Hilarie Burton Morgan

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello
Whips Marties. We have a very special episode for you today,

(00:21):
the literal payton to my brook, the twin to my flame,
my bestie of almost twenty years, which is an insane
thing to say. None other than the inimitable Hillary Burton
Morgan is here today. Many of you saw on social
media that I hosted the Los Angeles book tour stop
for Hillary's latest book, Grimoire Girl, and we had such

(00:44):
a good time talking about the book, life, lessons, friendship
and everything else that we thought why not bring all
of you into that theater with us and give you
the audio from our book tour. So this will be
the first of at least a two parter, perhaps a
many parter of all the interviews Hillary's going to come

(01:06):
and do on this show because we have so much
to discuss. But today we're going to discuss Grimwore Girl,
magic and friendship.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Enjoy.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
My best friend here has been traveling all over the
United States and she went out of her way to
be here to day.

Speaker 4 (01:34):
She flew in this afternoon, so here for me, it's
a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
That's a big ask of someone to like, can you
just fly across country to profile my book. He did it,
and we've worn matching outfits in the past, but again today.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
We showed up in velvet.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, I know what you like.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
I feel like my mic.

Speaker 4 (01:58):
Is so loud, always screaming. Is it just said?

Speaker 2 (02:01):
I can hear myself.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
She said, you're perfect? She is perfect? All take it perfect?
You know what's perfect?

Speaker 1 (02:09):
This book that I clearly didn't like because I dog
her at every single page. I was like, how am
I supposed to talk to you about this for forty
five minutes?

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I feel like this could take four hours?

Speaker 3 (02:18):
But you lived that book, I know, which is weird
because of all the people that I've sat with in
talks for this book, you were the person that was
there for all those chapters. Well, not home in Virginia,
but I definitely have told you all the dirt on I've.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Seen the yearbook photos. She was so cute.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
She's been in the Haunted house, like all the current
stuff that I talk about, like loss in the book,
like you are the person that hold my hand for
all of it, and so I'm so grateful.

Speaker 4 (02:47):
I love I love you. Yeah, all right, So what
do we want to dissect you guys.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Guys.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, here's the thing is, your team is so nice.
And they gave me this like very formal. They were like,
just to prepare you, we'll make you a one sheet
and I was like okay, And then you were like,
look at your book, you nerd.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Should we just play like dog ear Roulette?

Speaker 4 (03:11):
Let's just play dog. I want to see what I've
tolded here.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Oh okay, I really like this. So we get to
page fifty eight and you're talking all about working at
MTV and how like leaving Virginia put you in the
position to travel a lot, and that there was something
about collecting all of those stories in that era. And

(03:36):
I tell her this all the time on the podcast.
You're so good at interviewing people because you're curious and
genuinely interested in what they like. And I can always
see when someone's sharing something with you that like, really
she she's like, she feels in and she gets but

(03:58):
for good stories. Yeah, but you talk here about all
those years later realizing that the stories stay, and watching
George go scream to the monsters on the farm, and
you say, the only way for a story to live
forever is if you start telling it. Yeah, and we've

(04:20):
lived other people's stories that we've told.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
For our jobs.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Sure, we've had stories told about us that are not true.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
I mean, we've had stories told about us that are true.
We did that, We did that.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
And there have been some stories that we've been like,
can't wait to tell this one, and some that have
taken us a really long time to feel secure.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Enough to share.

Speaker 4 (04:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
So when you talk about this, what does it mean
to you now as the woman you are now, as
the mom you are now? Is the professional you are today? Like,
talk to me about when you decide to start telling
a story. Well, that's just.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
It, right, So I write this whole chapter about telling
stories that are folklore, okay, like ghost stories that I'd
grown up with or the folklore of my hometown that
I've shared with my kids. But it's a metaphor, right,
because while I'm writing all of these folklore stories, and

(05:24):
while I'm telling my kids these fables, you and I
were in the process of telling our work experience stories
for the very first time. And that's our own personal mythology, right,
And so we had to live for a very long
period of time with people jumping to conclusions about us
or creating narratives about us that weren't true, and it's

(05:49):
the techy thing to do is stomp your foot and
be like, that's not true, you know, but thou doth
protest too much. And so we just waited and we
waited and we knew our truths together and that was enough.

Speaker 4 (06:05):
And so being able to share.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
Those truths now as grown up ladies feels really nice.
It's like getting to eat the dessert finally, where it's like.

Speaker 4 (06:14):
Oh god, finally, okay keylan pie. It's fantastic.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
And it has made me eager to just be truthful
about everything, right, which I have to temper because I'm like,
calm down. But I think when you tell a truth,
when you tell your specific story, you breathe life into
it because it's going to be different than your friend's truth.

(06:40):
It's going to be different from the truth that other
people experienced in that moment. But it's yours and it
is valuable and you deserve to honor it.

Speaker 4 (06:49):
And so yeah, for.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
People who are who are reading that and thinking it's
just about like ghost stories, cool, but maybe it's a
ghost story about you. It's about a different version of yourself.
You know, you and I have been many, many different people,
and we've got juicy stories about all of them.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, and something I think that's interesting because you love spooky, yeah,
is you begin to realize what stories shape you and
what stories haunt you.

Speaker 5 (07:20):
Who.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, And it can be scary to tell a haunting,
but we've done it and suddenly you realize there's no
monster under the bed anymore.

Speaker 4 (07:32):
Well, that's what it does. It's like flicking the lights on, right.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
If you talk about the scary thing, if you talk
about the hard thing, if you talk about the frightening
situation that you were in, the more you talk about it,
it dispels the monster. And that has been really healing
in our lives together. But it also you know, you
get to boil it down and do it for your kids.
Now with my kids, I'm like, the more we talk

(07:57):
about you being scared of the monster in the woods,
the more we talk about you being scared of the
bully at school, the more we talk about it, the
less power it has. And so I want to encourage
people to do that. And if you have to create
a metaphor for the rough thing in your life, like
do that make up a ghost? Story, make up a

(08:17):
haunting story, make up a banshee story.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Oh, banchees are scary, man, And so yeah, I want people.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
I think that is the origin of a lot of
these oral traditions. Right. It was like people were feeling
fear and they would share that fear with their neighbors
or their families or their loved ones by telling stories, right,
because it's it's easy. I'm not talking about me, I'm
talking about somebody else. It's like talking in code. And
I think that's a lost art form. That's why, you know,

(08:47):
that's why we like movies, That's why we like podcasts,
It's why we like narratives and books because it allows
us to take the feelings that we have trouble feeling
in our own life and assign them to someone else.
And yeah, I mean we certainly have experienced our fair
sure of that.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
Oh you two do trauma when.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
We'll be like, oh, who do you want to talk
about our things? Okay, I also will say that I
think something really interesting of our twenty years together now
is that because look, I mean, all you know us
like we can be hot headed. Who like Honestly, the

(09:25):
greatest comment I've ever been given in my life. Probably
top five for sure, I'm being hyperbolic. Definitely Top five
was when Jeffrey was.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Like, Yo, nobody goes for people for my wife like me,
but you And I was like, she was my wife.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
First, bro.

Speaker 4 (09:44):
Yeah, and obviously, oh my god, yeah, they have her own.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Like ex thread going at this point and I'm just like,
who are you talking to?

Speaker 2 (09:54):
I love that man.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
They're my Barracuda's you know, They're just like I'm in
a gooding today.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
But the the cool thing about it is like we
were definitely more hot headed when we were younger.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Now I think we're smarter. And it is interesting to
learn patience about when you tell your story.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, like, let everybody do what they're doing and go
I can outweigh you. Yeah, I'm patient. And you have
really taught me.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
That long game.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Oh boy.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yeah, because you know we talk about this at length
on the podcast. I had monsters in my closet for
a very long time that I could not talk about, and.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
That is really frustrating because you're.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
Like, can't anyone else see the monsters? Am I the
only one? And when you finally tell the truth and
you find the other person who saw the monster, and
then there's someone else that saw the monster, and all
of a sudden, you can be together and you're like, great,
now we're gonna light torches and get pickfulitch like we're
going for it. Yeah, right, that's an important that's an

(11:03):
important step.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
And I give my kids that same advice. I'm like,
take your time.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Take your time with how you feel, take your time
with how you tell your story, take your time when
you feel like you're under the microscope. And a lot
of this book is about slowing down. It's about slow communication.

