push stories. So again, we wouldn't We would
not be here if it weren't for you guys, And
I know that Ed, Charles and myself are so appreciative.
So thank you guys so much, and I hope everyone
enjoys it.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Well, thank you so much. This has been awesome.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Uh, if you haven't listened to the podcast yet, I
don't know why you're here, so definitely gonna listen to
it now or re listen to it. But Jody, this
has been amazing. Charles, excellent job, Ed, you're the man. Yeah,
Wisecrack is an amazing body of work. And I might
just go binge it again myself because every time I
find a new Easter Egg in there, So please do give.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Me another download.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
I will
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