August 25, 2021 • 42 mins
Today we are joined by Courtney Kocak to discuss losing trust in Only Fans and then we get Portland updates from Robert .
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, So we spend a big chunk of today's
episode discussing only fans and their recent policy changes. However,
that conversation was recorded prior to them reversing those policy changes.
But the conversation was great. I think it's really interesting
and important, and we cover a lot of great ground
(00:21):
and we have a very cool guest. Uh So we're
gonna go ahead and we are going to run it anyway.
You're welcome and thank you. Welcome to Worst Year Ever,
a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome Together Everything. Welcome
(00:54):
to the Worst Year Ever. Bross and Brofanas, the two
genders rose getting Latin up in this ship. We have
to you know, I I think thank you for being
(01:14):
inclusive of our Latin speaking native listeners, of whom we
have ones. So I want to start this episode with
a little continuation of our Afghanistan episode because I was
just on Facebook and a friend of mine a segment.
A friend of mine shared a segment from someone else's
post that I think really says it all. Quote Taliban's
(01:38):
retakeover shows what implacable hustle and a Sigma grind set
can get for you. Even the biggest turtles the biggest
foes are nothing compared to a player with his eyes
on the bag. Your mixtape ain't banging, your e book
ain't selling. Just don't quit your caboul is yours. The
military was the chatl unbelievable, Robert. I really thought that
(02:04):
we'd unpacked everything last week, and then we talked about
it some more and even more news, and at that
point I was like, yeah, we're done talking about Afghanistan,
but you broke the mold. Here new to offer. Yeah,
we're doing this whole episode. We're gonna talk about the Taliban.
Sigma grind Set. Here to tell us about the Sigma
grind Set is Courtney Kossak. Courtney, Oh my god, this
(02:28):
is a whole another episode that I was expecting. Yeah,
that's not. When did it come clear to you that
the Taliban were ultimate Sigma's coming live from the Taliban? Yeah?
You were here to talk about only fans, so okay, okay,
(02:49):
well hey speaking speaking speaking of hustle culture, Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,
we're thrilled to have you here today to join us
to talk about only fans and not the Taliman unless
it circles around naturally. Back to that, I'm not I'm
open at all. But yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you
(03:11):
for joining us. So you're here today to talk to
us about what is going on at only Fans and
what that means for sex workers and content creators who
rely on the platform for income. UM. Could you maybe
start by telling us a little bit about yourself and
how you started using only Fans and what your background
is and everything. Yeah, totally, So I actually started. This
(03:35):
is so kind of random. But after the UM you know,
George Flott Floyd's terrible murder and the protests that came
out of that, I was like, oh, how can I
do something that's like bigger than donating my own thirty dollars? Right,
So I did one of those things where I was like,
I'll send you a you know, typic or whatever if
(03:59):
you send me a receipt. And I was like, really
strict about the receipts that I got. I'd be I'd
have to validate them. And then you know, I got
so many requests it was crazy. I was like, Wow,
sex really does sell. So I raised over thirty thousand
dollars for that. Yeah. It became like a little bit
(04:19):
of a full time job. And then and you know,
did it did that kind of longer than I was expecting,
and then I was like, hey, I really kind of
enjoy this. I'm in a I've been in a relationship
for now five years. It was four years a year
ago when I started my only fans account, And you know,
after a while, you're like, is this it is this
(04:40):
my whole sexuality? Like just this one guy? I don't know? So,
um yeah, I it was perfect for me. I love
exhibitionism and um yeah, that's kind of what my my
whole accounts like, kind of like French topless titties and fun. Um. So,
(05:01):
you initially were drawn to the platform as a way
to fundraise, but after a while it became clear that
this was a line of work that you enjoyed and
it felt empowering, and so you started to use it
for for yourself. Yeah. Well I was first doing that.
That initial like fundraising effort was like mostly happening in
my Twitter d M. Eventually I was like, let's move
(05:22):
this out and then I gave out like a percentage
at first, and then oh, I mean this is what
you The impetus was wonderful, but I think it's also
very cool that in doing that you realize that this
is a viable career choice for you, which I'm also
(05:43):
you are also a comedian and a podcaster, so this
is also just a new writer version of the world
that we live in of leveraging your different social media
platforms in different ways. Um, So, I guess now is
the time to talk about what's going on at Only Fans,
(06:04):
the changes that are going into effect. If you want
to talk to us a little bit about this, Yeah, totally.
So it's so funny because Only Fans just right before
this all went down, was like, we would never abandoned that,
you know, the people that brought us to the dance
basically and Ben it was. Yeah, it just came up fast,
(06:27):
I think and has been like a huge shock to
everyone I'm part of. Yeah, I think that that's what's
really important about that. I mean, there's lots of things
that are really important, but Only Fans exists and has gained,
you know, popularity because it has been used by sex
(06:47):
workers or content creators that you know, tap into that world.
I don't know, I'm not going to put a label
on how you would identify yourself, but there's lots of
different degrees of this kind of a work uh and
this is a safe space where people could step in
and take control of it um uh on their own terms.
(07:08):
And so it gained popularity for these types of creators.
And now that they are looking at investments and they
are receiving a lot of pressure from banks who do
not want to be associated with pornography or you know,
anything sex work related because of pressure from Christian groups
and other you know, conservative groups, etcetera. So all of
(07:32):
this pressure is coming down on to only fans and
they've announced that as of October one, they will not
be allowing people to upload posts display content that well,
I'll just start reading through promotes, advertisers, or refers to
sexually explicit conduct, which means acute, actual or simulated sexual intercourse,
including general genital, oral, genital, anal genital or oral anal
(07:55):
between persons of any sex, actual or simulated masturbation, any
ambition of the anus or genitals of any person. Okay,
I'll go on. You know, lots of rules that are
coming down in different ways on this community. But they
are saying that nudity would still be allowed within reason.
But what is what are those boundaries? It's a gray
area that we already see happening on other you know,
(08:17):
sites on Instagram, on Facebook. You know, this has long
been a battle. Just like Yeah, I mean like a
couple of years ago, Tumbler did the exact same thing
where they just got rid of uh, sexually explicit content.
And does that is that a popular website? Now? Do
people use that website? Suicidal? Yeah? Totally. Yeah, it's particularly
(08:39):
bizarre considering only fans specifically, was that's what this was,
That's why this took off. And as you're saying, like
the people who invited them to the dance and brought
them to the dance. Um, and just yeah, and if
you post anything like it's also unclear. I'm assuming there
(08:59):
might be more spe sophicity. But you know, if you
you're found in violation, it will lead to you being
permanently suspended, your earnings being revoked again. This is something
that people rely on. Um. It's also just a super bummer.
I have to say as someone who like I was
(09:20):
really excited about the cultural shift that I felt was
happening during the pandemic and it felt like and maybe
I'm just in an l A bubble, but it did
feel like there was this new wave of acceptance and
like understanding that of sex work being a real job
and like of it holding like a valuable place in
(09:44):
our society. And I just feel like, I think the
community is strong, Like I think that people have gotten
a lot out of this, and sex workers have found solidarity.
I know I'm part of this like comedy hose group
chat group where you know, like people give each other
advice and stuff, and I think people will some people,
(10:06):
privileged people will be able to like migrate. But it's
I think the reaction like, yes, it matters because this
is how people make a living, and you know, of
course it matters for that reason, but it's also like
kind of an emotional blow where you're like, oh, I
thought we were kind of like working past this, we
(10:27):
were taking steps forward. I I completely agree with you, uh,
And I think it's a really important point and a
part of this conversation because right I just briefly walked
through why these changes are happening. Okay, this is because
of cultural pressure from institutions that have been around for
a long time that are resistant to change, and of
(10:50):
stigmatized sex work, sex work which we all now know
and should First off, sex work which has been around
since the beginning. This isn't something new, This isn't phrase
a popular phrase about how it's the first job ever ever.