Speaker 4 (11:24):
I talk about.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
Writing letters in this book because paper mail slows us down.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
You know, we need to.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
We're seeing so much like disinformation and misinformation on the
internet right now, and I think it's because everyone wants
to be the fastest and the quickest, and I think
slowing down is an important thing for us to do
in this moment because we want the truth and.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
The truth takes them minute.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
I love that it does.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
And you know what else I love about I mean paper, books, mail,
all of it.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
You can't reread a phone call.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
No, Like, there's something so precious when you talk about
your the treasure box on the bookshelf.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Dude, you know, at Hester's house.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
And I'm like, oh yeah, I like I remember where
it sat and the books on the thing. And we
were there for so long, like the first editions we'd
find and the homes we'd collect that filled that out,
and those are the things you.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Can pick up and smell and look at. And I'm terrible.
I can't give books to anyone because I write in
all of them.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
Well that's it. We write in all our books, all
of them.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
When we first started working together, Jojo, our hairdresser, pointed out,
She's like, y'all just go in your own like little
world and you got your pants and you're writing in books.
Are you two taking a class together?

Speaker 4 (12:44):
I don't know about that. I was like, no, maybe
we just hit life. We just needed to nerd out.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
There was a point where I was reading Aldous Huxley's
Doors of Perception, which is all about drug use like
LSD and stuff, and I was taking it so seriously
and I just remember like like Sophia coming up and
being like, what are the outlines? You know, like what
are you underlining in here? What are the notes in
the margin? And when you do that to a book,

(13:15):
you are participating as an audience member. There is something
magic about a book because it's I have heard Alice
Hoffman say this. She's like, a book is nothing. It's
not a piece of art until a reader reads it. Right,
it is the most intimate art form because pieces of
art can exist, you know, songs can exist, but a

(13:38):
book is only as good as the person reading it.
And so that's the kind of intimacy I'm after.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
I love it. You're gonna love this quote Jed shared
with me today. It you know, he sent me a
picture of text. I still don't know what that's technically called,
which is embarrassing. It's a picture text, like you know,
like it's like it's a picture of text.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
It's not a meme, but it's it's like a screenshot.

Speaker 4 (14:01):
Of those little like yeah script.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Like Instagram poetry, you know.

Speaker 6 (14:06):
Like.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
I'm in we know each other all the time.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
It's so embarrassing.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
But he sent me this one that was like, really,
think about what a book is. You're holding slices of
a dead tree hallucinating And I.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
Was like, so Aldus Huxley, I mean not wrong. And
now everyone's doing ketamine treatment. Hell yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
We were talking about it with my mom backstage you guys.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
Hi Mommy, Hi Mom, She's there.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
There you are.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
So actually this is perfect because on page one hundred
and fifteen you're talking about like, yeah plus Ebo effect. Fine,
but you say I have a healthy amount of skepticism,
even though I do declare that I believe in everything.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Oh yeah, how do you hold both?

Speaker 3 (14:59):
I think you well both with great humility. Like I
used to say all the time to Wendy Bell, our
makeup artist on a show that we worked on, that
we're on strike and we're not gonna talk.

Speaker 4 (15:08):
About I used to say that.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
God has a much better imagination than man, and it's
disgusting for humans to think that they know what God's
sense of humor is, or like all the things that
he would dream up, like a platypus.

Speaker 4 (15:28):
Come on, you guys.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
If there's a platypus, there's one hundred percent of Bigfoot, right,
and fairies and all of the mystical things. You know, Like,
we deserve the opportunity to be surprised by the world
and to find wonder in it and imagination and this
idea that we have all the answers already wrong. There

(15:53):
are aliens and Mothman's probably real too. It makes life's
so much more fun when you're not arrogant about thinking
you have all the answers and you give yourself over
to the freedom to just buy into it.

Speaker 7 (16:11):
You know.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
I want to believe that they are all those things
because I want to find magic in the world and
just the possibility. I don't have to see it, but
the possibility that it's.

Speaker 4 (16:23):
There is exciting. But also Bigfoot is real. So yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
But the chapter you talk about synchronicity, that's what it's
all about, right, Yeah, Like when you start to pay
attention and things continue to surface at you, like we're
both eleven eleven girls, Oh my god, all day and
when I'm all day and when I'm having like a
big day, Yeah, it's every hour.

Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, it's ten ten, it's.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
Eleven eleven, it's twelve twelve, it's one eleven, it's two
twenty two.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
I'm like, am I what is it about to happen today?

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (16:57):
My god? Today?

Speaker 2 (16:58):
But that hasn't happened so far.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
But like there's time when you start to and you
say it in the book, you say, pay attention to
what is happening? What's being spoken about, who's talking, who's
in front of you? Like when I.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
Feel like I'm in these moments of synchronicity.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
I look around and I'm like, who's in my life
now more than they usually are?

Speaker 3 (17:20):
Like?

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Am I seeing you every three weeks instead of every quarter?

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Are we? Whatever it is?

Speaker 1 (17:27):
I look around and I think I need to pay
attention to this. I may not know what it's going
to mean for a while, but I need to pay
attention to this.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
When do you feel like.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
You were paying enough attention to synchronicity that you decided
to start to market when it happened? Like, was there
a year or a moment or a thing when it changed?

Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, this is I haven't talked about this.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
During the pandemic.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Right before the pandemic hit, I took notes on my phone.
I had a dream where a friend who had passed
visited me and it was very weird. I was in
my high school and there were armed guards everywhere all
over the school and we were hanging out and I

(18:19):
was like, I have to make this flight to Denver
and they were like, no, you're not going to go
anywhere right now, and you're going to sit tight. And
it's going to be okay, but it's going to be really, really,
really scary. And I had this visit from a friend
that had passed whose birthday is eleven eleven. And after
that dream, I saw it constantly, like constantly, and I

(18:45):
was really rattled by it because it didn't feel like
a dream, it felt like a visit. And so I
just started to be aware of the people who I
was talking to in those moments, and it started to
be the same people over and over again. And what
you find is like athletes will talk about finding a groove,
they'll talk about finding a rhythm right, and they call

(19:07):
it flow, and as artists it's the same thing. It's like,
all of a sudden, you're writing because you're in your flow.
You're painting because you're in your flow. You're making music
because you're in your flow. I started to find that
when I spent more time with the people who were
popping up in those synchronicity moments, that the flow like
all of a suddenly, We've got this podcast happening, and

(19:29):
I'm working on this book, and like all these business
opportunities are opening up, but also like my relationship with
my husband is so much stronger, and like everything started
to flow when I became aware of surrounding myself with
magic people that pop up at magic moments. And you're
definitely one of those people. Like when we are in

(19:50):
the same room, everything is possible and there's nothing that
is impossible, and that's you know, we're filled with so
much drudgery in our lives. It's like, Okay, we're doing
the dishes, and we're doing the Lundrian, we're doing all
the boring stuff. If you can open up to figuring
out who your magic people are, it really will make

(20:13):
everything so much lovelier. Those are the people who are
going to be your pemphals, those are the people who
are going to be your confidants.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
Those are going to be your mischief makers.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
And yeah, being conscious about assigning people those roles is important.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Well, well, because that's how you take the synchronicity. It's
how you take the awareness that something magical is happening
and you put magic back in.

Speaker 4 (20:37):
Well that's it.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
If you're just like, okay, cool eleven eleven every day,
that's dumb. But if you take something that like sure,
maybe it's a plassy about maybe eleven eleven means nothing, right,
But I have people who consistently check in on me

(20:58):
on a regular basis who just happened to.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
Show up at that time. That is enough.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
You know, it doesn't have to be magic. It's consistency.
And we've said this on the podcast before. The love
is consideration consistently and so you're finding those people that
hold that magic love for you because they're consistent.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Hmm. I feel like if I was Oprah, I'd be like,
tweet it. Oh, Brah, you know I love when she
says that.

Speaker 4 (21:31):
Does she say that? Yeah, She'll stop a show and
be like, tweet it. And I'm like, she's not wrong.
Put it umbert shirt girl, you need an Oprah show?
Come on now? Ready do this? Okay? Wait?

