Natalie Portman

Today on Work in Progress, Sophia is joined by Natalie Portman (@natalieportman)!Natalie is known worldwide as an Academy Award winning actress, director, producer, and activist. Born in Israel, she immigrated to the US with her parents at the age of 3 and began auditioning when her family moved to New York. After her film debut in Leon: The Professional at age 12, Natalie has gone on to star in over 40 films. But Natalie is far more than a talented and successful actress. She has used her platform for extensive advocacy and activism, championing causes like the #TimesUp and #MeToo movements, animal rights, protecting the environment, Black Lives Matter, and many more. Proving that she really can do it all, Natalie recently published Natalie Portman’s Book of Fables, which retells classic children’s fables in a more modern and representative light.  On today’s episode, Sophia and Natalie discuss the 2020 experience, learning to act by acting, what it’s like to go to college when you’re already a movie star, and the unfortunate observation that the world tends to undervalue professions and skills that are stereotypically female. Natalie also shares how she faces the challenge of being a working mom while still making time for the causes she cares about. And she and Sophia touch on their mutual involvement in Angels FC, the national Women’s Soccer league franchise of which Natalie is a founder. Enjoy!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress,
where I talk to people who inspire me about how
they got to where they are and where they think
they're still going today. On Work in Progress, I am

(00:24):
ecstatic to share my conversation with one of the most
amazing women that I have come to know. She is
massively talented, incredibly principled, and very open about being on
an ever evolving journey. Today's guest is Mms Natalie Portman.
Natalie is known worldwide as an Academy Award winning actress, director, producer,

(00:48):
and activist. Born in Israel, she immigrated to the US
with her parents at the age of three and began
auditioning when her family moved to New York. After her
debut in Leah on the Professional at age twelve, Natalie
has gone on to star in over forty films. But
Natalie's far more than a talented and successful actress. She's

(01:10):
used her platform for extensive advocacy and activism, championing causes
like Time's Up and Me Too, animal rights, protecting the environment,
Black Lives Matter, and many more. And if that wasn't
all impressive enough, Natalie recently published Natalie Portman's Book of Fables,
which retails classic children's fables in a more modern and

(01:32):
representative light. This woman can truly do it all. In
my conversation with Natalie, we discussed the experience learning to
act by acting, what it's like to go to college
when you're already a movie star, and the unfortunate observation
that the world tends to undervalue professions and skills that
are stereotypically female. Natalie also shares how she faces the

(01:55):
challenge of being a working mom while still making causes
for the time she cares about, and we also get
into our mutual involvement in the Angel City FC, the
National Women's soccer League franchise of which Natalie is a founder.
This conversation was enlightening, fun, and Natalie is a true
gem of a human enjoy This has been such a

(02:21):
strange year, you know, and and all all of the
years of this administration, and and what has simultaneously opened
up I think in society during this time has been intense.
And then the last year being in the middle of
a pandemic, realizing the ways in which we participate in

(02:45):
the world and the ways in which we're falling behind
and in terms of caring for people, it is a lot.
And I wonder how has that experience been for you?
You know, you have a family. How are you guys
do doing in the middle of of a global pandemic? Yeah?

(03:06):
I think it's um absolutely a time that makes you
reassess so much of your values and beliefs and of
course your lifestyle because it has such a real tangible
effect on all of us, UM and brings you closer
to people and the fact that you're sharing this experience,

(03:27):
you know, I I keep thinking to myself so much.
I don't know, maybe this is strange, but my you know,
I grew up so much on stories of like my
family's experience in the Holocaust and in like the oppression
of Europe for Jews. UM. And I kept being like, obviously,
this is an extremely different situation, but is there something

(03:49):
different about it being like a universal, difficult yeah experience
versus like you're targeted because you're in a specific community. Um,
and then other people are just like living their lives.
Because right now I feel like it's something that almost um,
you know, brings community together because we are all going

(04:12):
through it together. Um. And so it feels hard UM.
But you also are like, we're all doing this, how
can we keep each other inspired? How can we keep
how can we take good energy from people? How can
we give good energy to people? And and it's it's
definitely an interesting thing to have like everyone suffering at once.

(04:36):
You know that there's like, uh, an unusual kind of
experience to that relative to I think other difficult world
events that have happened or that do happen. Yeah, it's
it's less possible to turn away and to say, well,
that's something happening over there, and and to think I

(04:57):
don't I don't have to pay attention to that. I
was really inspired. We we interviewed a friend of mine
who's a science communicator and an epidemiologist UM on the
podcast last week, and she was saying that in the
medical community, there's this incredible sort of feeling a phenomenon

(05:17):
because they've never ever in the history of modern medicine
seen the entire world work on a vaccine for the
same thing at the same time. Wow, And it made
it made me feel so much hope, you know, to
to be reminded of what we can do when we
really come together and act like a human team. Yeah,

(05:42):
it's it's so amazing what we're capable of and um,
and and that's the thing that's amazing is that you
really you're like, oh, that's what makes us successful as
a species is our ability to work together and like
create solutions together cooperation and uh and how that can

(06:03):
be applied to like so many different things. And like
you're saying, this kind of shared reality, this shared challenge,
very challenging reality. Hopefully will will come be universally working
on other kinds of solutions, like you know, the caregiving
issues that we've been facing, you know, as um, working

