Dune: Prophecy Episode 2 with Haitch and Jason from Escape Hatch

Abu is joined by fellow Dune nerds Haitch and Jason from Escape Hatch to break down the second episode of Dune: Prophecy on HBO!

Check out https://escapehatchpod.com and follow Haitch and Jason on Instagram.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for Dune Prophecy Episode two
two Wolves. Hi, folks, I'm a boo and welcome to

(00:24):
x ray Vision Extras and x Ray Vision Series, where
we dive deep into even more of your favorite shows, movies, comics,
and pop culture. Every superhero team needs side quests and
our rotating panel of producers and guest hosts. We'll be
suiting up to help Jason and Rosie cover all of
the amazing nerd content out there today. I'm joined by

(00:47):
my fellow Dune nerds h and Jason. Let's go from
the Escape Patch podcast. Guys, thank you so much for
joining me.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
The Dune Nerd cohort.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
That's right, our legion, we stretch across the galaxy. It's
our time, stronger than we've ever been down here, it's
our time.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, we've labored in darkness for twenty forty fifty years.
Now the light of Max has shown upon us.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's right. Yeah, so I might say we've waited ten
thousand years. Yeah, and our plans have finally come to fruition.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
We're living in a bit of a dunoisance, aren't we.
Like there's been no better time to be a Dune fan.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
I'd say it's pretty crazy watching this show and I'm like,
is this too much Dune?

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Am I like, as like a.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Big dune head who's talked about Dune and has a
Dune podcasts, I'm like.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
This is a lot. There's a lot of Dune for people.
I hope the people want Dune because they're getting it
in spades right now. It's a bumper crop season.

Speaker 4 (01:41):
And then the backdrop of this, you've got the full
on Dune Part two FYC campaign running. You know, Denise
sitting down with Nolan and Zendeas out there like those
people are just on one right now. It is happening. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, there's a lot of Dune out there, and I
feel like the people do want Dune. You know, people
are eating it up and being introduced to this world.
There's a lot of Spice daddies out there who have
been Dune fans since the eighties nineties and then passed
it on to their children. But I think we're getting
a new cohort of Dune fans as well, thanks to
the Danny Ville Neve adaptations and all this new Dune

(02:14):
stuff forgetting I'll.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Be right back. I got to update my bio to
say spice Daddy.

Speaker 4 (02:20):
I also think with this episode, I think this show
is starting to find its footing, yeah, and really starting
to kick into gears. So it'll be interesting to see
how that resonates with people out there.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, definitely. Well, before we jump into recapping this episode
and sharing all of our nerdy Dune thoughts about it,
I am curious for our X ray Vision listeners who
might not have heard your guys' work. Can you each
fill me in on what your history with Dune is,
When did you first come across it, and how's it
played a role in your life.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
So I read Dune at thirteen and was absolutely obsessed
with how awesome it was and what it would be
like to have all these super cool powers and to
beat Paula Trady's the coolest hero ever out there. And
I made it most of the way through Children Dune
before falling off and giving up nerdom for a while
through high school. So it's just been something that was there,

(03:07):
and as I circle back around, it has been an
anchor point for me, so much so that Jason and
I started a Dune podcast in twenty twenty just in
anticipation of the new Dune movie coming out, So that's
how we got into it.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Nice. What about you, Jason, Yeah, somewhat similar.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
And you know, it's funny because we asked this question
of people as well who come on our podcast, and
some of them have no history with Dune, and some
of them have a very long history. The ones that
do it does tend to center around the thirteen year old,
mostly boy but not exclusively audience certainly that found this
book and like it just was like a prescient drug.
You know, it was a hallucinatory drug for a certain

(03:44):
type of nerdy gen X boy who was like, yes,
like there's a universe of special people. I knew it,
and if I could only use my brain to like
hone my attention and harness my body, then I too
could be the universe's ultimate as super being. I think
it's a message that does speak particularly to teenagers, and

(04:05):
then I think the rewarding part of Doune is that
you get older and you read into it, you realize
how subversive a lot of that message is actually meant
to be, and there's actual layers and nuanced to that
kind of surface the uber Mench story, and that's what
led us to start a podcast about it, and it's
been super fun.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, the darker side of that power fantasy, right, mm hmmm,
it would actually maybe be a little awful being Spider
Man as cool as it would be to swing around. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:32):
And the danger of other people getting caught up in it, right,
other people being obsessed with this hero as being the
real challenge.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
And as time has gone on, the message of the
danger of a charismatic leader generally and the danger of
a charismatic leader who's also a super nerd has only
become more relevant to our current state of affairs. So
it's really funny that Denny finally succeeded in bringing this
work to the screen after so many kin of there's

(05:01):
adaptations that we are fond of, but there are haven't
even ones that really plumb the true depths of what this.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Work I think Frank Arbin intended.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
And now we're in this place where people are able
to really see it for what it is, and it's
pretty great and right on time.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, totally. Okay, Well, let's get into Dune Prophecy what
we're all here to talk about, specifically Dune Prophecy episode two.
Jumping right into our recap, we begin this episode with
a credit sequence, yeah, something we didn't get in the
pilot episode. We get like a very classic HBO credit sequence.
Lots of sand, lots of dune imagery, lots of worm stuff,
the blade with the blood.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
Blade with the blood pomegranate, that's right, very sexy pomegranate.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
A lot of imagery here. And certainly I don't know
if you two watched Foundation on Apple TV Plus, but
I got shades of Foundation intro sequence, yeah from this
as well, for sure. And after this credit opening credit sequence,
we joined Tula back on Wallack nine as she and
a former Benny Jesuits sister named doctor Nazir, who is
now a Souk doctor. And we know that from the

(06:01):
female suk that's right, a female Suk doctor. Yeah, we
know that from the diamond on her forehead. They examined
Kasha's body and ultimately the examination is basically inconclusive. All
they've been able to tell so far is that there
was no use of a quote unquote accelerant in the
body to look could not detect anything there, and doctor

(06:22):
Nazir tells us that there was a quote acute imbalance
in her meridian network end quote.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
I mean, like, who hasn't been through that honestly, Like
I have two I have two children, and my meridian
lines have not been balanced in approximately six to seven years.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Real.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yeah, though that's unreal. She died of like improper Kundalini
yoga practice, Yeah, exactly, Like it's a it's a real
indictment of whatever Pilate studio she went to right before
taking a nap.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
So yeah, bummer for her. She really just went up
like a Roman candle because of that reformer Mischache. Yeah,
I don't know, or Casha, Yeah all right, Pete.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
But what I find interesting is I think the show
is still keeping it very open to interpretation, especially for
Dene nerds like us. What this was. Are we talking
in psychic magic power? Are we talking like tlaylac xue, nanobots,
technology attack?

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Right?

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Doctor Nazir and Toula's examination still leaves both possibilities open
In my mind totally.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
I think that's one of the most exciting things being
a dunehead but not familiar with this story in any way,
is that like, up until literally these two hours of television,
there is not a thing from Dune Proper that you
could put on screen where I wouldn't be like, well,
you know.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
That's doctor Yue.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
He's gonna portray everyone Like yeah, I would know what
was being signified by even if they were dressing it
up in different terms, even if it was like Yodoroski's
doing a Mick Jagger was in it or whatever. It's like,
I know where the story's going because I know the
bones of it. This is like this meridian misalignment combustioned situation.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I don't know, I got nothing on that. I haven't
seen that before.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
And so it is fun to finally be presented with
a real mystery. And I would say in Dune there's
not often a lot of real mystery because Herbert is
notorious for saying there's a secret plot at work in
chapter one, right, and then chapter two is the meeting
of the secret plotters, who tell you exactly what the
secret plot is, and so there's really not a mystery.

