Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart
Radio Together Everything. Well, it's the show, and the name
(00:23):
of that show is Holy Shit. Yep, the year Holy Shit.
The year Welcome to Holy Shit, the year the show
where we learned that years happen and are shocked by
this because all of us missed the days in school
where the basics of linear time were explained. I thought
it was a flat circle because my entire education was
(00:44):
a single episode of the first season of True Detective
and one episode it was it's a great education time.
Long time to wait until you can get educated. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I mean seven years ago, right, Yeah, it was not
long ago, Cody. I was in my mid twenties, real,
real indictment of the American education system. But I did
(01:07):
learn to read. Unfortunately, all I can read is cands
of Lone Star's right. That's really been most of what
I've needed. Uh, And I would I would be sponsored
by a Lone Star, except for as a Texan, I
know that Lone Star is the trash Texas beer and
the quality, which doesn't mean I won't drink it, but
(01:27):
not going to advertise for it. I'll advertise for it,
not I have no principles. Um whatsoever? Um, I mean
the only principle we stick to is no brain pills
or baldness cares. Um, it's about it. That's that one's
hard and fast. I will go for a non joke
one and say no diet culture ads please, thank you
(01:48):
turned that down out of the gate. Yeah, we're getting
in trouble with that mistake made this week. Um. Okay,
you know who else is getting in trouble this week?
Internet nationally is the Israeli government for carrying out an
ethnic cleansing. There we go in Gaza and East Jerusalem,
(02:09):
in the West Bank. I'm told they have that right,
though they have the right to defend themselves. Yes, to
defend themselves. It's it's like that can't reach their city.
When I crash my lifted f J cruiser through the
gates of my neighbor's house and start firing a rifle
into the side of his trailer. If he comes out
(02:30):
and throws a rock at me, I have the right
to defend myself. That's an assault upon my person. Um.
What I was doing prior to that assault is I
would argue immaterial Um. Yes, that is for a violence
more or less the argument is for real snaking. I
accept that no questions asked UM, and it's it's one
(02:50):
of those things I think probably before we get into
the nitty gritty we should we can have like a
little bigger picture talk about the overall morality of the
situation UM on both sides. And by saying both sides,
I'm not saying I'm not making a both sides argument
because the death toll is very I mean, like we
we can just we have a little graphic here we
(03:10):
can go over kind of what the death toll has
been in the operation. Since two thousand eight Operation cast Lead,
which lasted twenty three days, fourteen hundred and forty Palestinians killed,
fifty three hundred injured, forty seven thousand houses destroyed or demolished,
thirteen Israeli's killed, five eighteen injured. In two thousand and
twelve Operation Pillar of Defense, a hundred and sixty seven
(03:31):
Palestinians killed, six Israeli's killed, a thousand Palestinians injured, two
hundred thirty nine Israeli's injured, a hundred twenty six houses
destroyed a demolished. In two thousand fourteen, one hundred Palestinians killed,
seventy three Israeli's killed this Operation Protective Edge, which lasted
fifty days, eleven thousand Palestinians injured to seven hundred twenty
Israeli's injured, and twenty thousand houses destroyed or demolished. So
(03:53):
while they're like it's it's like saying saying violent, there's
violence on both sides, is like saying, like somebody starts
firing into your yard and you throw a rock at him.
There is violence on both sides. That is a fact.
It's violent to throw a rock, it's violent to fire
blindly into someone's house. But the proportional to keeople out
of their houses, yes, absolutely violent to uh continue to
(04:17):
do that. Um yeah, it's um, the disparity is very
obviously staggering and um yeah um, and even considering like
all the you know, the defense systems that are in
place to keep that number, um so low compared to
so many things that um, they don't even have in
(04:38):
CAUSI like just the the electricity alone. Um, but they've
been prevented from having what they've been prevented for. Yeah, exact. Yeah,
there's a reason it's often referred to as an open
air prison. Yeah. One of the things that I think
is most telling to me just about the the level
of oppression Palestines live under in is real in general,
(05:00):
um Ramala in the West Bank has more rainfall annually
than London. London gets foun mills of rain per year.
Ramala gets six nineteen millimeters of rain per year. But
Palestinians have virtually no access to clean water, some of
the worst water quality in the planet because it's taken
from them um. And they aren't allowed to build up
(05:22):
any kind of meaningful infrastructure because I don't know, watch
three minutes of bombing footage and that will explain to
you why they don't have that will that that will
explain part of why there's not adequate water infrastructure um so.
And that's one of the things, like I think too often,
even even people who are on this kind of on
the side of Palestinians, when they talked about the violence,
(05:43):
will be like, well, these rockets are don't compare to
the kind of weaponry that Israel has and the death
tolls don't compare. But you're right, Cody, the the violence
goes so far beyond just hamass firing rockets is real
firing missiles. It's it's a pattern of behavior designed to
slowly eliminate the Palestinian population. UM. And most of that
(06:03):
does not involve ordinance. Ordinance is one aspect and kind
of only on the edge of things. The majority of
what the majority of the ethnic cleansing these really state
it enters into UM is logistical. Yeah yeah, UM, so
what kind of violence does that justify from Palestinians? In response, UM,
(06:25):
I don't know. I don't have a hard and fast
answer for you. But if if I'm if I'm in
the same situation watching my friends and family die, UM, starve,
lack have you know, no access to COVID medication, no
access to vaccinations, barely in access to testing, no clean water,
not enough food, um, no opportunities for the future. Would
I feel justified in firing rockets at the people doing that? Yes? Absolutely,
(06:51):
Like I think everybody listening to this show on our
other shows know that I've been preoccupied with a lot
of family stuff. So I am when I let you
guys take lead. But I want to ask some questions
and I do have I have been following It's awful,
but I I want talk to me about Hamas and
the relationship with Palestine and Palestinians, you know, because they
(07:15):
that's complicated part of this as well. Yeah, so the
the gist and I'm hoping this is please don't know
one take this as anything but like the most the
broadest overview. And I've checked and checked my understanding of
this with a with a Palestinian UM colleague, just to
kind of make sure I didn't have it completely wrong. UM.