And there are all sorts of crucial things, real important
(11:14):
things that are life and death, uh that you know,
banking institutions and investors could actually care about making a
stink about and could actually apply pressure onto companies for
positive change, and this isn't one of them. And why
it's so disappointing exactly is because we feel like we're
finally at this point where we are having conversations about
(11:36):
sex and sexuality and recognizing the detrimental effects of repression,
you know, within our economy, within our personal lives, within
our relationships, all of that. It feels like a really
important and good things stuff that we're being forward. But
at the same time, stuff like this happens. And I
would be remiss if I didn't also bring up fasta
(11:57):
sesta um. If you guys remember from a couple of
years ago, Fast assessed to being the legislation that was
passed to shut down, um, you know, sex trafficking, specifically
child sex trafficking, and it mostly targeted back page like yeah,
like the classifieds of Craigslist and things like that, where uh,
(12:19):
because that's I mean, that's one of the other things
is like this this was a safe space for sex
workers to take control over their own job and their
own lives and not have to go. I mean there's
a cut that's taken because it's an which yeah, but uh,
(12:39):
at least but you know there there's always gonna be
space is created and like you're saying, like Backpage in
these places where um, there's at least a digital space
to uh safely meet people and vet people, um, and
taking that away seems damaging. Um, And uh, this is
just yeah, another sense of that um where it's created
(13:02):
for a purpose. And then just also only fans is
acting a little bit like they like, poor us, we
had no toys. It's just the banks, you know, YadA YadA.
And first of all, from my research, there's a couple
of things. They could be their own payment processor. There
are other sites that are doing that, like fan Centro.
(13:23):
And then there's also this thing that's called a form
or UMT seven form. I think I'm saying that right,
but it's basically where um, you know, if if I
had someone who was I was having sex with on
my only fans, I could have them like validate there
(13:45):
who they are and confirmed that this was consensual and
that they like wanted to be filmed for this. And
it's the same thing that like, yeah, anyway they could
fill that out. It wouldn't not be terribly hard from
my point of view for them to implement something like
that and then no problem. But you know, that's like
(14:09):
one of the major things that the payment process or
that I think it was MasterCard had an issue with
was like, oh, we couldn't we can't validate that these
people wanted to do this and that they're of legal age.
But it's like, okay, but do you know how to
solve that problem? You easily can y um, yeah, very
clearly excuses for this and even like like finding like
(14:31):
they're having trouble finding investors. Are you really know you're not.
There's just the different kinds of investors they want very
very successful app This is just cover for the fact
that they want to be seen as mainstream, even though
they are approaching it at least from where from the
the original trajectory. But they want you know, um more
(14:53):
mainstream users to be attracted crities and influence, right they
want to use it for like, yeah, do your posts
and like cameo stuff or whatever, there are there are
other places for that. Um and like also just the
idea of like we need to play, we need a place,
we need a place for celebrities to go to post
(15:14):
things they can't a going to pay them. How do
we know about them? Yeah, I I want to say
a couple more things about Foster as Sessa as a
part of this conversation, mostly in UM the impact it's
had as we're you know, just context for for some
(15:37):
of this. Like we talked about, you know, the the
original justification with sex trafficking, but it's not like they
don't understand how beneficial places like this are for the
rest of the community. But also the fact that, uh
it doesn't really reduce sex trafficking at all. UM was
(16:01):
bound to just put it underground more right, you know what,
sex trafficking existed before we had the Internet. So it's
interesting how it continues to exist even if you drive
it underground and in fact make it harder to sniff
out together everything. So this is from uh why dot org,
(16:32):
a piece that they put out in the two years
since sex work Advocacy groups have reported a spike in
the number of missing and dead sex workers across the country.
People have reported that more folks are engaging in street
sex work after back Page got shut down. Albert said,
generally speaking, street sex work is more dangerous than the
sort of sex work that was engaged over the internet. Umm,
(16:57):
especially during a pandemic. So totally expecially during a pandemic. Yeah,
it says more than say foster as SESSA has affected
their financial situation negatively. Um of Respondence reported an increase
in the exacerbation of mental health symptoms. And again there
has not been much, if any evidence that it has
(17:20):
reduced sex trafficking and has in fact greatly increase the
negative aspects on everybody else's life. I mean, what I
see is creators who are empowered to sell their own
whatever they're trying to sell on the site, and so
they're like cutting out the middleman, and I know, you know,
(17:43):
and so yeah, I just feel like this. I hate
that the sex trafficking conversation gets so much a part
of this. Yeah, And I'm sorry to bring it up now.
I only do because this has been something on my
mind and watching and as soon as this news broke
it is the first thing I thought was like, well,
time to go back and look at how that worked out.
(18:05):
And nobody's talking about it. We've there's granted there's been
a lot going on, but nobody's talking about this, and like, yeah,
you mentioned the pandemic. I think about I just think
about this effect on so many different ways on this community. Um,
so you've got another month on the platform before these
rules go into effect. Are you continuing for now to
(18:29):
keep going on and do your part? Like are there
has there been any sort of organizing or plan to
push back on this or have you heard about other
sites that are I know that there are other platforms emerging.
There doesn't seem to be like a super attractive alternative yet,
you know. And I mean for me, like, I'm not
(18:53):
super eager to move unless I think that the platform
is gonna, you know, be a good solution. Um I think.
I mean what I've seen in I'm scrolling through the
group now is like mostly people trying to figure it
out and like asking themselves these questions. It hasn't been
(19:13):
that much time, you know. I I don't know because
I'm sort of like in this gray area, like you mentioned,
the things that you can't do on the site, and
like what I do is in that kind of like
vague statement about like we will allow nudity, but you
know what does that mean? Um? So yeah, I don't know.
(19:38):
I'm personally I am like, maybe I can contintinue. Maybe
only fans is going to change something in the next month.
I don't know. There might there might be some learning
from the response, but I can't imagine that it's going
to be enough to protect the entire community that uses
that place. UM uses the site still, it affects their
(19:59):
bottom line and like which by then it'll be well,
everyone will have left, so please come back. We changed
our mind. It's not gonna work. Well, there is a
little bit of that back pedaling already now. Of course,
classic UM workers, we love you, yeah, yeah, yeah, we
(20:22):
never acknowledged you before. But they're putting us like pandemic
commercials like today on this day, we want to honor
our sex workers. You brought us here. UM. Sex work
is real work. Like what are you doing? Are you? Um? Friends?
If you connected with other have you connected with other
(20:45):
creators that use the site? Uh in different ways from yourself?
And if you heard any experiences for them or any
of the the struggles that they're going through because I
am at I know, I know that people depend on
this income and it's going to be a huge law.
Like we we've it's huge. We you know, we did
a whole series on our podcast, um that was our
(21:07):
Comedians of Only Fans series, and you know those girls
made that we were interviewing, We're making a ton of money,
were like planning to buy houses, were like, you know,
making big decisions with this money because it was kind
of life changing and career altering and um. So you know,
(21:28):
those are the same creators that I'm seeing now, like
in our chat group and just you know, in conversation
just being like ah okay, so what do I do now?
You know, and some like one of my friends has kids.
It's like it doesn't just affect these people. It's like
(21:49):
the families and it's like a really big the implications
are huge, and so I don't know, it doesn't seem
to be like there's a solution yet, right, more freaked out.