(06:25):
parents who are also taking care of children and perhaps
elderly family members or neighbors, and and and that crisis
and healthcare how you know, obviously we haven't prioritized it
in our country for so long, but of course that um,
now it's it's a reality to people that like it

(06:46):
affects you, even if you're not empathetic towards how your
neighbor's health care is going, it will affect your health,
how your neighbor's health and your lifestyle if your neighbor
has poor health. So like it's it's everybody. We need
community solutions for all of this, I wonder, and I

(07:06):
think when I try to figure out where my love,
which verges on obsession of community and all of us
waking up to being a global community comes from. I
think a lot about my parents immigration stories and this
kind of connectedness to places around the world. And I
wonder for you being born in Israel and then coming

(07:28):
to the US, and as you said, hearing your family
stories of Holocaust generations ago, and and being so connected
across geographical lines, do you think that that's part of
what gives you that awareness and that kind of empathy

(07:49):
for the world. Well, I I'm sure it has an
impact on me um and I'm I mean, I hope
that most people are And I do think I did
believe that most people are like able to empathize with
people all over the world, because I see it so
much when you see people like donating to disaster relief

(08:10):
in in Lebanon, when you know that awful explosion happen,
or like you see just like global community coming together
when horrible events happen, or when positive events happen, even
to celebrate you know somewhere, some some other place. It's
not your own. So I hope it's it's not specific
to to someone who has you know, a lot of

(08:31):
people from different places in their family, but I'm sure
it had an impact on me and certainly, UM, I
think being brought up in a way that made me
aware that like my family were um, marginalized and uh
killed for being part of minority group UM certainly gave

(08:54):
me a feeling like, oh, that's your job to make
sure that doesn't happen to anyone for being part of
any sort of category that people UM, you know, uh
denigrate they're oppressed. So UM it certainly felt like my
sort of like personal family story was implanted to like

(09:18):
give me, give me that kind of like purpose with
what what I do in my life when I see
things that um are unjust. But I think most people,
I feel like most people are raised that way. But
maybe I'm maybe I'm mistaken. I feel like most of
us are like raised to like stand up against injustice,
Like that's what we tell kids, you know. Yeah, yeah,

(09:41):
And I think when we when we witness the times
where people turn away or don't want to address injustice,
I often feel like it's because they're experiencing it in
their own lives or they have so much pain or
complication going on at present that they can't take on
someone else's. Is maybe my optimistic hope and you know desire,

(10:07):
as you said, to see us create better systems that
take care of people to lessen the complication or the
pain that they find themselves in every day health care
and mental health care, and a clean environment and access
to clean water and you know, eradicating food deserts like
these are the things that I think we can do
as a collective. Oh. Absolutely no, It definitely feels like

(10:29):
all the solutions are there and all the people and
burying power is there to do it. Yeah. When when
you think about you know, that story and the way
that you were raised, can you tell people a little
bit about what brought your family here and where you
settled and how you know you moved halfway around the
world and then started doing movies Because I know lots

(10:51):
of people are like, how did this happen? How did
she get here? I'm always curious where everyone comes from,
the same question, how did I get here? Uh? Yeah,
I am so. I was born in Israel, um uh
in Jerusalem, but my mom was American, so I was

(11:11):
born like I'm a natural born citizen or I was
born naturalized so UM. I was brought up speaking English
and Hebrew, and at three we moved back to the US.
UM uh and my so, my mom's family is Jewish
American and had been here for you know, several generations

(11:34):
back her her grandparents were immigrants from like Russia, Austria, Poland,
UM fleeing like programs and you know the turn of
the UH. I guess turn of the twentieth century. I
guess like end of eighteen hundreds, beginning of nineteen hundreds
and um, so they had been here for a while.

(11:56):
UM like Brooklyn immigrant UM families. And my grandma was
from Maryland and then my grandfather was from Brooklyn and
they moved to Ohio. So my mom's Cincinnati so like
I feel very Cincinnati roots. UM. And then my father
is Israeli and his parents immigrated from Poland and Romania

(12:19):
during World War Two and their families UM my, my
grandfather's family perished in the Holocaust except for him and
two of his brothers who made it to what was
then Palestine, UM and then became Israel and UM and UM.
And then my parents immigrated in you know, when I

(12:41):
was three years old, and I grew up in the US,
and when I was like a kid, I was acting
in like dancing and singing in local kind of stuff.
And then, um, and then I begged my parents A
lot of kids. We moved to Long Island when I
was nine, Um, and a lot of kids went to
school with auditioned for like commercials and TV shows. And

(13:04):
then I was like, I want to do that. I
want to do that, and kind of begged my parents
and and they let me. And then um, yeah, I
started working when I was like ten years old, in
my first movie at eleven, The Professional Yes, iconic, Yes,
it's a It was a very lucky first, first kind

(13:25):
of big job to get did you because you started
so young, did you then ever trained professionally or do
you feel like you were learning in real time on sets?
I was definitely learning as I worked, which I think

(13:46):
was a lucky way to get into it, because you
can to be careful. I think when you're if you're
like studying, um, I feel like you can learn like
bad habits at on with the good ones and sometimes
just happening, like access to watching people who are really
amazing is like the best kind of school. Just kind

(14:09):
of seeing how they work and how they prepare and
what they do and a scene, and um, that's kind
of the best. I don't know what about you did
you did you like study like study study or did
you just start working? It was also accidental for me.
I was dead set on being a hurt surgeon. And
then I had an arts requirement in school and I

(14:30):
had to do a play and I was pissed. And
one of my still best friends from junior high in
high school was like a true blue theater kid, like
singing in falsetto through the halls at school, and I
was like, we're best friends, but we are not the same.
Like a theater is just not for me. And then
I did a play and realized that it was literature

(14:52):
come to life. And so then I I went full
bore into theater as my you know, four year high
school extracurricular passion. And then told my parents, uh, you
know my dad who is an immigrant, but as an artist,
but there's still that mentality of like you could be
a doctor or a lawyer, or a lawyer or a doctor,
like really specific. That's more my grandfather on my mom's side.

