February 22, 2022 • 47 mins
Hillary has given—and gotten—a lot of advice over the years. On today’s episode, she talks with two of her favorite advice givers about their approach to this sometimes delicate and often consequential enterprise. First, we hear from author and columnist Cheryl Strayed about how the stories of others can help us heal and grow. Then, New York-based political consultant Luis Miranda, Jr., who advised Hillary on her first historic run for U.S. Senate, talks about the challenges of helping politicians (and his own children) make strategic decisions.
Bios:
Cheryl Strayed is the author of the #1 New York Times best-selling memoir Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail. She’s written her “Dear Sugar” advice column for over a decade. It’s now available through a subscription newsletter.
Born and raised in Puerto Rico, Luis Miranda, Jr. is a longtime Democratic political strategist and activist for Latino causes. He is a founding partner at the MirRam Group, a political consulting firm based in New York, and is the father of famed composer and actor Lin Manuel-Miranda. In October of 2020, HBO released Siempre, Luis, a documentary following his work.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both.
You know, I've given a lot of advice over the years,
and I've also sought and received a lot of advice,
some of it better than others. But when it came
to launching my career running for the Senate in New York,
(00:24):
one person whose advice everyone told me to seek out
was that of Luise Miranda. A venerated political consultant. Louise
has given invaluable guidance to many New York candidates and
politicians over the years, including me as well here later
(00:47):
in this episode. He's also advised his son, the award
winning composer, lyricist, actor, producer, and director Lynn Manuel Miranda.
But when it comes to seeking advice on a more
personal level, I know I'm not alone and thinking, there's
no one quite like Cheryl Strade, And that's where we
(01:10):
start today's episode. Cheryl Strade is an acclaimed author, best
known for her stunning and brutally honest memoir Wild From
Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, later made
into a hit film starring Reese Witherspoon in Cheryl began
(01:30):
anonymously writing the Dear Sugar advice column under the pseudonym Sugar.
Since then, the column developed a loyal following and has
had several lives, including as a podcast. It went on
hiatus for a while, but now she's brought it back
as a newsletter, which is good news to fans of
(01:51):
Cheryl's like I am. I've had the pleasure of getting
to know her, spending time first together during my campaign
for president, and then she's interviewed me about my books,
and I've been a guest on her podcast. I always
love talking with Cheryl, and I was so delighted to
have the chance to now interview her for this podcast.
(02:14):
I began by asking Cheryl how things have been for
her and her family at home in Portland, Oregon over
the many, many months of this pandemic. To be honest,
I'm not alone in saying that these last couple of
years have been difficult ones in in my life and
my family's life. We're doing okay, but I have a
(02:35):
son and a daughter who are a junior and a
sophomore in high school, and it's been hard. I think
this pandemic has been especially difficult for teenagers people in
the early twenties. Of course, people who are older as well,
you know the terrible health risks that they've faced in
this pandemic. But teenagers socially mental health has been a struggle.
(02:56):
And I think, as we all know, adolescence is always
a difficul whole time, but it is a time when
you want to be with your peers and socializing and
having fun, and the pandemic has put a little crimp
in that, right. I have to say, I, for one,
was really pleased when you brought back the Dear Sugar
column last year after a couple of years hiatus as
(03:20):
a newsletter. What went into that decision about bringing back
the opportunity for you to hear from people and and
try to give some advice, right, So you know the
reason I brought it back, Really it goes back to
this essential belief that I have, and that is that
stories save us, the literature specifically, but are in general,
(03:44):
is the thing that allows us to see ourselves most clearly.
It tells us that we can go on. It tells
us that that we can endure suffering. It tell us
us that we can triumph, we can lose, we can
love that these experiences that we have, these struggles have,
they are universal and timeless, and so as a writer,
(04:04):
I have always felt that my mission my work in
an interesting way, not so unlike yours. You've spent your
lifetime as a public servant trying to make the world
a better place, make people's lives better. I've done that too,
in a very different way through writing. And what I
try to do is to remind us all of our
(04:25):
humanity that the universal threads that connect us. And of course,
in the Deer Sugar Advice column, I do that very
specifically because there is one person saying help, I'm struggling.
I can't go on. And what I try to do
is not just give advice. Anyone who reads the Deer
Sugar column knows that I don't just say Okay, do this,
(04:46):
this and this. What I say is, let us think
deeply about the question you're asking me. And so I
really just engage with people's struggles rather than telling them
what to do. And and I hope that that offers
some illuminations, consolation, something for them to hold onto so
they can't take that next step forward. Well, I think
(05:08):
that's the best kind of advice that anybody can give
to try to really understand in a radically empathetic way
what is going on, and the way that you do
it through storytelling really locates the advice in a broader
(05:29):
context so that it's not just the person writing into
you saying I'm a nurse and I have a teenager
and I've never been so tired or despairing, or in
a recent column where somebody said, you know, I'm estranged
from my mother, should I send her a birthday card?
I mean the way that you answer, the way you
weave in your own experiences, the way that you have
(05:53):
allusions to literature, to other more universal stories. It really
is a un gift. Cheryl. You are such a compelling writer.
Thank you, And then to put yourself, you know, in
the position now for over ten years of giving people
advice must have started off feeling kind of scary, like,
(06:16):
you know, did you wonder when you were asked to
pick up this column, how can I give advice? Or
I'm the one needing advice? Which I think, of course
that was the first thing I thought, is who am I,
you know, to be giving advice? Which I think is
always the person you want to go to for advice
because the person who thinks that they have all the
(06:37):
answers is the person who you're probably not going to
listen to. Right. We don't tend to enjoy being lectured
or feeling inferior to somebody. We tend to seek counsel
from somebody who they're down there. I always say I'm
down in the muck with the people who seek advice
from me. And so I think of myself as someone
(06:58):
as a writer who's job is to engage in a
really deep, deep, profound way with the truth and not
just to sit around and say, wow, this is what
I think or this is how I feel, but really
dig more deeply into the sort of the questions that
sit below the questions that have been posed to me.
That's a really important point, Yeah, because when someone asks
(07:20):
you something, it's often not really what they're asking you,
isn't it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, even just that question
that you decided, where a woman who's estranged from her
mother for good reasons, should I send her a birthday
card or not? You know, that's the question you think
you have for me. But what you're really grappling with
is how are you going to live with this? This gigantic,
(07:45):
sad decision that you've had to make to strange yourself
from this person who is supposed to be the closest
relationship of your life. Right And so it's a big question.
And what I often try to get people to do
is really grapple with the bigger questions. Right. Well, the
way that you answered that particular question was especially meaningful
(08:06):
because you talked about your own estrangement from your father,
and it happened to be around the time that he
passed away, after you had not had any contact with
him for many years. And just you're sharing what it
meant to have to cut off contact with your own father.
(08:26):
And you have a line in there which I was
so struck by you were sad because you weren't sad.
You had, in effect kind of made your peace with
not having a relationship with him. You gave permission to
not just the person seeking the advice, but all of
us who were reading that column to think about our
(08:47):
own lives, to think about our own relationships. And you know,
I I was really sad when my father died, in
part because I really had a difficult experience and connecting
with him emotionally. You know, he was like the typical,
you know, product of the Great Depression. He was a
(09:08):
guy's guy who played football at Penn State, and then
you know, in World War Two he was a chief
petty officer training you know, young men to go off
to fight in the Pacific. And there was a side
to him that I saw glimpses of which was really sensitive,
more emotionally astute than he seemed to be in most
(09:29):
of his daily interactions. And I, you know, I loved
him and I was grateful to him, but there was
ambivalence about, Oh, wouldn't it have been terrific if we
could have really connected, like you know, we could have
had so much more than we were capable of having,
And that your column just made me think about that, uh,
(09:51):
and made me reflect back on, you know, what I
did have, for which I was very grateful me. One
of my favorite memories of my father is even when
I was a little girl and I would I would
say to him, would you will you always love me?
And he'd say, oh, yes, And I'd say will you
love me if I murder somebody? He'd say, well, I
wouldn't like what you did, but I would love you.
