June 14, 2021 • 40 mins
This week Kat (@kat.defatta) is FREAKING PUMPED to have her friend Max Barry (@maxtbarry) on the show to talk about some things that have been ON HER MIND the past couple of weeks. Kat started reading the book, Man Enough, by Justin Baldoni and has had a couple revelations about the normative culture we are surrounded by. In this episode, Kat sits down and has a very real and raw conversation about how societal norms encourage some individuals to not choose themselves. Max walks us through his story of self discovery when it comes to his sexuality, shares with us a very important perspective on what it feels like to try to fit in as a "man" in our culture today, and discusses what he believes needs to change in order to allow more humans to find full freedom to be who they are. And TBH the timing is impeccable because... HAPPY PRIDE MONTH.
Kat also shares about a charity event that is happening in Nashville on June, 20, 2021: Songs to End ALZ: an evening benefiting The Longest Day & the Alzheimer’s Assocation
Below are the links to find more information!
VIP ticket link: songstoendalz.eventbrite.com
Donation link: https://act.alz.org/goto/jayallen
Facebook event: https://fb.me/e/Dahz6O8e
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You
Need Therapy. My name is Kat and I have recorded
this intro about fifteen times, so be with me in
this moment. If you are new, welcome, I'm so glad
you're here. And before we get going, I just want
to give the little disclaimer that this is not therapy.
This is just a podcast where a therapist is talking
(00:30):
about a lot of different things. Before we get into
the episode, I'm like so excited to talk about the episode.
Maybe that's why I keep messing the intro up. But
before we get going, I just want to give a
little shout out to an event that is happening in Nashville,
and it is called the Songs to End All's a
night benefiting the Longest Day in the Alzheimer's Association. It
(00:51):
is a free event. It is on Sunday, June at
Live Oak. The doors open up five. I'm going to
put the links in the show notes. If you want
to be a part of this or just learn more,
you can go there. But it's going to be a
songwriter style night and I'll read some of the people
that are going to be their current artists include Jay Allen,
Kylie Morgan, Zack Stone, Sam do Rosa, Tiger, Lily After, Midtown,
(01:15):
Jason Knicks, Kyle Jacobs just to name a few. There's more.
There's more names. But it's a really cool event and
this causes really dear to my heart. Alzheimer's affects a
lot of people, and it has affected people that I
love and care about, and so I just wanted to
share this event. If you want to learn more again
show notes, go look at them. Now, let's get into it.
God works in mysterious ways. You know, God just like
(01:38):
knows what he's doing sometimes. You know. My guest today
is my friend Max Max Berry, and he is somebody
that I have gotten closer with over the past probably
six months, but I've known for a couple of years.
We've been talking about him coming on the podcast for
a couple of months and then you'll hear in the conversation.
But I was reading this book and I was like,
I want to talk about this with you, and so
(01:59):
we're let's do the podcast, like let's talk about on
the podcast. And it just so happens that we recorded
this and it's Pride Month, which I just means even
more to me that we're doing this on Pride Month
to help support that as well. So again, my my
guest name is Max Barry. He's amazing. He teaches at
Full Ride with me. He's an awesome, awesome fitness instructor
and even more awesome human. And he got very open
(02:23):
with me, and I'm just so grateful for that. He
was very open with me and this conversation, and I
even learned a lot about him through this conversation. And
we just started talking about masculinity and sexuality and and
the problems with toxic masculinity and how it separates people
and creates hierarchies. And he really talked about his experience
(02:46):
of coming out and what that was like. And I
was gonna stop because the episode will do the talking,
but I'm just so happy to have this conversation out there.
I think that this is a conversation for anyone because
what we're talking about at the end of the day
is humanity and we're all a part of that. So
I want to say thank you Max for doing this,
(03:07):
thank you for being open, thank you for being yourself,
and thank you for choosing yourself to choose to be yourself,
because some of us choose to be other people and
we miss out and I don't have to miss out
on you because you've chosen to be yourself, and I
just am really grateful for that because also it's not
easy for us to choose ourselves. So you're gonna love
Max as much as I love Max. So let's not
(03:28):
waste any more time. Here. He is here, I am.
Here's my conversation with my friend Max. All Right, guys,
I have a very special guest, and I don't always
say that. He just said, this is the first podcast
he's ever been on, which is a huge deal. But
he is my friend that I met in February. Well,
(03:49):
I met you a while ago. We actually have known
each other technically for a long time. Yeah, okay, Well,
first of all, this is Max. So I like to
talk about first impressions. So I met you probably two years.
Three years would be three years? It was was it
Sculpts House? Yeah? So yeah, okay. So Max was a
(04:09):
trainer at a studio r I Pate, and I remember
I would only go to Anne Marie's class, and ADDIE's
class would go to her. But I really just was
a stickler for her, which Anne Marie has been on
the podcast before she did an episode on Fitness Culture.
She's were obsessed with her here, right, And I think
(04:31):
that you taught like at eight thirty or something, and
I could go between clients. I don't know. The point
is I went and I was like, Oh, who's this
Max guy? And I left and I texted Anne Marie
and I was like, a Marie, that guy is great.
I was like happy during that and it was a
type of exercise that wasn't my favorite, Like I enjoyed it,
but it wasn't like exciting for me. And I was
(04:53):
like I was smiling, and she was like, yeah, he's great.
