February 19, 2020 • 25 mins
Why would anyone confess to a crime they didn’t commit?
Hosts Laura Nirider and Steve Drizin, co-directors at Northwestern University’s Center on Wrongful Convictions and central figures in the smash hit Netflix docuseries Making a Murderer, introduce themselves, their work, their passion, and the origin story behind their tireless efforts to free the wrongfully convicted.
To donate, learn more, or get involved, go to http://www.centeronwrongfulconvictions.org/
Wrongful Conviction: False Confessions is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I writer,
and I'm Steve Drusen. Steve and I co direct the
Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University in Chicago. It's
one of the oldest organizations in the country dedicated to
exonerating innocent people who've been convicted of crimes they didn't commit.
Over its twenty years, the center has freed more than
(00:22):
forty innocent men, women, and children, and it's our privilege
to work there. Some of you may know me and
Steve from the Netflix show Making a Murderer, which exposed
the unjust case against our client, Brendan Dassy, or you
may have heard me on an episode from last seasons
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm, where Brendan told his own
story for the first time. On this podcast series, Steve
(00:47):
and I are going to bring you into our world,
the world of false Confessions. We're going to tell you
about cases we've worked on, innocent people we've fought for,
and our passion for making justice a reality. Today, we'll
(01:11):
start with the big question, why would anyone confess to
a crime they didn't commit? Then we'll take you inside
the interrogation room to show you how false confessions happen,
and finally a little backstory how Steve and I each
became obsessed with the problem of false confessions and how
we're not going to quit until this problem gets solved.
(01:35):
Most people assume that when someone confesses, it's because they're
guilty and because they have some sort of inner need
to unburden themselves of their guilt and the story that
they're clinging on too. But what we have discovered is
that confessions aren't always true. That in fact, we know
of hundreds of cases where someone is brought into an
(01:56):
interrogation room, questioned by the police, sometimes for hours, ends
up confessing to a crime, often a very brutal crime,
a rape or a murder, something like that, and they're
convicted on the basis of that confession, sent away to
prison for years, decades sometimes, and then an organization like
our Center on Wrongful Convictions comes along and does DNA
(02:16):
testing and discovers, beyond the shadow of a doubt that
the confession is false. We know hundreds of cases like this,
and that really gives the lie to this belief that
confessions are always true.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I think people understand that if you were tortured or
you're subjected to the kinds of tactics we saw in
Abu Grabe and Guantanamo that under those kinds of physical, abusive,
extreme sleep deprivation kind of tactics, yeah, you might say
(02:49):
some things, including confessed to some serious crimes you didn't commit.
But most of today's modern psychological interrogation techniques are all
about talking words, and so the job of the lawyer
or the expert is to try to explain the psychology
(03:09):
of interrogations to lay people, to bring them inside the
interrogation room so that they can feel the same pressure
that the suspect is under and maybe come to understand
why they themselves might confess to a crime they didn't commit.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Exactly. Every one of us has a breaking point, and
what you see in these false confession cases is the
power of the interrogation room, which is focused on identifying
that breaking point for the person being interrogated. It's an
incredibly powerful space. It's really good at getting true confessions,
but also really good at getting false confessions.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
The first thing that is essential to any interrogation is isolation.
Depriving a suspect from a lifeline to loved ones, friends' attorneys,
and so police officers take suspects in a room, a
specially designed room. It's usually a very small room. It's
(04:07):
cramped to the extent there is furniture in the room.
It's usually just a couple chairs, maybe a table pushed
to the side, because you don't want the table between
the suspect and an interrogator because it can provide a
sense of comfort for the suspect and it can minimize
the ability of the interrogator to get into the suspect's face.
(04:32):
There's no natural light in these rooms, no clocks, no telephones,
The walls are basically barren, and usually the suspect is
positioned in a corner or in a place where getting
up and leaving requires the suspect to literally go through
(04:53):
the two interrogators who are blocking the pathway to the door.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
These rooms have been around for many, many decades, but
we're only getting a glimpse into them for the first
time recently, as more and more confessions have been proven
false by DNA, states are starting to require video cameras
in interrogation rooms for the first time. Twenty four states
still don't require any kind of real time documentation, but
(05:17):
because of those twenty six states, that now requires some
sort of video camera or audio recording inside the room.
We're getting a look for the first time, and what
we're seeing is chilling.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So once you have this sense of isolation, what that
does is it fosters a dependence. The suspect becomes obliged
to do what the interrogator asks him to do, and
part of that dependence is built during the early part
of an interrogation, which involves some kind of attempt to
(05:50):
build trust between the interrogator and the suspect, something that
suggests that the interrogator is here to help the suspect.