(10:12):
And you know that was an interesting kind of basic
way of saying, I will unconditionally love you, but I
won't always like what you do. So even a column
that wasn't directly connected with my own life caused me
to think about, you know, my own father. Oh. I
love hearing that. Hillary, and I do believe that when
(10:34):
we tell the truth about our lives, about what it's
like to be a daughter or a son, or a parent,
or a spouse or you know, fill in the blank,
when we really are honest about it, all kinds of
people will see themselves in us, even if their story
isn't an exact parallel or corollary. And I think that,
you know, one of the things you point out when
(10:56):
I said I was sad about not being sad, you know,
I spent years of my life grieving my dad. I
have and everyone out there who's listening to these words
right now, or who read that column, who's who's had
to let somebody go who they loved to know what
it feels like to actually really say I grieve you,
(11:17):
and I release you from my life, even though you
will go on living. You know, that's a big thing
to do. And I love knowing when I write those
words that people out there are helped by them, not
just the person who wrote me the letter. And then
other people like you say, well, I identify with aspects
of what she just said. In a sense, you do
have a front row seat on our collective psyche. And
(11:41):
thinking about when you first started the Deer Sugar column
ten years ago and then you took the hiatus, have
the problems changed. Have people's concerns changed over that ten
year period. That's an interesting question and the answer is
yes and no. So there's always the same problems with
(12:01):
love and merit and will anyone ever loved me? And
how do I you know, should I stay in this relationship?
Or you know, the family conflicts they never change with
universal But there is one category of letter that I
have received so many letters like this over the last
couple of years, and that is the conflicts about politics
(12:24):
and belief systems. You know, especially in the lead up
to the election, you know, people were saying, do I
go to my mother's birthday celebration because I know, you
know a lot of her family are Trump voters and
I'm not, and we'll fight, and you know, I don't
want to disturb you know, what, what do I do
if I'm dating somebody who has different political values. In
(12:45):
a couple of cases, it wasn't so much about who
they voted for, but beliefs that were espoused about race
or you know, somebody's saying you're racist for saying this,
or you're homophobic for saying that, and then that causing
um a lot of family turmoil and sometimes in romantic
relationships too. And then of course there's this category of
people saying, I'm in despair about the state of our country,
(13:09):
right I'm worried about the divisiveness, I'm worried about the
anti factors, I'm worried about climate change and the powers
that be not really taking those those issues seriously. And
so that's a pretty new category. I mean, I used
to get a couple of letters like that, but now
there's dozens of them, which probably doesn't surprise you. It
doesn't surprise me because I get the same letters. I
(13:31):
get the same kind of encounters from people literally walking
down the street. Do you have any thoughts about how
number One, you do deal with people who are in
your life but literally you can't listen to I have
one friend whose father isn't just a staunch supporter of Trump,
but taunts her and you know, is constantly in her
(13:54):
face about you know, how great Trump is and how
wrong everybody is. And up until now she has felt
like she could tolerate his idiosyncrasies and eccentricities and some
of his behavior, which you know sometimes you know, very
over the top. But now she feels like, what do
I don't want to end a relationship over a political difference. Well,
(14:17):
you know, it is complicated. What I try to do
first is remember that, yes, absolutely, things are extraordinarily divisive now,
and I would say that we're in a place that
we've never quite been to this extreme. And yet it's
also true that there has always been profound and deep
and real political disagreements in the nation and among families,
(14:40):
and you know, to take a breath and have some
perspective about this. I mean, I remember my own grandmother,
my mother's mother, who I loved. You know, we would
get in these terrible arguments. She would say things like
feminist ruined, feminist ruined. This country's so yeah, yeah, so
you've been there, and we can laugh about it now
because it's like okay, you know, so you know, with her,
(15:01):
what I thought is Okay, I disagree with you, and
I'm upset that you said that, But there are things
I love about you, and there are important connections we have,
and I'm just going to really focus on those things.
And maybe we're not going to talk about feminism, maybe
we're not going to talk about reproductive rights because we disagree.
So avoidance is a key thing in those relationships. But
what I would say to your friend you said that, um,
(15:23):
you know, her father taunts her about politics, and I
think the direction I would go in that relationship is
set aside the subject of that taunting, to say, listen,
would I allow this person to taunt me about you know,
fill in the blank, about my looks or about my
food I cooked for him, or you know, whatever that is.
(15:43):
It's rude behavior. It doesn't matter what they're talking about.
And that she can draw boundary and say she's not saying, listen,
we're not going to talk politics. She's saying, listen, you're
going to treat me with loving, kindness and respect. And
if you can't, you know, we need to take a
little distance. I think when somebody's me to you and
rude to you or disrespectful, you have the right to
(16:04):
set a boundary, and you should. I'm with you completely
on that. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
You know, is there some particular piece of advice that
(16:27):
you can recall that you've given over the years that
surprised you in the way it resonated with people. Well,
I hear from people, honestly every day, and it's been
so interesting to see the ways that my advice has
been taken into so many people's lives. The one that
honestly did surprise me that I hear about a lot
(16:47):
as a letter I wrote many years ago called the
Truth that Lives There, and I answered three letters instead
of one in this column, which I rarely do, but
I did it because I have so many letters in
this category. I wanted people to see the different stories
that were being sent to me, the different letters, and
what the letters were about is is this conundrum. I
(17:08):
care about this person I'm in a relationship with. I
love this person i'm in a relationship with, and I
want to end the relationship, but I feel bad about
doing it because he or she hasn't done anything quote
unquote wrong. And I wrote a letter back in which
I said, essentially, it's okay to do that. You know,
if you want to leave, it's okay to leave, because
(17:29):
wanting to leave is enough. You know, there's a way
to say to somebody, this is the truth about how
I feel, and this is what I need for my life.
It's a very simple thing. And yet I was surprised
by how many people said that changed my life. Nobody
had ever said to me that I could trust myself
like that, that I could grant myself that kind of permission.
(17:52):
And of course I'm not talking about just any time
there's conflict in a relationship you could say, oh it's over,
I up and leave. I'm talking about, you know, if
you're really feeling like something's not right for you. And
and this is kind of connected to this question you
just asked me about your friend whose father taughts her
about politics. Is ultimately about very calmly stating what you
(18:14):
want to need in your life. And you want a
need a father who doesn't taunt you. You want and
need relationships that you feel content to be a part
of or happy to be a part of. And we
I think especially as women and girls, but I would
I say men and boys get this too. For some reason,
we're told not to trust ourselves a lot, and I
(18:35):
think so much of the work that I do is
about trying to shed light on that and maybe undo
some of that. I mean, I think the most radical
act is to tell the truth about who you are
and what you want. And how hard that is. It's
so hard, and it is and we now know from
a lot of research that's being done that your body
(18:58):
knows that you're not living your truth. That the aches
and pains, physical even ailments can often be connected to
you lying to yourself. You're not being truthful to yourself,
and your body is like, this is not working for me,
and so please figure that out right. It's it's interesting
(19:20):
too that you say research shows this, because you're right.
But the question I have for you is that research
doesn't even need to show it because we know it.
Like do you know that feeling you know? Have you
had times in your life? In fact, I know the
answer is yes, when you know something's not right and
you feel it in your body or you know something
is right that you're like, Okay, I just have a
good feeling about this or this is what's right for me,
(19:42):
and it's I'm not making it out of avoidance or denial.
I've really thought about it, I've done deep about it,
and this is what's right for me. I have to
ask you, um, you know, do your kids ever ask
you for your advice? Or are they to footbal teenagers
don't think you have anything to tell them? Please? No,
(20:03):
of course they don't ask me. No. I might give
them advice Hillary, but they do not. They do not
listen to it or follow it in any way. I mean,
I think that that's been the heart. I mean you,
you know, you've lived through it with Chelsea, right like
you've parented a teen, and there she is now, this
nice young woman of full grown up, a mother herself.