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Oh I can't read.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
No, she's wait, she's playing well yeah, because I was like,
what's the next one?

Speaker 2 (21:52):
And I was like, oh, that's the sweet thing he
wrote for me. I put hearts in the margin.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
I don't mean to read it.

Speaker 4 (21:55):
I did.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
I said that Sophia is my activism muse. I think
finding muses in your life and your real life is
really important. I was obsessed with the idea of muses
when we were young.

Speaker 4 (22:08):
Probably because I was hanging out with a bunch of musicians.
I can about it.

Speaker 7 (22:12):
Hey, this lizard wah Shelly him my angel.

Speaker 4 (22:23):
Yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
I had this idea that being a muse was like
really sexy and cool, and then I was like, wait
a tick. I don't want to be someone else's muse.

Speaker 4 (22:32):
I want to be my own mus.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
And I want to have muses. I want to have
people that make me want to be better. And you
are absolutely one of my muses, because I don't know
how you fit all the stuff you do into a day.
Like you're in Detroit, You're in New York, you're like
across the pond doing all sorts of stuff, and you're
always helping people and building other people's businesses and putting

(22:55):
real thought into activism and supporting other people, and then
you also managed to have a career of your own,
which is batch to me. I'm like, if I can
get the dishwashers.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Started, I think I think it's just like real bad
add but thank you good.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
Hey listen, that's one of those magical things. Were like,
you could label it's something negative, or you could say
she has superpowers.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, I'm like I could be medicated, or I could
do all these things at the same time. God, we'll
be back in just a minute. But here's a word
from our sponsors.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Okay, actually this is perfect because this is.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
This is something we've talked about the way we used
to use phrases.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
To undercut ourselves.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
Yeah, she knows mine.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
I'm not going to tell you all. Yeah, not yet,
but you you did. Used to say this all the time.

Speaker 4 (23:59):
I still say it all the time. Tell them, guys,
I make poor choices all the time.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
And uh, it's fine, I've done, okay making poor choices,
but I make really poor choices. And when I met
Markey Post, is Kate here?

Speaker 4 (24:19):
Yeah, oh I love Marky's daughter is here? Listen, Sophie
and I only.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
Got to play Marky's Daughters on TV, and we were
so jealous of the guys because with all the fairies
and like all the fun stories.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
That she told us about you guys, you know, that.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
Was just a life that seemed magical to me. And
your mom was such a light. And so when I
told Markey Post, I make poor choices, she burst out
laughing and was.

Speaker 4 (24:47):
Like, oh my god, I love poor choices. And that's
how I know.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
Not I knew that i'd like found a woman, you know,
and so, yeah, your mom made me a pillow that
said I make poor choices on the billow, And it's
like in my.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
House, my children are like, Mommy.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Do you.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
Yeah. But I see so many people.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
With the artifice of social media really trying hard to
pretend like they've never made a misstep, or that every
choice they've made is great, or that they're always on
the best vacation or they're making the best soured oat.

Speaker 4 (25:23):
Bread or whatever, like perfection is not for me.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
And if anything, I wrote the whole book Rural Diaries
about being a failure at so very much, and I
feel like a lot of people connected with that because
there's fun and failure.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
It means that you tried something new. It means you
tried something out of the box.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
And sometimes poor choices, like running away with a man
that you barely know and having a baby with him
after knowing him for three weeks.

Speaker 4 (25:52):
Is like a great idea. It's worked out, Honestly.

Speaker 8 (25:58):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah yeah, because I was in Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
She was in the next time I saw Sophia, we
just sat down at a bar and we like closed
the place down, and I remember we were like seated
on the bench and.

Speaker 4 (26:11):
We were like, okay, so what's getting out of this place?

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yeah? Yeah, poor choices are so fun because at the
end of the day, when we're all in rocking chairs
and I would say with gray hair, but here we are,
when we're nice and jeriatric and we're thinking back on
our lives. Are we gonna be like, wow, I'm so
glad I was so conservative in my choices, or are

(26:38):
we gonna be like.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
I was bad?

Speaker 3 (26:43):
We were bad and it's fantastic because great, it's so
much more fun.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
And so many of the things we are a little
bummed about now.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Are the things we didn't do.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
We should have kissed everybody.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
I know, I know, I know what were we thinking.

Speaker 9 (27:00):
Jesus, Yeah, we did okay to be fair, but no,
I wish because we both had good girl complexes, like each.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
One of us was like, well, I was a virgin too,
you know, like we were trying so hard to be
such good girls. And what we didn't realize is that
our worth was not and how obedient we could be.
Our worth was not in how subservient we could be.
Our worth was not in plain by the rules. Our

(27:31):
worth was our ideas, our ambitions, our our energy that
we give to other people, like that's our worth and
so only realizing that in you know, the last the
later part of my thirties, was I able.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
To just go full witch and like just give in
to it. Yeah it feels so good.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah it feels nice. Yeah, we don't care.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
No, there's something so special. And it took me longer,
but I think there's something so special about going wait
a second, what happens if I stop saying like, oh.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Thank you, Sorry, I didn't want to be in the way.
I didn't want to like ask for too much? Yeah,
is everyone else okay?

Speaker 4 (28:20):
For your whole life?

Speaker 2 (28:21):
And going well what do I want?

Speaker 4 (28:24):
Yea? What do I need? A?

Speaker 1 (28:27):
It's a shift that sounds small, but it's monumental and
you encourage that in the people in your life and
when you talk even about the first book. Nia said
something to me in Detroit this week, my God, like,
my friends are so smart. Look at them and my
other best friend who lives in Detroit. All my best

(28:48):
friends live so far away from me.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
Yeah, we just need to start a comment with I'm
working on it. I need to make it easier.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
But we were talking about this idea, and someone asked
a question about failure in small business.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
Yeah, and Nia was like, I don't.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Talk about successes and failures anymore. I talk about wins
and losses because everyone goes through loss in their life,
and everyone has days when they win, and they're just facts,
they're not actually about you.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
And I was like tweeted, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
And like even that this idea that you can kind
of you can wrap yourself in your wins and your
losses and your confusion and your clarity, and all of
it goes in the grimoire, like all of it goes
in the pages of the record of your life. And
you wouldn't be who you are without every single thing

(29:42):
that's ever happened to you.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
Well, so I talk about Ulysses a lot in this
book because I grew up on Ithaca, and I've got
a big, huge hip tattoo that says Ithaca and Ihica
was Ulysses home that he left to go fight the
Trojan War. And he's gone for twenty years and all
he wanted to do was get back to this home.
But he gets there and it's not necessarily the home

(30:06):
that he left, right, It's never the home that you left,
and this idea that you could still come home to
it and it's like a valuable thing even though it
is different, is important.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
But the bigger thing for me was understanding the hero's journey.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
And how forgiving we are when we're reading books or
we're watching TVs and our heroes stumble and they make
a bat they make a poor choice and you know,
they backslide, and we root for those people even in
their losses, but we don't do it for ourselves. So
in writing your own grimoire, you are the hero of

(30:47):
your own little Ulysses story, right, And you're honoring your
losses in your grimoire in a way that makes them
maybe hurt a little bit less, but also it allows
you to celebrate your wins in a really triumphant way,
you know, because you're not seeing them isolated. You're seeing
them as the culmination of this big, huge, twenty year

(31:08):
journey you've been on. And so yeah, I mean, I
was back home in Sterling, Virginia just this past weekend.
I was there Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and it is
one hundred percent different than how I grew up. And
it was scary to me because I didn't know how
to drive around my community. It was like nine thousand
people when I went to school there, and there's.

Speaker 4 (31:31):
Thirty thousand people in my little town, but.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
Like like two hundred thousand in like the greater area,
so it's unrecognizable. And yet at two o'clock in the
morning on Saturday night, after I'd worked all day in
my high school, like signing pictures and stuff, I'm out
with the football team and the minds.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
And like the cheerleading squad and like the good girls.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
Like we were all out doing shots, and I was like,
home is completely gone, but it's still here, you know.