In fact, the interrogator is the only person between the
suspect and perhaps a life sentence or a prosecutor who's
going to charge him or her with the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
When people see what happens inside the interrogation room, they're horrified.
The techniques that are used. Sure, they're psychological, Very few
cops use physical abuse any longer. But these psychological techniques
distort the world so much that suddenly it starts to
make sense that you should confess even if you're innocent,
And to watch that mind game in real time on
(06:38):
these videos is absolutely appalling.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
What I find interesting is that many people we show
these tapes to, they're accepting of the need to use
some of these tactics to get true confessions. But what
they find offensive is the way in which police officers
feed facts to suspects and actually construct a narrative that
(07:06):
isn't really the suspects confession at all. It is the
suspect affirming a preconceived theory of the police that is
shaped and constructed by the police.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
It's almost like like rehearsing a play, you know, like
scripting a story that this person has to rehearse and
get perfect and then perform for the final confession. And
this process, amazingly enough, when we show it to some audiences,
they laugh because, you know, if the goal of all
of this of interrogation our justice system is to fine truth,
(07:40):
this is such a distortion of truth that people laugh
at the absurdity of it.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
And that's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, absolutely heartbreaking, because you're watching these people's lives be
ruined in real time on these videos. All right, I'm
just going to come.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Out and ask you who shot her in the hat
he did? Why didn't you tell us that when an
entrergator says to Brendan Dacy, all right, I'm just going
to come out and tell you who shot her in
the head. It's heartbreaking because there are supposed to be
checks and balances in this process, other police officers looking
(08:17):
at the tape saying you can't do that. He has
to come up with these facts on his own. And
then there are prosecutors who, when reviewing these cases for trials,
should know that this confession is unreliable. And then there
are judges. They should see these confessions and they should say,
I'm not letting this go before a jury. This is
(08:39):
not the suspect's confession. It's constructed by the interrogators. And
then there's the jury who also has an opportunity to
weigh in on this. But time and time and time again,
it's the power of the confession itself that ends up
convicting these people.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Too often, their fate is sealed because the systems check
that should prevent false confessions from resulting in wrongful convictions
don't work. So literally, when you're watching these videos at
the interrogation room, you're watching acts of legal suicide.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
And in the worst cases, you're watching acts of psychological torture.
I mean there is a class of false confessions. They're
called either coerced persuaded, or coerced internalized. But these are
cases where police officers attack a suspect's confidence in their
own memory of events. The suspect knows they're innocent, but
(09:34):
police officers tell them perhaps they committed the crime in
a blackout, or were under the influence of drugs or alcohol,
or maybe that the trauma of killing a loved one
was so painful that they repressed the memory of what
they actually did. All of this crashes the suspect's confidence
(09:55):
in their own memory, and then police officers give them
an explanation or a reason for why they might have
committed the crime and not remembered it. At the end
of the day, some suspects can't tell the difference between
their real memories and their imagined memories, and the imagined
memories have been shaped by the interrogator's questioning exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
There are cases in which suspects are told that they
must have split personalities and the good you doesn't remember
what the bad you did. There have been cases where kids'
children have been falsely told that their loved ones on
their deathbeds accuse their own children of killing them. Then,
of course they believe that their parents would never say
such a thing unless it was true, so they begin
to construct a narrative that accounts for what they think
(10:41):
the parents had happened.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
The cases in which children confess to killing their parents,
parents confessed to killing their children, husbands confessed to killing
their wives, siblings confessed to killing their siblings, these are
these are the hardest ones to whty, just because not
only are these suspects being accused of one of the
(11:06):
worst crimes imaginable in society, not only are they struggling
with trying to remember something that they can't remember, but
they're suffering from incredible grief trauma. Yeah, and trauma. I mean,
when someone close to you is killed, especially if they've
been murdered, and you're being interrogated within hours of discovering
(11:29):
the body, you are so vulnerable to suggestions, so vulnerable
to manipulation.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Desperate for help, desperate for a friend, And that's exactly
what the interrogator wants you to think he is, and
that's exactly, of course, what he's not. I mean, you
are seeing the distortion of a mind in the interrogation room,
the poisoning of a memory, the twisting of a world,
and the creation of a profound injustice. The tactics, they're
(12:08):
basically the same across all of these false confession videos
that we have. You see a suspect being brought into
an interrogation room, confronted with an accusation, and then it's
the job of the interrogators to communicate to them, beyond
the shadow of a doubt, we know you're guilty, and
there's nothing you can say or do to convince us otherwise.