We're like, you know, people like come together and like
I'm just like my mind's like do someone make a
(22:10):
new one. It's like and own it together and then
like being like being even more in charge of is
a good opportunity if someone is waiting in the wings,
it's developing. It's just about then there's the period of
time of building up a fan base or a base
on a new platform, because it's not like there's it's
(22:33):
easy to get well right, it would require like aside
from like make the app, but like you know, uh
big like larger creators and kind of creators, like coming
together and being like we're because if people moved somewhere,
the people subscribing will move there too. It's just you
guys need to unionize. I agree. I also just think
(22:56):
like I could migrate my I subscribers relatively easily. So
I do think if there is some sort of coordinated like, okay,
at least the girls in for instance, the comedy Hose group,
we're all gonna, you know, plan to migrate our subscribers together.
(23:17):
And then as long as the cut is fine, which
is a huge problem. Most of these places are even
higher they're taking and then it's like why am I
even doing this? You know, So somebody came out with
like another platform and oh this is another thing too.
Only fans hasn't been promoting I mean, they've been getting
a ton of free pr because of sex workers on
(23:40):
the platform, but they haven't been promoting the sex workers
on their platform to their subscribers. Who they promote to
their subscribers or is like a YouTuber like you know,
a chef or you know whatever. It's at this point,
they don't deserve you guys to stick arout. They need
to get their ship together or someone else please fill
(24:03):
this void. Yeah, I mean speaking of the Taliban, isn't
one of the problems that like a replacement to onely
fans would have the fact that, uh, these kind of
moral crusade groups keep going after payment processors and stuff. Absolutely,
that would That was so smooth, Robert, thank you. Wait
to see eamlessly bring it back to that. I'm I'm
(24:26):
a professional, even when I'm actively dying of a stomach virus.
You've done, You've done your job, Go throw up again.
I love that the pandemic has created a world where
you can show up to work sick. Actually, just vi
a zoo. I always showed up sick at work at
the old job. Whenever I would show up and be ill,
I would just walk to Cody's desk first, and you know,
(24:48):
get some fluids on some of his possessions, just wipe
stuff on other stuff. Yeah, exactly. That's that's that's why
we're such That's why we're such close friends. You share,
you share so much together. We share microbiomes exactly, Courtney. UM,
this has been really great chatting with you. Um. Can
(25:08):
you tell us a little bit about your podcast as well?
You mentioned it your podcast rules. Thank you, Sophie. Yes,
thank you guys so much for having me on. I
have a podcast called Private Parts Unknown. It's about love
and sexuality around the world. Uh. Yeah, it's super cool.
We've been to Helsinki, We've been to Mexico City. We
(25:31):
went to Tokyo right before the pandemic. I know, it
was amazing. It was like, that's why I kind of
couldn't believe it when I came back in the bans happening. Um.
And then we just actually took a trip to Belize
and so we're going to start rolling out. How do
I get to be a party your show? I want
(25:52):
to travel places in record podcasts. Pretty cool premise. I
have to say, good job, love that, well well done.
We tried to do that, but we couldn't travel around them. Also,
like our destinations were gonna be like se pack destinations
depressing totally not different, like show leave, hang out and
(26:15):
hang out in new work and listen to Dan Crenshaw
talked to a bunch of like go up to four
years old, Cody. Um, can you tell our listeners also
where they can find you online? Yes, I am at
Courtney Kosak last named Ko c A K pretty much everywhere.
(26:37):
And hey, if you want to sub to my only
fans Coco peep show, hop on that train for the
next month and then maybe further in the future. We'll
see what happens over the course of the next month,
but do it. But I got you for the next
month for sure. So all right, thank you, Courtney. Uh.
And we will be back after this break for more
(26:59):
things together everything, so don't don't and we are back
from that break. Um. Robert is very sick him for
(27:24):
being here. It's only appropriate on the Worst Year Ever
Part two. Um, But we wanted to hear the update
about what's going on in Portland. And I know you
guys talked about it a lot today already, but I
think our listeners are also interested than some stupid ship
happened in Portland if you want to. The episode that'll
(27:45):
be dropping on Wednesday, of it could Happen here was
largely about kind of our critiques of the of the
anti fascist response to this big Proud Boy rally, which
I think is valuable if you're trying to uh analyze
performance and how things could go better. But I think
today we'll kind of talk about on a national level,
what what's been happening in Portland's and kind of where
(28:08):
it fits in. So it's worth noting that the kind
of street clashes between anti fascists and you know, fascists
started in Portland about kind of late two sixteen, um,
a good year or so with something going on in
Sorry there's no way to tell um, but it kicked
(28:28):
off about a year before things happened the United the
Right rally and Charlottesville. UM. And and while kind of
Charlottesville had it's it's horrible violent right wing protests, uh,
and you know, a couple other cities, if a like Kenosha,
I've had protests and counter protests that turned deadly. Um,
it's just kept happening in Portland. It happens all the time.
Happens every every week, really not every week, but like
(28:51):
every every year, like every like the summer is generally
like a right wing groups will come into town and fight,
UM and assault people and and take over chunks of
of neighborhoods and and shoot paintballs at bystanders and stuff.
Was what happened on the twenty two. The total some
cars assaulted, a bunch of people, just kind of ran
rough shot through a heavy like the most diverse neighborhood
(29:14):
in Portland, while the police did nothing. Um. And there's
so because kind of a lot of this started in Portland.
It's been kind of the where these different groups have
tested strategies before bringing them out to other parts of
the country. So um, they started it was where they
kind of started working with law enforcement and building bridges
(29:36):
of sympathy with local police. Um. And you saw that
kind of come to a head on the sixth. In
a lot of ways, it's where they you know, Salem,
an hour from Portland, was the first time one of
these right wing groups physically attempted to breach and take
over a capitol building, just like a week or so
ahead of January six UM. And you know, in recent
(29:57):
weeks you've seen members of Proudy tried to embed with
uh kind of other religious right wing gatherings and kind
of try to camouflage you know, Proud Boys and members
of other extremist groups in in that sort of situation.
Um And so it behooves everyone to kind of pay
attention to what happens in Portland because um it, it
(30:20):
always happens here first, you know. Um, as as goes
por Portland's so goes the nation. And one of the
things we've seen this last week or so is, you know,
everyone knew this was going to be a horrible, violent time.
People started freaking out in Portland about it. A couple
of weeks ago. Anti fascists started rallying and putting together
a counter protest, and the mayor was finally forced to
(30:44):
issue a statement in which he suggested people choose love
and also said the police will take no action to
protect anybody. And they sure did. Um, they sure did not.
And so people were assaulted. Um And and this is
like I'm not actually I when I complained about the
police not doing anything, it is not to say that
I think the solution here is to send the police
(31:06):
in because when the police do come in, they primarily
attack the left wing side uh and and collaborate with
and work with right wing protesters. UM. Part of the
reason why this situation has gotten so bad in Portland
is going on five years now of the police using
kid gloves on these people while they assault folks. UM.
(31:30):
So it gives them all season they feel emboldened. Ye. Yeah,
and that's that's part of the problem. And the solution
to that isn't just give the cops more money, because
like one of the reasons they said they couldn't have
responded in Northeast Portland to this gigantic brawl where proud
boys are just shooting bystanders with paintball guns and macing
people and totaling cars was them that they they there
(31:52):
were so many calls that the police department, who was
all hands that day, was was totally overwhelmed, and it
was like, there's eight d Portland cops. They have two
thirty million dollars a year in budget. UM. They showed
up immediately when a right wing protester started firing on
a crowd UH downtown, which is, you know, an affluent
white part of town. But nothing happens when they when
(32:15):
there's this clash in in northeast in a in a
in the most diverse neighborhood in Portland. It just kind
of puts a lie at everything they've said. And I
think there's this one wonderful moment. We parked right outside
the side of the shooting and there was a big uh.