Speaker 4 (32:03):
And I wouldn't have been able.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
To celebrate that if I hadn't left for twenty years.
You know, that night wouldn't have felt so magical, if
it hadn't been such a journey to get back home
to that spot. And so that's what I want people
to have for themselves. Like seriously, writing it down is
what they tell you to do in therapy.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
We're just calling it something magical. Yeah, you know, it's
all the same thing.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
I mean, therapy is pretty magical.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
You can tell someone your feelings and they make you
feel nice.

Speaker 5 (32:32):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
And now a word from our sponsors. Okay, so what
feels like you did the first book? Yeah, you've helped
inspire people to collect magic. What feels like the next

(32:57):
hero's journey to embark on? You went home to EPA, Like,
where's the boat going?

Speaker 4 (33:04):
Now? Do you know where the boat's going on? Well?
I mean I know she knows where the boat's going on.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
I was giving you the opportunity to do the things
you want to tell them.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
There are things that you and I both loved as
young people.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
Stories, stories, and I both loved as young people.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
And in this phase of my life teeming with my
work wife and like, telling stories that matter and making
things for a new generation of young people is very
important to me because I look at the content that's
on TV, and I'm like, do I want George watching this?

Speaker 4 (33:44):
Like what's practical magic for my daughter? Yes? Do you
know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (33:50):
Like, there are certain touchstone things like we were so
excited to go to Wilmington, North Carolina because Empire Records
was filmed there and like like, oh god, it was
expanding day, Rexmanding day. And so I think this mix
of writing and telling stories and empowering other women is

(34:15):
really important, and so it becomes like this is solitary witchcraft.
You're working on your grimoire all by yourself. Like good, good, good,
that's the right first step.

Speaker 4 (34:25):
And then you build your coven, right, so like, who's
in my coven?

Speaker 2 (34:32):
And we're we're the like O O G.

Speaker 4 (34:36):
I have that picture that I drew in the trailer
I took. I drew a picture.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
I don't even know what year it was, but it
was all the women we work with, and I just
drew caricatures of every woman around this bubbling cauldron.

Speaker 4 (34:51):
And I was like, we're a coven. And so that's
like now when people are.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
Like you're a witch, I'm.

Speaker 4 (34:56):
Like, where have you been?

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Oh my god, tell me about the girl. Where's everybody been?
You know, we brought drinks obviously.

Speaker 8 (35:12):
Hm.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Okay, So it's a teaser, but it's not an answer
to my question.

Speaker 4 (35:16):
That's fine. We're gonna conjures, how about that. That's just fine.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Hmmm.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
We've talked about intent. Hold please, I told you it
was going to be roulette.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
I didn't plan. Oh. I want to talk about talismans.
Oh yea, because you're the best at this.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Look I love, But like, to be clear, we're the same,
Like we're gentle hoarders and gentle is being Hillary and
I we don't know, we don't know how to throw
things away.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
I'm worse.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
It's okay, you are worse, but I I.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
Benefit from it.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
Every ticket stub, every playbill, people are like, what are
you gonna do with this?

Speaker 4 (36:06):
I'm like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
I don't know what I can't but but you thank
you ritualize, you make it sacred.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
Talk talk to me.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
I think what I'm realizing in real time. What I'm
asking you is can you tell me what to keep
and what to throw on?

Speaker 4 (36:22):
What needs to stay? Okay? What's worthy is the experience, right?

Speaker 3 (36:29):
And so obviously we all hope that we have the
best memory forever and that we just remember the things
that we do.

Speaker 4 (36:35):
That's not the case.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
As I'm learning, as I get older, I'm like, oh,
I did that weird. I just recently did like a
TRL retrospective and they asked me for old videotapes and
like old pictures and stuff, and of course I had
it because hoarding, but I hadn't seen it in so long,
and I completely forgot whole chunks of my life. And

(37:00):
so for me, if there is an experience I want
to remember, I will hold on to the thing.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
If it's just ribbon, right.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
That's personal, that's a personal attack.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
It is my best friend Nick has lived with me
off and on for years, and Nick would just like
open a box and find all this ribbon and be
like Hillary.

Speaker 4 (37:23):
No, no.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
And so if it's an experienced thing, then keep it.
If it is not, then someone else is really going
to enjoy that, and we're going to take it to goodwill. Yeah,
I mean, look, I save everything. And what was lovely
about going home is that all the saving paid off.
Because for whatever reason, I have been able to remember

(37:48):
the names of every kid I went to school with, right,
And I think it's because I've got those yearbooks and
I'm not ashamed to say I look at them.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Damn it.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
I really value those people that I grew up with,
and I you know, I remember memorizing the back of
call sheets so I would know like every crew member's name,
And now when we go on to other jobs and
we see them, I'm like, oh.

Speaker 4 (38:13):
My god, how's your son Wolfgang?

Speaker 3 (38:15):
You know, like, yeah, that's a true story. I went
to work on a job right when the pandemic hit.
And there was a man that had worked with us
when we were younger, and I was like.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
Oh my god, how is your son Wolfy? And he's like,
he's actually here working. He's a pron ass man. Now
he's Jeff Lloyd's son, and so yeah, I think the
hoarding is beneficial.

Speaker 3 (38:40):
People have vilified it, And part of the reason they
vilify it is because everyone we talk about this in
the book, Home improvement shows have destroyed.

Speaker 4 (38:53):
People's lives. Well, they ruined personality.

Speaker 10 (38:59):
Girl, if one more distressed, pop, I'm saying, contract or
gray and beige walls, so you can you can work
on the resale value of your I'm going to shit
about the resale value of your home.

Speaker 4 (39:13):
I don't care. Paint it purple, painted green, paint it red.
Everything in Trio was red. Everything in my world was purple. Yeah,
we were color coded. But but this.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Idea that that everything is like supposed to be beige
and gray and really simplified really bothers me. And part
of that is decluttering your home so that the resale value,
you know, is high and it's easy to sell in
the future. You can't be in a relationship worried about
the exit, right, and you're in a relationship with your home.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
You got to treat that home like it's your.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Woman, and you have to dress it up and accessorize
it and treat it well.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Dorn it, give it gifts.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
But hello, your house deserves rings, yes.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
I'm saying so, yeah, treat your house like it's your
fancy girlfriend.

Speaker 4 (40:12):
That's what I want for you. Guys.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Well, it's also weird when you really think about it,
and this is something we have in our jobs, like the.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Temporary permanence.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, you're going to pick up and move somewhere, but
every year they're going to tell you might get canceled.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
So every year you're like, do.

Speaker 4 (40:31):
I don't commit, don't commit?

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Oh, and then they keep you.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
So you go home for the summer and you tell
your friends you can go to their weddings and then yay.
But also your show gets picked up, so then you
can't be in anybody's wedding and you go back to
your show and you're always kind of like do I
settle here or do I not? And it is a
very disconcerting way to feel. It's like one of the
weird side effects of working in the Circus and reading

(40:57):
that chapter in the book, I was like, what a
weird thing that we've encouraged people to feel temporary in
the place where they live.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
It's supposed to be the most sacred place in your life, right,
This is where you do your own like personal work.
It's where you bring your loved ones, like it's your church.
Why are we paying it contract or gray?

Speaker 4 (41:22):
I just I can't.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
I'm like, well, are you moving out like tomorrow?

Speaker 4 (41:27):
No, because if not, maybe enjoy your house.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
And by the way, I am a huge fan of
removable wallpaper.

Speaker 4 (41:35):
The where you are that matter the background on our.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
I finally got an office like an adult with gray
hair at forty one years old, and I was like,
I want to put up some wallpaper, and I got
the loudest, most eccentric wise paper I could.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
Yeah, because we live once, Like make it colorful. Color matters.
The two girls dressed all in black. You don't know
why we're wearing underneath.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
Listen, listen, Okay, I'm back the talismans please, yeah, oh yeah, talismans.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
But yeah, you should fill your house with talismans, Like
I have evil eyes all over my house because my
best friend's share a.

Speaker 4 (42:17):
Game is amazing.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
One.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
Oh, I've got two for you, and I'm gonna give it. Look,
I'm giving you that right now.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Look at that.

Speaker 4 (42:24):
See, never leave home.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Without one, you never know one.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
Yeah, yeah you. Filling my house with talismans is really important.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
And my husband did our book tour stop in Poughkeepsie
and jeff didn't realize that I have altars.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
All over the house.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
He didn't know.