(20:25):
I've had to really lean on women friends of mine
who have older kids, and I just say, okay, so
are they going to absorb some of these values? Because
I mean, honestly, my husband Brian and I sometimes have
felt really a kind of crisis of consciousness about this
because we are both very political, very much activist to
My husband's a documentary filmmaker and has made all kinds
(20:47):
of important films about social issues, and I have too,
and certainly we can see that our kids have absorbed that.
You know that they both are incredibly their progressives, and
they're there. They even push us further on areas issues.
They're very outspoken. But when it comes to values like
I don't know, clean up after yourself, you know, like
(21:09):
do your own dishes, like leave a place better than
you found it, that value has not been absorbed at all,
you know, Cheryl, I am such a fan of yours
for so many reasons, but your openness, your honesty, your kindness,
your constant quest for wisdom, which is a word I
(21:31):
revere because it can only come if you have lived
awhile and you've seen a lot, and you're trying to
absorb what it all means. Is such a a light shining.
And I want to end by you know, asking you
what do you see for the future. How do you
see both individuals and us collectively finding our way to
(21:55):
more stable ground after all we have experienced. Well, I
think that's the only way any of us can find
our way to stable ground, whether it be individually or
collectively as a nation, is to do so much of
what we've been talking about Hillary comes down to being
brave enough to tell the truth as often as possible
(22:16):
to the people who need to hear it. Trusting yourself
and expecting the kind of love and compassion and kindness
and light you put into the world, expecting it in return,
And that to me describes an empowered person. You know,
I mean, I know that you have spent a lifetime
(22:36):
believing that we as individuals can make a political difference
in the world, whether it be as simple as making
sure we always cast that vote, whether it being are
the tiniest local election or the national elections, or you know,
giving back to our communities and whatever way way we can.
And I think that you know, that kind of work,
that kind of what I'll just call sort of public
(22:57):
work UM, is really connected to the private work we
do in our lives in nurturing our own sense of
emotional well being UM, nurturing the relationships that are meaningful
and that matter to us. And so this very intimate
advice giving I do, as dear Sugar, I think, does
have social impact and does have political impact, because the
(23:18):
kind of person you are in your very own home
and your very own school and your very own community
really extends out into the kind of citizen you are.
And so there's a lot at stake when it comes
to UM figuring out how to be in the world
and what we believe we're capable of. And so when
I think of the way forward, what I always think
is the work I can do today. It really matters.
(23:40):
And I think that's true of everyone every morning when
we when we wake up, we have something to give,
and the only way we can give it is if
we take care of ourselves. Amen. Amen, my friend. Well,
I cannot thank you enough for joining me for this podcast,
and I know that our listeners are going to relish
hearing from you. Uh and I look forward to our
(24:04):
past crossing and a continuation of this conversation. Thank you
so much for having me on your show. It's always
really a pleasure to speak to you. You always share
some wisdom and I'm grateful for that. You can get
more of Cheryl's Dear Sugar column by subscribing to her
(24:26):
substack at Cheryl Strait dot substack dot com. Advice comes
in many forms and from many sources. Some folks build
entire careers out of giving advice, from acclaimed writers like
Cheryl to political consultants like my next guest, Luise Miranda.
(24:48):
Born in Puerto Rico, Luis came to New York in
the early nineteen seventies and almost immediately became a force
as an activist and leader. A veteran of multiple mayoral
administrations in the City of New York, Luise became a
fixture in New York politics, launching his own consulting firm
(25:09):
and becoming known for his astute advice and his uncanny
ability to bring people together, which, boy, do we need
now more than ever. As I mentioned at the top
of this episode, when I began thinking about launching my
campaign for public office, my very first to run for
the Senate from New York, Luise became an invaluable advisor.
(25:34):
It is always a pleasure catching up with him, and
it's not easy because he never stops moving from his campaigns,
to his philanthropy to his artistic endeavors. He's one of
the most energetic and hard working people I know. When
we spoke, his son Lens catchy song we Don't Talk
About Bruno from Disney's hit movie in Canto was at
(25:59):
the top of the charts. So let me start just
by checking in. Have you and your family been running
around singing we Don't talk about Bruno? NonStop? Is? Yes? Uh?
In fuck? I take Lee Manuel's little one to school
and we play. We don't talk about Bruno non stop
(26:24):
until we get to school. So for forty five minutes
we're singing, we don't talk about Bruno. My two older
grandchildren are exactly the same way. My granddaughter wakes up
singing it. Well, I want to talk about you too.
I mean, obviously we both are huge admirers of Lynn Manuel,
but I'm also a huge admirer of you, Louise. I mean,
(26:47):
you know, I think I first met you back in
the late nineties when I was thinking about running for
the Senate, and everybody I talked to in New York said,
there's one person you have to talk to. That's Louise Miranda,
And I said, okay. And I was so grateful to
have your help and your guidance during that campaign. And
(27:09):
you've been involved in New York politics for a long time,
you know, in as I recall the story, you went
from picketing then mayor and got to working for him.
So yeah, tell me and our listeners how you got
involved in New York politics, and particularly this cotch story,
(27:33):
because that's a really interesting way. It's really interesting, Hillary,
because when I came to New York in the early seventies.
I was so typical migrant from Porto Rico. Takes a
little while for you to pay any attention to your
local politics, and it took a little while for me
(27:55):
to understand the importance of politics in our lives, from
when do they pick up the garbage and how frequently
they pick up the garbage to the big palace of
the sessions that impact all of ours. So I got
(28:15):
involved when we moved to Washington Heights in the Parents
Movement District six UH with an overcrowded district, one of
three very overcrowded districts in the city of New York.
And my daughter was going too one of those schools,
and got involved in school board politics to increase and
(28:39):
advocate to increase the number of schools. And then this
catch opportunity came up and sort of a friend said,
why don't you apply. I'm like, I don't know that
you apply to be special advisor to the mayor. I
think that your call upon who served in positions like that.
(29:02):
You don't just send a resume. Uh, but I did
send the resume. This story leaves out a little of
the color, Luise, because you were picketing him, fighting for
more schools, and you were often the person when the
mayor would show up somewhere who was leading the charge, yelling,
(29:24):
you know, demanding and honestly having known a conscious I
was lucky enough to I think they saw a like
minded person in you, and you know got you that job.
I will tell you when I had the interview the mayor,
set listen, you and I are not going to agree
(29:46):
on everything, but I think you and I are going
to agree on fundamental things for the Latino community. And
he went through a list of those and then he said, however,
when you disagree with me, you have to do it privately. Right,
that's fair? And I thought, well, this seems like a
(30:10):
fair ask from someone who's going to be my boss. Yes. Right,
And you did become a political consultant, and you know,
it's a word we throw around a lot, but I
think it'd be interesting for people outside of politics to
know what does that mean? Kind of walk us through,
you know, a kind of typical experience with somebody who's
(30:33):
thinking about running for office. What kind of advice do
they typically want? What is it you provide for them?
I really start Hillary with trying to understand who that
person is at the end of the day. My training
as a clinical psychologist, which I thought was the waste
(30:54):
of my time, actually came handy. I just want to
make sure that you are who you say you are,
because voters are not stupid. Voters are looking for people
who are telling a story that it's real so that
(31:15):
they can connect with them. At the end of the day,
whatever you're talking about has to go hand in hand
with whatever it's happening in society, and you have to
have a connection from a particular point of view. If
you are a conservative, that's not a candidate that I'm
interested in helping, but I understand that that is a perspective.
(31:39):
So I want to connect with whomever the candidate is.
And then I want to spend some time figuring out
what is the best way to tell your message. And
then there's the part that is part of the science.
You also need to look at pulse. You want to
(31:59):
see what the electorate it's thinking. You want to know
what your district it's like. You know, people tend to
throw all latinos in the same box. Big mistake, big mistake.
So if you're running on the district where half of
the people are humans or venezuelans. That's a very different mindset.
