Work in Progress: O-T Fagbenle

Triple threat, O-T Fagbenle, has had viewers glued to their screens with his portrayal of Luke on Hulu's "The Handmaid's Tale," which is coming to its conclusion after six intense seasons!

The actor, writer, and director joins Sophia to talk about the final season of the Emmy-winning show, including his evolving relationship with his on-screen wife, June Osborne — aka Elisabeth Moss — his audition for the role, and his feelings about the show ending. Plus, a deep dive into AI, a conversation about politics and community, and O-T's heartfelt work in progress.

The final episode of "The Handmaid's Tale" will drop on Tuesday, May 27, on Hulu.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,
Welcome back to Work in Progress. Today we are joined
by an actor that I am such an enormous fan of.

(00:22):
You likely know him from his award nominated role as
Luke Bankole in Hulu's groundbreaking drama series The Handmaid's Tale.
I was obsessed with his character in Presumed Innocent alongside
Jake jillen Hal, Ruth Naga, and Peter Sarsgard. And he
was absolutely hysterical in Loot alongside Maya Rudolph, and amazing

(00:45):
on Netflix's No Good Deed with Lisa Krudiro, Ray Romano
and Dennis Leary. Ot is here today to talk about art,
the last season of The Handmaid's Tale, politics, parenthood, and
everything in between. And I'm going to have to pick
his brain about what it was like to play former
President Barack Obama. Let's jump in with Otfat Bentley.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
How we baseball capt it?

Speaker 1 (01:20):
We sure did? I love it? I should have thrown
my Dodgers hat on.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Someone closes a gift.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
I don't know anything about baseball.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Baseball for me is really more about going with friends
and like getting the hot dog in the beer and
having the experience.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm not good in.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
Public, like big lots of people, like lots of people
around it. I'm not I'm such a humbody. I never
I never really get out very much. I'm a big
basketball fan, and even like every now and then, like
some opportunity to go watch your game will come up
and I'll be like, I'm good in my garage right now.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, I mean you can.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
You can see it better on ESPN. Anyway, this is
what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
I don't even know what the advance.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
I ate uncomfortable seats, you don't get to zee all
the angles, I don't know where my glasses I'm squinting.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Well, what we're going to have to do at some
point is get you to a Liberty game so you
can see the Girlies play, because Barclay Stadium for that
team is the most fun I ever have in a crowd.
And I don't love a crowd either.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay, I have not seen the Liberty play, but I've
seen plenty of ladies basketball.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
My sister's in the w tell me, yeah, yeah, she's Oh.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
My goodness, it's not an overstatement to say that she
is the most decorated British basketball player man or woman
of all time.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Wow. I thought I was going to ask you all
about your shows today, and here I am being like,
what's what's it like to be the brother of one
of the goats? How does that feel?

Speaker 2 (02:54):
It feels great.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
I remember the first time because we I cover a
basketball in family, and I remember the first time, like
she took me down into the post and like, you know,
like gating the old elbow and like made him lay
up on me. And I was like, oh, okay, when
your little sister can dunk, it's a great thing.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah. We used to play outdoor basketball lot and we
I take it.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
You know, we go down to the outdoor court and
there one day in particular, I remember that she was
wearing like a summer dress and she was just dominating
and it was just like watching these guys have to
little bit of someone in a dress taking him down
and like post.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Moves on him. It's one of the happiest moments in
my life.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Oh my god, what a vibe. Yeah, that feels like
the next you know, Nike Adidas commercial getting ready to go.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh yeah, that's true. I should pitch it right one.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
I'm like, I'll direct that all right, this is actually
a perfect segue. Well, first, where are you today? Where
are you in the world right now?

Speaker 3 (03:53):
I'm in my garage in la in yeah, West Adams.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Okay, cool? Oh, I love it. Yeah, I went to
USC so I'll where then I grew it. Well, I
went for a BFA in theater, all right, and everyone
was great, by the way, But I you know, at eighteen,
I think I just sort of thought, is all we're
going to do? Sit around and question our instincts all day?

(04:21):
I think this is really starting to make me a
crazy self conscious person. And so I wound up shifting
and studying journalism and political science at Annenberg Okay. And
I loved it because, in this weird way, what it
did was it took every movie I watched, every play
that I read, and it made me really think about

(04:44):
how does it feel grounded? How does it feel real?
Every one of these stories should be the sort of
story that might be covered on the news one day, right,
like anybody's life can can be looked at like that.
So it gave me this balance that I think I needed.
You're a drama kid too, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well I find drama kid. But basically, yes, I think
probably under any definition.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
I started drama classes when I was around ten and
then and then I was going to go study economics
and politics at college. And then I, like, on a whim,
almost I thought, let me try and see if I
can get to drama school, which is a very unlikely
thing to happen, to be honest, because in England back then,
back in my day, they basically would like audition like

(05:31):
two thousand people and they would take seventeen boys, and
each year at rather they would take like one black
kid like and so yeah, that was the average, and
so the odds one great. Yeah, and so I didn't
expect to get in, and then I did get in,
and I was like, oh, I guess this is now
the root of my life.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
So we almost went we went different ways.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
You started studying theater and w.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
And I did the opposite.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
So yeah, that's so funny. All right. So that's interesting
because I always wonder, you know, I sit across from
somebody like you, and people know your work, they've watched you,
they have relationships with you based on you know, series
or films or theater even and I'm always really curious

(06:18):
if we went back in time, you know, maybe to
that boy that was watching his sister dunk and address
if you got to hang out with yourself when you
were nine or ten years old, now, do you think
you'd see the man you are today and that kid?
Do you think you guys would have so much to
kind of go? Ah, I get it. I see how
you became this person, and you could look at him

(06:39):
and go, holy shit, you were always like this.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
You know what?

Speaker 3 (06:43):
And this is I don't know how many of your
listeners have this, but I don't have a good sense
of myself as a child. I don't have a very
good memory for back then. I have scattered pieces, and
so I feel quite disassociated with my younger self. And
it sounds weird to say, but my relationship with my

(07:03):
younger self is similar to my relationship with my stories
of my granddad before I was born, Like I feel
connected to it. It's part of my history. But I
find it's very untutored to think that's me. I don't
have a strong connection to like there was some kid
who existed and that kid.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Grew to become me.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
But I don't, you know, it's not completely like that,
but it's partly like that. That being said, so, I'm
always curious and hungry to ask I was my mom,
my dad, parents and family and Besina what they remember
of me as a kid. And it seems like it
checks out. It seems like there was no news departure.
There was there was consistency, even though there isn't like

(07:42):
a lot of memory of that consistency.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, I get that. It's funny. I have that conversation
with my family sometimes too. There's there's these sort of
seminal moments that I remember. But then my parents will
ask me about things, and sometimes I feel so bad
when they go, what you don't remember this? And I'm like, no,
I was probably in the backyard chasing a butterfly. I
don't know what I was doing, right, I wasn't. It

(08:07):
wasn't kind of imprinting on me. I think in the
way it might have for an adult who was conscious
of a moment in time or their child's achievement. You know. Now,
I wonder when I look at the kids in my life,
I'm like, what are you going to remember? Are you
going to know that you were so obsessed with this
movie and we had to watch it every night for

(08:27):
seven months? Like or will it just be a memory
in the bag. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah, yeah, exactly a lot of them remember to talk
like you know I have I have a three year
old and a two year.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Old and oh super cute.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
But it is interesting just going, oh, you know what
feels like the majority of my life energy is focused
towards pouring into them and going oh what does this
mean that that you won't remember all these tips in
the part and then you know, like, so what's the
value of this? And you know, kind of like getting
through studies and life that oh yeah, well this all

(09:01):
does go, this all does pay into them, this all
does develop something. It just won't be memories of like
a thousand change diapers and that's.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Weird to think. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
And also, you know when adults say to you like, oh,
you know, I used to change the diaper as a kid.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
There's nothing I find more relevant.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
Than what you used to do for my kids. You know,
it's like, okay, great, next subject. You know so, and
it's going to be like that for them, you know, okay, great,
da dude.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
It's like the thing you would never want to say
to your auntie or your grandfather is like, do you
think about it when you piss. Of course you don't.
Maybies don't think about it, But I think it's so
fascinating what you're saying. You know that the reality that
repetitive affection or encouragement or certain kinds of speech create