(12:29):
And sometimes it takes hours of relentless accusation to bring
the suspect down to a place of hopelessness. Then it's
the job of the interrogators to offer confession as an out,
as a way to cut your losses somehow and cling
to some shred of hope. So you'll see interrogators say
things like, look, there are two kinds of people in
(12:51):
this world. There's someone who would commit a horrible crime
like this one. Maybe someone who's done this before and
is going to go do it again, right, real monster.
We all know what happens to people like that. They're
never going to see the light of day again. But
then there are other kinds of people in this world,
people just like you or me, regular ordinary, good folks,
(13:12):
just trying to live their life, trying to do the
right thing. People who maybe they just make a bad decision,
a bad choice, they snap in a moment of stress
or frustration. We've all made mistakes. I've made a mistake
in my life, haven't you. And we all know what
happens to good people who just make mistakes. Right, people
(13:33):
want to help them. If you just made a mistake here,
the judge will look at you and want to help you.
The prosecutor will understand you better. You'll have a reason
to hope. So which one is it? Are you the
monster or are you the person who just made a mistake.
That's the choice that the person in the interrogation room has,
(13:55):
and every single one of us will choose to tell
a story of mistake in the hopes that it will
result in help. And of course, when you confess to
that crime you didn't commit in the hopes that everyone
will want to help you, it doesn't help you at all.
It seals your fate.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
In October of two thousand and seven, I got a
phone call on the other end of the line were
several attorneys who I knew and respected, and they said
to me, do you know about the case of Brendan
Dacy And I said, yes, of course I know about
the case. Stephen Avery was the first person exonerated by
(14:37):
DNA evidence in Wisconsin. It was huge news. And then
he got charged with the murder of a photographer named
Teresa Holbach in two thousand and five. And he had
a nephew named Brendan Dassi, a sixteen year old nephew
who had confessed to participating in that crime with his
(14:58):
uncle Stephen, and both of them had been convicted and
sentenced to life. And so I knew the basic background
of the case. They said to me, which you represent
Brendan Dacy on appeal. And this is the kind of
work that I was called to do. It was the
kind of work that I was doing. But I said
(15:20):
to them, send me the interrogation videos. So when the
tapes arrived, I looked at them and I decided I
was going to get involved, but I wanted a gut check.
I wanted someone else to tell me what they saw.
I had worked with one student before on a false
confession case and I assigned her to look at these recordings,
(15:43):
and that student was Laura, and I writer, that's right.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
This is about twelve years ago or so, and my
last year of law school. I decided on a whim
to sign up for your class, Steve, un wrongful Convictions.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Tell the truth? Was it? You didn't I sign up
for my class?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I thought I was signing up for someone else's class
on wrongful convictions. But I ended up in your class.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Thank god.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I decided to stick around because it got interesting real fast.
Right And about a month in Steve, you know, you
called me into your office and you said, I've just
gotten involved in this case out of Wisconsin involving a
sixteen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to
a murder that I don't think he committed. And you
(16:28):
handed me the interrogation videos of Brendon Dacy, the same
videos that like eight years later would go on to
be featured in Making a Murderer. And I watched them
from start to finish, and my heart broke.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We know he did something else to her? What else
did he do with her?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Extremely extremely im poor you tell us this for USh
to believe you? Because I saw two seasoned adult interrogators
questioning a sixteen year old, intellectually limited boy, manipulating him
into confessing to a murder that he couldn't even describe.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Did you see whether a cell phone of hers? Oh?
Do you know whether she had a camera? Oh?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I couldn't shake the feeling of wanting to jump into
the video screen and get myself between Brendan and those
interrogators who were manipulating him into confessing to a crime
he so clearly didn't commit. That was literally a life
changing moment for me. I graduated from law school and
within months I was back at Northwestern working alongside Steve
to build the Center on Wrongful Convictions and to help
(17:32):
represent Brendan and other kids just like him. Ever since, you.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Know, every once in a while you come across a student,
and Laura was a brilliant writer. I mean, let's just
be honest, she was a better writer than I was.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Can I get that in writing again?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
But she really didn't know a lot about the subject
of false confession. She was, in a sense, like an
uneducated jewelry member looking at that tape for the first time,
and she was hooked from that point on.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
By the way I only told Steve like two years
ago that I had mistakenly signed up for his class.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Absolutely, it broke my heart.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
No, I mean, what can I say, This is all
totally clean slate for me. I really did know nothing
about criminal law, and what I saw broke everything I
thought I knew about our justice system. And as I
continued to working with Steve over the years, you know,
I mean, there's no there's no better mentor on the
planet than Steve Drisen. He lifts others around him up,
(18:33):
that's what he does. And you know, little by little
as I learned from him, as I absorbed his passion
for justice and his twenty four to seven dedication to
speaking for people without a voice, and I was the
fortunate beneficiary of his mentorship and it's something I'll be
forever grateful for.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
You know, I think it's important to note Laura had
a brilliant legal mind, but for me, it was when
she met Brendan for the first time and there was
a sort of instant connection between the two of them
that sealed the deal.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
For me.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I knew that I needed to keep her on this
case whatever I could do, because that connection, the ability
to relate to a client under these circumstances is so important.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Well, I mean, that's the thing. It's one thing to
watch the videotape, but it's another thing to actually meet
the person whose life you saw being dismantled, and to
hear the stories of suffering and to understand them not
just as a character in a video or a case,
but as a full human with a life and a
family and friends and dreams and hopes and the kinds
(19:41):
of plans that all of us have. When you meet
someone like that and you're the lawyer and it's your
job to help them, you can't walk away from that.
