Updates on Defunding the Police from Minneapolis

Obstacles facing defunding the police, from someone actually trying to do it.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart
Radio Together Everything Boy. This year huh not a good one.

(00:24):
It is one though. It's a year. It is a year.
It is a year. Uh, and it it could either
be the best or the worst year ever still because
there's days left in it, so like you know, a
variety of things could occur. But as we can still
turn this thing around. Yeah, the years I've experienced certainly

(00:45):
the worst. Uh, that's the podcast name of the years
I've experienced, certainly the worst. This one is. It's punchy. Yeah,
very quick to the point, the way you're supposed to
write things you want. You want the long titles for podcast. Yeah,
people as indirect and and obvious, skated as possible. That's

(01:05):
what it helps you as it does not fit in
your podcast. Are you're doing it right? Yeah? Yeah? So
introduction wise, I'm Robert Evans uh and we've also got
a Katie Stole here, we've got a Cody Johnston and uh,

(01:26):
we're all talking about the world in which we live.
But it's not just us this time, thank god, because
we're I mean, I'm tired of us, right, Are are
you tired of us? Us? I'm tired. I'm not tired
of any of you. I love all of you very nicely.
I I see this bit and I like it. It's fun, Robert,

(01:49):
But if I'm being perfectly honest, I look forward to
seeing you guys. Well that's very sweet, but it does
ruin my joke. So it's time for us to bring
in our guest for today. Who I'm very excited to
talk to. H Jeremiah Ellison, who was a city council
member in Minneapolis Ward five, uh as well as a
political organizer and a visual artist. And uh, yeah, Jeremiah,

(02:11):
welcome to the thing that we do that is in
your ears, but it is not the radio somehow. Yeah. No,
thanks for having me. I'm I'm excited. Uh. I've been
listening to Behind the Bastards and and was listening to
Behind the Police, and um I heard Minneapolis mentioned a
couple of times and obviously have been involved in in

(02:32):
all the stuff we're doing here locally. Uh, So it
was interesting to hear it sort of distilled through, uh,
through your lens and and and I think you got
it spot on. Um. Yeah, so I reached out and
just thought i'd let you know, like listening to behind
the police was was weirdly affirming, even though I wouldn't
call it like feel good material. Yeah you sent me

(02:55):
that message, which really helped on a dark day because
they're mostly dark days in Portland. Right about now, um
and yeah, I started thinking, like, you know, for all
that I care about this, I know that y'all in Minneapolis,
in the city Council have voted to like, let's get
rid of this, let's get rid of these police. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

(03:16):
that's the That was like the headline that I read earlier,
and then I read other headlines it's like it's actually
harder than that to do. Yeah. Um, So I figured
we'd bring you on because like, first off, I want
to know, like what's what's going on with that? Like
like how do we get to the point of like
I'm curious, you know kind of since you've been inside this,

(03:36):
what kind of what it was like leading up to
and getting you know, have actually like having a vote
on on that, on whether or not to kind of
replace your police force with something else. And then sort
of what's happened since and like what things have been
kind of thrown in your way and blocked sort of
the route that you like it. I know that it's
a fascinating story and you have been there for it,

(04:00):
which really makes things easier on me. Um. So yeah,
I uh, you know, I think that what you can
say in a headline is often, um, obviously not the
whole picture. And so I'll try to do my fastest
version of the like long version, um, which won't take
too long. But essentially, you know, we had a number

(04:21):
of constituents, a number of activists in the community of
Minneapolis who uh during the uprising, said hey, look, uh,
we think that there's this this this huge uh not
just problem with the Minneapolis police, but we think there's
a huge inherent problem with the nature of policing, how
we do policing, how we conduct public safety. We think
a lot of you on the city council agree with us,

(04:42):
and we're looking for you all sort of affirm publicly
that you agree with your constituents who feel this way
and so um and so you know, I actually was
at that time, uh, doing a number of community like
patrols right myself, like as the council member, I was
out all night. You know, there were out of there
was a lot of talk of white supremacist stuff, and
so I didn't know how many of my colleagues we're

(05:03):
gonna show up to to the to the park that day. Uh.
There ended up being nine of us. Uh, and we
and we sort of affirmed that we agreed that the
nature of policing was is flawed and and that we
really need to uh, we need we are interested in
being on the front line of dismantling that system and
creating something different for public safety. What followed was kind

(05:25):
of a number of really kind of boring small steps.
One was a resolution basically affirming that public commitment that
we made in the park that we are looking to replace, dismantle,
change our radically change our our method of public safety
within the city. One of the ways in which we
are blocked from making any changes is via our city charter.
For folks who don't know, the city charter is basically

(05:47):
like the municipal local constitution. So we're sort of in
our own way. And so our first step really after
passing a resolution and a resolution is basically just like, uh,
it's a promise. It can either means something or not
means something, depending on your follow through. After passing the resolution,
we went to go change the Charter, and we ran
into the Charter Commission and UM and I think also

(06:10):
a lot of backlash within the community that was really
pushing to sort of slow the brakes and say, hey, look,
you know, we know that people want radical change, but
we think maybe that shouldn't happen. And the Charter Commission,
uh is a it's an unelected body. They are you know,
they are entitled via state statute to make the decision

(06:32):
that they made. The decision that they made, by the way,
was to delay the vote on our amendment. So the
so the city Council put together a resolution to change
the charter, which would have to go onto the ballot
for the people to vote. Before it ends up on
the ballot, the Charter Commission, which is disappointed body, has
to review the language and refer it back to the
City Council. Now, the City Council, UM can still put

(06:56):
it on the ballot, even if the Charter Commission doesn't
think we should. But the Charter Commission has to get
us a recommendation. They decided to run out the clock,
so to speak. They never gave us a recommendation back
and uh at which meant which meant that we could
not vote to put it on the ballot um that
sound yeah, yeah. I was halfway through describing it where

(07:23):
I was like, I'm missing steps, which, wow, I'm saying
a lot and I'm still missing steps. So so that's
where we are now. I think that a part of
how we got there was that. So we tried to
do this back in UM when I first got onto
the council, so I was I was elected in November

(07:44):
for those that don't know, and started my term, and
it was one of the first things we did was
trying to change the charter. Um. We were trying to
make a less significant change. I think we basically wanted
the council to be able to write policies for the police.
As it stands, the Minneapolis City Council has no authority
over the police um and so it's just the mayor
has complete authority over over the police department. So we