And then two years later, now we worked together and
here we are. Here we are so Max works at
full ride with me as an instructor. If you're in
Nashville and you haven't been, come take my class and
then go take this reply correct. We've been talking about
(05:13):
having you on here for a while and kind of like,
I don't really know what we would talk about, Like
we'll figure it out though, because obviously it'll come, it'll come.
And then I was reading this book titled Man Enough
and it's written by Justin Baldoni. So did you know
who this guy? Was he plays Raphael and Jane the Virgin,
and I never really watched that show. Now I'm watching
(05:33):
it and it's actually very good. So he wrote this
book and it's called Man Enough, and it was about
toxic masculinity. And I'm listening to this book. I listened
to it in the morning. I was getting ready and
it felt like I was like hit with like a
ton of bricks on my face as I'm listening to
him describe some of these things and how masculinity is
portrayed and advertised and encouraged in our culture. And I think, I,
(05:58):
did I text you or I talked to you in person?
You mentioned it to me. I think I had seen
that you posted something about it, okay, and I just
was like, I have to talk about this, yea. So
we're talking before. I don't really know how to ask
the questions that are in my head because they're not questions,
they're just like jumbled thoughts. So I think what I
want to start with is one everybody should go read
that book. I don't care if you're a man or not,
(06:19):
I don't care what you are. Go read the book
because it applies to everybody. Let's start with how has
masculinity been defined and shown to you? How have you
experienced it? What does it mean? All of those things?
I mean, it can be taken so many different ways.
I think the way I interpret masculinity is how I
(06:40):
was raised. And for background for people listening my my upbringing,
I mean, my parents divorced when I was four, and
so I lived full time with my mother and then
I have two older sisters, and my dad was still
a part of my life, but there was always a
little bit of a disconnect between us, and that only
(07:02):
grew as I got older. And I always felt a
sense of safety and a sense of security with my
mom and my sister's but with my dad it was
always there was always tension. And so when I think
of masculinity, I think of all the things that he
wished I was that I always resisted against. When you
say tension, say more this hasn't been established yet. But
(07:23):
I'm gay, so I guess that also should be said.
And so grappling with those thoughts before I understood what
they really meant until later in life. I think that
kind of says it all, you know, because I didn't
know who I was, but he was pushing this to
be one way. Yeah, exactly, and clearly there was a resistance,
(07:44):
but I didn't know what it meant or what it was.
How would you describe your dad? Um, we don't speak anymore,
and I'm not upset about it. It's totally fine when
you felt resistant, Like what was that Like? He wanted
you to play football, honestly, as exactly, but it wasn't
football as baseball. That was probably like one of my
earliest memories actually because and this is sort of a
(08:05):
funny story, I was put into t ball when I
was probably five years old or something, and I always
remember this. My dad was always the one that would
push me anytime I would say I don't want to
do this, and he would push me and push me
and push me. And granted, in life there are people
that need to push you to do things that they
know are good for you, but this was a sense
of pride for him, and it was like, I was
(08:26):
a baseball player, you need to be a baseball player.
And also with him having two other daughters and me
the only son and also the youngest in the family,
it was kind of like, I guess in his eyes,
maybe his last chance that like I don't know, I
feel like there's also that that preconceived idea too, for
for those type of men that only get one son,
or even in stories throughout history, it's like the one son,
you know, the sun it's I don't exactly like, I
(08:50):
don't know, there's some stigma around that anyway. So he
put me in t ball, and I I specifically remember
complaining to my mom that my feet were hot, likely
like I'm not kidding, that's literally why I wanted to
quit anyway. So at this point, my mom want to
(09:14):
put me in ballet, and I so wish that she
had done that, because you can you don't have to
wear any shoes. But anyway, so I remember that specifically
that you know five, that was at five years old. Yeah,
I was already just batting heads with him, no pun intended.
That's that's one of my earlier memories of him kind
of just pushing a certain view that he had on me.
(09:35):
And granted, I know there are wait, there are times
where parents need to push their children to do things
that maybe they don't want to do because they are
inexperience and they don't understand what could be good for
them in the in the future. But I guess in
that scenario that just was one example of where I
was right and he was wrong. I like that you're
saying people have to push you. You're not saying like
I don't want to be encouraged and challenge. When I
(09:58):
was growing up, I played played soccer, but because my
family played soccer, but I didn't have to. I remember
my dad saying, I don't care what you do, but
you have to do something. I don't care what you do,
but you have to have a hobby exactly. And you
didn't so much get that from your dad. No, it
wasn't a path of like, I'm an authority figure, I'm
(10:20):
your father. I'm here to coach you and develop you
and challenge you, but I want you to discover that
on your own. It was this is what I know
it's right for you, and this is what you're going
to do right and wrong. So what does that look
like As you grow older and you start to really
actually make sense of like, I don't want to do this,
this doesn't feel like me. As you're starting to make
(10:40):
sense of that, what does that look like? Well? I
think as I grew older, and a lot of children
that that go through a divorce of their parents. I
think most people it's pretty common knowledge that there's some
sort of like government regulation of like you spend this
much time with your mom and this much time with
your dad based on who is the primary parent. I
guess I don't really know the specifics of it. But
we didn't do that for some reason. So I just
(11:02):
saw my dad when I saw him. It wasn't like
you have to go here every other week. When I
was four, all all of my memories have to do
with separated parents and difficulties there. It sounds I guess
that sounds like it could be kind of sad, you know,
But in this I never knew anything else. So it's
not like I feel like I missed anything. But that's
just me personally. I don't know. I don't, I don't really.
