December 5, 2022 • 34 mins
In the summer of 1987, Joyce Watkins received a call from her sister asking for help caring for their 4 year old great niece who lived in Georgia. Joyce agreed to come pick up the little girl and bring her to her home in Nashville, TN. Joyce noticed almost immediately that the girl was acting strangely and suffering from abnormal vaginal bleeding.
Joyce took her to the hospital and learned that the little girl suffered from a vaginal injury and bleeding on the brain. She received emergency care but died the next day.
After an investigation that relied on an erroneous autopsy report and little else, Joyce was charged with the sexual abuse and death of the child. She was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.
Kemba Smith spent 6.5 years of a 24.5 year sentence in federal prison for her boyfriend’s criminal activity, until President Bill Clinton granted her clemency. Now, Kemba is a public speaker, writer, and educator on a variety of criminal justice issues, including mandatory drug sentencing, women and incarceration, and re-entry.
When Kemba read about Joyce’s story, she was reminded of her own, and knew they had to meet. Kemba was taken aback by what a model citizen Joyce was and the horrific injustice that befell her – an entirely innocent woman. Through this interview, Kemba has gained strength from witnessing Joyce’s resilience, and she is motivated to continue to highlight the need for justice.
To learn more and get involved, visit:
https://www.tninnocence.org/watkins-dunn-exonerated
Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jason Flomm. Since I began recording Wrongful Conviction back
in two thousand sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of exonorees, and
unfortunately that's just the tip of the criminal injustice iceberg.
So I've invited new voices to host the show, including
people who have personally experienced the horror of that system.
This is one of those interviews. In the summer of
(00:23):
n Joyce Watkins lived a good life in Nashville, Tennessee.
She worked a full time job, went to church every Sunday,
spent time with her boyfriend Charlie Dunn, and was preparing
to adopt a child. She had a large extended family,
including a four year old great niece who lived in Georgia.
(00:43):
That summer, the little girl was staying with other family
members in Kentucky, but things were not going well. Joyce
got a call from her sister, who was watching the child,
asking if Joyce could come and pick her up. Busy
with her own life, Joyce told her sister she couldn't
care for the child. Over the span of a week,
(01:04):
Joyce's sister called several more times, each call more frantic
than the last. Finally, Joyce agreed to come pick up
the little girl and take her back to Nashville. Joyce
and Charlie took her home, noticing almost immediately that she
was acting strangely and suffering from abnormal vaginal bleeding. At
(01:27):
the hospital, it was clear that the little girl didn't
only have a vaginal injury, but was bleeding in her brain.
She received emergency care and was placed on life support.
The next day, the four year old died. In an
investigation that relied on an erroneous autopsy report and little else.
(01:49):
Both Joyce and Charlie were charged with the sexual abuse
and death of the child. They were convicted and sentenced
to life in prison. This it's wrongful conviction. My name
(02:12):
is Kimba Smith. I'm a mother, wife, author, and criminal
justice advocate. For me, the work of advocating for prison
and sentencing reform is personal. When I was a student
in college, I was caught up in a physical, abusive
relationship with the drug dealer. He was killed and I
was held responsible for his drug crimes at the height
(02:35):
of the War on drugs. I was sentenced to twenty
four and a half years in prison when I was
just twenty three years old. Myself. Thankfully I didn't have
to serve my full sentence. My case caught the attention
of the n double a CP Legal Defense Fund and
many other organizations, as well as the host of this show,
Jason Flong. They fought for me and I was granted
(02:57):
executive clemency by President Clinton. My guest today is a
woman who inspires me with not only her story, but
her incredible resilience and faith, Miss Joyce Watkins and her attorney,
Mr Jason Gischner. Okay, my name is Joyce Watkins and
(03:18):
I'm seven to four years old, seven to five years old,
live in Franklin County. Thanks are going real well for
me now, I don't have any complaints. Hey, I'm Jason Gishner.
I'm the senior legal counsel of the Tennessee Innocence Project.
In our office had the great honor of representing Joyce
in court on her case. Well, thank you so very much.
(03:39):
And Miss Joyce, you have such a sweet spirit and
no one could look at you and anticipate that you
have this journey. And I wanted to know more about
what your life was like before all of this happened. Uh.
I worked on a tai factory, a bee a cortis.
(03:59):
I was working, doing good, ready to adopt a kid,
give some key a nice hunk to live in, you know,
and basically just work, church, sports a little football, travel
a lot my family. So I was just a quiet,
laid back person. Jason, This is where I would like
(04:23):
to transition to you. How does a woman like miss
Watkins go from being a law abouty centers, churchgoing woman,
hard working to being sentenced to life in prison. Unfortunately,
Joyce's story is consistent with what we see in a
lot of wrongful convictions. You know, this was really a
perfect storm of things that went wrong to make this happen. Um,
(04:48):
you know, Joyce and Charlie. Charlie Dunn was Joyce's co
defendant who was her boyfriend at the time, and the
two of them were both arrested in for a rape
and murder that they didn't commit. And um, neither one
of them have ever been of trouble for anything in
their life. Joyce is uh in Madison and she starts
(05:08):
to get phone calls from a family member that's in
Kentucky who's taking care of her great niece who's a
four year old girl. And she's asking Joyce, can you
come pick the little girl up? Well, Joyce has a
full time job. As she told you, she was at
the process of adopting a child, but didn't have any
children of her own at that point, so she doesn't
have daycare. She doesn't have anybody who can watch a
(05:30):
child during the day, so she's not able to pick
her great niece up. So Joyce says, there's nothing I
can do about it. But then there's a week that
comes along and the calls start to get more and
more frantic, and Joyce realizes that something is wrong um
or at least concerning. I should go pick the little
girl up and find out what's the situation here. So
(05:51):
on a Friday evening, Joyce had gotten out of work
that day, she drives out to Kentucky to pick the
little girl up. Charlie gets caught up in this whole
thing for no other reason than because he didn't want
his girlfriend have to drive in the dark, so he
drives along with Joyce to go pick her up. In Kentucky.
They picked the little girl up, they head back to Nashville,
and pretty quickly when they arrive in Nashville, Joyce realizes
(06:15):
something is wrong. She notices that the little girl has
some vaginal bleeding and she's just not acting right. So
Joyce does what anybody would do. At this point, it's
the middle of the night. By the time they get
back to Nashville, it's after midnight. Joyce calls up the
little girl's mom in Georgia. Um, she had been staying
with this family member in Kentucky. This was nothing out
(06:38):
of the ordinary, sort of something that this family did.