(08:06):
tried to change the charter back in UM, and we
were sort of out We sort of were outmaneuvered by
this narrative that like, oh, you know, how is a
police chief ever gonna function with thirteen bosses? Thirteen bosses?
Everybody was saying, how like it would be chaos if
we had a public safety safety system that was managed
by thirteen bosses, which is which is how every other
department in the city is run by the way, and

(08:27):
I think that like you know, the roads get plowed
and like potholes get filled, and you know, the trash
gets taken out, fine, right, but for police it's not
It's apparently not an appropriate system to have. That's all
we're trying to do in Uh. You know, public opinion
wasn't with us then, uh, And so it's something we
largely I think as a council let go. And then obviously,

(08:48):
with the murder of George Floyd, our our inability to
really create policy and and and manage the police or
have authority over the police came rushing back to our
face and was like, okay, you had the right instincts.
Uh you made you need to start pursuing this again.
So that's what we started doing. Um, but we were
a little late to we we we were a little

(09:09):
late to proposing it, which is what allowed the Charter
Commission to run off the clock. Wow, so what are
the next steps for this? So I think that we're um,
who is on the Charter Commission, Like I don't understand.
So the charter it's a it's an unelected body, it's
it's it's sort of uh. It was put together via

(09:30):
state statute to say, you know, if you're going to
make change to your city's charter, UM, you've got to
have UM essentially a panel full of of supposed experts
that vet whether or not your charter change is appropriate
for the charter or whether what you want to and
trying and charter should actually be an ordinance or whatever.

(09:52):
So conceptually it sounds good, but in a reality, who's
that who? Who for specifically for you? Who is on?
Is it a bunch of old white guys like I
don't know, Yes, it's a bunch of older It's a
bunch of like older and in some cases very old
white um white men, mostly some older white women. Um.

(10:16):
There were there were two two members. I think we're
like folks of color, newer, younger folks of color. But
but it's generally but but again they're appointed by a
single judge, the entire um commission. And so and then
what we learned in this process was that the Charter
Commission actually UM isn't full of folks who are experts
in city charters. Right, Um, these are folks who who

(10:38):
were interested, willing to volunteer their time and UM and
every once in a while get to have a lot
of power. They mostly um oversee municipal word boundaries after
every census. So what are the next? Sorry, no, no, no,
that's fine. So so I think we we we want
to tee this up for proposed. Is it early enough

(11:00):
to where the Charter Commission can't run out the clock?
You know, again with the Charter Commission can if we
we can propose language, the Charter Commission can send it
back to as saying don't put this on the ballot,
and we can put it on the ballot anyway, but
they do have to give us a recommendation. And so
I think that um, the plan is to propose this

(11:21):
um with enough time UM that which doesn't allow the
Charter Commission to run out the clock, and we can
get this ballot. UM. I do think that that presents
a different kind of challenge. I don't know how much
how much time you guys spend interacting with like elected
officials of which I am one, but I would say
that I'm worried that some of my colleagues won't want

(11:42):
to have this on the ballot when they're on the ballot.
And um. And while I think that, I think that
that's you know, my personal opinion is that's ridiculous. But um,
but it is something that could go from Okay, this
is a unanimously past thing to all of a sudden
it's really in jeopardy, right, that that can happen with
people making the kinds of political calculus they make. Well,

(12:04):
especially since uh, this first push or not first, as
you have explained, but right now, this moment in time
has fueled so much by George Floyd, by the protests,
by the nationwide attention, by all of this, and um,
and so this decision was made. Unfortunately, this all this

(12:25):
stuff happened. But yes, the next time it comes on
the ballot, who knows what public opinion looks like. Who
knows everything changes so quickly? Right right? Right? Yeah? When
the pressure is off? Is are people gonna rise to
the occasion? I think that's a that's a valid question.
You know. I like to think that I try to
govern in a way to where I don't have to
make those kinds of calculations. Um. You mentioned I'm a

(12:46):
visual artist and and like you know, every day, it
just sort of baffles me that I'm not like drawing
comics right now, and uh, which is which is what
it is, what I love doing. But I think this
is important work. I'm not willing to sort of sacrifice
and I think is the right thing to do in
order to keep this job, in large part because you know,
if I don't keep this job, I go back to
drawing comics. And that's that's not that's not a bad

(13:07):
case scenario for me. What made you decided to run
for office in the first place. So I grew up,
born and raised in in North Minneapolis, which, if folks
don't have context, that's sort of like the the black
neighborhood of of Minneapolis. When a couple of years ago,
in neighbor of mine who I didn't know him personally,

(13:28):
but actually had some connection with his older siblings. His
sister used to do my sister's hair actually, but Jama
Clark was was murdered by the Minneapolis police. This is
before I was in office. And so this is somebody
in my neighborhood killed blocks away from where where I
grew up, and um, and I was down at those
at the protests every day. At that time. I wasn't

(13:50):
really um, super neck deep into activism. Obviously, my my
my parents have always been involved in in in politics. Um.
Uh and and and I've always said had had had
a had some proximity to politics and activism. But I
myself was in my studio most days, and the death
of Jamark Clark sort of brought me out of my
studio and to the protest. Uh. You know, after after

(14:14):
those the protests sort of ended around Jamar Clark. UM.
I know, I had probably done more engagement with city
Hall at that time than I had ever done. I
got a project working, I got I got a commission
to do a project in city hall um as an artist,
and I was working with one of the city departments.
And I learned a lot about the city in that
time as well. And um and uh And I guess

(14:38):
the short version is that learning so much about municipal government,
being really disillusioned and disappointed with my representative at the time,
I thought, you know what, uh, and having a lot
of community members asked me to run UM sort of
pushed me into running. And I really my goal was
to address gentrification more than anything. UM. Which is you know,
economic displacement and everything. But obviously, UM, this issue around

(15:03):
policing and and community safety UM is a huge one
and and it's it's definitely sort of dominated my time
in office, especially the last couple of months, well together
everything down. Was there a kind of understanding when you know,

(15:28):
the George Floyd was murdered and the protests startup, was
there kind of understanding it all that like police violence
kind of has to be the thing that we pivot
on right now, like not just for for Minneapolis, but
because like we're kind of in a position to set
uh an example for the rest of the country. Like

(15:50):
was there any sort of like feeling of that um
or was were you kind of totally focused on sort
of dealing with with, you know, the the immediate issues
in front of you. Yeah, I think that I think
that the national and maybe even global conversation really was
like we we tried to not make it front and
center in our minds, right. Uh. You know, a part