You just can't do it. And I haven't walked away since.
(20:05):
One of the questions people ask us all the time
is how we and others like us have the strength
to continue fighting these injustices day in and day out.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Colleagues in our office, many of them are doing similarly
gut wrenching work, and so when our office is functioning
at its best, there is a lot of support there.
Our office also is often a home and a place
of solace for our clients. So we see some of
(20:36):
our success stories walking around and that helps prop us up.
But it's hard, so for me as a sort of
therapeutic way to rid myself of some of these cases,
but more importantly to educate others, was to do two things.
(20:58):
To write about them and then to speak publicly and
to spread this knowledge around as much as possible. And
that's what I've been doing for the past twenty or
twenty five years, and that's what Lara has been doing
since she's been involved in this work.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, I mean, you know, the work is hard, and
of course it's stressful, but it's the victories that keep
us going. Right, There's no better feeling than watching someone
you personally have believed in and fought for, usually for years.
No better feeling in the world than watching them walk
out of prison.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I can't believe him finally hear this is unbelieved. I mean,
steal shot, leave that you're you finally.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Defended, not guilty of feeling of giving birth, of giving
life back, helping this person rediscover and recapture the life
that's been taken unjustly from them. It's an incredible feeling
and that's what keeps us going. I think the times
we're able to do that, those moments will stick with
(22:06):
you for the rest of your life. False confession stories
are life changing to hear. I mean literally, it was
a story of a false confession that changed the course
of my life, transformed my own personal trajectory. And that's
what I want to do with this podcast. I want
(22:27):
to share these stories because there's no better way to
understand the need to reform the system than to hear
about these injustices and to get fired up to view
this as a call to action.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I've been telling these stories for twenty years and trying
to reach larger and larger audiences. So for me, that's
what this is about. It's another opportunity to try to
prevent someone else from suffering what Brendan Dacy has suffered exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
You know. One of the amazing things is after making
a murder came out, all of a sudden, people around
the globe started caring about the criminal justice system for
the first time, I mean millions of people. We want
to amplify those feelings. We want to keep that energy
flowing because it's already starting to result in important reforms
around the United States and around the globe. We got
(23:18):
to keep that going. These stories are powerful vehicles for justice,
and that's why we're here telling these stories today. We
can fix this, but we need to fix it together.
The first story we're going to tell in this podcast
is the story of a Virginia man named Robert Davis.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
When I first learned about Robert Davis's case, Lara had
just come back into the fall to Northwestern Law School,
and she was beginning to show signs of being a
rising star in this field. And one of the things
I wanted to do is to not only give her
the Robert Davis tapes, but to let her run with them,
(23:58):
let her analyze this case as an expert.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
A lot of people, I think, watched Making a Murderer
and thought, that's a Manitoac County problem. That's something that
just happened to Brendan, And that's not the case. This
has happened to hundreds of people around the country that
we know of, and surely there are thousands that we
don't know of. And we wanted to start with Robert
Davis because Roberts an everyday ordinary guy right comes from
(24:24):
a stable family and a good home and got caught
up in the same forces of interrogation that Brendan Dancy
did and ended up confessing to an equally serious heinous
crime that he, like Brendan, didn't commit. There's no better
illustration of the point that we all can be broken
by interrogation than Robert Davis's story. So join us next
(24:46):
week and thanks for listening. Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is
the production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with
Signal Company Number One. Thanks to our executive producer Jason
Flamm and the team at Signal Company Number One. Executive
producer Kevin wardis senior producer and Pope, and additional production
(25:09):
and editing by Connor Hall. Our music was composed by
Jay Ralph. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter
at Laura Nyrider, and you can follow me on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
At s Drizzen.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
For more information on the show, visit wrongfulconvictionpodcast dot com
and be sure to follow the show on Instagram at
Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on
Twitter at wrong Conviction
Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I writer,
and I'm Steve Drusen. Steve and I co direct the
Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University in Chicago. It's
one of the oldest organizations in the country dedicated to
exonerating innocent people who've been convicted of crimes they didn't commit.