You know, nieces and nephews would go stay for periods
of time with family members. So Joyce calls up the
family member, the child's mother, who is Joyce's niece also
because this was her great niece, and says, hey, something's
wrong with your daughter. I'm noticing these medical issues. What
should I do about it? So mom says, don't do
(07:00):
anything about it. I'm gonna come to Nashville and we'll
get this sorted out. So everybody goes to bed, and
then they wake up the next morning and the person
hasn't arrived from Georgia yet, and Joyce realizes that the
situation has gotten worse. The little girl still bleeding and
she's not acting right. Something's just off. So Joyce says,
(07:22):
I can't wait anymore. I'm going to bring her to
get some medical care. So Joyce takes her to the hospital,
which is, you know, what you'd want somebody to do
in that situation. Unfortunately, by the time they get to
the hospital, the situation is deteriorating and the little girl
is crashing and they realize that not only does she
have a vaginal injury, but she's got a subdural hematoma,
(07:44):
she's got a head injury, and her you know, her
brain is bleeding and that becomes the urgent issue that
they do everything they can to try and figure out
why she has this um this hemorrhaging in her brain
and if they can do anything about it, and tragically,
the little girl eyes the next day. Basically, you have
this you know, two month period where Bbe was at
(08:07):
a relative's house and then with her and Mr Dunne
with them for nine hours, and they chose to focus
in on those nine hours when there was documentation that
there was stuff that had been going on previously as well.
So can you give us some more background information to
this case. So initially what happens is that everybody is
(08:28):
focused on what was going on in Kentucky. This little
girl was with Joyce and Charlie for nine hours, and
the majority of that time she was sleeping, and part
of that time she was driving from Kentucky to Nashville.
Nobody really thinks anything strange happened in Nashville. After all,
Joyce is the person that brought this child into medical
care and called her mother as soon as she knew
(08:49):
something was wrong. So nobody's even looking at these people,
you know, they're they're sort of focusing on what was
going on in Kentucky, and there had been some strange
circumstances there. Uh there there had been an investigation from
the Family Services department out there. But then things change
after the autopsy is conducted. Um, there's an autopsy that
(09:09):
is conducted by the assistant medical examiner in Nashville who
tells the prosecutor that I know from looking at the
brain slides in this autopsy that the head trauma to
this little girl had to have happened within this window
of time that she was with Joyce and Charlie. And
the reason she says she knows that is because there
(09:30):
was a particular type of cell that she was looking for,
a healing cell. Which is called a HISTEO site, and
she says, because I didn't see this cell in the
brain slide that tells me the window of time when
this head injury could have happened was when this nine
hour window when the little girl was with Joyce and
Charlie ms Joyce. I wanted to ask you because I mean,
(09:54):
you know, I'm formally incarcerated and actually you know, turned
my self and but just this was such a nightmare
for you, and to know that you were preparing to
adopt a child and to be faced with these accusations.
How did you feel when you were actually arrested and
(10:16):
going through this this process knowing that you were innocent. Well,
I got medical TechEd for her because I thought that
was the right thing to do. So when I got
accused of that, you know, I knew it wasn't true.
So it wasn't a time to start stressing over something
(10:39):
that you didn't do. Uh, you try to find ways
to prove that you didn't do it. You just have
to be positive thinking about everything and not just fall apart.
So I didn't give up, you know, uh, point fingers
of saying that a thing lying on people, I just
(10:59):
just didn't stress all that and it was very hot.
It sell. So, Jason, if you don't mind going into
initially with trial, what was miss watkins defense what was
presented by her attorney. I mean the defense was essentially,
these people didn't do it. You know, they were interviewed,
they said they didn't do it, and there was you know,
(11:19):
nothing about them or their character that should make anyone
believe that they did it, which which was we're all
appropriate things to say. The problem is that the jury
was confronted with a medical opinion from an expert on
a subject that they don't know anything about, that none
of us would know anything about if we weren't you know,
didn't go to medical school ourselves, and nobody told them
(11:43):
that opinion was wrong. The big revelation that doesn't come
out until years later is that the type of cell
that the medical examiner was looking for in these brain
slides is not a cell that ever goes to that
part of the brain. That's not a thing. It doesn't
ever happen. Trying to date this injury by looking for
this cell is an impossibility. And the other thing that
(12:06):
the medical examiner failed to take into account, which didn't
come out until when we started having these exoneration hearings.
Was that the cells that were evident in the vaginal
slides were cells called macrophages that showed that this is
an injury that had happened in the days prior, well
before this child was ever with Joyce or Charlie. So
(12:28):
there was no medical evidence whatsoever connecting the head injury
to this nine hour window. And there was definitive medical
evidence that whatever happened in terms of any type of
vaginal injury happened well before the child was with these
two people. And you know, if you put yourself in
a jury shoes in that situation, what are you gonna do.
(12:49):
I have a lot of blame that I throw around
in this case, but it's not really at the jury
because I don't know what the jury could have done otherwise,
because nobody gave them the information they needed to hear.
If they hear from a doctor saying I know these
people did it and medically this is why, and that's
not contested, then they're stuck. And that's that's effectively what happened.
(13:09):
And the other interesting thing that happened during the trial,
which you know Joyce can talk about if you'd like
her to is that the prosecution tried to offer Joyce
a deal in the middle of the trial. You know,
they offered her, effectively a one year sentence to flip
on Charlie, to say that he raped and murdered this
little girl. And and Joyce flat out turned them down
(13:30):
in the middle of the trial and walked right back
in the courtroom and you know, and waited for the
jury to give her a life sentence. And and Charlie's
family never knew that. They learned about that at the
exoneration hearing in December of one. So you know, these
kids grew up thinking that their dad was a murderer
and and thinking that that he had gotten brought into
(13:52):
this thing because he had gone along for a ride
with Joyce. And they never knew that. You know, Joyce
effectively took a life sentence because she was unwilling to
lie on Charlie and say he did something he didn't do. Joyce.
So wow, that Ms Joyce. That is can you share
more with us about that if you don't mind, I mean,
(14:14):
because that is definitely again commendable in this day and age.
If you know, a young person goes through the system
and it's bought with that type of opportunity to free themselves.
You know, it's in the culture just to you know,
take that. But I know you knew your innocence. Can
(14:35):
you explain to us that process and what you were thinking.
I just didn't feel like I need to lie and
send that man to prison for something that I know
he didn't do. So you know, when I was off
of the year to say that he did it, I'd say, well,
I'm not gonna do that, and I went back in
the courtroom. You know, you don't do things just save yourself,
(14:59):
but you're heard that person and you're hurting their feminine
So I just thought I did the right thing by
not just lying on the man because he hadn't done anything.
It's just interesting how the government well create opportunities like that.