(15:16):
But um, I said, I was going to go to
theater school, and my parents were just like, fuck, you know,
what are we doing? Um? And the irony is that
I went to a program, and to your point, I
felt like I was just learning to be self conscious
about my natural choices or instincts, and so I transferred
out of the program and studied journalism and political science instead. Wow, awesome,

(15:41):
which you know, I it's funny that you and I
have connected over this year, and I'm like, there's no
there's no accident to me that we're becoming friends because
I'm like, oh, you went to Harvard and studied psychology.
You're exactly my kind of person. Yeah, it's like it's
it's funny. It's like sometimes with acting, it's really one
of those things it's like not necessarily good to like

(16:04):
learn it. Really like there's probably there's a few really
amazing teachers, I think, and then um, and then a
lot of other people can kind of take you, lead
you astray, and it's it's kind of best to develop
yourself as like a human and it's fulfil your interests
and be empathetic as a human. And yeah, I'm curious

(16:24):
for you though, because you were I mean, by the
time we all go to college, you were a movie star.
You weren't like a working actor. You were a movie star.
And I think about, you know, starting to work at eighteen,
and I was going to classes and going to auditions
and you know, doing this kind of parallel path. And

(16:46):
I wonder for you, was it was it complicated to
make the decision to slow down or or perhaps reduce
the amount of space in your life for career opportunities
to go and pursue a degree. Was was that complex? No?

(17:06):
I think it was kind of a continuation of what
I'd been doing because my parents never let me miss
school for um work, so I was only working in
the summers anyway, and so I just continued that through college. UM.
And it actually made it luckier. I think that I
had already kind of established myself because I was able

(17:26):
to be like, oh, I want to do this, will
you wait for summertime? And then they would like make
it work in my dates, which was very, very lucky.
So I got to like just be in school um.
And also I mean I was lucky that like there
wasn't really like social media when I went to school.
I mean Facebook started while I was at school, when

(17:49):
I was a senior and Zuckerberg was a freshman. It
started like at Harvard Um and like, you know, I
didn't get on it. Like no one, no one I knew,
was really on it. It was kind of like a
I don't know, seeing like who is hot kind of thing.
It is cool, it's like not um what it is
now shocker a major company initially rooted in misogyny. Who

(18:13):
would think exactly? So? Um? So, I think it was
lucky that, like, you know, I was able to just
kind of do my thing and you know, as normally
as possible observed. Yeah, and people were pretty you know,
everyone else was also kind of doing their thing, and

(18:34):
a lot of people were very um like, everyone there
was so accomplished that it was kind of like I
always felt like I was like, oh, the dumb actress.
It's like in the class like I felt like, you know,
always having to prove myself in that way because, um,
I don't know. I felt like all my peers were
kind of it's so incredible in their own um rights.

(18:59):
It's got to be any though, because there's there's such
a tendency in society, for whatever reason, to treat artists
a little differently. And I think, especially in this newly
transparent world of social media and political activism, there's a
lot of you know, stick to acting. And I imagine

(19:21):
that makes you as crazy as it makes me, because
I think about you know, education in pursuit and the
work and and the the underground work that we do
a lot of you know, in these rooms full of
activists and policymakers, and and it's funny to think that
almost in reverse, at the time, you felt like you
needed to prove to people that you know, you deserve

(19:45):
to take up space in that room. Oh yeah, I
mean I think that like stick to acting or like,
oh you're an actress, you know, like that's like knowing,
like like what that says about you and what that
means about you, about whether you know, the assumptions and stereotypes.
I think UM definitely affected me a lot, even until

(20:06):
I mean it was really recently. Like what affected me
so much was um Monica Ramirez, who UM I met
through tends Up, who is so incredible. Um She she
said that like this silencing that goes on with farm

(20:26):
worker women is the same that's going on with Hollywood.
Like they tell the farm worker women like shut up,
nobody cares about you and um, like and they tell
the the like because you're like, you know, in the shadows,
and like they tell the actresses like, shut up, nobody
cares about you, like your privilege, like because you cares,

(20:49):
you know, And it's the same silencing that happens um.
And I found that really empowering because it was the
first time I recognized that it's like, oh, that's that's
not true, Like that's a form of telling us that
our voices don't matter. And it's like just a different,
a different flavor of telling women what their voices don't matter,

(21:12):
and of course our voices like and of course politically
people say that to actors as well. It's not like
female specific, but it's again like of course we can
say what. You don't have to listen, no one has to,
like you're welcome to like change the channel or whatever.
But like, of course everyone has a right to speak

(21:34):
their their voice in their hearts. Well. And I think
something that you have talked a lot about that really
resonates with me is the fact that art is inherently political,
that creating spaces to share someone's story and create catharsis
for a character and empathy from an audience that is