(16:11):
of it is that some of this work that we
were advocating, we we knew these problems existed. I guess
in short, you know, we we had uh. One of
just since I've been in office. Um, the police have
been caught um injecting people with ketamine. Uh you know,
as they're being arrested for no other reason than like
maybe they mouthed off to a cop or something, right,
and the cops tells the MT to inject that person

(16:32):
with ketamine until they're uh totally inebriated against their will.
So that was a scandal when I first got in office. Uh,
we had a we we had a we had a
we had a drug sting conducted that was that was
considered to be so riddled with like racial bias that

(16:54):
the that the county prosecutor wouldn't prosecute any of the charges. Right,
there's like massive drug sting and uh and and uh
and I don't know how much you know about like
Mike Freeman, but he's not like you know, he's not
like an activist, uh you know, prosecutor, but he looked
at this case and he said, Okay, there's so much
racial bias here, I can't prosecute this case. We've had

(17:14):
Um Uh, we got caught our police department got caught
lying about the number of one tested rape kids they had.
They had something like ten times more the number that
they reported to the state and so like we've had
these issues, right, like with the police department, UM and
UM and so I think the murder of George Floyd,
like I think I think it it for a lot

(17:36):
of my colleagues, UM, me and and Steve Fletcher and
and Lisa Bender and and Philip Cunningham, we've all we've
we've kind of been like, uh oh and Cam Gordon,
we've kind of been like the the the leftist candidates
who like every year we're trying to pull a little
bit of money out of the police department every year.
We we maybe have enough for a little bit, maybe

(17:56):
we don't have the votes to get anything past. But
all of sudden, for the rest of my colleagues, I
think the urgency of this issue just came rushing forward.
Uh And it was like, oh, no, we've we've we've
got a much more massive issue than I think a
lot of my college were willing to acknowledge. Yeah, can
you walk me through. I'm very curious, Like that first
that first meeting y'all had after UM, after the uprising started,

(18:20):
right after the like like these protests start to sweep
through Minneapolis and kind of spread violent virally around the country.
What is your first day back together? Uh with that
is your new reality? Like like I like did that
just kind of like swamp everything that was sort of
on the table temporarily? Like what was Yeah, I'm I'm

(18:41):
really curious what it was like to be in that room.
This is uh, this is like totally like this might
sound pretty weird. So so we don't have like session, right,
we're just sort of working all year, but periodically four
times during during four weeks out of the year that
that are aren't that aren't together. They're sort of sprinkled
out the year. We we have a week where there's

(19:02):
no meeting, there's no committee meetings, no council meeting, so
and it's called like award week. And often this is
when council members will like take that you know, they'll
take their trip up to Duluth or whatever. So George
Floyd was killed during award week, which meant that we
went a kind of a an unusual amount of time
without a committee meeting, without a council meeting, without meeting

(19:23):
at all, right, because we just didn't have we just
happened to not have any meetings uh that week, and
so um so it felt like forever. It actually felt
like forever. It felt like it almost felt like it, like,
you know, especially with me doing night patrols, Like during
the day I'm doing interviews uh with like local news
and national news, I'm going to the protests, and at night,
I'm e they're out doing patrols or whatever. So I

(19:45):
wasn't sleeping at all, um, And so that week ended
up feeling like a month. Uh. And and I think
that uh, when we finally did come back together as
a council, it felt like it had been a long time,
even though it probably hadn't. And so we passed that resolution.
I remember that much. We end up passing that resolution uh,
saying that we're going to replace the police department, and
I think we tried to set in motion a few things,

(20:08):
and then we also had to do a budget revision
of the budget because we're facing this shortfall due to coronavirus,
and so all of those things ended up sort of
sort of hitting us at the same time. And so uh,
and we're disconnected from each other. We're had all of
our council meetings are exactly like this. We're not in
the chamber like we usually are. Uh. And so uh

(20:29):
and so yeah, So I think it felt like I
think it felt a little surreal, But I don't remember
the meeting being particularly like noteworthy other other than the
fact that we passed that resolution. Um. So yeah. And
you know, one of the things that's been interesting to
me here in Portland is, you know, it happened a
little later for us when we became like the big
national story, but we did. We've had a couple of

(20:51):
different periods of that now um and it's it's, among
other things, involved taking like communities within our city and
putting them in national spotlight. And suddenly everybody, all these
people you know, would have been working with are are
on CNN and NBC in the New York Times, and
like it's this, it's it's it's very surreal. It happened
to all of the Portland journalists, like the local reporters

(21:13):
I've been working with, and now it's happening to all
of our like local far right and fascist activists after um,
after Jay Danielson was shot. Um. And it's very weird
these like little communities that like had never really been
that prominent suddenly being like at the center of the
national conversation. For like four days, right, Like that's how

(21:33):
it tends to work. Um, And the same thing happened
to y'all. I'm wondering, uh, you know, because that story
once like you voted, you know, replaced the police department,
like that was that was the the one of the
biggest stories in the country for days. Um, in a
way that almost nothing is anymore. What was it like
getting all of that attention directed on all of you

(21:55):
And how did it sort of impact y'all's you know,
ability to do what you were trying to do, like
they actually do your jobs. Yeah, well, you know we
there there are two grow groups here, once called Reclaimed
the Block and other one's Black Visions Collective, who as
far as the defundmentment movement goes, uh, you know, they

(22:16):
were these tiny volunteer organizations back in ten who are
advocating that we take money out of the police then
and so they've just sort of been marching along as
the years go by, um, making the same making the
same demand year after year with with with very getting
with while getting very little attention. And so uh and
so here we were in this moment that was really

(22:37):
I think vindicating for for these organizing groups um and uh.
And I think that a lot of my colleagues recognized
that we had been getting pushed by these local organizations
that entire time, and we were trying our best to
center their advocacy in the conversation. And so I know
that you know, uh, they did get covered a lot,

(22:57):
and they were you know, uh, Black Visions Collective was
featured on the cover of the New York Times, uh,
New York Times and everything and so um and so
that certainly happened, and and and all of that stuff
is sort of complicated because in some ways we were
getting a lot of attention. It was overwhelming. All my
colleagues were on you know, we were getting we're on

(23:17):
like national you know, uh MSNBC and CNN or whatever,
which is like this this weird sort of cycle that
each your time and eventually and it's exciting at first
and eventually just feels all not that not that fruitful. Um.
But uh, but you're also not leaving your house the
entire time, right like for the most part, and so

