March 25, 2024 • 37 mins
On March 30th, 2005, police were called to a home in New Orleans, LA. There, they found Renaldo Curley dead of a single gunshot wound. His estranged wife, 32-year-old Catina Curley, told police that she was in fear for her life when she shot Renaldo in self-defense. Police evidence - and the testimony of their children - showed that Renaldo had been physically abusing Catina for years. Yet, she was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison. “It could have been me, you know,” she reflects. “It could have been me that was dead and away from my kids.”
If you are experiencing domestic violence, help is available. Call the national domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-safe or text “start” to 88788.
Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freleng is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On the evening of March thirtieth, two thousand and five,
thirty two year old Katina Curley went to her house
in East New Orleans. She and her husband Rinaldo had
recently separated, and she was staying with her mother, but
she stopped in every night to help feed her four kids,
make sure their homework was done, and get them ready
for bed. Rinaldo had some visitors in the house, which
(00:26):
irritated Katina, and she and Rinaldo got into a heated argument.
This wasn't unusual. Their relationship had been volatile from the start.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
To be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate.
We started with the arguments and then from the argumist
it turned into a fight.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Rinaldo and Katina went up to the bedroom, where their
children could hear them arguing loudly. Moments later, Rinaldo rushed downstairs,
followed by Katina, and suddenly a gunshot rang out.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And I used to always tell them we don't need
no gun in a home. I never like gons, you know,
gones are dangerous, and he just was adamant to have
it there.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
When police arrived, they found Rinaldo dead from a single gunshot.
Wound to the heart. Katina was arrested that night and
charged with second degree murder.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I'm Katina Curly and I was wrongfully convicted for eleven
and a half years.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with
Maggie Freeling today Katina Curly. Katina Curley was born in
(01:47):
nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I was born here in Louisiana, New Orleans. My mom
is Sheila and my dad is Ernest. But my grandparents
raised me since birth. How come because I guess at
the time they figured that my parents were too young
to raise me.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
How old were your parents when they had you?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Fifteen?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Oh wow, so they were kids.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, they was young. They were real young.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
What was that like to grow up with your grandparents
as an only child?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
It was fun. I had everything. I was one of
the small ones, you know. I had everything that I
wanted as a child and growing up, you know, I
had all the love and support that any child can
ever ex for. You know, we used to go to
Mardi Gras. She used to take me to a lot
of parades. I used to go to a lot of
(02:37):
parties with my cousins, sleepovers and things like that. My
one favorite with me and my grandmother used to always
like to eat ice cream when it's cold. She says,
better to eat ice cream when it's cold. So I
used to sit on the sofa freezing or debt trying
to hang out with her, you know, just eating ice
cream on the sofa, looking at movies.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
When Katina was sixteen, she had her first child, Devilent,
with a high school boyfriend. A couple of years later,
her daughter, Britney was born, and then when Katina was nineteen,
she met Rinaldo Curly he was seventeen.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I met him through a friend. One of my good
friends was dating Ronaldo uncle and I was over there
one day and he came there with his uncle, and
that's how I met him.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
What struck you about him? Why did you like him?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I liked him because he was always well groomed and
he used to dress nice, smell real good.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
What did he dress like? I mean this was early,
that was ninety two, okay, so what I guess for
young girl listeners like.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I was like hip hop, you know, like jeans, T shirt, clean,
tennis and you know, he knew how to cut hair.
So he was always well groomed and at the time,
you know he was to me, he was nice, polite,
you know, that's how they come off all the time
when you first meet him.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
But not long into their relationship, Katina began to see
another side of Rinaldo.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
We started getting into it, like probably not even a
month in us dating.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
What kinds of things would you fight about?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
We would fight about? He was like when we first
got together, he was the type that came off is
you know, if you're for him, you for him. It
was like always a jealous type. If I want to
go home, he didn't want me to go home. To
be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate. We
started with the arguments, and then from the arguments it
turned into a fight, like a physical Yeah, it really
(04:37):
it got physical fast.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And what did that look like? Did he physically hit
you or was it like throwing things?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Like, no, it is physically hit me, Like physically we
used to fight.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
What did you think when that happened?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
At the time, I didn't I didn't know nothing about
domestic violence or you know, I didn't think, oh this
was abuse. I'm thinking just fighting. It's my boyfriend, were fighting.
You know, I saw fights before as growing up as
a child. So I'm thinking, this is what it is
in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That's kind of what you were seeing around you. It
just seemed kind of just normal.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
It's a norm. Man like the norm.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
In June of nineteen ninety five, Katina and Ronaldo got married.
Ronaldo had a son, also named Ronaldo, from a previous girlfriend,
and Katina had Devilon and Brittany. Over the next few years,
they added to their blended family with a son and
a daughter, Devin and April.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Was he a good dad, Yeah, he was a good dad.
I'm I can't take that away from him. You know,
he was a good dad. He basic the boys used
to catch weapons. But but yeah, he was a good dad.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
But for Katina, the pattern of abuse continued over the years.
Their arguments would turn into fights and then into physical violence.
Katina later testified to being beaten by Ronaldo on numerous occasions,
sometimes in front of their children. She suffered bruises, a
broken nose, and once Ronaldo kicked her hard enough to
(06:16):
dislocate her shoulder.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know, I love Ronaldo and I wanted to stick
it out. I really did, but some days I just
felt so disgusted and was depressing down, and I just
lost myself and it was breaking me down. And I
didn't even know that it was breaking me down because
I couldn't even find my way no more.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Katina reported the abuse to police multiple times over the years.
At one point, she says her grandmother tried to step
in and warn her.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
My grandmother, that was my best friend. She knew everything.
In the last incident before she passed. In all three,
that's when he broke my nose. And I went over
there and she looked at me, and I grabbed the
doorknob and she say tea, and I look back at her.
She said, baby, you have to get out. She says,
(07:08):
somebody's gonna get hurt. And I didn't say anything. I
just walked out the door.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
How did your children react to they abuse? Did they
see it?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
They used to hear it because we were you know,
they was in a home with us, and I used
to always like, you know, tell them to go in
a room or whatever. But if we thought like that
night and they sleep, they used to see my face
the next morning, you know, we'll go out. Tell my kids.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Were you afraid for them?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
As far as him abusing them? No, not, No, I
wasn't afraid for them. What I was afraid for is
them seeing me get abused and they thinking it's okay.