You know, with my situation, I was pregnant and they
(15:21):
fed me information that they wanted me to say and
thought that I would say what they wanted to say
in order to save myself. And what baffles me with
your situation again is you know they were targeting you,
then they wanted you to cooperate to flip on Mr Dunn,
And it just seems evident throughout this that they weren't
(15:43):
even interested in finding out and getting justice for the victim.
How do you feel about that? As far as whoever
the prosecutor was, whoever those parties, they were just wanting
to get a conviction by any means necessary, you know,
instead of doing their jobs and trying to seek and
(16:05):
find justice, using you guys escapegoats because they needed and
arrest and to block somebody up. How do you feel
about that? It was wrong what they did. You don't
hate anybody for anything, but you know that what they
did was wrong, and there were things that they could
have done and should have done to find not the truth.
(16:27):
But since they had focused on us, that is all
they wanted. They just wanted to conviction to close the case.
They didn't care if you did it or not. They
didn't care if they had the right person the wrong person.
They just wanted to conviction, and that's what they thought
they was gonna get. But I just wasn't going on
fall into that trap. As you speak about, you know,
(17:01):
the conviction. Once both sides finished speaking and the guilty
verdict was handing handed down, what what were your thoughts
at that moment? Oh, I was let down. I was
hot broken over it, you know, because I knew I
wasn't gonna get a chance to spend much more time
(17:21):
with my family, and it just was a hurting situation.
But as the years went through, you know, my family
tried to get me out, but then my faminous, my
civilings thought passing away. So I lost four brothers that
are sister you know, seven eight actes and office and stuff.
But I didn't give up. I just kept hoping and
(17:45):
praying and trusted. But it was a hurting situation. But
you know, like I said, I don't flip or get
stressed over something because that doesn't help. That doesn't help
solving problem anyway. Your resilience, Miss Joyce, I mean you
tap in with the ancestors and all of what our
(18:07):
ancestors went through to be where we are today, that
resilience just oozes out of you. Because your positivity through
all of this is remarkable and I don't see how
you have such peace. But if you could, can you
tell us about the parole process and when were you
(18:29):
eligible for parole? Let me just start there after after
how much time were you actually eligible to go up
for parole? What the law said I was to do
seventy point five under the old law, but I did
the twenty seven years. But I had went up for
parole two or three times and they turned me down.
(18:53):
So at the Charlie Pass, I made parole. The little girl, mother,
my nieces and my sister. They came to the parole
board and told him she don't know what happened. You
just need a lot of goal. You know, she don't know.
They don't. She don't They don't know what happened. So
I my parole. But being a parole wasn't a nice
(19:15):
thing to be, not a typnescy. I'm Kimba for what
it's worth. I'm shocked and have always been shocked that
that they paroled Joyce at all. I mean, as you know,
most of the time, if you're gonna get paroles, you've
got to go in there and say, yeah, I did it,
I'm sorry, and let me prove to you that I'm sorry.
Joyce every time she's ever been asked about this by anybody,
(19:36):
said I didn't do this. You've got somebody in prison
who's innocent. You know, a lot of times, unfortunately, people
who are wrongfully convicted who maintained their innocence. Uh, don't
parole out because they're never going to be in a
position where they admitted that they committed a crime and
that they're sorry they committed a crime because they didn't
commit a crime. Right, And that is an excellent point.
(19:57):
And you're right, that is what they expect you to say,
that you did it and that you thrushed your remorse.
And so it was meant to be to happen that way.
But how did it feel, Joyce walking out of prison
and what were some of the conditions of parole once
you were released. I had certain places I could go,
(20:18):
such streets so I could go on, you know, certain people,
so I could talk to They were coming to your
house when they got ready, teared up whatever hold on,
Miss Joyce. You said they would. They would come in
your house and tear it up. They would go through
everything you had, everything if fory pieza everything, Joyce explained
(20:41):
to Kimba. Because you weren't just on parole because of
the rape conviction. You were also on the sex offender
Registry for life. So so that's like parole times a thousand.
Sure is I had certain streets I could go to,
certain people's I could talk to sucha places I could
all I had to be at home six o'clock. I
(21:04):
had to get permission to go to church. Such stuff
I could have in the house. No Internet, they would
check my cell phone. Couldn't live within a thousand feet
of a school or a daycare facility, not not even close.
Not even close to a school or daycare. I couldn't
(21:25):
pass by during school hours. If kids was walking the
streets I had and I was on the post, I
had to go into a leave. And again it speaks
to your your perspective and resilience through it, because I
know there are some people that are on saxofriend or
registries where that could be quite challenging and depending on
(21:49):
you know, who's supervising them, it could be the least
little thing and they could be back, you know, in prison.
So I appreciate you sharing what that was like. Jason,
can you tell the audience how the Innocence Project of
Tennessee Nashville became involved in Miss Joyce's case. So most
(22:12):
people they either write us letters from prison, or their
families reach out to us, or sometimes their former lawyers
reach out to us. Joyce paroled in two thousand and fifteen,
and our organization started in Tennessee in two thousand and nineteen,
and Joyce just showed up. She we don't we don't
get a lot of walkins over at the Tennessee Innocence Project,
(22:36):
but Joyce walked in and and basically said, all right,
I was wrongfully convicted. I'm still on the sex offender
registry for a rape that I didn't commit. Uh, you'all
need to hear my story and you'll need to help.
And you know you've probably figured out by now that
you know Joyce is a force of nature and and
there there there was no saying no to Joyce when
(22:59):
she did this. So she she came in, she told
the story to everybody, and then, you know, Joyce and
I eventually started working together. And you know, when I
first met with Joyce, uh, there was another person in
the office with me who was working here, and she
kind of laid it all out and then I kicked
that person out and I closed the door. I said,
(23:20):
all right, Joyce, like, here's the deal. If we're gonna
do this, you need to tell me your story, like legit.
I need to believe you. I want to know the
real deal, and she didn't hesitate. She's like, I did
not do this. I am one innocent y'all need to
figure out how you're gonna fix it. But I did
not do this. And you know, part of me at
(23:41):
the time was also like, well, look, I get that.
Maybe you're saying you didn't do it, but what about
what about Charlie? Now Charlie has passed away at this point,
you know she can she can say whatever she wants
about Charlie. Nobody's ever gonna know, and it's just me
and her sitting in my office. But she is exactly
the same in that situation as she is when you
interview her in a Poe caster you put her on TV.
(24:01):
Charlie did not do this. That man is innocent, and
you can't just get me exonerated. You need to exonerate
him too, because he doesn't deserve this. His family doesn't
deserve this. And you know we're a two for one package.
