The Evolution of Elizabeth Warren

A deep dive into Elizabeth Warren's upbringing, career in education, politics, and her plans.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart
Radio Together Everything. So don't wow, everybody see what? So what?

(00:23):
Oh my gosh, it's us us on the radio on
the podcast. What's the name of our show? Our name
show was is Worst Year Ever? Welcome. I'm Cody Johnston,
I'm Katie Stole third, I am also around and exist.
I am your your local daredevil reporter Robert Evans, who

(00:46):
has started this recording with an almost empty battery on
my recorder. So am I Am I braver than the troops? Yes,
obviously there's a fine line between bravery and insanity, and
you walk that line, Robert Daily, and I'm like, yeah, exactly.
I like how right before this you were like, I
think my battery will last for their entire recording, But

(01:07):
then when we started, you were like, oh, by the way,
it's almost dead. So we'll see what happens if we
exaggerating your danger is the better part of valor. And
so we are suddenly without Robert halfway through. You know, why, um,
what are we talking about this week? Guys? I know
the answer, but our listeners they might probably because it
probably says it on the title what are we talking about?

(01:30):
Because I wrote a random essay. I just flipped to
a page in the dictionary. I get towing that line
between bravery and insanity. I'm excited for an entire essay
on a word in the dictionary that's a cody. For
a while, was writing songs that way. I want to
click random on Wikipedia and then write a song about it. Yeah,

(01:51):
but but today we are here to discuss Elizabeth Warren,
Paul Montgomery Warren and right. Uh and I'm I'm excited
about it. Good, you know what. Excellent, We're all excited
about it. We're um, we're all uh uh in this

(02:11):
episode secretly for in Warren. There it is. There's this logan.
I thought it was Warrenita Files Warren east Is born
to Warren. Yeah, there we go, there we go. Don't
no no notes in perfect Um, Well, I am going

(02:33):
to be starting with a bis Okay, So first I
was with a bit. See. At first I was irritated
for being interrupted, but that was worth it. And so
it's fine, everybody, everybody be okay with the fact that
he just a man, a white man, just interrupted the

(02:56):
only female host on this show. I have to say,
as a white man, I think the only time interrupting
is justified is when you have a joke as good
as that. I agree. I agree with you both completely.
Elizabeth would be Elizabeth. All of these are good Elizabeth.
You're welcome to it, and you're also welcome to born

(03:20):
to warrant you know, all of it whichever. Um. But Yes,
as I was saying, I am starting off this episode
talking about her early life because I think it comes
as no surprise to anybody in this room or our
listeners that I'm probably the one that's the most pro Warren.
So I thought that would remove some of the conflicts

(03:42):
of interest. Um, I'm still fair and balanced in all
of that. But yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna start off
by talking about her origin story. You guys ready for this,
I'm so ready. It's a story she reverences a lot
on the campaign trail. I'm sure a lot of you
know it or no pieces of it, but it is
important information in understanding her and where she comes from,

(04:03):
so we're covering it anyway. I will say that I'm
a little bit tired of her talking about it. Uh.
And again this is coming from a fan of hers,
and it first it felt very organic and authentic. And
in many ways it still does because it is her story.
Authenticity and having a good story that grabs voters attention
is something that we all talk about as being important
for a candidate, and obviously that's what she's going for.

(04:25):
But at this point, every time she gets up on
stage and starts talking about her childhood, it seems a
bit canned and political now, partly because she uses the
exact same words verbatim every time. Um yeah, I've noticed
the same thing you have, And I've wondered how much
of it is, you know, in authenticity trying to like
force a message, and how much of it is just

(04:46):
like she's not a natural campaigner, that's not what she does.
She had a career for sixty years before or you know,
she was sixty years before she got old, before she
got into politics. Like maybe it's just weird for her,
and she does it. She's not great at it, absolutely,
And so that's just something that I want everybody to
keep in mind as we're going through it and just
thinking about also, you know, a reminder that she is

(05:07):
a politician. Like it's very easy or there's an instinct
for us, especially in me, I I see it to
want to put our preferred candidate on a pedestal. But
at the end of the day, she's running for president,
and there's something inherently wrong with anybody. Even the only
pure candidate in this race is that one admiral that

(05:28):
was apparently running a dropt death this week. Arou um
the guy whose name is the name you know, the name,
God bless you, random admiral. Okay. So, Elizabeth was born
in Oklahoma City, in which makes her seventy years old.

(05:50):
She was the fourth child in a lower middle class family.
Her mother was a stay at home mom. According to Warren,
the family quote lived on the ragged edge of the
middle class. And we didn't have much money, but like
millions of other families, we got by. But that all
changed at the age of twelve when her father had
a heart attack, putting her family in economic peril due
to medical bills and a loss of income. Uh And

(06:13):
they were about to lose their house, and her mother
had to start working for the very first time in
her life. Uh. Quote. One day I walked into my
mother's room and found her crying. She said, we're not
going to lose this house. She wiped her eyes, blew
her nose and pulled on her best dress, the one
she wore the funerals and graduations. At fifty years old,
she walked down the street and got her first paying job,

(06:34):
answering the phones at Sears. That minimum wage job saved
our home and my mother saved our family. This is
one of those things that she says verbatim over and
over again. I was, I, I've seen her say it
at a rally. I've seen it printed in many different
articles from different events. Right, I was wondering, like, where
do you get that quote exactly like which? Over again?
I I saw her say it verbatim one you know,

(06:56):
and this is weird. We talked in the last episode
about the things about Bernie economic anxiety that I identified with.
I also weirdly identify with this because I too grew
up in Oklahoma and had a mom who, to help
support the family had to work at Sears Socific. But
like Warren, to be fair, Warren talks about this a lot,

(07:17):
but she also talks about it in context of something
that she sees wrong now, which is that people used
to be able to have a normal job and it
provided an actual livable wage. She also started waiting tables
at the age of thirteen at her aunt's restaurant to
help make ends meet. Um. From the time Elizabeth was
in second grade, she wanted to be a teacher, but

(07:39):
her family didn't have money for college. Actually, in her
two thousand seventeen book, Warren wrote about an argument she
had with her mother of her Warren's chances that getting
into college that became so heated that her mom slapped her.
And I'm sure that a lot of people have can
slap by their mom. But yeah, I mean, that's another
thing I can share with Elizabeth Warren. She's relatable. Um,

(08:01):
I I just share that because Warren's it's just being
keep in mind, Warren talks about her mother a lot.
It's she's obviously very formative, um, but she also obviously
had a very contentious relationship. So as I was doing
this research, it just occurred to me, like, I don't
want to, you know, cast dispersions or whatever, but you know,
there might be an element of retroactively spinning things in

(08:22):
a certain way for the purposes of being political. I
don't know, but anyway, her mom pops up in her
story a lot. Anyway, despite that, Elizabeth ended up earning
a debate scholarship when she was sixteen. I mean, of
course she did. Have you seen that woman up on
a debate stage. She's wonderful. Um. And she ended up
attending George Washington University. UM. Elizabeth planned to follow her

(08:43):
lifelong dream and become a teacher, but left university after
only two years to marry her high school sweetheart, Jim Warren.
The couple moved to Houston, where she enrolled in the
University of Houston, a commuter college that costs fifty dollars
a semester. She loves to include that detail literally every
time she talks about this A good detail. Uh. And
she graduated in nineteen seventy with a degree in speech

(09:04):
pathology and audiology. Uh. And it was then, that's so weird.
That's my mom's got a degree this. Yeah. And I
also taught special led for exactly a year like Elizabeth
war So, I think that we're winning Robert over today.
I know who he's Elizabeth with Elizabeth. Yeah, speaking of

(09:28):
special education, it was then that she started teaching children
with special needs at a public elementary school, and she
loved it. However, at two after her daughter Amelia was born,
Elizabeth found out that she no longer had a job
when she was ready to come back from maternity leave.
Uh soul for two years. She became a stay at
home mom, but obviously it wasn't the life that she

(09:50):
wanted for herself. She quote tried desperately to be a
good wife and mother, even though she quote desperately wanted
something more. So when Amelia turned to Elizabeth rolled in
Rutgers law school. I mean on her website she just
calls at a public college that costs fifty a semester um,
but it was Rutgers uh. And this time was very

(10:13):
formative her formative for her in many ways. I mean nomies,
she's getting a law degree, she's got children, but specifically
the struggle of balancing motherhood and a career. It's another
thing that she discusses a lot, specifically the lack of
affordable daycare options for mothers and families. And you can
see that reflected in um, you know, her campaign platform.