(23:38):
uh as and so it's if it weirdly feels like
a lot and like um and like very little at
the same time, if that makes sense. So because you're
social distancing and you're not you're not leaving the house
and aside from doing the nightly patrols, I wasn't really
leaving the house all that much. So yeah, and uh,

(23:59):
what would what what's next? Like, how do you if
this is like this is the dream, this is the goal,
like replace your police department? Um, what do what do you?
What are you going to do next? Like what what do?
What do you? What has to be done next in
order to actually make this happen? How do you stop
this from kind of turning into one of those uh,

(24:21):
one of those things that that sort of dies on
the vine, Like that's obviously I think what the what
kind of the opposition to it hopes will happen is
that if they can slow it down long enough, people
will people won't have the focus to see it through,
which you know, there's a good chance they're right. That's
how America works. We lose the thread and forget to

(24:43):
do or Kennedy get shot or whatever, and like yeah,
we we we stopped, you know, doing the thing that
we were doing and go back to pretending nothing needs
to be Yeah, how do you stop? How do we
how do you move how do you how do you
stop that from happening here? Yeah, I think that in
large part a part of why I ended up messaging

(25:04):
you actually was because I think I have been feeling
that a little bit, right like that this this this
slow death that happens when you try to do something bold, um,
you hit a few stumbling blocks and now it's just
sort of like the slow death march. Right. Um. I
think that the way that we prevent that from happening
is is a few things. One is um our our

(25:26):
local activist base, I think is going to remain active. Right.
They have been year after year. They didn't just spring
onto the scene after the murder of George Floyd. They've
been in council chambers every year sort of making this
demand and and and now they've got a lot of
wind under their sales and I'm hoping that they take
advantage of that um and continue to put pressure on
the council. So that's that's one I think for my part,

(25:47):
um as a council member, as an elected I've got
to go out and have a lot of conversations with
constituents that maybe couldn't happen um immediately after the murder
of George Floyd. Because one of the things that is
being politicized as the way to too slow and derail
this conversation is that, um, you know, every city in
America has had sort of like a rise in in
in in violent incidences, in crime, right, and so that

(26:09):
you know, a lot of what the local media has
been publishing. You see these headlines from our local papers saying,
you know, crime rises as council continues. It's it's its
path towards defunding the police. You know, homicides at all
at a five year high as counsel looks to disand
dismantle the police. And so they're trying to link this
idea that somehow, um, this increase in violent incidences is

(26:33):
correlated with the council's demand that we do public safety differently,
and um say, the same thing in Portland too, like
we got rid of our gun violence task Force because
it's horrifically violent. Gun violence has also spiked, and they're like, well,
it's clearly because of this. It's like, well, there's also
a giant plague and everybody's everybody there's a number of

(26:56):
things that have happened. Yeah, yeah, I mean I was
dealing the like a couple like a week ago, I
was you know, I was advocating for, you know, working
with our county to get this homeless shelters. We also
have this huge homeless encampment issue here in Minneapolis, and
it's not our first one. Uh and and uh and
homelessness is increasing. It's been increasing every single year, but

(27:17):
it's getting really bad because of coronavirus. You know. I
was advocating that that this abandoned building and my ward
be used as a shelter, be converted into a shelter,
and my constituents were just like, I mean not all
of them obviously, but the ones who showed up to
these public meetings and onto these zoom calls, they were
so against it. And and obviously I worked for my
constituents and I have incredible amount of respect for my constituents,

(27:38):
but I just couldn't quite put two and two together
with there are. It was like people would get up
there and say things like, you know, our children are
dying and you want to put a homeless shelter here,
And it's like, how is that a sentence like that?
How does this homeless shelter effect? Right? Right? Like? How like,
how does the homeless shelter right exactly? Also, and those

(27:59):
houseless people are someone's children, humans work. I find that
interesting that, you know, as an elected official, reconciling something
that you know to be good and important to you
in your tenure versus also what your constituents are showing

(28:20):
up to say. And not just that, I mean the
people that show up in our vocal aren't or a
subset of it. They're not necessarily what ever brought or
opinion is right right there. The angry ones are going
to show up, always show up, right, Um. But you know,
we needed sort of like we needed sort of a
couple of different governmental bodies to play ball. The city,

(28:43):
I'm at. The city we were on board, the county
was obviously on board, and the last sort of unit
of government sort of chickened out and just was like
we're we're not gonna you know, uh, And we needed
all three in order to make the shelter happen. So,
you know, so, like I think that this whole narrative
that like this conversation around public safety and the lease
and defunding the police is connected to violence, and then

(29:03):
when people don't feel safe, then they just you know,
they kind of get that that that nimbi impulse, and
they're just like, no homeless shelter, no affordable housing, no
poor people around me at all, Right, Like that's sort
of like this this weird um gut reaction that that
some people have, um when they feel like their safety
is under threat. And so like, um, you know, to
get kind of to your question, I think that, um,

(29:26):
you know, obviously there's the nuts and bolts of what
we have to do, but but that that cold conversation
around the homeless shelter showed me. It was kind of
like a proxy conversation really about people feeling like secure,
right and feeling like they have a voice, and and
it made me realize that like, if we want to
pull this off, you know, people aren't. It's not impossible

(29:48):
to persuade someone who who who a constituent who comes
to me and says, hey, councilmember, I don't understand why
you're looking to defund the police when we're when we're
seeing this increase in violence. And I tend, on a
one on one basis, I tend to be able to
I'm able to have those conversations pretty well, and I'm
able to explain to them the logic, and I'm able
to explain to them that, like, you know that actually

(30:10):
police don't enforce safety that like that that the entire
structure of policing um is in some ways built upon
a lie that it keeps us safer. It eats up
a lot of resources, and resources aren't unlimited. So when
we so when we're dropping you know, of our city
budget into our policing institution, Uh, that does mean that

(30:32):
other things can't other services can't happen, right. Um. You know,
it's not difficult to have a conversation with people. You know,
folks will often say, oh, well, who's gonna um um,
who's gonna um, who's gonna solve rapes? Right? And like
our our police department has no clearance rate on that, right,
and so it's like nobody, nobody is doing that now

(30:56):
and so um, and so if that's a way in
which you expect to be kept safe, then then then
we you and I should talk about that and we
as a community need to come up with a structure
that's actually gonna keep you safe in that way. But
police and policing is not it. And so um, I
think that we're going to have to have hundreds of
those kinds of conversations. Um, you know, some of it
is encouraging. You know, I've been doing like these socially