That's when it's time to exit. No matter what.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
My father was a good father and my mother was
a good mother, but they just had their own issues.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
This is April Curly, Katina and Rinaldo's youngest daughter.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
My mom is very sweet. Everybody loves her. All my
friends love her. When I was younger, she used to
take me and my siblings skating, especially on the weekends,
so we all know how to skate.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
What do you remember about your parents' relationship.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
My parents' relationship, it was good when it was good,
and when it was bad, it was bad. As far
as the fighting, the me waking up in the middle
of the night trying to protect my mom, it was
a lot.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
It's a lot of the fightings.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Like any little thing would wake me up, so if
the argument start, I know to get up, like I
know it's gonna go far.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
The The only one wasn't really scared of coming along
was my baby. That was April. She used to always
come check on me always.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
From a very young age. April and instinctively felt that
she had to protect her mother.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
I know, maybe if I come in, maybe it will stop.
Like my brothers and my sister probably still stay asleep
or stay in the room. But me, I was always
the little warrior. I was brave. I wasn't scared. I
just feel like if I was to help her, it
(09:25):
will stop. And nobody else was able to stop it
at that moment. But me, I go over there and
be like, stop hitting the I pull him off, I
tell him stop fussing. But usually if he see me,
it will stop. He had defuse the problem and he'll leave.
Or I'd just tell her, come on, get your keys
and let's go, and I'll try to leave with her,
(09:46):
something like that.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
So you did exit, Yeah, I exit a lot of times.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
To be honest with you, I exit. I exit a
lot of times. But he always found me and find
a way persuade me to come back home. Is like,
I love you, we have a baby, we have a family.
You know we're gonna work it out, and it's not
gonna happen. It's the same thing over and over and
over again. And then he got to the point where saying,
nobody not gonna love you like me, and you have
(10:15):
four kids and who's gonna take you with these kids
and all? And that's something that I thought about a lot, like,
who are gonna take me with these four kids? You know,
how how do I start all over?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Were you working?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
At that time? He didn't want me to work. I had.
I had a good bit of jobs, but he used
to always make me quit.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Eventually, Katina started a job at Walmart and she liked
it and she wanted to keep it.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
This particular job.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I told him, I said, whatever happened is gonna happen
because I've been trying to get on here and I'm
gonna work this job. I want to work. I was
tired of stay home. I was tired of being bored
being a you know, a housewife, cleaning, cooking, you know
the norm. And I just want to get out and
you know, make my own money. I wanted my own money.
I needed to find me again. And you know, as
(11:03):
the months went by, I guess he just dealt with it.
I was working at Walmart for like almost three years
before this incident happen.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
In March of two thousand and five, when Katina was
thirty two years old, she left Rinaldo yet again.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You know the reason, why I left is so we
wouldn't get into another fight. You know. I thought it
was just gonna be a few days. But the few
days turned it so a week. The week turned it
so look like another week.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Katina was staying with her mother during this time, while
the children stayed at the house with Rinaldo.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I used to go home, make sure they ate, make sure,
you know, Brittany got April together, his voice, she took
her bed, got a hell homb stuff like that. I
used to make sure they were straight, and then I leave.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
So how long were you separated before the incident?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Just like, probably almost two weeks. I'm gonna say two
weeks at the most.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
And did you feel like this was going to be
maybe the final time? Like?
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Was this.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I wanted to be the final time. I wanted it
to be the final time, but I didn't want it
to be a final time like this.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can
listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts
one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava
for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On March thirtieth, two
(12:43):
thousand and five, police were called to the Curly residence
on Bass Street in the Littlewoods area of East New Orleans.
There they found the body of twenty nine year old
Raynaldo Curley. He had been shot through the heart and
was dead. A thirty eight caliber revolver was on the
table nearby.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Okay, there, there is a lot of different versions of
what happened.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
This is Katina's post conviction attorney, Majeta Sneed.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
I'm an attorney and law professor at Loyola Law School
in New Orleans. So the shorter version, which I think
everybody agrees on, is that Katina and you know, they
were separated at the time of this incident. So Katina
would come over and parenting things would happen, but she
(13:35):
would not sleep there.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
So do you remember what started the argument that day?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
What started the argument was they had someone in the
house that wasn't supposed to be there. That was my home,
no matter what, there was me and my children's home.
You know, that was our that's my family. So why
are you here? You don't there's you know, there's to
meet as a form of disrespect.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
A neighbor Didra Andrews later testified at trial that she
had come over to the house to help Rinaldo get
the children ready for bed. Rinaldo's cousin, Chico, was also
there at the time, so.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I asked them to leave, and that's how the argument started.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Ronaldo did not appreciate her coming in and asking them
to leave, and so she proceeds to the upstairs bedroom.
He follows her. There is a confrontation. Whether the confrontation
was physical, whether it was just verbal. There's allegations that
(14:38):
he choked her, there's allegations that he threw a coke.
Speaker 6 (14:42):
Can at her.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Whatever happened in that bedroom, they were the only two
in the bedroom, and at some point he goes back downstairs.
Speaker 6 (14:55):
She grabs his gun and goes.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
Downstairs in her mind to leave the residents, but knowing
from a historical standpoint that he may attempt to stop her,
she armed herself.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Where did the gun come from?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, actually that was his gun. That was his gun.
And I used to always ask him, you know, tell him,
I don't we don't need no gun in a home.
I never liked guns, you know, guns are dangerous, and
he just was he just was adamant to have it there.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Would he ever pull it out during arguments?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, it was pulled out on me. Before it was
pulled out on me before.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
I remember Mom come home to come check on us.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
I know, I just got done, taken a bath and
I did eat, so she was coming to check on
me and my sister make sure we did our homework,
her usual you know routine.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
April was eight years old. She and three of her
siblings were home at the time, Rinaldo and Brittany, who
were both twelve, and Devin, who was ten.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
As soon as I hear the screaming of the fussing,
I'm automatically, you know, going downstairs or wherever they are.
That's where I'm going because I know it's going to
escalate to something.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Father. So when I heard her.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
You know, asked them to leave and me didn't leave,
and my dad got angry and it was like, you know,
this is his house too, and I already know it
was going to be something beyond it.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Did you do you remember hearing the gun?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Yeah? Of course I was in the stairway, so yes,
I do.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Did you see your dad? Did you see this happen?