(07:36):
In the beginning sort of of the Israeli state coming
into being, in the Palestinian resistance to that UM there
was kind of a a a secular and more left
wing resistance to the occupation, and there was a more
religious hardliner resistance to the occupation. And for most of
the history of the occupation, the secular and more left wing,
(07:58):
which has kind of been embodied by the p HELLO,
the FATA party UM yes or Era fat was kind
of one of the and they were there. They had
a number of the and there's were there were different
groups and they kind of were on a scale. So
a lot of them were more Marxist and kind of
their beliefs or at least kind of more sympathetic to
that UM. But that was kind of the dominant chunk
of the resistance, and that really the Israelis saw that
(08:20):
as these really governments saw that as a problem in
part because number one, there were leftist elements of Israeli
UH culture of Israeli politics that could be more sympathetic
with what the Palestines, and we'd be like, well, we don't,
We're we're actually kind of agree with a lot of things.
There's ways we can can come to an accord. And
internationally it gave the Palestinians a lot more um sympathy
(08:43):
where I mean you can want one of the what
places you can see that is kind of these very
long history of of deep solidarity between the Irish, which
have a strong Marxist resist and not not always not
socialist might be a better way to claim it, although
a lot of those were Marxists, but like a strong
left wing anti Cloe ne a militant tradition and a
strong tradition of of of sympathy and even UH like
(09:05):
shared training with Palestinian resistance movements and so in like
I think it was like the sixties seventies um, the
Israeli government started funding, like giving money to the groups
that became Hamas funding the religious hardliners segments of the resistance. Yeah,
and some of them. There's in a good intercept article
(09:26):
by UMU Media Hassan where he quotes sources within the
Israeli governments saying we're we founded Hamas, we made them happen.
And the person I was talking to the Palestinia was like,
that's that's you know, in kind of a fashion he
kind of expected from those from from Israeli government sources
taking it too far, But it is true that they
were doing what the British would do, what all colonial
(09:46):
powers do. Right. You have a population, you don't want
them united in resistance, You foment divisions, you fund whichever
side is kind of more controllable. Um now Hamas, And
that's again I'm not also not trying to be like
I don't like Hamas, but I'm not trying to to
just say like they're a puppet or anything, because I
don't think they are. But there was definitely a goal
(10:06):
to support them over what we're kind of seen as
the more internationally sympathetic chunks of Palestinia resistance by the
Israeli government. Um Hamas has a militant and a political
wing and since two thousand six they have taken control
of public services UM and ministries in Gaza. They were
initially elected, they have not been re elected since because,
(10:27):
as it was described to me, the Palestinian political system
has been frozen in place since two thousand six. They
have not been able to elect any of their leadership
since UM, so they control a lot of social they're
they're they're like Hezbollah in a way, and that like
Hezblah over in Lebanon is a is a militant group,
a militia, a terrorist group. They do all that stuff.
They also run hospitals and schools and stuff. And that's
(10:48):
because if you're trying to do the kind of ship
that hes Blow is doing, trying to do the kind
of ship Hamas is doing. One of the things that
gets the people on your side as you provide them
with social services. And some of that is cold blooded
real polity. Some of it is well, we live here
and these are our family members, and like it's not
I'm really not trying to like be overly simplify it's
it's just it's very broad. There's lots of aspects to
(11:11):
this about what this relationship is between Hamas and Palestinians.
But it does all tie back to what this oppression
has been like for so long. And I think that
this is an element. I bring this up mostly because
I feel like it's missing from a lot of the
conversations about this. Um just a little bit more of
inside about what's been happening and how it got there. Yea.
(11:32):
And if you look at UM even just sort of
Palestinian like opinion of Hamas and their support of of
various attacks and things like that, it can be relatively low.
But then you have an instance where um, so we
we referenced the deadliest numbers from Operation Protective Edge, the
support from OSS was declining at a certain point, and
(11:55):
then this thing and support for them grew. And that
probably has something to do with the fact that you're
living in this place and you have this bloody conflict,
and who is the only entity that's like protecting you
in any sort of way. Yeah, Like it makes sense
(12:16):
that you would there would be growing support for what
you might see as like literally the only thing between
you and death. Right. Yeah, It's like if I am
firing blindly in the side of my neighbor's house after
driving my FJ cruiser through their fence, and their neighbor,
a convicted sex offender, runs over with body armor to
(12:36):
give them to protect them from my blind fire. They
may not like that neighbor, but in the moment, he's
offering them the only kind of assistance they're going to
get because I've cut their phone lines. Yeah that makes sense. Yeah,
it's it's hard to like don't want to like simplify
it too much, but like like if you if you
take if you take a situation and remove it from
(12:58):
any sort of like context that we know or emotional
feelings or anything like that, and you rename them, uh,
you rename every like each faction, and you just look
at it and the disparity going on and the situation
being dealt with, it's be it seems much simpler. And um,
I don't know, I just think ethnic cleansing is bad.