(09:54):
safety agency awareness in children. And it's such a trip
to have littles in your life. My partner's kids are
four and almost three, and to watch what they become
based on what they watch, the ways they develop, what
they're conscious of when things kind of hit them. And

(10:17):
then you see that milestone day where a thing you've
repeated a thousand times clicks and then they make this leap.
It's like, I can't believe we were ever that small. Yeah,
and then you look around and go, holy shit, now
we're the grown ups in the room.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
Oh my god, I know the development of consciousness.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
Like one of the things that came to me watching
my kid grow up is that, like, actually, preference is
a huge part of personality. Do I like the blue
of the yellow? Do I like this music? Like dancing
or not dancing? This feel of that food? And actually,
like a lot of what one might call personality is
actually preference, and it's and it's fascinating to me to
see that at six months old, you know, like that

(10:57):
straight noodle is absolutely unacceptable, and I will if I
don't have that, you know, And so where did these
preferences come from? And you know, it goes one of
my big fascinations, of philosophical fascinations is free will and
and what goes to that is choice. Why do we
make the choices we do? And to what extent can
we change the choices we make?

Speaker 2 (11:17):
And stuff?

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, oh that's a nice heavy one. That's a conversation
I love. I'm curious for you. Where do you think
when you kind of reflect on that stuff? You know,
the agency, the choice growing up in a basketball family,
where do you think your agency or desire around performance

(11:39):
came from. Were you a really bookish kid. Did you
love to read and then want to see books come
to life? Or were you watching movies going I'm going
to do that.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
You know.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Again, I don't know a lot of my childhood so
but but I do get some of a sense that
I was a bit of performing keep But I also
come from a family of storytellers. Telling stories is a
big part of our family, and I come from very
both my parents are very demonstrative in the way they
tell sorties.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
So all of that is relatively natural to me.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
But it wasn't always a dream of mine to become
an actor, Like I was going to do economics and politics.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
So and that's eighteen. So up until that age, it
never entered my.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Mind that I would do anything apart from either some
type of economists, politics, sociology that parent that was my interest,
or basketball and unfortunately I wasn't skilled or tall enough
for that one.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
So and so, actually, you know, and it's it's interesting.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
I'm meant, I'm a mentor to some young people, and
it's interesting this idea of like doing what you're passionate about,
and of course, like I really liked that thing, but
it wasn't what I was most passionate about. It was
what I think I was most uniquely best at, and
my passion for it grew as.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
I dedicated more and more of my life to it.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
And so so it's interesting because it kind of came
the other way around to it. I I was I
had some talent, and then because of that talent, I eventually,
about six years in, started applying myself and through dedication
came more passion and passion came dedication in a virtuous circle,
right right.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
It's like it's like when you learn to till soil,
the garden is so much more fruitful. Right.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
Well, I know nothing about goding unfortunately, so.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
I don't know a lot about it. But as as
they do. Now, you know, our devices and our phones
and everything's always listening. So now that I'm beginning to
dig a little deeper past the research I did a
few years ago when I decided I wanted to be
a beekeeper, and I just wanted to know what would
please the bees outside. Now I'm trying to learn more

(13:40):
about how those ecosystems work, and now everything every time
I open any electronic device, it's like, did you know
this interesting fact about coastal Rosemary? Would you like to
learn how to build a vegetable box? And I'm like yes,
but also this is so creepy.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, but you know what I'm what was really mixed
feeling about these kind of like Bess spoke algorithms, because
on one side it's creepy, but on the other side, like.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
If you're gonna give me if commercials.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Are a fact, then don't you I don't want to
watch a come much about some random thing that's not
interesting to me, Like, give me a commercial about something
I'm you know, sometimes I go on someone else's YouTube,
I'm looking for a video and I'm like.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
What is this trash? Like I'm not interested in that?
You know.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
So I'm actually not I'm not too against it. Obviously
at a point it can become like intrusive. But yeah,
if i'm in bees, give me the bee keeping. So wait,
why did you Is it an environmental thing or you
just wanted your own.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Honey, I had always wanted to do it. I think
it came from environmental passion. And you know, I grew
up in LA and I spent most of my childhood
all up and down you know, central California, California coast.
I love the mountains and learning about how to sort

(14:51):
of stand up for nature. It was so important to me.
And then I just sort of knew I had this
weird thing where I was like, when I'm grown up,
I'm going to be a beekeeper. And then my realized, shit,
I'm a grown up, so maybe I should start. And
so I decided to plant the things I knew the
bees would love so that I could work with this
nonprofit in LA that would bring a beehive over. Essentially,

(15:16):
you can sign up so when they have to get
a be a swarm out of like a building or
somebody's backyard or whatever, they'll bring it.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
I'll just throw it in that way. How much space
do you need? What's the minimum amount of space to have.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
You don't need a ton of space. What you need
is they have to go more than three miles from
where they were taken, or they'll go right back. They
have really intense basically like b GPS is perfect. And
so the coolest part of it was I planted this
whole garden. It was my big COVID project. Is stuck

(15:50):
at home? What am I going to do? And one
day the guy's helping me finish these like terraces I
was doing. Run up to the house and they go,
we have to stop. We have to stop. There's a
huge beehive in the base of the woodpile. And now
that we've gotten down there, we see it. We don't
know how long they've been there. We have to call
an exterminator. And I was like, I was like, this

(16:12):
is my field of dreams. I built it and they
came Wow. So we rescued my own bees. Wow, the
not to go for No, it's crazy. And what I
learned is you can only move them up to twenty
four inches a day, because essentially it's like they think
they've come home a little drunk and they can't get
their key in the front door. They're like, wait a second,

(16:34):
this isn't this my house? Oh yeah, this is my house.
But if you move them any more than that, they'll
just start to rebuild the hive right where it was,
Or if you move them more than three miles, it
resets them and they'll stay put.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
We can't get back.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
One of my other one of my interests, which I
wish I was smarter about, is like being intelligence, like
ads intelligence. I feel like the metrics and the way
we kind of like conceive of intelligence just isn't appropriate
for the way bees and ants and but it's just
clear that they have all the hallmarks of what we think,
you know, problem solving and normal situations and like the adaptability,

(17:12):
and it's just I'm just fascinated by it because I
can't bring my head around to properly conceive of how
their intelligence collective intelligence works.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
It's truly incredible and by the way, knowing that you
have a passion for politics, as do I bees are studying.
Bees will teach you so much about how we should live.
They work as such a team and as such a unit,
and their hives are these societies and everybody takes roles.
And I remember, you know, during the fires, not at

(17:45):
the top of this year, but probably three or four
years ago, there was a crazy fire season in LA
that backed up to summer, so it was like over
one hundred degrees out and the bees would line up
on the edge of the hive and flap their wings
to blow colder air inside to cool the hive and
keep the queen safe. And they would take turns, almost

(18:07):
like penguins do in the freezing cold, you know, going
to the outside of the huddle to keep each other warm.
And I was like, wow, they really just know how
to show up for each other emotional.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, that is incredible, My goodness cool.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
And I don't know, maybe maybe it really resonates with
me too, because for us as actors, you know, you're
just one of the many hundreds of people on a set,
right I think special magic.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
I'm the queen bee.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Okay, I kind of got a wake up goal. When
I did my first short film, which is like over
a decade ago now, and I did think the actors
were special in the set.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
I think were consciously or unconsciously. I was just like,
I'm a very important part of this situation.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
And then I made this short film and it really
just humbled me because being a director, all the things
that actors complain about, like being brought in like three
hours before your the scene starts, and you know, and
then all the other people on the set, the focus pullar,
the sound guy, all of these people are.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
As important to me as my actors.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
And yeah, sure my act is super important, but if
you have to wait around, mis director while we wait
for you're can wait around. And it just it really
just kind of like opened my eyes, my little yeah
yeah selfcized to like, oh, there is a bigger picture
out here and you are.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
Just one b in the high that's it. It really
is a hive and it has to function as a system.
And now a word from our sponsors that I really
enjoy and I think you will too. I remember not
necessarily being disillusioned with our job, but on my first show,

(19:57):
which you know, we thought would go two or three years,
and then we did nine seasons like when do you
ever know that's going to happen? In our seventh season,
I started directing okay, and in the most interesting way,
it made the whole show, even though we were seven
years into this place, these characters. It made the whole
thing feel brand new for me. It made me feel

(20:20):
so inspired, so lucky to do what we do it.
It sort of felt like it really expanded my creativity.
I'm envious that you got to do that so early
in your career as a director on a short because
it's just it changes you, I think in the best way.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, it's really interesting.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
I like I'm I think one of the things I
like about life is diynastic, Like I like trying new things.
And I found that there's just lots of stuff that
I'm not good at. You know, I'm not particularly good dancer,
Like I mean a dancefall and have a good time.
But if you want to teach me tap, I like,
I try to learn how to tip it. Just I
just didn't come intuitively. Directing was very intuitive to me.