Over its twenty years, the center has freed more than
(00:22):
forty innocent men, women, and children, and it's our privilege
to work there. Some of you may know me and
Steve from the Netflix show Making a Murderer, which exposed
the unjust case against our client, Brendan Dassy, or you
may have heard me on an episode from last seasons
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm, where Brendan told his own
story for the first time. On this podcast series, Steve
(00:47):
and I are going to bring you into our world,
the world of false Confessions. We're going to tell you
about cases we've worked on, innocent people we've fought for,
and our passion for making justice a reality. Today, we'll
(01:11):
start with the big question, why would anyone confess to
a crime they didn't commit? Then we'll take you inside
the interrogation room to show you how false confessions happen,
and finally a little backstory how Steve and I each
became obsessed with the problem of false confessions and how
we're not going to quit until this problem gets solved.
(01:35):
Most people assume that when someone confesses, it's because they're
guilty and because they have some sort of inner need
to unburden themselves of their guilt and the story that
they're clinging on too. But what we have discovered is
that confessions aren't always true. That in fact, we know
of hundreds of cases where someone is brought into an
(01:56):
interrogation room, questioned by the police, sometimes for hours, ends
up confessing to a crime, often a very brutal crime,
a rape or a murder, something like that, and they're
convicted on the basis of that confession, sent away to
prison for years, decades sometimes, and then an organization like
our Center on Wrongful Convictions comes along and does DNA
(02:16):
testing and discovers, beyond the shadow of a doubt that
the confession is false. We know hundreds of cases like this,
and that really gives the lie to this belief that
confessions are always true.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I think people understand that if you were tortured or
you're subjected to the kinds of tactics we saw in
Abu Grabe and Guantanamo that under those kinds of physical, abusive,
extreme sleep deprivation kind of tactics, yeah, you might say
(02:49):
some things, including confessed to some serious crimes you didn't commit.
But most of today's modern psychological interrogation techniques are all
about talking words, and so the job of the lawyer
or the expert is to try to explain the psychology
(03:09):
of interrogations to lay people, to bring them inside the
interrogation room so that they can feel the same pressure
that the suspect is under and maybe come to understand
why they themselves might confess to a crime they didn't commit.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Exactly. Every one of us has a breaking point, and
what you see in these false confession cases is the
power of the interrogation room, which is focused on identifying
that breaking point for the person being interrogated. It's an
incredibly powerful space. It's really good at getting true confessions,
but also really good at getting false confessions.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
The first thing that is essential to any interrogation is isolation.
Depriving a suspect from a lifeline to loved ones, friends' attorneys,
and so police officers take suspects in a room, a
specially designed room. It's usually a very small room. It's
(04:07):
cramped to the extent there is furniture in the room.
It's usually just a couple chairs, maybe a table pushed
to the side, because you don't want the table between
the suspect and an interrogator because it can provide a
sense of comfort for the suspect and it can minimize
the ability of the interrogator to get into the suspect's face.
(04:32):
There's no natural light in these rooms, no clocks, no telephones,
The walls are basically barren, and usually the suspect is
positioned in a corner or in a place where getting
up and leaving requires the suspect to literally go through
(04:53):
the two interrogators who are blocking the pathway to the door.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
These rooms have been around for many, many decades, but
we're only getting a glimpse into them for the first
time recently, as more and more confessions have been proven
false by DNA, states are starting to require video cameras
in interrogation rooms for the first time. Twenty four states
still don't require any kind of real time documentation, but
(05:17):
because of those twenty six states, that now requires some
sort of video camera or audio recording inside the room.
We're getting a look for the first time, and what
we're seeing is chilling.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So once you have this sense of isolation, what that
does is it fosters a dependence. The suspect becomes obliged
to do what the interrogator asks him to do, and
part of that dependence is built during the early part
of an interrogation, which involves some kind of attempt to
(05:50):
build trust between the interrogator and the suspect, something that
suggests that the interrogator is here to help the suspect.
In fact, the interrogator is the only person between the
suspect and perhaps a life sentence or a prosecutor who's
going to charge him or her with the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
When people see what happens inside the interrogation room, they're horrified.