(32:23):
So I want to know all of that. Well, you've
given advice to nearly everybody on the Democratic side in
New York. I know Chuck Schumer, Kirsen, gillibrand obviously Attorney
General Tis James, and many many others. It has to
sometimes be hard to deliver difficult news or to tell
(32:45):
somebody who's running you know this isn't working. You've got
to shift gears. How do you talk to somebody when
you know the advice is difficult, or you actually meet
resistance as the person doesn't want to hear it. I
think the most you could do is to talk it out.
First of all, there's better moments than others. Sometimes things
(33:10):
are happening in real time and you have to give
news in real time. But for the most part, there
is better times than others, and you're looking for those
better times. Where you're candidate, it's more relaxed, it's less tired,
it's willing to listen. And the second part, I just
(33:33):
believe in pull the band aids off. I not want
to sugarcoat, but just to say it and let's talk
it over. So then we figure out what it's the
best way to proceed. But I believe in telling the truth.
(33:54):
I believe it in my family, I believe it in
my work. Sometimes I'm a little around the ages, you know.
My wife tells me, can you sugarcoat it a little?
And I'm like, I'm not the best doing that, but
I'm willing to talk it over until he feels better. Yeah,
(34:14):
I get it. You said something that I want to
unpack a little bit because I don't think people really
understand the importance of you pointing out that when we
talk about the Latino community, this is not a monolithic community.
There is so much difference in background, approach. Lots of
(34:36):
times you know where they stand on political issues of
all kinds, and you have particular expertise in reaching Latino voters.
And what is the first thing you think about that
any candidate should do if they want to reach and
convince Latino voters to support them. Let's understand who's the audience.
Are we in a community that is predominantly met Mexican,
(35:00):
were in a community that is predominantly Puerto Rican? How
old is this community in your district? It's not the
same thing to be in Arizona when you're talking to
third generation Mexican Americans and newly migrated Mexican Americans. So
you need to know a bit of who the audience
(35:23):
is before you open your mouth, particularly if you don't
have a history with that group. If you have a
history with that group, it's a totally different mulgame. You know,
percent people would tell me during the last election, will
get the lion's share of Cubans for Biden because you
(35:47):
got meaning you, Hillary Clinton, you got the lions share
of Cubans for you. Different reality, You had a relationship
for years. So it's not the same thing when you're
introducing someone, not because they don't know who he is,
(36:09):
but they want to really figure out ideologically who that
person is exactly. Well, you know, I think sometimes people
forget it comes back to relationships. You have to know
people and they have to know you. And how do
you think we could better convey and direct Democrats to
(36:30):
do a better job and understanding and communicating with the
Latino voters. Uh, to make sure they know what the
issues are, to make sure they know who the audience
it's going to be. Uh. You don't go to South
Texas to talk about open borders, right, do you go
(36:51):
to South Texas to figure out how do we continue
to have a relationship with our neighbors. How do we
make sure our new neighbors come in an orderly fashion
into the country. Because we do make a better country
and a diverse country. It's a better country. But you
(37:12):
need to convey to people that you do believe that
it must happen in an orderly fashion. And I think
that part of the issue. Also, it's we criticized the
Republicans at seventies seven percent of them or seventies six
percent of them are with Trump. They are a monolithic
(37:34):
party right now, We're not right. We have a diversity
of opinions, and as a result, we have to learn
about what that diversity of opinions are and who are
the best messengers for different Latino communities. That's exactly right.
(37:57):
We'll be right back. Well, you know, we've got a
new governor and a new mayor in New York. Kathy
Hoco is the governor and Eric Adams is our new mayor.
Have you given advice to either or both of them?
(38:19):
I actually ended up in the Mayor's transition committee in
Arts and Culture as well, as in the Appointment Committee.
So I have had the opportunity to work with some
of the team and it has been a great experience.
The only thing that happens Hillary when we get older
(38:43):
is that I care less and less about what somebody
else thinks. Amen. Brother, I think that with age comes
wisdom quote and quote, and the ability to be a
little bit more honest about how you see the world.
(39:08):
And you've never been shy before you got older. I
have never been shy. As I get older, I get bolder.
I love that older and bolder. I love it. So
you could tell me I don't think that I'm going
to do that, and that's cool, I understand. But you
(39:28):
asked from my advice, I'm giving it to you. Well.
The other thing that you and I have worked on
is uh your commitment to helping candidates get elected across
our country. And you chair a group that I've worked
with and that I think is doing terrific, you know,
candidate Recruitment and Support, and that's called the Latino Victory Fund.
(39:51):
When you think about encouraging people to run for office,
do you think we're making progress convincing democrats and in
your case, Latino democrats to run for the unglamorous offices
the school board, like you started off in politics advocating
for the local jobs that you know, even boards of
(40:13):
election which the Republicans are literally trying to take over.
Are we making progress convincing people on our side of
the political aisle to do that. I think we are good. Okay,
we know that to create the bench, you don't start
by running for president. And sometimes I meet with candidates
(40:34):
who said I want to run for Congress. I'm like, yeah,
have you thought about your local assembly, your local city council?
Because politics it's no different than any other profession. You learn,
ask you do. I hear my son respond all the time.
(40:56):
People said to him, Hamilton's was a much more complex
creation that in the heights. And of course I know
more about how to make r well. The same thing
happens in politics. You become more season and by creating
that bench, you need to work with people to run
(41:18):
for all of those offices. Uh. We are doing a
lot of that in Florida. We are doing a lot
of that in Georgia. In places where we're beginning to
increase population, you begin by creating a bench and by
running people in smaller jurisdiction, more homogeneous jurisdictions where the
(41:44):
issues are probably less, but they begin to get their
policies ready when they go for higher office. Absolutely, you're,
you know, a pretty effective parent. I mean, I know
little bit about your family. You had a lot of
help from. You know, your wife obviously Lose is a great, great,
(42:05):
you know, partner and parent with you. She is she
is the anchor you can tell. I mean, she really
has such a an anchoring role in your lives. Um,
do you have parenting advice? How did you raise you know,
such a great daughter and such an amazing son. It's
it's by being insightful and being able to put yourself
(42:28):
in their shoes at whatever age they are, in whatever
circumstances they're in. And sometimes the advice is no, you
know what I mean, Sometimes the advice is no. But
I always remember, and Emmanuel tells it very with a
lot of tenderness that when he was off for a
(42:50):
full time job at Hunter Elementary School as an English teacher.
You know, those are the kinds of jobs that people
kill for where you stayed there until you retire, and
he was offered one of those jobs. He loved teaching
And the incredible thing this is before emails, people actually
(43:12):
wrote letters to each other. So I actually wrote me
this letter and said, what do I do? Do I
take this job or do I continue to be attempt
make enough to pay the rent and continue to work
in in the Heights, which was a musical that he'd
(43:34):
been working on since he was in college, right and
his first hit that he got his first Tony. And
I thought to myself, a good parent will say take
a full time job, you will love that job, you
are a great teacher, and keep writing in the Heights
(43:55):
on the side. But I knew that that was wrong,
that I was him. I needed to have In the
Heights as my priority. So being able to say, no, baby,
you don't take the full time job. You continue to
work in in the Heights. You make enough to pay
(44:18):
your rent. You could continue and raid our refrigerator, but
that's what you need to do as a twenty five
year old kid. So being able to look at the
issue from your kids perspective, it's key to be in
(44:39):
a good parent. Well, it does sound like you learned
a few things in that psychology course, you know, Luise.
I just can't thank you enough for talking with me.
You have done so much to move both candidates and
issues forward. And yes, as we grow older, we grow
bolder because you, you and I are not going off
(45:00):
into the you know, into the sunset. As I say
all the time, either someone in the office is going
to call my wife and say he died, or my
wife is going to call the office and said he
didn't wake up. I'm going to be working until that
last moment. I love it. Music to my ears. Thank you,
(45:22):
my friend, Thank you for having me. Louise truly is
non stop to keep up with all the great work
he's doing. You can follow him on Twitter. And as
you think about the advice you give and receive in
(45:43):
your own life, always remember how important it is to
pay attention to the advice your own body and mind
give you two and to live your own truth as
I talked about with Cheryl. And if you'd like to
share advice you want to give, or you have ideas
about out what we should talk about on our podcast,
(46:03):
please email us at You and Me Both pod at
gmail dot com. You and Me Both is brought to
you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran,
Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Aberdeen,
(46:24):
Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan,
Lona Valmorrow, and Benita Zaman. Our engineer is Zack McNeice
and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you
like you and me both, please tell someone else about it.