(11:23):
I don't relate a feeling of like regret or a
feeling of missing out or anything like that. It's just
because again, like and and we haven't really gotten to
my mom's side. She is like an angel and the
best human ever. So the more I developed into myself
and my identity in my adulthood, I guess you could say,
the further away I moved from my dad. So I
(11:43):
don't know if this is jumping around, but I would
like to know. I would like to know this from
personally myself and just for the essence of the conversation.
But as a kid, because my experience is what I've
always seen is always what I felt, So there has
never been any confusion, right, So as a kid, what
does that look like? And what does that feel like?
And what goes on when you're like, Okay, I see
(12:06):
mom and dad and mom and dad and boyfriend and
girlfriend and this and that and what is that? And
then you start to I don't fit in with this
or that, and how do you then you mean of
like other people when I would see that. I guess
what I'm trying to say is like, I've never had
to be confused of like why I don't feel like
this is me because it's always been what I feel like.
So what does that feel like? When you're I don't
(12:27):
even know if you can describe this, but when you're like,
but wait a second, that doesn't feel like me. What
does that mean? How old were you when you remember
feeling that? And then how do you actually figure out
what that even is? That makes sense? It does it does. Yeah,
I think the conversation that happens inside your own head
is really difficult to separate. I guess you know, when
(12:49):
you think about talking to yourself about something, when you
when you think about that rationally, then like a conversation
is between two people, right, So if you think about
talking to yourself, then are you splitting yourself into two
pop you know, It's like, but that's that's kind of
what you have to think, at least to rationalize that.
That's how I think of it. Right, So, as I'm
growing up, there's this side of me that I don't understand,
(13:11):
but that I feel resistance towards. And so as I
get older and as I'm able to develop, and is
that the true side of you? Yes, essentially that's what
I would assume. It would be the resistant side as
you get older and as you become more independent. And
I think a lot of this has to do with
like coming out and and you know, really just standing
in yourself and knowing who you are, because once you
(13:34):
get the closer you get to that, the more the
resistance of your past starts to make sense. So when
were you like, Okay, I'm gay. Was there a moment yeah,
there was. It was twenty fifteen was when I like
came out. I mean I definitely like knew that I
was interested in then Before that, I just didn't want
(13:54):
to accept it for a long time. But so this
was my sophomore year of college. I had medical that
I just had like intense feelings for and it clicked
in my head for some reason. I think at that
point where I was just like, Okay, I really like
this person and unless I decide that like this is
who I am, then I'm going to have to let
go or I won't be able to pursue him. And
(14:16):
it was kind of that at that time where I
was just like, Okay, I feel so strongly about you.
Hold up, because that means you've lived into your as
a straight male and that's not actually how you felt.
And I know so many people that have it takes
even longer than that. I guess maybe it's selfish of me,
but I'm like, I thought you were going to say,
(14:37):
like when you're twelve, because I wish that was. But
maybe that's that's my own stuff. But I think that
that ties back to what we started the conversation with
of like why it took me that long. Okay, so
then tell me the difference between the resistance you've felt. Yeah,
how do we go back to that? Yeah? Well, I
think because why does anyone not say it? Why does
(14:57):
why does any person? And this is not just men,
This is not just women, This is anyone whatever you
identify as. This could be anything regardless of sexuality. It's
like anything that's not the norm exactly, or anything that
has been pushed on you by people that you trust
or are supposed to look up to, and it's not
And again, like I we started off with the with
(15:19):
the relationship with my dad, which obviously everyone can tell
is not great, But it wasn't just him. It was
a lot of male figures in my life. And even
to this day, I'm not kidding, Like even today, I
can I can name a time where I felt uncomfortable
with like straight mail. It's just something that is ingrained
in me a little bit. And I think that that
(15:40):
just has a lot to do with with how I
was brought up. But to tie it back though, I
think it's just you know, like you said, what's the norm?
And like based on my upbringing, the things and the
people that I was around, and the way of thought
and I and I grew up in the South, like
very conservative, very religious in a lot of ways, So
just the ideas that are instilled upon you just don't
(16:03):
allow for something like that to be. Okay, what the
story that I'm making up in my head is the
thought in your head is I have to be this
way or blank? So what would the blank be? I
have to show up as this way or shame an embarrassment? Okay,
at least that's how I rationalize it. Like I like,
(16:24):
I'm trying to put myself in in my prior to
coming out shoes, and I think to myself, like, what
would it feel like to to do this sooner? Like
high school? Max? Yeah, And that's that's what I'm thinking,
is like high school me like if I had just
told everyone like what what? What? What would happen? And
I don't know. I'm a firm believer where it's like
I don't regret anything in life. I don't. I don't
(16:47):
wish that I did things differently because I trust that
how things have happened have made me who I am now.
But I do think back and I'm like, Okay, what
would the consequences have been? And I think a lot
of it has to do with how strong you are
as an individual. And I think that based on your
upbringing and being told that it's not okay or that
it's weird or that it's wrong. In the comments you
(17:09):
must have heard from people that you were close to.
Because let's go back to this the book that I'm
listening to, the author Justin Baldonni wrote he was talking
about a story of him trying to prove his masculinity
to his friends when he was younger, maybe middle school,
high school, and the names he was called when he
didn't show up. I'm totally butchering this the actual story,
(17:32):
So go read the book, but this is the essence
of it. The names that he was called when he
wasn't showing up as your stereotypical strong, brave man doing
strong brave man things was stuff like female body parts
and and gay, which then he's talking about. So it's like,
you're either a man or you're gay. You can't be both.