(10:36):
So anyway, three years later, she graduates from law school.
At that point, she was pregnant with her son, Alex,
and she learned very quickly that it's difficult to find
employment in a law firm when you're pregnant, which is shocking, right,
I think, I think, I think, I think pregers. You're right,
that is when you're prey. Go god, damn it. Whole

(11:01):
other thing. Um, so okay, she couldn't find a job,
so for a short period of time, she simply practiced
law out of her living room. She popped to sign
up in the window and like made a made a
home office. But after a couple of years, she returned
to her first love, teaching, when Elizabeth became a law
press professor for more than thirty years, teaching at Rutgers,

(11:23):
University of Houston, University of Texas, Austin, University of Michigan,
University of Pennsylvania, and Harvard University. But that stuff that
Robert is going to go into a bit more detail.
I hope she taught at Harvard. I hope so too.
That'd be so cute, all these full circle moments. But
then in nine Warren and her husband got divorced. She

(11:44):
then remarried to her current husband, Bruce, a couple of
years later. Um. When talking about her divorce, Warren cites
the fact that she changed over the years to become
more independent, but he wanted a traditional wife, so she
asked if he wanted a divorce and he was like, yeah, yeah,
do But this apparently caused another rift between her and
her mother, who thought that Elizabeth should be married and

(12:06):
provided for um. There is actually a tweet being circulated
uh over this weekend on December one about a woman
at an event who asked Elizabeth a very personal question.
She asked if she ever had had someone in her
life but she looked up to who didn't accept her,
and Elizabeth became visibly choked up and replied, my mother, uh,

(12:28):
you know, and held back to years talking about her
mother's disappointment when she couldn't make her marriage work. Quote.
My mother and I had very different views on how
to build a future. She wanted me to marry well,
and I really tried, and it just didn't work out.
And there came a day when I had to call
her and say this is over. I can't make it work.
And I heard the disappointment in her voice. I knew
how she felt about it. And sometimes you just got
to do what's right inside and hope that maybe the

(12:49):
rest of the world will come around to it. And
maybe they will, and maybe they won't. But the truth is,
you've got to take care of yourself first. And then
she said, give me a hug, and they had an
emotional hug. I include this well, first of all, to
illustrate what I have just talked about about the mother,
her relationship with her mother. But I don't include this
because it's political per se or appoints to anything specific
in her platform. But I included it because it does

(13:11):
encapsulate the authenticity that people feel from her. Obviously, I've
been criticizing how she's been falling into a kind of
a canned performance sometimes, but this specifically is when she shines.
When she's thrown a surprise question. She always answers authentically
and does so with a humanity that we don't see
from most politicians, and it's something that really is compelling

(13:33):
to me. I do believe her to be an inherently
good person. Um and again I don't get that from
all the candidates. Some of that I think has to
do with the fact that she is a politician. Now
she you know, you could say maybe this was her
plan from the beginning, but I don't. I really don't
get that from someone who didn't in her politics until she's,

(13:54):
what's sixty years old. She had not I mean, we'll
cover this in my bid, but she had an almost
absurdly full career as an academic before she jumped into politics.
So she is, unlike a lot of these people, a
human being. I would like like Bernie. The thing that
I dislike about him the most is that he's been
never been anything but a politician. And part of why

(14:15):
I give him a little bit of a pass on
that is he's more of kind of a revolutionary in
that vein um. So he's not you know, he's never
just been about the power. He as specific things he
wants to do, and I agree with those things, so
I'm okay with him. But he has you know, it's
all he's ever done that's meaningful. And Budajig has done
stuff outside of politics, but it was all just to
get into politics. Biden's been politics forever. You know. I

(14:39):
do like that she came out of the womb wanting
to be a politician. Yeah, she clearly accomplished like enough
goals that if she had that's if her academic career
is all she'd ever done, she would be an extremely
accomplished persian person. And then she got into politics. I
like that, all right. I'm about to hand this off
to Robert in a second. But I would be remiss

(15:01):
if I talked about Elizabeth Warren and didn't discuss the
Native American controversy. As I'm sure most of you already know,
Warren has long claim to have Native American blood in
her lineage. Um, I've seen different numbers on this and
different articles, but her mother was something like one thirty
two Cherokee, and according to Warren, she grew up in

(15:23):
a household where her Indian heritage was celebrated. Quote, these
are my family stories. I've lived in a family that
has talked about Native Americans, talked about tribes since I
was a little girl. I still have a picture on
my mantle, and it's a picture of my mother had
before that, a picture of my grandfather. And my aunt
b has walked by that picture at least a thousand
times and remarked that he her father, my papa had
high cheekbones like all of the Indians do, because that

(15:46):
is how we saw it. And your mother got those
same great cheekbones, and I didn't. She thought that was
the bad deal she'd gotten in life. Look Okay, that's
a really shaky grounding, but you know it's it's super shaky,
and I have nothing but criticism for how she's handled
this in the modern era. That said, again, I grew

(16:07):
up in the the exact same almost part of the world.
I was in Idabelle, not Oklahoma City, but it's it's
not that far away. The culture is very much the same.
And I had family stories about my uncle who was,
you know, one sixteenth Cherokee or something like that. I
don't know if he actually is, but growing up we
always talked about it. And I do not know a
single white family that I grew up around her new

(16:29):
in Oklahoma who did not have some family lore about
Native American heritage. Totally. Yes, bogus usually, but it's it's
a thing. It's the thing in Oklahoma, totally, and I
believe that. And this is a different time, sure, all
of that stuff, and we'll dig into this a little
born in a second. But anyway, she used this heritage
of story to help with certain things like college admissions

(16:51):
and jobs. For years she listened herself as Native American
and a directory of law professors, and she was literally
hired at Harvard as a diversity higher. Apparently at the time,
Harvard had been subject of discrimination lawsuit with its hiring practices,
and the school was openly trying to hire women and
people of color, you know. And and and I think there's
some retroactive like no, no, no no. Uh. And obviously

(17:13):
she deserves the job, and she's qualified, and she had
a long career as a professor, so I'm not trying
to throw that under the bus. But there are are
documented moments when a spokes spokespeople for the university referred
to Warren as a Native American professor or her Harvard's
first woman of color, and so like, look, I don't

(17:36):
have a doubt that she believed that she has this heritage, uh,
in in her life. You know. I do have a
problem with people claiming when a minority status when they
don't actually have it. I mean, like you see it
all the time in Hollywood, people trying to pass as
a diversity higher. But she didn't grow up as a
Native American. She went through a lot of hardships to
get where she is now. But it's very different than

(18:00):
actually growing up as a Native American and bring those
experiences to the table. And you have to know that
she knew that, you know, on some level, and all
the like all the quotes of like where they're saying
like first Native American thing, like she knew about that
stuff about that, and she might see herself as that,
but she did not grow She does not have a

(18:20):
Native American background. One thing I do think needs to
be did you come across the Boston Globe analysis of
her what her heritage would impact it had on her
her hiring at Harvard? No, I didn't see that. Yeah,
they I'm just going to read a quote from an article.
They did not. They conducted the most extensive investigation into
what impact, if any, had had during her time at

(18:41):
Harvard UM. And I'm just going to um I'll quote
a couple of paragraphs from that. Real quickly, the Globe
found clear evidence and documents and interviews that her claimed
to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard
law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, by or
by those who hired her to four prior positions at
other law school um. The Globe examined hundreds of documents,

(19:02):
many of them never before available, and reached out to
all fifty two of the law professors who are still
living and were eligible to be in that Pound Hall
room at Harvard Law School, which is where they've voted
to hire her summer warrants allies. Others are not. Thirty
one agreed to talk to the Globe, including the law
professor who was at the time in charge of recruiting
minority faculty. Most said they were unaware of her claims
to Native American heritage, and all but one of the

(19:23):
thirty one said those claims were not discussed as part
of her higher One professor told the Globe he is
unsure of whether her heritage came up, but is certain
that if it did, it had no bearing on his
vote on Warren's appointment. Well, that's good, that's great. Yeah,
that's the stuff that I've seen. I think that that's
probably true. But I think that there are some people,
there might have been some people that used her status