(21:55):
political and sports are political. You think about what Jackie
Robinson had to go through to play baseball. You know,
we artists and athletes have actually often modeled cultural change
before political policy has caught up. And I don't think
we should have to stop doing that. No, the only

(22:17):
reason people want to stop it is to diminish any
power that we have in in that because of course,
like we admire, like I admire athletes, I admire um,
you know, artists, and I want to hear what they say.
And I feel like you're right, like so many historically
have been have been heroes. So um, yeah, it's it's

(22:40):
it's a tired complaint, I think is the in the
yeah and and and I think there is this enormous
thing of empathy. Um that you know, whether we're watching
someone play in a game, like an athlete, we're putting
ourselves in their places in a way, and certainly when
we're watching someone in a movie, we're feeling their feelings,

(23:02):
like we were excited when someone scores a goal, or
we're excited when you know, um, someone gets gets their
love interest that they're they've been trying to Chase in
a movie, like we feel with them and that's basic
practice of empathy, which is um so essential to just

(23:22):
us practicing to be good humans. How do you think
about activism in terms perhaps because of the empathy that
we not only are trained to do, but I think

(23:44):
are naturally inclined to feel. Um, I think about it
for so many artists. I think about the places we
moved to and they become our homes away from home,
the cruise that we work alongside. That are all these
giant crews of union workers. By the way, So when
people ask me why as an actor, I'm advocating for
union workers, and because those are my people, that that's why. Um.

(24:09):
I wonder how do you sort of see those things,
you know, going hand in hand because you also focus
on so many issues, whether their rights, UM, around issues
like gender violence or discrimination, whether it's about the environment, um,
whether you know you're stepping in to talk about children's

(24:32):
education and I can't wait to talk about your book, Like,
there's there's so many spaces that you step into. Do
you feel do you feel like they're all really tethered together? Absolutely?
I Mean I've always put pressure on myself to try
and like focus it because I feel like, oh, you
can always be more effective if you're like just really

(24:55):
focusing on one thing. But I've never really been able
to bring myself to because neither human. Like I care
about lots of different things, and like I don't want
to like, you know, not talk about women's issues because
I'm focusing on animal issues, or I don't want to

(25:16):
do talk about the environment and then not talk about
criminal justice reform. Like I think that, um, I care
about all these things. I think most people care about
all of these things. I don't think that like we
can siphon off pieces of ourselves and still be authentic.
And so as much as I always am like, oh,
you know, you'd really be more effective natally if you

(25:37):
just like could just pick pick a lame you know, UM,
I do think that, um, all of them are reflective
of things I care about, and also I think they
are all interconnected. I mean, racial justice is environmental justice,
is gender justice is like it's all the same, it's
all the same route of like, let us have empathy

(26:02):
for humans as humans first and our planet as like
a home for humans that needs to be protected and
a home for lots of other creatures as well. That
needs to be And it's interesting to me that, especially
in terms of gender justice and environmental justice, we refer
to the planet as female. We talk about our mother Earth,

(26:27):
and we treat her like shit, and we treat women
so terribly and and there's an entire swath of people
who believe that women's only purpose on Earth is to
serve as an incubator. And we treat the planet almost
in the same way. No, no, no, absolutely, And I
mean and even animals, like you know, uh, do you

(26:49):
think when when you're treating animals also the whole thing
is the same way, which I guess is you're talking
about the planet. Obviously animals are part of that. But um,
it's it's an lodative model that is like, oh, how
can we use these to get the you know, get
stuff And and it's also related to like consumerism in capitalism.

(27:12):
It's all like one large um intersecting web of um.
And and it is true. I always think it's like
a disservice to UM, to the planet to be called
mother Earth, Like if we called it father Earth, we'd
probably be like a lot nicer to it. Unfortunately, UM,

(27:37):
I wish rather that we could just change our perception
of mother and women, but I think that it would
probably be a shorter route to just call it father Earth, um,
to actual changing the way we treat our environment. When
we think about, you know, standing up for the planet
and how interconnected that is to standing up for women.

(27:59):
And and you referenced the plight of female farm workers earlier,
and that was such an inception point, you know, when
when everyone involved, you know, both of us included signed
the original Times Up letter, and and there was a
letter from the Female farm Workers Union. There was really
a call to action to honor that women experience oppression

(28:22):
and discrimination and harassment and assault at every end of
the spectrum and in the space between. And you have
been such a champion for Time's Up and such an
incredible leader and something. Yeah, I'm always like that, that girl,

(28:42):
But there was a lot of I've been I've been
like so just like bolstered by seeing like hundreds of
women who I'm just like at every turn there's someone
incredible who has completely changed the way I framed the
world and see the world by the things they say
himself included, um, and I'm I don't know, it's it

(29:04):
is it is like a new feeling of community, um
that I've found in my life, um unexpectedly, like you know,
as an adult, you don't really expect to like make
new friends by new communities and um and and it's
really been an incredible, like life changer. Yeah, I've found

(29:25):
that the community I cherish most really has come from
being in spaces doing work like this. You know, I
have a couple of friends I grew up with who
I adore and like my god, will take each other's
embarrassing stories and photos to the grave. But there there
has really been you know a sense of establishing a