(17:56):
Like I specifically remember too in high school, I I
tried to be on the football team that I regret
that I say, I regret not not one of my
best ideas. I just didn't understand any of it. And
there was a part of it too, like we had
what they called hell week where literally and I went
(18:18):
to like a boarding school. I mean it was a
day school obviously, but then there were there was also
borders and so we would live on our campus for
a week and do like literally three days. This was
before hazing was not okay and there were policies put
into place to like not allow them. Like it was
like straight up full on hazing for a week and
(18:41):
I remember just counting the days the and it was
literally a week, but I was but I was, like
I hated it so much, and a lot of it
was just it was toxic masculinity. It was all these
men and boys, I don't't even call them men but
boys on the on the football team that we're older,
and it was this concept of like, well we went
through it, so you have to and like just all
(19:02):
of these things and just they're so proud of themselves
for being so aggressive and angry and mean, like and
that's what being a man exactly. And I think from
a very young age, I just I was always in
my head. I was always just questioning it. I was
always just like why this is so dumb, like why
are you so proud of this? Like why do you
feel this way? Why do you act this way? And
(19:23):
why is that good? And what I feel is bad? Exactly?
But I but but it again, it's like majority rules,
you know, And if you put yourself in an environment
where the majority believe in act that way, and you're
the outsider and you're the like the minority there, then
obviously you're not going to be listened to or cared for.
That's another experience that I remember going through and throughout
(19:44):
my life. I think I think being this way and
feeling this way definitely aged me quicker than most too,
because I was constantly evaluating other people and questioning why
I felt different or questioning why I didn't why I
wasn't the way that other people were. You have to
become super intelligent in one aspect, right because you are
your resilient in the fact that I'm going to make
sure that I do fit in that I do find
(20:07):
I want to call it belonging, but true belonging isn't
fitting in. But you had to find a way to
survive with the internal dialogue you're having. Yeah, I think
you just become a master of disguise in a way,
you know, And that's truly the best way I can
explain it. I definitely don't look back on my entire
childhood or upbringing or anything prior to coming out, And
(20:29):
I don't look at it as if I was a
victim in any way. I really don't. Granted, I wish
I didn't have to go through some of those things,
but I definitely feel like in life, whether it's this
experience or anything, going through hard things, doing hard things
makes you tougher and stronger and and gives you that
life experience to then go and teach others things that
you may have learned from it. I mean, we say
(20:50):
this all the time, Like you you don't the biggest
lessons you learn are from usually failure or low points,
you know, when it's traumatic. I don't necessarily think that
that's something that I should be like. I'm not promoting that.
I'm not saying like, oh, I wish like I think
everyone should go through this. I don't, but you grow
through valley, But I do think that you grow through
low points, and so like that's how I've just chosen
to look at everything. But the master of Disguise thing
(21:13):
I think to your point, like when it's a method
of survival, yes, you put on this front and most
people that have been through this experience or something similar
can relate to this that you just become something else
and so then you're kind of leading to different lives.
And that's why it's such a freeing feeling. That's why
coming out is kind of described as a freedom, free
(21:33):
to be who I am. Like, I think it's that
freeing feeling because you're letting go of some of this
person that you've tried to be for so long, Like
that person kind of holds you captive, it holds the
other part of your captive. I have two questions. I
want to start with this one. So you can't see
Max at all, you can hear him, you can look
(21:54):
me up. I want to make sure this question comes
out right because in my head it makes sense. And
you've mentioned when we've been out before, like hanging out,
that it's hard for you to date sometimes because people
can't look at you and know that you're gay. Right,
people look at you and assume you're straight. Is that
a fair sometimes? If I'm dancing, okay, so if we're
(22:18):
just standing straight up, well even I don't think people
could tell at like I didn't know when I met you.
I have no idea. I'm not the most expressive person. Yeah,
I think this is This is where I'm getting to
my question. If it's a question, maybe it's a whatever,
going back to like you can't be masculine and gay.
(22:39):
That whole thing kind of pissed me off. And I
don't know if that's just my feelings because I look
at you and I would say that you are masculine
and you're gay. But because you're masculine and you can't
be gay, or if you're gay, you can't be masculine, right,
They're not mutually. It shouldn't be an either or thing,
I think, I think, and I think that we're moving
in that direction. I think that the idea that someone
(23:00):
is surprised that the two can co exist is really
what needs to be unraveled in society, is that people
shouldn't be shocked by that, you know, And sometimes I
take a look at this and I really think that
it just comes down to a fact of like people
or people and who whatever they are and whoever they
are and however they are, is just is just that
there shouldn't be any added level of confusion or or
(23:23):
questioning around it. That's just I'm just saying that as
like an umbrella thought. But to dive into that a
little bit deeper, I think, yeah, they just they shouldn't
be two separate things. How's that shown up for you
or affected you? Or has that fact that people it's
like one or the other? Do you have feelings about it?
I have, Yeah, Well I think it's and I think
it goes back to what the preconceived notion of being
(23:46):
gay means, you know, like what you were talking about
about how how it is addressed as being feminine. So
when that story was being told, it was being a
woman and being and being gay is not masculine, and
being masculine is better than being those things, and so
(24:06):
those things are less than And that's the thing that's
really frustrating is why is one better than the First
of all, they're not being games is that different? But
the other thing is this idea of being this masculine
man isn't the greatest achievement in the world, But then
everybody else is below them, and that what is what
I think is messed up. Because women can have masculine traits.