(19:43):
in her listing as that spin it in some capacities
and just and I'm sure she did unlike a social capacity. Yeah. Um. Anyway,
obviously her this has circled her entire political career, this controversy. Um.
And then we get to last year and she decides
to put the whole thing to bed and does the
DNA test at the urging apparently of John Lovett. This

(20:04):
is something that Cody told me. Yeah, he suggested it
to her when she was on the It was like,
why why don't you do this? Why don't you just
do this and put it to bed. It's incredibly embarrassing
because it turns out she's got like one one. I
can't even read this percentage. It's nothing, basically nothing. It's

(20:27):
basically comparable to what everybody in America has. The American
It's like like like the Biden, you know, biting his
wife's finger thing is like if you watch the context
of the video, it's not as silly as it looks
in the screen grabs. Actually, this is silly and adorable. Yeah,

(20:47):
it's like it's it's like endearing and stuff like he's
not it's not being he's not it's like evidence of
his elderly dementia or whatever. Um. This Elizabeth Warren blood
testing thing is may be the dumbest single move one
of the candidates has pulled in this election. And it's
just as bad in context as it seems. Like. Yeah,
and it feels like this conversation has receded from the

(21:10):
front lines. Uh, you know, and I was surprised at
that She's been surging at times. Maybe not right now,
but you better believe if she gets the nomination, this
is going to be a huge talking point. And so
it's an important thing for us to remember and keep
in mind and even figure out. Like I, I just
don't think she has yet figured out how to talk
about it in a way that like really addresses all

(21:33):
of these issues well. And like when you think about,
like thinking about the worst year ever, like it's going
to be. She's spoken about it, but here's one of
the quotes that she said on it. Like anyone who's
been being honest with themselves, I know that I have
made mistakes, and I'm sorry for the harm I caused.
I've listened and I've learned a lot, and I'm grateful
for the many conversation that we've had together. It's a
great honor to be able to partner with Indian country,

(21:53):
and that's what I've tried to do as a senator,
and that's what I promise I will do as President
of the United States of America. And to be fair,
she has, you know, come up with a series of
plans to help the Native American community, you know, with
different infrastructure and education, healthcare, all of that, And that's great.
This is a community that's grotesquely ignored and overlooked, and
I think that I can't speak for them. Uh, certainly

(22:17):
some people have come around on that, um, but again
it's the general population that I'm worried about. And again,
how this can be weaponized in a general election. It's
going to be weaponized in the grossest possible ways. And
that's just if she's the candidate. That's something we'll all
have to deal with. Ye. All right, Well, this is

(22:39):
a great time for us to take a quick break
for you know, products and services. Speaking of cultural appropriation,
doesn't appropriate from cultures. I'll take your word for that.
Products together, everything, all right, we're back. Um. Katie just

(23:11):
did her great uh right up and in the coverage
of of e war Um, which is actually a pretty
cool electronic Yeah, yep, yep, that's what Elizabeth Warren means. Um.
So now I'm gonna I'm gonna plunge head first into
her next dealon the jig Um. Before I get into that,
I want to talk a little bit about something. Yeah, um,

(23:37):
I want to talk a little bit about something that
I don't have like written up in the script, but
it's something I've seen a lot of leftists on Twitter
drag Warren for, which is her her background as a
Republican for most of her life and in fact, a
very conservative Republican for most of her life. Um, she
consistently refuses to say whether or not she voted for
Ronald Reagan. Um. She says even her husband doesn't know,

(23:59):
and she sleeps with him every night. UM. That said,
I have no doubt in my mind that she voted
for wrong and Um, and you know, Reagan was a
fucking monster who did horrific things to this country and
it's bad to have voted for him. That said, he

(24:21):
won overwhelmingly. And also, like I talk a lot about
I talked a lot about the potential of the Second
American Civil War, And one thing that will make it
impossible to not have one is if people can't overcome
their backgrounds and regressive conservative politics and have an incredibly
progressive career as both an academic uh and a consumer

(24:43):
advocate and a politician. Um. Like, if if we can't
let people do that, we're kind of fucked so yeah,
she like And I also think it's not necessarily a
negative that she knows how to talk to conservatives. And
I think one of the things that is a the
evidence that she's good at it is how like I
agree personally more with with Bernie Sanders is wealth re

(25:06):
distribution plan because it's much more um uh, significantly, it's
much more. It taxes much more heavily people with extreme wealth.
But Warren's polls incredibly well. I think something like fifty
or more of Republicans support her her attacks on the
extremely wealthy. And I think the reason that that plan,
her wealth redistribution plan, pulls better than any wealth redistribution

(25:28):
plan has ever pulled in the history of modern American politics,
is because she knows how to present things to conservatives. Um.
And I think that's not a negative. Um So that's
my take on the matter as someone else who was
a very conservative uh person at one point in their life.
Um yeah, so uh. Career wise, Elizabeth Warren has a

(25:51):
habit of joining educational institutions in the throes of sudden change.
In nineteen she was hired by her alma mater, the
University of Houston, and as a professor Now, at that point,
the University of Houston had only a single tinured professor.
Enrollment by women was surging, though, and the school's gender
and balance among the faculty had become a major issue. Uh.

(26:12):
In a Washington Post article I read on the matter,
the author claims that, quote, Houston is where Liz Warren
became Elizabeth Warren. And there are a few reasons to
think this. One is that at the time, she was
a twenty nine year old, fresh faced law grad from Rutgers.
Now that might sound impressive to you, because Rutgers is
a pretty good college from what I hear, But for

(26:32):
reasons known only to hoity toity h law people, Rutgers
was considered a real ship school. Really like yeah, like
like kind of just it's not good. Like the law
school particularly is not good. Um. Every article I find
about this period in her life notes that like people
like look down on her and it was considered kind
of amazing that she'd gotten hired by the University of

(26:53):
Houston because she only had a Rutgers degree. Well that's
probably why it only caused semester. Yeah, I'm just saying
Rutgers is garbage, terrible school. And if you listen and
are from Rutgers. We don't want you listening to Yeah,
Rgers is and Dan O'Brien is a terrible lawyer, so

(27:15):
James O'Keefe Yeah, also that lawyer. Now. Uh, many people
who are actually fine with the idea of a woman
professor at the University of Houston balked at the idea
of Warren being hired just because of her alma mater.
So that's fun. Um. Now. One person who did believe
in Elizabeth Warren as a professor of law was Eugene Smith,

(27:35):
professor at the university and the head of the You
of Houston's hiring committee. Now, Eugene Smith was a legendary asshole.
H He had suffered from polio as a child, and
he lived with post polio syndrome that by the late
nineteen seventies made it difficult for him to drive or
live any kind of a normal life. He sat down
for Elizabeth Warren for dinner before hiring her, and according

(27:56):
to Smith, he ordered a steak, which he had trouble
cutting up because his hand ends in arms and stuff
weren't working. Uh. He looked up angrily at Liz and
basically asked like why aren't you helping? UM? And it
seems like this was sort of a a test by
him to see how she'd respond, and Elizabeth responded and
he said, basically he was like, why aren't you helping?
Don't you know I have polio? UM? And his test

(28:17):
was kind of see how she'd respond, And Elizabeth responded
by saying, I figured you knew you had polio when
you ordered the steak UM. So he was a became
a huge advocate for her and pushed for her to
be hired, and she in fact was UM. She spent
five years in Houston, which is by my account, about
fifteen years too long to spend in Houston. UM. She

(28:37):
achieved tenure there in nineteen eighty one and bounced around
as a visiting professor for the University of Texas at
Austin and a visiting professor at the University of Michigan.
She also taught Sunday school. UM. She was eventually hired
as a full professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law
School in nineteen eighties seven and made an endowed chair
in nineteen nineties. So she gets tenure at the University
of Houston, gets a teaching jobs at a number of

(28:59):
other universities, then gets hired as a full professor at
a completely different college and made an endowed chair of
that university in nineteen ninety after three years there. This is,
in academic terms, a really meteoric rise. Like this doesn't
really happen often to people. It was easier to get
tenure back then, but even so, like this is sort
of evidence that she was seen by all of her

(29:21):
colleagues and management at the administration at the universities as
being an exceptional professor. Now, she had a pattern of
bouncing around a lot of different law schools and achieving
prestigious positions in them very rapidly. And I'm not going
to go through all of the different chairships and stuff
she got. There's a lot um By nineteen ninety two,
she attracted the eyes of the Harvard Faculty Hiring Board um. Now,