(31:18):
distance backyard conversations in my ward. Um, just because the
you're so depersonalized on these zoom calls that like people
will just hijack your meeting and just scream into into
the into the abyss until everybody's frustrated and logs off.
And so I've been doing them in person, even though
it's a little bit danger more dangerous, but but we've
managed it. And um and uh, and I remember, you know,

(31:40):
there's this one woman I happened to have been born
and raised in the war that I live in. You know,
I just have never moved. Some people move, and some
of my colleagues are from different parts of the city,
are parts of the country, and uh, they've they've made
miniats their home. This has been my home my entire life.
And so I had this one constituent who's like, you know,
who's like I've known you since you were you know,
four years old, And I feel bad saying this, but

(32:03):
like I can't support you anymore. Like well, you know,
it's like was yelling at me, and then like a
week later was like pulled me aside at a different
community meeting, was like, you know what, Jeremiah, I really
I hear what you're saying. And and and I get it,
you know, like I'm starting to I'm slowly starting to
get it. And so it's not impossible to to win
these arguments. But um, but if we don't have but
we don't have the power of like a headline, we

(32:24):
don't have the power of like um you know of
honestly of like the political machine of like a police Um.
Everybody will say they hate the police union, but then
they'll gobble up the police unions, talking police right, the media, everybody,
you know, And so we just don't have those kinds
of political machines that can churn out um messaging. But

(32:47):
those those little conversations, if we can continue to have
hundreds of them over the course of the next year, Um,
they do, they do stick a little harder than a
headline or or or or sort of like people being
bombarded with propaganda. Do you still think there's hope for
you know, that thing that was the headline of of

(33:08):
of Minneapolis no longer having the MP d is that
a thing that you have hoped for, not in like
the long long run, but in you know, a time
frame that's not you know, distant in the future. Yeah,
I think I do have hope for that. I think that,
you know, and I also think that and maybe this

(33:29):
is like a little bleak. I don't mean to sound
de fetus, but I also think that we could make
um a push here, push harder than anybody has ever
pushed before. UM that you know that we sort of
have a more centrist backlash in these local elections. Maybe
all the leftists on the council lose their elections were
up and then and then the work is undone. But

(33:51):
even that would be a success because to me, if
we can if we can create an example that can
even be pointed to later down the line for somebody
to follow, that's that's a plus for me. Now, my
hope is that, uh, we're gonna get this done. We're
going to establish the Office of of Public Safety and
Violence Prevention UM, and we're gonna slowly start to shrink
the footprint of the police while we beef up these

(34:14):
other services UM with regards to mental health response and
YadA YadA, YadA. I'm hoping that we can do that
start to do that work within the next year year
and a half. My hope was that we could do
that work, um starting this November, if we were able
to get the Charter amendment on the ballot. But with
the Charter as written, there's limits to how much we
can shrink the police force and so um, and so

(34:36):
I think I think that there is hope for that. Um.
Obviously with with all of sort of the more left
leaning council members, you know, being on the ballot. If
you know, if if we all lose our elections, that
will tell us everything we need to know about how
successful we were in in persuading our constituents to go
this direction with us. No, I mean, I'm I'm just

(34:57):
curious when it comes to because this is the thing
we're also dealing with in Portland, right is, like all
of this is happening, and everybody claims that the majority
of people are on their side, right, the police claim that, like, uh,
the right wing claims, you know, the left wing claims,
and I and you know, it's not like the presidential election.
There's not a bunch of polsters wandering around Minneapolis or
Portland trying to figure out how people feel about this stuff,

(35:19):
because that's just shot polsters, posters go for like the
big national ship. See you're kind of in the dark.
Do you have any is it really going to be
a situation where like one we're just gonna learn if
we get reelected that they that they're on board or not. Um,
do you have any other kind of like barometers that
you're able to tell sort of where people are right now? Uh? Yeah, yeah,

(35:40):
a little bit. So. So one of the things is, um,
these are you know, these positions are extremely local, right,
Like I represent in no uncertain terms my neighbors, right, Like, um,
if you're a congress person, right, Like my congress person
is Ilhan Omar, who I love and I think it's great. Um,
But like Ilhan represents a large swath of people. She

(36:02):
can't possibly know everybody in her who she represents, right
And in Washington, d C. I'm kind of I represent
few enough people that I can kind of know a
lot of them, right, And so um that puts me
in a position to, you know, so I might so
I might get you know a lot of folks, um,
you know, at a community meeting or by a lot.
I mean, like fifteen or twenty saying one thing right,

(36:24):
telling me that I shouldn't be pursuing this path. Um.
I might get a pastor that says, you know, this
is this is crazy, Jeremiah. You know the police. You
know one time the church was broken into and the
police were helpful. Right, But I'm also gonna get like
another pastor who says just the opposite. And when I'm
walking my dog, um um, you know in the morning,
I'm going to get a ton of neighbors to just

(36:45):
run out and tell me I'm doing a great job. Right.
So there's a So I think that there's a there's
a you represent few enough people in these positions to
be able to get some sense. Your neighbors aren't pelting
you with rocks as you are as well as I
walk the dog, and I take that as a good sign.
And so um, and so I think so that's one way.
We did have one of our local organizations reached out

(37:05):
to an organization that does polling. And we do know
that the that the the the prospective charter language was
polling well. Right now, does that mean that the charter
language was not quite like a defund or abolished the
police charter. That's not what it would have done. What
what the charter language would have done was allowed us
a lot of flexibility to take public safety in different

(37:26):
different directions. Um. And it was polling well and we
do know that, right, And so I think that those
are some of the things that are sort of continuing
to give me hope about you know, what's you know,
how people are feeling. But by and large, I do
think it will be hard to know how people are feeling,
um until until local elections. Um. And uh, you know,

(37:50):
and I again, I'm I'm very rooted in my ward
because I grew up here. Um, but you know, it's
hard to It's hard to know. Um if if we
if I one of my colleagues who's sort of I
would say, more on the left, even one of them
loses their election, Um, all of a sudden, you know,
I think I think it becomes a lot harder for
us to be to mount this progressive push on a

(38:13):
consistent basis welcome together, everything down, down down. So yeah,
I mean they are to some extent just sort of
waiting to learn if people like what you're trying to do.
When you get to do it, so it's the kind