(21:00):
It was like it was this rare experience that you
get every now in life where you go, oh, my God.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
I really like this. I found the thing I really
like and I.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
Think passion is really the precursors to talent, and so yeah,
it was wonderful for me. My first short film. We
had a budget of fifty dollars. We spent forty dollars
on pizza you gotta feed people, and ten dollars on
a stick to hold a microphone that I borrowed. And yeah,
and it was it was real, real low budget stuff,
but it was. Yeah, it was a real transcendent experience

(21:32):
for me.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
That's so cool. I think about early career stuff and
I read in an article prepping for today, you were
talking about, you know, being thirty and wanting to stop
landing these guest roles and go for these bigger parts,
you know, expanding yourself as an actor. And you told
the story of like, you know, a hundred auditions and

(21:55):
no callbacks, and I was like, honey, oh my god.
It took me right back to my first pilot season,
probably one hundred auditions, you know, running around La panic,
like how do you how do you think now having
the career that you do and having done these amazing
projects that you've been on and reflecting on that early directing.

(22:19):
Do you think that those early experiences helped keep you
focused in a way or do you think you just
had that sort of young person's determination that I think
we all had to have to survive to get here.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
I mean, look, I don't know, really I know how
to answer that. I am a pretty driven person and
I find it hard to be too idle for too long,
and so I'm going to put my energies into something.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
And there is a point where I could give up acting.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
Like where I was like, Okay, well it's just not working,
and I need to be able to be self sufficient
and you know, I've a big bird, and stolen is
not working, and.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
So I give it. You know.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
So there is stuff I could have faced which could
have turned me back, but it would be a pretty
high mounted and so and also I didn't have.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
For most of my career up to that point. When
I turned thirty, I would just do anything.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
In the children's theater I did, and I did THEATA
in old people's homes I did, you know, like and
so the most important thing for I was doing shorts
that I was paying to be part of. I was
doing class. I was still doing acting classes, like I
was very I was always involved and engaged creatively, and
I think that helps not become too disillusioned, because if

(23:36):
you can become completely divorced from your creative outlets, then
I think that that can feel like a death.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, that's a beautiful way to think about it. What
was it like auditioning then for The Handmaid's Tale? Because
now your seven season you know the show is seven
seasons in, which is so crazy? Yeah, and yeah, how
did it? Did you know then? But because it was
an adaptation of the book, like did it already feel

(24:03):
it like it was going to be a really big deal?
Was it nerve wracking or or did you have that
that sort of energy on and go, No, I know
this is for me.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
Oh I know really, I know when when I can
do a part like the times I read it and
be like, I'm going to do my thing on that.
Now you may not want my thing, but I'm going
to get to do my thing on this. And but anyway,
all that to be said, look, you had lots of
people face us now and you put yourself on tape
and it's like it's thrown into the ocean and just

(24:32):
like never hear anything back and you're.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Like the weirdest.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
And so this was just another self tape that I
was doing. And I had a great actress friend of mine,
Nikki and kummer Bird, who put me on tape. And
she's great because she's a person just like make me
do another take and another take, another thing, evenough I'm
like I.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Think we've got it, just do another one and changes.
So I had that and anyway I sent it out.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
One thing that I did have though, is that read Marana,
who was the director I'd worked with actually the DP
on on a little I've done before, and so I
kind of had reached out to her.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
And I think sometimes lots of those.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Kind of like cross but you know, they can cross
pollination that can help something go. But when I was
offered it, Lizy Moss wasn't who Lizzie Moss is now,
you know.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
And Hulu wasn't what it is now, I mean if he.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
Past remember, but Hulu won the very first Emmy for
Best Drama Series. So so with Handmade's Tales, so I
e before then they were not on the map.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
They were they were nowhere, so far from like feeling like,
oh this is the one to be honest. When I
first got offered it, I was like, okay, great, and I.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
Said to my agent, so nothing, nothing else, right, We're
definitely sure.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
This is great great. I was happy about it. It
was great source of material.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
I wanted to work with Read again because she's extraordinary,
but there was no sense of what it would be
or how long it would go or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah, oh what a trip. I'm such a fan of
Reads as well. It's cool to hear.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
That you guys work together.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, So what is it? What is it like now?
I mean, you know the show, you're preparing for it
to come to an end, and obviously the whole dynamic,
as you said, of the show and the streaming platform
itself and all of it has exploded and changed. Is
it bittersweet? You know? I imagine part of you is

(26:29):
ready for the next thing, for more freedom, But then
it's also this incredible thing you've all been doing in
this cultural phenomenon and this reflection on society, and like
it's big.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, I know. You know what?

Speaker 3 (26:44):
Because I asked this question, variations of it quite a lot,
and I guess my intuitions about it seemed to be
different from what the question implies, which is that I
don't have much of a sense of it ending, which
is I mean, number one, my last day on set
was five months ago, you know or whatever, six months
like and so, and since then, I've I've worked on

(27:04):
three other projects and I was working on another you.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Know, so so so the sense of Okay, what they
did it end? Well, it kind of ended six months ago.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
But but in a weird way, I don't feel it's
ending because I feel like what it is for me
is the experiences I've had with the cast and the crew,
the experience I've had growing as an artist with the material.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
And so that's what it is. And so that is
with me, like that glan end.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
And so look the paycheck I got on the last thing, Okay,
that's gonna I'm gonna have to find a new paycheck.
And so when I missed the guaranteed that, yeah, I
can miss that. But that's not what people are talking
about when it's like a you're gonna miss it and
and so.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
And for me, I honest I haven't watched most of
the show.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
And because you've been making it, I've been.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Making and I and that's my relationship with it.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
My relationship is with the scripts and with the cast
and the crew and the sets and so so.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
So the thing that I like to think, will I
miss it? Like this?

Speaker 3 (28:09):
Coolzzy? I mean, I was just texting with Amanda yesterday
like I'm gonna really miss them, and I'm hopefully we'll
do other projects together. And sometimes it's two years before
Handmad's seasons. So anyway, I guess all of us to
say is that my there is in me personally, there's
no sense of morning. There's great gratitude.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
We did it. We did it. You know what was itever?
You know? Okay, great, so it ended well, that's the best.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, it's true. It's really beautiful. And I think it
is interesting to think about because it is a streaming show.
To your point, the end is much longer. It's not
like you're finishing a season of a crime drama on
CBS and then three weeks later the finale airs and
you're still moving out of your apartment and then it's
over forever. Like you get a much longer tail with

(28:57):
something like this. It's cool. Yeah, was it a neat
thing in these latter years, not just working with Lizzie
you know who you talk about being so exceptional. I
imagine you built such an intimacy and a rapport as
you know, castmates, coworkers' friends with her playing your wife.

(29:19):
But in the end, to circle back to our Queen
Bee theory, she also started directing. What was that like,
you know, to get to expand your creative relationship with
each other while she was in the director's chair.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Well, when she first started, you know, the sense of
it is that you just want to support her, You
want her to win, and there is a real camaraderie
amongst the cast and crew, like we are here for
each other, we're here for the material and like, so.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Lizi's directing, great, how can we support you in this
times out?