(29:42):
in nineteen ninety two, there were only five women professors
with tenure at Harvard Law School. This had led to
widespread protest among the students, who complained that the number
of women on the faculty had declined in the early
nineteen nineties. The year Warrant was hired, students pastor at
a pamphlet that noted net change in female faculty since
nineteen ninety negative two. This figure will improve to negative

(30:03):
one if Elizabeth Warren accepts a position here. So, like
with her time in Houston, she kind of comes into
this university when it does not have a great reputation
for hiring women. UM. So she arrived as a visiting
professor and very quickly endeared herself to students and faculty.
Professor Richard Fallon Junior credits here with playing a major
role in helping to move Harvard to a place where
it hired more female faculty and had a more diverse

(30:24):
student body. Her students are almost universal and praising her
as an educator. She became particularly renowned for practicing the
Socratic method in a way that basically no teachers do anymore. Um.
One of the few exceptions was Alana Kagan when she
taught at Harvard, who's now on the Supreme Court. UM. Now,
Warren was famous for making a habit of calling on

(30:46):
every single student in the class regularly, uh and having
her assistance keep track of which students had not spoken
enough so that she could be sure to talk to
everybody consistently laptops were banned in her class, not to
stop people from browsing on the internet using Facebook, but
actually to stop people from taking notes. She was afraid
that if students were busy taking notes, it would like

(31:06):
distract from the discussion the socratic dialogue that she wanted
to have with her students. So her goal was to
engage them and talk with them rather than to just
lecture to them. And this is part of why she
was such a yeah, such a prominent tea, or such
a respected teacher. One of her students from the fall
of nine described her class as a cold intellectual shower
first thing in the morning. There are lots of people

(31:28):
who are that demanding and just kind of mean about it.
The trick is to be that demanding and still have
your students love you, which Warren seemed to be really
good at. Um. She was hard, but fair and really
like people. Again, consistently in interviews with the whole like,
you know, student after student after student, a lot of
them will say that like Warren was the teacher whose
approval U crave the most. Um, so that's something yeah, yeah, yeah,

(31:53):
And this all sounds like like her class sounds like
a nightmare. To me because I hated college and I
liked sitting on my laptop and not doing anything. But
I'm the kind of person who shouldn't have been in college,
So it sounds actually was your best case scenario for
getting your money's worth out of a class. At Harvard Um,
she was very well regarded and was widely seen as
one of the most well loved professors on campus. Harvard
held annual mock auditions to raise money for charity, and

(32:16):
Professor Warren was frequently the highest bid member of the faculty.
She would usually promise to tell students mothers nice things
about them, so yeah now. Among other things, Elizabeth Warren
was noted for providing voluminous feedback, sometimes several pages of
it two questions, often only a few paragraphs in length.
Every report you'll read about her class makes it clear

(32:37):
that it was really truly, deeply important for her for
her students to learn not just wrote answers, but a
meaningful understanding of how the law operates. UH. Eugene Smith,
the hiring committee head at the University of Houston, that
that legendary asshole we talked about earlier, the guy who
helped jump start her career by hiring her, even when
it was kind of a risky decision. Well, that guy died, uh.

(32:58):
He asked Elizabeth Warre to speak at his funeral, and
what came next shocked almost everybody. I'm gonna quote from
a Washington Post write up on the matter now and again.
This is in nineteen seven. With a smile on her
face and humor in her voice, Warren described how Smith
had invited her to his office one day, just a
few months after she had been hired. He shut the
door and lunged for her, she said, and as she protested,

(33:19):
he chased her around his desk before she was able
to escape out the door. Everyone was slack jawed, required,
recalled John Mixon, a retired University of Houston professor who
had been close friends with Smith and Warren. Among those listening,
Smith's ex wife and his three adult sons, and the pews,
people exchanged glances. Some at you age disliked Smith. He
kept a bottle of Scotch in his desk and often

(33:39):
told dirty jokes. One colleague remembered later, but mean Gene,
as he was knowed, was generally regarded as harmless. Diagnosed
with post polio syndrome, Smith walked walked, hunched over his arms,
increasingly useless as he aged. Some wondered whether it was
physically possible for Smith to have done what Warren described
to have this image of him chasing her around the desk.
It was just comical. And she told the story without
rancor and recalled, now, that's disturbing. She clearly frames it

(34:05):
as like a humorous moment, but like, that's not a
good thing for your boss to do to you. Yeah, yeah,
And when Warren had, like Warren back at the time,
asked Mixing for advice on how to deal with the matter,
and he'd urged her to say nothing because she was
new to the field and he was an established mean
Gene was an established professor. Now this is horrible and

(34:26):
fucked up, um, but you know, Elizabeth took his advice,
and if we're all honest, his advice was probably the
best path for her to take in order to have
a career in the field. She loved. This was, you know,
n not a time in which fighting the establishment in
this way probably would have worked. Like, that's fucked up,
but that's the way it is, um or with the
way it was, you know, um, Now in the wake

(34:48):
of the Me Too movement, Warren made a point of
telling her story, and a couple of interviews, far right
shit rags like The Washington Times lambasted her for being
inconsistent with her recollection of events. This is mainly due
to the fact that when other people like Mixing had
written about Warren's recollections about Smith uh he Like, they
made it seem distinctly lighthearted. Mixing had written in a

(35:09):
biography of mean gene quote jeans chasing her around the
desk and an uncontrolled lust while she laughed equally uncontrolled
as she avoided his crab like grasp so Like. She
tells it as like a funny moment at his funeral,
and when it gets written up by her colleagues, they
write the story up as a funny anecdote about this
guy um So. The Washington Time says that her bringing

(35:33):
this up as part of the meto movement is inconsistent
with the way it was recalled earlier. Um And I'm
gonna quote from how she talked about it on Meet
the Press in two thousand and seventeen, quote, he slammed
the door and lunged for me. It was like a
bad cartoon. He's chasing me around the desk, trying to
get his hands on me, and I kept saying, you
don't want to do this, you don't want to do this.
I have little children at home, Please don't do this,
and trying to talk calmly. And at the same time,

(35:55):
what was flickering through my brain is if he gets
hold of me, I'm going to punch him right in
the face. So, yeah, that's a thing. I hate that story.
I don't like it. I hate even more than the
story the way the Washington Times dealt with it. It's
pretty um to just sort of frame it like that

(36:18):
as if as if they care. That's kind of a
tactic they often, like organizations like that often do where
it's like, actually, she changed your mind for this, like
you don't care, you don't care about this story. Yeah. Well,
and it's you know, it's two things are possible. It
is possible that number one, you know, uh, Elizabeth Warren
grew up in the fifties and sixties in the Deep South. Uh,

(36:41):
I'm gonna guess this isn't the worst male related interaction
she had, So it's entirely possible that at the time,
because this guy was too weak and too old and
and kind of a friend outside of this that she
did take it in a more lighthearted fashion, um, and
recall it that way, partially a self defense, partially because
there's a you know, it would have been way worse

(37:03):
obviously been like yeah, yeah, um, And it's also possible
that it was still really uncomfortable and something that you know,
gave her doubts about her career and her worth. And
that was also just like you know, it wasn't as
it's not obviously the worst case scenario for sexual harassment,
but it's bad. It's a shitty thing she had to
deal with, and it was totally appropriate, in my opinion,

(37:24):
for her to bring it up as part of the
me too movement when that all hit you know, Um,
you can say it would have been you know, a
more courageous moment like choice for her to like take
a stand at the time and like you know, try
to get this guy ousted, but probably well, it would
have been really point document to her career. Yeah, and

(37:46):
I'm not gonna you know, anyone who did stand up
in nineteen and that sort of situation, I will definitely
praise extra for their courage. But I'm not going to
say that there's anything wrong with the way she handled
that or the way she you know, heard the decision
she made. You know, she was put in an impossible
position by an asshole, and she didn't made the best

(38:07):
of it. As a professor at Harvard, Elizabeth Warren was
pretty consistently praised for keeping her personal politics out of
the classroom. The morning after the two thousand election, she
did discuss the Bushcore stalemate with her bankruptcy class, but
students in that class recalled that she never gave any
indication as to who she supported. This is pretty consistent
among decades worth of reports from her students. Liz Warren

(38:28):
was not a professor who talked politics um. She did
spend a huge amount of time researching the causes of
bankruptcy and economic collapse, though among American families for most
of her career it was assumed that bankruptcy was usually
the result of irresponsible for personal finance choices. In the
two thousand and four book Warren wrote wrote with her
daughter Amelia Tiagi, the two income Trap. While middle class