There was a sign um like a blocker so away
that we came upon that just said choose love. And
(32:37):
like in front of that sign where all the police
cars and stuff as they were like arresting this man
who had fired a handgun into a crowd, and somebody
posted on Twitter, don't choose love, choose level four, which
is like talking about body armor, um, which is, you know,
I think a reasonable statement like that, And it kind
of gets to the heart of what what Portland's had
(32:59):
to do as a result of police failures and local
government failure failures to stop this ship, which is people
have had to come up with their own solution. Those
solutions are very um mixed uh and and certainly in
a lot of cases worthy of criticism. But ultimately people
have been having to work out kind of ad hawc
how to respond to this ship because there's a problem
(33:22):
these folks are coming into town and doing horrible violence.
Um And none of the people whose job it is
to protect citizens have been protecting citizens. Um. So citizens
have have had to try to develop their own measures,
and those have been a variety of things. But like,
at the end of the day, what are you going
to do if your if your government says we're not
(33:45):
going to when these people come to town to beat
the ship out of you, Um, We're not going to
take any action. How's the mood on the ground there
amongst activists. I'm curious because I know, I mean, you've
been so deeply involved with all of these protests in
this whole movement in Portland, and I know that you
(34:06):
were feeling pretty down about things. Yeah, you know, there
was a mix. The good thing, a lot of folks
showed up. Because of so many folks showed up downtown,
they moved their rally to another part of town because
they were scared of all the people that showed up.
It's worth looking at photos of events from two thousand
and eighteen and seeing how much smaller the right wing
gatherings are today. UM So, It's it's not to say
(34:28):
that there hasn't been an impact as a result of
the anti fascist organizing. But it's also there's, um, you know,
the response on the twenty two in particular, had some
notable flaws, including kind of an a a disorganized response
to when ship cooked off in the northeast, where you
had these small groups of people showing up to confront
(34:49):
them and getting you know, beaten very badly. Um, you
didn't have kind of an effective strategy for dealing with
that second gathering. And you also had I think some
of this was just like Portland has had a quieter
summer than a lot of people expected, so when there
was a shooting downtown, folks got all amped up and
started building barricades and doing the things they do at protests.
(35:11):
Were like, all right, time to get ready to uh
defend our our ourselves here, and um, it was this.
You know, I don't have an issue with that so much,
but it was just a matter of like, as someone
who thinks that like a community response is necessary to
these events, Um, there's aspects of the community response that
we got on the twenty two that I thought were
(35:32):
unnecessary and even counterproductive in some ways. And I don't
want to we talk about that again on it could
happen here a lot. UM. But I think in general
one of the issues that UH was present on that
day is that you have a lot of people, as
people have encountered more and more violence personally during these events, UM,
(35:52):
they've gotten kind of desensitized to it. And I think
you've seen a decline in sort of the effective other
strategies people used, UM, and folks kind of defaulting more
and more to like, well, it's time to build barricades
and pull out mace, UM. And it's it's you know,
some of it's just because I think people we're excited
(36:13):
to get a chance to be out in the streets
doing stuff. UM. I think some of it. A lot
of it was just people were really amped up from
the shooting. UM. And you know, there was a in
terms of like the the ineffective or the questionably effective stuff.
I saw. One thing that was very effective was the
the armed anti fascists who responded to the guy firing
(36:34):
a handgun into a crowd. Because there was a single
dude firing a handgun into a crowd, UM, two people
reportedly drew guns to confront him. At least one of
them fired UM. They both took effective cover beforehand. Um.
They both aimed low enough that though their shots missed,
none of them hit windows. They were hitting the base,
like the foundation of a building, so not an area
(36:55):
in which they were likely to go through and hit
other people. UM. And they none of them dumped their magazines.
You know, that's a thing that often happens in stressful situations,
someone just fires the whole magazine very quickly. Um. They
were fairly controlled with the situation. And they were not
firing at a guy who was running away, not firing
at a guy they were They were firing at a
situation in which returning fire was really the only effective
(37:18):
response because he was shooting into a crowd. Um. And
so that part, that part was positive. Um. There were
just also things that I think we're flawed, including kind
of not having a comprehensive way of dealing with the
fact that they moved their gathering to the northeast. That
was just kind of more of an organizational flaw. And
then there's you also get individuals at these events who
(37:39):
are kind of more amped up and aggressive than others,
who did some stuff that that's fucked up. And it
again it's this problem of yeah, that's going to be
a problem with kind of a decentralized, horizontal movement aimed
at community defense. UM. And it's it's a thing that
that movement has to come up with solutions for because
you can't you can't have all of these different kind
(38:00):
of negative trends extending into forever at the same time.
I I don't agree with people who are like as
we just don't show up, because you know, we've seen
in Los Angeles what happens when there aren't large counters
to these right wing events that they've been right wing
protesters has been showing up like outside of clinics, assaulting
cancer patients who are wearing masks, assaulting people outside of
(38:21):
the wee SPA, assaulting people outside of city hall, and um,
you know, assaulting press, assaulting and they they Proud Boys
yesterday or two days ago, assaulted like a bunch of
women in their fifties who showed up, no masks. They
weren't Antifa, they were just showing up with signs to
counter protests. The Proud Boys they got like macedon us
where right in front of the Proud Boy gathering outside. UM.
(38:44):
So it's it's not I I don't agree with people
who are like folks should stop rallying to defend the town.
But it is a matter of like, I think analysis
needs to be had about what's working and what's not,
because I think people people can get emotionally tied to
things that used to work or things that feel like
they should work. Um. And the right is constantly iterating
(39:07):
and adapting their strategies, and that's part of what Portland
is for for them. It's where they try because they
know the police aren't going to do anything. It's where
they try a new strategies out and um, so it
is very important to disrupt them in places like this. Um.
And yeah, it's it's it's just a it's it's a
(39:27):
lot of responsibility for one town. Yeah. And it's you know,
everybody's again, everyone in Portland is a little bit, uh,
a little bit deranged from trauma. I include my Like,
everybody's responses are a little wonky at this point, from
the press down to the doubt, from the press and
the protesters down to like bystanders. Um because even like
(39:50):
the random locals we were talking to had all seen
street fights or in some cases been in them, like
they weren't there to protest they just lived in the
neighborhood and we're like, oh, yeah, well you know to
years ago, I got massed at one of these things.
Trauma is the exact right word, yeah, for everybody living there,
and it in it ratchet, ratchets up the tensions. Well,
(40:11):
and that's a strain that you're carrying around and a
fear of when it's happening next or what's next, because
it's going to happen again. They're there, they're doing shit.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's hard to respond to it.
It sounds like a very difficult environment to be right now. Well,
(40:32):
it is. It's a it's a it's a it's a
nationwide problem and I it is, but you are in uh,
like a specific hotbed of it. But yes, it is. Yeah,
it's it's a nationwide problem, and an un disproportionate burden
for kind of coming up with effective solutions on it
has been put on a bunch of like random people
(40:53):
in Portland, Oregon. Um. And so the fact that there's
been a very mixed uh efficacy in the sponsors people
have come up with is kind of inevitable, you know, um,
because it's it's a difficult it's a difficult thing to
to know how to handle, and I don't. I don't
entirely and know like what the best solution is. This
(41:14):
is kind of a new problem. And even if you
look back at the last society to deal with this heavily,
like you look at um, you know, Vimar Germany as
much as you know, I have respect for the anti
fascists in Germany during that period, and I think there's
the I think people need to learn from them, not
by just emulating them, because at the end of the day, Um,
that ship didn't didn't do the trick, you know. Yeah, Um,
(41:38):
so it's tough. Um, I don't know. That's that's all
I gotta say. That was a good amount. Thank you.
I wouldn't have been able to tell that you're incredibly sick. Yeah,
not at all. I'm horribly sick and about to run
down to my bathroom again. So you guys, sounds like
(41:59):
the episode out good place to face up, yuys. Check
us out online at Worst Year Pod in Instagram and Twitter.