(29:47):
place and roots in in the earth and in society
out of for me that I've found out of the
friends I've made doing advocacy work. Yeah. No, absolutely, there's
such a sense of um inspiration and like purpose um

(30:08):
by getting to see people committed to really just like
helping people and doing good and doing it together and
working together and also modeling like the kind of people
the kind of person I want to be. Like I
look around when I'm like I don't know what I
should do or what am I doing with my life,

(30:29):
and I'll look to my right and my left and
like you know, see these incredible, incredible people doing incredible things,
and I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna just like follow that
right now while I need like, you know, some guidance
and I'm going to like go there and this makes sense,
and um, oh that's possible, Like even just seeing what's possible,
I think, um, by seeing like how much people can

(30:54):
take on to like so many of the actresses I've
met through Times Up, actresses and directors and producers and
entrepreneurs and writers and activists and like organized, um, you know,
organized so many of these movements that we've we've seen

(31:15):
in our mothers and you know, like and you're just like, oh,
it's possible. Like I think that's that's extraordinary and and
so helpful just too when you see someone doing it. Yeah,
I feel that too, And it reminds me that if
we do it, you know, in consort with each other,
it's more of a relay and we can pass more

(31:37):
batons around to accomplish more. And that that's been a
really inspiring, you know kind of learning by doing. I'm curious,
you know when you think about Time's Up, because I
had my own versions of this experience where sure there
were things I knew I had gone through that were bad,

(31:59):
but there was a lot that I that I had
to come to terms with that I've been almost trained
to ignore because it was easier to exist outside of
the four walls of my own house if I could
just keep moving forward. And you talked about how when
the Me Too movement first took off, you said, I

(32:19):
don't think I have a story to share, and then
later you said, I realized I have a hundred stories
to share. I've been, you know, conditioned to accept that
kind of behavior as normal this far into movement making,
how do you think we speed up the work of
undoing decades of misogyny and and underrepresentation and sexism, you

(32:44):
know in our industry and really for women everywhere. Yeah,
I think it's it's an enormous question, I um And
I think that so many people are hitting it from
different angles. And I think that that's what I don't
think there's it's like a one thing is gonna change it.
It's so many different um uh, so many different methods,

(33:06):
and um uh, I think so much has been done
already just being making people aware of course, um Toronto
Berks movement like really and and all of the incredible
brave people who came forward where but definitely set the
foundation for like collectively making everyone aware that this was happening,

(33:31):
which is like the first step. And then of course
people are putting in different UM, different safety measures, different
UM which is still you know, not quite there, but
I think people are aware that it needs to be
there at least is step one UM. And and then

(33:53):
I think also just understanding the balance, like the relationship
between the balance of power and the abuse that happens
has been really well linked UM, so that people are
understanding that having more UM more representative cruise, having more

(34:14):
representative workplaces reflective of the world, which is not just
a gender thing, but it is also you know, on
every level of categorization that we put people into that
when we have our workplaces reflect the world more that
the balance and at every level of power UM, the

(34:34):
workplace has become more safe for all people because, yeah,
the power and balance is like I think that was
one of the most shocking things to me that I
had taken for granted was that I was really usually
the only female on set except for like usually hair
and makeup and wardrobe UM, and I was completely used

(35:00):
to that and took it for like as a normal
um and that that I was like, whoa that was?
I had like internalized that that was okay UM and
had become comfortable with it or had like figured out
coping mechanisms of being comfortable with it, and that is
was completely um like an internal change for sure. Yeah.

(35:25):
I had to do much of the same and and
realize the same that we're often the only ones and
so then we have to learn to take a joke
or ignore a comment so that we can just continue
to do our jobs. And and most of the men
in the room don't experience that, so they don't know
what it feels like. And this idea that as we

(35:48):
create more diverse and inclusive spaces, there will be more
people who are aware of different things simply and and
and that changes the culture that those exciting. And I
think there's an assumption and in our world off often
that it's you know, super progressive, and it's not. You know,

(36:11):
I I loved I was cheering at home when you
were announcing was it the nominees for the Academy Awards
and you said, and the all male nominees are Yeah,
it was the globes and it was just so good
and and and it highlighted that, you know, regardless of
the incredible work that women directors are doing in our industry,

(36:34):
they're often just not even considered worthy of being in
those rooms. And you know, you showed up with names
of directors sewn on to the you know, the cape
of your dress. And I know that there's people out
there who think, like, what's the point of making a
political statement on a red carpet? And it's like, because
you're talking about it now, that's the point, Like, yeah, yeah,

(36:56):
I mean that's the thing is that I think we
always have to be aware of what we can do
to bring it into conversation and um, and those hopefully
do make culture shifts, you know, hopefully does put pressure
on and yeah, and it's been incredible to get to see,

(37:17):
you know, peers of ours speak so eloquently and bring
things up and bring things to light, whether you know,
remember um, uh Michelle Williams talking about pay disparity or um,
you know them who was it who said the inclusion
writer for the first time And everyone was like, oh

(37:38):
my god, it was Um Francis mcdormant, of course was
Francis mcdormant, who mentioned the inclusion writer when she I mean,
those are moments that a lot of people are watching,
a lot of people are talking about, and when they
bring those things out into light, it creates, it does

(37:58):
shift culture whole fully, and I love it. There are
so many ways to spend the privilege of a platform
and to carry other women and other people into the
rooms that we have fought our way into. And I
I think there's this exciting recipe at work of you know, revolution, policy, advocacy, activism, education,