(38:50):
mothers and fathers are going broke, She pointed out that
workers made success significantly less than their counterparts thirty years
ago and made and this was, you know, kind of
um not something that was being commonly discussed at the time.
The New York Times review of her book noted quote
the authors find that it is not the free spinning younger,
the incapacitated elderly who are declaring bankruptcy so much as
families with children. Their main thesis is undeniable. Typical families

(39:13):
often cannot afford high quality education, healthcare, and neighborhoods required
to be middle class today. More clearly than anyone else,
I think miss Warren and miss Tiagi have shown how
little attention the nation and our government have paid to
the way Americans really live. And it does kind of
seem like her research and study on on this matter
is part of what kind of radicalizes the wrong word
for someone who had, in a sane society be considered

(39:35):
a centrist UM but but pushed her away like into
liberal and democratic politics UM. In two thousand five, she
co published a study on bankruptcy and medical debts which
revealed for the first time that half of family bankruptcy
filings happened in the wake of major medical issues. And
again this is the first time that data was like
clearly laid out in a scientific manner. Um, so that's

(39:57):
a big deal, like pointing out not just doing that
bankruptcy isn't the fault of personally responsibility showing with data
that it's the result of medical being able to point
to the actual problem. Um. Yeah too as a jumping
off point to what you actually want to do with it. Yeah. Yeah,
so that's cool, Like that's that's useful scholarship that helped

(40:20):
provide information that can be used to better the world. Yeah.
I think I think that also it's sort of just
points to that the evolution that you can't necessarily dismisses
like oh, she's a republicans Republican, like there are these
things that have happened that have led her to these conclusions.
And I think that's a good example of like, oh,
there's this study that shows you. I mean, I personally

(40:42):
wish that it didn't need that to get to get
you over there, but at least you can. Yeah, you
do the study, You look at the thing and you're like, oh,
that's a problem, and um now she cares about solving it.
So yeah, you know, it's something people. There's been a
lot of talk in the sort of de radicalization community,

(41:03):
because there's been some like folks who left neo Nazi
groups recently, and folks are you know, people within the
community are like not sure if they're really honest about it,
or if this is just another grift, if they're just
trying to like make money um by because it's now
profitable to like the radicalization kind of person. And so
one of the things that I really do agree with

(41:25):
when people talk about this is like, you know, it's it.
We want people to leave these communities. It's great if
they do. But if you're going to leave these communities
and like try to make a thing out of it
rather than just try to make amends for the wrongs
you've done, you've got to be bringing something to the table.
Um kind of like how um that former Breitbart editor
brought all of these emails between her and her colleagues

(41:46):
that are like, you know, part of what's revealed that
Miller's did you bring something actually show that you want
to do something about it? Yeah? Yeah, And I see
what she's doing. In the early two thousand's, this like
really dedic aided in rigorous work to show the actual
causes of bankruptcy and the problems that like lead people
into poverty and how the system stacked against them. That's

(42:08):
something she's bringing to the table beyond just saying I'm
not a Republican anymore, right, it's I actually, uh, I
have a useful tool for people. Um. Yeah, and yeah.
And also I think there's something you've said for just
being able to accept people and not reject them. Um,
because you want, like you said, you want people to

(42:29):
uh see the light as it were, and to be
accepted even with skepticism. That's you know, healthy skepticism is good,
but not to like all out reject somebody just because
yeah they're past. Because we need to take a real
quick break for products and services stuff, building a movement
towards products and services, and then we'll be back from
more of this everything. We're back, We're back, We're back.

(43:05):
We are we ever gone? These are epistemological questions. Um.
In two thousand and eight, still while still teaching at Harvard,
Elizabeth Warren met Barack Obama for the worst time. She
accidentally punched him in the face. It was horrible. No, no,
for the first time. Uh. Now, this was at a fundraiser.

(43:25):
It was actually one of Barack Obama's very first out
of state fundraisers for his senate campaign. UM. The fundraiser
has been put together by Professor David Wilkins, and he recalls, quote,
one of the people who came was Elizabeth Warren, and
I had told Barack that she was coming, and he
was very excited because he had been working on predatory
lending in the Illinois State Senate. And so when Elizabeth came,
I took her over to meet Barack. And here's how

(43:47):
Warren recalled that meeting, going in two thousand eleven. Quote,
he holds his hand out, that's just like this is
just like in the movies. And as I hold my
hand out and as our fingers touch, he says to me,
predatory lending. And then he just goes and I never
get a word in. I never get a word in,
and I'm just standing there, my hand still in his hand,
and he's talking. Finally he gets all the way to
the end and he gets this big grin and he says, well,

(44:08):
and I say, you had me at predatory lending. I
don't think that story is true. Obviously, they definitely, they
definitely met, but like no, Barack Obama is one of
those charismatic man who's men who's ever lived. Nobody starts
a conversation like predatory lending, Like maybe he just started

(44:30):
talking and talking and talking. That's what I don't believe. Yeah,
I think she's like, you're going to listen to me.
You right now calling her a liar? Guys, are you
calling I'm calling her a politician? Yeah? Um so. Barack
Obama was elected in two thousand and eight, and he
took office in two thousand nine during the darkest days

(44:53):
of an economic collapse brought on by feckless fiscal policy
that let grifters run amuck in finance and real estate.
For a little while there, we all had higher hopes
that Barack Obama would actually do something without problems of this.
Yeah we really did, um boy, howdy. Yeah. Now, at
this point in time, Liz Warren was not yet in Congress,

(45:16):
but she was the chair of the Congressional Oversight Panel
for the Troubled Asset Relief Program or TARP, which is
an oversight board established to hopefully hold someone accountable for
the financial collapse and to provide assistance to taxpayers. Now,
TARP was a controversial program, part of what it did
was basically buy up toxic assets in order to help
stabilize the financial sector. As chair of the TARP oversight Panel,

(45:39):
Warren was a harsh critic of this policy. And I'm
gonna quote from Politico here. In February two nine, Warren
personally warned the Senate Banking Committee about the government's accounting
slide of hand despite the assurances of then secret and
this is warrant talking, despite the assurances of then Secretary Paulson,
who said that transactions were at par That is, for
every hundred dollars injected into the banks, the taxpayer received
socks and warrants from the banks worth about a hundred dollars.

(46:01):
The valuation study concludes that the Treasury paid substantially more
for the assets at purchased under the TARP program then
their then current market value. Now, the valuation study was
commissioned by Warren's panel, and it showed that the total
market value of TARP assets was roughly a hundred and
seventy six billion dollars, which was seventy eight billion dollars
less than what the government was paying these companies. So

(46:22):
the difference basically constituted a transfer of taxpayer money directly
to banks for free. Um. And while no one should
be surprised that a government loan program, you know, did this. Um,
the account was like, what political notes is that, like,
nobody should be surprised that the government loan program like
did this. But what's interesting is the accounting method Warrant

(46:42):
used to expose these costs. She was using something called
fair value accounting, which means making sure that evaluation reflects
current market prices, because things can get really fishy with
these companies when they're trying to make it look like
the government's getting a better deal than they really are. Um.
So that's an important thing to note that when she was,
you know, chair of this this Tart committee, she used
fair value accounting to attack the TART program for basically

(47:06):
giving free money to these companies that had brought on
the financial collapse. Right, Keep that in mind. That's definitely
good things she did, but it ties into a bad
thing she did later, So keep that in mind now.
In two thousand eleven, President Obama charged Elizabeth Warren with
helping to create the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. The bureau's
only job was to protect consumers from banks and predatory

(47:28):
financial institutions. Now, there are a lot of criticisms you'll
find of the CFPB, ranging from the valid because it's
questionable as to whether or not it's entirely constitutional, to
the stupid. I found an article on the Hill that
claims it damaged businesses by levying five billion dollars in
fines against financial entities that misbehaved, which is its job. Now,
whatever you want to say, yeah, it's the Hill, you know.