Pray for Robert, Pray for Robert. End of episode everything
so everything so dull Again. I tried. Worst Year Ever
(42:25):
is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts
from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey guys, So we spend a big chunk of today's
episode discussing only fans and their recent policy changes. However,
that conversation was recorded prior to them reversing those policy changes.
But the conversation was great. I think it's really interesting
and important, and we cover a lot of great ground
(00:21):
and we have a very cool guest. Uh So we're
gonna go ahead and we are going to run it anyway.
You're welcome and thank you. Welcome to Worst Year Ever,
a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome Together Everything. Welcome
(00:54):
to the Worst Year Ever. Bross and Brofanas, the two
genders rose getting Latin up in this ship. We have
to you know, I I think thank you for being
(01:14):
inclusive of our Latin speaking native listeners, of whom we
have ones. So I want to start this episode with
a little continuation of our Afghanistan episode because I was
just on Facebook and a friend of mine a segment.
A friend of mine shared a segment from someone else's
post that I think really says it all. Quote Taliban's
(01:38):
retakeover shows what implacable hustle and a Sigma grind set
can get for you. Even the biggest turtles the biggest
foes are nothing compared to a player with his eyes
on the bag. Your mixtape ain't banging, your e book
ain't selling. Just don't quit your caboul is yours. The
military was the chatl unbelievable, Robert. I really thought that
(02:04):
we'd unpacked everything last week, and then we talked about
it some more and even more news, and at that
point I was like, yeah, we're done talking about Afghanistan,
but you broke the mold. Here new to offer. Yeah,
we're doing this whole episode. We're gonna talk about the Taliban.
Sigma grind Set. Here to tell us about the Sigma
grind Set is Courtney Kossak. Courtney, Oh my god, this
(02:28):
is a whole another episode that I was expecting. Yeah,
that's not. When did it come clear to you that
the Taliban were ultimate Sigma's coming live from the Taliban? Yeah?
You were here to talk about only fans, so okay, okay,
(02:49):
well hey speaking speaking speaking of hustle culture, Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,
we're thrilled to have you here today to join us
to talk about only fans and not the Taliman unless
it circles around naturally. Back to that, I'm not I'm
open at all. But yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you
(03:11):
for joining us. So you're here today to talk to
us about what is going on at only Fans and
what that means for sex workers and content creators who
rely on the platform for income. UM. Could you maybe
start by telling us a little bit about yourself and
how you started using only Fans and what your background
is and everything. Yeah, totally, So I actually started. This
(03:35):
is so kind of random. But after the UM you know,
George Flott Floyd's terrible murder and the protests that came
out of that, I was like, oh, how can I
do something that's like bigger than donating my own thirty dollars? Right,
So I did one of those things where I was like,
I'll send you a you know, typic or whatever if
(03:59):
you send me a receipt. And I was like, really
strict about the receipts that I got. I'd be I'd
have to validate them. And then you know, I got
so many requests it was crazy. I was like, Wow,
sex really does sell. So I raised over thirty thousand
dollars for that. Yeah. It became like a little bit
(04:19):
of a full time job. And then and you know,
did it did that kind of longer than I was expecting,
and then I was like, hey, I really kind of
enjoy this. I'm in a I've been in a relationship
for now five years. It was four years a year
ago when I started my only fans account, And you know,
after a while, you're like, is this it is this
(04:40):
my whole sexuality? Like just this one guy? I don't know? So,
um yeah, I it was perfect for me. I love
exhibitionism and um yeah, that's kind of what my my
whole accounts like, kind of like French topless titties and fun. Um. So,
(05:01):
you initially were drawn to the platform as a way
to fundraise, but after a while it became clear that
this was a line of work that you enjoyed and
it felt empowering, and so you started to use it
for for yourself. Yeah. Well I was first doing that.
That initial like fundraising effort was like mostly happening in
my Twitter d M. Eventually I was like, let's move
(05:22):
this out and then I gave out like a percentage
at first, and then oh, I mean this is what
you The impetus was wonderful, but I think it's also
very cool that in doing that you realize that this
is a viable career choice for you, which I'm also
(05:43):
you are also a comedian and a podcaster, so this
is also just a new writer version of the world
that we live in of leveraging your different social media
platforms in different ways. Um, So, I guess now is
the time to talk about what's going on at Only Fans,
(06:04):
the changes that are going into effect. If you want
to talk to us a little bit about this, Yeah, totally.
So it's so funny because Only Fans just right before
this all went down, was like, we would never abandoned that,
you know, the people that brought us to the dance
basically and Ben it was. Yeah, it just came up fast,
(06:27):
I think and has been like a huge shock to
everyone I'm part of. Yeah, I think that that's what's
really important about that. I mean, there's lots of things
that are really important, but Only Fans exists and has gained,
you know, popularity because it has been used by sex
(06:47):
workers or content creators that you know, tap into that world.
I don't know, I'm not going to put a label
on how you would identify yourself, but there's lots of
different degrees of this kind of a work uh and
this is a safe space where people could step in
and take control of it um uh on their own terms.
(07:08):
And so it gained popularity for these types of creators.
And now that they are looking at investments and they
are receiving a lot of pressure from banks who do
not want to be associated with pornography or you know,
anything sex work related because of pressure from Christian groups
and other you know, conservative groups, etcetera. So all of
(07:32):
this pressure is coming down on to only fans and
they've announced that as of October one, they will not
be allowing people to upload posts display content that well,
I'll just start reading through promotes, advertisers, or refers to
sexually explicit conduct, which means acute, actual or simulated sexual intercourse,
including general genital, oral, genital, anal genital or oral anal
(07:55):
between persons of any sex, actual or simulated masturbation, any
ambition of the anus or genitals of any person. Okay,
I'll go on. You know, lots of rules that are
coming down in different ways on this community. But they
are saying that nudity would still be allowed within reason.
But what is what are those boundaries? It's a gray
area that we already see happening on other you know,
(08:17):
sites on Instagram, on Facebook. You know, this has long
been a battle. Just like Yeah, I mean like a
couple of years ago, Tumbler did the exact same thing
where they just got rid of uh, sexually explicit content.
And does that is that a popular website? Now? Do
people use that website? Suicidal? Yeah? Totally. Yeah, it's particularly
(08:39):
bizarre considering only fans specifically, was that's what this was,
That's why this took off. And as you're saying, like
the people who invited them to the dance and brought
them to the dance. Um, and just yeah, and if
you post anything like it's also unclear. I'm assuming there
(08:59):
might be more spe sophicity. But you know, if you
you're found in violation, it will lead to you being
permanently suspended, your earnings being revoked again. This is something
that people rely on. Um. It's also just a super bummer.
I have to say as someone who like I was
(09:20):
really excited about the cultural shift that I felt was
happening during the pandemic and it felt like and maybe
I'm just in an l A bubble, but it did
feel like there was this new wave of acceptance and
like understanding that of sex work being a real job
and like of it holding like a valuable place in
(09:44):
our society. And I just feel like, I think the
community is strong, Like I think that people have gotten
a lot out of this, and sex workers have found solidarity.
I know I'm part of this like comedy hose group
chat group where you know, like people give each other
advice and stuff, and I think people will some people,
(10:06):
privileged people will be able to like migrate. But it's
I think the reaction like, yes, it matters because this
is how people make a living, and you know, of
course it matters for that reason, but it's also like
kind of an emotional blow where you're like, oh, I
thought we were kind of like working past this, we
(10:27):
were taking steps forward. I I completely agree with you, uh,
And I think it's a really important point and a
part of this conversation because right I just briefly walked
through why these changes are happening. Okay, this is because
of cultural pressure from institutions that have been around for
a long time that are resistant to change, and of
(10:50):
stigmatized sex work, sex work which we all now know
and should First off, sex work which has been around
since the beginning. This isn't something new, This isn't phrase
a popular phrase about how it's the first job ever ever.