(08:19):
It's just a question of how the main character is
going to bump up against the mystery. And even the
main character is usually a super being who's omnipresent and omniprescient,
and you know when they finally encounter the plotters, like, yeah, man,
I know you've been doing this.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Shit since the beginning. Oh this is that, Like, this
is not a big surprise for me.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
The universe is super being. What did you think you're
gonna pull here? But like on this one, like I'm
completely in the dark age. I don't know if you
knew what was going on with the combustion.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
No, it's I think this is a fun part. And
but we specifically have not read any of Brian's books,
so we are coming into this fairly open. But to me,
the interesting part of this I had to look up
what is the Meridian Network, and it's a traditional Chinese
medicine concept. And this is again Herbert blending all these
different techniques and all these religions and all these different

(09:05):
ideas that are not just traditional Western infusing them together
in a very interesting way. Like, of course the Souk
would be trained on traditional Chinese medicine and chi and
that stuff.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
So yeah, of course, y plus the connection to the
Mandarin that we saw in the Villna films from Doctor.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
YUEI Yeah, yeah, absolutely very cool.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Well, returning to our recap, Tula gives Folly an update
on the Kasha situation and Volley declares, Yo, okay, I
gotta go to Seleucia secundis. Things are up in the air,
and I need to go fill the gap left by Kasha.
I gotta get this situation with house for Chesy and
the Emperor under control while I'm away, Valia, I need

(09:46):
you to have Lilah undergo the agony.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
And so one interesting thing here she does not say like,
let me go make sure and protect Inez. She says,
we need to secure the princess to protect our plans. Like,
it is not about Inez who need to be protected.
It's just about what Valia wants. That's the only thing
that matters.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, which will come up again later in this episode,
because Sister Jen will tell Lila, Yeah, they only care
about the institution. They don't care about you as a
person in particular. Right, the plan comes first, the sisterhood
itself comes first for any one person.

Speaker 4 (10:19):
Yeah, And I think you do get this great slice
of tula here. I love this performance that Olivia is giving,
and she to me through this, she comes across as
very genuine. I had moments where I was like questioning,
is she manipulating things as well? But she does come
across ultimately as quite genuine.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, and we'll touch on it. I do think she
is doing some manipulating throughout this episode, in particularly with
Lila in soft convincing her to go through with the agony.
But the returning to Lylah. The important thing here and
the big revelation we get in this episode pretty early on,
is that Lilah's great great grandmother is none other than
ra Kella from the first episode. And we need Lyla

(11:01):
to undergo this agony. Is that so that she can
tap into her other memories and dial in Raquela real
quick and double check their facts here about the prophecy.

Speaker 3 (11:11):
Yes, she's gonna go check her ancestral voicemail, great great
grandma find out.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
What exactly were you talking? What did you see? Because
things have gone sideways right here in the present time.

Speaker 4 (11:21):
So I want to ask you a question here. So
to me, the big one of the big questions for
this series is you know what is this tyran rfl
this reckoning that they keep talking about. Yes, so we
have an open question of like, A, is it Desmond
Heart and what is happening right here? B is it
Paula Trades becoming the emperor and unleashing a jihad that

(11:42):
will span across the galaxy cee. Is it the events
in God Emperor of Doune and the Tyrant and all
of that. I assume we're going to try and be
spoiler free for that that later stuff or even d
or E or whatever. Is it like the what you McCall.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
A prince who was promised that we won't get to
because time compression in the eighth season.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Exactly exactly right, something something three ad Raven Yeah, yeah,
you know. I think I think like the interesting part
and similar to leaving Desmond's powers still up in the
air and vague, I think we're intentionally leaving a tieran
RFL super vague, and it could be any of those
things that you listed. It could also be more Brian

(12:23):
Herbert type stuff like Omnius the Overmind, who's like the
big robot brain overmind, evil guy. I still don't think
we know. I think Valia is assuming it is Desmond,
and so by the end of this episode we see
her like really try to go hard in the paint
against Desmond and fail spectacularly. But I think that's a
very poignant question and something the show wants us to

(12:47):
be asking in all of these episodes, and hopefully over
the next couple episodes we will start getting more answers
towards what that danger might be.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
It might just be the Benejees where it's like border security.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
Threat. There's a threat we have to protect the Sisterhood homeland.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
That's right, Yeah, like the I think that the interesting
thing because of the Brian Herbert influence on it. You
mentioned sort of his interest with like artificial superintelligence, and
the beginning of the first episode is the first depiction
we've ever had of the Baan Jahad, and the cover
story for the Rashek kid dying is that it was
his forbidden mechanistic toy that did it. I think there

(13:25):
is an overriding interest in the artificial intelligence part of
the Herbert universe, which is relatively unexplored in Frank Herbert's Hexology.
It's backdrop, but like it's ever encountered. Brian brings it
forward in the conclusion and then writes a lot more
about it subsequently, and so I wouldn't be surprised that

(13:47):
the threat of a artificial superintelligence is the lurking Big Bad,
either in the person of Heart or in some other
quadrant of the story that's yet to be explored.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, and for but it's worth I interviewed Alison Chapter,
the showrunner for Outside of x Ray, my own Dune
podcast Outside of x Ray, and she did very much
confirm that artificial intelligence, the dangers of technology, the human
technology relationship is a central theme that they will be
exploring in this show. It was something that they were

(14:19):
very much keeping in mind.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, it would be surprising given current events and that
if it was just like, actually, we have nothing to
say about AI, artificial general intelligence.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, exactly. All right, let's return to Seleuci Secundus and
this episode, things in the Imperial Court not going well.
Duke rich Hazy is absolutely livid, obviously heartbroken, seemingly over
the death of his son Pruitt. As you stated, Jason,
the death has been blamed on the little Decepticon robot toy,

(14:49):
and the Duke doesn't really buy this. We know from
the larger lore of the story, in particular Brian Herbert's
books where rich Hazy plays a bigger role, are playing
around with a lot of tech. I suspect the Duke
knows this toy would not have been able to harm
right someone like this and so he's really not buying
what the Emperor and Empress are trying to sell him.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
You know, you know who is not busted up is
our man Constantine, who is just he is sending f
me eyes to Pruitt sisters.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yea, so hard throughout the entire.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Is not the time and place.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yes, like, your.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Little brother just got cooked like a microwave hot dog,
and maybe you want to go back to my very
ornate treehouse slumber pad after this wraps up, after we
have the coffee cake.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Pretty strong moves from Constantine.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, and to be fair, Prud's sisters also given him
his back.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Oh for sure doesn't care about this.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Neither of them are really here for this funeral.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
There's a line of dialogue She's like, I didn't know
that kid. Whatever, It's fine, I'm here to hook up totally.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
But it's interesting the Emperor doesn't show for that, and
that the Empress is the one who is Perry. Yeah,
we're chazy. But then jumping straight to there to Desmond
and the Emperor, that scene is amazing.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yes, I loved this. This was one of my favorite
scenes in this episode. We cut from that funeral to
Desmond and the Emperor having a private meeting in what
I've come to assume is the Emperor's podcast studio.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
Yes, Yes, soundproofing is excellent.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Where he's like, this week we talk about everything.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah, and in fact, this week on the podcast episode
Desmond confessing to murder.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
That's a good Patreon exclusive. If you you wanted it,
you get the confession. Like any of the episode, it's wild.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
He I mean, he really digs deep and doubles down.
He's like, look, I killed a young boy for you
once you want anyone who want to kill who's on
your ship list?