If you're going to take this case, you're taking both
of us. Wow. That is yes. I can see her
now that I've talked to her more. I can see
(24:23):
her coming into your office and saying and doing just
those things. And I know you briefly touched it. But
what stuck out the most as you are doing this
post conviction work that ultimately lead to Miss Joyce's innocence. So,
I mean, at the heart of it, like we talked
about before, this is a medical case right there. There
are all of these other things in the mix. But
(24:46):
we knew that if if we were going to get
these people exonerated in their names cleared, we were going
to have to medically make everybody understand that they didn't
commit this crime. So we had these phenomenal experts, so
we were able to really establish that the medicine and
the science and the case was wrong, and it was
it had always been wrong, and we and everything we
(25:09):
know now you know over the last three decades was
more evidence that it was wrong. So we had that.
The other thing that we had going for us, which
was huge in this case, is that there's a conviction
review Unit that exists within the Nashville Davidson County District
Attorney's Office, and they take these cases seriously. You know.
They they conducted their own independent investigation when we brought
(25:33):
them this case, and and they went out and talked
to their own people and and confirmed that Joyce and
Charlie were innocent, and after we were able to collaborate
on this case with their office, we jointly went back
to court together and asked the judge to dismiss these
charges and exonerate these people. And and Glenn Funk, who's
(25:53):
the district attorney and Nashville, was at the court date
and stood up in the courtroom and apologized to Joyce
and Charlie's family and told them, you know that they're
innocent and this never should have happened. And on behalf
of the District Attorney's office, he's sorry what happened to them.
And uh, and that was big, right, because that was
that was really the first time that anybody that had
(26:15):
anything to do with the state stood up and acknowledged
what happened and told Joyce that they were sorry for
what happened. Can you explain when the judge did say
that her case was dismissed what that feeling was like
for you, having walked this journey with her, and then
miss Joyce, I would like to hear your response as well.
It was a lot, I mean, it was it was
(26:36):
a pretty moving, emotional day. And I'm not I'm not
really an emotional kind of guy, but it was hard
to keep it together that day. I mean, Joyce was there,
her family was there, Charlie's whole family was there, My
whole family was there. The Tennessee Innocence Project was there.
I mean it was a packed house and it was
I mean heartbreaking how we got there. But that day
(26:56):
was a celebration and that day, I mean, that day
was wonderful, Miss joy But I was desonerated, you know,
and she said, you've been exonerated. I said, thank you Jesus.
It was just it was just a happy, happy day.
And I said, right then, I said, you know, one
(27:16):
of my niece, she said, I'll tek what you're gonna do.
That first thing I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to
the cemetery and visit my mother and my sisters and brothers. Filermals.
So I got a chance to do that. You know.
It was like, I mean, you just don't know how
happy I was. You know, I think that's the happiest
I ever been in my life. You know, even if
(27:38):
I got on million dollars, I wouldn't been not happy,
you know, just because to me, I want to say, well,
it's money. But you know that was one happy day.
And when the charges with dropped, oh, I can't even
explain that because I know I didn't have to live
under nobody else's rules, like the jury just say you
(28:00):
have the answer to anybody. So I just had her
hand tod, you know, like to listen that nobody. My
first place I went to was my sister's house. I
usually have to call and say, well, I'm going to Nashville.
I ain't had to call nobody. I just got my
keys and my person. I told my namebor. Next though,
she said, it's trustful you going. I said, I fixed
the go to maps, got in the car and let
(28:23):
She said, okay. You know when I came back, she said,
how are you show what happened? I said, I have
to answer nobody, just just the happy thing to do.
(28:52):
Just your patience and faith and will to know that
things were going to change. And you know, twenty seven
years is not you know, twenty seven months. Like you
held on to that faith and resilience for twenty seven
years and there's no ill, angry feelings in your heart.
(29:19):
And I think that is what is just simply amazing.
You want to comment, you know, I getting angry doesn't happen.
They're don't at least all strokes, heart attacks, commitsion, losing
your mind, you know, want to commit suicide. Uh, I'm
(29:40):
not angry. I don't have any anger in me. I
mean I tried to get angry, but it didn't work.
So I said, well, I said, well, you know, I
just need to stay like I am. I haven't known
anger in me. I don't hate anybody for what happened.
I just don't have any anger. I mean, I think
Joyce is really the perfect example to be talking about
(30:01):
these cases. I mean, one because of all the things
you're seeing, right her grace and her forgiveness and and
the stuff that sort of shines out from her, but
also because she's just so innocent, right, I mean when
you dig into her case, I mean, she's just innocent
every way you possibly look at this, and it highlights
the tragedy of these cases and the reality of these
(30:25):
cases that this actually happens to people like Joyce. You know,
good people who have never been in trouble, who are
doing everything right, who are productive citizens. And if it
can happen to Joyce, it can happen to anybody. And
and the fact that one that it it happened to
someone like her, and the strength and perseverance that has
gotten her through it, and the grace that she's able
(30:46):
to talk about it now. Uh, it's just so inspiring,
um sure to the those of us that do this work,
but it's enlightening for anybody who gets to hear her story,
which is why it's so important that that she tells
her story and that she's gracious enough to continue to
tell her story, because unfortunately, there's lots of other choices
(31:08):
that are locked up right now for stuff that they
didn't do, and it's it's impossible to navigate these cases
on your own from behind bars without help. And unless
people recognize that the problem exists and and work with
the organizations and help the people out there that are
trying to work on these cases, other people like Joyce
(31:29):
don't get represented, and these stories don't get told, and
these people don't get their freedom. Miss Joyce, you know,
I wish you nothing but um success as you move on,
and you know, I pray that your your story continues
to be uplifted so it can help bring some light
to the injustice that happens in our system. I help,
it help, and I hope it do some good into
(31:52):
Justice Center, and I hope they look at paces a
little bit closer than what they're doing, so this never
happened to someone else, just because you know, you don't
present all the evidence. I just wish they would do
the right thing about everything, because they're not accomplished nothing
by sending them some people to prison. What's the final
take that you have for our audience today from your
(32:16):
experience and what you've shared to never give up, Never
give up. You know there are organizations somebody out there
will help you, but you can't give up and expect
to achieve your freedom. You just can't give up. You
just have to keep going and going until you get
(32:37):
to the right person. And that's what I did until
I got to the right person. But don't give up.
Whatever you do, don't give up. Thank you for listening
to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host, kimber Smith. I'd
(32:59):
like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Warts.