And there are all sorts of crucial things, real important
(11:14):
things that are life and death, uh that you know,
banking institutions and investors could actually care about making a
stink about and could actually apply pressure onto companies for
positive change, and this isn't one of them. And why
it's so disappointing exactly is because we feel like we're
finally at this point where we are having conversations about
(11:36):
sex and sexuality and recognizing the detrimental effects of repression,
you know, within our economy, within our personal lives, within
our relationships, all of that. It feels like a really
important and good things stuff that we're being forward. But
at the same time, stuff like this happens. And I
would be remiss if I didn't also bring up fasta
(11:57):
sesta um. If you guys remember from a couple of
years ago, Fast assessed to being the legislation that was
passed to shut down, um, you know, sex trafficking, specifically
child sex trafficking, and it mostly targeted back page like yeah,
like the classifieds of Craigslist and things like that, where uh,
(12:19):
because that's I mean, that's one of the other things
is like this this was a safe space for sex
workers to take control over their own job and their
own lives and not have to go. I mean there's
a cut that's taken because it's an which yeah, but uh,
(12:39):
at least but you know there there's always gonna be
space is created and like you're saying, like Backpage in
these places where um, there's at least a digital space
to uh safely meet people and vet people, um, and
taking that away seems damaging. Um, And uh, this is
just yeah, another sense of that um where it's created
(13:02):
for a purpose. And then just also only fans is
acting a little bit like they like, poor us, we
had no toys. It's just the banks, you know, YadA YadA.
And first of all, from my research, there's a couple
of things. They could be their own payment processor. There
are other sites that are doing that, like fan Centro.
(13:23):
And then there's also this thing that's called a form
or UMT seven form. I think I'm saying that right,
but it's basically where um, you know, if if I
had someone who was I was having sex with on
my only fans, I could have them like validate there
(13:45):
who they are and confirmed that this was consensual and
that they like wanted to be filmed for this. And
it's the same thing that like, yeah, anyway they could
fill that out. It wouldn't not be terribly hard from
my point of view for them to implement something like
that and then no problem. But you know, that's like
(14:09):
one of the major things that the payment process or
that I think it was MasterCard had an issue with
was like, oh, we couldn't we can't validate that these
people wanted to do this and that they're of legal age.
But it's like, okay, but do you know how to
solve that problem? You easily can y um, yeah, very
clearly excuses for this and even like like finding like
(14:31):
they're having trouble finding investors. Are you really know you're not.
There's just the different kinds of investors they want very
very successful app This is just cover for the fact
that they want to be seen as mainstream, even though
they are approaching it at least from where from the
the original trajectory. But they want you know, um more
(14:53):
mainstream users to be attracted crities and influence, right they
want to use it for like, yeah, do your posts
and like cameo stuff or whatever, there are there are
other places for that. Um and like also just the
idea of like we need to play, we need a place,
we need a place for celebrities to go to post
(15:14):
things they can't a going to pay them. How do
we know about them? Yeah, I I want to say
a couple more things about Foster as Sessa as a
part of this conversation, mostly in UM the impact it's
had as we're you know, just context for for some
(15:37):
of this. Like we talked about, you know, the the
original justification with sex trafficking, but it's not like they
don't understand how beneficial places like this are for the
rest of the community. But also the fact that, uh
it doesn't really reduce sex trafficking at all. UM was
(16:01):
bound to just put it underground more right, you know what,
sex trafficking existed before we had the Internet. So it's
interesting how it continues to exist even if you drive
it underground and in fact make it harder to sniff
out together everything. So this is from uh why dot org,
(16:32):
a piece that they put out in the two years
since sex work Advocacy groups have reported a spike in
the number of missing and dead sex workers across the country.
People have reported that more folks are engaging in street
sex work after back Page got shut down. Albert said,
generally speaking, street sex work is more dangerous than the
sort of sex work that was engaged over the internet. Umm,
(16:57):
especially during a pandemic. So totally expecially during a pandemic. Yeah,
it says more than say foster as SESSA has affected
their financial situation negatively. Um of Respondence reported an increase
in the exacerbation of mental health symptoms. And again there
has not been much, if any evidence that it has
(17:20):
reduced sex trafficking and has in fact greatly increase the
negative aspects on everybody else's life. I mean, what I
see is creators who are empowered to sell their own
whatever they're trying to sell on the site, and so
they're like cutting out the middleman, and I know, you know,
(17:43):
and so yeah, I just feel like this. I hate
that the sex trafficking conversation gets so much a part
of this. Yeah, And I'm sorry to bring it up now.
I only do because this has been something on my
mind and watching and as soon as this news broke
it is the first thing I thought was like, well,
time to go back and look at how that worked out.
(18:05):
And nobody's talking about it. We've there's granted there's been
a lot going on, but nobody's talking about this, and like, yeah,
you mentioned the pandemic. I think about I just think
about this effect on so many different ways on this community. Um,
so you've got another month on the platform before these
rules go into effect. Are you continuing for now to
(18:29):
keep going on and do your part? Like are there
has there been any sort of organizing or plan to
push back on this or have you heard about other
sites that are I know that there are other platforms emerging.
There doesn't seem to be like a super attractive alternative yet,
you know. And I mean for me, like, I'm not
(18:53):
super eager to move unless I think that the platform
is gonna, you know, be a good solution. Um I think.
I mean what I've seen in I'm scrolling through the
group now is like mostly people trying to figure it
out and like asking themselves these questions. It hasn't been
(19:13):
that much time, you know. I I don't know because
I'm sort of like in this gray area, like you mentioned,
the things that you can't do on the site, and
like what I do is in that kind of like
vague statement about like we will allow nudity, but you
know what does that mean? Um? So yeah, I don't know.
(19:38):
I'm personally I am like, maybe I can contintinue. Maybe
only fans is going to change something in the next month.
I don't know. There might there might be some learning
from the response, but I can't imagine that it's going
to be enough to protect the entire community that uses
that place. UM uses the site still, it affects their
(19:59):
bottom line and like which by then it'll be well,
everyone will have left, so please come back. We changed
our mind. It's not gonna work. Well, there is a
little bit of that back pedaling already now. Of course,
classic UM workers, we love you, yeah, yeah, yeah, we
(20:22):
never acknowledged you before. But they're putting us like pandemic
commercials like today on this day, we want to honor
our sex workers. You brought us here. UM. Sex work
is real work. Like what are you doing? Are you? Um? Friends?
If you connected with other have you connected with other
(20:45):
creators that use the site? Uh in different ways from yourself?
And if you heard any experiences for them or any
of the the struggles that they're going through because I
am at I know, I know that people depend on
this income and it's going to be a huge law.
Like we we've it's huge. We you know, we did
a whole series on our podcast, um that was our
(21:07):
Comedians of Only Fans series, and you know those girls
made that we were interviewing, We're making a ton of money,
were like planning to buy houses, were like, you know,
making big decisions with this money because it was kind
of life changing and career altering and um. So you know,
(21:28):
those are the same creators that I'm seeing now, like
in our chat group and just you know, in conversation
just being like ah okay, so what do I do now?
You know, and some like one of my friends has kids.
It's like it doesn't just affect these people. It's like
(21:49):
the families and it's like a really big the implications
are huge, and so I don't know, it doesn't seem
to be like there's a solution yet, right, more freaked out.
We're like, you know, people like come together and like
I'm just like my mind's like do someone make a
(22:10):
new one. It's like and own it together and then
like being like being even more in charge of is
a good opportunity if someone is waiting in the wings,
it's developing. It's just about then there's the period of
time of building up a fan base or a base
on a new platform, because it's not like there's it's
(22:33):
easy to get well right, it would require like aside
from like make the app, but like you know, uh
big like larger creators and kind of creators, like coming
together and being like we're because if people moved somewhere,
the people subscribing will move there too. It's just you
guys need to unionize. I agree. I also just think
(22:56):
like I could migrate my I subscribers relatively easily. So
I do think if there is some sort of coordinated like, okay,
at least the girls in for instance, the comedy Hose group,
we're all gonna, you know, plan to migrate our subscribers together.