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Actually I say everything. I remember him standing a while
before he fell down to the ground. I remember my
Mom's screaming his name, shaking, crying, and I remember a
lot of people just bum rushing into the house.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
The police come, she's arrested, and they then begin their
investigation about whether or not this was a justifiable shooting
or not.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
So in all of the versions, does everyone agree that
Katina was the shooter?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Yes, she acknowledges she was the shooter. The police ultimately
determined that it was not justifiable, turn it over to
the DA who also agreed that it was not justifiable.
And so that's how we get to her actually being
charged with second degree murder and going through a trial.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Afterwards. Before you were arrested, do you remember having any thoughts?
Were you like, what just happened?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Ma'am?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
I was on.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I don't have a clue. I was like, I was
just there like I didn't have a brain or nothing
in my head because I just couldn't believe it. What
is going on that day is a blur.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
You know, you go through there are moments where yes,
I know this, this, this and this, and at some
point there your body shuts down, your mind shuts down.
There are moments in that you know, in seconds where
you're not really sure other than fear. You could talk
about fear, but details, Why am I fearful? How did
(18:41):
I move? Which way did I turn? When did I
actually pulled the trigger? Did I actually pull the trigger?
Speaker 6 (18:46):
Those details? It is common not to be able to
answer those questions with any precision.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
When I got to the police station, you know, they
gave me water. They was asking me, kept asking me,
was our okay? And then they finally told me, you know,
I need to tell them what happened or whatever. And
I started talking and explaining, and to be honest with you,
I don't even know if I was explaining it right now.
I was just that messed up. I don't even know
(19:14):
if I was even explaining myself right Did.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You have a lawyer with you?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
No?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I didn't. I didn't.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Did you know you could?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah? They told me I could. I heard him, and
I didn't hear. It's like you hear, you don't hear.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
On August fourth, two thousand and five, Katina was indicted
on a charge of second degree murder. Her plea at
the time was not guilty by reason of insanity. This
would require that Katina prove at the time of the
shooting she didn't know right from wrong. Two days before trial,
her defense attorney John Fuller, changed her plea to not
(19:54):
guilty based on self defense and withdrew the insanity plea.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Had he kept that in, he could have then introduced
expert testimony on the issue of battered women.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
So would battered women's syndrome have been a common defense
back then, almost twenty years ago? I guess is that
something that we talked about.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
We talked about it, but it wasn't so much utilized
in domestic violence cases. It was a movie, The Burning Bed.
Farah Fawcet played a battered woman, and I'm going to
think it came out in the seventies or eighties, but
that was the first time that we actually heard about
(20:39):
a woman being justified in fighting back to the point
of death.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
What battered women's syndrome.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
Talks about is a response to stimuli when you have
suffered from trauma. So, for instance, you hear about post
traumatic stress syndrome with veterans, someone who suffers from that,
there's usually a trigger that sets that emotion, and so
(21:12):
the same with bad at women. Something happens that sets
in motion what happens to you physiologically and psychologically that
you react in a certain way. So it's not you
walking down the street and all of a sudden you say,
oh my goodness, I'm hearing these voices and I'm gonna just,
you know, go off. There's the triggers, and in bad
(21:34):
at women syndrome, it's usually the trigger from the aggressor.
The uniqueness of this case was the issue of whether
or not, in the moment that the incident occurred, whether
the person felt threatened.
Speaker 6 (21:51):
When you have a situation where.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Someone is being physically abused in the moment and the
victim reacts and kills the aggressor, a jury could look
at that and say, yes, in the moment, she felt
her life was in danger or she was in a
fear of.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
Great bodily harm. However, when you have a situation where
the jury doesn't see in the moment she was being
choked or beaten on, then you need that expert testimony
to expound on what the victim is experiencing from a
(22:35):
psychological standpoint, from a physiological standpoint, and we did not
have it in this case.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Katina's trial began in February of two thousand and seven.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
The defense put on a lot of information and a
lot of evidence regarding history of abuse in the relationship
between Katina and all dub He put on a case
of police reports, medical evidence, the testimony of her supervisor
who talked about her coming to work with bruises and
(23:11):
a broken nose. Just a history of abuse that was
documented and so the jury was well aware of that history.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
It was a sad day for both families, you know,
from my side and also his side. It was just
it was sad. And what hurted me the most is
that the children had to get up there to testify.
You know, what was that like? To see that there
was heartbreaking, It really was. It was heartbreaking because at
(23:44):
some moment they broke down. You know, their daddy is deceasing,
their mom about to go to jail. They're looking at
my mom's on trial. You know, they're not gonna have
either one of their parents. So it was really heartbreaking.
It was sad.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
April was just ten years old when she testified at
her mother's trial.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Like I said, I was brave, so at the time
I was ready, but I am very like emotional. I
try to be strong the best I could, but when
I break down, I break down.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Were a lot of the questions about like what you
saw in the hole and their relationship.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yeah, it was like did I witness abuse? When was
a time did I witness abuse? How many times have
I witnessed the abuse? Yeah, it was a lot of
a lot of questions.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Brittany and Devin also testified that they'd seen their father
be physically violent with Katina on previous occasions, but Ronaldo's
oldest son, Rinaldo, said something different.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
He refuted that there was abuse a history of abuse,
so there was, you know, there was.
Speaker 6 (24:53):
I truly believed.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
The jury narrowed their focus to that moment, to what
was happening in the seconds before Rinaldo was shot, and
because there was no evidence in the seconds before he
was shot that he was physically confronting her in any way,
that was enough for them to say she wasn't justified
(25:17):
in her action.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
On March third, two thousand and seven, Katina was convicted
of second degree murder by a vote of eleven to one.