(24:29):
Men can have feminine traits. It doesn't make them one
or the other. Goes to your point is people are
just people and that's what it is, absolutely well, I think,
And if you break this down, I mean, I'm I'm
no scientist or I'm not, you know, biologically not surprised,
like I don't understand that. But like even down to
that aspect of it, like men have estrogen, women have testosterone.
Like it's not it shouldn't be a one or the other.
(24:51):
There should be a combined balance of both. And I
think that that's just generally something that isn't really talked
about if you look back in history. I mean the
idea that a king is higher than a queen. And
in a sense, you know what I mean, it's like
it's like that concept that is that has prevailed through
history that the male figure is higher or more than
(25:11):
or better than the female. That's taught to us throughout history,
whether or not it's instilled in us when we're raised
by our parents or whoever were raised by, but it
is taught to us in history that that's a concept,
and so subconsciously it becomes a belief, which then you
have to either unbelieve or you you kind of attack
everything that you view in life with that filter. And
(25:34):
I think, what, yeah, yeah, that was great that it
has been taught to us. All this stuff has been
taught to us. We believe it because it's what's been
taught to us. What you experienced, You were being shoved
in one direction, trying to be taught this one way
of living. Everything is being taught to us. The cool
thing is we can unlearn things that we have to
also want to. I grew up in the South, very sheltered,
one looking one way, and I've had to put effort
(25:57):
into like, Okay, how do I unlearned things that I
don't even know I learned? And when you were talking
about thinks when you're talking about the football team, of like,
if I show up as different, then everybody else is
still over here the same. So it's like, now I'm
the outcast. But I think, what what is so cool
that I've seen? And I don't know if you would agree.
I think that as a society and a culture, we're
(26:18):
doing more than ever to create that change because people
are now willing to be an outcast for the greater good. Yeah,
I think that yeah, step one. I think that is
Step one is normalizing the being different. And I think
a lot of improvement has been done in that in
that way. And I don't really care if this ages
(26:39):
me because I don't consider myself old at all. But
like I didn't have social media in my my grade
school upbringing, like throughout high school, like end of high schools,
like right when social media became popular. So now that
social media is just completely enveloped everything and is taken
over everything. Yeah, Like I take a look and I
(26:59):
see so many younger kids. And when I say kids,
I mean like you know, teenagers and above where they
are out maybe and and they have kind of you know,
come out or whatever the circumstance maybe, And granted it
might not be that normal yet, but it's it. We're
getting there, And I think that the visibility to being
different into being yourself is becoming more okay, But I
(27:23):
think it takes a lot more than that. It takes,
like you said, wanting to learn and accept that. But
I think it's just an open mindedness that too many
people are afraid of. Why do you think people are
afraid of? Why doing their acceptance of types of human beings?
I wish I knew the answer too, because then maybe
we could, like I think it kind of goes back
(27:43):
to that challenge thing that we talked about. It's like,
challenging people in the way of opening their mind and
expanding their thoughts is great. But when it's appointed challenge,
as in, this is right, this is wrong, you need
to do this and keep going, then that can be
somewhat to struck dive a little bit. But I think
it's a combination of a lot of things. I won't
(28:04):
say that I have the answer to it, but I
will say that I think people that have not been
challenged to open their thoughts to something else are usually
the ones that end up, you know, not not doing.
So we're gonna go backwards. Yeah, let's go back. Let's go,
let's go back. I want to know when you came out,
what did that look like? And like, who did you
(28:24):
first come out to? Can you walk me through that?
So I'm I'm gonna make up a story. I'm this
kid in college dating women doing the thing fairly, but
you were maybe okay. So I'm, you know, just hanging
(28:44):
out doing my thing, having these feelings in my head.
Then I meet this guy I have feelings for him,
and I'm like, I have to I have to choose myself.
I finally have to choose myself. How did you do that?
I mean, it was definitely difficult. I the way I
went about it, or when I decided that that I
was going to tell people, I made a point to
(29:04):
myself to only tell the people that I truly loved
and that I felt needed to hear directly from me,
because I didn't want to make like a huge And again,
just to kind of like reiterate, I'm not a very
expressive person, Like I do share a good amount on
social media, but I really have a pretty tight circle
of people that I that I like, really that truly
know me, and that's just how I've chosen to live
(29:25):
my life. But the same goes back then, Like I
knew I wanted to tell the people that meant the
most to me to hear it directly from me. So
I told my mom, I told my sisters, and I
told When I told my dad, that's when he decided
that we were no longer speaking. Shut up. But yeah,
and then I told most of my really close friends.
What was the response of your mom and your sisters? Oh,
absolutely So my uncle, my mom's brother, is gay and
(29:47):
he lives in California, and I grew up in Florida
for context, so like he wasn't super prominent in my life.
I kind of wish he was a little bit like
when I look back on it, because I almost feel
like maybe I would have felt more comfortable if I
had had him as a a model. But regardless, I mean,
they were all very accepting, like they were like, we
love you, you know, thank you for sharing that exactly
like you. There were some people to where they were like, oh, well,
(30:10):
yeah I knew you know what I mean, And going
back to that whole like master of disguise thing part
of me, it was just like, no, you didn't like
I was. I was really good at like what do
you mean like kisses one girl all of high school?
Like what do you mean you didn't know I was straight? Girl?