Speaker 4 (42:40):
No, he was just like, she likes crystals.

Speaker 11 (42:42):
What do you want?

Speaker 3 (42:44):
And then when he read the book, he was like, oh, wait, no,
I get it now, Like that's what those are.

Speaker 4 (42:49):
That's a deepot for magic.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
Yeah, I'm like, Jim, there's like a deer jaw there
and some crystals and some candles.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
What did you think it was? He'll get there.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
I love him.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
I know you. You are so in love. I Jeffrey
loved her so much. He's like the big brother.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
I never got to have it.

Speaker 4 (43:08):
That's it. And you guys give each other. I love it.
I love it.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
It's really fun.

Speaker 4 (43:12):
He can be in the coven.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
In he per tends to be above it, but he
also has taken advantage of my ability to heal burns.
He burns himself all the time, and he'll just walk
up and be like, just the.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Random I don't want to ask, but help me.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
It's interesting to talk about you guys. Like obviously there's
so much humor because y'all are funny, but there's like
deep love. You were willing to take a risk. You
trusted your gut, which was hard after we'd been raised
as young adults in a place that told us every
single one of our gut instincts was wrong.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
Poor choices, oh boy.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
And the way.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
That you open the book is something that I love.
I talked about it when I posted about it, this
idea that you can create your own inheritance, and that
an inheritance doesn't mean like how much money is in
your bank account that you're going to leave for your
family to fight over.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Unless you're good at paperwork, I'm.

Speaker 4 (44:19):
All, there will be nothing left for you.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
But like this, this inheritance of magic that you can
make tradition if you didn't have it that because let's
be real, most people don't have a perfect family. Or
you leave it to beaver Life or the Brady Bunch,
Like most people have stuff they have to carry with

(44:46):
them and eventually go to therapy for And I love
this idea that you've been really conscious in your family
about what you want to create to fill the ga
of what.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
You weren't given and what you want to make just
because it's fun. Yeah, I just want you.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
To talk to people about Okay, Okay. So I read
a book called Italian Folk Magic.

Speaker 4 (45:16):
Oh about it? Are you a little Italian? Just a week? Okay?
Fantastic book.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
Mary Grace Farron is a Canadian writer, but she comes
from a long line of Italian women who would never
say that they were practicing magic because they're deeply Catholic,
but they're probably magic. And so she did this whole
book about this hereditary magic that was generations deep and

(45:43):
so ingrained in the culture. And I stuck up a
friendship with her, just like being a fangirl on social media,
and I was.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Like, what you have is magic?

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Like I love that you have this bond with your
aunts and with grandmothers and things like that. Very jealous
of that because it doesn't exist in my family, you know,
like my mom's side is like full Dutch guys.

Speaker 4 (46:07):
I have no idea what that means.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Like if there is someone that is Dutch that wants
to walk me through my hereditary magic, my birthright. I
would very much appreciate that. I just know I sunburn.
And so then my dad's side had this like Appalachian magic,
but it was incredibly taboo. We did not ask about it.

(46:30):
And you know, my grandmother died and no one told
me for like eight years.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
And so by the time I found out she was dead, I.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Was like, oh, who, I'm never gonna learn that side
of my family.

Speaker 4 (46:44):
And for my kids, I had the choice whether I.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Was going to let them have this void, this vacancy
of hereditary magic, or just an inheritance of culture. You know,
Jeffrey at our last the bookstop that Jeffrey and I did.

Speaker 4 (47:03):
We joked, but when he was growing up, his dad.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Told him that he was Greek and Hawaiian and he
believed it forever, and he is not. Oh I know,
he's Welsh, and I know I know. He really thought
like he thought they'd changed their name at Ellis Island.
So he and I were like, well, God, we don't

(47:26):
have any cultural stuff to hand down to our kids.
What are we going to dig for and what are
we going to find ourselves? So I knew a little
bit about this kind of magic that my grandmother and
my dad's side of the family practiced, and so I
dug into that, and that's like Granny magic of the
Appalachian Mountains and pow wow magic of the Pennsylvania Dutch

(47:48):
and that felt like home to me because it is
one of the only the only situations I can find,
especially in the United States, where women were not vilified
for being practiced of magic or magical thinking or magical healing.
They were the heroes of their community and they were
protected at all costs.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
So I loved them like great, I love.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
That I have that to look to and be like, oh,
women weren't picked on in this situation.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
That's what I want my daughter to have.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
But then yeah, I also wanted my kids to have
holidays that were just specific to the Morgan family, and
so Jeff and I have always celebrated Timmy Nolan Day,
which is.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
A bar here and where is it? Is it until
Luca Lake or Bank? Yeah, yeah, that's definitely the bar
where we met.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
And so May eighth is Timmy Nolan Day and we
decorate like a't Saint Patrick's Day and get Guinness and
that's like our thing, and our kids don't know that
that's not a national holiday.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
Right, Like they're going to meet people later in life
and be like, you guys aren't doing Timmy Nolan.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Okay, alright, do you?

Speaker 1 (49:02):
But like, actually, what better holiday is there for kids
than the one that is the reason you exist exactly?

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Like I mean, he legit that night was like oday,
let's start a family, and I was like stop.

Speaker 4 (49:13):
They're like, oh my god, bom down. Okay, why not?

Speaker 5 (49:21):
Fine?

Speaker 4 (49:21):
Yeah, so Timmy Nolan day, guys you want this? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
I think it's really important for people to celebrate their
own personal holidays and celebrate a personal mythology that they
invent for themselves if it doesn't already exist. Like we
talk at length on the podcast about the early two
thousands where the meanest thing anyone could call you as
a poser, right, And there's this sense in our generation

(49:50):
of like, oh, you're making it up.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
You're a poser.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
You don't come from a long line of witches. And
it's like, fine, then I come from the first line
of witches.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
That's cooler and more work. Anyway.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
I don't want people to feel like they are beholden
to the things that.

Speaker 4 (50:07):
Have come before them.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
I want everyone to have the opportunity to invent who
they want to be and what they want to pass down,
and that includes your own personal mythology.

Speaker 4 (50:18):
I'm just gonna make some shut up. I talked to
Alice Hoffman about this.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
She and I both used to go into thrift stores
and just buy old pictures of strangers.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Right.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
I do this too, make up stories.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
I have them all over the corkboards in my office,
and people come over, they're like, who is that.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
I'm like, I don't know, that's it's aunt Agathas. Yes, yes, no,
I mean when I lived in Wilmington, my whole house
was decorated with other people's relatives and I would just
make up stories, by.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
The way, the best because we like old things, Yes
we do, you guys. We have antiqued and treasure hunted
and thrifted and like wound up in people's barns that
are having yards sales everywhere or.

Speaker 4 (51:01):
Not having yard sales, or just like, hi, what's friend
that We're not.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Super scary, we're harmless.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
The best place I've ever found that We're gonna have
to go make a movie in Toronto, just so I
can take you there and out.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Don't put this on the internet.

Speaker 4 (51:17):
I'm serious, don't. Just everyone in this room.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
I need you to like to energetically pinky promise me
because I don't give out like my tips very often.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
But an hour now, you know this is a freaking
virtual show. Well now I'm starting it, so I can't.
We're gonna have to cut it out. No, let's talk
to posts. So you're gonna easter egg it, easter eggit.
Just give them a hint and if they can find it,
then they earned it. Ooh yeah, swift this.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Okay, I don't I'm not a Okay, she's so good
at it.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
I'm not good at an easter egg.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
I'm just good at honesty. I'll just tell you the
man who runs the shop is eighty.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
He's lovely. He'll be thrilled if everyone shows up. The
best place I've ever found.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
To go thrifting is an hour outside of Toronto, and
it's literally called.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Dead People's Stuff.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
Stop. It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
Internet. You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
Oh man, So the friends I told I would never
share that, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 4 (52:22):
Listen, we're gonna road trip. You know, we'll go. How
far is Toronto?

Speaker 2 (52:28):
From the farm. You're not far okay, great, I'm ready.
I love a road trip. I'll make a playlist, I'll
pack snacks.