She was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I would never thought in a million years that I
ever be in prison, and for some for murder. I've
never been incosrated in like reality had hit like I'm
really in prison. I had a life sentence over my head,
so I had nothing but time, you know, to think
what could have happened different if I would have just
(25:56):
left and stayed you know this, you know what it
could have been met. You know it could have been
meeted been dead and away from my kids. You know,
some people be content. I wasn't. I always say I'm
getting out, you know, I'm going on. I know since
(26:18):
day one when I stepped for it, it was said
it was scary, it was depressing, But I never ever
once accepted that life sentence. I never accepted it.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What was trying to parent and be a mom and
be there for your kids, like from behind bars hard.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
It was hard because you only get fifteen minutes on
the phone, so you have to keep calling and then
they'll come see me. I used to come in the
morning and leave, you know, at a certain time. But
you know, to me, that was our time to bind
and talk, play games together and stuff like that, and
it was it felt so good just to be with
(26:59):
them in that moment. But when they left, it was
so hard. It was so so hard.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
I think my mom tried her best. It just wasn't enough.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Time, you know, But we always wrote each other, we
always talked, and it didn't matter if it was the weekend,
if she had to stay up late like, we always
had our conversation. And if we didn't have a conversation,
I had letter under mail. So men and my mom
(27:32):
are really, really, really close. It was hard because I
did left with my grandmother, which.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Is my mom's mom.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
I mean I was loved, I was taking care of,
but it just wasn't the same.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, what is bringing up all the emotions right now?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
It's just a trigger for me. It's flashbacks, it's limories.
It's something you can never forget. I don't care how
much therapy, how much talking, when you live so much trauma,
it's nothing that could take that away, know about a happiness?
Speaker 4 (28:12):
What take away what I went through?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
You know, my oldest son told me one time when
he came, you know, he put his head because he
like my old man. He quiet, and I said something wrong,
de what's going on with you? And he looked at
me said we ain't have a good Christmas since you left.
And you know how bad I felt, you know how
Oh my god, that really kept me going. My children,
(28:38):
my family, my friend, they really I had so much
support and so much love, and my children. I had
to I know, I had to fight for my kids
to get out.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Tina's initial appeal to her conviction was denied. She then
filed for post conviction relief, arguing ineffective assistance of counsel.
They argued that her attorney had withdrawn the insanity defense
without consulting her, and that he had failed to educate
the jury on the effects of battered women syndrome.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
So what the Supreme Court ultimately determined was that an
expert in the area of bat.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
At women's syndrome should have been called.
Speaker 5 (29:32):
Yes, there was an effective assistance because the trial council
admittedly says I never thought about having an expert. I
wasn't well versed in the issues of bat at women's syndrome.
I thought the facts of the case alone with the
history of abuse for almost a decade, would be sufficient,
(29:53):
and so I did not even consult an expert.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
On June seventh, twenty eighteen, the Louisiana Supreme Court determined
that the jury at the original trial should have had
the benefit of expert testimony and on the basis of
ineffective counsel. The conviction was reversed and Katina was granted
a new trial. Two days later, she was released on bond.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
When I found out the day that I was going home,
it was in twenty eighteen. It was in June. I'll
never forget.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Katina was told to get dressed and go to the
prison office, but she had no idea why. When she
got there, she was surprised to see her attorney, Paul Barker,
Like what he doing here?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
And he looked and he just held the envelope. I
envelope up and he was like, you're going home. And
I hollered from the Lord Hill mercy. Oh that was
a good feeling. I jumped in a man homs like
I was a baby. It was really a good feeling.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
When she came home, we just did everything that we
used to do. We was skating, you know, we were
pulling as a family. And that was just like me
and her. It was like me her and my brother
said sisters like we stuck together.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
And then coming home to that, they was trying to
figure out, you know, who was going to take the case,
you know how who was gonna try it or whatever.
And that's when I met miss Me.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Katina's retrial began on February twenty sixth, twenty nineteen, in
Orleans Parish Criminal Court before Judge Arthur Hunter Junior. This
time there was no jury. Judge Hunter would be the
one to decide her fate. So how did you feel
at your second trial? Did you feel confident?
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, I was very confident.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
I was.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
I was nervous, don't get me wrong, because I mean,
it's a trial, it's another trial. But I was confident.
And you know, this second trial.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
But they could have rules to send you back.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, they could have rules to send me back. But
I was more confident because we had more evidence. We
had more pieces, like you know, the experts coming in.
So that's what made me more confident, you know, for
them to explain, you know, what I went through all
those years.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
At the retrial, Katina's defense team presented testimony from Beth Meek's,
a domestic violence expert, and forensic psychologist Catherine Laing.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
And so between the testing that was done by the
psychologist and the expert in that woman's syndrome in general,
we were able to show what Mss Curly was experiencing
in that moment there was justification for the fear for
(32:50):
the reaction, and based on that testimony not just from
the experts, but also from the late witnesses. When you
talk about it justifiable defense, that's an affirmative defense. And
once you put on an affirmative defense, the state has
an obligation to come back and rebuff that, and the
state was unable to do so.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Judge Hunter agreed with the defense's argument. On March first,
twenty nineteen, Katina was acquitted of the murder charge.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
That's another moment that I never forget. When they found
me not yelty. I was so excited just knowing I
can go home with my kids. Now I can breathe better.
And it was just such a blessing just to be
back with my family and my kids, just to talk
on the phone. And my son called me so much,
(33:40):
Oh my god. All in the mid Devin.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
He like a little sensitive. He looked like to the baby.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
He called your mom. What Devin. I'm like, what's wrong.
He's like, no, no, I just want to hear your voice.
He said. It feels so good just to pick up
the phone to call you. But is beautiful being out
with my kids and my eye of grant. I have
but eight of them, so they was kind of busy
when I was locked up.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
My mother is a strong Black woman, and I think
she deserves everything that she worked for, everything that she
didn't get. I feel like she deserved it. I feel
like it's helped her to live. I think it's time
for her, you know, just to you know, sit back
and just it jawed herself. It enjoyed her life, not
(34:32):
to worry so much, just to be happy.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
But even though she's out of prison, Katina still thinks
about the many women who are there because they were
victims of domestic violence, just like her.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
They have a good bit of women in there for
self defense. And I hear that they're using my case
to get a lot of women out of prison, and
they have something that got out of prison because of my.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
How does that feel?
Speaker 4 (35:02):
It feels good.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
It feels good to help other people, other women you
know that's going through the same thing I'm going through it.
As far as like domestic violence, I would like to
go talk to like different schools and go to different
functions to talk to like lawyers, doctors, police. You know
a lot of people don't know about domestic violence. You
know they hear about it, but they really don't. They
(35:25):
probably be just like me at one point, just thinking
we just fighting. But it's not okay. No matter how
you look at it, or no matter how much you
feel like things will change, when it becomes physical, it
will turn out bad.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
If you are experiencing domestic violence, help is available. Call
the National Domestic Violence Hotline at one eight hundred seventy
ninety nine safe or text start to eight eight seven
eight eight. Those numbers will be available in our episode description.
(36:39):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.
Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
links in the episode description to see how you can help.
I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,
and Kevin Wortis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea,
producer Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Beale, and researcher Shelby Souls.
(37:02):
Mixing and sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional
production by Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in
this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay
Ralph be sure to follow us on all social media
platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You
can also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling.
(37:23):
Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one
On the evening of March thirtieth, two thousand and five,
thirty two year old Katina Curley went to her house
in East New Orleans. She and her husband Rinaldo had
recently separated, and she was staying with her mother, but
she stopped in every night to help feed her four kids,
make sure their homework was done, and get them ready
for bed. Rinaldo had some visitors in the house, which
(00:26):
irritated Katina, and she and Rinaldo got into a heated argument.
This wasn't unusual. Their relationship had been volatile from the start.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
To be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate.
We started with the arguments and then from the argumist
it turned into a fight.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Rinaldo and Katina went up to the bedroom, where their
children could hear them arguing loudly. Moments later, Rinaldo rushed downstairs,
followed by Katina, and suddenly a gunshot rang out.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And I used to always tell them we don't need
no gun in a home. I never like gons, you know,
gones are dangerous, and he just was adamant to have
it there.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
When police arrived, they found Rinaldo dead from a single gunshot.
Wound to the heart. Katina was arrested that night and
charged with second degree murder.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I'm Katina Curly and I was wrongfully convicted for eleven
and a half years.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with
Maggie Freeling today Katina Curly. Katina Curley was born in
(01:47):
nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I was born here in Louisiana, New Orleans. My mom
is Sheila and my dad is Ernest. But my grandparents
raised me since birth. How come because I guess at
the time they figured that my parents were too young
to raise me.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
How old were your parents when they had you?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Fifteen?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Oh wow, so they were kids.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, they was young. They were real young.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
What was that like to grow up with your grandparents
as an only child?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
It was fun. I had everything. I was one of
the small ones, you know. I had everything that I
wanted as a child and growing up, you know, I
had all the love and support that any child can
ever ex for. You know, we used to go to
Mardi Gras. She used to take me to a lot
of parades. I used to go to a lot of
(02:37):
parties with my cousins, sleepovers and things like that. My
one favorite with me and my grandmother used to always
like to eat ice cream when it's cold. She says,
better to eat ice cream when it's cold. So I
used to sit on the sofa freezing or debt trying
to hang out with her, you know, just eating ice
cream on the sofa, looking at movies.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
When Katina was sixteen, she had her first child, Devilent,
with a high school boyfriend. A couple of years later,
her daughter, Britney was born, and then when Katina was nineteen,
she met Rinaldo Curly he was seventeen.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I met him through a friend. One of my good
friends was dating Ronaldo uncle and I was over there
one day and he came there with his uncle, and
that's how I met him.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
What struck you about him? Why did you like him?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I liked him because he was always well groomed and
he used to dress nice, smell real good.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
What did he dress like? I mean this was early,
that was ninety two, okay, so what I guess for
young girl listeners like.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I was like hip hop, you know, like jeans, T shirt, clean,
tennis and you know, he knew how to cut hair.
So he was always well groomed and at the time,
you know he was to me, he was nice, polite,
you know, that's how they come off all the time
when you first meet him.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
But not long into their relationship, Katina began to see
another side of Rinaldo.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
We started getting into it, like probably not even a
month in us dating.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
What kinds of things would you fight about?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
We would fight about? He was like when we first
got together, he was the type that came off is
you know, if you're for him, you for him. It
was like always a jealous type. If I want to
go home, he didn't want me to go home. To
be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate. We
started with the arguments, and then from the arguments it
turned into a fight, like a physical Yeah, it really
(04:37):
it got physical fast.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And what did that look like? Did he physically hit
you or was it like throwing things?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Like, no, it is physically hit me, Like physically we
used to fight.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
What did you think when that happened?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
At the time, I didn't I didn't know nothing about
domestic violence or you know, I didn't think, oh this
was abuse. I'm thinking just fighting. It's my boyfriend, were fighting.
You know, I saw fights before as growing up as
a child. So I'm thinking, this is what it is
in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That's kind of what you were seeing around you. It
just seemed kind of just normal.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
It's a norm. Man like the norm.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
In June of nineteen ninety five, Katina and Ronaldo got married.
Ronaldo had a son, also named Ronaldo, from a previous girlfriend,
and Katina had Devilon and Brittany. Over the next few years,
they added to their blended family with a son and
a daughter, Devin and April.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Was he a good dad, Yeah, he was a good dad.
I'm I can't take that away from him. You know,
he was a good dad. He basic the boys used
to catch weapons. But but yeah, he was a good dad.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
But for Katina, the pattern of abuse continued over the years.
Their arguments would turn into fights and then into physical violence.
Katina later testified to being beaten by Ronaldo on numerous occasions,
sometimes in front of their children. She suffered bruises, a
broken nose, and once Ronaldo kicked her hard enough to
(06:16):
dislocate her shoulder.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know, I love Ronaldo and I wanted to stick
it out. I really did, but some days I just
felt so disgusted and was depressing down, and I just
lost myself and it was breaking me down. And I
didn't even know that it was breaking me down because
I couldn't even find my way no more.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Katina reported the abuse to police multiple times over the years.
At one point, she says her grandmother tried to step
in and warn her.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
My grandmother, that was my best friend. She knew everything.
In the last incident before she passed. In all three,
that's when he broke my nose. And I went over
there and she looked at me, and I grabbed the
doorknob and she say tea, and I look back at her.
She said, baby, you have to get out. She says,
(07:08):
somebody's gonna get hurt. And I didn't say anything. I
just walked out the door.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
How did your children react to they abuse? Did they
see it?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
They used to hear it because we were you know,
they was in a home with us, and I used
to always like, you know, tell them to go in
a room or whatever. But if we thought like that
night and they sleep, they used to see my face
the next morning, you know, we'll go out. Tell my kids.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Were you afraid for them?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
As far as him abusing them? No, not, No, I
wasn't afraid for them. What I was afraid for is
them seeing me get abused and they thinking it's okay.