(47:50):
Whatever you want to say about the cfp B, the
attempt to establish such a bureau was, in my opinion,
pretty noble and reasonable. Um Warren never actually ran the bureau,
She just helped to create it. Rumor has it that
President Obama was trying to push her for that job,
but he was basically forced to pick somebody else because
Warren was unpopular amongst certain politicians. Um So. In two

(48:13):
thousand twelve, Elizabeth Warren ran to be the U. S
Senator from Massachusetts, Taxachusetts, Am I right? Is anyone tried
that joke? As I think I'm break a new ground there.
She ran against an incumbent Republican Senator, Scott Brown, who
campaigned in a pickup truck in a bid to win
support for his via his folksy ways hed derighted Warren

(48:34):
as professor in debates. This did not Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, professor, Okay, scientist,
Yeah exactly. And now this didn't work and Warren won handily.
And I think that's a really valid point. Um. You know,
when people talk about whether or not we should trust
her because she was a Republican at one point, Like,

(48:54):
she has a proven ability to unseek Republican who campaigned,
you know, by by pushing in heart on their on
their right wing. But she's able to do that, she
did it before. I don't doubt her liberalism at this point.
I I don't either. I'm just pointing out that I
think there's there's like evidence that her conservative background is

(49:18):
an asset because she was able to campaign against this
guy and when like calling her an egghead or whatever. Yeah,
and in terms of like who I want, you know,
the president being the head of the party, Um, there's
something to be said for a president who has direct
personal experience unseating Republicans in the Senate, which is something
we need to do a lot. Yeah. So, Um, when

(49:41):
she started her run for office, Warren told supporters, I
don't want to go to Washington to be a co
sponsor of some bland little bill nobody cares about. I
don't want to go to Washington to get my name
on something that makes small change at the margin. Now,
in her first four years in office, she co sponsored
four dozen resolutions for bland little bills nobody cares about,
including bills is ablishing National Rare Disease Day and honoring

(50:03):
the entrepreneurial spirits of small business concerns, which really changed things.
Can do you guys remember the years before National Rare
Disease Day? Those were dark times were they were hard
for everybody. Yeah, I didn't know they were rare diseases.
I thought it was just cancer and syphilis all the
way down. But that's about not being able to get

(50:23):
stuff done because you're new, or because I can't imagine
that's a thing that she cared Also, I mean, yeah,
you also want to be able to say, like, oh,
I think she was some boxes, yeah, something, so that
she'd have another bullet point to stick on one of
those mail ers they shove into the side of the door.
You know, it's something you do. It's not great. I'm

(50:45):
not going to praise you for it. It's pretty normal whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Now,
like most politicians, Senator Warren found reality to deviate from
her previous ambitions, and she had to make compromises to
deal with the world of politics. For example, remember that
stuff I just said about her condemnation of TARP, and
you know the accounting she used in order to prove
it was a really fucking bad idea. Well, in two

(51:06):
thousand fourteen, she advocated for enhancing the federal student loan
program based on the same sort of wobbly numbers she'd
criticized the TARP program for from Politico, because the government
effectively assumes its estimate of what consuit of what student
loan recipients will pay back carries no risk. Official cost
figures show the program earning a profit of a hundred
and thirty five billion dollars over the next ten years.

(51:26):
But the idea that a government program can subsidize students
and generate profits at the same time should give anyone pause. Indeed,
when the Congressional Budget off has applied fair value methods
to federal student loans, it found that the profit is
is actually an eight eight billion dollar loss for the taxpayers.
So when Elizabeth Warren is analyzing and critiquing TARP. She
uses fair value accounting when she's trying to push a
student loan uh like a new student loan program. She

(51:49):
doesn't use fair value so that it looks like her
the program she's supporting is better than it is. So
that's that's worth noting now. During her time as Senator,
Elizabeth Warren has managed to push exactly one meaningful bill
through the Senate, the Smart Savings Act, which modified retirement
accounts for federal workers to make their investments more valuable.
Her student loan legislation was blocked by Republicans, So the

(52:12):
only bill that you can say Elizabeth Warren got through
during her time in the Senate is the Smart Savings Act.
And this may seem like a crappy record. It's certainly
not like an inspiring one, um, but it's actually slightly
above average. From members of her congressional class of two. Yeah. Yeah,
Most of the other senators elected alongside Warren in the

(52:33):
same year have passed zero bills in the Senate. Only
two of her classmates, Ted Cruz and deb Fisher have
passed two bills, So she's gotten one bill through. The
record is too couldn't not a great system. You certainly
can't say she's an exceptionally productive legislator, um, But she's

(52:55):
slightly above average given the time at which she was elected,
and would be yeah, yeah, given the complete funkedness of
our system. Um. Now. Warren is, however, you know, well
known for being influential outside of her specific legislative accomplishments.
She's a remarkably potent member of the Senate Banking Committee,

(53:15):
and her at times vicious questioning has led to a
number of changes in federal policies that didn't require new legislation.
For example, she pushed the SEC to require banks to
admit wrongdoing when they negotiate settlements. The Atlantic spoke to
one of her critics, a financial services executive, who said
this about her, She's both, at the same time, highly
ineffective and influential. I know that sounds inconsistent, but it's not.

(53:37):
She has no legislative accomplishment other than to derail a
few nominees, which is easy to do, but to her credit,
she is highly influential. Members of the House Democratic Caucus
and Senate Democratic Caucus are really looking over their shoulders,
so she's able to push to get a lot of
things done and change is made um as a result
of the fact that she because she's good at the
debate and ship now. When congressional Democrats talked about cutting

(54:00):
Social Security in two thousand twelve, Warren got forty two
out of forty four of them to vote yes on
expanding Social Security benefits instead. Later, however, she failed to
derail an omnibus bill that softened Dodd Frank the Dodd
Frank Wall Street Reform law. Her best known moment as
a legislator may have come into thousand sixteen, when she
grilled Wells Fargo CEO John Stump during a hearing of
her allegations of massive fraud within the organization uh In

(54:24):
a now viral video, she told Stump, you should resign,
you should give back the money that you gained, all
the scam was going on, and you should be criminally
investigated by the Department of Justice in the Securities and
Exchange Commission. Warren has been a consistent advocate of criminal
charges in jail time for executives and CEOs who break
the law. In the wake of the two thousand and
seventeen Equifax data breach, which affected a hundred and forty

(54:44):
three million people. Elizabeth Warren announced the Corporate Executive Accountability Act.
If passed, this would impose jail time on executives who
negligently permit or fail to prevent a violation of the
law that impacts the health, safety, finances, or personal data
of one percent or more of the population of any
even state. A convicted CEO would get a year in
prison for a first offense, and up to three years
for repeat offenses. You might call this a slap on

(55:06):
the wrist, and I would, but it's also fucking something,
and currently nothing happens to these people. Call that good
elements of that where it's like, well, at least it's something.
Mm hmm. Some jail time is a massive improvement over
they get rich and never face consequences and even just
the conversation of like holding them accountable. Yes, yes, so

(55:30):
that's my six page s I and Elizabeth Warren, well done, Robert.
Oh yeah, we did it. We did it, But not
quite because now it's Cody to talk about. We're gonna
compare a little bit between her and Bernie. Is that
what you're doing, Yeah, just a little bit. I kind
of wanted to keep it loose and see what you
guys thought, also of just how how the situation we're
in is. Because I know, Katie, you're like a big

(55:53):
fan of Elizabeth Warren f UM and sort of wanted
to go through her her platform and a little more
detail and sort of compare and contrast the two candidates
who I would say are the most progressive available, especially now. Okay, yeah,
so yes, yes, left wing firebrand Kamala literally a communist Harris,

(56:17):
you will be missed, Commula Harris. Yeah, it's not even
like a main headline today. No, it's not Camala Harris. Right,
there's more, there's probably more, um, but also more like
can't Maala Harris? All right? I mean we could also
draw a comparison between her and added Turk Mustapha Kamal

(56:39):
and call her Kamala Harris. There wouldn't be any logical
through line there, because I don't think they're similar in
any way, shape or form. No, that's that's nothing. It
just occurred to me. But yeah, so, uh, I think
the main difference that it's very clear with these two
is that I think that they're on they're on the
same track, and I think they have similar goals. Um,
but Ernie is just a little more. Bernie's a socialist

(57:03):
and she's a capitalist. I mean, there you go. That's
where I was gonna get at. Um. There you know.
Bernie's not um kind of mince words about what he
thinks about capitalism, um, and a lot of the issues
that arise from that, whereas uh, the Warren has said
that she is a capitalist to her bones. Yeah. And
one of the moments I really disliked from her was