(38:34):
of thing if you get back, if you get re
elected in one, you have a lot more power to
actually push this through to the end and make this
ship happen. Yeah, I can basically take that as like
a mandate from the people. Whereas right now I'm operating
a lot on instincts, you know, right, right, right, and
you know, in completely unprecedented times, which I just want

(38:56):
to say, you know, from the perspective of someone who
is watching a guy like I'm I'm I'm looking at
like our mayor here in Portland, Uh is a feckless coward? Um,
I would I can say as an objective journalist, right, Like,
it's not an opinion that that's that's like, that's something
I can prove mathematically that he's a feckless coward. I'll

(39:18):
go into court and testify that. I'll talk, I'll sit
down with the FBI and tell them that, like, right, like,
I I feel confident in arguing that as a matter
of fact rather than opinion. Um, every other question you
want your lawyer, But if they ask you that, yeah, no,
he is absolutely like we we can yes, I'm happy
to tell you this. Um uh yeah, So and I

(39:40):
it's this, it's this. The thing that has been so
disgusting with him is that he's this guy who clearly
thought this would be an easy gig because he was
running like sixteen. He was thinking Hillary was going to
be national like Hill, be part of this big blue wave.
He'll do is four years as the mayor of Portland,
and then he'll move on to the governorship or who
go into Congress or whatever, and that'll this will be
part of his pathway maybe did the presidency or to

(40:02):
a cabinet position or something. Um. And you know, he
winds up becoming mayor at a very difficult time to
be mayor in Portland, and he completely fails to rise
to the challenge and punts on every critical issue, and
a tremendous number of people are hurt and a significant
number of people are killed as a result of is
at least a partial result of his complete inability to
sort of rise to and deal with the situation that

(40:24):
he found himself in. And it's been very much the
opposite for you in your colleagues, like you have been,
you found yourself in this completely fucking unprecedented position. UM,
I feel confident saying no, no city council member of
Minneapolis in recent memory has had to deal with something
like this, right, oh, eight crash, like the financial crash, right,

(40:45):
like that's the closest. Yeah, And there wasn't a pandemic. Yeah,
and people didn't burn down the third nobody. So I
I just I think it's it's deeply honorable and impressive
the way in which y'all have at least met this
head on, right, Like, we'll see how it all works

(41:06):
out in the end, But you didn't flinch from the
fact that, like you were in a position of power
during a moment of historic import and and instead you
tried to do something And that's, uh, that's wonderful. Yeah. No,
I appreciate that. And I think that, like, you know,
I can be an incredibly competitive person, you know, I

(41:27):
think that I don't know how you even run for
office if you're not at least a little bit competitive
and so um and so you know, a part of
me like is not quite ready to to to pat
us on the back, right and like and I know
that like, um, you know, even even as some of
the arguments came out, like when we were when we
were pushing for the charter change, which all my colleagues,

(41:49):
I think, on paper agree it was a um um,
you know, the good the best direction to go and
allow us a lot of flexibility. And you've seen, I've
seeing just a number of my colleagues already start to
buckle to this really this propaganda that somehow the increase
in violence is linked to this discussion that we're trying
to have, right and and I and I just like

(42:11):
you know, and I think that this is winnable, right Like,
I think this is winnable. And I won't give myself
any credit until until we win it um or or
until we just completely completely fail. Um and so and
so I'm I'm I'm hoping, I guess all that to say,
I'm I'm I'm cautiously hopeful that that that people are
ready to have this conversation. And when you think about

(42:33):
like what the what we imagine the police to do
and what they actually do, you know, there's this huge disconnect,
right my my colleague, one of my colleagues, um um,
I don't know if he would want to be named,
so so I won't name him. But one of my
colleagues talked about, uh, you know, sort of how the
police expected his right along to be this like eye

(42:55):
opening experience of like how hard their job was and
you know, and and what he discovered. You know, it's
just like just how like how little accountability there is,
right and how much time is wasted. And also you know,
we have certain procedures. For instance, you know, if if
a cop gets gets shoved, they can basically press a

(43:18):
button on their uniform and every single cop in the
city will go go to them to help them with
their with what they're dealing with the yeah, yeah, right,
right right. And it's like it's like and it's like
do people know that at any given moment in the
middle of the night, like they think that police are
patrolling their neighborhood, but like maybe every single police in
the city is like over at um over along the

(43:41):
lake because some teenager head butted a cop or something.
You know, Like, you know, it's like our practices are
are extremely inefficient, are our police's methods are extremely brutal?
Um they demand zero accountability um and and nothing has
proven that more. You know, if you if we had
even any cops at all who were who were who

(44:01):
are out there publicly saying you know, hey, you know
what We're not afraid of bar oversight because we think
what we do is totally on the up and up.
Then like that would make that would sort of make
you know, I would have I think a harder conversation, um,
you know, with my constituency, with myself about what the
right thing to do is. But but at every turn, um,

(44:21):
our police union did this media blitz and UM that
was supposed to be sort of like there, um, oh
my god, look at us. The council is picking on us,
and uh, they continued to make sort of gaff after gaffs.
One of the women was like, uh, was asked a
question about we only have about um, uh, about six
or seven percent of our cops actually live in the city, right, Um,

(44:45):
and so of our police officers on the Minneapolis Police
Department don't live in the city. And she was asked
a question. One of their union reps was asked a
question and she said, oh, well, like Minneapolis, Uh, grocery store.
I don't want to be at the grocery stores with
my two beautiful girls and and like running into rapeis
and murderers. And it's like, what do you think going

(45:06):
to the grocery store? I mean this is like, you know,
that doesn't Yeah, it doesn't seem like you like this
community very not at it doesn't seem like you consider
yourself a part of this community. For somebody with a
gun going around isn't great to have. Absolutely, you know you, Um, Robert,

(45:32):
you made you made a good point on on one
of your episodes from Behind the Police that was like,
you know, um, police didn't even have guns as standard
issue until like the nineteen forties. I'm quoting you, So
I'm hoping hoping your infos right on that. Well, it was,
it was, it was a bit it was bit earlier
than that, But yeah, they didn't initially have firearms standard issue,
like especially even in the early nineteen hundreds, right, I mean,

(45:53):
and so I think about like how how difficult it is,
like once there's something about our collective imagination in terms
of like what it means to be safe or what
keeps us safe? Uh, that that that that doesn't allow
us to even reconsider fairly new concepts. I mean, the
Minneapolis Police Department has only been in existence for about