That's when it's time to exit. No matter what.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
My father was a good father and my mother was
a good mother, but they just had their own issues.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
This is April Curly, Katina and Rinaldo's youngest daughter.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
My mom is very sweet. Everybody loves her. All my
friends love her. When I was younger, she used to
take me and my siblings skating, especially on the weekends,
so we all know how to skate.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
What do you remember about your parents' relationship.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
My parents' relationship, it was good when it was good,
and when it was bad, it was bad. As far
as the fighting, the me waking up in the middle
of the night trying to protect my mom, it was
a lot.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
It's a lot of the fightings.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Like any little thing would wake me up, so if
the argument start, I know to get up, like I
know it's gonna go far.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
The The only one wasn't really scared of coming along
was my baby. That was April. She used to always
come check on me always.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
From a very young age. April and instinctively felt that
she had to protect her mother.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
I know, maybe if I come in, maybe it will stop.
Like my brothers and my sister probably still stay asleep
or stay in the room. But me, I was always
the little warrior. I was brave. I wasn't scared. I
just feel like if I was to help her, it
(09:25):
will stop. And nobody else was able to stop it
at that moment. But me, I go over there and
be like, stop hitting the I pull him off, I
tell him stop fussing. But usually if he see me,
it will stop. He had defuse the problem and he'll leave.
Or I'd just tell her, come on, get your keys
and let's go, and I'll try to leave with her,
(09:46):
something like that.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
So you did exit, Yeah, I exit a lot of times.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
To be honest with you, I exit. I exit a
lot of times. But he always found me and find
a way persuade me to come back home. Is like,
I love you, we have a baby, we have a family.
You know we're gonna work it out, and it's not
gonna happen. It's the same thing over and over and
over again. And then he got to the point where saying,
nobody not gonna love you like me, and you have
(10:15):
four kids and who's gonna take you with these kids
and all? And that's something that I thought about a lot, like,
who are gonna take me with these four kids? You know,
how how do I start all over?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Were you working?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
At that time? He didn't want me to work. I had.
I had a good bit of jobs, but he used
to always make me quit.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Eventually, Katina started a job at Walmart and she liked
it and she wanted to keep it.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
This particular job.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I told him, I said, whatever happened is gonna happen
because I've been trying to get on here and I'm
gonna work this job. I want to work. I was
tired of stay home. I was tired of being bored
being a you know, a housewife, cleaning, cooking, you know
the norm. And I just want to get out and
you know, make my own money. I wanted my own money.
I needed to find me again. And you know, as
(11:03):
the months went by, I guess he just dealt with it.
I was working at Walmart for like almost three years
before this incident happen.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
In March of two thousand and five, when Katina was
thirty two years old, she left Rinaldo yet again.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You know the reason, why I left is so we
wouldn't get into another fight. You know. I thought it
was just gonna be a few days. But the few
days turned it so a week. The week turned it
so look like another week.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Katina was staying with her mother during this time, while
the children stayed at the house with Rinaldo.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I used to go home, make sure they ate, make sure,
you know, Brittany got April together, his voice, she took
her bed, got a hell homb stuff like that. I
used to make sure they were straight, and then I leave.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
So how long were you separated before the incident?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Just like, probably almost two weeks. I'm gonna say two
weeks at the most.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
And did you feel like this was going to be
maybe the final time? Like?
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Was this.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I wanted to be the final time. I wanted it
to be the final time, but I didn't want it
to be a final time like this.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can
listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts
one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava
for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On March thirtieth, two
(12:43):
thousand and five, police were called to the Curly residence
on Bass Street in the Littlewoods area of East New Orleans.
There they found the body of twenty nine year old
Raynaldo Curley. He had been shot through the heart and
was dead. A thirty eight caliber revolver was on the
table nearby.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Okay, there, there is a lot of different versions of
what happened.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
This is Katina's post conviction attorney, Majeta Sneed.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
I'm an attorney and law professor at Loyola Law School
in New Orleans. So the shorter version, which I think
everybody agrees on, is that Katina and you know, they
were separated at the time of this incident. So Katina
would come over and parenting things would happen, but she
(13:35):
would not sleep there.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
So do you remember what started the argument that day?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
What started the argument was they had someone in the
house that wasn't supposed to be there. That was my home,
no matter what, there was me and my children's home.
You know, that was our that's my family. So why
are you here? You don't there's you know, there's to
meet as a form of disrespect.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
A neighbor Didra Andrews later testified at trial that she
had come over to the house to help Rinaldo get
the children ready for bed. Rinaldo's cousin, Chico, was also
there at the time, so.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I asked them to leave, and that's how the argument started.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Ronaldo did not appreciate her coming in and asking them
to leave, and so she proceeds to the upstairs bedroom.
He follows her. There is a confrontation. Whether the confrontation
was physical, whether it was just verbal. There's allegations that
(14:38):
he choked her, there's allegations that he threw a coke.
Speaker 6 (14:42):
Can at her.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Whatever happened in that bedroom, they were the only two
in the bedroom, and at some point he goes back downstairs.
Speaker 6 (14:55):
She grabs his gun and goes.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
Downstairs in her mind to leave the residents, but knowing
from a historical standpoint that he may attempt to stop her,
she armed herself.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Where did the gun come from?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, actually that was his gun. That was his gun.
And I used to always ask him, you know, tell him,
I don't we don't need no gun in a home.
I never liked guns, you know, guns are dangerous, and
he just was he just was adamant to have it there.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Would he ever pull it out during arguments?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, it was pulled out on me. Before it was
pulled out on me before.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
I remember Mom come home to come check on us.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
I know, I just got done, taken a bath and
I did eat, so she was coming to check on
me and my sister make sure we did our homework,
her usual you know routine.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
April was eight years old. She and three of her
siblings were home at the time, Rinaldo and Brittany, who
were both twelve, and Devin, who was ten.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
As soon as I hear the screaming of the fussing,
I'm automatically, you know, going downstairs or wherever they are.
That's where I'm going because I know it's going to
escalate to something.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Father. So when I heard her.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
You know, asked them to leave and me didn't leave,
and my dad got angry and it was like, you know,
this is his house too, and I already know it
was going to be something beyond it.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Did you do you remember hearing the gun?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Yeah? Of course I was in the stairway, so yes,
I do.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Did you see your dad? Did you see this happen?
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Actually I say everything. I remember him standing a while
before he fell down to the ground. I remember my
Mom's screaming his name, shaking, crying, and I remember a
lot of people just bum rushing into the house.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
The police come, she's arrested, and they then begin their
investigation about whether or not this was a justifiable shooting
or not.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
So in all of the versions, does everyone agree that
Katina was the shooter?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Yes, she acknowledges she was the shooter. The police ultimately
determined that it was not justifiable, turn it over to
the DA who also agreed that it was not justifiable.