(46:46):
And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you
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on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and may you
give and get some hard earned wisdom in the days ahead.
(47:06):
And I'll see you next week. M
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both.
You know, I've given a lot of advice over the years,
and I've also sought and received a lot of advice,
some of it better than others. But when it came
to launching my career running for the Senate in New York,
(00:24):
one person whose advice everyone told me to seek out
was that of Luise Miranda. A venerated political consultant. Louise
has given invaluable guidance to many New York candidates and
politicians over the years, including me as well here later
(00:47):
in this episode. He's also advised his son, the award
winning composer, lyricist, actor, producer, and director Lynn Manuel Miranda.
But when it comes to seeking advice on a more
personal level, I know I'm not alone and thinking, there's
no one quite like Cheryl Strade, And that's where we
(01:10):
start today's episode. Cheryl Strade is an acclaimed author, best
known for her stunning and brutally honest memoir Wild From
Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, later made
into a hit film starring Reese Witherspoon in Cheryl began
(01:30):
anonymously writing the Dear Sugar advice column under the pseudonym Sugar.
Since then, the column developed a loyal following and has
had several lives, including as a podcast. It went on
hiatus for a while, but now she's brought it back
as a newsletter, which is good news to fans of
(01:51):
Cheryl's like I am. I've had the pleasure of getting
to know her, spending time first together during my campaign
for president, and then she's interviewed me about my books,
and I've been a guest on her podcast. I always
love talking with Cheryl, and I was so delighted to
have the chance to now interview her for this podcast.
(02:14):
I began by asking Cheryl how things have been for
her and her family at home in Portland, Oregon over
the many, many months of this pandemic. To be honest,
I'm not alone in saying that these last couple of
years have been difficult ones in in my life and
my family's life. We're doing okay, but I have a
(02:35):
son and a daughter who are a junior and a
sophomore in high school, and it's been hard. I think
this pandemic has been especially difficult for teenagers people in
the early twenties. Of course, people who are older as well,
you know the terrible health risks that they've faced in
this pandemic. But teenagers socially mental health has been a struggle.
(02:56):
And I think, as we all know, adolescence is always
a difficul whole time, but it is a time when
you want to be with your peers and socializing and
having fun, and the pandemic has put a little crimp
in that, right. I have to say, I, for one,
was really pleased when you brought back the Dear Sugar
column last year after a couple of years hiatus as
(03:20):
a newsletter. What went into that decision about bringing back
the opportunity for you to hear from people and and
try to give some advice, right, So you know the
reason I brought it back, Really it goes back to
this essential belief that I have, and that is that
stories save us, the literature specifically, but are in general,
(03:44):
is the thing that allows us to see ourselves most clearly.
It tells us that we can go on. It tells
us that that we can endure suffering. It tell us
us that we can triumph, we can lose, we can
love that these experiences that we have, these struggles have,
they are universal and timeless, and so as a writer,
(04:04):
I have always felt that my mission my work in
an interesting way, not so unlike yours. You've spent your
lifetime as a public servant trying to make the world
a better place, make people's lives better. I've done that too,
in a very different way through writing. And what I
try to do is to remind us all of our
(04:25):
humanity that the universal threads that connect us. And of course,
in the Deer Sugar Advice column, I do that very
specifically because there is one person saying help, I'm struggling.
I can't go on. And what I try to do
is not just give advice. Anyone who reads the Deer
Sugar column knows that I don't just say Okay, do this,
(04:46):
this and this. What I say is, let us think
deeply about the question you're asking me. And so I
really just engage with people's struggles rather than telling them
what to do. And and I hope that that offers
some illuminations, consolation, something for them to hold onto so
they can't take that next step forward. Well, I think
(05:08):
that's the best kind of advice that anybody can give
to try to really understand in a radically empathetic way
what is going on, and the way that you do
it through storytelling really locates the advice in a broader
(05:29):
context so that it's not just the person writing into
you saying I'm a nurse and I have a teenager
and I've never been so tired or despairing, or in
a recent column where somebody said, you know, I'm estranged
from my mother, should I send her a birthday card?
I mean the way that you answer, the way you
weave in your own experiences, the way that you have
(05:53):
allusions to literature, to other more universal stories. It really
is a un gift. Cheryl. You are such a compelling writer.
Thank you, And then to put yourself, you know, in
the position now for over ten years of giving people
advice must have started off feeling kind of scary, like,
(06:16):
you know, did you wonder when you were asked to
pick up this column, how can I give advice? Or
I'm the one needing advice? Which I think, of course
that was the first thing I thought, is who am I,
you know, to be giving advice? Which I think is
always the person you want to go to for advice
because the person who thinks that they have all the
(06:37):
answers is the person who you're probably not going to
listen to. Right. We don't tend to enjoy being lectured
or feeling inferior to somebody. We tend to seek counsel
from somebody who they're down there. I always say I'm
down in the muck with the people who seek advice
from me. And so I think of myself as someone
(06:58):
as a writer who's job is to engage in a
really deep, deep, profound way with the truth and not
just to sit around and say, wow, this is what
I think or this is how I feel, but really
dig more deeply into the sort of the questions that
sit below the questions that have been posed to me.
That's a really important point, Yeah, because when someone asks
(07:20):
you something, it's often not really what they're asking you,
isn't it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, even just that question
that you decided, where a woman who's estranged from her
mother for good reasons, should I send her a birthday
card or not? You know, that's the question you think
you have for me. But what you're really grappling with
is how are you going to live with this? This gigantic,
(07:45):
sad decision that you've had to make to strange yourself
from this person who is supposed to be the closest
relationship of your life. Right And so it's a big question.
And what I often try to get people to do
is really grapple with the bigger questions. Right. Well, the
way that you answered that particular question was especially meaningful
(08:06):
because you talked about your own estrangement from your father,
and it happened to be around the time that he
passed away, after you had not had any contact with
him for many years. And just you're sharing what it
meant to have to cut off contact with your own father.
(08:26):
And you have a line in there which I was
so struck by you were sad because you weren't sad.
You had, in effect kind of made your peace with
not having a relationship with him. You gave permission to
not just the person seeking the advice, but all of
us who were reading that column to think about our
(08:47):
own lives, to think about our own relationships. And you know,
I I was really sad when my father died, in
part because I really had a difficult experience and connecting
with him emotionally. You know, he was like the typical,
you know, product of the Great Depression. He was a
(09:08):
guy's guy who played football at Penn State, and then
you know, in World War Two he was a chief
petty officer training you know, young men to go off
to fight in the Pacific. And there was a side
to him that I saw glimpses of which was really sensitive,
more emotionally astute than he seemed to be in most
(09:29):
of his daily interactions. And I, you know, I loved
him and I was grateful to him, but there was
ambivalence about, Oh, wouldn't it have been terrific if we
could have really connected, like you know, we could have
had so much more than we were capable of having,
And that your column just made me think about that, uh,
(09:51):
and made me reflect back on, you know, what I
did have, for which I was very grateful me. One
of my favorite memories of my father is even when
I was a little girl and I would I would
say to him, would you will you always love me?
And he'd say, oh, yes, And I'd say will you
love me if I murder somebody? He'd say, well, I
wouldn't like what you did, but I would love you.