Speaker 2 (16:55):
He's like, I think you know what you're dealing with here, right,
Like I kill people, you sort of like wink sideways
and people turn up burnt from the inside. Like that's right.
I thought we had an understanding.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Didn't we talk about this? Do you not remember the
other night? And I will say, Mark Strong, it has
been a highlight for me in this show.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
He plays this like inept dufics of an Emperor really well,
and he's like, I, this is not what I meant,
This is not what I wanted. What are you talking about?
You confessing to my face on my podcast?

Speaker 2 (17:25):
Right now?

Speaker 4 (17:25):
He looks to the side. There's nobody there, dude, I
know who you're looking to it like.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
I mean, presumably he's looking for Kasha, who's not there,
you know.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah, good, good point.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
He like really seems incapable of making his own decisions
without Kasha. She's become clearly become a crutch for him.
But he does come to a decision. He says, all right,
arrest this man, get him out of here. Karin A
Trades come to your thing, and they take Desmond and
throw him in the suspenser prison.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Dude, which looks luxurious? Awesome?

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Does it not look kind of fun?

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Me in the suspenser prison? My god?

Speaker 3 (17:58):
Like, what how much does that treat costs? It seems great.
It doesn't seem bad at all. Like, what's the downside
of the suspenser prison? It seems great.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Maybe you're isolated a little bit, but you know, you're floating.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
It is a good time to point out that the
production design and the overall like set design of this
show is riduculous.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, oh my goodness.

Speaker 3 (18:16):
I mean it looks like one hundred million dollars every
single time they show any exterior. It's so ornate, it's
so well considered. I really like that. It seems to
have roots in the Patrice Vermett Denny villaneuv designed like
Dune universe from the movies, but it's got more detail
of more places than we've just never seen before. So
there's a lot more kind of there's a lot more

(18:38):
locations to explore and everything from the aforementioned pleasure treehouse
place where the Prince has his way with the Rechef's daughter,
to the Suspenser's spot to like the Emperor's like podcasting studio.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
All these locations.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
Are unreal, like they all look phenomenal, truly.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
That's a real strength of the show.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
I feel I couldn't agree more. Okay, well, let's get
to an other unreal scene Constantine and Pruitt's sister. As
we discussed earlier, they're bumping some purple spice and also
bumping each other, yeah sexually, and we all mourn in our.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Own ways differently exactly.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Sometimes you just need to do cocaine.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
This scene is four minutes long.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
It's really long.

Speaker 4 (19:21):
It definitely goes like three.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
And a half minutes too long in my opinion, But.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
I was watching it by myself, and I was like,
if I get walked in on what is my explanation
going to be for this, like very extensive, like space
cocaine or like sexye like this.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
Honey, I have to talk about it for a podcast?

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Is for work, This is I'm taking this is my job.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah. Well, there's a lot of politics being talked about
while the cocaine in sex is also being done. And
to me, I don't know if y'all picked up on this,
but to me, it's clear Pruet's sister has the upper hand.
She's mu more politically savvy than a boy Constantine.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Oh yeah, and he.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Basically just like wiki leaks state secrets, right, he lets
the secret about Desmond out and obviously that's going to
come back to bite him in the ass in just
a little bit here. It's a weak moment for Constantine, Toughly.

Speaker 4 (20:15):
It is weak for him, but it also is is
a good moment for her, Like she is playing the
game right, so she knows what's happening, and this kind
of like gambit just to say, like, hey, if we
take a racus like it doesn't really matter. I was
taking that as her reaching out to him to see
if she could pull him in. Maybe he does become
the Emperor, they can still seize it, pushing as out

(20:35):
of the way or something.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, this current crop of Carinos seems distink, like they're
just not really good. The Emperor's befuddled all the time,
seemingly dependent on one of his subordinates.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
For his entire military, which is not a great position
to be in.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
It Like may have accidentally, on purpose ordered the death
of a kid. And then you've got, you know, his
son who's kind of a f boy, just out there
doing drugs and telling family secrets around pillow Talk and
his treehouse for it. It's not a great situation for
the Carinos at this point in time.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, Yanez seems to be perhaps one of the only
capable ones. But the thing that bothered me was where
is she this whole right? So she's very much been sidelined.
Does she not know about Desmond? Does she not know
what the Emperor's doing right now? Is she just in
her room grieving the whole time? She seems weirdly out
of the bubble at the moment.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
How grief stricken can she be? It's not like she
was like madly in love with through it.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
No, No, it's not that.

Speaker 4 (21:33):
It's when Valia shows up for Kasha.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
For Kasha, yeah, because I think they had a bit
of a maternal relationship there.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Well.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Returning to Wallach nine eight in our episode, here, Lila
is struggling with this major decision that Tula has asked
of her to go through the Agne or not two.
She consults her fellow sisters for some advice. Sister Emmeline,
for example, tells her, Hey, sacrificing a human life is
one of the greatest honors one can do. And you know,

(22:02):
if things go bad and you like die or whatever,
you'll just go live in other memory with all our
fellow sisters. It's like heaven for the.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Sister totally chill, yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Whereas Sister Jen has a bit more of a grounded approach.
I for one, agreed with Sister Jen, my girl. She
was basically like, fuck that. Yeah, should you be taking
this risk or is Tula pushing you into it? Because
Tula's allegiance is more to the sisterhood than it is
to you.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
All Right, I'm just gonna I'm going out on a limb,
and like, I do not trust Jen as far as
I can throw her.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
I really, yeah, no, I.

Speaker 4 (22:32):
Think she's a plant or that whole thing with her
like lying in the first episode or whatever. I'm very
sus on her. I did not expect her. If you
Volyya and your plans and Tula, that was a pretty
strong move for a position for an acolyte to take.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
In general, one of my criticisms of the show would
be that the Benny Jeserit and It's maybe is just
era appropriate, like that Benny Jeserit a more immature or
order at this point in time, but like that they
seem more volatile, that there's less discipline, and we know
from later from chapter House and Heretics that like there's
often schisms within the Sisterhood in terms of like what

(23:12):
people think the right direction is, and that's like a
very interesting part of the Benny Jzerit dynamic. But at
this point in time, all of the main characters seem
a little bit more high strung and emotionally like volatile
and not as in control as I imagine the Benny
Jazzerit being like the Benny Jeserit are meant to be
bloodless and inflappable and capable of these fairly ruthless, utilitarian

(23:37):
decision making schemes, and both the acolytes and the folks
running the show seem to be kind of figuring it
out as they go along, and there's a lot of
like quivering lip action as it relates to that figuring,
which seems a little out of character for Benny Jazerit
to me.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, in fairness. When the episode finished, HBO Max suggested,
I watched Dune, so I just threw it on and
started watching it, and like, Rebecca Ferguson is off the map. Yes, yeah,
she is like falling apart, and I get it. I
actually like it. I like the fact that she pulls
herself to They show her pulling herself together before she
walks in to talk to the Duke, so you can

(24:13):
see that she can exert control when she needs to.
But they haven't got it dial Dan, I think, is.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
That yeah, but you can trast that with after she
becomes a reverend mother in part two and she does sort.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Of like the bloodless, very stowic.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, like the like you know, we're just gonna get
this business done.