Speaker 2 (29:54):
She didn't need our.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Support, Cocau. She was just an absolute natural and nailed
it visually. And I think, you know, with the actors
and stuff, and what I come came to find is
that I had some of my best performances with her
as director because she kind of understood my process as
an actor. And it's like, I don't know, it's stupid stuff,

(30:17):
Like very often my best take is after I feel
like they've directed, has got what they want, you know,
my people, please I'm just like you, and then you
tell me okay, well then you could do anything. And
then and very often it's then when something will catch.
And so she knows me well enough almost that she's
almost like quite early on, she kind of pushes me

(30:37):
to be a bit more better, and so lots of
little nuanced type things like that where she can help
people out the best of me.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's great work with it.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
I love that, And it's really nice to hear, not
just hear you, I mean i'm you know, for our
listener friends out there in the ethers. I get to
look at you while we're talking as well, and it's
nice to see the way your face lights up when
you talk about that creative relationship and the energy on
set and being seen, especially because you know, as a viewer,

(31:07):
as a fan, the world is so dystopian and the
experience that women in this world have with men is
by and large so terrible. It's sort of gorgeous to
hear about how nice it is for you guys as
real people. Because yes, as an actor, your job is
to service the material. You have to play the shit

(31:29):
out of somebody, whether it's the lead in a rom
com or a serial killer, but it can be so
heavy to I think, wade through material this grave and
I don't know. As another actor, I'm so touched watching
you Grinn talking about how great she is and how
you guys get each other and you speak the same language,

(31:50):
because you know, a lot of what you have to
portray for those of us who watch you is so gnarly.
How do you make space for that? You know? How
do you Is that sort of surreal? Especially I know
you can't take it personally, you know it's not you,
but but also is it weird at moments to be

(32:12):
aware of, you know, being a man in that in
that version of the world.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, I didn't know.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
It's hard to because I guess when I'm Luke, I'm
inhabiting his perspective of the world, and when I'm me,
and it's I sometimes get And also my processes is
that I when I'm acting, I always speak as like
I don't ever say that even me just say now
when I'm Luke, my Nuttings can say I like I

(32:40):
do this my wife's you know, like that's the So
it's hard sometimes for me to differentiate.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
So it's like, oh, me and the world of handmaids
and me.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
Out the world of having I guess look the overall
and Tom stomachs this Do's answer your question is just
that I try and stay woke. I try and say
informed about like what's going on in the world. But
my energies and focus go to where are the places
that I have levers of influence? Where can I make
this this issue a little bit better?

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Where can I contribute here and all the rest.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
I just try not to keep on my shoulders too
much and so sore. When I'm doing the scene, I'm
not thinking about, Wow, you know overall what is it regime?
And and you know the how the don downtrodden and
how our society is like affected by race and class
and gender and sex.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
And I'm just like, you know, what is going on
in this scene right now between me and this person.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
And and for me personally as an actor. You know,
I played mccutio right, and Macushio gets stabbed in the
stomach and then dies bleeds out, knowing he's going to
die young and miss the rest of his life.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Oh so fun. It's so fun.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
I bet that was gorgeous, So you.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
Know, so it's the same acting in the hand, mad sow.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
I've gotta weep. Your daughter has been taken from you. Oh, oh,
how tasty? Give me more? Yes, yes, yes, you know
I'm not going away. Oh my heart, it's broken. Oh
the fathers who have lost daughters.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Nah.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
I'm like, my job is like in the moment when
I'm doing it, you know, I'm met the d you know.
And so it's hard emotionally, but ultimately as a person,
I don't go home and have bad dreams about it.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah. Well, I always think the balance of that is
sort of fascinating, because our job is to shut out
the rest of the world and just be as present
as possible. As you said in the scene, in the moment,
every day you got to do the thing, and and
I think there's something so freeing about that. But it's

(34:49):
also got to be kind of crazy to look at,
as you said, to be conscious of what's happening in
the world. Have you ever had a day where you
see a news story or some insane thing is going
on and you're like, are we manifesting the bad guys?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Like?

Speaker 1 (35:04):
What what's happening? I would imagine maybe obviously you've got
to focus when you're on set, but like when you're
on hiatus and you see what's going on in the world,
are you just like, uh, oh.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
Boy, you know what?

Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yes, is the simple answer. But I think I take
the real world so much more seriously than I do
the art that it's like the the art is like
I don't know, a low resolution similarly a rhyme of reality.
And so I'm much more engaged in like reality. And

(35:42):
so yes, oh, it's interesting that there is a poem
about what's going on right now. But but if I
read an article now, I'm not I'm not really thinking
about handmaids. I'm thinking about oh, oh gosh, my daughter,
you know, what kind of rights would be available to
how and and and to be honest, I also I

(36:02):
try and remind myself that I think it's very very
easy to become very America centric in terms of like
what's going on. And you know, I've done quite a
lot of charity work, and I mean I've not done
a lot of charity work.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
I take that back.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
I've got a charity where we've done some work, and
most of my focus has been on women young girls
in Africa and particularly in Zimbabwe, Tanzania and Nigeria and.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
It's like, so, so.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
When I'm dealing with like the specificities of that, it's
kind of not connected to you know, you're figuring out, Okay, well,
how can we help facilitate micro loans for farmers in Zimbabwe?

Speaker 2 (36:42):
Where is a different type.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
Of like you know questions as well, So that's sometimes
they're not as immediately like oh my god, this is it.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors. You
reference your background and where you grew up, and you know,
whether you're working on the African continent or you have

(37:13):
the English part of your history, or you're working in
America or you're filming in Canada, it's like there is
there is such a I think there's a beautiful gift
about coming from multicultural backgrounds. And I think one of
the greatest gifts of what we get to do as
actors is that we get to live everywhere. Everyone becomes
our neighbor, and you really do get to sort of

(37:37):
learn so much about people in society, and you know,
for me, leaning into knowing how my dad was raised
in Canada, knowing how my mom's family in Italy grew up,
knowing how like you know, seeing the differences in their
experience versus my experience growing up in America. It gives
me a lens on how to remember how big the

(38:00):
world is. And also then I can't help but pay
attention when I'm like, oh, look, fascism is rising everywhere.

Speaker 4 (38:08):
But you know, we've had the elections in Australia and
the elections in Canada so lovely, you know, And so
I think, you know, I try as much.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
I can get kind of like apocalyptic in my thinking,
and I do try, and like, yeah, just remember you
know when I go everything's going to fascism.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
I no, no, no, no, no, no. Look you can always you know.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Well, And I think service can really help you reprogram
your brain to always look for the helpers, to always
look for who's who's doing the.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Good thing, always looking at the helpers.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
Isn't that the helpers?

Speaker 2 (38:48):
But that's my conference like American show mister Rogers.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
Rogers, we never had mister Rogers, but I played something
for my son and we were looking for like good TV.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
And I remember this thing about like looking out for
the help of this kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah, mister Rogers he was. He was like kind of gangster,
this sweet old man who wore his cute cardigans, which,
by the way, it turned out his mom made for him.
Oh wow, like just so utterly precious. Was really he
was kind of a gentle revolutionary. He was very pro equity,

(39:25):
and he took a lot of leaps and bounds on
TV that no one else was and he did it
with that sweet little old man face and voice. And
as I learn, as I've learned more about him over
the years, and even his fight for PBS, I'm like, damn,
I wish I could have bought mister Rogers a beer.
Probably doesn't even drink beer what I had to buy
a couple of days.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Tell me, are you more optimistic or pessimistic about the world, Like,
let's just give it the next ten years?

Speaker 1 (39:54):
If I am being pragmatic and I have to work
on that because I people, I think, because I am
a fighter for justice, people who don't know me well
assume that I'm always angry about something, and I'm like, no,
I'm actually wildly optimistic, to the point that it's been
a bit dangerous. So I try to be very communicative
about reality so people can know how to organize. Sitting

(40:21):
in that pragmatism, I think it's going to get a
lot worse before it gets better, which makes me sad.
But I also believe that there is that we are
in a moment of a shift where people really are
being touched by the reality that there are so many
more of us than there are of the oligarchs. You know.