(10:12):
And you know that was an interesting kind of basic
way of saying, I will unconditionally love you, but I
won't always like what you do. So even a column
that wasn't directly connected with my own life caused me
to think about, you know, my own father. Oh. I
love hearing that. Hillary, and I do believe that when
(10:34):
we tell the truth about our lives, about what it's
like to be a daughter or a son, or a parent,
or a spouse or you know, fill in the blank,
when we really are honest about it, all kinds of
people will see themselves in us, even if their story
isn't an exact parallel or corollary. And I think that,
you know, one of the things you point out when
(10:56):
I said I was sad about not being sad, you know,
I spent years of my life grieving my dad. I
have and everyone out there who's listening to these words
right now, or who read that column, who's who's had
to let somebody go who they loved to know what
it feels like to actually really say I grieve you,
(11:17):
and I release you from my life, even though you
will go on living. You know, that's a big thing
to do. And I love knowing when I write those
words that people out there are helped by them, not
just the person who wrote me the letter. And then
other people like you say, well, I identify with aspects
of what she just said. In a sense, you do
have a front row seat on our collective psyche. And
(11:41):
thinking about when you first started the Deer Sugar column
ten years ago and then you took the hiatus, have
the problems changed. Have people's concerns changed over that ten
year period. That's an interesting question and the answer is
yes and no. So there's always the same problems with
(12:01):
love and merit and will anyone ever loved me? And
how do I you know, should I stay in this relationship?
Or you know, the family conflicts they never change with
universal But there is one category of letter that I
have received so many letters like this over the last
couple of years, and that is the conflicts about politics
(12:24):
and belief systems. You know, especially in the lead up
to the election, you know, people were saying, do I
go to my mother's birthday celebration because I know, you
know a lot of her family are Trump voters and
I'm not, and we'll fight, and you know, I don't
want to disturb you know, what, what do I do
if I'm dating somebody who has different political values. In
(12:45):
a couple of cases, it wasn't so much about who
they voted for, but beliefs that were espoused about race
or you know, somebody's saying you're racist for saying this,
or you're homophobic for saying that, and then that causing
um a lot of family turmoil and sometimes in romantic
relationships too. And then of course there's this category of
people saying, I'm in despair about the state of our country,
(13:09):
right I'm worried about the divisiveness, I'm worried about the
anti factors, I'm worried about climate change and the powers
that be not really taking those those issues seriously. And
so that's a pretty new category. I mean, I used
to get a couple of letters like that, but now
there's dozens of them, which probably doesn't surprise you. It
doesn't surprise me because I get the same letters. I
(13:31):
get the same kind of encounters from people literally walking
down the street. Do you have any thoughts about how
number One, you do deal with people who are in
your life but literally you can't listen to I have
one friend whose father isn't just a staunch supporter of Trump,
but taunts her and you know, is constantly in her
(13:54):
face about you know, how great Trump is and how
wrong everybody is. And up until now she has felt
like she could tolerate his idiosyncrasies and eccentricities and some
of his behavior, which you know sometimes you know, very
over the top. But now she feels like, what do
I don't want to end a relationship over a political difference. Well,
(14:17):
you know, it is complicated. What I try to do
first is remember that, yes, absolutely, things are extraordinarily divisive now,
and I would say that we're in a place that
we've never quite been to this extreme. And yet it's
also true that there has always been profound and deep
and real political disagreements in the nation and among families,
(14:40):
and you know, to take a breath and have some
perspective about this. I mean, I remember my own grandmother,
my mother's mother, who I loved. You know, we would
get in these terrible arguments. She would say things like
feminist ruined, feminist ruined. This country's so yeah, yeah, so
you've been there, and we can laugh about it now
because it's like okay, you know, so you know, with her,
(15:01):
what I thought is Okay, I disagree with you, and
I'm upset that you said that, But there are things
I love about you, and there are important connections we have,
and I'm just going to really focus on those things.
And maybe we're not going to talk about feminism, maybe
we're not going to talk about reproductive rights because we disagree.
So avoidance is a key thing in those relationships. But
what I would say to your friend you said that, um,
(15:23):
you know, her father taunts her about politics, and I
think the direction I would go in that relationship is
set aside the subject of that taunting, to say, listen,
would I allow this person to taunt me about you know,
fill in the blank, about my looks or about my
food I cooked for him, or you know, whatever that is.
(15:43):
It's rude behavior. It doesn't matter what they're talking about.
And that she can draw boundary and say she's not saying, listen,
we're not going to talk politics. She's saying, listen, you're
going to treat me with loving, kindness and respect. And
if you can't, you know, we need to take a
little distance. I think when somebody's me to you and
rude to you or disrespectful, you have the right to
(16:04):
set a boundary, and you should. I'm with you completely
on that. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
You know, is there some particular piece of advice that
(16:27):
you can recall that you've given over the years that
surprised you in the way it resonated with people. Well,
I hear from people, honestly every day, and it's been
so interesting to see the ways that my advice has
been taken into so many people's lives. The one that
honestly did surprise me that I hear about a lot
(16:47):
as a letter I wrote many years ago called the
Truth that Lives There, and I answered three letters instead
of one in this column, which I rarely do, but
I did it because I have so many letters in
this category. I wanted people to see the different stories
that were being sent to me, the different letters, and
what the letters were about is is this conundrum. I
(17:08):
care about this person I'm in a relationship with. I
love this person i'm in a relationship with, and I
want to end the relationship, but I feel bad about
doing it because he or she hasn't done anything quote
unquote wrong. And I wrote a letter back in which
I said, essentially, it's okay to do that. You know,
if you want to leave, it's okay to leave, because
(17:29):
wanting to leave is enough. You know, there's a way
to say to somebody, this is the truth about how
I feel, and this is what I need for my life.
It's a very simple thing. And yet I was surprised
by how many people said that changed my life. Nobody
had ever said to me that I could trust myself
like that, that I could grant myself that kind of permission.
(17:52):
And of course I'm not talking about just any time
there's conflict in a relationship you could say, oh it's over,
I up and leave. I'm talking about, you know, if
you're really feeling like something's not right for you. And
and this is kind of connected to this question you
just asked me about your friend whose father taughts her
about politics. Is ultimately about very calmly stating what you
(18:14):
want to need in your life. And you want a
need a father who doesn't taunt you. You want and
need relationships that you feel content to be a part
of or happy to be a part of. And we
I think especially as women and girls, but I would
I say men and boys get this too. For some reason,
we're told not to trust ourselves a lot, and I
(18:35):
think so much of the work that I do is
about trying to shed light on that and maybe undo
some of that. I mean, I think the most radical
act is to tell the truth about who you are
and what you want. And how hard that is. It's
so hard, and it is and we now know from
a lot of research that's being done that your body
(18:58):
knows that you're not living your truth. That the aches
and pains, physical even ailments can often be connected to
you lying to yourself. You're not being truthful to yourself,
and your body is like, this is not working for me,
and so please figure that out right. It's it's interesting
(19:20):
too that you say research shows this, because you're right.
But the question I have for you is that research
doesn't even need to show it because we know it.
Like do you know that feeling you know? Have you
had times in your life? In fact, I know the
answer is yes, when you know something's not right and
you feel it in your body or you know something
is right that you're like, Okay, I just have a
good feeling about this or this is what's right for me,
(19:42):
and it's I'm not making it out of avoidance or denial.
I've really thought about it, I've done deep about it,
and this is what's right for me. I have to
ask you, um, you know, do your kids ever ask
you for your advice? Or are they to footbal teenagers
don't think you have anything to tell them? Please? No,
(20:03):
of course they don't ask me. No. I might give
them advice Hillary, but they do not. They do not
listen to it or follow it in any way. I mean,
I think that that's been the heart. I mean you,
you know, you've lived through it with Chelsea, right like
you've parented a teen, and there she is now, this
nice young woman of full grown up, a mother herself.
(20:25):
I've had to really lean on women friends of mine
who have older kids, and I just say, okay, so
are they going to absorb some of these values? Because
I mean, honestly, my husband Brian and I sometimes have
felt really a kind of crisis of consciousness about this
because we are both very political, very much activist to
My husband's a documentary filmmaker and has made all kinds
(20:47):
of important films about social issues, and I have too,
and certainly we can see that our kids have absorbed that.
You know that they both are incredibly their progressives, and
they're there. They even push us further on areas issues.