The senior producer for the episode is Jackie Polly, and
our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburne. Our editor
is Alexandra Guidi. The music in this production is three
time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
(33:21):
us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful
Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well
as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you
can find me on Instagram at Kembas Smith and read
more about my story and my memoir poster child. Wrongful
(33:42):
Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
association with Signal Company Number one. Next week, on the
guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction, Lura and I Writer
will be back with an absolutely insane false confession story.
(34:05):
She's going to speak with Vincent Ellerbee, who served almost
twenty five years in prison after he was falsely identified
in a deadly arson attack on a subway token booth,
an event that captivated New York City. Vincent was only
recently exonerated, totally innocent, and this emotional interview is the
first time he's sharing his story publicly anywhere. Listen next Monday.
(34:28):
This is a must listen episode. Listen next Monday in
the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed
I'm Jason Flomm. Since I began recording Wrongful Conviction back
in two thousand sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of exonorees, and
unfortunately that's just the tip of the criminal injustice iceberg.
So I've invited new voices to host the show, including
people who have personally experienced the horror of that system.
This is one of those interviews. In the summer of
(00:23):
n Joyce Watkins lived a good life in Nashville, Tennessee.
She worked a full time job, went to church every Sunday,
spent time with her boyfriend Charlie Dunn, and was preparing
to adopt a child. She had a large extended family,
including a four year old great niece who lived in Georgia.
(00:43):
That summer, the little girl was staying with other family
members in Kentucky, but things were not going well. Joyce
got a call from her sister, who was watching the child,
asking if Joyce could come and pick her up. Busy
with her own life, Joyce told her sister she couldn't
care for the child. Over the span of a week,
(01:04):
Joyce's sister called several more times, each call more frantic
than the last. Finally, Joyce agreed to come pick up
the little girl and take her back to Nashville. Joyce
and Charlie took her home, noticing almost immediately that she
was acting strangely and suffering from abnormal vaginal bleeding. At
(01:27):
the hospital, it was clear that the little girl didn't
only have a vaginal injury, but was bleeding in her brain.
She received emergency care and was placed on life support.
The next day, the four year old died. In an
investigation that relied on an erroneous autopsy report and little else.
(01:49):
Both Joyce and Charlie were charged with the sexual abuse
and death of the child. They were convicted and sentenced
to life in prison. This it's wrongful conviction. My name
(02:12):
is Kimba Smith. I'm a mother, wife, author, and criminal
justice advocate. For me, the work of advocating for prison
and sentencing reform is personal. When I was a student
in college, I was caught up in a physical, abusive
relationship with the drug dealer. He was killed and I
was held responsible for his drug crimes at the height
(02:35):
of the War on drugs. I was sentenced to twenty
four and a half years in prison when I was
just twenty three years old. Myself. Thankfully I didn't have
to serve my full sentence. My case caught the attention
of the n double a CP Legal Defense Fund and
many other organizations, as well as the host of this show,
Jason Flong. They fought for me and I was granted
(02:57):
executive clemency by President Clinton. My guest today is a
woman who inspires me with not only her story, but
her incredible resilience and faith, Miss Joyce Watkins and her attorney,
Mr Jason Gischner. Okay, my name is Joyce Watkins and
(03:18):
I'm seven to four years old, seven to five years old,
live in Franklin County. Thanks are going real well for
me now, I don't have any complaints. Hey, I'm Jason Gishner.
I'm the senior legal counsel of the Tennessee Innocence Project.
In our office had the great honor of representing Joyce
in court on her case. Well, thank you so very much.
(03:39):
And Miss Joyce, you have such a sweet spirit and
no one could look at you and anticipate that you
have this journey. And I wanted to know more about
what your life was like before all of this happened. Uh.
I worked on a tai factory, a bee a cortis.
(03:59):
I was working, doing good, ready to adopt a kid,
give some key a nice hunk to live in, you know,
and basically just work, church, sports a little football, travel
a lot my family. So I was just a quiet,
laid back person. Jason, This is where I would like
(04:23):
to transition to you. How does a woman like miss
Watkins go from being a law abouty centers, churchgoing woman,
hard working to being sentenced to life in prison. Unfortunately,
Joyce's story is consistent with what we see in a
lot of wrongful convictions. You know, this was really a
perfect storm of things that went wrong to make this happen. Um,
(04:48):
you know, Joyce and Charlie. Charlie Dunn was Joyce's co
defendant who was her boyfriend at the time, and the
two of them were both arrested in for a rape
and murder that they didn't commit. And um, neither one
of them have ever been of trouble for anything in
their life. Joyce is uh in Madison and she starts
(05:08):
to get phone calls from a family member that's in
Kentucky who's taking care of her great niece who's a
four year old girl. And she's asking Joyce, can you
come pick the little girl up? Well, Joyce has a
full time job. As she told you, she was at
the process of adopting a child, but didn't have any
children of her own at that point, so she doesn't
have daycare. She doesn't have anybody who can watch a
(05:30):
child during the day, so she's not able to pick
her great niece up. So Joyce says, there's nothing I
can do about it. But then there's a week that
comes along and the calls start to get more and
more frantic, and Joyce realizes that something is wrong um
or at least concerning. I should go pick the little
girl up and find out what's the situation here. So
(05:51):
on a Friday evening, Joyce had gotten out of work
that day, she drives out to Kentucky to pick the
little girl up. Charlie gets caught up in this whole
thing for no other reason than because he didn't want
his girlfriend have to drive in the dark, so he
drives along with Joyce to go pick her up. In Kentucky.
They picked the little girl up, they head back to Nashville,
and pretty quickly when they arrive in Nashville, Joyce realizes
(06:15):
something is wrong. She notices that the little girl has
some vaginal bleeding and she's just not acting right. So
Joyce does what anybody would do. At this point, it's
the middle of the night. By the time they get
back to Nashville, it's after midnight. Joyce calls up the
little girl's mom in Georgia. Um, she had been staying
with this family member in Kentucky. This was nothing out
(06:38):
of the ordinary, sort of something that this family did.
You know, nieces and nephews would go stay for periods
of time with family members. So Joyce calls up the
family member, the child's mother, who is Joyce's niece also
because this was her great niece, and says, hey, something's
wrong with your daughter. I'm noticing these medical issues. What
should I do about it? So mom says, don't do
(07:00):
anything about it. I'm gonna come to Nashville and we'll
get this sorted out. So everybody goes to bed, and
then they wake up the next morning and the person
hasn't arrived from Georgia yet, and Joyce realizes that the
situation has gotten worse. The little girl still bleeding and
she's not acting right. Something's just off. So Joyce says,
(07:22):
I can't wait anymore. I'm going to bring her to
get some medical care. So Joyce takes her to the hospital,
which is, you know, what you'd want somebody to do
in that situation. Unfortunately, by the time they get to
the hospital, the situation is deteriorating and the little girl
is crashing and they realize that not only does she
have a vaginal injury, but she's got a subdural hematoma,
(07:44):
she's got a head injury, and her you know, her
brain is bleeding and that becomes the urgent issue that
they do everything they can to try and figure out
why she has this um this hemorrhaging in her brain
and if they can do anything about it, and tragically,
the little girl eyes the next day. Basically, you have
this you know, two month period where Bbe was at
(08:07):
a relative's house and then with her and Mr Dunne
with them for nine hours, and they chose to focus
in on those nine hours when there was documentation that
there was stuff that had been going on previously as well.