(38:25):
because even even just letting people know how pervasive a
problem is or or who gets left out of a space,
that kind of awareness begins to create a shift. Oh yeah,
I mean one of the things that was really um
so interesting to me was that I like learned about

(38:45):
three times up was we of course we're talking about
paid disparities and treatment and women, and they were like, well,
there's also certain professions they call it, like I think
they call it occupational segregation, where there are certain professions
that are like solely women are almost only women, like
teachers or like you know, nurses or um and and

(39:09):
those are the ones that of course they're the whole
profession is just paid less than they would be if
they were more um you know, gender integrated um and
it's um uh. And that it was really eye opening
to me because I was like, oh, yeah, of course
these you know, women's jobs are typically stereotypically women's jobs

(39:32):
are so undervalued. M caregiving, Like you know, the people
who that are It's like if you asked me who's
the most important person in your life, it's like that
you that you employ. It's like, obviously the people who
care for my children and their teachers, you know, their
nannies and their teachers, and um, you're like, and so

(39:57):
why are they paid so differently than like my lawyer,
my accountant, who they're great. I appreciate their work, but like,
you know, it's it's definitely we we undervalue things that
are like stereotypically female female jobs so much, and hopefully
I think this pandemic um also gives us understanding of

(40:20):
that because so many of our essential workers that are
like overwhelmingly female. Yeah, it's so cool to think about
it that way. One of the things that geeked me
out that you did, which is so relevant to this conversation,
is you even used working with Marvel to create a

(40:41):
whole space for young women in STEM and getting women
into STEM education is something that I'm so passionate about.
And it was so cool. I was I can't I
honestly couldn't believe I hadn't heard about it. I was like,
she wrote a contest for Reeve in science. How did
I not know this? How how did you approach, you know,

(41:02):
a studio that was that large and say this is
what I want to do with this story. Well they
were actually really incredible, and um, I think they even
generated the idea. UM. I wanted to do Thor initially
because I was like, it will be amazing to have

(41:23):
a character who's a female astrophysicist in the center of
this big Marvel movie that you know, like everyone goes
to see UM And so that was definitely the draw
for me making it. UM. And then they they brought
it to UM, they said, would you be interested in
in doing this? So, UM, I have to give them

(41:44):
their their do UM. I think the Marvel guys are
like very I shouldn't just say guys, there's there's some
women there too. The Marvel people are are quite um,
genuinely committed to to um, you know, being being positive

(42:05):
influences in the world and um have done, have done
some cool things. And that was that was a really
exciting one because I was like definitely a science nerd
in high school and like entering the competitions and stuff.
So I'm super interested in how you got, um, how
you were wanting to be a heart surgeon. That's so specific,
Like what what was that from? I don't really know.

(42:29):
I remember so my favorite biology teacher was my teacher, Mr. Hallman,
and we did uh it's so hard you know where
where add because he abrout the environment and sort of
medical science research research overlap, UM and knowing how hard
you work, I'm like, this is the worst story I
could tell you, but it was eye opening for me
as a kid. Um. It was the year that we

(42:51):
did the dissections of fetal pigs in school and learning
about the systems. I asked my favorite professor if he
would stay with me through lunch and we could go
onto the next sort of lesson and he was like,
you are a weird, nerdy kid, but okay, And and

(43:12):
so there is a small group of us who stayed
and and I really wanted to understand I'd always been
fascinated with medicine and especially pediatric science. You know, how
how do these doctors learn to work on miniature humans?
And I just got obsessed with this idea that you
could repair a heart, you know, whether for a baby

(43:34):
or a child or an adult, how transplants work. And
the irony is that I'm in pre COVID. Now I'm
just sort of sitting at home waiting for this to
be over. But I was in training to go play
a cardiovascular surgeon. When I was scrubbing in in the
o R in real heart surgeries, people, patients and their
families were giving me permission to be there with these

(43:57):
incredible teams of doctors, and it's just the it's the
coolest thing in my life. I'm I'm so obsessed and
so in a way, I feel like it's a really amazing. Yeah,
it's like this full circle moment where that dream. Have
you done that yet? Are you doing it? After? I
think we're gonna We're now looking at March. Okay, so

(44:21):
I think I can. I know, I think I get
to start going back into the o R in January.
So fingers crossed him. Thrilled, thrilled, um, But yeah, It's
interesting how things that we loved as kids really can
stay with us for our whole lives. And that is
actually the most perfect moment to talk to you about

(44:43):
this book, which I literally have sitting at my desk.
I love this, Thank you, I appreciate that. How did
how did this come up? Because the idea that you've
reimagined these classic children's fables, it's just so cool to me.
And and I wonder where they your favorite stories as

(45:04):
a kid, or are they now your kid's favorite stories?
Where did this all come from? Well? I did love
the fables and and sort of those classics, all those
classic stories growing up, and I didn't really pay attention
to the fact that all the characters we're male standardly um,

(45:25):
until I started reading to my little girl, who's no.
Three and a half, and I realized that that was
problematic in terms of who were saying are valued stories
to be hearing? Um, And also just in a way
of like reflecting the world that, um, you know, we're
we're telling boys and girls that you know, first of all,