Speaker 4 (24:29):
All right, you got me there.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
But I don't know I would have, particularly from like
value or something like that. I would have I think
like a slightly more Charlotte ramplay deserved. There should be
some character in there who's just like our plans are
measured in millennia and like, yeah, whether or not this
kid lives or dies is really not the problem.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
And so in my opinion on that has always been like,
I think this is a just a challenge with a
translation from the page to the screen. Yeah, you can
have a very stoic, cold, distant character on the page
because we can be inside their head and still be
understand their emotions on the screen. If you just have
like a cardboard cutout of a character the whole time,

(25:06):
we're not react. You're not giving the actor anything to
work with, and you're not giving the audience anything to
read on the screen. So I think it's an inherent challenge.

Speaker 4 (25:14):
What if you just put their inner monologues as voiceover
there we go I could never go.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
H, I think you're onto something, So Benny Jesuit track,
it was like a bonus feature.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
All right.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Returning to our recap, what I find absolutely hilarious is
while Tula is preparing the Russick poison, one of Volia's
confidants comes in and she's like, he is the agony
still happening right? Just to get done?

Speaker 2 (25:43):
He's still doing the agony tonight, right?

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Are we still doing it? Or is it still on
the agenda?

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Like?

Speaker 1 (25:47):
I haven't gone.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Because I made meat loads right right?

Speaker 1 (25:50):
I made the meat loaf. I didn't get the calendar invite.
Where's the meat loaf going? And I found this really
interesting because I think it tells us a lot about
Vallia herself. Valia very much clearly a bit of a
control freak here, even someone as close to her as
her sister Tula, she does not trust to run things
and make the hard decisions, and she's left someone behind us.

(26:13):
It's sort of like a watcher and caretaker to make
sure things get done. In a following scene, we then
see Tula trying to get things done. She speaks with
Lilah and reinforces like, Lilah, this is your choice. I
want you to be the one who decides to do
the agony or not. But also, like.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Your mom might be, maybe you'll meet your mom.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Don't you want to meet your mom?

Speaker 2 (26:36):
This is one hundred percent your choice, but it is
also your one chance to see your dead mom. So
weigh that, uh huh in your general calculus, and yeah,
let's let me know what you decide. Chill either way,
no problem.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
Yeah, I mean it's an interesting position to put Tula in.
She obviously cares desperately about Lila, yes, but she also
knows that she quote unquote has to do that it
has to happen. So I felt like she was genuine.
I give her like maybe at least sixty forty or
maybe seventy percent innocent, maybe thirty percent tainted, I don't.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
Know, only thirty percent sending her to her death using
her dead mother.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
That's right, Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Only thirty percent emotional manipulation and blackmail exactly. I agree, though.
I also read Tula's emotional moments in this episode as genuine,
and I think she does care for Elilah, but she
has been sort of living under the thumb of her older,
much more colder sister for the last thirty plus years

(27:35):
and clearly knows what has to get done, and here
she is doing it. All right, guys, let's take a
quick ad break here as we do. We got to
pay our spice bills, but we'll be right back in
a little bit. Folks to continue our recap and keep
talking about doing prophecy. All right, welcome back everyone, Let's

(28:04):
continue talking about doing prophecy. Episode two, returning to Seleucias, Secundas,
Vallia arrives just in time to diffuse a very heated
confrontation between Havoco and to crit Chesy. Obviously, Rachesy has
learned about Desmond. He's demanding to meet the man who
killed a pru it. Havoco's trying to bluff his poorly

(28:24):
bluff his way out of this. Yeah, and how about
just when.

Speaker 4 (28:27):
The doors just pop open and she walks in.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
It's like a very mic drop moment, a pretty cool, very.

Speaker 4 (28:33):
Big entrance that she makes, and she like does a
quick hand signal to Richesi's Benajezra advisor, and he is
on the leash and on his way out the room,
like very strong.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Get him out of here, move this party outside. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, I do think this show is at its strongest
when we see very directly in scenes like this, the
Benny Jesuit pulling strings, pulling the strings of the very powerful.

Speaker 4 (28:56):
It's a little weird that like these guys can't figure
this out. Watch she shakes her hand and like the
guy gets pulled out.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, I have like what's her face?

Speaker 3 (29:03):
The ri chazy Betty jesuit like literally nods like okay,
you got it, Like it's not like it's not as
her subtle hand signal back for yes is nodding.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Directly at her right. I don't know. I don't know
if you need Prano Bindu training to decipher that and
the meaning behind that one. Yeah, but you know it's
still fun to see them, yeah, you know, use their
special powers.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
I do agree. As much as I like seeing the
Benny Jesuit pull the strings, Yeah, I would like some
pushback as well. I'd like some nuance there. Yeah, and
we get a little bit. I mean, the Emperor's like,
was Kasha lying to me? Falia? Did you tell Kasha
to lie to me? There's a bit of questioning, but yeah,
all of these men in charge do seem to just
be going along with what their advisors are telling them.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
This is interesting though, when she says that she wants
to When Balio says that she wants to interview Desmond, yes,
the Emperor initially says no, and the Empress says.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
No, why don't you go ahead?

Speaker 4 (29:57):
And let her interview. Yeah, and he's like, oh, yeah,
she likes debate or whatever.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
So like she likes debate, the debate team.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
She did debate back in you know, finishing school, Empire,
finishing school, she was a Lincoln.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Douglas champion, And that's her viewpoint on the whole thing.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
But in my opinion, the Empress has been giving big
warning red lights, big big.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah Lady Macbeth vibes.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
So do you think her take was that Desmond would
just deal with her, like putting her in front of
Desmond would allow her to get taken out.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
I think I agree that I'm getting major vibes, weird
vibes from the Empress. I think this was her chance
to learn more about Desmond. I think she very much
wants to use Desmond. But again, if you've never shot
a gun and someone's like, you want a loaded gun,
she's maybe wanting someone to just check that the safety

(30:52):
is still on before she picks up the gun. Right,
she wants, perhaps Volia to do a bit of a
gut check on Desmond.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, I think that's right.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
I write it as like, let's see what this thing
can do, Like we got this guy, like we've got
this child toaster, Let's see, you know what he can
do against the Benny juzzer with truth there?

Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yeah, like find out what else it might be useful.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Like it goes along with the general theme, which is
best example fight in this episode of this it's not
the spice azing but the Rosac poisoning agony, which is
like that crisis is what's necessary to bring about change. Yes,
and so that's why the poison brings out these special
abilities and people because it puts them through this crisis.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
And she's similarly like.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Trying to provoke a crisis by seeing what happens when
she puts this kind of untested weapon with the Mother Superior,
and she says, oh, it's not every day we get
the Mother superioror it's like, let's see what kind of
trouble we can get into.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Here, right, Ken Desmond danced toe to toe with the
best of the best. Yeah, the Mother Superior.

Speaker 4 (31:48):
She has not had any beg training, right, the Empress,
not that I know of.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Okay, certainly not in the books either. Yeah, but she
does seem to be giving off some religious fives. Later
on in the episode, she like ask Desmond if he's
a price you don't just like go around asking people
whether their profits unless you already have something religious in mind.
So I agree there's a big question mark about the
Empress till that I think we will learn more about. Well,
let's go to the interview itself. Vollia interviews Desmond. They

(32:17):
do a bit of shit, talking back and forth for
a little bit, and ultimately Desmond once again confesses that
he has killed pruing. He loves it.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
He loves confessing.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
He loves to confess.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Honestly, he can't wait to confess, Like, my guy, can
you wait. It's like, look, can you plead the fifth verse?
I burn kids with my eyes. That's my thing. His
lawyers like, God, damn it, stop.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Kink shaming me. That is just what I do.