The techniques that are used. Sure, they're psychological, Very few
cops use physical abuse any longer. But these psychological techniques
distort the world so much that suddenly it starts to
make sense that you should confess even if you're innocent,
And to watch that mind game in real time on
(06:38):
these videos is absolutely appalling.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
What I find interesting is that many people we show
these tapes to, they're accepting of the need to use
some of these tactics to get true confessions. But what
they find offensive is the way in which police officers
feed facts to suspects and actually construct a narrative that
(07:06):
isn't really the suspects confession at all. It is the
suspect affirming a preconceived theory of the police that is
shaped and constructed by the police.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
It's almost like like rehearsing a play, you know, like
scripting a story that this person has to rehearse and
get perfect and then perform for the final confession. And
this process, amazingly enough, when we show it to some audiences,
they laugh because, you know, if the goal of all
of this of interrogation our justice system is to fine truth,
(07:40):
this is such a distortion of truth that people laugh
at the absurdity of it.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
And that's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, absolutely heartbreaking, because you're watching these people's lives be
ruined in real time on these videos. All right, I'm
just going to come.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Out and ask you who shot her in the hat
he did? Why didn't you tell us that when an
entrergator says to Brendan Dacy, all right, I'm just going
to come out and tell you who shot her in
the head. It's heartbreaking because there are supposed to be
checks and balances in this process, other police officers looking
(08:17):
at the tape saying you can't do that. He has
to come up with these facts on his own. And
then there are prosecutors who, when reviewing these cases for trials,
should know that this confession is unreliable. And then there
are judges. They should see these confessions and they should say,
I'm not letting this go before a jury. This is
(08:39):
not the suspect's confession. It's constructed by the interrogators. And
then there's the jury who also has an opportunity to
weigh in on this. But time and time and time again,
it's the power of the confession itself that ends up
convicting these people.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Too often, their fate is sealed because the systems check
that should prevent false confessions from resulting in wrongful convictions
don't work. So literally, when you're watching these videos at
the interrogation room, you're watching acts of legal suicide.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
And in the worst cases, you're watching acts of psychological torture.
I mean there is a class of false confessions. They're
called either coerced persuaded, or coerced internalized. But these are
cases where police officers attack a suspect's confidence in their
own memory of events. The suspect knows they're innocent, but
(09:34):
police officers tell them perhaps they committed the crime in
a blackout, or were under the influence of drugs or alcohol,
or maybe that the trauma of killing a loved one
was so painful that they repressed the memory of what
they actually did. All of this crashes the suspect's confidence
(09:55):
in their own memory, and then police officers give them
an explanation or a reason for why they might have
committed the crime and not remembered it. At the end
of the day, some suspects can't tell the difference between
their real memories and their imagined memories, and the imagined
memories have been shaped by the interrogator's questioning exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
There are cases in which suspects are told that they
must have split personalities and the good you doesn't remember
what the bad you did. There have been cases where kids'
children have been falsely told that their loved ones on
their deathbeds accuse their own children of killing them. Then,
of course they believe that their parents would never say
such a thing unless it was true, so they begin
to construct a narrative that accounts for what they think
(10:41):
the parents had happened.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
The cases in which children confess to killing their parents,
parents confessed to killing their children, husbands confessed to killing
their wives, siblings confessed to killing their siblings, these are
these are the hardest ones to whty, just because not
only are these suspects being accused of one of the
(11:06):
worst crimes imaginable in society, not only are they struggling
with trying to remember something that they can't remember, but
they're suffering from incredible grief trauma. Yeah, and trauma. I mean,
when someone close to you is killed, especially if they've
been murdered, and you're being interrogated within hours of discovering
(11:29):
the body, you are so vulnerable to suggestions, so vulnerable
to manipulation.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Desperate for help, desperate for a friend, And that's exactly
what the interrogator wants you to think he is, and
that's exactly, of course, what he's not. I mean, you
are seeing the distortion of a mind in the interrogation room,
the poisoning of a memory, the twisting of a world,
and the creation of a profound injustice. The tactics, they're
(12:08):
basically the same across all of these false confession videos
that we have. You see a suspect being brought into
an interrogation room, confronted with an accusation, and then it's
the job of the interrogators to communicate to them, beyond
the shadow of a doubt, we know you're guilty, and
there's nothing you can say or do to convince us otherwise.
(12:29):
And sometimes it takes hours of relentless accusation to bring
the suspect down to a place of hopelessness. Then it's
the job of the interrogators to offer confession as an out,
as a way to cut your losses somehow and cling
to some shred of hope. So you'll see interrogators say
things like, look, there are two kinds of people in
(12:51):
this world. There's someone who would commit a horrible crime
like this one. Maybe someone who's done this before and
is going to go do it again, right, real monster.