(13:19):
I yeah, I too think ethnic cleansing is bad. And
I do think one of the things that gets talked
a lot about this is the complexity of the situation,
which you just touched on a little And um, I
we have an episode behind the Bastard's Coming Out that
touches on this a little bit next week. But kind
of one of the conversations I was having there is
I think there's two sides of the this is such
(13:39):
a complex issue. Think there's the kind of bad faith
actor side, which is this is which is basically like
if you and I, this is one reason I hadn't
covered it. More is that times when I would speak up,
I would get screamed at by like all these squads
of Israelis and stuff online who would who would point
out things that like I just hadn't prepared for things
I didn't know and be like what about this? What
about this? And it's like, well, I don't know, I
don't I'm not in mentioned the politics of the region. Um.
(14:03):
And it's the same thing like you'll see when you
talk about Rojava with Turkish folks on the internet. I'm
just better versed in that situation. And that's one of
those things that if you're if you're well meaning, um,
but you're not well versed in the situation coming into this,
you can get overwhelmed with all of these counter arguments
that are based on data you don't have at your hand,
(14:24):
and that can make you not reticent to weigh in
on the topic. The bad faith actors. Side of this
is people who don't want anyone to talk about it
and argue like, well, you shouldn't talk about it if
you don't understand, And then the list all of these
different historical things that you don't need to understand to
know ethnic cleansing going on bad, right, which is what
you need to know right now. Um, It's true. It
(14:46):
is an incredibly complicated conflict in terms of the history,
in terms of all of the different groups involved, the politics,
even just just the matter of Zionism, right, um, and
all of the different strains of Zionism that contributed to Israel.
And the fact that prior to one of the things
I didn't know until very recently is that there was
a meaningful, obviously not dominant, chunk of Zionism prior to
(15:07):
the establishment of the State of Israel UM that was
anti state. Um. The Jewish labor boond Um I believe
they were called, and they were very much spoke out
during the Knockba spoke out against the ethnic cleansing, said
this is only going to come back on us, like
this is going to lead to more violence, this could
this will destroy us if we keep doing this, We're
just going to wind up doing two Palestinians what was
(15:30):
done to us in other parts of the world. Um,
and that kind of that kind of evil will come
back on us. I think one of the quotes was, um,
your state will destroy our nation. Um. So there was there,
there was even within kind of the Zionist movement because
and I think this is one of the things Zionists
movement generally we translate that as Jewish people who believe
they should return to Israel and have a state in Israel.
(15:53):
There was a chunk of it where it was more
of a spiritual thing. I think Jewish people should move
to and live in Israel, but we don't need to
have a state. I think we just have a right
to to also live in the land of our ancestors.
And there were a number of prior to the establishment
of Israel of of Palestinian uh citizens, prominent citizens who
were supportive of that. In fact, the Hebrew University in Jerusalem,
which was the first college. You know, it predates Israel,
(16:15):
but it was the first college in Israel, was established
with a grant from a Palestinian family um who were
supportive of the idea of like of course come back here,
like as yeah, you know, um, yeahs you start making
it like, I mean, an ethno state. What's the conclusion
of that? Like, what what the what does that lead to? Exact? Um,
(16:36):
it's um that sort of thing should I feel like,
should be more obvious? Um. All of that is incredible.
There's a complex history of how we got here and
what's happening. But this, but again, what we're seeing right
now is also quite simple, you know. And how this
(17:00):
conflict start, well, by the force eviction of hundreds of
Palestinians from their home started. I mean, that's that's this
most recent that was the most recent, and I think
it was. My understanding is it was a mix of that,
the evictions and shake Jahre and a a right wing
nationalist Israeli march on the outlox of March. It was
(17:23):
kind of both of those things, but also pointedly you know, yes, yeah,
but with a purpose and this you know, the results
of what's happening are not unexpected from those choices, from
those acts, you know, so we know what's happening, we
see it. This is you know, the culmination of a
lot of complexity, but also very simply a purposeful action
(17:47):
from the Israeli government. Yeah, I mean what's happening is
I think very intentional. I think the people who I
think there were a lot of people involved in the
Israeli government, um and involved in different of also civilian,
kind of militant Zionist organizations who knew that this would
provoke um more violence, which would bring more Hamas rockets,
(18:10):
which would justify a vastly um greater Israeli military commitment,
which would further, it would kill more Palestinians, it would
force more of them to leave Gaza, would make it
less inhabitable, It would further you know, the ethnic cleansing
that's been going on since or earlier. I mean you can,
you can even earlier, and we would allow it. Yeah,
(18:31):
and we would allow it because we always will. Um. Yeah,
I mean well we all know. I mean well, I
mean it is important to note we haven't always been
Israel's main military backer. Um. The Soviet Union actually contributed
a hell of a lot to the establishment of Israel
and forty eight, and although they stopped supporting them pretty quickly,
(18:51):
it was the French for like twenty something years after
that who sold them the advanced weapons systems. We didn't
really start giving a lot of gun ship to Israel
until like the late sixties, and then after Nixon left office,
under Gerald Ford froze because of Israel did a bunch
of illegal ship. Ford froze temporarily froze military UM exports
(19:15):
to Israel UM. And that is what led to because
this is this was happening when net and Yahoo was
starting to get prominent and was like starting to work
as essentially a pr man for the Israeli embassy. UM.