(57:24):
during the State of the Union. I was going to
bring that up, promised, Yeah, okay, okay, I'll let you
Oh no, yeah. Um. I think the best example of
this is, uh, during Trump's State of the Union dress,
he talks about socialism and how socialist never going to
come to America. Um, And at this moment, everybody stands
up and gives him applause, except for you can see
Bernie Sanders just sitting there, stone face, just like you

(57:46):
don't know the deal. And I think that there is
a UM. I think there's a real problem when a
fascist says that socialism will never happen in America, and um,
a capitalist to her bones stands up and claps, Because
that is large part of protecting capitalism and everybody else
stood up to everybody else stood up for sure. Yeah,

(58:07):
but that's like, that's the time for a principal moral stance,
especially if your single most noteworthy policy is literally wealthy redistribution,
which is like the core of socialist politics, um at
this point in time. Yeah, but her whole thing is
bringing socialists these practice, these policies, but maintaining capitalism because

(58:31):
overhauling the system is X, Y or Z. You know,
it doesn't rub me quite as raw as you guys.
I mean, I see it as a real reason to
worry that she's not going to actually push for a
lot of the stuff that she she says she's going
to push for. That this will this income redistribution and
medicare for all the actual like socialist things that she's

(58:53):
she's talked about. Um, will die on the vine because
she's going to compromise with Republicans and we'll wind up
with another four years of Obama exactly. That's a real concern. Um. Again,
especially like if a if a fascist says, uh, we're
gonna save capitalism, I don't think you should stand up
for that. Um. Yeah, it's not a good look. I

(59:14):
don't like that she did that. It's the single moment
that gives me most pause about her. Yeah, And I
think it's sort of that general idea, um can be
seen in the difference between them. Um, although she does
have a wealth tax that, as you mentioned, pulls very well.
Obviously his is more extreme. Hers goes just it's two
percent or six percent depending on your wealth. H Sanders

(59:37):
starts at two percent between thirty two million and fifty million,
and hers doesn't have anything in that category. Um. Interesting.
Also if you if you see like some celebrities be
like I actually I think they're both great, but I
like Warren. Uh, probably because they don't follow her right.
Sometimes you look in like, oh you you're you're met
Worth is like forty million or something like that. Um,
so he is more progressive there, but she has it,

(59:59):
and that's something. So I think that there's a there's
a progressive path that she's on. Like it's it's beyond
arguing that based on assuming she actually goes for the
things on her platform, if she were elected, she would
be the most progressive candidate elected during our lifetime. Now
there's reason to worry that she wouldn't go through with it.

(01:00:19):
But yeah, right, and so that's sort of we're getting
out like there. And there are other similarities, like they
you know, they want to get rid of the electoral College. Uh,
they want to restructure Ice. Both of them. I think
his language is a little stronger, but not neither of
them have said like I want to abolish ICE. Yeah,
I don't like that either. Don't like that either. That's yeah,
we talked about that in the Bernie episode. They're both

(01:00:40):
believers and borders. They're both fundamentally you know, they want
to be president of the United States, and there's only
Bernie is about the most progressive you can be and
want to be the president of the United States, right,
both think, yeah, yeah, they both do fundamentally support aspects
of what Ice does, right. And I think that also,

(01:01:01):
like even when when she's talking about her plan for
the military, Um, she her vision is a a green military,
and uh, the way she talks about it, I think
is um a little uh disconcerting. Um. It's because when
she like on her website, like literally, if you look
at her foreign policy and her military page, the first

(01:01:23):
sentences from Endless Wars that strain military families two and
then she goes on. And if you're framing it like
the endless wars are bad because of the strain on
military families, then that sort of indicates that maybe you
don't really right. And it's sort of that like presenting
this seemingly progressive idea but framed in Republican language and

(01:01:43):
maintaining this idea, and like her military plan also talks
about getting them to uh green energy and making all
the military bases safe from climate disasters and stuff, without
pointing out by the way, we have way to mility
many military bases around the world. It's all about sort
of protecting that institution as opposed to pointing out the

(01:02:05):
flaws in the institution. It's also like pandering to certain sides,
protecting certain Yes, it's certain elements of it, but we
also like tapping into something that you know the liberals
would would respond to. And this is one of those
things where like so when I talked about like my
my issues with Warren, there's this stuff that like makes

(01:02:26):
me question whether or not voting for her would actually
help anything if she were to get elected. Um, which
is like the whole being like standing during that point
in the state of the Internet right where you really good.
But then and then there's the things where I think
her beliefs, like the beliefs that are leading her to
this are like wrong and fucked up, and she's not
going to deal with big aspects of the problem. But

(01:02:48):
if she actually does that thing, it would be huge.
And that the US military thing, like it's one of
those things you can hit on her because like, Okay,
so you're fine with us being imperialists and like bombing
people as long as we're green about it, and yeah,
that's fucked up. But also, the US military is the
single largest emitter of greenhouse gases on the planet, um, right,

(01:03:08):
And there are aspects of that and if you if
you do if you focus on reducing their footprint and
developing green technology for them, that will trickle down to
you know, the people who really need it and so on. Well,
and it's also just like if we're talking about single
actions that could be taken in order to stop climate
change quickly, one of the things that has to happen
very quickly is the U S Military has to stop

(01:03:29):
emitting greenhouse gases. Um. So, yeah, I think they're like
there's a lot of that where I I think that
she some of the things she wants to do are good,
and but like framed in a in a way, and um,
you just wish that it was a little more pointed
in their criticism and really like leading the conversation about it.
Let's let's talk about medicare for all her. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(01:03:54):
let's get to that. Um, because there there are a
lot of details about differences in their plans. And I
think that that's the general idea, is that her plans
sort of are couched in this like let's preserve what's
going on, despite framing it like big structural change. Like
she's very much like this is a grassroots movement of
big structural change, but actually she just wants to regulate capitalism. Well,

(01:04:15):
so on the car ride over here, you were talking
about boils down to Bernie being like, yes, medicare for
all and and her at this point proposing it be
a two step process. Yeah. So she is slowly uh that,
but then two years so like get certain things started,
and then after two years pushed for the medicare for all.
Yeah her, So her plan and this is a slow process.

(01:04:37):
I think this is indicative what we're talking about, where
she is slowly gotten on board with Medicare for all.
It wasn't like a big part of her platform when
she's running for Senate or anything. But she has gotten
on board with a single payer and sort of avoided
talking about how she's going to pay for it and
not just sort of full filtally being like, this is
the right thing to do, We're gonna do it. Well,
she does say this is the right thing to do,

(01:04:57):
We're going to do it ultimately, but I mean like
and like, and so this is a different development if
a couple of months ago she wasn't saying it in
two steps she was talking about it were that and that.
I do understand being a little bit of a cause
for alarm, But I pushed for you to bring this
up now because I just think it's interesting conversation that
we should all be having. I know that you're very

(01:05:19):
much staunchly in the camp of yes, and I am too.
I think pushing for medicare for all is how you
get to medicare for all, um I do understand. I
I know that it is scary to a lot of people.
Even if they do want it, they're not sure how
it will work out. And I'm wondering how off putting
is this idea of two years starting and then after

(01:05:40):
two years pushing for the going for that way, And
also how long it would take anyways, like how long
would it take Bernie to get around and getting us
medicare for all? Maybe maybe it would be even harder
to obtain. I don't know, but well, I think it's
It's the kind of thing, though, Katie, when you're like
when you're haggling with somebody at like a bizarre or
whatever one of the parts of the world where that's
the way buying is done. You don't start with the

(01:06:01):
highest you're willing to pay. You start like you know
you you you start with as good as like the
best thing you can imagine price you can imagine getting,
and you push for that so that you know when
you you you're going to have to give some you
push for we're going to start making these changes immediately.
Um And obviously there will be friction no public option
in Obamacare, and there's reason that no, and I get that,

(01:06:23):
and I do agree with it. I think there's also
so there's this article in the Washington Post a couple
of days ago about the sort of buying the scenes
story of her struggle with like presenting the plan and
trying to sort of tow the line in a way
where she wants to be this hyper progressive on medicare
for all, but also a lot of people in the
party are pressuring her behind the scenes like this is

(01:06:44):
a bad idea, you shouldn't do this. Um. And finally,
the end result is we're going to lower the age
for a medic character fifty and then eighteen and below
you get it also, and we're gonna vote and we're
gonna do that, and then in three years we're going
to vote again and we're going to give it to
everybody because by then it'll people will be like, oh,