(45:50):
that there's more males in the world than females because
they're animals, and you're obviously not reflecting the animal kingdom
accurately UM. And then also that UM, you know that
that whose hearts and minds should we be imagining because
that's what storytelling is. Is you're telling kids to relate

(46:10):
to characters, to feel for them, to be excited when
the tortoise wins the race, and you know, to be
scared for the pigs when the wolf comes to blow
their house down. And so we're feeling for these characters.
And if you're asking all children to relate to mainly
male characters, what does that do for them? What is

(46:32):
that instill in them? Because it feels very early with
like you know, toddler age, early reader age to actually
talk about like gender issues. But I think the way
we just build their world through the stories we tell
UM needs to have those basic um, basic values in

(46:52):
them that we're reflecting everyone and not just one particular
group that we're like, you should really pay attention to
these characters and how they feel, UM. And so I
wanted to keep the stories relatively classic because I don't
think you need to throw away these things that have
been passed down from generation to generation. Necessarily if the

(47:13):
values of the story feel relevant still UM, but just
make them reflect the world. So um, I redid the
tortoise and the hair with three little pigs and country
mass and city mouse, and um updated them just to
really reflect the world we live in. I love that.
It really makes me think to your point that yes,

(47:38):
it's an early age to you know, sit your kids
down and teach them about gender studies and who law
assynem was, but that there is a real reality we
need to consider about their brain development and the patterning
that they're learning. And if kids are only hearing stories
about one kind of person, then they're learning, whether it's

(47:58):
overly or subconscious, see that there's only one kind of
person who deserves a seat at the table. And when
we as adults and as women are bringing our experiences
into the room and talking about how we need to
build bigger tables that too many people have been left out,
this feels like a really important way to start. Oh absolutely,

(48:19):
And I think that, um, you know, when we're all
kind of um practiced overpracticed and imagining male minds, which
is what when you're trying to empathize with male characters,
whether it's in a film or TV or UM or books. Um,

(48:40):
you know, we first of all have a harder time
understanding how does the female think? UM. So for boys,
I think you know, that can be problematic if they're
not as as as as practiced at being like, how
does this make her feel? What do I when I
do this? How does she react? What is she feeling inside?
She comfortable? Is she happy? And and and then girls often

(49:03):
have a problem recognizing their own feelings because they're so
focused on does he think I'm nice? Does he think
I'm pretty? Does he think I'm sweet? Does he find
me annoying? What does he want to have for dinner?
What does he you know? And the overpracticing effects all
all people. I think, UM, when we're overpracticing imagining male

(49:23):
minds UM, and so I think just like simply being
aware like of that UM and simply just making characters
reflective of you know, the animal kingdom, human reality UM,
that real life gender balance UM. I think is just

(49:46):
the earliest way to introduce it to kids. M I
love that, and it it feels across the sort of
spectrum of how we build more inclusive face says I. I
I feel like there's a huge tie between the book
and Angel City. I want to talk about our team,

(50:08):
the Angel City Football Club, I mean you you did
the greatest service truly for me, because I've been shouting
from what felt like the rooftops forever that you know,
l A needed a women's team. Uh. And I'm the
crazy person who will get up at four in the
morning to watch our our women in the World Cup.
And I'm just like an utter lunatic over a soccer game.

(50:32):
And you took that feeling and then did your incredible
what you're incredibly gifted at and followed through and helped
organize a team, tell the audience everything. Well, thank you
for being such a an awesome partner in this venture,

(50:55):
which we're all so excited about. Um And it really
did have similar our origins, I have to say, because
a lot of it is figuring out how to what
I can present my son honestly, Like we talk all
the time about what we need to provide girls. But

(51:15):
I'm like, girls know their power. Like I it's wonderful
for us to like have our our heroes and our
you know, and be celebrated. But like, and obviously this
is for the girls, Like obviously, but I think the
undersung part of it is like, how are we going
to change the boys? And when I saw my son

(51:39):
watching the Women's World Cup and being so excited about
the female players in the same way he was excited
about the male players and not really noticing, like he
was just like, Oh, these are awesome soccer players. I
was like, Oh, this is a key to shifting culture,
because like he and his friends would go into the

(52:03):
Nike store and be like, you, guys, wear's the Megan
Rapino shirt and they wouldn't have it there, and they
wanted to wear Rapino shirts. They wanted to wear out
Its Morgan shirts, and the same way they want to
wear like messy shirts and Ronaldo's shirts. And it was
just like, Oh, this is how we get boys to
grow up looking at women and females as humans and

(52:27):
looking at their accomplishments and their talents before seeing them
in like any sort of categorized way. And it was
just so powerful to me. So that I think is
really similar to the impetus for for doing the book too,
because for the book was also I was like, I
don't want to make a feminist book for girls, like

(52:48):
we get it so much and the girls are getting
in so much. It's the boys who, like, we need
the next generation of boys to be different, and so
we need to put it in all the books, the
books that are aimed at boys, books that are aimed
at like all kids. Um, along with of course the
girls stuff like help girls of course, like feel even

(53:08):
stronger in in their self knowledge and in their self
um you know, belief. Um. It was just an incredible
group that came together, Julie Erman who's leading us in,
Kara Norman who is another founder alongside um, alongside me, Um,
we have Yeah, I been working hard. And then Alexis

(53:30):
Orhanian and Serena Williams came on and that was just
like the real turning point for us because they're so
incredible and are so deeply um rooted in this. And
then we just like, now we have the coolest group
of people, like all of these amazing athletes, with all
these former U S national team players and Billy Jing