Speaker 4 (32:41):
I saw one of the showrunners say that the specifically
the way they what they like about him is that
that's his thing. He just tells the truth and he
is moving forward, which I think is an interesting idea.
And Jason, to what you were saying earlier of Herbert
putting stuff out there for people to see, it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
I think that's a strong point age because in a world,
in an imperium where lies are a major currency. Here
is a man who comes in and keeps saying the
uncomfortable right truth about killing children out loud, right, and
I think that that makes them quite dangerous but also
quite attractive, as we'll see with the Emperor and Empress
wanting to utilize him.

Speaker 4 (33:16):
But he's not. He doesn't have a positive vision that
he's communicating for what the imp He says, he's a
soldier of the Imperium. He's working only for the Imperium.
But it's not clear that, like Kieran, we have a
sense is motivated by.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Some ideological ideals.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
Yeah, there's inequity that needs to be addressed, but we
don't get that sense from Desmond that this is like
a crusade for him for a reason.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Right right, he's the wild card friend.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
It's almost as if Desmond is has got some underlying
programming per se that like says, oh, like he's meant
to serve the imperium. And if that means that everyone
needs to be turned into a paper clip in order
to better serve the efficiency of the imperium, like that
is how he will execute the commands.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, well, he also admits, in addition to admitting to
killing Pruitt. He admits to killing Kasha as well. Yeah,
mostly right, yeah, mostly.

Speaker 4 (34:09):
He didn't say yes, I killed her, but he did say,
like I found her wanting or whatever what. I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
Exactly she had to go.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
He kind of talked around, yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
But you definitely got the impression. Yes, But I thought
that was an interesting choice that he didn't. As much
as he loves saying.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
It right, he was a little more circumspect with that one.
He also tells Valia that Shai Hallud has taken his eye,
the eye that we keep getting like close ups on
and camera, and given him the power to see things
that even you, Valia Harken in Mother Superior cannot see.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Right.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
So obviously that makes us think of quez Asterak, the
idea that he can go to the place where they're
afraid to look. Yeah, and so right, you're getting us,
You're putting the hooks in, right.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
A lot of fun little breadcrumbs like that for Dune
fans to pick up on throughout these episodes. Unfortunately, I
guess confessing to multiple murders doesn't really have any consequences
here for our guy Desmond. No, because by this point,
the Emperor and Empress are much more interested in using
him as a political weapon against we're chasing in particular,

(35:10):
but I'm sure other enemies they have as well.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yes, well we know they're short on weapons, Like we
know these Carinos are somehow in powered just right, not
how many ships or anything.

Speaker 5 (35:18):
Like.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
All they've got is this like amazing architecture. So then
now they've got Now they've got a guy who can
barbecue people from across the galaxy.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
Like all right, well that's gotta be good for something. Yeah,
we're just trying to rub two sticks together and you.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Know, make a fire. You're like, you know, like see
what we can get done.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
That's a great point.

Speaker 4 (35:35):
These guys are going to rule this the Imperium for
ten thousand years.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
They're at a weak point right now.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
They've become too reliant on influence from outside activist groups
and they need to really reconfigure how they're thinking about
the administration of their state.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Certainly. Well, meanwhile, we cut to here into Treadees doing
some like three D scanning for like a school project.
I'm sure in the palace we also hear in the
back garn Constantine getting yelled at, which I thought was hilarious.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (36:03):
I didn't get it until I put the subtitles on.
I was like, why don't you stop talking? Go play
your ballast?

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah, right, go to your room.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
I did like that detail. We cut from Kieran doing
his three D scanning back to what I think is
the Club Barbara on the first episode Club, and here
he is meeting with his fellow rebels. As we come
to learn, he is part of a larger rebel plot
and they are seemingly working against the Carinos or the

(36:36):
great Houses, the lands Ride in general, people in power.
I guess in general, their mission statement seems quite vague.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
I will say, yeah, this is where when I was
reading your very helpful show rundown of what was going on,
I was like, okay, thank you for letting me know
what was going on in this scene. Because, and this
is one of my other criticisms of the show, is
that I love the set and setting.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
I love the doomedness of it.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
I think it's very faithful to like Dune vibes, both
in production design and palace intrigueness of it all. I
think there's cool, mysterious hooks in it. I think some
of the actual writing is a little bit clunky or
opaque are I think just from a dialogue perspective, it
doesn't really sing in any particular way. It's very serviceable,
but it often devolves into exposition theater of like, oh,

(37:21):
here comes that guy who's descended from Like in this scene,
it's like he's literally descended from a new traders who.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
Fought against a little buddy. It's like, all right, great,
well you could have put that on a title guard
or something, mean, you know, like you had.

Speaker 4 (37:32):
Us on a tradees like we were in.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, we know who they are. I agree.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
I think what the motivation of this group is who
you know meets at the only bar on Solucis Secundas
repeatedly it's a very hot bar that to me was
not drawing me in.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
Well, okay, listen two things. First of all, when the
guy started talking about the guy that was there opening
the briefcase or whatever looking at it. When he's like,
we got to take this rebellion public, I was like, oh, okay,
So the note they got with somebody you know two
years ago, three years ago, they're working on the show
and and and Or's happening, and they're like, okay, yea, yeah,
this is the greatest thing. Ever, how do we shoehorn

(38:08):
and or in here?

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (38:10):
Then the second was there was a question last week
for the first episode of why is there such a
big deal with this Fremen character that's working in the bar.
She's got the blue on blue eyes. But she's a
named cast member, so we know we're going to see
her again, And here we see her as part of
the resistance, and then in the very next scene we
learned that she is in fact Sister Mikayla of the
Benejezer Order, who is helping to orchestrate this whole thing.

(38:31):
That's right, Yeah, which I will say, we went from
a scene that absolutely didn't work for me, this rebel scene,
this here in the trade scene. Jason, I agree with
all of your criticisms here about the writing. I think
you put it beautifully like the writing does not sing
at all in the scene.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
It's very clunky. It's all tell and practically no show.
We then cut to a scene that really worked for me, Yeah,
because we cut to then Volia meeting with Sister Mikayla
on a pretty cozy looking boat, and here we learn
that sister Mikayla was responsible for the attack that Desmond
survived on Aracus. So the Sisterhood is orchestrating things on

(39:08):
a Racus. They're pulling much bigger strings than we thought
from behind the scenes, right, And this whole plot that
Kiaran Atrades has wrapped up in is also just another
Sisterhood scheme that they're using to undermine the Emperor.

Speaker 5 (39:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
I think that was a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
And I like, I do like this.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
This is what I'm talking about with like the ruthlessness
of the Benny Jeser was like, well, look, we're gonna
have to give him something. It's like, all right, we'll
give him this a trading sword master. I really like that,
just like throw him over, Like that's fun. And I
think to Age's point, it does feel like an and or,
Like it gives me the and or fuzzies, because I'm like,
all right, it's like, you know, yeah, talk to me
about the Sunless space.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Just please, Like I just need I just need a
little hit to last me over until I Door season
two comes out.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
April of twenty five.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah, yeah, close.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
So far.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Oh man, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Well.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
We then cut to the spy himself, Kieran a trade's
he is sparring with the princess once again. Princess Yez
working through some grief and anger about Kasha's death, and
she shares with Kieran a traumatic kidnapping that has been
scrubbed from the history books because you don't want to
make the Karinas look bad. But it has a great name,

(40:17):
the Broken Chain, the Broken Chain rebellion. And she sort
of lays out I think for me again, a little
clunkily and on the nose, opaque writing here, but she
kind of lays out the thesis statement of the show.
It's all politics. We're all just pieces on the board
to be played in pursuit of power and spice.