That really led to a dedicated policy from the Israeli
government of building sympathy with American civilians to make it
(19:37):
a to make it politically impossible to freeze military aid
Israel UM and it's been extremely successful. They're they're the
pr wing of of the Israeli government. Whatever you want
to call them, is exceptional at what they do. UM yeah, Yeah,
they're really good at They're really good at posting. Yeah,
they're great posters. Some good means this week are the
(19:58):
interesting uh you noted this recently. They they're very good
at posting UM about how much they fear for their uh,
for their lives and things in UM in English and
UM and posting about that kind of thing. And then
whenever they post an Arabic it's sort of mocking the destruction,
(20:21):
the interesting that they engage in, like that one. What
did that means? Say? I never looked it up of
the before after yeah, the blowing up of the building
with the yeah, and now we have um you know,
even now there's I think there's more resistance to this
and like our relationship, um and support of what's going on,
(20:43):
but um, you have you now like Biden eventually calling
for a ceasefire, but the specifics of it, not even
calling supporting it, supporting it. On a call with net Yahoo,
he's saying, it sure would be nice if everyone stop
shooting at each other. But I will take yeah because
(21:05):
they with the clarification, is that supporting a ceasefire if
both parties are open to it, yes, which is like
not congian worth considering if you if you actually believe
in in stopping the violence. Uh, Like I think the
violence has stopped if both of them, if ever, if
everybody wants it to um and you know they are
(21:29):
old quotes of him talking about how if if if
Israel didn't exist, we would have to invent Israel for
our interests. Um. Yeah, I mean, and it's one of
the angles of this propaganda campaign is this, because you
you'll see a lot of like gay gay Palestinians will
like speak up against what's happening, and people will be like, well,
if you were in the state that Palestinians want, you know,
(21:49):
you'd be executed for being gay. And the the idea
and the kind of correlarity to that as well. Israel's
much more, uh, you know, is just like a normal
Western country. And this gay marriages legal in Israel, they
were recognizing, they recognize it if you get married outside
of Israel, but you cannot get married there. Um um.
(22:09):
And I'll also note, given how progressive a huge chunk
of the Palestinian liberation movement was, had there not been
all of these years of violence and this free feeding
frenzy for the religious right among the Palestinians, perhaps that
situation would be would be doing better. Um. It certainly
(22:30):
hasn't been helped by what Israel has done. We have
to take a quick break. I think you know who
also recognizes gay marriage. Whoever product Lone Star beer, Lone
Star beer, Well, yeah, shiner Bach, I think is pretty woke,
(22:52):
um shiner Bach. Uh. Gay as hell. That's that's their
mottogether everything. We're back, We're back, and I'm drinking my
(23:14):
favorite were Beverage Lemon Lime twist Zvia like freshing one
of the I think, oh it's so good. I just
had a nice long run with a dog I'm fostering,
and um, it really hits the spot. Really a nice
little soda pop to rehydrate yourself. I tried to give
some to the dog, but he's a dog and doesn't
understand soda and not not good, not good for dogs.
(23:37):
But it's a good choice. I think Stevie is good
for everything. Katie. I don't know where have you read that?
Um in Stevia? Did you? Did you write that down
and then read it? Advocates monthly. Yes, it's terrible for
my digestion. Whenever I eat something with like fake sugar.
Oh that this isn't fake, it's it's real. It's a
plant sweet. It's sweet enough. You can give another chance anyway.
(24:04):
Enough about that, enough about that. Other things awful? Um Yeah, yeah,
it seems like it's going to continue. And I mean
they level level A hospital earlier. Oh yeah, they killed
the the head of Palestines. Um COVID nineteen response decorated
(24:26):
neurosurgeon and his entire family in an air strike. Yeah,
there's just a lot of them, and they blocked the
road with an air strike. The blocked the road to
the hospital with an air strike first. Um, which some
might call purposefully targeting medical. Just a lot of works,
more crimes, hospitals, the press apartment building. Yeah, sure, seems
(24:58):
like not targeted Hamas but a civilian. And it's just
the same old sort of like approach because like you
get like, okay, um, like the I mean, the human
shield thing is so frustrating. First of all, Israel is
his human shields as well. Yeah, I mean, it's it's
It is one of those questions where it's like, okay,
so you you're saying it's it's you. Israel are saying
(25:19):
that you can strike these civilian targets because military targets
are embedded them. Well, your entire civilian population are are
basically veterans or active service and can be called up
to serve. Does that not make every civilian target in
Israel also a military target? Um? If that's that's not
the argument I would make, because I don't think it's
(25:39):
good to strike civilians. But if we're if we're judging
Israel Israel by the same standards they're judging Palestine, UM,
then yeah, what Hamas is doing is is just fine.