(23:17):
And then as long as the cut is fine, which
is a huge problem. Most of these places are even
higher they're taking and then it's like why am I
even doing this? You know, So somebody came out with
like another platform and oh this is another thing too.
Only fans hasn't been promoting I mean, they've been getting
a ton of free pr because of sex workers on
(23:40):
the platform, but they haven't been promoting the sex workers
on their platform to their subscribers. Who they promote to
their subscribers or is like a YouTuber like you know,
a chef or you know whatever. It's at this point,
they don't deserve you guys to stick arout. They need
to get their ship together or someone else please fill
(24:03):
this void. Yeah, I mean speaking of the Taliban, isn't
one of the problems that like a replacement to onely
fans would have the fact that, uh, these kind of
moral crusade groups keep going after payment processors and stuff. Absolutely,
that would That was so smooth, Robert, thank you. Wait
to see eamlessly bring it back to that. I'm I'm
(24:26):
a professional, even when I'm actively dying of a stomach virus.
You've done, You've done your job, Go throw up again.
I love that the pandemic has created a world where
you can show up to work sick. Actually, just vi
a zoo. I always showed up sick at work at
the old job. Whenever I would show up and be ill,
I would just walk to Cody's desk first, and you know,
(24:48):
get some fluids on some of his possessions, just wipe
stuff on other stuff. Yeah, exactly. That's that's that's why
we're such That's why we're such close friends. You share,
you share so much together. We share microbiomes exactly, Courtney. UM,
this has been really great chatting with you. Um. Can
(25:08):
you tell us a little bit about your podcast as well?
You mentioned it your podcast rules. Thank you, Sophie. Yes,
thank you guys so much for having me on. I
have a podcast called Private Parts Unknown. It's about love
and sexuality around the world. Uh. Yeah, it's super cool.
We've been to Helsinki, We've been to Mexico City. We
(25:31):
went to Tokyo right before the pandemic. I know, it
was amazing. It was like, that's why I kind of
couldn't believe it when I came back in the bans happening. Um.
And then we just actually took a trip to Belize
and so we're going to start rolling out. How do
I get to be a party your show? I want
(25:52):
to travel places in record podcasts. Pretty cool premise. I
have to say, good job, love that, well well done.
We tried to do that, but we couldn't travel around them. Also,
like our destinations were gonna be like se pack destinations
depressing totally not different, like show leave, hang out and
(26:15):
hang out in new work and listen to Dan Crenshaw
talked to a bunch of like go up to four
years old, Cody. Um, can you tell our listeners also
where they can find you online? Yes, I am at
Courtney Kosak last named Ko c A K pretty much everywhere.
(26:37):
And hey, if you want to sub to my only
fans Coco peep show, hop on that train for the
next month and then maybe further in the future. We'll
see what happens over the course of the next month,
but do it. But I got you for the next
month for sure. So all right, thank you, Courtney. Uh.
And we will be back after this break for more
(26:59):
things together everything, so don't don't and we are back
from that break. Um. Robert is very sick him for
(27:24):
being here. It's only appropriate on the Worst Year Ever
Part two. Um, But we wanted to hear the update
about what's going on in Portland. And I know you
guys talked about it a lot today already, but I
think our listeners are also interested than some stupid ship
happened in Portland if you want to. The episode that'll
(27:45):
be dropping on Wednesday, of it could Happen here was
largely about kind of our critiques of the of the
anti fascist response to this big Proud Boy rally, which
I think is valuable if you're trying to uh analyze
performance and how things could go better. But I think
today we'll kind of talk about on a national level,
what what's been happening in Portland's and kind of where
(28:08):
it fits in. So it's worth noting that the kind
of street clashes between anti fascists and you know, fascists
started in Portland about kind of late two sixteen, um,
a good year or so with something going on in
Sorry there's no way to tell um, but it kicked
(28:28):
off about a year before things happened the United the
Right rally and Charlottesville. UM. And and while kind of
Charlottesville had it's it's horrible violent right wing protests, uh,
and you know, a couple other cities, if a like Kenosha,
I've had protests and counter protests that turned deadly. Um,
it's just kept happening in Portland. It happens all the time.
Happens every every week, really not every week, but like
(28:51):
every every year, like every like the summer is generally
like a right wing groups will come into town and fight,
UM and assault people and and take over chunks of
of neighborhoods and and shoot paintballs at bystanders and stuff.
Was what happened on the twenty two. The total some
cars assaulted, a bunch of people, just kind of ran
rough shot through a heavy like the most diverse neighborhood
(29:14):
in Portland, while the police did nothing. Um. And there's
so because kind of a lot of this started in Portland.
It's been kind of the where these different groups have
tested strategies before bringing them out to other parts of
the country. So um, they started it was where they
kind of started working with law enforcement and building bridges
(29:36):
of sympathy with local police. Um. And you saw that
kind of come to a head on the sixth. In
a lot of ways, it's where they you know, Salem,
an hour from Portland, was the first time one of
these right wing groups physically attempted to breach and take
over a capitol building, just like a week or so
ahead of January six UM. And you know, in recent
(29:57):
weeks you've seen members of Proudy tried to embed with
uh kind of other religious right wing gatherings and kind
of try to camouflage you know, Proud Boys and members
of other extremist groups in in that sort of situation.
Um And so it behooves everyone to kind of pay
attention to what happens in Portland because um it, it
(30:20):
always happens here first, you know. Um, as as goes
por Portland's so goes the nation. And one of the
things we've seen this last week or so is, you know,
everyone knew this was going to be a horrible, violent time.
People started freaking out in Portland about it. A couple
of weeks ago. Anti fascists started rallying and putting together
a counter protest, and the mayor was finally forced to
(30:44):
issue a statement in which he suggested people choose love
and also said the police will take no action to
protect anybody. And they sure did. Um, they sure did not.
And so people were assaulted. Um And and this is
like I'm not actually I when I complained about the
police not doing anything, it is not to say that
I think the solution here is to send the police
(31:06):
in because when the police do come in, they primarily
attack the left wing side uh and and collaborate with
and work with right wing protesters. UM. Part of the
reason why this situation has gotten so bad in Portland
is going on five years now of the police using
kid gloves on these people while they assault folks. UM.
(31:30):
So it gives them all season they feel emboldened. Ye. Yeah,
and that's that's part of the problem. And the solution
to that isn't just give the cops more money, because
like one of the reasons they said they couldn't have
responded in Northeast Portland to this gigantic brawl where proud
boys are just shooting bystanders with paintball guns and macing
people and totaling cars was them that they they there
(31:52):
were so many calls that the police department, who was
all hands that day, was was totally overwhelmed, and it
was like, there's eight d Portland cops. They have two
thirty million dollars a year in budget. UM. They showed
up immediately when a right wing protester started firing on
a crowd UH downtown, which is, you know, an affluent
white part of town. But nothing happens when they when
(32:15):
there's this clash in in northeast in a in a
in the most diverse neighborhood in Portland. It just kind
of puts a lie at everything they've said. And I
think there's this one wonderful moment. We parked right outside
the side of the shooting and there was a big uh.