Speaker 4 (52:35):
She will though, she'll come with a whole like fishing.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
I will never go anywhere without snacks, just in case
there's a situation.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
I was a cam counselor.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
I have to keep other people's children alive.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
It's my job.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
This is probably why your daughter's my best friend.

Speaker 4 (52:50):
Yeah, George.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
George thinks that Sophia is Sophia, the first from the cartoon.

Speaker 4 (52:56):
She just thinks like she's grown up right, And.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
She's like, well, I know Sophia, and the other kids
at school are like, do.

Speaker 4 (53:03):
You she does?

Speaker 2 (53:05):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (53:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
I love it. I really love it.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
She sent me a letter recently with little dolls in it,
and I was like, I will hoard.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
This, Yeah you will.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, like I keep all of it.

Speaker 4 (53:18):
Yeah, she made your presence kills me.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
We'll be back in just a minute after a few
words from our favorite sponsors. I'm on the page about
the box in the hallway with all the letters in it.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
See, I told you it's roulette. I can't promise that
it's going to go in a good one.

Speaker 4 (53:41):
Okay, but it's gonna go in a good order.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
So I loved this so much that you talk about
learning a lesson that you have to open up if
you want to deepen your interactions with people, and that
you started to get the kind of of mentorship mothering

(54:04):
from Wendy Bell and some of the other women at
work who took care of us when you opened.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Up and said, Hi, how.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
I know because so many people talk to us online
and we get such great feedback from so many of you,
not only about the job we won't discuss because we're
on strike, but also from our podcast, And I think
such a universal thing that we all go through, that
we still go through, that so many of the people

(54:35):
in our community go through, is a very natural fear
of being vulnerable putting yourself out there, Like how do
I admit.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
What I want? How do I go after more.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Than what I'm offered, but really what I desire? How
do I say I want to be your friend?

Speaker 3 (54:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (54:57):
What a weird thing? Vable do you want to be friends? Guys?
Like how.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
You talk about how magical it is when.

Speaker 4 (55:08):
You open up? Yeah, but how do you do it?

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (55:11):
It's risky, man, it's risky.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
And there was recently a young a young woman who
came to an event in New York and she asked,
she was like, I don't have any friends that like
the same things as me, right, Like I want to
get into more of this spiritual talk. I want to
sit around and like have girlfriends that want to discuss
this stuff. I want to learn this from people. But

(55:34):
I'm in college and like.

Speaker 4 (55:36):
My friends just want to talk about boys or you know,
like whatever.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
And I got that really struck me because I remember
us being that age, right, and people had all these
preconceived notions of who you were and who I was,
and there was not a lot of room for us
to explore even though we were so young, Like we
should still be exploring at our age right now, but

(55:59):
like twenty come on now, and so putting yourself out
there is so much easier now than it was when
we were kids, because there's this magic thing called the Internet.

Speaker 4 (56:11):
Social media allows you to.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
Put in hashtag witches and like do you know what
I mean, and like find some people, and I think
that that's a really easy. Nice first step is to
practice vulnerability with like strangers like anonymous creatures on the Internet.

Speaker 4 (56:33):
And I certainly do that.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
I mean when I've reached out to Alice Hoffman or
Angela Slatter or any of these authors that I've talked about,
and I'm just fangirling, and I'm like, Hey, this thing
that you said really resonated with me.

Speaker 4 (56:48):
I would love to know more. Tell me what else
to read.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
I've certainly struck up plenty of conversations with people that
way and also created community that way. And once you
do that a couple of times, it makes it so
much easier to do it in real life. But I
also think it's really important to meet people where they
are right. And so if there's something you're wanting to cultivate,
whether that is like a spiritual community or friendships of

(57:16):
any kind, opening yourself up and putting yourself on that
person's turf is important. It is a show of support,
and it's really easy to always, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
Be like, do you want to come to my house?
Do you want to do this on my terms?

Speaker 3 (57:34):
And you experience so much more when you accept other
people's terms, and it will push your boundaries and it
will push your ideas. But I have learned so much
from showing up on your turf because it is very
different from mine. You know, you have been very good
in my life at pushing me outside of my comfort zone.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
And how much richer is my life because of that,
you know? And so yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (57:59):
Think that those situations, what's the worst that could happen?
Right Like you tell someone like hey, I want to
know more about you, I want to know more about this,
and they say.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
No, they're not the person you wanted to hang with anyway.
You know.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
I also think that the people who are supposed to
be in your world will give you encouraging signs. Like
sometimes it's right in front of your face. Sometimes it's
like the moms at PTA that are always there, and
you wouldn't think like.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
Hey, we're going to connect and get along, and then
all of.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
A sudden you're doing shots after the fundraiser.

Speaker 4 (58:39):
You know, sometimes it's right in front of your face.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
And so you are responsible for opening yourself up to
signs from other people. You are responsible for looking up
and for looking around and.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
Seeing maybe you know, you might be so focused on.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
Who you want to engage with, pay attention to who
wants to engage with you, you know, let yourself be pursued.
I would say that of my friendships. The women who
pursued me are still my friends. Like you pursued me,
Elizabeth pursued Elizabeth put me in a choke hold down

(59:18):
in Louisiana.

Speaker 4 (59:18):
I was like, we're going to dinner. I was like, yes,
we are.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
I like this, you know, I think, but I would
have shut that down because I was so insecure and
I was raised told that women weren't your friends.

Speaker 4 (59:35):
Don't trust women, don't trust women, don't trust.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
Women, and so in my early twenties it was women
like you guys that were like, no, we're friends, And
I was.

Speaker 4 (59:43):
Like, are you sure? Really?

Speaker 5 (59:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (59:46):
No, you set the tone.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
But I think there's something also kind of magical on
what you're saying, is that you can trust that your people,
like all of us, like the community that we built
that started twenty years ago, the people that are really
meant to be in your life will come around pretty
consistently until you look up. Yeah, because timing kinda is everything.

(01:00:13):
Oh sure, And so I think one of the things
we hear from a lot of people in our extended
community is that fear that they're going to miss it,
that maybe it's too late, and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
The book really.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
Is it's about magic and it's about mischief, but it's
also about holding onto your hope because you get to
make it. And it's such a great reminder, like, let
the anxiety about maybe I'm going to miss it go,
because what's meant for you will find you if you just.

Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
If you chill the book.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Dude.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Yeah, I really believe firmly that the calmer you are
and that's hard.

Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
It's hard for me to be calm. Oh for people
I guess to be calms are or weird, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
I would.

Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
First week of July.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Just made us anxious to the humans. And I think
when we first started becoming friends, we had a lot
of the same anxieties, which made us like magnets.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
But the sides that won't.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
Meet up or you know, oh yeah, because you can't
be both afraid of the same thing at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
And well when you don't have the language to communicate
it yet.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
Yeah, And so I especially for women who are conditioned
to think that there is a level of competition, or
not even a competition, but just that there's only room
for a couple of us, I really encourage women to
bleed all over the dance floor, like just share your feelings.

(01:01:52):
Tell everybody what you're thinking all the time. Tell them
what you're feeling all the time, and the right people
will be attracted to that. People who are willing to
share just as much will be attracted to that. And
then people who are shut down aren't the people that
you want in your circle anyway.

Speaker 7 (01:02:10):
So yeah, just share, share, share, share, share, share, share,
and then you know, like writing what another woman has
taught you in your grimoire is that's like a blood
of women used to die for that right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
If you learned from Helga how to use a plant
to you know, cure a fever, and you wrote Helga's
recipe in your book, not only will you get burned
for being a witch, but Helga would get burned too.
And so that act of solidarity of writing another woman's
impact on your grimoire is incredibly important.

Speaker 4 (01:02:46):
But it's you know, it's a sacred thing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Well, and it's a it's an energetic action in our
modern day to remind the world around us that there
is space for us. Yeah, the greatest lie that a
patriarchal society ever told us was that we weren't the
most powerful ones in the room.

Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
Dumb dumb, dumb. They're like, women talking is guff.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
You guys should not hang out because if you do,
you'll realize we're all idiots, we don't know what we're doing,
and we'll take over. Then we're like yeah da this.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Time, Yeah no, we figured out the secrets and we
were like, hold on, if we go over.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
There, we all go there. It's fun there and not
here at all.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
And that's what we've experienced working together, because it has
been so unproblematic and so peaceful and so just fun
and also productive as hell, and like, that's such a
nice feeling to know that for all the years that
I was told it was me, and all the years
you were told that you were the problem, to eliminate

(01:03:54):
everything else and be like, oh no, we actually were
the ones like get stuff done and like being sweet
about it and making it fun and so yeah, that realization.

Speaker 4 (01:04:05):
I hope more women come to at a younger age.
Me too, you know. I feel like the generation above
us is like, oh.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
We didn't get there till a little bit later, until
we were empty nesters.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
You know, we're not that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
We're figuring it out a little bit earlier, and the
next crop of ladies will figure out a little bit earlier.

Speaker 4 (01:04:23):
And then you guys are in Trumble, all five of
you here. How many boys are here? It's okay, You're safe.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Everyone is welcome here. I'll see you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
And now a word from our sponsors that I really
enjoy and I think you will too.

Speaker 12 (01:04:42):
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it's time to get real, up close and personal. I'm
gonna be talking to you like I'm writing in a journal.
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(01:05:03):
what's going on in the world. It's gonna be great
and I really hope you like it. You can listen
to Jojo Sewae now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 11 (01:05:18):
HI to both of you, how did you realize that
you needed to slow things down?

Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
I started losing my hair.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Yeah, when I when I don't sleep or I wake
up with like tooth pain because.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
I've clearly been grinding my teeth. I'm like, I need
to something means to be different.

Speaker 4 (01:05:41):
Yeah, we both had TMJ when we were younger. Remember
when we were just have lock jawn in the morning
and then have to do things together. And I was like, oh, crying. Yeah,
your body will tell you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
And women are conditioned to work through the pain and
you know, suck it up up. And I think it's
very important that women honor their bodies and understand that
our body is the barometer for everything in our life,
and so if it's gone sideways, it's time to make
some conscious decisions to do things differently. And not every

(01:06:16):
woman is in the privileged position of being able to
make those changes, and so if you are, you have
to make yourself healthy and make yourself right so that
you can help another woman maybe doesn't have the same
tools that you have. But yeah, dude, you'll start when
you start breaking out and losing your hair and just
everything's gross and you don't feel hot.

Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
Getting slow helps you get hot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
thank you.

Speaker 8 (01:06:48):
Yeah, Hello, how's it going. Oh I watched you guys
for years. Thank you for doing this today. But my
question was, is there going to be a companion to this,
like a spell book or a cookbook or either.

Speaker 4 (01:06:59):
Oh I mean per my contract? Yes, thank you harper One.

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:07:11):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):
I feel very lucky that my publisher has been really
open minded about all the things.

Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
You know. When I took.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
Them Rural Diaries, it was supposed to just be a
book about like funny farm stories, and then I wrote
a book about infertility and they were like, that's cool.
And then when I brought them this, I was like,
I'm all write a fun little spell book. And then
all my friends died and I was like, never mind,
I'm writing a story about loss and keeping your your
head on through all of that, which is the real

(01:07:41):
magic of life, Like how do you deal with tragedy
and not absolutely lose your mind?

Speaker 4 (01:07:47):
And that's what magic is.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
And so they were wonderful about letting me really pivot
this book because what I was living was very different
from the pitch document that I turned into them, and
so so in terms of building out on Grimware Girl,
they're very supportive of that. And I think that seeing
the feedback from people who have read it also means

(01:08:09):
a lot to them, you know, when they invest in
me as an artist, seeing that feedback is really important
because they know that people's lives are being changed because
they are softening and they're opening up and coming out
of a pandemic where everything was a hellscape. We're all
trying to collectively make things nice. You know. It's why

(01:08:31):
you see little girls share in friendship bracelets, and it
means so much.

Speaker 4 (01:08:35):
You know that making things nice is a valuable.

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
Effort, and we want to be a part of that. Yeah,
that's been important to since we were little. Hi.

Speaker 13 (01:08:45):
Hi, Hi, my name is also Sophia. I'm a very
very massive fan.

Speaker 4 (01:08:51):
So hello.

Speaker 13 (01:08:52):
My question is have you ever or what do you
do when you ever feel disconnected from the universe and
from the magic that you feel, or what advice do
you have to people who are struggling to get connected
to the universe and the magic in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
Yeah, I mean, for me, ritual is so important. I
get I get frustrated. I grew up in a house
for like, losing your temper was pretty normal, and I
didn't I didn't necessarily want to keep being that person.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
I mean, so you can tell you I'm a hot head.
I was a hot You.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Used to be so scared.

Speaker 4 (01:09:28):
And I don't want to be that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):
I want to be cool, and so instead I really
like candle ritual. And it's not lost on me that
there's a lot of candle ritual and ceremony also an
organized religion.

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
You know, if you go to Catholic church, you can
go and light a.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
Candle for somebody, if you have little altars at home,
you know, lots of world religions use candles as just
a way to meditate. And for me, it's been really
helpful to have that tangible thing where I can watch
the candle burn down, can I can see this transformation

(01:10:13):
that's happening and feel a shift in my own energy.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
It's a timed.

Speaker 3 (01:10:19):
Meditation really, it's the same as like if I had
a little, you know, glass timer. And I also think
that there are things you can do to add to it,
like I write about in the book.

Speaker 4 (01:10:31):
For me, there's a practice where you can use.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
A pin and you put a pin in the candle
as you're manifesting whatever it is you're hoping for, and
it's almost like a like a one of those magic
eight balls where if the pin drops, If the candle
burns down and the pin drops, it means that your
manifestation's going to happen. But if whatever reason, like the
flame goes out or the wax melts in a weird

(01:10:57):
way and the pin gets stuck, it's like.

Speaker 4 (01:10:59):
Baby, it's time to pivot.

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
So for me, I really like that physical thing because
even as I'm bebopping around the kitchen and that candle's burning,
I constantly check in with it, and it allows me
to put a timer on my own emotion, whether that's
frustration or grief or anger or any tough emotion that

(01:11:22):
I'm dealing with, it's just a timer on it.

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
And it also really freaks my husband out.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
When he comes in the kitchen and there's just a
candle's lip and he tries to figure out by the color.

Speaker 4 (01:11:33):
Of the candle what exactly I'm trying to do. Sometimes
that's enough feel me. Yeah, it feels.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
Cleansing, and then I'm also the lady with incense sticks
around my house.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Hi.

Speaker 6 (01:11:48):
My name's Gina. I just want to say thank you first,
and about being vultable. My questions coming really quick. But
I made a friend yesterday and I brought her here today.

Speaker 4 (01:11:57):
I'm you're vulnerable.

Speaker 6 (01:11:58):
Yesterday for four hours I wanted to shout out.

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
You guys were saying, I appreciate it, but I.

Speaker 6 (01:12:05):
Wanted to ask really quick if what is the first
thing that you do when you realize that you are
not being kind to yourself, like you're being hard on yourself?
Is there something that you say or do to bring
you back hoof?

Speaker 4 (01:12:23):
Yeah, I can get very frustrated with myself.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
I write in the book about writing your own eulogy, right,
and what that is for me is a running tab
of all the things that I've accomplished. And they're not
necessarily professional, but all the things that I've accomplished that
felt like a crazy story, like the kind of story

(01:12:48):
that I want told at my funeral, and in I've
been doing it for twenty years, and in writing my
own eulogy and keeping this list of just like Rando
stuff that I thought was either whole hilarious or really
daring or fulfilling, that is probably the thing that I
use most in this book.

Speaker 4 (01:13:10):
I come back to it over and over.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
And over again, and I can be like, all right, well,
I totally screwed this up. Like there'll be nights where
my family has all different dietary needs. There'll be nights
where I lose across the board where I just screw
the pooch, and I'll get so trusted and then I'll
remember that like I danced on a tabletop in Paris
with a snake around my neck, Like.

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
I don't care about dinner.

Speaker 5 (01:13:37):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
And so maintaining that sense of humor is important, and
having a tool to go back on is incredibly helpful
because we don't have perfect recall when we are in
the depths of frustration or despair, we're not reliable reporters.