(46:16):
a hundred and fifty years. I think it's a hundred
and fifty three years. And so for a hundred and
fifty three years, which in the grand scheme of things
is not that long. We've basically done public safety one
way and we've never tried anything else. Uh. And yet
if you were to tell people, you know what, if
we were to build a public safety system that wasn't

(46:36):
this one. Uh, they just act like, you know, they
act like, you know, well, this is how they did
it when Jesus was around. This is how well not
quite like you know, like, there's there's got to be
other ways, you know, this isn't this wasn't like yeah, yeah,
I think one of the things that really bums me
out is um and this is like a broader issue
for me, is the is what's happened with television in

(47:00):
broad And I'm not trying to be like an old
man TVs corrupting kids, but like what is on television
is a reflection of what we're able to imagine as
a culture. Right. And so you know, in the in
the nineties, we had, uh, you had shows like Star
Trek the Next Generation which were like this this really
optimistic view about the future. And even before then, when
I was when I was a little kid, the show

(47:21):
that my parents would show me, UM that that was
like their view of like this is how, this is
how the country ought to operate. Was The Andy Griffith Show,
which was a show about a sheriff named Andy Griffith
and like small town America and like the fifties or
something like that. And one of the things that was
like one of the things about Andy as a sheriff

(47:43):
is that he didn't carry a gun. And there were
actually a couple of episodes that were all focused around
the fact that he refused to carry a gun because
he he thought that if he if he went into
a conflict situation carrying a gun, then people would see
him as someone who was primarily there to use force
to to to like make them comply, and that's not

(48:03):
what he wanted to be because his goal was to
make his community safer, and so he thought that that
walking into situations with a gun actually made his community
less safe, and so he didn't do it. Um And
that was like one of those popular shows on American
television and like the sixties or whatever, the radical idea, Yeah,

(48:23):
in no way would you get that on TV today,
Like they're like it's not and this is again, this
is obviously a time when like like sucking everybody in
Andy's town pretty much as a white person. So I'm
not trying to say like the Andy Griffith Show was
like some perfect you know. But but but the fact
that the fact that back in those days, you could
have a show where it's like, would it be neat

(48:44):
if cops didn't carry guns? And everybody's kind of like, yes,
that is nice. Um, And now it's just inconceivable that
you would have a TV show, in an American TV
show about American cops who are unarmed. Oh man, Yeah,
you know. There was a there was a funny there
was like an interview with uh with Boots Riley where

(49:04):
he was talking about how like, you know, superhero films,
which like I grew up on comics. I love, I love, like,
you know, all the superhero films. But he said a
lot of these superhero film films are are cop movies
right there there, movies, and um and that has made it,
you know, really mad at Boots Riley for saying that,
because that has made it really difficult for me to
enjoy superhero films. Um. But I went back recently and

(49:25):
I was watching, Um, I was watching like Batman begins
and in the Dark Night, and like, you know, those
movies to me are now basically unwatchable, not because uh,
you know, there's the obvious sort of ridiculous premise of
like Batman joke or these characters that are like whatever,
but like there there are just these little assumptions that

(49:45):
aren't supposed to be a part of the fantasy, right,
Like Batman is supposed to be the fantasy, and Scarecrow
is supposed to be the fantasy part of the story.
But there are these little things that aren't supposed to
be a part of the fantasy, but might be a
little bit more fantasy than the concept of Batman. One
of them is at like the treatment of like criminals
in those movies. It's almost like it's almost like being

(50:06):
a criminal is encrypted into your DNA, right, this this
this idea. And so sometimes I'll hear constituents and the
way that they talk about the homeless or the poor
or criminal or the people are people who commit crimes,
and the way to talk about it just feels baffling
to me, And I'm just like I can't, I can't
under I can't get on the same page with them.
And then I watch Batman begins and I'm like, oh,
this is what this is their concept of who a

(50:28):
criminal is, right, this is what they It's just this
person who is inherently this way, doesn't matter their life circumstances.
You know. That's why when I'm talking about um jobs
program or whatever or the economy, that sounds that sounds
bizarre and besides the point to them, because to them,
the criminals just sort of this inherent you know, almost

(50:50):
you know, genetic thing within a person. Um. And that
when I got got up there and said that we're
going to dismantle the police department, all the criminals heard
me and decide that I was giving them a free
pass to to go commit crimes. I mean, that's a
that's a really weird way to conceptualize why crime happens
in my opinion, right, um and so uh and so

(51:11):
I think that like and and so we're up against
the kind of mythology that that like that like Batman
begins in you know, in shrines in crypts into people.
Then like that's that's that's a tall hill. It could
be a pretty tall hill to to overcome. Not only
not only that, um, there are criminals and they're just
like that's how they are, and that's how they're always

(51:32):
going to be. But that also there will always be crime.
Like not only is that embedded in the criminals, but
crime is embedded in our communities, and there's nothing to
do about it other than well you stop him and
you put him in jail. Oh and then if they
get out, well they're gonna do another crime, because there's
always gonna be criminals. There's no there's no solution to it. Really,
absolutely absolutely yeah. I had I had a police officer

(51:54):
say to me, um, uh he called me and we
kind of got into an argument, and he was like, uh,
he had made a statement that I had actually applauded
him for like a couple of months ago. He had
made a statement saying something like, you know, three to
six percent of cops shouldn't be cops. And I remember
at the time, I was like, oh man, it's almost
like a revolutionary thing to admit these days, right, be

(52:16):
a little higher, but yeah, right right right, So so
I remember. So then like a couple of months later,
you know, I you know, he's calling me because he
was upset about my position around dismantling the police department
and and and uh and we're having this this conversation,
and he says, oh, you know me, you know, uh Jeremiah, Like,
I'm gonna say, I'm gonna call it like I see it.
I'm gonna say whatever I want to say. You know,

(52:38):
I stood up there and said that three three or
six percent of cops shouldn't be cops and and the
same way that you know, three three to six percent
of the community needs to be locked up. I was like,
I was like, I was like, that is not the same.
I was like, no, not, um, and this is and

(53:04):
this is coming from one of the this is coming
from an officer who you know, I think prior to
that conversation, I would say, like kind of gets it
better than most of officers. Sure, the fact that he's
willing to admit that a significant portion of police shouldn't
be police again, something right, right, right? So if a