And so that's how we get to her actually being
charged with second degree murder and going through a trial.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Afterwards. Before you were arrested, do you remember having any thoughts?
Were you like, what just happened?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Ma'am?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
I was on.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I don't have a clue. I was like, I was
just there like I didn't have a brain or nothing
in my head because I just couldn't believe it. What
is going on that day is a blur.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
You know, you go through there are moments where yes,
I know this, this, this and this, and at some
point there your body shuts down, your mind shuts down.
There are moments in that you know, in seconds where
you're not really sure other than fear. You could talk
about fear, but details, Why am I fearful? How did
(18:41):
I move? Which way did I turn? When did I
actually pulled the trigger? Did I actually pull the trigger?
Speaker 6 (18:46):
Those details? It is common not to be able to
answer those questions with any precision.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
When I got to the police station, you know, they
gave me water. They was asking me, kept asking me,
was our okay? And then they finally told me, you know,
I need to tell them what happened or whatever. And
I started talking and explaining, and to be honest with you,
I don't even know if I was explaining it right now.
I was just that messed up. I don't even know
(19:14):
if I was even explaining myself right Did.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You have a lawyer with you?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
No?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I didn't. I didn't.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Did you know you could?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah? They told me I could. I heard him, and
I didn't hear. It's like you hear, you don't hear.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
On August fourth, two thousand and five, Katina was indicted
on a charge of second degree murder. Her plea at
the time was not guilty by reason of insanity. This
would require that Katina prove at the time of the
shooting she didn't know right from wrong. Two days before trial,
her defense attorney John Fuller, changed her plea to not
(19:54):
guilty based on self defense and withdrew the insanity plea.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Had he kept that in, he could have then introduced
expert testimony on the issue of battered women.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
So would battered women's syndrome have been a common defense
back then, almost twenty years ago? I guess is that
something that we talked about.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
We talked about it, but it wasn't so much utilized
in domestic violence cases. It was a movie, The Burning Bed.
Farah Fawcet played a battered woman, and I'm going to
think it came out in the seventies or eighties, but
that was the first time that we actually heard about
(20:39):
a woman being justified in fighting back to the point
of death.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
What battered women's syndrome.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
Talks about is a response to stimuli when you have
suffered from trauma. So, for instance, you hear about post
traumatic stress syndrome with veterans, someone who suffers from that,
there's usually a trigger that sets that emotion, and so
(21:12):
the same with bad at women. Something happens that sets
in motion what happens to you physiologically and psychologically that
you react in a certain way. So it's not you
walking down the street and all of a sudden you say,
oh my goodness, I'm hearing these voices and I'm gonna just,
you know, go off. There's the triggers, and in bad
(21:34):
at women syndrome, it's usually the trigger from the aggressor.
The uniqueness of this case was the issue of whether
or not, in the moment that the incident occurred, whether
the person felt threatened.
Speaker 6 (21:51):
When you have a situation where.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Someone is being physically abused in the moment and the
victim reacts and kills the aggressor, a jury could look
at that and say, yes, in the moment, she felt
her life was in danger or she was in a
fear of.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
Great bodily harm. However, when you have a situation where
the jury doesn't see in the moment she was being
choked or beaten on, then you need that expert testimony
to expound on what the victim is experiencing from a
(22:35):
psychological standpoint, from a physiological standpoint, and we did not
have it in this case.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Katina's trial began in February of two thousand and seven.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
The defense put on a lot of information and a
lot of evidence regarding history of abuse in the relationship
between Katina and all dub He put on a case
of police reports, medical evidence, the testimony of her supervisor
who talked about her coming to work with bruises and
(23:11):
a broken nose. Just a history of abuse that was
documented and so the jury was well aware of that history.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
It was a sad day for both families, you know,
from my side and also his side. It was just
it was sad. And what hurted me the most is
that the children had to get up there to testify.
You know, what was that like? To see that there
was heartbreaking, It really was. It was heartbreaking because at
(23:44):
some moment they broke down. You know, their daddy is deceasing,
their mom about to go to jail. They're looking at
my mom's on trial. You know, they're not gonna have
either one of their parents. So it was really heartbreaking.
It was sad.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
April was just ten years old when she testified at
her mother's trial.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Like I said, I was brave, so at the time
I was ready, but I am very like emotional. I
try to be strong the best I could, but when
I break down, I break down.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Were a lot of the questions about like what you
saw in the hole and their relationship.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yeah, it was like did I witness abuse? When was
a time did I witness abuse? How many times have
I witnessed the abuse? Yeah, it was a lot of
a lot of questions.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Brittany and Devin also testified that they'd seen their father
be physically violent with Katina on previous occasions, but Ronaldo's
oldest son, Rinaldo, said something different.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
He refuted that there was abuse a history of abuse,
so there was, you know, there was.
Speaker 6 (24:53):
I truly believed.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
The jury narrowed their focus to that moment, to what
was happening in the seconds before Rinaldo was shot, and
because there was no evidence in the seconds before he
was shot that he was physically confronting her in any way,
that was enough for them to say she wasn't justified
(25:17):
in her action.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
On March third, two thousand and seven, Katina was convicted
of second degree murder by a vote of eleven to one.
She was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I would never thought in a million years that I
ever be in prison, and for some for murder. I've
never been incosrated in like reality had hit like I'm
really in prison. I had a life sentence over my head,
so I had nothing but time, you know, to think
what could have happened different if I would have just
(25:56):
left and stayed you know this, you know what it
could have been met. You know it could have been
meeted been dead and away from my kids. You know,
some people be content. I wasn't. I always say I'm
getting out, you know, I'm going on. I know since
(26:18):
day one when I stepped for it, it was said
it was scary, it was depressing, But I never ever
once accepted that life sentence. I never accepted it.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What was trying to parent and be a mom and
be there for your kids, like from behind bars hard.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
It was hard because you only get fifteen minutes on
the phone, so you have to keep calling and then
they'll come see me. I used to come in the
morning and leave, you know, at a certain time. But
you know, to me, that was our time to bind
and talk, play games together and stuff like that, and
it was it felt so good just to be with
(26:59):
them in that moment. But when they left, it was
so hard. It was so so hard.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
I think my mom tried her best. It just wasn't enough.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Time, you know, But we always wrote each other, we
always talked, and it didn't matter if it was the weekend,
if she had to stay up late like, we always
had our conversation. And if we didn't have a conversation,
I had letter under mail. So men and my mom
(27:32):
are really, really, really close. It was hard because I
did left with my grandmother, which.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Is my mom's mom.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
I mean I was loved, I was taking care of,
but it just wasn't the same.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, what is bringing up all the emotions right now?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
It's just a trigger for me. It's flashbacks, it's limories.