Speaker 4 (01:13:55):
So that's why having things.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
Written down is really important, because this becomes your reliable reporter.
You get to write in it during your high moments,
so that when you are low, you have this cheerleader
that's you, right, and who better to cheer you on
than yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:14:16):
I want everyone to be just a little bit of
a narcissist healthy, the fun part.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
Yeah, not the toxic.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
But what you're also talking about is like a rebalancing
of the seesaw. Yeah, because when you're like in the
thick of it, you just think like.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
Oh'm terrible.

Speaker 4 (01:14:35):
Yeah, everything's bad.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
And one of the women who really mothered us in Wilmington, Jojo.

Speaker 4 (01:14:42):
Yeah she was our hairdresser.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
She was our older sister. She's just the best woman
I remember having.

Speaker 4 (01:14:48):
She's a woman that taught us to walk around with
paper cuffs.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
She sure did. We were like, okay, assignment understood.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
But Jojo, I remember one day when you know, we
were in the trailer in the morning and talking about life,
and I was like him and Han telling venting about
just every mistake I'd made and why everything was going wrong.
And Jojo spun me around in the hair chair and
grabbed me by the shoulders and said, you watch your mouth.
You're talking about my best friend like that. And I went, oh,

(01:15:21):
because I would never clearly like I would never allow
a person to talk about you the way I was
talking about myself, and I would, I would think that's
true for all.

Speaker 4 (01:15:33):
She really wouldn't. She would destroy them on the internet.
I've done it, and I'll do it again many times.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Proudly.

Speaker 4 (01:15:42):
Come for me, I dare you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
But like, I also think that as you lean into
a practice like this, like the kind of lessons that
Hill is giving us to, you know, create these years
and decades of a life that you can pick up
and read through.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
Like a week in you might be like, I don't know.
My list is pretty short.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
But a really good way to come back into your
body is to be like, would I let anyone talk
about my best friend like this? If I were my
best friend, how would I talk about her? How would
I demand other people acknowledge her and respect her? And
I think that that's a really healthy thing to begin

(01:16:25):
to learn, because I'm like, oh, I am the first
person who's like out with a flamethrower in a four
real drive if she's in trouble, and if I'm an home,
I'm like, I just I don't know. I deserve you
have to like bring your ride or die self for you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):
Also we talk about that in the book, like I
talk about like writing love poems to yourself and just
making a list of like all.

Speaker 4 (01:16:47):
The things that are good about.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
You, especially as women were conditioned to have kind of
this Midwestern sensibility of oh, don't pay me that compliment.

Speaker 4 (01:16:57):
I got it for free. It was in a box,
you know, Like, don't do that, like build yourself up.
You deserve it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
And we're not of the generation anymore where we have
to be passive, you know, be bold, and then.

Speaker 4 (01:17:12):
The right people will come along for the rind your
new friend. Hi, new friend.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:17:19):
Hello. My question is.

Speaker 11 (01:17:24):
Looking back over like the last ten or twenty years,
was there ever something that you feel like you didn't
have the insight or the like integration like shadow self
light self to put in a grimore But now you
feel like you do And if so, what do you
feel like got you there?

Speaker 4 (01:17:45):
If that makes sense? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:17:51):
I would have never been bold enough to say I'm
putting out a grimoire like I did not come from
a background. We're exploring this kind of thing was cool
or acceptable or save you know, I'm a church girl,
and finding the duality in that was a really difficult
journey for me because I was like, well, witchcraft is

(01:18:13):
the devil's work, right, Oh God, Had I given myself
permission to be curious about it as a young person,
I would have learned how wrong I was.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
And not wasted so much time.

Speaker 3 (01:18:26):
But so often like magic and witchcraft and all of
this like vilification of women. It described witchcraft as women
with the absence of God, right, with the absence of spirituality.

Speaker 4 (01:18:42):
And what I've found in all of the research.

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
That I've done is that it is the exact opposite.
When you are the kind of person who honors nature.
When you are the kind of person that finds spirituality
and divinity in everything, you are so much closer to
God than someone that sits in church for an hour
once a week. And the women who I have encountered

(01:19:04):
in the witch community are so divine and giving of
themselves and curious because they're not just exploring like pagan practices,
but they're also exploring Buddhist practices and Mary Magdalen and
her Book of the Bible and Christianity in its truest form.

(01:19:24):
And so in this book I go into religious talk
often because it is my upbringing. And certainly in the
Appalachian community and the Catholic community, there is so much
faith in magical practices that it is no longer the
division of women in spirituality.

Speaker 4 (01:19:45):
To me, it is the deep tissue.

Speaker 3 (01:19:48):
That connects our humanity. You know, women who are in
practice of witchcraft are the ones who are calling for peace.
They are the ones who are calling for love. They're
the ones who are calling for connection between people. And
so yeah, I wish I'd known that sooner. I think

(01:20:09):
I was told at a young age that curiosity was sinful,
and it is the exact opposite. It's a divine gift
that humans have curiosity, and so if we don't employ that,
we're spurning a gift that is, you know, a cherished thing.

Speaker 4 (01:20:25):
Yeah, I mean, we ask way too many questions, but
we're just exercising our gifts.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
My name is Victoria.

Speaker 14 (01:20:34):
Early in your book you mentioned inserting yourself into families
and curating your own traditions along the way. So I
was wondering what your favorite tradition so far in your
life has been that you've been able to share with
your kids that younger Hillary would be thrilled to see
you being able to live out.

Speaker 5 (01:20:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:20:52):
I mean, I was always so drawn to other cultures.

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
I was very, very lucky that as a young person,
I grew up by Dellas Airport, which is an international airport,
and who.

Speaker 4 (01:21:04):
Knows Dallas Hey now Loudon County.

Speaker 3 (01:21:10):
And what that meant was that my high school had
kids from Africa and kids from the Middle East and
kids from Europe and you know.

Speaker 4 (01:21:19):
Kids from all over the world.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):
And I took it for granted, you know, I was like, oh, okay,
everybody has that experience, and that's not true. And so
for me, you know my best friend in the Hudson Valley.
I've got a really good group of girlfriends there. One
of my best friends is Sheragian Camp, who was on
Friday Night in with the Morgans, and I write about her.

Speaker 4 (01:21:41):
At length in this book.

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):
And she comes from a really fabulous family and they're
from Iran, and so my children have grown up in
her home. My son is best friends with her sons,
My daughter is best friends with her daughter. And my
children love Iranian culture. They love the food, they love
it's a happy birthday song.

Speaker 4 (01:21:59):
Based is so much cooler than ours.

Speaker 3 (01:22:01):
Guys. They love that when they go to uncle Uncle's
house they get money for whatever reason. Like there's just
like and they eat rice with a spoon, you know,
Like there's just cultural stuff that they're growing up with
that would only happen if I was I was encouraging
them to open up to other people. And so I
do think that that's part of the coven, right, Your

(01:22:24):
coven should be a collection of people to each bring
different things to the table. If you're all kitchen witches,
it gets competitive, right. You want a crystal friend, you
want share games. The Evil Eye friend, she's the one
who hands out bracelets on the regular.

Speaker 4 (01:22:41):
You know, like everyone's.

Speaker 3 (01:22:42):
Got their little niche thing, and you want your coven
to encompass lots of different skill sets and so yeah,
encouraging my kids to reach out and make those kinds
of friendships is important. But we can't tell them. We
have to show them. You know, you have to do
it yourself. We'll call bullshit on you quicker than anyone.

Speaker 4 (01:23:03):
Yeah, so yeah, thank you guys.

Speaker 5 (01:23:07):
I'm yeah, well, look, I feel incredibly fortunate that my
ride or die, my sister could be with me here
tonight because this is a person who I've gotten to
make magic with in the past, and that I'm old.

Speaker 4 (01:23:25):
Baby, I'm so to it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
I'm excited to make magic with you in the future,
and I see the next twenty years as like better.
We're just like doing more, more and more more.

Speaker 4 (01:23:38):
So thank you guys for letting us be indulgent.

Speaker 3 (01:23:42):
And I hope that you write your grimoires and that
you find your fellow witches and that you write their
secrets on your pages and you take very good care
of each other.

Speaker 4 (01:23:51):
So thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:24:02):
Oh

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Sophia Bush

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