Speaker 4 (40:36):
Did we mention this price?

Speaker 2 (40:38):
I wish she had said it exactly like that. I
wish it'd have been the ASMR space.

Speaker 4 (40:42):
Well, it's interesting because when we had last episode when
Kasha said when I first found you and you'd been
captive for years.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
And we were like, what is that about?

Speaker 4 (40:49):
What is that story? It is very clear here that
this was a Benejeza plot to have her be kidnapped
and then to have her be rescued, like this whole
thing has been completely set into motion controlled every step
of the way.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
And that's fun. That's what the Beg should be doing.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
They should be kidnapping royal princesses for plans that pay
off in twenty five years.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
That is their bread and butter.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
If they're not good at that, all they have left
is some fish soup recipes. I'm like, they don't really
have a lie going the meat loaf, Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
Salia's some questionable dinners back on Wallach nine.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
That's right, But she does.

Speaker 4 (41:23):
Inez does call it off with Kiri. He tries to
get close to her and she's like, look now, it
ain't happening.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
So that's right.

Speaker 4 (41:30):
That's some space. That's interesting to see how he develops.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
I also liked that in this scene we confirmed an
extra bit of lore about shields technology. The soft cheek
caress does pierce the shields.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, so you can have your shield on and still
be making out. That's great tonight.

Speaker 4 (41:48):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Meanwhile, while all of this is happening, Empress Natalia goes
to Desmond and asks him the question that perks my
ears up? Are you a prophet? Desmond Heart? His answer
is quite interesting. He says, I would have said no
in the past, but now I don't know. Clearly he's
had a bit of a rebirth as well, perhaps a
spiritual rebirth or a physical one. Still TBD on that,

(42:12):
and Natalia decides to free Desmond because it's time. It's
time to point the loaded gun at Duke for Chazy,
and that's exactly what we see happen in a couple
of scenes here Duke for Chesy once again confronting Havgo,
but this time Desmond makes an entrance and sort of
lightly cooks.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Him, puts him on defrost. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
I was like, oh, he's just as it was happening.
I was like, how are they gonna explain this? They're
just gonna kill the head of like a major house. Yeah,
And I was like, oh, okay, they're not gonna kill him,
They're just gonna toast the marshmallow a little bit here.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
I was like, is that easier to explain that? Yeah? Like,
my guy ended up getting Freddy Krueger a bit.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
I'm in the throne room and now is going to
show up at the next Lanzard meeting with a little
bit of the hound makeover.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
He's going to show up like Jay Leno and be like,
I fell down set of stairs exactly.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Bro, you didn't fall down stairs. I was staying out
of the Kinton. I'm a lay billionaire, was staying on
the kit in and I fell. I was taking a ramp.

Speaker 4 (43:13):
I fell and uh yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
It's very confusing how they think that's gonna work out.
But I do think it's sort of there, like, well,
you know, now we've got this guy, we can get
away with stuff that we didn't before.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
They feel emboldened.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
They are emboldened, certainly, I just don't feel like they
should be that bold.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
That's my take. Fundamentally. It just doesn't feel like it's
that much of a game changing power. I mean, maybe
if you can nuke people from across the galaxy that
that's actually pretty good.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
That's what he can do.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, and perhaps that's what he should have done, you know,
like why play your trump card in a way where
Duke for Chazy's just gonna go to the Landstrode and
be like, hey, he's got like a he's got like
a bluetooth like.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Rose, he's got this remote activated laser cooker. Not good.
You can use it against you too.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
If the guy in the trench code walks into the room.
You gotta leave get it exactly. Yeah, it's a questionable
political move, and I can maybe come to terms with
it by just writing it off as like Havoco is
not the most politically savvy emperor, right.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
And I think he likes feeling.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
I think he's felt so unempowered, he's felt so weak
and dependent on that he's willing to just like run
with it. And like, you know, he's kind of been
worked into a corner now by his wife and you know,
everything else. So it's like, all right, I guess we're
gonna run with it. It is like kind of a big
beast situation.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Totally all right. Returning to Wallach nine, we see what
I think is actually my favorite sequence of this episode. Yes,
Lilah undergoes the agony. I thought, this is this is incredible,
this is top.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
This is what can make a series. This scene of
the other memory.

Speaker 4 (44:41):
Is hold on before we even get to it, just
like I poisons that location where they're doing it. She
goes to caress her, but then takes her head and
lays her down. All of the acolytes are watching, and
then the language all that matters is the light for
this poison. There is no antidote. I was like, hell, yes,
let's yes.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, it's good.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yes, it was good.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
I think you're right to call out the setting because
it does do this fun thing that like Dune does well,
which is this combination of ritual and science right where
like it looks like a laboratory, but they're doing like
a religious ceremony of some sort. That combination is very
fun and very on brand for the universe. And we've
just never seen this, like, this isn't the Spice agony,

(45:25):
and this is canonical, Like they do not always make
reverend mothers using the Spice essence, like they use other
forms of agony and treatments that they just need to
provoke some kind of interior crisis. But we've never we've
really never seen this. Even in Villano's Dune, we don't
get the interior life of what the contact with other
memory looks like. So it's a new development for Dune heads.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, and I think appropriately horror coded. Yeah, you know,
appropriately a difficult thing to undergo. Yeah, and it explains
so much about how the Benny Jesuit will operate for
the next ten thousand years in terms of abomination, in
terms of how delicate they are with other memory and
the use of it. I think it shows us like,

(46:09):
oh yeah, if I underwent this, I too would be
very careful around this sort of superpower. It's horrifying stuff.

Speaker 4 (46:17):
I also just want to call out briefly, there hasn't
been consistency in how other memory works over the course
of the series.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
That's true within Herbert as well.

Speaker 4 (46:26):
Yeah, like initially it was like reverend mothers would share
with each other. In the later books, like at the
moment of death, they connect and then they pass over
their essentially their consciousness as opposed to just having the
memory or you have in God Emperor, like someone is
reliving memories of being on Canterbury Tales like walking.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
So like my question is it's unclear.

Speaker 4 (46:48):
Yeah, well, if you are accessing your genetic memory, but
sometimes the person who shows up at the end of
this episode in other memory, their reactions were based on
having been betrayed, which was something that happened after they
had passed on their genetic material. Yes, so is the
concept here that consciousness is something that transcends time and space,

(47:11):
and that access through genetic memory is what allows you
to basically get a beacon to connect to that consciousness
which still exists in some way.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
Or there's a simulacrum of that person's consciousness that persists
in this like the memory space. It's not actually like
the real person, but it's the matrix uploaded version of
that person that like has like agentic will as though
they were that person.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
But abu, where is.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
That running aws? Or like where is that?

Speaker 1 (47:37):
And that's the thing which cloud server is. We're all
where we're uploading.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
You know.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
It's that Black Mirror episode where they upload all the
after people die and they upload the consciousness. Right, yeah, yeah,
there is no law answer to this, right, I think, Jason,
you just said it. Frank Herbert himself just did whatever
he wanted with other memories as far as like telling
his stories. I don't think he nailed down exactly how
other memory worked. It continued to evolve and change in
every book. There's other examples. There's a certain character that

(48:05):
returns to Children of Dune for folks who know that
comes back via other memory and is like doing stuff
that like practically makes no sense for another memory to do.
I think the show, at least for me, gets a
free lore pass to use other memory how they want
in this instance, and Age, you're right, we are getting
this like we're tapping into Dorote who comes back and

(48:26):
takes over Lila in like a truly horrific moment. Dude,
got me?