It's something you can never forget. I don't care how
much therapy, how much talking, when you live so much trauma,
it's nothing that could take that away, know about a happiness?
Speaker 4 (28:12):
What take away what I went through?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
You know, my oldest son told me one time when
he came, you know, he put his head because he
like my old man. He quiet, and I said something wrong,
de what's going on with you? And he looked at
me said we ain't have a good Christmas since you left.
And you know how bad I felt, you know how
Oh my god, that really kept me going. My children,
(28:38):
my family, my friend, they really I had so much
support and so much love, and my children. I had
to I know, I had to fight for my kids
to get out.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Tina's initial appeal to her conviction was denied. She then
filed for post conviction relief, arguing ineffective assistance of counsel.
They argued that her attorney had withdrawn the insanity defense
without consulting her, and that he had failed to educate
the jury on the effects of battered women syndrome.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
So what the Supreme Court ultimately determined was that an
expert in the area of bat.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
At women's syndrome should have been called.
Speaker 5 (29:32):
Yes, there was an effective assistance because the trial council
admittedly says I never thought about having an expert. I
wasn't well versed in the issues of bat at women's syndrome.
I thought the facts of the case alone with the
history of abuse for almost a decade, would be sufficient,
(29:53):
and so I did not even consult an expert.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
On June seventh, twenty eighteen, the Louisiana Supreme Court determined
that the jury at the original trial should have had
the benefit of expert testimony and on the basis of
ineffective counsel. The conviction was reversed and Katina was granted
a new trial. Two days later, she was released on bond.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
When I found out the day that I was going home,
it was in twenty eighteen. It was in June. I'll
never forget.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Katina was told to get dressed and go to the
prison office, but she had no idea why. When she
got there, she was surprised to see her attorney, Paul Barker,
Like what he doing here?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
And he looked and he just held the envelope. I
envelope up and he was like, you're going home. And
I hollered from the Lord Hill mercy. Oh that was
a good feeling. I jumped in a man homs like
I was a baby. It was really a good feeling.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
When she came home, we just did everything that we
used to do. We was skating, you know, we were
pulling as a family. And that was just like me
and her. It was like me her and my brother
said sisters like we stuck together.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
And then coming home to that, they was trying to
figure out, you know, who was going to take the case,
you know how who was gonna try it or whatever.
And that's when I met miss Me.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Katina's retrial began on February twenty sixth, twenty nineteen, in
Orleans Parish Criminal Court before Judge Arthur Hunter Junior. This
time there was no jury. Judge Hunter would be the
one to decide her fate. So how did you feel
at your second trial? Did you feel confident?
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, I was very confident.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
I was.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
I was nervous, don't get me wrong, because I mean,
it's a trial, it's another trial. But I was confident.
And you know, this second trial.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
But they could have rules to send you back.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, they could have rules to send me back. But
I was more confident because we had more evidence. We
had more pieces, like you know, the experts coming in.
So that's what made me more confident, you know, for
them to explain, you know, what I went through all
those years.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
At the retrial, Katina's defense team presented testimony from Beth Meek's,
a domestic violence expert, and forensic psychologist Catherine Laing.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
And so between the testing that was done by the
psychologist and the expert in that woman's syndrome in general,
we were able to show what Mss Curly was experiencing
in that moment there was justification for the fear for
(32:50):
the reaction, and based on that testimony not just from
the experts, but also from the late witnesses. When you
talk about it justifiable defense, that's an affirmative defense. And
once you put on an affirmative defense, the state has
an obligation to come back and rebuff that, and the
state was unable to do so.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Judge Hunter agreed with the defense's argument. On March first,
twenty nineteen, Katina was acquitted of the murder charge.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
That's another moment that I never forget. When they found
me not yelty. I was so excited just knowing I
can go home with my kids. Now I can breathe better.
And it was just such a blessing just to be
back with my family and my kids, just to talk
on the phone. And my son called me so much,
(33:40):
Oh my god. All in the mid Devin.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
He like a little sensitive. He looked like to the baby.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
He called your mom. What Devin. I'm like, what's wrong.
He's like, no, no, I just want to hear your voice.
He said. It feels so good just to pick up
the phone to call you. But is beautiful being out
with my kids and my eye of grant. I have
but eight of them, so they was kind of busy
when I was locked up.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
My mother is a strong Black woman, and I think
she deserves everything that she worked for, everything that she
didn't get. I feel like she deserved it. I feel
like it's helped her to live. I think it's time
for her, you know, just to you know, sit back
and just it jawed herself. It enjoyed her life, not
(34:32):
to worry so much, just to be happy.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
But even though she's out of prison, Katina still thinks
about the many women who are there because they were
victims of domestic violence, just like her.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
They have a good bit of women in there for
self defense. And I hear that they're using my case
to get a lot of women out of prison, and
they have something that got out of prison because of my.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
How does that feel?
Speaker 4 (35:02):
It feels good.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
It feels good to help other people, other women you
know that's going through the same thing I'm going through it.
As far as like domestic violence, I would like to
go talk to like different schools and go to different
functions to talk to like lawyers, doctors, police. You know
a lot of people don't know about domestic violence. You
know they hear about it, but they really don't. They
(35:25):
probably be just like me at one point, just thinking
we just fighting. But it's not okay. No matter how
you look at it, or no matter how much you
feel like things will change, when it becomes physical, it
will turn out bad.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
If you are experiencing domestic violence, help is available. Call
the National Domestic Violence Hotline at one eight hundred seventy
ninety nine safe or text start to eight eight seven
eight eight. Those numbers will be available in our episode description.
(36:39):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.
Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
links in the episode description to see how you can help.
I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,
and Kevin Wortis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea,
producer Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Beale, and researcher Shelby Souls.
(37:02):
Mixing and sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional
production by Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in
this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay
Ralph be sure to follow us on all social media
platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You
can also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling.
(37:23):
Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one
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