(01:07:06):
it's actually good. Yeah. But I mean there are several
problems with that, I think, Um, like you were pointing out, Robert,
like you you go with what you want to do,
and you say, here's what we want and what we're
going to do, and then you're probably gonna have to
back up a little bit because that's how the government works,
as you said, like you know, one bill in her
whole time. But so but also, um, if you're waiting

(01:07:28):
until your third year to like push for it, that
means you need to maintain the Congress control of Congress
in the midterms, and that's hard for a person that
was just elected. Real quick, I just want to interject
and say this because we don't talk about it enough
on the show, but I hope we do in the
new year. That just as important, if not more important
than the presidential election. Well that's incredibly important is the Senate,

(01:07:50):
and I think that we should talk about that a
lot um and highlight those races. But because in that situation,
you need the people to be able to put that
we want anything to happen, and with any of these candidates,
we need some Democrats anyway, sort of points to why
she also so she's in favor of getting rid of
the filibuster um, which I think is I think their
arguments for and against that too. I think that, uh,

(01:08:14):
it can be used by the people who have been
you know, uh, I want to stop you from doing
things like this um. But so I think that speaks
to her like we're just gonna try to do it,
but you need that support, I think, And I do
agree with you, guys, I I know and I agree.
I just I do wonder what is if that feels
less intimidating to a voter that is coming into this

(01:08:38):
and not sure where they stand on the issue. That's
the only thing that I put out there. There's a
couple of different ways I feel about this, Katie. One
of them is sort of there. There's the issues like
the millet, like the green military thing, where I I
agree we should be talking about how to fundamentally change
the way our our nation like works militarily and in
foreign policies that were not involved in wars all around

(01:09:00):
the world and drone striking like we just killed a
bunch of kids in Afghanistan. Um. I I totally agree
with that, um. But at the same time, we are
where we are in this country, and I think that
the way she's you know, reducing the U. S. Military's
emissions is critical and the way she's framed that is
a good way to get moderate and conservative voters who
are kind of on the fence and behind it. Because

(01:09:22):
if you start being like we're gonna abolish the U. S. Military,
that those people are gonna vote for you, right, you
gotta so. I think that's an example of she's good
at framing stuff for conservatives. And Okay, I may wish
things were different, but we are where we are, and
that makes sense to me. And then there's the stuff
where I think by not pushing harder um, she's causing.

(01:09:43):
She she not even causing. She's representative of a problem
like with students like her her plan on student loan
debt cancelation. She consistently says that her plan would provides
at least some debt cancelation for people with student loan
debt UM and she I'm gonna quote here directly. Here
it cancels fifty thousand student loan debt for every person

(01:10:03):
with household income under a hundred thousand dollars. It provides
substantial debt cancelation for every program with household income between
a hundred thousand and two hundred fifty thousand dollars UM.
So that's that's that would be better than what we
have now. But it's very different from what Sanders has
um because his is total debt cancelation. So under you know, now,
that may not seem huge, it may seem like things

(01:10:24):
get better either way. But there's a reason why I
find that worrying. And it was really well elucidated in
an article in Current Affairs magazine called the prospect of
an Elizabeth Warren nomination should be very worrying. And I'm
gonna quest, I'm gonna I'm gonna quote from that. Now.
Means testing is a critical part of the difference between
the two because in it we see the serious differences
between what Sanders and Warren each think the world ought
to be. Like Sanders believes in a decom modified provision

(01:10:47):
of public goods where they're free and you get to
use them because you're a person, Warren believes much more
strongly in giving them only to people who satisfy a
set eligibility criteria. Now, defenders of means testing will argue
that it is aggressive, and this is why they say
things like, you don't want to give college free college
to Donald Trump's kids, but you should give free college
to them for the same reason that we give Donald

(01:11:09):
Trump's kids the same access to free public high schools
and free roads and free fire services and free libraries
and free parks. They are people, so they get given
the same basics as everyone else. And that's one of
my major issues with you. And I don't I don't
disagree with that. I don't disagree with that at all.
Like I I get that, and it's something that I
think about as well. Um, but I do wonder how

(01:11:30):
that for other people that aren't as liberal as us
that we're trying to get And that's just when I
think about and as we're putting out this information, and
it's just part of this conversation that we're having. Yeah,
it's a concern. Um, I think I don't know. I
like personally, when I see, like when I see Bernie
Sanders go on Fox News and the crowd at Fox
News is clapping for him for the things he's saying,
it tells me that if you honestly talk about these

(01:11:51):
problems in a like and if when you frame them
in a way where like it is about everybody, it's
that it's not me a sort of approach to it.
When I think that's more effective than we give it
credit for, because it is like when you talk about
means testing and being sort of exclusionary in these ways,
you don't know everybody's situation, and the idea is that
everybody gets it because everybody should get it exactly same

(01:12:15):
energy and all these sort of things we're talking about,
and it's yeah, yeah, it's because we're trying we it's
because we fundamentally need to change society, our society at
a a pretty basic level, or we're going to either
collapse into a fascist nightmare state or have a civil

(01:12:36):
war or something like that. We think we can't just
it's we're we're not at We're no longer at the
enough duct tape can keep it's a sustainable car. Yeah,
that's uplifting way to end this show. Well, I actually
want there's one more quote I want to read from
that Current Affairs article if I can um that I
think is I agreed with as well. One of the

(01:12:57):
most important things Bernie Sanders has ever said is this,
I'm going to run the presidency differently than anyone else.
I'm not only going to be commander in chief, I'm
going to be organizer in chief. What does that mean.
It means that Sanders is not going to stop speaking
on picket lines when he becomes president. Trump did not
stop holding rallies. This was smart. This was a critical
mistake that Barack Obama made. He stopped organizing when he
got into office. I have previously discussed the way Warren

(01:13:20):
focuses on plans where Sanders, while Sanders focuses on power.
Everyone knows that Elizabeth Warren has a plan for that.
But if those plans are going to go anywhere, you
need what Sanders is talking about, a political revolution. You
need to overthrow the existing Democratic Party leadership in the
d n C and in Congress. You need to threaten
to run the primary candidates against anyone who doesn't support
your agenda. You need a giant on the ground operation

(01:13:43):
of people who will lobby for your agenda and convince
Americans that anyone who opposes it needs to be ejected
from office. I think one of the fundamental problems with
Barack Obama was that he was a law professor. He
came up with a plan, and if he didn't have
the votes in Congress to pass it, that was that
the plan was dead. The law professor accepts political reality
is fixed. Well, the movement builder tries to get millions

(01:14:03):
of people to act politically in order to alter that reality.
And I that's I think really an important note. That's
a good Yeah, that's sort of kind of puts it
all together and what we're talking about, because I think
that also she sort of uses that language, but it
doesn't necessarily push for it, like she talks about the
grassroots movement. She talks about the organizing, but it's not
really with the same goal um of doing, of doing

(01:14:26):
that and really like creating a movement of power to
give back to the people as opposed to like regulating
the people a little bit. This is all very interesting, uh,
in a very important conversation to be having as we're
comparing them. I still love her, but you know, these
are all important distinctions as people. I think that a
lot of people are. It's going to come down, especially
our listeners to Bernie or Warren. Yeah, well, I think if,

(01:14:47):
like if if Bernie wasn't running or hasn't been a
politician for decades, I think that this would be a
different kind of episode. Um, you know, you would frame
it differently. So, yeah, like we we we've we've run
out of time for this episode. There's more we want
to talk about in terms of like some stuff we
missed on Bernie, in terms of differences between Bernie and Warren. Um,

(01:15:10):
we're gonna get to that in another episode. We're not
done with this, but I think we've provided a really
good overview of her career in our concerns with her
and the stuff we like. I hope people think this
is fair. I think it's fair. I think it's fair. Yeah,
I think it's fair. If I don't think it's fair,
then you're wrong. Yeah, then you're wrong. And you can
drag us on Twitter. Um, you guys wanna want to

(01:15:32):
lead us out? Yeah? Oh, if you want to drag
us on Twitter, it's at worst your pod. It's also
at worst your pod on Instagram. Um, all those things.
I'm Katie Stole on Twitter. I'm Dr Mr Cody on Twitter. Yeah,
and I'm Dr Mr Katie Stole on Damnit and I
right okay on Twitter? Um, yeah, a little with a

(01:15:58):
little for in No, you know, you'll have a wonderful day.
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