Speaker 4 (48:29):
That got me?

Speaker 1 (48:29):
That was great. Yeah, to see abomination in that way
was and huge props to the actor as well.

Speaker 4 (48:36):
And the visual effects of the dead face and stuff
like that.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Was really amazing stuff. But yeah, they really are sort
of like they're on who Wants to be a Millionaire
and they're just dialing in Riquella for help on the
million dollar question. And is that how Frank Kerbert intended
other memories to work. We don't know. I think it's
quite elusive and the lore never quite nails it down.
But it was still really fun to see here. And
I think the interpretation of all these spooky personas closing

(49:03):
in on you and you perhaps losing yourself within them
as they drown you. I thought it was really well done.

Speaker 4 (49:09):
Yea Tula saying that they wake up hungry was amazing. Yes,
that was scary, But then Rackuella's message, the key to
the reckoning is one born twice once in blood once
in Spice, a revenant full of scars, a weapon of
war on a path too short.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Yeah, this made me think doctor SEUs could never honestly.

Speaker 4 (49:27):
Yeah, but this read Paul to me, right, like he
he did not take the Golden Path. So like that
was how I was looking at it.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Well, one born twice is very hard to read. Is
not Gola related, right, I mean, like that is certainly
very Gola coded.

Speaker 4 (49:44):
No born the second born in Spice? Is the water life?
Is Paul taking the water of life?

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (49:48):
The coma scene perhaps, yeah? Yeah, maybe again vague, it's fair,
It's fair. Gola seems realistic. I think you could transplant
this on practically anyone, you know, Desmond, Yeah, for sure,
which maybe is the obvious red herring that the show
is wanting you to guess. But yes, Paul, certainly, I
think is a strong candidate. Another character after Paul, I

(50:08):
think is perhaps a great candidate as well. I will say,
I think the thing that this maybe shoots down is
like Omnius ai overlord, because like that, to me, is
not a character who is born in blood once and
then reborn in.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Spice, right, definitely not born in blood.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
So this to me, at least is pointing towards a
person and perhaps not a robot.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
I would like it not to be in a Trade's
ten thousand years from now. Like similarly, you know, I
would like it not to be somehow Paul Trade's returned.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
I would like it to be something that's like a
new bit of lore.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
And like I kind of agree that Desmond feels like
a head fake, like he's the obvious one right now,
but I would like it to be something else. But yeah,
it's fun. We get a prophecy. The name of the
show is like and it rhymes. It's a classic one.
I like that were in this dark, ghosty afterlife insane

(51:04):
asylum with their melty faces or whatever.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
It's like, all right when we pass this message on.
The important thing is that it's in rhyming couplets.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Yes, like we've got we've got Yeah, We've got to
make sure we've got a good meter.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
Riquello's other memory is like real bored and coming up
with a number of different rounds. She's got like a
notepad with scratched out, so it was.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Like, we're not doing it as a limerick for Christ's sake,
Like how many times I have.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
To tell you I am a big pentameter sixteen sixty nine.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
Yeah, but then that ancestor from sixteen sixty nine is no,
we gotta have it.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
This is the I A bet that. All right, Let's
wrap up this summary with the final scene, which, oh oh,
this was juicy. In our final scene of episode two,
Valia returns to the palace, only to be confronted by Desmond,
who lets her know that she's been laid off. This
is a tough way to leave your job.

Speaker 4 (51:55):
She's not extremely hardcore.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Your replacement is the one who tells who hands you
the pink slip and is like, you're laid off today.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Your email no longer worries.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Yeah, her slack account has been new to deactivated. A
tough day for Volley in the office. Desmond is like, look,
the Emperor doesn't trust you and the Sisterhood anymore. It's
all me, all the time now, baby, and Vollo puls
her trump card, the thing that she came up with
that we know that she invented the voice. She tries
to pull another Dorotea on Desmond and orders him to

(52:25):
remove the knife from his jacket, hold it to his throat,
drive it into his throat and seemingly he's able to
resist it, or maybe he's just playing along and duping
her on purpose, but we see him completely resist the voice. Valia,
shaken to her core, doesn't know what to do in
this moment, and Desmond does have a zinger for her

(52:46):
because he's like, your worst fear is to speak and
not be heard, which I thought was quite poignant.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
Well yeah, not that they wouldn't get, not that they
wouldn't hear you, but that they would hear you and
just and just not care.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
Yes, which takes even further, you know, for an institution
whose entire purpose is to influence.

Speaker 4 (53:07):
And there were high fives in the writer's room that day.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
I will tell you we got one on that one. Yeah, yeah, Yeah,
it was good.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
This was a great scene to end on I think.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
Super strong, super strong.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
Yeah, it made me very excited for the like, But
like I had my critiques, Like I was confessed in
the first half of this episode, I sort of had
my doubts about episode one as well, where I was like, Okay,
it's a lot of setup, Like we're getting a lot
of set up and I don't know really what it's
point to. They're kind of making a lot of bets.
We'll see what they can pay off. And then this
episode two is like, we're still getting a lot of

(53:39):
set up. I don't really know what we're pointing at yet.
And then the second half getting the scene of other
memory is like enough to lock me into this series
for the whole thing. And then this you know, oh,
actually I've got the voice combo breaker and you're gonna
have to like take You're gonna have to take that
power pack to the shop and see if you can
work on another version. That was real strong. So I

(53:59):
was very excited about the second half of the episode went.

Speaker 4 (54:02):
But ABU, if you're flying in from Wallach nine to
like set things right, maybe don't take off for four
to six hours to go meet your secret agent on
the nice boat while everything is happening and then show
up in the middle of the night and you're already right,
Maybe stick around.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
Totally, Delegate, delegate, delegate right, like exactly, the mother Superior
be in the most important spot, which is right next
to the emperor, you know, send somebody else to meet Mikayla.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
Yes, she does, bring dear Theodosia with her back to
Solici Sekonda's that's right, one of the accolades for no
particular reason in this episode, well, just a bond.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
But like I like this character. I like this Theodosia character,
so I'm.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
Interested to see. I think there's more to come. I
think that this was a setup for potential stuff in
episode three. Perhaps, well let's take another quick breather, guys
and toss to an ad break. But we'll be right
back with our final thoughts, and maybe we'll tap into
presciens and predict what we might see in the future episodes.

Speaker 5 (55:01):
We'll see you in a minute.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
All right, we're back, Jason h. This has been such
an incredible conversation. I've loved geeking out with the two
of you. To wrap up today, I'm very curious zooming
out big picture thoughts were now two episodes into a
six episode first season of Dune Prophecy. Where are you
at with this show and where do you think we're headed?