So can you give us some more background information to
this case. So initially what happens is that everybody is
(08:28):
focused on what was going on in Kentucky. This little
girl was with Joyce and Charlie for nine hours, and
the majority of that time she was sleeping, and part
of that time she was driving from Kentucky to Nashville.
Nobody really thinks anything strange happened in Nashville. After all,
Joyce is the person that brought this child into medical
care and called her mother as soon as she knew
(08:49):
something was wrong. So nobody's even looking at these people,
you know, they're they're sort of focusing on what was
going on in Kentucky, and there had been some strange
circumstances there. Uh there there had been an investigation from
the Family Services department out there. But then things change
after the autopsy is conducted. Um, there's an autopsy that
(09:09):
is conducted by the assistant medical examiner in Nashville who
tells the prosecutor that I know from looking at the
brain slides in this autopsy that the head trauma to
this little girl had to have happened within this window
of time that she was with Joyce and Charlie. And
the reason she says she knows that is because there
(09:30):
was a particular type of cell that she was looking for,
a healing cell. Which is called a HISTEO site, and
she says, because I didn't see this cell in the
brain slide that tells me the window of time when
this head injury could have happened was when this nine
hour window when the little girl was with Joyce and
Charlie ms Joyce. I wanted to ask you because I mean,
(09:54):
you know, I'm formally incarcerated and actually you know, turned
my self and but just this was such a nightmare
for you, and to know that you were preparing to
adopt a child and to be faced with these accusations.
How did you feel when you were actually arrested and
(10:16):
going through this this process knowing that you were innocent. Well,
I got medical TechEd for her because I thought that
was the right thing to do. So when I got
accused of that, you know, I knew it wasn't true.
So it wasn't a time to start stressing over something
(10:39):
that you didn't do. Uh, you try to find ways
to prove that you didn't do it. You just have
to be positive thinking about everything and not just fall apart.
So I didn't give up, you know, uh, point fingers
of saying that a thing lying on people, I just
(10:59):
just didn't stress all that and it was very hot.
It sell. So, Jason, if you don't mind going into
initially with trial, what was miss watkins defense what was
presented by her attorney. I mean the defense was essentially,
these people didn't do it. You know, they were interviewed,
they said they didn't do it, and there was you know,
(11:19):
nothing about them or their character that should make anyone
believe that they did it, which which was we're all
appropriate things to say. The problem is that the jury
was confronted with a medical opinion from an expert on
a subject that they don't know anything about, that none
of us would know anything about if we weren't you know,
didn't go to medical school ourselves, and nobody told them
(11:43):
that opinion was wrong. The big revelation that doesn't come
out until years later is that the type of cell
that the medical examiner was looking for in these brain
slides is not a cell that ever goes to that
part of the brain. That's not a thing. It doesn't
ever happen. Trying to date this injury by looking for
this cell is an impossibility. And the other thing that
(12:06):
the medical examiner failed to take into account, which didn't
come out until when we started having these exoneration hearings.
Was that the cells that were evident in the vaginal
slides were cells called macrophages that showed that this is
an injury that had happened in the days prior, well
before this child was ever with Joyce or Charlie. So
(12:28):
there was no medical evidence whatsoever connecting the head injury
to this nine hour window. And there was definitive medical
evidence that whatever happened in terms of any type of
vaginal injury happened well before the child was with these
two people. And you know, if you put yourself in
a jury shoes in that situation, what are you gonna do.
(12:49):
I have a lot of blame that I throw around
in this case, but it's not really at the jury
because I don't know what the jury could have done otherwise,
because nobody gave them the information they needed to hear.
If they hear from a doctor saying I know these
people did it and medically this is why, and that's
not contested, then they're stuck. And that's that's effectively what happened.
(13:09):
And the other interesting thing that happened during the trial,
which you know Joyce can talk about if you'd like
her to is that the prosecution tried to offer Joyce
a deal in the middle of the trial. You know,
they offered her, effectively a one year sentence to flip
on Charlie, to say that he raped and murdered this
little girl. And and Joyce flat out turned them down
(13:30):
in the middle of the trial and walked right back
in the courtroom and you know, and waited for the
jury to give her a life sentence. And and Charlie's
family never knew that. They learned about that at the
exoneration hearing in December of one. So you know, these
kids grew up thinking that their dad was a murderer
and and thinking that that he had gotten brought into
(13:52):
this thing because he had gone along for a ride
with Joyce. And they never knew that. You know, Joyce
effectively took a life sentence because she was unwilling to
lie on Charlie and say he did something he didn't do. Joyce.
So wow, that Ms Joyce. That is can you share
more with us about that if you don't mind, I mean,
(14:14):
because that is definitely again commendable in this day and age.
If you know, a young person goes through the system
and it's bought with that type of opportunity to free themselves.
You know, it's in the culture just to you know,
take that. But I know you knew your innocence. Can
(14:35):
you explain to us that process and what you were thinking.
I just didn't feel like I need to lie and
send that man to prison for something that I know
he didn't do. So you know, when I was off
of the year to say that he did it, I'd say, well,
I'm not gonna do that, and I went back in
the courtroom. You know, you don't do things just save yourself,
(14:59):
but you're heard that person and you're hurting their feminine
So I just thought I did the right thing by
not just lying on the man because he hadn't done anything.
It's just interesting how the government well create opportunities like that.
You know, with my situation, I was pregnant and they
(15:21):
fed me information that they wanted me to say and
thought that I would say what they wanted to say
in order to save myself. And what baffles me with
your situation again is you know they were targeting you,
then they wanted you to cooperate to flip on Mr Dunn,
And it just seems evident throughout this that they weren't
(15:43):
even interested in finding out and getting justice for the victim.
How do you feel about that? As far as whoever
the prosecutor was, whoever those parties, they were just wanting
to get a conviction by any means necessary, you know,
instead of doing their jobs and trying to seek and
(16:05):
find justice, using you guys escapegoats because they needed and
arrest and to block somebody up. How do you feel
about that? It was wrong what they did. You don't
hate anybody for anything, but you know that what they
did was wrong, and there were things that they could
have done and should have done to find not the truth.