Is Jim Dandy by the standards Israel's using in their
own strikes. Um. Yeah, it's very frustrating to see that, Um,
the sort of just justification like that and just sort
(26:00):
of like waving you know, it's even like progressed like Okay,
well it's human shields. Well they know the human shields. Therefore,
like it's like it's okay, maybe they're like maybe they're
asking for maybe they're doing it on purpose, and it's
just like this is it's just a bizarre, disgusting way
to talk about civilian casualties when also it's it's like, um, personally,
(26:23):
I would say, don't shoot the human shield. Yeah, yeah,
here's the thought I would say. You know, one of
the things about having um the the Iron Dome and
having incredibly advanced, first class military hardware and doctrine is
that maybe you should be able to protect your population
(26:46):
without massively leveling an entire city. Like if Israel's response
to all these rockets was to hunker down and defend
their population and then maybe blockade roads afterwards and stuff.
And they weren't launching missiles, would they would have a
lot more sympathy. They would be like, Oh, look, only
one side's firing rockets. We're just using her. That's not
what they would ever do, the fire rockets. They want
(27:10):
them to fire the rockets so they have a reason
to disproportionately react. Yeah, it's massive retaliation. Um, you know,
and it's uh, the whole situation is just it's very frustrating. Um,
it's very frustrating. And like, I've been thinking a lot
about how effective Israeli propaganda has been in the United
(27:33):
States because I was subject to a huge amount of
it when I was a kid. Um. I can remember
in school learning about the nineteen seventy three yam Kapur War,
which was it was kind of it was it was
it was framed as the same thing as like the war,
all of these Arab nations simultaneously invaded Israel, and We're
going to wipe it out and kill everybody, and they,
through sheer stick, tuitiveness and gumption and courage, managed to
(27:57):
fight off, you know, against incredible odds. And I recently
watched a really good documentary on Al Jazeera called The
October War UM that is very even handed, talks to
a number of veterans on both sides, and for the
very first time realized, like, oh, they didn't win that one,
Like that wasn't a victory for Israel. Egypt actually like
they I mean, the Syrians definitely lost, but Egypt kind
(28:19):
of one. They took land back, they defeated Israeli forces
in the field and fought them to a sand standstill elsewhere. Um.
And it was it's just and I you know, I
had I had come around to the Palestinian side of
things before, but I still had never never thought to
re examine the basics of even what I learned about
military history in that region. Um. Because all like and
(28:43):
I think one of the reasons one of the things
the Israelis have done that's very smart when it comes
to propagandizing to Americans is they focused on the military
dimension of things. Because if you if you just start
paying attention to the active fighting, um, you kind it's
hard not to be sympathetic to the Israelis because they
(29:03):
have a fascinating military with really interesting doctrine that has
been very successful for interesting reasons, and they make like
it's what if you're a military history nerd, even without
thinking about like why the fighting is happening right and wrong,
it's easy to just kind of tunnel into learning about
the strategies and the different things these special forces units
have done, and like how they were able to so
(29:23):
successfully destroy the Egyptian UH and Syria I think with
Gypsum and Syrian air forces during the Six Day War.
All that you can, you can nerd out over all
that stuff and kind of without thinking wind up um
sympathetic to Israel, without ever considering what also happened, what
happened in between the wars, why the wars were being fought,
(29:45):
the degree to which things like the years of attrition um,
and all these kind of like insurgent campaigns the Israelis
waged against their neighbors like fed into it um. And
it's it's very smart because Americans see soldiers who look
our soldiers um and cool military ship, and a lot
of us won't think about anything beyond that. Even though
(30:07):
if you were to strip what's happening in Palestine of
its of its of its locational context and just describe
the fight to the average dude living out in the
sticks that would be sympathetic to the Palestinians because they're
the they're they're the underdogs, they're the people. Yeah, just
look just like the map over decades and decades. Do
(30:29):
you think to state solution is even possible? Jesus, I don't.
I mean I think a question. I think the existence
of states is a big part of the problem here, right, Um.
But well, two states would just make an official war
between the two states, right, they would just cause more Um.
(30:51):
Like this, this idea of states is like part of
part of the problem. Um. And I'm not going to say,
like I know how to solve it. Um. But that's
that's not Yeah, that's just not a thing that I
think is um. It is in my opinion, in that
way of thinking about it. If i'm if I'm being asked,
(31:15):
like what I think could improve the situation. Some of
it would be an end to the legal justifications for apartheid.
There are a bunch of Palestinians who are Israeli citizens.
They do not have the same rights as Jewish Israeli citizens.
Change that, UM, give Palestinians citizens the right of return
(31:36):
um to the communities they were kicked out of. Make
it illegal to have these villages and other communities that
are are Jewish only. And there's a bunch of them
in Palestine, often in villages that were Palestinian villages taken
over during the nakba. UM. So I know that, And
obviously that wouldn't solve everything. That wouldn't maybe not solve anything.
But I think just from from a basic stance of
(31:58):
what's the right thing to do, Um, well, stop but
number one stopped selling weapons to Israel. They've got enough weapons, um.
And number two make it like Corvett, the at them
as an international community until they actually give Palestinians equal
rights under the law. Um, and see where that goes.
(32:19):
It seems like a good place after one step one,
no apartheid anymore, Yeah, I would say, in the Indo
parteime like it is. I don't know how to solve
the whole problem, but ending apartheid and not no longer
giving who are what is already a first class military power,
tens of billions of dollars in military aid, those two
things seem pretty simple and doable. Um. And then we
(32:42):
can kind of see what happens. Um. You know, I
think I just like you have all these you know,
such a long old conflict and such a such a history,
and too sort of try to solve it by doing
(33:02):
the same old kind of thing. Uh seems like not
very helpful, and um, you know, ultimately the borders we
make are meaningless, um and uh, the way to move
forward is to become closer together, um and not to
(33:22):
be crashed fuck each other and like live your lives.