They're very outspoken. But when it comes to values like
I don't know, clean up after yourself, you know, like
(21:09):
do your own dishes, like leave a place better than
you found it, that value has not been absorbed at all,
you know, Cheryl, I am such a fan of yours
for so many reasons, but your openness, your honesty, your kindness,
your constant quest for wisdom, which is a word I
(21:31):
revere because it can only come if you have lived
awhile and you've seen a lot, and you're trying to
absorb what it all means. Is such a a light shining.
And I want to end by you know, asking you
what do you see for the future. How do you
see both individuals and us collectively finding our way to
(21:55):
more stable ground after all we have experienced. Well, I
think that's the only way any of us can find
our way to stable ground, whether it be individually or
collectively as a nation, is to do so much of
what we've been talking about Hillary comes down to being
brave enough to tell the truth as often as possible
(22:16):
to the people who need to hear it. Trusting yourself
and expecting the kind of love and compassion and kindness
and light you put into the world, expecting it in return,
And that to me describes an empowered person. You know,
I mean, I know that you have spent a lifetime
(22:36):
believing that we as individuals can make a political difference
in the world, whether it be as simple as making
sure we always cast that vote, whether it being are
the tiniest local election or the national elections, or you know,
giving back to our communities and whatever way way we can.
And I think that you know, that kind of work,
that kind of what I'll just call sort of public
(22:57):
work UM, is really connected to the private work we
do in our lives in nurturing our own sense of
emotional well being UM, nurturing the relationships that are meaningful
and that matter to us. And so this very intimate
advice giving I do, as dear Sugar, I think, does
have social impact and does have political impact, because the
(23:18):
kind of person you are in your very own home
and your very own school and your very own community
really extends out into the kind of citizen you are.
And so there's a lot at stake when it comes
to UM figuring out how to be in the world
and what we believe we're capable of. And so when
I think of the way forward, what I always think
is the work I can do today. It really matters.
(23:40):
And I think that's true of everyone every morning when
we when we wake up, we have something to give,
and the only way we can give it is if
we take care of ourselves. Amen. Amen, my friend. Well,
I cannot thank you enough for joining me for this podcast,
and I know that our listeners are going to relish
hearing from you. Uh and I look forward to our
(24:04):
past crossing and a continuation of this conversation. Thank you
so much for having me on your show. It's always
really a pleasure to speak to you. You always share
some wisdom and I'm grateful for that. You can get
more of Cheryl's Dear Sugar column by subscribing to her
(24:26):
substack at Cheryl Strait dot substack dot com. Advice comes
in many forms and from many sources. Some folks build
entire careers out of giving advice, from acclaimed writers like
Cheryl to political consultants like my next guest, Luise Miranda.
(24:48):
Born in Puerto Rico, Luis came to New York in
the early nineteen seventies and almost immediately became a force
as an activist and leader. A veteran of multiple mayoral
administrations in the City of New York, Luise became a
fixture in New York politics, launching his own consulting firm
(25:09):
and becoming known for his astute advice and his uncanny
ability to bring people together, which, boy, do we need
now more than ever. As I mentioned at the top
of this episode, when I began thinking about launching my
campaign for public office, my very first to run for
the Senate from New York, Luise became an invaluable advisor.
(25:34):
It is always a pleasure catching up with him, and
it's not easy because he never stops moving from his campaigns,
to his philanthropy to his artistic endeavors. He's one of
the most energetic and hard working people I know. When
we spoke, his son Lens catchy song we Don't Talk
About Bruno from Disney's hit movie in Canto was at
(25:59):
the top of the charts. So let me start just
by checking in. Have you and your family been running
around singing we Don't talk about Bruno? NonStop? Is? Yes? Uh?
In fuck? I take Lee Manuel's little one to school
and we play. We don't talk about Bruno non stop
(26:24):
until we get to school. So for forty five minutes
we're singing, we don't talk about Bruno. My two older
grandchildren are exactly the same way. My granddaughter wakes up
singing it. Well, I want to talk about you too.
I mean, obviously we both are huge admirers of Lynn Manuel,
but I'm also a huge admirer of you, Louise. I mean,
(26:47):
you know, I think I first met you back in
the late nineties when I was thinking about running for
the Senate, and everybody I talked to in New York said,
there's one person you have to talk to. That's Louise Miranda,
And I said, okay. And I was so grateful to
have your help and your guidance during that campaign. And
(27:09):
you've been involved in New York politics for a long time,
you know, in as I recall the story, you went
from picketing then mayor and got to working for him.
So yeah, tell me and our listeners how you got
involved in New York politics, and particularly this cotch story,
(27:33):
because that's a really interesting way. It's really interesting, Hillary,
because when I came to New York in the early seventies.
I was so typical migrant from Porto Rico. Takes a
little while for you to pay any attention to your
local politics, and it took a little while for me
(27:55):
to understand the importance of politics in our lives, from
when do they pick up the garbage and how frequently
they pick up the garbage to the big palace of
the sessions that impact all of ours. So I got
(28:15):
involved when we moved to Washington Heights in the Parents
Movement District six UH with an overcrowded district, one of
three very overcrowded districts in the city of New York.
And my daughter was going too one of those schools,
and got involved in school board politics to increase and
(28:39):
advocate to increase the number of schools. And then this
catch opportunity came up and sort of a friend said,
why don't you apply. I'm like, I don't know that
you apply to be special advisor to the mayor. I
think that your call upon who served in positions like that.
(29:02):
You don't just send a resume. Uh, but I did
send the resume. This story leaves out a little of
the color, Luise, because you were picketing him, fighting for
more schools, and you were often the person when the
mayor would show up somewhere who was leading the charge, yelling,
(29:24):
you know, demanding and honestly having known a conscious I
was lucky enough to I think they saw a like
minded person in you, and you know got you that job.
I will tell you when I had the interview the mayor,
set listen, you and I are not going to agree
(29:46):
on everything, but I think you and I are going
to agree on fundamental things for the Latino community. And
he went through a list of those and then he said, however,
when you disagree with me, you have to do it privately. Right,
that's fair? And I thought, well, this seems like a
(30:10):
fair ask from someone who's going to be my boss. Yes. Right,
And you did become a political consultant, and you know,
it's a word we throw around a lot, but I
think it'd be interesting for people outside of politics to
know what does that mean? Kind of walk us through,
you know, a kind of typical experience with somebody who's
(30:33):
thinking about running for office. What kind of advice do
they typically want? What is it you provide for them?
I really start Hillary with trying to understand who that
person is at the end of the day. My training
as a clinical psychologist, which I thought was the waste
(30:54):
of my time, actually came handy. I just want to
make sure that you are who you say you are,
because voters are not stupid. Voters are looking for people
who are telling a story that it's real so that
(31:15):
they can connect with them. At the end of the day,
whatever you're talking about has to go hand in hand
with whatever it's happening in society, and you have to
have a connection from a particular point of view. If
you are a conservative, that's not a candidate that I'm
interested in helping, but I understand that that is a perspective.
(31:39):
So I want to connect with whomever the candidate is.
And then I want to spend some time figuring out
what is the best way to tell your message. And
then there's the part that is part of the science.
You also need to look at pulse. You want to
(31:59):
see what the electorate it's thinking. You want to know
what your district it's like. You know, people tend to
throw all latinos in the same box. Big mistake, big mistake.
So if you're running on the district where half of
the people are humans or venezuelans. That's a very different mindset.
(32:23):
So I want to know all of that. Well, you've
given advice to nearly everybody on the Democratic side in
New York. I know Chuck Schumer, Kirsen, gillibrand obviously Attorney
General Tis James, and many many others. It has to
sometimes be hard to deliver difficult news or to tell
(32:45):
somebody who's running you know this isn't working. You've got
to shift gears. How do you talk to somebody when
you know the advice is difficult, or you actually meet
resistance as the person doesn't want to hear it. I
think the most you could do is to talk it out.
First of all, there's better moments than others. Sometimes things
(33:10):
are happening in real time and you have to give
news in real time. But for the most part, there
is better times than others, and you're looking for those
better times. Where you're candidate, it's more relaxed, it's less tired,
it's willing to listen. And the second part, I just
(33:33):
believe in pull the band aids off. I not want
to sugarcoat, but just to say it and let's talk
it over. So then we figure out what it's the
best way to proceed. But I believe in telling the truth.