(16:27):
But since they had focused on us, that is all
they wanted. They just wanted to conviction to close the case.
They didn't care if you did it or not. They
didn't care if they had the right person the wrong person.
They just wanted to conviction, and that's what they thought
they was gonna get. But I just wasn't going on
fall into that trap. As you speak about, you know,
(17:01):
the conviction. Once both sides finished speaking and the guilty
verdict was handing handed down, what what were your thoughts
at that moment? Oh, I was let down. I was
hot broken over it, you know, because I knew I
wasn't gonna get a chance to spend much more time
(17:21):
with my family, and it just was a hurting situation.
But as the years went through, you know, my family
tried to get me out, but then my faminous, my
civilings thought passing away. So I lost four brothers that
are sister you know, seven eight actes and office and stuff.
But I didn't give up. I just kept hoping and
(17:45):
praying and trusted. But it was a hurting situation. But
you know, like I said, I don't flip or get
stressed over something because that doesn't help. That doesn't help
solving problem anyway. Your resilience, Miss Joyce, I mean you
tap in with the ancestors and all of what our
(18:07):
ancestors went through to be where we are today, that
resilience just oozes out of you. Because your positivity through
all of this is remarkable and I don't see how
you have such peace. But if you could, can you
tell us about the parole process and when were you
(18:29):
eligible for parole? Let me just start there after after
how much time were you actually eligible to go up
for parole? What the law said I was to do
seventy point five under the old law, but I did
the twenty seven years. But I had went up for
parole two or three times and they turned me down.
(18:53):
So at the Charlie Pass, I made parole. The little girl, mother,
my nieces and my sister. They came to the parole
board and told him she don't know what happened. You
just need a lot of goal. You know, she don't know.
They don't. She don't They don't know what happened. So
I my parole. But being a parole wasn't a nice
(19:15):
thing to be, not a typnescy. I'm Kimba for what
it's worth. I'm shocked and have always been shocked that
that they paroled Joyce at all. I mean, as you know,
most of the time, if you're gonna get paroles, you've
got to go in there and say, yeah, I did it,
I'm sorry, and let me prove to you that I'm sorry.
Joyce every time she's ever been asked about this by anybody,
(19:36):
said I didn't do this. You've got somebody in prison
who's innocent. You know, a lot of times, unfortunately, people
who are wrongfully convicted who maintained their innocence. Uh, don't
parole out because they're never going to be in a
position where they admitted that they committed a crime and
that they're sorry they committed a crime because they didn't
commit a crime. Right, And that is an excellent point.
(19:57):
And you're right, that is what they expect you to say,
that you did it and that you thrushed your remorse.
And so it was meant to be to happen that way.
But how did it feel, Joyce walking out of prison
and what were some of the conditions of parole once
you were released. I had certain places I could go,
(20:18):
such streets so I could go on, you know, certain people,
so I could talk to They were coming to your
house when they got ready, teared up whatever hold on,
Miss Joyce. You said they would. They would come in
your house and tear it up. They would go through
everything you had, everything if fory pieza everything, Joyce explained
(20:41):
to Kimba. Because you weren't just on parole because of
the rape conviction. You were also on the sex offender
Registry for life. So so that's like parole times a thousand.
Sure is I had certain streets I could go to,
certain people's I could talk to sucha places I could
all I had to be at home six o'clock. I
(21:04):
had to get permission to go to church. Such stuff
I could have in the house. No Internet, they would
check my cell phone. Couldn't live within a thousand feet
of a school or a daycare facility, not not even close.
Not even close to a school or daycare. I couldn't
(21:25):
pass by during school hours. If kids was walking the
streets I had and I was on the post, I
had to go into a leave. And again it speaks
to your your perspective and resilience through it, because I
know there are some people that are on saxofriend or
registries where that could be quite challenging and depending on
(21:49):
you know, who's supervising them, it could be the least
little thing and they could be back, you know, in prison.
So I appreciate you sharing what that was like. Jason,
can you tell the audience how the Innocence Project of
Tennessee Nashville became involved in Miss Joyce's case. So most
(22:12):
people they either write us letters from prison, or their
families reach out to us, or sometimes their former lawyers
reach out to us. Joyce paroled in two thousand and fifteen,
and our organization started in Tennessee in two thousand and nineteen,
and Joyce just showed up. She we don't we don't
get a lot of walkins over at the Tennessee Innocence Project,
(22:36):
but Joyce walked in and and basically said, all right,
I was wrongfully convicted. I'm still on the sex offender
registry for a rape that I didn't commit. Uh, you'all
need to hear my story and you'll need to help.
And you know you've probably figured out by now that
you know Joyce is a force of nature and and
there there there was no saying no to Joyce when
(22:59):
she did this. So she she came in, she told
the story to everybody, and then, you know, Joyce and
I eventually started working together. And you know, when I
first met with Joyce, uh, there was another person in
the office with me who was working here, and she
kind of laid it all out and then I kicked
that person out and I closed the door. I said,
(23:20):
all right, Joyce, like, here's the deal. If we're gonna
do this, you need to tell me your story, like legit.
I need to believe you. I want to know the
real deal, and she didn't hesitate. She's like, I did
not do this. I am one innocent y'all need to
figure out how you're gonna fix it. But I did
not do this. And you know, part of me at
(23:41):
the time was also like, well, look, I get that.
Maybe you're saying you didn't do it, but what about
what about Charlie? Now Charlie has passed away at this point,
you know she can she can say whatever she wants
about Charlie. Nobody's ever gonna know, and it's just me
and her sitting in my office. But she is exactly
the same in that situation as she is when you
interview her in a Poe caster you put her on TV.
(24:01):
Charlie did not do this. That man is innocent, and
you can't just get me exonerated. You need to exonerate
him too, because he doesn't deserve this. His family doesn't
deserve this. And you know we're a two for one package.
If you're going to take this case, you're taking both
of us. Wow. That is yes. I can see her
now that I've talked to her more. I can see
(24:23):
her coming into your office and saying and doing just
those things. And I know you briefly touched it. But
what stuck out the most as you are doing this
post conviction work that ultimately lead to Miss Joyce's innocence. So,
I mean, at the heart of it, like we talked
about before, this is a medical case right there. There
are all of these other things in the mix. But
(24:46):
we knew that if if we were going to get
these people exonerated in their names cleared, we were going
to have to medically make everybody understand that they didn't
commit this crime. So we had these phenomenal experts, so
we were able to really establish that the medicine and
the science and the case was wrong, and it was
it had always been wrong, and we and everything we
(25:09):
know now you know over the last three decades was
more evidence that it was wrong. So we had that.