(40:43):
The fact that we've had the you know, here in
the US, we've had the theft of a trillion dollars
from the working class to eighteen billionaires in the last
ten years is pretty terrifying. And I'm afraid for people
who will suffer in ways that that sort of oligarchy
class can't even fathom because they've never had to go without,

(41:05):
they've never had to make certain kinds of choices. And
I worry about people, but people want to help each other,
and I think as as we see what's coming, I'm
really hoping that the opportunity that it felt like we

(41:26):
kind of squandered when the pandemic hit, and we really
had a chance to make some great shifts, especially in
terms of public health and especially in terms of the
way we show up for each other. We got more isolated, sadly,
and I think people are realizing the effects of that
and the radicalization that happened and all of these things.
And my hope for us, this is where the optimist

(41:47):
comes out, is I'm like, we're better together people. I
really do think people are good. I think fear can
make us cruel, But when you really start to see
your neighbor, spend time with your neighbor, everything changes. And
I don't think we're as different as a lot of
folks would like us to believe. And I really hope

(42:11):
that what's happening now is kind of lifting this veil
for a lot of people. I definitely, I definitely feel
like I'm seeing it in certain ways, and I'm just hoping.
I'm hoping it doesn't take us the lessons that it
took one hundred years ago to come back to each

(42:34):
other because they were brutal and horrible and awful. I'm
really hoping that we can do better because we know
more now. But I guess we'll see. How do you feel?

Speaker 3 (42:46):
That's a great answer, much better than anything I'm about
to say. The sure, Well, how do I feel? In
terms of do I feel optimistic about the next ten years?

Speaker 1 (42:56):
I don't know if it's optimistic or pessimistic, Just how
do you feel and maybe where do you want to live?

Speaker 2 (43:02):
I know that's a good question.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
I I feel, like my senses that we live in
very revolutionary times and the rate of change and progress
and potential for damage that there's there's huge variability when
I kind of try and assess like the probability distribution
of the future, and so it's hard to say, really.

(43:27):
I mean, in particular, I think, you know, the administration
that we have is is like strangely, you know, I
don't minicine in a necessarily good way, but not any
way revolutionary in the terms of it's just changing really
hard and fast. A lot of a lot of things
that have been like kind of set in place, and

(43:47):
how much damage or even potential progress in various areas
is so unknown, and it feels like that and then
we've got a long, you know, runway for that to
kind of all play out. And then on the other hand,
and that there's like AI, which I think, you know,
I think has the danger of being under hyped. I

(44:07):
think the ways in which AI may change our societies
over the next decade are going to be quite profound,
and so so I'm uncertain really.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Which.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Me too, Me too, And it's there's things that make
me nervous, you know, in the in the sort of
theme of the show of yours we've been talking about
most I see the way AI tools are being used
at really alarming rates to abuse women and girls. And
I am working with some really brilliant people who are

(44:44):
ringing the alarm bell about what serialized violence against women
and girls means as a tipping point for society.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Can you tell me more about how AI has been
used to yes.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
So, deep fake pornography, for example, is when you consider
not just how we need to think about it, but
actually what we understand in terms of the data of
what it does to victims. It is the digital sex
trafficking and the digital rape of women and girls. It
is it is allowing for content that creates the same

(45:20):
kind of PTSD as physical assault. And it is being
weaponized against famous women, non famous women, neighbors, teenage girls,
and children. And over ninety eight percent of the victims
of this kind of abuse are female. And so when
you think about, you know, sexual assault being used as

(45:42):
a weapon of war, which obviously is a war crime,
but what it indicates for society, what it indicates about
the level of brutality with which you see your neighbor.
It's a tipping point for the kind of violent conflict
that should alarm all of us. And the way that
it is sort of shrugged off because it's quote digital

(46:05):
is also alarming because the human brain cannot tell the
difference between seeing a videotape of an assault and an
AI assault. So it is creating desensitization, It is creating memory.
When it is imported into virtual reality, it creates the

(46:27):
illusion of an experience. So what does that then do
to women and girls in the world who can be
approached on the street by men who think they've had
sex with them against their will. You know, it has
really alarming ramifications, and unfortunately, companies like Meta and Google
and every tech company that we all use make a

(46:48):
fortune surfacing this content. And we've seen increases like in
the thousands of percent. So two years ago there were
around half a million views on this kind of content
and today we're seeing over four billion views a year.

(47:08):
So to see the explosion of it and to know
that it is currently something that we are not legislating
fast enough against is terrifying because not only is it
creating a more unsafe society for fifty one percent of
the population. But the amount of energy it takes to

(47:29):
assault women this way, like what it's going to do
to the planet is really scary. Now, on the other side,
we see incredible opportunities for AI and it's actually why
my best friend and business partner we advocate. We both
invest in what we believe to be good AI, and
we are literally advocating in Washington and in front of

(47:51):
Congress for protections and laws to be made about this
bad side of it. We produced a documentary about it.
It's called Another Body. You should watch it.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
It's fabulous.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
But you know, we invested in this amazing woman. You know,
she is a black woman from Detroit who realized from
an engineering background that started an automotive. She went down
this incredible rabbit hole of what AI can do. And
the best way I can kind of explain it is
if you think about a disease that medicine can't figure

(48:25):
out how to treat, they can't drug it, so people
are dying. It's basically like the disease is locked, right,
It's like a padlock and they're trying so hard to
find the key. But it can cost billions of dollars
and fifteen years of clinical research to find a key
that might fit the lock. She has developed a way

(48:46):
to essentially use AI to if you will. This is
a metaphor obviously, but imagine being able to three D
model the lock, so you can three D model the
shape of the key. So she is cutting down time
to create drugs that can save people's lives for previously
quote undruggable diseases with this technology. And you see AI

(49:08):
catching breast cancer five years before a radiologist catches it,
and all of these other wonderful things. So what worries
me about that technology is kind of what worries me
about society at large. It's like, if we're in the
twenty twenties and you compare it to the world in
the nineteen twenties, are we going to go the terrible

(49:29):
route of the nineteen thirties or are we going to
have a twenty thirty kind of revolution that sees community
and access and us stand up for each other or not?
And so I don't really know, but I'm hoping that
we can be smart about it, and I hope that

(49:54):
you know, AI can go solve diseases and we can
still make art because people need art so badly. Yeah,
sorry to kind of scramble your your brain.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Not at all.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
I think about AI more than I think about anything
really really.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, I spend more to send you something.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Oh yeah, I definitely do.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
I Yeah, I spend more time like trying to study
AI and and it's implications more than anything else I studied,
to be honest. So so everything I guess all you're saying,
and I'm just like, you know, taking in and you know, Crocess,
I don't know, there are so many things I think
about everything you said, but I just don't know where
it starts. I'm just like, yeah, yes, thank you for that.

(50:34):
But you know, extraordinary the work that you're doing. And
and yeah, just like you said, we're trying.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. It's that
sort of same feeling I was talking about earlier about
the bees, where I was like, when I grow up?
And then I was like, shit, I think I'm a
grown up. You know, my my best friend and I

(51:01):
had this experience five years ago. We kind of looked
around and went, oh are we Oh God, were the
adults in the room. Now, Oh, we have to start.
We can't just volunteer for other people. Right now, there's
people who they want to volunteer for us. Oh god,
So you know, we're definitely trying. But yeah, I think

(51:22):
in my in my most ideal outcome scenario, that technology
would make more space for the rest of us to
have more reasonable hours and also make more art.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
I know, I really hope for this version is kind
of like UBI And you know, but over the last
thirty years, all the efficiency that we've managed to create
in automation and with the Internet and all of those things,
that all that efficiency has just gone to the oligarchs.
And they were e columnists who would predict that that

(51:59):
efficiency would go to labor and therefore labor would become
shortened and we would have more spare time, well time
with our family, and and it's just not the way
it's gone. And it makes me kind of like a
little pessimistic.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
But ot, don't you know that they couldn't give it
to us because the oligarchs needed more yachts.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
This is I mean, this is the thing, because a.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Fleet of yachts isn't enough. You need you need a
whole shipping yard apparently.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Yeah, and if yours don't become enough, then you need
to build spaceships and so.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Oh my god, yeah, I mean we really do.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
But like what what you said, you know, us coming together,
us finding our union, our community, and ultimately voting in representation.
That will because the market is great, Like you know,
the market is great at a bunch of stuff. It's
just not it's just it's just not great as some
things that are really important. And if we don't have