(33:54):
I believe it in my family, I believe it in
my work. Sometimes I'm a little around the ages, you know.
My wife tells me, can you sugarcoat it a little?
And I'm like, I'm not the best doing that, but
I'm willing to talk it over until he feels better. Yeah,
(34:14):
I get it. You said something that I want to
unpack a little bit because I don't think people really
understand the importance of you pointing out that when we
talk about the Latino community, this is not a monolithic community.
There is so much difference in background, approach. Lots of
(34:36):
times you know where they stand on political issues of
all kinds, and you have particular expertise in reaching Latino voters.
And what is the first thing you think about that
any candidate should do if they want to reach and
convince Latino voters to support them. Let's understand who's the audience.
Are we in a community that is predominantly met Mexican,
(35:00):
were in a community that is predominantly Puerto Rican? How
old is this community in your district? It's not the
same thing to be in Arizona when you're talking to
third generation Mexican Americans and newly migrated Mexican Americans. So
you need to know a bit of who the audience
(35:23):
is before you open your mouth, particularly if you don't
have a history with that group. If you have a
history with that group, it's a totally different mulgame. You know,
percent people would tell me during the last election, will
get the lion's share of Cubans for Biden because you
(35:47):
got meaning you, Hillary Clinton, you got the lions share
of Cubans for you. Different reality, You had a relationship
for years. So it's not the same thing when you're
introducing someone, not because they don't know who he is,
(36:09):
but they want to really figure out ideologically who that
person is exactly. Well, you know, I think sometimes people
forget it comes back to relationships. You have to know
people and they have to know you. And how do
you think we could better convey and direct Democrats to
(36:30):
do a better job and understanding and communicating with the
Latino voters. Uh, to make sure they know what the
issues are, to make sure they know who the audience
it's going to be. Uh. You don't go to South
Texas to talk about open borders, right, do you go
(36:51):
to South Texas to figure out how do we continue
to have a relationship with our neighbors. How do we
make sure our new neighbors come in an orderly fashion
into the country. Because we do make a better country
and a diverse country. It's a better country. But you
(37:12):
need to convey to people that you do believe that
it must happen in an orderly fashion. And I think
that part of the issue. Also, it's we criticized the
Republicans at seventies seven percent of them or seventies six
percent of them are with Trump. They are a monolithic
(37:34):
party right now, We're not right. We have a diversity
of opinions, and as a result, we have to learn
about what that diversity of opinions are and who are
the best messengers for different Latino communities. That's exactly right.
(37:57):
We'll be right back. Well, you know, we've got a
new governor and a new mayor in New York. Kathy
Hoco is the governor and Eric Adams is our new mayor.
Have you given advice to either or both of them?
(38:19):
I actually ended up in the Mayor's transition committee in
Arts and Culture as well, as in the Appointment Committee.
So I have had the opportunity to work with some
of the team and it has been a great experience.
The only thing that happens Hillary when we get older
(38:43):
is that I care less and less about what somebody
else thinks. Amen. Brother, I think that with age comes
wisdom quote and quote, and the ability to be a
little bit more honest about how you see the world.
(39:08):
And you've never been shy before you got older. I
have never been shy. As I get older, I get bolder.
I love that older and bolder. I love it. So
you could tell me I don't think that I'm going
to do that, and that's cool, I understand. But you
(39:28):
asked from my advice, I'm giving it to you. Well.
The other thing that you and I have worked on
is uh your commitment to helping candidates get elected across
our country. And you chair a group that I've worked
with and that I think is doing terrific, you know,
candidate Recruitment and Support, and that's called the Latino Victory Fund.
(39:51):
When you think about encouraging people to run for office,
do you think we're making progress convincing democrats and in
your case, Latino democrats to run for the unglamorous offices
the school board, like you started off in politics advocating
for the local jobs that you know, even boards of
(40:13):
election which the Republicans are literally trying to take over.
Are we making progress convincing people on our side of
the political aisle to do that. I think we are good. Okay,
we know that to create the bench, you don't start
by running for president. And sometimes I meet with candidates
(40:34):
who said I want to run for Congress. I'm like, yeah,
have you thought about your local assembly, your local city council?
Because politics it's no different than any other profession. You learn,
ask you do. I hear my son respond all the time.
(40:56):
People said to him, Hamilton's was a much more complex
creation that in the heights. And of course I know
more about how to make r well. The same thing
happens in politics. You become more season and by creating
that bench, you need to work with people to run
(41:18):
for all of those offices. Uh. We are doing a
lot of that in Florida. We are doing a lot
of that in Georgia. In places where we're beginning to
increase population, you begin by creating a bench and by
running people in smaller jurisdiction, more homogeneous jurisdictions where the
(41:44):
issues are probably less, but they begin to get their
policies ready when they go for higher office. Absolutely, you're,
you know, a pretty effective parent. I mean, I know
little bit about your family. You had a lot of
help from. You know, your wife obviously Lose is a great, great,
(42:05):
you know, partner and parent with you. She is she
is the anchor you can tell. I mean, she really
has such a an anchoring role in your lives. Um,
do you have parenting advice? How did you raise you know,
such a great daughter and such an amazing son. It's
it's by being insightful and being able to put yourself
(42:28):
in their shoes at whatever age they are, in whatever
circumstances they're in. And sometimes the advice is no, you
know what I mean, Sometimes the advice is no. But
I always remember, and Emmanuel tells it very with a
lot of tenderness that when he was off for a
(42:50):
full time job at Hunter Elementary School as an English teacher.
You know, those are the kinds of jobs that people
kill for where you stayed there until you retire, and
he was offered one of those jobs. He loved teaching
And the incredible thing this is before emails, people actually
(43:12):
wrote letters to each other. So I actually wrote me
this letter and said, what do I do? Do I
take this job or do I continue to be attempt
make enough to pay the rent and continue to work
in in the Heights, which was a musical that he'd
(43:34):
been working on since he was in college, right and
his first hit that he got his first Tony. And
I thought to myself, a good parent will say take
a full time job, you will love that job, you
are a great teacher, and keep writing in the Heights
(43:55):
on the side. But I knew that that was wrong,
that I was him. I needed to have In the
Heights as my priority. So being able to say, no, baby,
you don't take the full time job. You continue to
work in in the Heights. You make enough to pay
(44:18):
your rent. You could continue and raid our refrigerator, but
that's what you need to do as a twenty five
year old kid. So being able to look at the
issue from your kids perspective, it's key to be in
(44:39):
a good parent. Well, it does sound like you learned
a few things in that psychology course, you know, Luise.
I just can't thank you enough for talking with me.
You have done so much to move both candidates and
issues forward. And yes, as we grow older, we grow
bolder because you, you and I are not going off
(45:00):
into the you know, into the sunset. As I say
all the time, either someone in the office is going
to call my wife and say he died, or my
wife is going to call the office and said he
didn't wake up. I'm going to be working until that
last moment. I love it. Music to my ears. Thank you,
(45:22):
my friend, Thank you for having me. Louise truly is
non stop to keep up with all the great work
he's doing. You can follow him on Twitter. And as
you think about the advice you give and receive in
(45:43):
your own life, always remember how important it is to
pay attention to the advice your own body and mind
give you two and to live your own truth as
I talked about with Cheryl. And if you'd like to
share advice you want to give, or you have ideas
about out what we should talk about on our podcast,
(46:03):
please email us at You and Me Both pod at
gmail dot com. You and Me Both is brought to
you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran,
Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Aberdeen,
(46:24):
Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan,
Lona Valmorrow, and Benita Zaman. Our engineer is Zack McNeice
and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you
like you and me both, please tell someone else about it.
(46:46):
And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you
waiting for? You can subscribe to you and me both
on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and may you
give and get some hard earned wisdom in the days ahead.
(47:06):
And I'll see you next week. M
Host
Hillary Clinton
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