The other thing that we had going for us, which
was huge in this case, is that there's a conviction
review Unit that exists within the Nashville Davidson County District
Attorney's Office, and they take these cases seriously. You know.
They they conducted their own independent investigation when we brought
(25:33):
them this case, and and they went out and talked
to their own people and and confirmed that Joyce and
Charlie were innocent, and after we were able to collaborate
on this case with their office, we jointly went back
to court together and asked the judge to dismiss these
charges and exonerate these people. And and Glenn Funk, who's
(25:53):
the district attorney and Nashville, was at the court date
and stood up in the courtroom and apologized to Joyce
and Charlie's family and told them, you know that they're
innocent and this never should have happened. And on behalf
of the District Attorney's office, he's sorry what happened to them.
And uh, and that was big, right, because that was
that was really the first time that anybody that had
(26:15):
anything to do with the state stood up and acknowledged
what happened and told Joyce that they were sorry for
what happened. Can you explain when the judge did say
that her case was dismissed what that feeling was like
for you, having walked this journey with her, and then
miss Joyce, I would like to hear your response as well.
It was a lot, I mean, it was it was
(26:36):
a pretty moving, emotional day. And I'm not I'm not
really an emotional kind of guy, but it was hard
to keep it together that day. I mean, Joyce was there,
her family was there, Charlie's whole family was there, My
whole family was there. The Tennessee Innocence Project was there.
I mean it was a packed house and it was
I mean heartbreaking how we got there. But that day
(26:56):
was a celebration and that day, I mean, that day
was wonderful, Miss joy But I was desonerated, you know,
and she said, you've been exonerated. I said, thank you Jesus.
It was just it was just a happy, happy day.
And I said, right then, I said, you know, one
(27:16):
of my niece, she said, I'll tek what you're gonna do.
That first thing I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to
the cemetery and visit my mother and my sisters and brothers. Filermals.
So I got a chance to do that. You know.
It was like, I mean, you just don't know how
happy I was. You know, I think that's the happiest
I ever been in my life. You know, even if
(27:38):
I got on million dollars, I wouldn't been not happy,
you know, just because to me, I want to say, well,
it's money. But you know that was one happy day.
And when the charges with dropped, oh, I can't even
explain that because I know I didn't have to live
under nobody else's rules, like the jury just say you
(28:00):
have the answer to anybody. So I just had her
hand tod, you know, like to listen that nobody. My
first place I went to was my sister's house. I
usually have to call and say, well, I'm going to Nashville.
I ain't had to call nobody. I just got my
keys and my person. I told my namebor. Next though,
she said, it's trustful you going. I said, I fixed
the go to maps, got in the car and let
(28:23):
She said, okay. You know when I came back, she said,
how are you show what happened? I said, I have
to answer nobody, just just the happy thing to do.
(28:52):
Just your patience and faith and will to know that
things were going to change. And you know, twenty seven
years is not you know, twenty seven months. Like you
held on to that faith and resilience for twenty seven
years and there's no ill, angry feelings in your heart.
(29:19):
And I think that is what is just simply amazing.
You want to comment, you know, I getting angry doesn't happen.
They're don't at least all strokes, heart attacks, commitsion, losing
your mind, you know, want to commit suicide. Uh, I'm
(29:40):
not angry. I don't have any anger in me. I
mean I tried to get angry, but it didn't work.
So I said, well, I said, well, you know, I
just need to stay like I am. I haven't known
anger in me. I don't hate anybody for what happened.
I just don't have any anger. I mean, I think
Joyce is really the perfect example to be talking about
(30:01):
these cases. I mean, one because of all the things
you're seeing, right her grace and her forgiveness and and
the stuff that sort of shines out from her, but
also because she's just so innocent, right, I mean when
you dig into her case, I mean, she's just innocent
every way you possibly look at this, and it highlights
the tragedy of these cases and the reality of these
(30:25):
cases that this actually happens to people like Joyce. You know,
good people who have never been in trouble, who are
doing everything right, who are productive citizens. And if it
can happen to Joyce, it can happen to anybody. And
and the fact that one that it it happened to
someone like her, and the strength and perseverance that has
gotten her through it, and the grace that she's able
(30:46):
to talk about it now. Uh, it's just so inspiring,
um sure to the those of us that do this work,
but it's enlightening for anybody who gets to hear her story,
which is why it's so important that that she tells
her story and that she's gracious enough to continue to
tell her story, because unfortunately, there's lots of other choices
(31:08):
that are locked up right now for stuff that they
didn't do, and it's it's impossible to navigate these cases
on your own from behind bars without help. And unless
people recognize that the problem exists and and work with
the organizations and help the people out there that are
trying to work on these cases, other people like Joyce
(31:29):
don't get represented, and these stories don't get told, and
these people don't get their freedom. Miss Joyce, you know,
I wish you nothing but um success as you move on,
and you know, I pray that your your story continues
to be uplifted so it can help bring some light
to the injustice that happens in our system. I help,
it help, and I hope it do some good into
(31:52):
Justice Center, and I hope they look at paces a
little bit closer than what they're doing, so this never
happened to someone else, just because you know, you don't
present all the evidence. I just wish they would do
the right thing about everything, because they're not accomplished nothing
by sending them some people to prison. What's the final
take that you have for our audience today from your
(32:16):
experience and what you've shared to never give up, Never
give up. You know there are organizations somebody out there
will help you, but you can't give up and expect
to achieve your freedom. You just can't give up. You
just have to keep going and going until you get
(32:37):
to the right person. And that's what I did until
I got to the right person. But don't give up.
Whatever you do, don't give up. Thank you for listening
to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host, kimber Smith. I'd
(32:59):
like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Warts.
The senior producer for the episode is Jackie Polly, and
our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburne. Our editor
is Alexandra Guidi. The music in this production is three
time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
(33:21):
us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful
Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well
as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you
can find me on Instagram at Kembas Smith and read
more about my story and my memoir poster child. Wrongful
(33:42):
Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
association with Signal Company Number one. Next week, on the
guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction, Lura and I Writer
will be back with an absolutely insane false confession story.
(34:05):
She's going to speak with Vincent Ellerbee, who served almost
twenty five years in prison after he was falsely identified
in a deadly arson attack on a subway token booth,
an event that captivated New York City. Vincent was only
recently exonerated, totally innocent, and this emotional interview is the
first time he's sharing his story publicly anywhere. Listen next Monday.
(34:28):
This is a must listen episode. Listen next Monday in
the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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