(52:48):
strong government that kind of comes and steps in to
take over from the girl market, or at least affect
the market in ways that are going to protect labor,
protect people, protect working people, protect people who are from
disadvantaged backgrounds, and with the mercy of the builders.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
Well yeah, and that's the thing. All of the progress, however, fraud,
All of the progress that particularly are has been made
in our living generation. You know, the forward strides terrify
people who don't desire more balanced power. But I think
the more of us who can understand that if you

(53:25):
have more power, so do I. If I have more power,
so do you. Like, we hopefully can affect change by
I don't know, by being willing to you know, to
see each other, and I guess by being willing to
trust the economists. It wasn't lost on me that a
few weeks ago, you know, when she spoke, I think

(53:45):
it was in San Francisco. Kamala was like, oh, you
mean this plan that those nineteen Nobel economists said would
trash the economy? And mine was great, you mean this
plan is trashing the economy. I'm not going to say
I told you so. I needed I did, I did,
I did need. Just like a moment of humor for her, Well.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
What's your I mean, I'm just curious what what I
Please don't ask this question to be back because I
don't know. But what what's your assessment of why the
election went the way it did? Like, well, why do
you think you know, in November last year, like more
people didn't make the choices that look, you know too calmly,
seems so obvious.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
What what? What? What? What? What do you think number one?
Number two is there?

Speaker 1 (54:30):
I think there's a lot of algorithmic influence there because
when when you start to look at what anger porn,
essentially people were being fed depending on their algorithm. You know,
she was accused of being blue in one person's algorithm
and accused of being read in another. Right, and the
and the messaging was completely effective in both of those algorithms.

(54:54):
I also think, I hate to say it that the
world hates women in power.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
They they just do the world or America.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
I mean America certainly, but a lot of the world,
I think as well. Unfortunately, you know, it's it's a
confluence of so many issues, down to the uplift and
new popularity of tradwives. Like all of it is advertising.
And unfortunately, when you when you look at the way

(55:23):
they essentially advertised against progress and against her and against labor.
Let's be clear, it worked, and then it was compounded
by and I think really made worse by the fact
that you know, we have a now president, a second
term president, who is paraphrasing Adolf Hitler to drum up

(55:48):
terror and anger and anti immigrant sentiment. And you know,
people keep being like, stop making those comparisons. I'm like, well,
then stop quoting the fucking guy. Like we won't say
that you're using his words if you don't use them,
but you're using them, and so is half your staff.
So it's like that stuff is really effective. Unfortunately, and

(56:10):
when you don't have policy to run on, you have
to run on fear loyalty. You have to create a
cult when you have nothing to defend, and he's done it,
and I think it's really unfortunate. And I think the
fact that the man who bought the election for him
for two hundred and fifty six million dollars controls the

(56:33):
largest sphere of influence and could algorithmically program three hundred
and something million people every day. You know, he's turned
around and he's made himself what eight billion dollars so far,
if not more. It's like it's all just a grift,
the cryptocurrency, and the Saudi's buying two billion of it,
and you know oligarchs from around the world doing they're

(56:56):
literally buying America. And I think every one who realized
they got sold outrage porn right now is like uh
oh uh oh. But the scary thing is, and we
talked about this a lot in his first election. When
you open Pandora's box, you don't really get to close

(57:16):
the lid. When you create a cult when people buy
into QAnon, and the guy who started it is like,
I didn't think anyone would take me seriously. This was
like fan fiction on the dark web, Like, well, people
are trying to kill each other over your fan fiction. Now,
so again it harkens back to the way I feel

(57:38):
about AI. It's like, we better get some regulation on
some of this stuff before it's too late. I'm excited.
That is it in Sweden or Switzerland? Maybe neither. Now,
of course I can't remember. I'm gonna have to look
it up afterwards. Somewhere in Europe is proposing a bill
to make it illegal for politicians to lie, and that

(58:01):
they will get fined every time they lie to the public. Like, yes, yes,
that should that should be it, because if I hear
one more person say, oh, Ben Shapiro doesn't believe half
the ship he says on his show or on Fox,
but it's how he gets the clicks, all right, I'm like,
are the clicks really that worth it to you?

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Bro? I don't think it's whales apparently, quick Google search.
That's Welsh.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Here we go, the Welsh. The Welsh.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Now now look, I look, everything you're saying to me
makes absolute sense.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
I think sometimes when I look at the world, I'm
always like, Okay, that's what those people, my antagonists are doing.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
There is well, that's what the obstacles are doing. Where
is what do I need to do different?

Speaker 3 (58:41):
What they're going back to the sphere of influence, Like
one of the things that I can do, do you
retrospectively look back and go, hey, we played it perfectly
that we were just what what?

Speaker 2 (58:52):
What do you think where? If you have you seen
Ezra Klein's new new book on the.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Bund Yes, I ordered it.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
It's really really worth I found that.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
I found it really compelling listening to him to talk about,
you know, this new vision of you know, the democratic
leaning democratic vision for abundance for America and anyway, I'm
just curious what I want you if your money takes on, Like,
what do you think our holes were?

Speaker 1 (59:17):
I think there's a lot. I think at the end
of the day, it's tough to I think it was
really tough for people to understand, and it started in
twenty sixteen. I think people don't understand how influential these
non traditional channels are now. I don't think we have
been cultivating spheres right. You know, the Mano sphere is

(59:39):
funded by the right, by Russia, by all the Stark money.
We haven't cultivated spheres that are based in reality. We don't.
We haven't fought back against Mitch McConnell's forty year plan
to defund American education. So do we really want to
judge people who can't necessarily understand a complex economic proposal

(01:00:00):
from someone qualified to hold the office of president when
folks are just trying to figure out how to pay
their electric bill and feed their kids. Like, we have
to demystify policy a bit. I think we have to
talk to people where they are. And I think what
we have to do a better job of is fight
back against this insane idea that because we defend labor

(01:00:21):
and we defend building a prosperous middle class and a
well taken care of like fuck a living wage. I
want people to make a thriving wage, a well taken
care of working class. That doesn't mean we want you
to stay there. But there has been all this research
that I've read in the last few months about how
folks who don't fall into these upper classes in this

(01:00:45):
country believe that the Democrats want them to stay where
they are, That we don't believe in class mobility, that
somehow saying you shouldn't you shouldn't be stuck making you know,
forty six thousand dollars a year in a factory job,
why not double? They're like, how fucking dare you think
I'm not worth more than ninety thousand dollars a year?

(01:01:05):
And it's like nobody said that. By the way, I
don't care. Launch a company, win the power ball, whatever,
Go be the most, Go become the richest person. You know,
I would love that for you. I would love that
for me, by the way. But I'm not saying you
don't deserve more. I'm saying I think you deserve more
than what you have, so that you actually have the

(01:01:26):
space to continue to work up from there. But there
is this fallacy in public opinion that they think that
democrats don't believe people deserve wealth, And it's like, that's
not it. I just don't think people deserve to be
oligarchs Like Elon Musk didn't make you know whatever, close

(01:01:48):
to a trillion dollars by doing anything. He's made it
by stealing from everyone and underpaying his employees and grifting
global governments for contry tracts like I just want you
guys to have some of his money.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
Actually, yeah, I think the conversation about like, for example,
like the top rate of tax often kind of when
people hear oh, you want the top rate of tax
will be fifty percent, And straight away in one's mind
it's like, so you want to take fifty percent on
my money, And it's like it's just understanding, Oh, you know,
whether it's ten million or whatever, the number is that
above that, every dollar is taxed that x amount. It's