Speaker 4 (55:35):
I think the show is firing now. I'm stoked to
see how it's going to develop. It's going to be
super interesting. Now we're going to jump back right and
see young Valia and her story with her family and
how she got going and I actually think the young
actresses that are playing in those early days with Raquela,
I think that is a part I would have almost
liked for them to have just started there and rolled

(55:56):
through so that we were established with them from the beginning.
So yeah, I can't wait to see what that turn is.
I'm also super curious, like in Denise World, we've never
met the Tilaxu, we've never met the Ixians, we haven't
seen navigators. So I'm curious if there's any stuff that
they're gonna be able to drop here or whether they
just like WB like holding them in check. So I'm

(56:20):
just curious to see how that develops and as they
just get more more confident and roll through the season.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
It is interesting we've gotten through the first act I
guess of the show, and you know, we've seen sort
of the limits of like the main.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Pieces on the board.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
I don't know if, given like the relative limited run
of the show, if they have a lot of leeway
to start bringing in a lot more different pieces in
terms of yeah, you know, and like okay, and now
the Ixians are here now, like the tile Laxu. You know,
it's like it will require a lot more sort of
exposition to start bringing that in, and I'm loathed for
them to do that because i think they've got some
cool pieces on right on the board right now. And

(56:55):
I like the structure of this where it's kind of
unclear who the protagonist of this show is at this point. Yeah,
you know, who are you actually four on this show?

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah? Like, who are you actually hoping to succeed? And
it's like they.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
Killed off one of the people that was maybe a
cannon for that in this episode, and so I'm interested
to see who end up who ends up being the
audience proxy most closely in the next couple episodes.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
I think you can make an argument for five or
six different characters at this point.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
Well, spoiler, Lilah is still alive. Right in the Coming Attractions,
they showed Lilah like in some sort of tank or something.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Oh they tanked her.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Yes, I believe she's in some sort of coma based
on the preview thing that they showed.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
Okay, all right, right, so maybe she'll find her way back.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
I'm rooting for her then, But I do agree. I
think one of my central criticisms so far, as much
as I'm enjoying the show, I'm still feeling a little
emotionally lost right right, Like who am I supposed to
invest myself?

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Connect to who am I supposed to connect to most?
And I would have hoped that by the time we
were at the end of this first act again a
very short season where a third of the way through
it already with episodes one and two. I would have
hoped by now that I the viewer would have known
who I've been rooted for.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
Yeah, because I'm deminitely not rooting for these like rebel
right weirdos, like they seem like clowns like they do. Yeah,
I'm gonna need I'm gonna need someone else to be
four than them.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
And Mark Strong is fun to watch, but like, am
I rooting for these seems terrible?

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Yeah, we don't want them to do well.

Speaker 3 (58:26):
Valia like kind of Vala seems like actually might just
be the antagonist of the show, like it might be
the one that has to like might have to go
away because she's just done a bit too much murder.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah, so it's hard to know who we're supposed.

Speaker 3 (58:38):
To be for in this And like Tula, like going
back to the beginning of our conversation, like reads as
like the nice cop, Benny juzzer it who has more
interest in still Acab exactly.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
I'm not really I'm not really buying it. Like I
think she might be I think she might be sus too.
So yeah, hard to say who we're for, hard to
say who we're emotionally invested in.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Yeah, I like he know I'm with ing z.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
Yeah, I do too, she's my ride or I I agree.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Yeah, I really hope that in the third episode things
start to coalesce. Like Jason, to your point, adding more
things now I think would be a bad idea because
of the shorts run time. I think actually more focus
is what's needed now, Like I would like thanks to
coals together and for a forward thrust.

Speaker 4 (59:21):
But somebody's behind Desmond, Yes, right, that's the thing. It's
not just I don't think Shai Halud chose Desmond and
turned him into something. I think that's I think that's
our story that we have. But I think someone else
is doing something for Desmond, and we don't know who
that is yet, gotcha. So that's what I'm waiting to see.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Right, and whether that's till till I lack you Exian,
I suppose that's whatever Guild whoever that might be.

Speaker 4 (59:48):
We'll find out, We'll find out.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
I'm excited.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna I'm definitely gonna watch it if
you convince me. Yeah, Well, last thirty minutes of this
one convinced me that I was excited for the show,
which was yes, which was great.

Speaker 4 (59:58):
It's for us, It is for the three of us
for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):
I don't know about anybody else, but I mean that is.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
I mean maybe we could if you have, like who's
watching this show? Like is this working for each meal?

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Like cause it's it is a deeply nerdy show like
this one's even compared to like the Expanse or something.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
The Expanse has.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
A bit more of like a whizbang kind of space
adventure aspect to it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
It's got it's got sort of like a Western vibe
to it that I think might attract to Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
Maybe Foundation is like the closest analog for this one,
where it is like this pretty cerebral, intricate, galaxy spanning
like generational, weird kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
I think that's a great question. I will be very
interested to see at the end of a six episode run,
are they stoked where this show lands, yeah, and who
it's captured, right, Like, I don't necessarily have I'm obviously
known among my friends and family as the as the
Dune guy, So I don't really have like any aunts
or moms texting me questions about Testamond, you know, which

(01:01:00):
is usually a good barometer, right, like for shows that
are really popping into the mainstream. Yes, I will get
texts from like weird people I don't talk to, you know,
family members, is what I mean by that. Yeah, but
family members, Like what's happening in House of Dragon right now?
Can you explain it?

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Yes, And I haven't gotten it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
It's not there. It's not doing House of Dragons numbers
for sure, Yeah, for sure, for sure some penguin people
may be asking, but.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Yeah, exactly. Well, Jason h. This has been so lovely.
I want to give you both space here at the
end of the episode to sort of tell the X
ray Vision listeners where they can find you and your
work online and what you're up to and plug anything
you want to share.

Speaker 4 (01:01:38):
Well, definitely check out the podcast. So we have done
two hundred and twenty three episodes over the last four years.
We get into all of your favorite movies. We've done
all the Dune books, the first six books that Frank wrote,
and we have guests every single week. I boo, we
got to get you on the pod. Absolutely, I would
love to. We just had Rosy on last month for Twilight.

(01:02:00):
We had Rosie on for Chronicles of Riddick. We had
Jason and Rosie on for X Men two thousand and
so it's just we have a great time and we
get deep into the movies you love, so come check
it out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
I think we started off as a Dune podcast during
the pandemic, So if you go back to the earliest
run of the show and you're into Dune, you can
find literally hours and hours on Dune stuff. And then
because the movie got pushed and we just kept and
we found like a community of people were interested in
listening to the pod. We just kept doing things that
we liked, and that for me was like, I want

(01:02:32):
to cover war games. It's like, we what does that
have to do with Dune? Absolutely nothing that tries to
destroy the world. And so we just started doing movies
that we liked, mostly from our childhood, and it's been
really fun and we have like you know, discord with
people that we hang out with online. And it's I
think one of the reasons we call the podcast escape patches,
both because the movies represent, you know, an escape from

(01:02:53):
everyday life, but the community, the online community that we
founded proved to be a nice escape patch from the
dominant paradigm of social media that was descending into madness
over the last couple of years, and it's proven to
be a nice respite from the broader discourse.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
As I say, you're.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Here, that's wonderful. And we'll have links to all that
stuff in the show notes below, folks, so definitely check
out Jason n H's work. On tomorrow's very thankful episode
of X ray Vision, Jason and Rosie will be sharing
their favorite Thanksgiving movies and asking the very important and
confounding question what even is a Thanksgiving movie? And then

(01:03:30):
on Friday's episode, Joelle and Carmen are beginning their journey
into the Robert Eggers cinematic universe with a deep dive
into which and they will be working through the Robert
Eggers movie catalog leading up to Nos Faratu on Christmas.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Incredible, very excited for that one.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Oh yeah, that's it. For the episode. Thanks so much
for listening everyone, Bye, Thank you, Jason nho.

Speaker 6 (01:03:56):
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Gisubson and Rosie
Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive
producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer
is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent and
Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez. Special

(01:04:18):
thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Laude, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi

Speaker 5 (01:04:23):
Our discolld Moderata