We all know what happens to people like that. They're
never going to see the light of day again. But
then there are other kinds of people in this world,
people just like you or me, regular ordinary, good folks,
(13:12):
just trying to live their life, trying to do the
right thing. People who maybe they just make a bad decision,
a bad choice, they snap in a moment of stress
or frustration. We've all made mistakes. I've made a mistake
in my life, haven't you. And we all know what
happens to good people who just make mistakes. Right, people
(13:33):
want to help them. If you just made a mistake here,
the judge will look at you and want to help you.
The prosecutor will understand you better. You'll have a reason
to hope. So which one is it? Are you the
monster or are you the person who just made a mistake.
That's the choice that the person in the interrogation room has,
(13:55):
and every single one of us will choose to tell
a story of mistake in the hopes that it will
result in help. And of course, when you confess to
that crime you didn't commit in the hopes that everyone
will want to help you, it doesn't help you at all.
It seals your fate.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
In October of two thousand and seven, I got a
phone call on the other end of the line were
several attorneys who I knew and respected, and they said
to me, do you know about the case of Brendan
Dacy And I said, yes, of course I know about
the case. Stephen Avery was the first person exonerated by
(14:37):
DNA evidence in Wisconsin. It was huge news. And then
he got charged with the murder of a photographer named
Teresa Holbach in two thousand and five. And he had
a nephew named Brendan Dassi, a sixteen year old nephew
who had confessed to participating in that crime with his
(14:58):
uncle Stephen, and both of them had been convicted and
sentenced to life. And so I knew the basic background
of the case. They said to me, which you represent
Brendan Dacy on appeal. And this is the kind of
work that I was called to do. It was the
kind of work that I was doing. But I said
(15:20):
to them, send me the interrogation videos. So when the
tapes arrived, I looked at them and I decided I
was going to get involved, but I wanted a gut check.
I wanted someone else to tell me what they saw.
I had worked with one student before on a false
confession case and I assigned her to look at these recordings,
(15:43):
and that student was Laura, and I writer, that's right.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
This is about twelve years ago or so, and my
last year of law school. I decided on a whim
to sign up for your class, Steve, un wrongful Convictions.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Tell the truth? Was it? You didn't I sign up
for my class?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I thought I was signing up for someone else's class
on wrongful convictions. But I ended up in your class.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Thank god.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I decided to stick around because it got interesting real fast.
Right And about a month in Steve, you know, you
called me into your office and you said, I've just
gotten involved in this case out of Wisconsin involving a
sixteen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to
a murder that I don't think he committed. And you
(16:28):
handed me the interrogation videos of Brendon Dacy, the same
videos that like eight years later would go on to
be featured in Making a Murderer. And I watched them
from start to finish, and my heart broke.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We know he did something else to her? What else
did he do with her?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Extremely extremely im poor you tell us this for USh
to believe you? Because I saw two seasoned adult interrogators
questioning a sixteen year old, intellectually limited boy, manipulating him
into confessing to a murder that he couldn't even describe.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Did you see whether a cell phone of hers? Oh?
Do you know whether she had a camera? Oh?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I couldn't shake the feeling of wanting to jump into
the video screen and get myself between Brendan and those
interrogators who were manipulating him into confessing to a crime
he so clearly didn't commit. That was literally a life
changing moment for me. I graduated from law school and
within months I was back at Northwestern working alongside Steve
to build the Center on Wrongful Convictions and to help
(17:32):
represent Brendan and other kids just like him. Ever since, you.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Know, every once in a while you come across a student,
and Laura was a brilliant writer. I mean, let's just
be honest, she was a better writer than I was.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Can I get that in writing again?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
But she really didn't know a lot about the subject
of false confession. She was, in a sense, like an
uneducated jewelry member looking at that tape for the first time,
and she was hooked from that point on.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
By the way I only told Steve like two years
ago that I had mistakenly signed up for his class.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Absolutely, it broke my heart.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
No, I mean, what can I say, This is all
totally clean slate for me. I really did know nothing
about criminal law, and what I saw broke everything I
thought I knew about our justice system. And as I
continued to working with Steve over the years, you know,
I mean, there's no there's no better mentor on the
planet than Steve Drisen. He lifts others around him up,
(18:33):
that's what he does. And you know, little by little
as I learned from him, as I absorbed his passion
for justice and his twenty four to seven dedication to
speaking for people without a voice, and I was the
fortunate beneficiary of his mentorship and it's something I'll be
forever grateful for.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
You know, I think it's important to note Laura had
a brilliant legal mind, but for me, it was when
she met Brendan for the first time and there was
a sort of instant connection between the two of them
that sealed the deal.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
For me.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I knew that I needed to keep her on this
case whatever I could do, because that connection, the ability
to relate to a client under these circumstances is so important.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Well, I mean, that's the thing. It's one thing to
watch the videotape, but it's another thing to actually meet
the person whose life you saw being dismantled, and to
hear the stories of suffering and to understand them not
just as a character in a video or a case,
but as a full human with a life and a
family and friends and dreams and hopes and the kinds
(19:41):
of plans that all of us have. When you meet
someone like that and you're the lawyer and it's your
job to help them, you can't walk away from that.