Like I held her hand that one time. So so
(30:33):
it was Dad, like the last person he told. I
don't even know if it was the last person. I
just remember I like went out to lunch with him
one one day and he was like, so you're seeing
any girls or like seeing any women? I don't know
whatever he said, and I was like no, and I
was like, but I am talking to a guy, and
it was yeah, that's where it was. He was just
like not okay, and he was just like what and
(30:56):
he he was just really confused, and then like I
think he it was almost interesting because I'm trying to
like kind of put myself back there. He was like
physically to hurt by that, and he almost kind of
like laughed it off, and then basically it was just like, well,
we're not going to talk about that. That's what he said. Yeah,
Like we like did not discuss it from and then
we just like moved on like eating lunch. That was
(31:19):
it almost as if he like wiped it from his mind.
And then from that point he like when we were
saying goodbye to each other, I remember he was just
like I think he said something around like well I
love you, but I don't support that, and then pretty
much we just like stopped communicating because and also for
context too, like he was not a great guy anyway.
Like That's why I say that it wasn't hard for
(31:41):
me to do to break that relationship because growing up
he used to again, like I didn't have to see
him on any sort of cadence, and so he like
I would call him pretty much like every day when
I would drive to school, I would call him and
that would be like our time for to catch up.
And then you know, we would spend time with each
other whenever we did, but like that was or time.
And then if I forgot one day or if I
(32:02):
was busy or something like that, he would guilt me,
saying like you're the only family I have um because
like his other family like excommunicated him. He's just not Yeah,
he was just not a great guy. And my mom
didn't really interfere either because she again like we can
get into this too, but she was just the exact opposite,
like she wanted me to figure things out for myself
and wanted me to learn, like and she would tell
(32:22):
me her opinion, but then like still be like you know,
I'm like I'm not, I can't be one to tell
you this and that, like I want you to make
your own decision. But anyway, he would like guilt me
for not calling him one day and basically make me
feel like the worst person in the world. So when
I told him and when he decided that I wasn't
you know, good enough to be in his life or
whatever whatever the thought was. I was like, great, thank God,
(32:45):
Like that's what it felt like, that's what I felt.
I no longer have to pretend to be this person
I'm not, and I no longer have to force myself
to be in this relationship that's painful, exactly exactly which
I felt bad for him. But I have not spoken
to him. I I spoke to him once after that.
Has he tried to reach out to you once? Yeah, okay,
you feel bad for him. I feel sadness for you know.
(33:09):
I can't get pass that. Then again too, I mean
it's it's just a relationship at this point where I
just I don't need it or want it. Well, that's
one of those things where I think it's tough because
we're created to desire relationships with our our caregivers, our parents.
And also there's like the story, the fairytale story of
like what a dad is in what a mom is,
and what your parents are, the normative story. I think
(33:33):
by like, biologically we always can have this like desire that,
oh it would have been nice to have X y Z.
But what I hear you saying is that's not what
I had, and what I had didn't feel very good.
So I'm I'm not sad to not have something that
didn't feel good. Yeah, exactly. I mean I feel like
I especially after I moved to Nashville and I really
(33:54):
just started diving into who I am. I really started
to learn, Okay, how do you get rid of things
that don't serve you? How do you really just create
the life that you want to live and surround yourself
with the people that you want to be around. I mean,
I even remember when I first moved here, or even
sometimes in college when I left, like when I was
technically on my own. I guess you could say I
remember having like hesitations around choosing things for myself because
(34:17):
I was like, oh, you know, it's only your choice.
No one's gonna tell you yes or no. Like you
get to do what you want this, I mean, and
that can go for anything. I really don't have like
an example. It's more so just a feeling that I remember,
But yeah, I mean, it's I think it's just it
kind of just goes back to like when you know
what's good for you what you're talking about, which I
(34:38):
think is so cool, and just want to like validate
you a lot, for this is the deepest fears that
a lot of us struggle with, our fear of abandonment
and rejection. And we think about that from an outside perspective.
We don't want to be abandoned by them, we don't
want to be rejected by them. But what you're doing
is you're saying, well, I choose to abandoned myself. I
(35:01):
choose to not reject myself, and in that I believe
that by choosing myself, I will live a life where
I am surrounded by people who will also choose me,
which is so hard for some people to get to
because it's freaking scary. It's scary to choose our true
authentic selves because what I will say is, most of
the time, somebody's true authentic self does not fit into
(35:24):
the normative roles of anything that are out there. But
because we're all playing that game, we all think that
everybody is fitting into that and we're the only ones
that aren't. So it's like such a fucked up cycle.
I think that the definition of what's normal is constantly
changing too, with how in your face everyone's life is,
you know, and also the over edited normality of everything
(35:45):
as well. So like, so you go on social media
and you see someone, whether their photo is photoshoped or not,
or whether they're circumstances different than yours or not, it's
just you label things in your head as well, why
don't I have that? They have this, Why don't I
have that? Why am I this way? There? All that way? Exactly?
There's just so many reasons to question why you're different.
(36:09):
We all want to be accepted, that's the root of it.
We all just want to be accepted. But do we
want to be accepted for this version that fits in
with the norm that's on Instagram or whatever, or that
we grew up with on TV shows, or do I
want to be accepted for this version that feels really good?