There was a sign um like a blocker so away
that we came upon that just said choose love. And
(32:37):
like in front of that sign where all the police
cars and stuff as they were like arresting this man
who had fired a handgun into a crowd, and somebody
posted on Twitter, don't choose love, choose level four, which
is like talking about body armor, um, which is, you know,
I think a reasonable statement like that, And it kind
of gets to the heart of what what Portland's had
(32:59):
to do as a result of police failures and local
government failure failures to stop this ship, which is people
have had to come up with their own solution. Those
solutions are very um mixed uh and and certainly in
a lot of cases worthy of criticism. But ultimately people
have been having to work out kind of ad hawc
how to respond to this ship because there's a problem
(33:22):
these folks are coming into town and doing horrible violence.
Um And none of the people whose job it is
to protect citizens have been protecting citizens. Um. So citizens
have have had to try to develop their own measures,
and those have been a variety of things. But like,
at the end of the day, what are you going
to do if your if your government says we're not
(33:45):
going to when these people come to town to beat
the ship out of you, Um, We're not going to
take any action. How's the mood on the ground there
amongst activists. I'm curious because I know, I mean, you've
been so deeply involved with all of these protests in
this whole movement in Portland, and I know that you
(34:06):
were feeling pretty down about things. Yeah, you know, there
was a mix. The good thing, a lot of folks
showed up. Because of so many folks showed up downtown,
they moved their rally to another part of town because
they were scared of all the people that showed up.
It's worth looking at photos of events from two thousand
and eighteen and seeing how much smaller the right wing
gatherings are today. UM So, It's it's not to say
(34:28):
that there hasn't been an impact as a result of
the anti fascist organizing. But it's also there's, um, you know,
the response on the twenty two in particular, had some
notable flaws, including kind of an a a disorganized response
to when ship cooked off in the northeast, where you
had these small groups of people showing up to confront
(34:49):
them and getting you know, beaten very badly. Um, you
didn't have kind of an effective strategy for dealing with
that second gathering. And you also had I think some
of this was just like Portland has had a quieter
summer than a lot of people expected, so when there
was a shooting downtown, folks got all amped up and
started building barricades and doing the things they do at protests.
(35:11):
Were like, all right, time to get ready to uh
defend our our ourselves here, and um, it was this.
You know, I don't have an issue with that so much,
but it was just a matter of like, as someone
who thinks that like a community response is necessary to
these events, Um, there's aspects of the community response that
we got on the twenty two that I thought were
(35:32):
unnecessary and even counterproductive in some ways. And I don't
want to we talk about that again on it could
happen here a lot. UM. But I think in general
one of the issues that UH was present on that
day is that you have a lot of people, as
people have encountered more and more violence personally during these events, UM,
(35:52):
they've gotten kind of desensitized to it. And I think
you've seen a decline in sort of the effective other
strategies people used, UM, and folks kind of defaulting more
and more to like, well, it's time to build barricades
and pull out mace, UM. And it's it's you know,
some of it's just because I think people we're excited
(36:13):
to get a chance to be out in the streets
doing stuff. UM. I think some of it. A lot
of it was just people were really amped up from
the shooting. UM. And you know, there was a in
terms of like the the ineffective or the questionably effective stuff.
I saw. One thing that was very effective was the
the armed anti fascists who responded to the guy firing
(36:34):
a handgun into a crowd. Because there was a single
dude firing a handgun into a crowd, UM, two people
reportedly drew guns to confront him. At least one of
them fired UM. They both took effective cover beforehand. Um.
They both aimed low enough that though their shots missed,
none of them hit windows. They were hitting the base,
like the foundation of a building, so not an area
(36:55):
in which they were likely to go through and hit
other people. UM. And they none of them dumped their magazines.
You know, that's a thing that often happens in stressful situations,
someone just fires the whole magazine very quickly. Um. They
were fairly controlled with the situation. And they were not
firing at a guy who was running away, not firing
at a guy they were They were firing at a
situation in which returning fire was really the only effective
(37:18):
response because he was shooting into a crowd. Um. And
so that part, that part was positive. Um. There were
just also things that I think we're flawed, including kind
of not having a comprehensive way of dealing with the
fact that they moved their gathering to the northeast. That
was just kind of more of an organizational flaw. And
then there's you also get individuals at these events who
(37:39):
are kind of more amped up and aggressive than others,
who did some stuff that that's fucked up. And it
again it's this problem of yeah, that's going to be
a problem with kind of a decentralized, horizontal movement aimed
at community defense. UM. And it's it's a thing that
that movement has to come up with solutions for because
you can't you can't have all of these different kind
(38:00):
of negative trends extending into forever at the same time.
I I don't agree with people who are like as
we just don't show up, because you know, we've seen
in Los Angeles what happens when there aren't large counters
to these right wing events that they've been right wing
protesters has been showing up like outside of clinics, assaulting
cancer patients who are wearing masks, assaulting people outside of
(38:21):
the wee SPA, assaulting people outside of city hall, and um,
you know, assaulting press, assaulting and they they Proud Boys
yesterday or two days ago, assaulted like a bunch of
women in their fifties who showed up, no masks. They
weren't Antifa, they were just showing up with signs to
counter protests. The Proud Boys they got like macedon us
where right in front of the Proud Boy gathering outside. UM.
(38:44):
So it's it's not I I don't agree with people
who are like folks should stop rallying to defend the town.
But it is a matter of like, I think analysis
needs to be had about what's working and what's not,
because I think people people can get emotionally tied to
things that used to work or things that feel like
they should work. Um. And the right is constantly iterating
(39:07):
and adapting their strategies, and that's part of what Portland
is for for them. It's where they try because they
know the police aren't going to do anything. It's where
they try a new strategies out and um, so it
is very important to disrupt them in places like this. Um.
And yeah, it's it's it's just a it's it's a
(39:27):
lot of responsibility for one town. Yeah. And it's you know,
everybody's again, everyone in Portland is a little bit, uh,
a little bit deranged from trauma. I include my Like,
everybody's responses are a little wonky at this point, from
the press down to the doubt, from the press and
the protesters down to like bystanders. Um because even like
(39:50):
the random locals we were talking to had all seen
street fights or in some cases been in them, like
they weren't there to protest they just lived in the
neighborhood and we're like, oh, yeah, well you know to
years ago, I got massed at one of these things.
Trauma is the exact right word, yeah, for everybody living there,
and it in it ratchet, ratchets up the tensions. Well,
(40:11):
and that's a strain that you're carrying around and a
fear of when it's happening next or what's next, because
it's going to happen again. They're there, they're doing shit.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's hard to respond to it.
It sounds like a very difficult environment to be right now. Well,
(40:32):
it is. It's a it's a it's a it's a
nationwide problem and I it is, but you are in uh,
like a specific hotbed of it. But yes, it is. Yeah,
it's it's a nationwide problem, and an un disproportionate burden
for kind of coming up with effective solutions on it
has been put on a bunch of like random people
(40:53):
in Portland, Oregon. Um. And so the fact that there's
been a very mixed uh efficacy in the sponsors people
have come up with is kind of inevitable, you know, um,
because it's it's a difficult it's a difficult thing to
to know how to handle, and I don't. I don't
entirely and know like what the best solution is. This
(41:14):
is kind of a new problem. And even if you
look back at the last society to deal with this heavily,
like you look at um, you know, Vimar Germany as
much as you know, I have respect for the anti
fascists in Germany during that period, and I think there's
the I think people need to learn from them, not
by just emulating them, because at the end of the day, Um,
that ship didn't didn't do the trick, you know. Yeah, Um,
(41:38):
so it's tough. Um, I don't know. That's that's all
I gotta say. That was a good amount. Thank you.
I wouldn't have been able to tell that you're incredibly sick. Yeah,
not at all. I'm horribly sick and about to run
down to my bathroom again. So you guys, sounds like
(41:59):
the episode out good place to face up, yuys. Check
us out online at Worst Year Pod in Instagram and Twitter.
Pray for Robert, Pray for Robert. End of episode everything
so everything so dull Again. I tried. Worst Year Ever
(42:25):
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