(01:02:27):
just it's intuitively, even for me, like they hear it
just intuitively because like, oh that's crazy. You don't take
it enough. I'm struggling playing the bills, but just you
know that that's.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Yeah, it's like I'm telling you, you don't know anyone
who would get taxed like that either, do I Right,
we don't know those people, and they'd be fine.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Yeah, and it's it's they'll be fine. Yeah, it's it's
so interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
I mean, I guess it kind of did then, you know,
I guess that the most season potentially counter argument to
that is that, okay, well then you risk the flight
of business, you is, the flight of rich people who
do pay numerically a disproportionate amount of well, even if
it's not like proportionately that makes make any sense. But yeah,

(01:03:13):
but I mean, obviously there are ways around that. You know,
we taxing wealth is supposed to taxing income and all
those kind of things.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Well, that's the thing. I don't care. If you're wealthy,
go be wealthy. Good for you. All I'm saying is
if you have two billion dollars, I think you'd be fine.
With a billion, you'd be fine, you'd be great. Good
for you. Great. But you know, when people talk about,

(01:03:42):
you know what this country used to be, I'm like,
you mean, when wealthy people paid US seventy to eighty
percent tax rate, When all those social services you want
but you don't want other people to have, everyone could
have when the wealthy people seventy five percent of their income,
like some one with a billion dollars, you don't think
could live on two hundred and fifty million dollars. I'm

(01:04:05):
not saying you can't have a jet. I'm not saying
you can't have three jets. I'm just saying, maybe you
don't need to be able to afford to buy Boeing
as a company when kids don't have lunch at school.

Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
Yeah, call me, call me a radical man, woms and
maybe you are.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Maybe I am.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
Wonder and I wonder this about America, And I also
wonder about England, where I come from, whether or not
like where you know, like whether or not those value systems.
It seems to me in the Nordic countries that intuition
is kind of fundamental. It's in the grounds, like the
intuition that oh, we're gonna have a net that means

(01:04:51):
you cannot go broke because you got sick, Like that's unfathomable.
But I do wonder whether and this is part of
the incredible byck to me of this amazing country, which is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
That on one hat.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
That it can be so capitalistic, so marketed, that you
can have great innovation, you can have great and on
the other side you have this incredible poverty. And that's
ultimately the gamble that the people of the country en
mass want to take. And it's like, well then am
I am I just a minority that thinks, hey, why
don't we scaling back a bit?

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Like well, but I think that's it's it's the false
binary there. I'm not saying, uh, you know, poof, we're socialists.
We are everybody gets the same income and if you
have over ten million, you get nothing. I'm not saying that.
I'm literally saying keep a billion, but maybe not two.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
I know, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
And and so here's what I think is really interesting, right,
is there's this idea that we're going to take it
all away and then no one's ever going to be
able to get rich. And you might not be rich now,
but you could get rich. And if we give everybody support,
then you're not rich now, but you'll never get rich.
And I'm like, okay, so essentially you think you're going

(01:06:09):
to win the lottery, which is delusion, but I still plague.
By the way, it's fun.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
I like it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
I like my little tickets. I'm like, what if it's
my week? I don't know. But what's crazy to me
about this idea is it's like they've poisoned the well.
And again, I'm not saying we should be a socialist country,
but what I am saying is it's fucking ironic to
me that we have socialism for rich people and capitalism

(01:06:35):
for poor people in America. Rich people get all the
socialist benefits. They get the tax breaks, they get the
income shelters, they get the write offs, they get to
offshore their shit, they get to write off their private jets,
but teachers can't write off colored pencils and paper for
their classrooms. Like it's cuckoo bananas to me, and so

(01:06:57):
for me, I'm like, look, be as capitalist as you,
but also just pay your taxes. I would much rather
Elon Musk pays taxes than teachers have to figure out
how many power bars they can afford to buy because
half their kids aren't getting enough calories during the day.
Like I just I don't feel bad for the guy.
And again, I don't think we should take all his

(01:07:17):
money away. I'm just saying like, at a certain point,
you don't even you're not even going to miss it,
like a wealth tax, you're not even gonna miss it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
Bro, Yeah, he wouldn't even know God, And I mean
I guess to that extent, it's almost just like, oh,
can we just have it fair?

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Can we have equal like you said, like we yeah.
So you know, the average person.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
On a homeowner, a mid person in the middle class
has to pay tax on what is their biggest source
of wealth, and most of them is the equity in
their home. We you know, you pay one percent or
whatever your state, you pay wealth on that. But people
don't pay wealth on the shares that they hold. And
this is mainly held by the billionaires, and so it's just.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Like, well, so we figured there is. It's not socialism.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
It's not crazy crushing people when you're taking the wealth
of the middle class, but it is when you take
the ball. And so you know, even I guess one
way Berne is just like, can we just have it
be this?

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Can we be the same the same? Can the school
teacher get the same as elon?

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Just proportional tax would be so great. So it's just
the same. It's not so hard. And now a word
from our sponsors who make this show possible. It's actually

(01:08:37):
it's so funny to me because it makes me think
I love diving into this stuff with you. I'm like,
oh my god, we need a meal and a bottle
of wine with all of our friends cleared. But you know,
I also realize we're overtime, but so I have to
pay you two more compliments.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
But we have time for compliments please.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
It really makes me think about when you you played
Barack Obama in the first lady, because I'm like, oh
my god, I yeah, you just you have such a
wonderful political mind and it's so much fun I think too,
to dig into these things. And ask questions and debate
and to do so hopefully, you know, in the spirit

(01:09:15):
of taking care of people. Was it surreal to play
the president?

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Oh yeah, now that was super serric.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Did you get to talk to him?

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
No? I didn't. I tried, well we didn't. All the
Biola did get to.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
Queen Byo that should say it did get to speak
to Michelle Little because they'd had a previous relationship. But
it was crazy and they have in that Atlanta is like,
you know, fake White House, you know, and so yeah,
I'm getting out of the limo and this fake press.
It was super super surreal. I'm terrifying, scary and thrilling

(01:09:48):
and yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Yeah, wow, that's so cool. I also unrelated, I mean
to that show, not to any of this, because it's you.
I loved Presumed Innocence so much. I loved it, and
you were so good and you and Peter Sarsguard were
just so good and I I had this moment where

(01:10:09):
I was like, God, I haven't enjoyed disliking someone in
a show like this in a long time. The tension
was so compelling and the motivation even though you were
supposed to be the foil, right the motivation, and I
could just read not exactly what you were thinking, obviously,

(01:10:32):
but I could watch your thoughts while you were on
screen and see the way you detested this person and
then made us the audience second guess is he the
hero or is he the villain?

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
Is this man?

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Correct? Like, oh my god, the cat and Mouse of
you guys was so much fun. Hats off to you.
I loved it so much.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Thanks. So I really enjoyed doing it. I mean it was.
It's funny because one of the things I did was funny.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
I ever studied politicians, and because they did so often
this two faced thing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
Well, on the one side, you're like, oh, yeah, what
you're saying I agree with.

Speaker 3 (01:11:04):
On the other hand, you're like, I do not trust you,
and and and so I was just like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Saying, what is this thing? Anyway?

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
So I started working on it, and I started working
on the voice, and you know about like you know
how annoying and kind of like grating some people's voices. Well, anyway,
I remember, I don't think they his production really knew
what I was going to do with the part, or
like like it was going to be that kind of
like hateable likeable, hateable character. And I remember I did
the first scene and I came off and I said, look,

(01:11:31):
do you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Mind if I watched a little playback? And I watched
it and I went, oh, yeah, he's hateable.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
And the producer turned to me like, oh no, no,
I mean he's not hateable, he's you know, we don't
want him hit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
And I was just like, no, one, this is gonna
be fun.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Like, no, it's nice for me. It's this is what
I wanted as an actor.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
So much comes from Peter because Peter is just this
extraordinary actor to play with, and you know.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
It's amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
Yeah, and it's so you just he's so unpredictable, he's
so up and I think I work well on the
some level of chaos.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Oh I love that. Well, what's what's next for you?
I mean, obviously, you know Handmaid's Tales coming out, you're
all doing the press and the things. But as you said,
there was over months and months ago for you as
an actor, so you're onto the next. Are you working
on something now? Have you just wrapped something? Can you
tell us even?

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
Yeah, there there are a couple of little you know,
don't want to call them pair projects. Where you know,
friends of mine who asked me to do a little
bit for them. So there are a couple of things
like that that's coming out. But the main project I'm
working on now is called The Miniature Wife, which is
this bizarreo comedy kind of surreal comedy.

Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
And I'm playing like the weirdest character I've ever played
in my life. Is he is so out there. There
are many a day I come off going, well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
That was insane.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
So anyway, so that's so for Peacock and then writing
and so you know, I'm I'm writing. I love developing
and trying to do stuff like that with my brother
and so that those are those amazings that keep me
off the streets as well as my kids.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
Oh it's fabulous. That's what I want, I think, you know,
referencing our earlier sort of segue. Things feel heavy. I
want to go to work and laugh. I want to
go to work and be stupid and funny and weird,
and I'm like, I can't. I don't want. I need
a break from the heavy levity and absolutely awkward humor.

(01:13:32):
Feel like such a respite. I love that you're doing
that right now.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
Oh yeah, well that all that has come in to
screen the year.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
Yeah, well good and and you you and your brother,
you have a production company together, he has a production
to do it together.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
Yeah, so he's got he's got his production company, and
then I have like a label under his production company
there or all this stuff that we did again.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
I just love working with him.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
He's kind of like what I was thinking about Lizzie before,
is that he's someone who just knows.

Speaker 2 (01:13:59):
How my brain work and gets me writing.

Speaker 3 (01:14:02):
And funnily enough, I just before it was two weeks
before Christmas and we were gonna do Christmas in Virginia.
We have some family out there, and he was gonna
come join me. And I was like, dude, you have
an idea for this movie. And he was like, oh, great, great, lovely.
Why didn't you write something down? I was like, no, no, no,
I want to shoot a proof of concept and so
let's shoot it over Christmas. We'll have Christmas Day and

(01:14:23):
then we'll shoot for two days after that. And he
was like, well, we don't have a cast, and I
was like, is your daughter coming? Okay, great, so that's
one I'll ask my best friend to come. And so
he was so he was like, oh, are you serious.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
But he's so.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
Game that we went, we went and did it and
we shot you know, this c crazy short over two
days after Christmas anyway, So that's my my brother's mentality
is just like how we we did this TV shirt together.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
Called Max m a xxx check it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:51):
Out on Hulu's call We're wild probably, and we got
all these like we've got the Backstreet Boys in it,
we got we got a.

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
Bunch of Larry King did a little cameo in it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
And that is pay because he's got the attitude of like,
let's just got to Larry King and ask him, Hey.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Larry, would you just give our stuff five?

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
It wasn't going to his agents when we did the
Backstreet Boys, weren't talking to people's managers. We were literally like, yeah,
will you come to this? And you know, with Kevin
for the Backstreet Boys, we were like come on, well
he was like, well, I can't do right now.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
You know, I'm going home. We were like, where'd you live?
Why don't we come to your house?

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
And so he let us come to his house and
then we gave him a bottle and he smashes out
of my head.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
You know, it's a working with.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
LOUTI is just like it's a whirlwind, and like I said,
I'm pretty well in some cares. Well.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
I love that you guys jump in and just make
it happen, because I think we need permission to do that,
especially in this business where it's like you've got a
call so and so and you're like what You're like,
don't you know that we're all just like a bunch
of circus performers.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:15:51):
I also think it's so cool that you guys have
like such a special mandate because knowing you know, as
again as I was prepping, you know, reading up on
how you very intentionally hire black department heads from makeup
to locations to producing to writing. It's like to expand
our world not just on camera but behind it, to

(01:16:14):
make sure people get to see themselves, to make sure
their experiences are represented. Like the whole thing is so
important and it's I don't know. I love that you're
like chasing Larry King down and that you're also making
shit happen for your whole crew. It's very very awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
Thanks a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):
Yeah, I mean, just to say about that just real
quick though, because it's interesting because like the I and
all that is in the news our. I mean, I
can't speak specifically for Luty, but for me, like when
I was making my show.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
I just wanted to make sure we interviewed the black
you know, ahead of costume we are.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
That's that they got a fair chance, that when we
interviewed actors, that we were active interviewing some actors with
some disabilities, because I think so often what happens is
like these talented people aren't getting in the room. So
it's not about giving someone who's not talent the job.
It's kind of like what you were saying before, can
we make it fair because you olligart to going, oh yeah,

(01:17:10):
my nephew has as just graduated, but you give him
give him a shot at something. So you have your
pipelines of getting people in.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
Can we just make it fast.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
This person who doesn't have some connection in the industry
also gets to be interviewed. And through that process we
met some amazing you know, men and females and people
with disability and all sorts that just were extraordinary.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
But just we're never given the chance to shine.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
Yeah, I think it's really cool. To your point, all
you're doing is expanding you know, you're expanding the pool
exactly and it's wonderful. I'm going to ask you my
last question. Okay, obviously you have a thousand irons in
the fire right now, and as you mentioned, your dad,
and you know, your family is all over the place

(01:17:54):
and it's it's so many spinning plates, but you love
the chaos. I think all of us kiss kids do.
What whether it's personal or professional, or maybe it's a
mix of both, what feels like you're work in progress
when you look out at the year ahead?

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
Well, now, sorry, break it amplimented. What do you mean
with my work in progress?

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
Just like I like to know what feels like something
that guests are noodling on or working on, whether you
know somebody recently shared some really deep shit about what
they're going through in therapy. You know, someone was like,
I'm going to get this movie made this year. You know,
we've got friends trying to write novels. It's like, I

(01:18:38):
guess I just always wonder when people are smart and
creative and also have families and are doing the thing
we're all trying to do, which is make it all happen. Like, what,
what's that central thing that you feel like you're working
on and tinkering.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
And the thing that I'm thinking about most today and
and a lot is and say that again too emotional,
which is which is basically just being a great father
like and and trying to figure out how do I
give the best lift off to these incredible creatures that

(01:19:18):
I for now I am looking after because hopefully if
I do a good job to become adults and be
free in the world and and managing that with the
demands of all the things that we all know, you know,
like paying the bills and doing your own art and
having your own life and healthy indeed, all the things
that we're supposed to be doing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
But you know, they're so vulnerable.

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):
It's complicated, you know, how best to water these gardens and.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
So you know, being patient, I think patients.

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):
One of the things I struggle with, you know. And yeah,
there's no rushing that process. You just have to go
through the middle.

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
Yeah, beautiful. It's a pretty interesting thing, you know, when
you talk about their ages, I think about how close
you know, the kids in my life are. When you
love to communicate and you love complexity and a deep
conversation to figure out how to communicate really well, with
a tiny little brain that is developing and learning but

(01:20:21):
doesn't have all the language yet. It's it's like a
whole other kind of creativity.

Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
Yes, And also for me, it's kind of like, you know,
my head, you know, I didn't know what they call it,
eddideot whatever. My head runs and I'm thinking about on
something like I'm thinking about free will, and I'm thinking
about market situations and ai, I don't think about this
all writing projects I'm developing. And then you yeah, you know,
and then my you know, my daughter wants to throw

(01:20:50):
the ball whatever the thing is, just scribble on something
or she.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
Wants me to chase but she don't want me to
chase it. She wants me to cold her and me run. Yeah,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:21:03):
And it's like you just have to be there doing
that thing and to give them the most, it's to
be present. And I'm so tempted I want to put
a podcast in my ear while we're doing because it's
like my brain needs this other things going on, and
it's like it's quite hard for me to kind of
let go and just be like okay, just present, like.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
We are running, we are rolling, and.

Speaker 3 (01:21:27):
Sure five to ten minutes is crying, but just figuring
out that hour, that two hours, that yeah, that presence
with them, and like you say, because they can't communicate
on the breadth of bandwidth that we can and so
we just have to go analog.

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
And yeah, it's incredible, it's incredible. Ah well, this has
just been such a joy.

Speaker 2 (01:21:49):
Yeah we have to do it again.

Speaker 1 (01:21:51):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know, best of work with the
show coming soon and I mean, gosh, just all of it.
It's really really exciting and and yeah we'll have to
we'll have to dive back into some of the nerdy
policy processing soon for it. All right, my dear, thank

(01:22:12):
you for today.

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
Yeah, thank you. M