You just can't do it. And I haven't walked away since.
(20:05):
One of the questions people ask us all the time
is how we and others like us have the strength
to continue fighting these injustices day in and day out.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Colleagues in our office, many of them are doing similarly
gut wrenching work, and so when our office is functioning
at its best, there is a lot of support there.
Our office also is often a home and a place
of solace for our clients. So we see some of
(20:36):
our success stories walking around and that helps prop us up.
But it's hard, so for me as a sort of
therapeutic way to rid myself of some of these cases,
but more importantly to educate others, was to do two things.
(20:58):
To write about them and then to speak publicly and
to spread this knowledge around as much as possible. And
that's what I've been doing for the past twenty or
twenty five years, and that's what Lara has been doing
since she's been involved in this work.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, I mean, you know, the work is hard, and
of course it's stressful, but it's the victories that keep
us going. Right, There's no better feeling than watching someone
you personally have believed in and fought for, usually for years.
No better feeling in the world than watching them walk
out of prison.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I can't believe him finally hear this is unbelieved. I mean,
steal shot, leave that you're you finally.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Defended, not guilty of feeling of giving birth, of giving
life back, helping this person rediscover and recapture the life
that's been taken unjustly from them. It's an incredible feeling
and that's what keeps us going. I think the times
we're able to do that, those moments will stick with
(22:06):
you for the rest of your life. False confession stories
are life changing to hear. I mean literally, it was
a story of a false confession that changed the course
of my life, transformed my own personal trajectory. And that's
what I want to do with this podcast. I want
(22:27):
to share these stories because there's no better way to
understand the need to reform the system than to hear
about these injustices and to get fired up to view
this as a call to action.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I've been telling these stories for twenty years and trying
to reach larger and larger audiences. So for me, that's
what this is about. It's another opportunity to try to
prevent someone else from suffering what Brendan Dacy has suffered exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
You know. One of the amazing things is after making
a murder came out, all of a sudden, people around
the globe started caring about the criminal justice system for
the first time, I mean millions of people. We want
to amplify those feelings. We want to keep that energy
flowing because it's already starting to result in important reforms
around the United States and around the globe. We got
(23:18):
to keep that going. These stories are powerful vehicles for justice,
and that's why we're here telling these stories today. We
can fix this, but we need to fix it together.
The first story we're going to tell in this podcast
is the story of a Virginia man named Robert Davis.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
When I first learned about Robert Davis's case, Lara had
just come back into the fall to Northwestern Law School,
and she was beginning to show signs of being a
rising star in this field. And one of the things
I wanted to do is to not only give her
the Robert Davis tapes, but to let her run with them,
(23:58):
let her analyze this case as an expert.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
A lot of people, I think, watched Making a Murderer
and thought, that's a Manitoac County problem. That's something that
just happened to Brendan, And that's not the case. This
has happened to hundreds of people around the country that
we know of, and surely there are thousands that we
don't know of. And we wanted to start with Robert
Davis because Roberts an everyday ordinary guy right comes from
(24:24):
a stable family and a good home and got caught
up in the same forces of interrogation that Brendan Dancy
did and ended up confessing to an equally serious heinous
crime that he, like Brendan, didn't commit. There's no better
illustration of the point that we all can be broken
by interrogation than Robert Davis's story. So join us next
(24:46):
week and thanks for listening. Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is
the production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with
Signal Company Number One. Thanks to our executive producer Jason
Flamm and the team at Signal Company Number One. Executive
producer Kevin wardis senior producer and Pope, and additional production
(25:09):
and editing by Connor Hall. Our music was composed by
Jay Ralph. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter
at Laura Nyrider, and you can follow me on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
At s Drizzen.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
For more information on the show, visit wrongfulconvictionpodcast dot com
and be sure to follow the show on Instagram at
Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on
Twitter at wrong Conviction
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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