And just like you know, generationally, every generation the generous
Raeli government heavily restrict heavily like misgenation is like legally
discouraged basics exactly, and like the like you if you like,
you know, every generation gets closer together and more accepting
(33:44):
and all these sort of like history and the conflicts
melt will melt away, as opposed to being like, well
now it's now you got you got your country, you
got yours, everything's fine. Uh, it's it's just like building
a wall between uh something, and then it gets worse
and or and worse over. Everybody's gonna get mad at
me for asking that question, but it is the thing
(34:05):
that people keep talking about. And I love, I love
this conversation and where it's going. Well, you know, I
think one of the again, one of the things that
is used to shut down productive discussion about what's happening
in Palestine is well, how would you solve it? And
like if you don't have a ready made solution like okay, well,
how do you make the two state things where well,
the Palestinians aren't going to how do you agree on things?
Like okay, let's take all of that out of your
(34:27):
question equation, Let's stop the Israeli state from being an
apartheid state. Let's like remove the legal restrictions on Palestinians,
give them a right of return at least equal to
what Jewish Israeli's have UM, And that's a thing you
can do. I don't know how to solve the whole problem.
(34:47):
I don't know how to fix um what is now
three quarters of a century of um escalating violence and
ethnic cleansing. But I know where it starts, and it's
by not having apartheid legally codified in law. Off UM.
So let's I mean that there. That would be my suggestion,
and hasn't worked. Stop apartheid, stop the settlements and the occupation.
(35:09):
It's legal occupation, internationally recognized as the legal occupation. Yes,
stop the illegal occupation. And again it's one of those
you don't have to know how to fix the whole problem,
to fix some of the problems, to fix the most
obvious problems, the glare, the glaring problems. It's not a
(35:29):
justification for allowing the atrocities to continue. Yeah, Well, that's
often the game with stuff like that, Right, it's too
sort of like, well, throw your hands up though, because
you don't. You can't. You can't tell me step by
step every single thing that should happen. So throw your
hands up, and uh, consider the issue unsolvable and just
let it continue. Yeah, And that's what the people who
(35:50):
benefit from the situation as it currently stands once. It's
the same reason why they will try to get people
to stop talking about the issue if they don't have
a complete and scally grasp of the entire history of
the conflict at all the different sides, is because the
goal is the longer you delay any kind of productive discussion,
the more people you kind of frighten or discourage from
(36:14):
participating in the discussion or from urging things one way
or the other. The longer this all goes on, and
the more accomplished, the ethnic cleansing becomes um it's called
cancel culture. It's called cancel culture, and we hate it.
We hate it, folks. I think we can take you know,
(36:35):
I think you can take a head. You know what
does know how to solve the crisis in Palestine? No, No,
alutely not. I'd be willing to bet you if you
ask Lone Star Beer's opinion on the situation Palestine, it
would get pretty racist and like comprehensively racist. Like Lone
(36:59):
Star Beer definitely least supports Israel. But in a way
that's racist, Yeah, in a very like it's very obviously racism.
But we still would take their ad money. I mean,
I mean, Lone Star Beer once is to exist for
the rapture, right, Yeah, that's probably that seems like a yeah. Yeah.
Lone Star Beer invested a lot of money in trying
(37:21):
to breed that special uh cow that they can sacrifice
on the Temple mount Um in order to ring in
the apocalypse. So by their beer together everything, we're back.
(37:46):
Why are we We're solving it. We've did it, We've
done It's solved the crisis. We did what Jared couldn't
what did what did Jared Kushner do seems like fixed?
Well that was Trump, right. Trump was the guy whose
call it was to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of
(38:08):
Israel again the embassy maybe his Jared's idea? Who knows
he did win an award, doesn't That doesn't seem right?
Man in America? Okay, roast dude, Okay, yeah, I mean
that's what brought us. Are you saying you'd rather if
you're saying rather Donald Trump than Jared God damn it.
There's no way to win or Donald Trump Junior? Alright,
(38:32):
I Trump, he did not win. You have to admit
that Kushner is more fusible than Donald Trump and Trump
j and that Scott an invitation. He is more fusible
than all of the Trump boys. Um, is that really?
Is that really something? To be happy? You're the one
that brought it up, gave him the award, trying to
(38:55):
be funny. It didn't if Gene Hackman, Like theoretically, if
Gene Hackman were to um gas attack an entire Walmart
and then strapped the people in the Walmart with bombs
and forced me to have sex with either Jared Kushner,
one of the Trump boys, or Donald Trump himself, Um,
in order to save the denizens of that Walmart, I
(39:17):
would pick Kushner, Like, if that was the choice I
had to make, That's the choice, objectively, the right. Yeah,
but I wouldn't enjoy it, and I would take my
vengeance on Gene Hackman even more readily than I'm already
planning to take vengeance on Gene Hackman. Not a babe, certainly, No,
(39:40):
not a single member of that administration. UM even verged
on what about Nuchen, what about let's let's go, let's
be fair, especially especially Manuchen. I mean, we've all got
our taste, and my taste is manut. The closest, closest,
(40:02):
the closest de fuckable in that in that administration was
Mike Flynn. M because he's because he's he's he's out
of his goddamn mind, and that's kind of hot sometimes. Um,
you know, you never know he's gonna do. Yeah, that
lunatic sex, Oh boy, that that honestly believes nobody, no, no,
(40:25):
there hangs in the bushes. Really, it's really hard to
be imagining all these people having sex right now. It's unwitting.