(53:50):
King and Abby Wamback Glennon and like, and then of
course all the actresses who have been so amazing Jazz
Testing and America a for and Ego Loongorians and Duba
and Jenn Garner. It's like and yourself and I mean
this is like it's just a dream team of people
and I couldn't be more excited for when we watch

(54:15):
I can't wait. I can't wait. And it's funny because
you know, talking about all of these things that you're
working on and doing and advocating for it, it takes
me back to what you were saying earlier when you
look around in those rooms and think, how are these
women doing it all? I think that when I hear
you talk about everything you're working on, I'm like, how

(54:36):
are you managing to do this and make, you know,
a movie in Australia and be a mom to two
kids and you know you have so much going on?
How do you feel like you have learned to you know,
prioritize time. Yeah. I mean, first of all, i feel
like I've reiterate that I've gotten so much energy from

(55:01):
watching peers, like whether it's America or yourself or Eva
or Carrie Washington or Reese Witherspoon, like looking around and
I'm like, they're all doing so much and it inspires
me like every second because I'm like, Okay, it's possible,
it's possible, it's possible. Um. And then the second thing,

(55:24):
I think, like the biggest thing is just um uh
being okay. With like not doing everything really well because
like I think you have to kind of like be
okay with like okay, good enough sometimes like with them.
You know. That's kind of my like with being a mom.

(55:44):
It's like you get if you get too perfectionists, like
you just have to Like I think every mother, working
mother knows it that you're like you've got to like
really just get it done, like done, not perfect. Has
to be like the mantra. And then if you do that,

(56:04):
it's like all this time kind of opens up. And
I've also started waking up very early and going to
sleep very early, which is like changed my life. I've
always been like a night person my whole life, and
I've I've started waking up at like five because those
are the hours that like are really mine, mine alone.

(56:28):
I'm in the attempt in transition from going to from
being a night person to being an early morning person,
and it's killing me. It's really hard. You really have
to be committed to going to sleep at like nine
or nine thirty, which is like so lame. It's like
kind of an admission that you're like for me that

(56:49):
I'm like, okay, I'm old. I'm like it's here. I'm
going to sleep at nine and it feels great, you know,
But it also feels great to be like have a
couple of hours in the morning before anyone wakes up
where you can do anything, you know, um, because it's
definitely important to have time for yourself. I love that. Okay,

(57:13):
I'm gonna ask you my favorite thing that I ask
everybody who comes on the show. The podcast is called
work in progress really because it's meant to be an
exploration of what we're figuring out and where we're taking
it all. So what for you and your life feels
like a work in progress right now? Oh? My goodness,
everything everything, um uh let me be more specific. UM.

(57:40):
I mean there's some very like tangible things that are
like not so um deep um, Like I'm actually I'm
trying to I'm starting this like fitness thing for thor,
which is big work in progress because yeah, I'm right

(58:01):
at the beginning. So hopefully next time you see me,
I'll be like jacked and um. More like internally, um,
it's definitely um um, I think figuring out how to um.

(58:22):
I think really be like focused and attentive with my kids.
I think when you are doing a lot I think
it's really UM. I think it's like the most crucial
thing for children, UM to have like very like blinders
on intense focus and when you're doing a lot that's

(58:43):
really hard. Like I think that's another thing of like
working moms as we there's like always like a running
list of everything you have to get done in your
head and UM, so definitely trying to figure out how
to um to do that. And that's actually a line
in the fables that I think I wrote almost to

(59:05):
myself so that I would read it over and over again.
UM is in the tortoise and the hair when it's
like honey moved slowly and it is the sweetest. A
life lived attentively is the completest. And that was like
that was like for myself almost more than anything. I
was like, I need to really, you know, look my
kids in the eye and be a hundred percent with them, um,

(59:29):
which happens almost none of the time, I think, I
have to admit, but is an intention and UM, you know,
definitely part of the part of the work. I had
a I had a SWAT team leader on a job
who was teaching us to do really insane things, and
he would always say slow as fast. Yes, that you know,

(59:52):
this slow intentional movement was actually a way to get
into a space and assess it safely. H far more
than running into any room. And I think about that
at least one today. I hear his voice in my head.
Slow is fast, and I just put put that thing down,
calm down for one moment. That's Yeah, that's a really

(01:00:14):
good Um, that's a really good like mantra. I will
hold on to that. Yeah, you you reminded me, And
now I'm I'm going to commit because you've inspired me
to try to commit again. No, but it really, I
mean I feel like the longer rum around, the more
I realized like that, it's like that is love is

(01:00:35):
like attentiveness, Like that is really more than anything. It's
like a series of small acts of intense attention and
paying attention. Um and and it's and it's not easy.
It's like needs to be cultivated and and uh not love.

(01:00:57):
Love is love is easy. Attention is especially in the
times we live in, I think, needs to be cultivated. Yeah, almost,
love the feeling is easy to have, but love as
an action ver herb has to has to be chosen repeatedly.
Absolutely mm hmm, absolutely, thank you. This has been so fun.

(01:01:23):
I know. Let's do this again more often with wine
guys exactly. This show is executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush,
and sim Sarna. Our associate producer is Kate Linlee, our
editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by

(01:01:45):
Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is
brought to you by clin Brilliant Anatomy m