(53:24):
guy who kind of gets it is getting it that wrong,
like what what what what do we think those guys
you know in in the squad cars are are saying
doing thinking, Um, it's it's it's unreformable. In my opinion, Yeah, yeah,
you have some you know, it's it's the hammer, it's
the hammer and nail thing, except for like the problem

(53:47):
that we're like, what we're trying to do here is
like we're trying to um to like polish glass or whatever,
and it's like, well, you know, sometimes you have hammers
that are better than others, but none of them are
the right tools for this job, right right, right, Yeah, yeah,

(54:08):
I guess the last thing I'm really curious about is
um And I don't know if this has been something
y'all have dealt with or not, but I can folks
get angry when you talk about things like, uh, getting
rid of police forces. UM, it gets it's extremely politicized
right away. I'm wondering did y'all deal with any of

(54:28):
that sort of like internet hate mob stuff coming down
on your heads after your you know, your your big
vote went very viral. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean some
of us more so than others. You know. UM, I remember,
you know, you know, I probably was getting more hate
mail than I probably ever have gotten, most of it virtual,
but then I got something sent to my house and um,

(54:51):
and then it was funny because I I like told
my dad about it was like, oh yeah, like I
got hate mail set to the house and and then
like a few hours later, I got a call and
the FBI was like, We're gonna come pick up that
hate mail from your house. So I'm like, oh, that's weird.
I don't know if I would, you know, the FBI
have my house, but um, but the but they came
and picked up the hate mail and and you know,

(55:11):
who knows what what they're going to do with it,
but um, but yeah, certainly, and and some of it
was some of it can be pretty scary. I know
that I'm lucky enough to like have a good relationship
with my neighbors. I had a lot of friends who
are legally armed themselves who were like, hey, look, you
know you're out there doing patrols at night, Like will
post up at your house and make sure that that

(55:34):
that nothing um shady's going on. But not all of
my colleagues had that. And you know, there was a
lot of my colleagues got some flag, you know, because
they accepted, you know, some private security when they were
getting very specific death threats. And I was offered that
same security. I turned it down because again, I I
just had had this network that was willing to sort
of do some of that work. And you know, and

(55:56):
I think that some of the flag is probably unwarranted
because when you're getting death threats, and especially if you're
a city councilperson, you know, look, we we got and
most of us got into into this because we're looking
to like, you know, we're we're dealing with zoning laws.
You know, we're like you know, we're we're doing like
most of them are like community planners. I'm a muralist,

(56:16):
you know. Um, and so when you start getting death threats, um,
it's hard to know exactly what you're what your next
move should be. Uh and so and so a lot
of that was scary for a lot of my colleagues,
some of whom did accept some private security um. But
again it all ended up amounting to just a lot
of hot air. Um. But you never want to just

(56:38):
assume that nobody's gonna make good on some of the
threats that you're good, Yeah, you have no idea what
those threats is that like you just can't know, right
right right? Um? So yeah, so I know, I know,
like everybody was, like I was at first hit not
taking it very seriously. But I told a few friends

(56:59):
just sort of like, hey, this is a crazy thing
that happened. Uh. And then immediately just like a bunch
of my friends were like armed posted up outside of
my house. Like I'm like, okay, all right, I appreciate
you guys. I don't know if this is necessary, but
I appreciate it. I appreciate it. So so yeah, yeah,
well all right, Um, Jeremiah, I think we're Um. That's

(57:20):
that's everything I had to ask. Um. Thank you so
much for your time. This was a great conversation. Yeah.
And for having those conversations with people individually, that's where
that's where, that's where the real convincing happens. Yeah, thank
you for taking concerted action to try to improve the

(57:40):
material conditions of human beings on planet Earth. Also, just
to our listeners, I want to point out this is
such a good example of someone getting involved on a
local level, you know, and changing politics and doing the
incremental work and sometimes the drastic work you know that
it takes to change public opinion to move the needle. Um,

(58:02):
it's vital. Thank you. Yeah. And you know, and I
think that there are right before this, right before hopping
on on this call with you all, I was on
a call with a couple of council members from from
Seattle and Austin who are all trying to move you know,
similar things to us as here in Minneapolis. And I
think that like if folks um are looking for you know,

(58:25):
I'm not gonna promise that every you know, every city
has that person that is really pushing hard. I have
no idea, but I know that there are a lot
of cities. There are some folks in New York. There
are some folks you know in Chicago that are like
you know again, city councils. It's not the sexy work
of like being in Congress or even being in like
a state house or state Assembly, but there are probably

(58:46):
some really radical folks quietly pushing. And so find those
folks because they're they're they're gonna instill a little bit
of hope, and they're gonna be maybe more courageous um.
And often a lot of folks at the local level,
Certainly there are folks at the local level who are
who are career us. But often you know, uh, you're
that city council member is not just some careers. They're

(59:07):
willing to take some big risks, say a big thing,
say a radical thing. Um. So I encourage people to
find find whoever that is in there in in their city.
Can you tell our listeners where they can find you
online or promote anything you want to promote. Yeah, so
I'm uh so Jeremiah for North on Twitter. They're welcome
to friend me on Facebook or follow my page. Uh,

(59:28):
you know, Jeremiah Ellison four ward five. Uh and uh
And I don't think I have anything to promote just
you know, other than vote in November, you know. And uh,
I guess you know, if folks opt opt not to vote,
I'm not gonna shame anybody. I don't think that works.
But um, I do think that, you know, it's it's
an important thing to do. I'm the chair of the

(59:49):
Elections and Rules Committee and so my in my city,
so I kind of have to have to advocate for
people voting. So um yeah, yeah, thank you again. And
you can check us out online is well, at worst
your pod on Instagram and Twitter. You know who we
are on Twitter. It'll be in the tweets. Yeah, you're
aware of us, You're aware, You're you know, you're fine.

(01:00:11):
Love it, you love to see it. All Right, this
took a turn. And the last thing I want to
say is my sister really appreciated the Phillish Shlackley episodes.
Yeah yeah, yeah, so uh so yes, I just wanted
to wanted to put that plug in. So. She had

(01:00:32):
learned about Phillis Shlackly when she was in college and
was like, somebody else knows what a monster? Yeah yeah,
yeah yeah yeah yeah. Well all right, that's the episode.
Everyone go get elected to your city council and remove
your own cities police departments. Go do it right now,
do it before the day is done. Like no excuses,
get out there and do it. I'm a lot stick

(01:00:53):
and everything great. I read Daniel. Worst Year Ever is
a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.