I don't even think spicery like Sean Spicer isn't even
a virgin because calling him a virgin would imply the
possibility of him having sex. Yeah, well, everybody's appetite. Yeah,
(40:52):
imagine like going to a party and it's one of
those things where you've got to eat sushi off of
somebody's body. But it's Sean Spicer, I know. Horrible, horrible,
Like Steven Miller. That was bad, Katie, that was bad. God. Yeah,
I imagine the fish would spoil as soon as it
touched Miller's body. Yeah. Yeah, he's part of the problem
(41:15):
here in Santa Monica. He walks in the ocean and
all the fish rides to the surface. That's exactly to
the topic that went far off. Okay, so Jared didn't
solve it. We did, we did, did we? No? Absolutely no,
one's no no, no, no, no, no, no no. Um.
(41:35):
But yeah, I don't know. As we record this. UM
in the occupied West Bank, Israeli forces killed four Palestinian
protesters during demonstrations UM. Two Palestinians were killed during the
general strike after they were shot in the chest, and
another protester diet after being shot in the head. The
Palestinian Red Crescent says its teams have treated more than
(41:56):
a hundred fifty people in Jerusalem and the West Bank,
including thirty five with live bullet wounds and over eighty
from tear gas inhalation. UM. The Palestinian authority says that
Israeli forces have killed twenty four Palestinians in the West
Bank since t UM. Palestinians were shot by live ammunition
nearing the legal Israeli sediment bite l UM. And of
(42:17):
course a lot of the violence is being done not
just by by paramilitaries, you know, by paramilitaries and at
least one case wearing fucking punisher skull patches um and
really kitted out like fucking proud boy types UM. Because
that's I mean there and there's a there's a huge
amount of interchange between those communities. UM. And uh, you're
(42:39):
you're seeing these groups, these these paramilitary groups in Israel
being allowed to do a lot of things that our
own paramilitaries want to do. UM. But in the case
of Israel, what they're doing, I mean, there have been
some of these people have been arrested UM for shooting Palestinians,
but not most of them. UM. And it's uh, it's
only going to get more stream because that I mean,
(43:01):
for one thing, UM, Israel has the most conservative young
population in the Western world, like incredibly strong right wing,
basically a non existent left wing, about eight percent of
the electorate. UM. And that's one of the things when
I think about, like, how can this actually get fixed?
International condemnation could I think matter, especially if it led
(43:24):
to economic consequences and a lack you know, a cessation
of weapons being still sold to the State of Israel,
that would have an influence. But at the end of
the day, most of the Israeli population is broadly supportive
of what's happening. UM. And I don't know how you
fix that. UM. That's the thing that's scariest is how
(43:45):
comprehensive a lot of the Likud party, which is you know,
net Yahoo's party, the right party, how comprehensively they dominate
a lot there. And it's not to wash away the
the dissidence within Israel. In fact, there was just a
big this weekend, a march of I don't it looked
like a hundred or so um Israeli anarchists marching against
(44:06):
the violence in Gaza and the West Bank. And there
absolutely is a peace movement within Israel, but they have
been UM basically for twenty of the last twenty five years,
been getting their asses kicked electorally. And I don't know
how to UM. I don't know how to turn that
ship around. I certainly don't. I do know, I don't, UM.
(44:30):
And one of the problems is like the fact that
you have to serve in the I d F UM,
which UH inculcates a lot of people into that culture.
And also, like I knew UM the first Israeli guy
I ever like befriended the student named Yoni that I
met in India. UM had just like I wasn't sure
if he was ever going to get to go back,
if he was ever going to go back home, because
(44:52):
he had fled the country to travel around the world
rather than join the I d F. Like he was
keep you from being able to go back, Yeah, I mean, well,
I mean you would have he would have to serve
a term in prison or something. I don't actually know
what one wound up happened to him, but we hung
out for a few months, UM, And it was one
of those things I did not have a particularly strong
political understanding, but the way he framed was just like
(45:13):
I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to
do the things that I would have to do if
I was in the I d F UM, and this
would have been this would have been right around um,
right after Operation Pillar of Defense UM and right before
Operation Protective Edge. And so he was just kind of, um,
you know, a dissident. But also because you know what
(45:35):
it takes to be a dissident. There, I think is
part of why. Um. It's it's hard. You know, you're
you're you're giving up a lot to uh, you know,
not just in terms of like the fact that you'll
have to do time in jail, but like, um, you're
so marginalized. Again, it's like eight percent of the electorate. Um.
(45:57):
And that's that's a lot to ask, uh somebody to do.
Most people don't have that kind of moral courage in
any society. UM. So I do, like I have nothing
but the greatest respect for those Israeli anarchists marching against
their government. You know that that takes Uh? Yeah, well
(46:19):
is that it for us today? If we resolved it,
we should talk. We're gonna talk a little bit about Gates, right.