It probably feels so good to be able to show
up as yourself fully and people have been like, I
(36:31):
want to be around you, I want to know you more,
I want to be in a relationship with that person
versus I could be this other guy and my dad
could want to be BFF with me, But that doesn't
feel good because I'm rejecting myself every single day. Yeah,
agree with that, And I think going back to your
original point around the whole, like masculinity versus and well, no,
(36:55):
I mean, I just I just want to tie it
back because I feel like it's it's it's just very
relevant and in the rejection piece of like why can't
I be gay and masculine because I really do enjoy
being masculine. That's what I find the most attractive and
other men as masculinity, you know, and that's typically why
I end up being attracted to straight men, which is horrible,
(37:16):
but that's a different story. Um. But anyway, So no,
I mean I think that that's that's just really where
it comes back to because like, Okay, so if I'm
rejecting parts of myself that I've been taught to feel
like our normal but exclusively you know, different, like I
can't be gay and be masculine. I have to choose,
and that would mean you would have to reject a
(37:37):
part of you exactly. And that's and that's where it
comes back to, because yeah, exactly, And so that's why
it's like, Okay, well I'm going to remove myself from
the environment that makes me choose and I'm just going
to be And I think that's really where people sometimes
can't get to because it's like how do you remove
yourself from a circumstance or surrounding or an environment that
(37:58):
only allows you to choose. Yeah, and depending on who
you are and your resources, that I mean, the fear
can be essentially paralyzing. And I think going back to
what the book says about, like why is is being
masculine also perceived as being better than it's not better masculine? Yeah, exactly,
Like I think that it's just a matter of being
(38:19):
and anyone can be it. But I think it's the
it's the like the filters or the walls that are
put up around certain identities, as if there's some barrier
to entry. And I'm stuck on this idea too, though,
because if you just said that if masculine was better,
so everybody is going to be masculine, then our world
is going to be really fucked up because we need
the softness too. I think in anything, you need balance, right, yeah,
(38:43):
you know, but also like the openness for any level
of that balance, So like people should be open to
like a balance of both, but then also either extreme.
I mean, I don't think extreme any any full extreme
is is good in any way. I think of balance
masculin it is to be this big. You don't have
to be like the biggest guy with the biggest muscles,
(39:04):
and you don't have to be like the sweetest, dainty,
little feminine whatever you are. It can be a mixture.
It's a spectrum. Yeah, because, as we've seen time and
time again, lack of either usually shows up in some
way in the negative form. The most masculine man that
doesn't have a soft side will have issues. Yeah. Okay,
(39:24):
so here's the thing. We could talk for four or
five hours, so we'll just have you back. This was
a great This was a great starting conversation for your
continued guest appearance on the show. I'm ready, So thank
you for being here, thank you for letting me ask
all of those questions, thank you for having me, and
thank you for answering the questions. Do you want people
to follow you on Instagram? Okay, so what's your Instagram handle?
(39:46):
It's my first name Max M A X, middle initial T,
and last name Barry B A R R. Y. Okay,
go follow him and be his friend and take my
class and then take his Yeah that I'm just kidding.
We need to do a team teach. You didn't start
with that, I know. We'll do it another one, okay,
all right, well, I will talk to you guys later.
(40:07):
Thank you for listening and being here. If you have
questions for Max or me, send them to Catherinett you
need Therapy podcast dot com and maybe they'll show up
on a Couch Talks episode and have the day you
need to have. O. Goodbye,
Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You
Need Therapy. My name is Kat and I have recorded
this intro about fifteen times, so be with me in
this moment. If you are new, welcome, I'm so glad
you're here. And before we get going, I just want
to give the little disclaimer that this is not therapy.
This is just a podcast where a therapist is talking
(00:30):
about a lot of different things. Before we get into
the episode, I'm like so excited to talk about the episode.
Maybe that's why I keep messing the intro up. But
before we get going, I just want to give a
little shout out to an event that is happening in Nashville,
and it is called the Songs to End All's a
night benefiting the Longest Day in the Alzheimer's Association. It
(00:51):
is a free event. It is on Sunday, June at
Live Oak. The doors open up five. I'm going to
put the links in the show notes. If you want
to be a part of this or just learn more,
you can go there. But it's going to be a
songwriter style night and I'll read some of the people
that are going to be their current artists include Jay Allen,
Kylie Morgan, Zack Stone, Sam do Rosa, Tiger, Lily After, Midtown,
(01:15):
Jason Knicks, Kyle Jacobs just to name a few. There's more.
There's more names. But it's a really cool event and
this causes really dear to my heart. Alzheimer's affects a
lot of people, and it has affected people that I
love and care about, and so I just wanted to
share this event. If you want to learn more again
show notes, go look at them. Now, let's get into it.
God works in mysterious ways. You know, God just like
(01:38):
knows what he's doing sometimes. You know. My guest today
is my friend Max Max Berry, and he is somebody
that I have gotten closer with over the past probably
six months, but I've known for a couple of years.
We've been talking about him coming on the podcast for
a couple of months and then you'll hear in the conversation.
But I was reading this book and I was like,
I want to talk about this with you, and so
(01:59):
we're let's do the podcast, like let's talk about on
the podcast. And it just so happens that we recorded
this and it's Pride Month, which I just means even
more to me that we're doing this on Pride Month
to help support that as well. So again, my my
guest name is Max Barry. He's amazing. He teaches at
Full Ride with me. He's an awesome, awesome fitness instructor
and even more awesome human. And he got very open
(02:23):
with me, and I'm just so grateful for that. He
was very open with me and this conversation, and I
even learned a lot about him through this conversation. And
we just started talking about masculinity and sexuality and and
the problems with toxic masculinity and how it separates people
and creates hierarchies. And he really talked about his experience
(02:46):
of coming out and what that was like. And I
was gonna stop because the episode will do the talking,
but I'm just so happy to have this conversation out there.