We could end this on on Gates Gate a little
bit of a fun fun note. Yeah, I mean we
could also in with the joke that Biden told today
about Israel and Palestine. You mean apriate that Trump ship
(46:40):
he pulled earlier. Ye, but I didn't see this, I've
been so this is from Matt Visor. Matt Visor, white
house reporter for the Washington Post. So he tweeted this
out early today. Biden's been at a Ford factory test
driving their electric vehicles. Right. Um, so he's test driving
one of them, was like an electric for one. As
Biden was test driving a Ford f onefty reporters asked
(47:00):
if they could inquire about Israel. No, you can't, he
said the appooler Alex Thompson. Not unless you get in
front of the car. As I step on it. I'm
only teasing. Biden said, okay, here, we're ready to go.
Here we go ready, and then he floored it. Um right,
the crowd and over people. Very good, very very fun
funny man. We love our funny president. We love we
(47:23):
love our funny president. Um. I didn't set It's just
like the most progressive president we've ever had. I mean,
he's certainly is the most talked about this on the
(47:43):
other show. Yes, he is, but also other things we're saying.
So if I'm saying, why, what, what use is it
that our president is test driving cars? I'm sorry? I mean,
what use was it for Trump to get in that
truck and scream like a big boy? That was the
only thing he did. I liked because his his attitude
(48:05):
is exactly what mine would be driving a similar car. Yeah,
I don't know. I kind of like when he walked
onto Air Force One with toilet paper dangling off his shoes.
That I like. I like when he stared at and
pointed at the sillary clips literally when someone screamed, don't
look at it. That was pretty good. You're right now.
(48:26):
That was our funny little president. I liked when he left. Yeah,
that was good too. Yeah. And yeah, let's talk about
Gates Gate as which is different from the Bill Gates
Gates but well but both of them are do probably
involve sex with underage? Yeah, very similar. Gates. Yeah, so
(48:52):
always the person you kind of might suspect still in office, Gates.
I mean, it's one of those things. A lot of
like folks further on the left have been like saying,
this is part of the you know, you have the
kind of Blue Q and on ship where people are
expecting Trump to go to prison and you know, all
of his his family and like this wave of arrests
(49:14):
that are never going to get like like I think
he'll probably continue to get sued, he may lose a
bunch of money as a result of lawsuits. Nobody's putting
him in prison. It's not going to happen. It should
have happened, but it's not. Um, And people are lumping
in what's happening with Gates to that like, oh, he's
never going to actually get arrested, And I don't know
that I agree with that. Um, yeah, I think that, Um,
(49:37):
there seems to be quite a bit there and the
guys like his buddy flipping on him. Yeah, it seems
pretty significant. Um, I don't all like that's yeah. I
I get the you know obviously, like most people don't
face consequences, and I get the desire to be like
don't don't like, don't have any hope that that will happen,
(50:02):
because you probably, I mean, but it really does seem
like he's in he's it really does, um, And he's
just like he's just like flying through it. He's just
like posting he's it's like it's not, nothing's happening, but
it really does seem like blows my mind. Well that's
the move, right, that's the move that usually works. You post,
you post through it, you don't, you don't. Uh, you
(50:23):
say either the lying media, But I don't know, is
your buddy lying to? Are the VENMO receipts lying? Um?
Veneral receipts don't lie, Cody. There seems to be. And
maybe it'll wind up that he doesn't. They can't catch
him on actually having sex with a minor. Maybe there's
just not any way to prove that. But like, it
definitely looks like he was trafficking women, like he was
(50:48):
paying for sex and transporting people across state lines to
pay for sex, which on its own carries some time. UM.
Not that I think it should be illegal to do that,
but it is is um and he would certainly publicly
say that it should be. UM wanting you know, he
rails against uh, you know, mandatory, like he wants mandatory
(51:11):
drug test for anyone getting welfare and things like that. Well,
you're doing drugs, buddy, Yeah, he's definitely doing a bunch
of coke and ship next to see. Yeah, but like
the stuff coming out has been fun because he sounds like, um,
all of the worst people I partied with when I
was twenty, But he's in his forties and in Congress, right,
Kates Kushner Kushner, Yeah, I think it has to be. Yeah,
(51:36):
we'll get him a trophy that says most fuckable person
in the least fable group of people ever assembled. Oh
that's nice. That's a nice one. That because maybe we
could do some sort of merch along those lines. Huh yeah,
m hm. Anyways, this sucks, so yeah, I have hope
he'll go to jail. I hope so for X changing
(51:59):
money for naughty favors, as he phrased it, Yeah, for
naughty favors. Definitely. That's just the example of him not
pretending to not take it seriously. Yeah. Yeah, Um, I
think this is one of the few cases where it's
like maybe maybe he's not going to get through this. Yeah,
And he's doing all this America First stuff with Marjorie
Taylor Green where it's like, so like that's the only
(52:22):
person who's like willing to chill with you anymore. Um, Yeah,
I don't know. All right, we did that just you
Can we just end it on you? You to Ethnic Cleansing,
you to Matt big thumbs down. Yeah, you guys are
(52:48):
some big thumbs up. Big thumbs up. Listeners, Listeners, y'all
rock Put that thumb up there, shut that thumb right
on up. Yeah, get that. I'm in there wiggling around
again because it's so good. Thumbs up, what are you
talking about? And so dumb everything so dump it's got
(53:17):
to get I tried d Worst Year Ever is a
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