I think that this is a conversation for anyone because
what we're talking about at the end of the day
is humanity and we're all a part of that. So
I want to say thank you Max for doing this,
(03:07):
thank you for being open, thank you for being yourself,
and thank you for choosing yourself to choose to be yourself,
because some of us choose to be other people and
we miss out and I don't have to miss out
on you because you've chosen to be yourself, and I
just am really grateful for that because also it's not
easy for us to choose ourselves. So you're gonna love
Max as much as I love Max. So let's not
(03:28):
waste any more time. Here. He is here, I am.
Here's my conversation with my friend Max. All Right, guys,
I have a very special guest, and I don't always
say that. He just said, this is the first podcast
he's ever been on, which is a huge deal. But
he is my friend that I met in February. Well,
(03:49):
I met you a while ago. We actually have known
each other technically for a long time. Yeah, okay, Well,
first of all, this is Max. So I like to
talk about first impressions. So I met you probably two years.
Three years would be three years? It was was it
Sculpts House? Yeah? So yeah, okay. So Max was a
(04:09):
trainer at a studio r I Pate, and I remember
I would only go to Anne Marie's class, and ADDIE's
class would go to her. But I really just was
a stickler for her, which Anne Marie has been on
the podcast before she did an episode on Fitness Culture.
She's were obsessed with her here, right, And I think
(04:31):
that you taught like at eight thirty or something, and
I could go between clients. I don't know. The point
is I went and I was like, Oh, who's this
Max guy? And I left and I texted Anne Marie
and I was like, a Marie, that guy is great.
I was like happy during that and it was a
type of exercise that wasn't my favorite, Like I enjoyed it,
but it wasn't like exciting for me. And I was
(04:53):
like I was smiling, and she was like, yeah, he's great.
And then two years later, now we worked together and
here we are. Here we are so Max works at
full ride with me as an instructor. If you're in
Nashville and you haven't been, come take my class and
then go take this reply correct. We've been talking about
(05:13):
having you on here for a while and kind of like,
I don't really know what we would talk about, Like
we'll figure it out though, because obviously it'll come, it'll come.
And then I was reading this book titled Man Enough
and it's written by Justin Baldoni. So did you know
who this guy? Was he plays Raphael and Jane the Virgin,
and I never really watched that show. Now I'm watching
(05:33):
it and it's actually very good. So he wrote this
book and it's called Man Enough, and it was about
toxic masculinity. And I'm listening to this book. I listened
to it in the morning. I was getting ready and
it felt like I was like hit with like a
ton of bricks on my face as I'm listening to
him describe some of these things and how masculinity is
portrayed and advertised and encouraged in our culture. And I think, I,
(05:58):
did I text you or I talked to you in person?
You mentioned it to me. I think I had seen
that you posted something about it, okay, and I just
was like, I have to talk about this, yea. So
we're talking before. I don't really know how to ask
the questions that are in my head because they're not questions,
they're just like jumbled thoughts. So I think what I
want to start with is one everybody should go read
that book. I don't care if you're a man or not,
(06:19):
I don't care what you are. Go read the book
because it applies to everybody. Let's start with how has
masculinity been defined and shown to you? How have you
experienced it? What does it mean? All of those things?
I mean, it can be taken so many different ways.
I think the way I interpret masculinity is how I
(06:40):
was raised. And for background for people listening my my upbringing,
I mean, my parents divorced when I was four, and
so I lived full time with my mother and then
I have two older sisters, and my dad was still
a part of my life, but there was always a
little bit of a disconnect between us, and that only
(07:02):
grew as I got older. And I always felt a
sense of safety and a sense of security with my
mom and my sister's but with my dad it was
always there was always tension. And so when I think
of masculinity, I think of all the things that he
wished I was that I always resisted against. When you
say tension, say more this hasn't been established yet. But
(07:23):
I'm gay, so I guess that also should be said.
And so grappling with those thoughts before I understood what
they really meant until later in life. I think that
kind of says it all, you know, because I didn't
know who I was, but he was pushing this to
be one way. Yeah, exactly, and clearly there was a resistance,
(07:44):
but I didn't know what it meant or what it was.
How would you describe your dad? Um, we don't speak anymore,
and I'm not upset about it. It's totally fine when
you felt resistant, Like what was that Like? He wanted
you to play football, honestly, as exactly, but it wasn't
football as baseball. That was probably like one of my
earliest memories actually because and this is sort of a
(08:05):
funny story, I was put into t ball when I
was probably five years old or something, and I always
remember this. My dad was always the one that would
push me anytime I would say I don't want to
do this, and he would push me and push me
and push me. And granted, in life there are people
that need to push you to do things that they
know are good for you, but this was a sense
of pride for him, and it was like, I was
(08:26):
a baseball player, you need to be a baseball player.
And also with him having two other daughters and me
the only son and also the youngest in the family,
it was kind of like, I guess in his eyes,
maybe his last chance that like I don't know, I
feel like there's also that that preconceived idea too, for
for those type of men that only get one son,
or even in stories throughout history, it's like the one son,
you know, the sun it's I don't exactly like, I
(08:50):
don't know, there's some stigma around that anyway. So he
put me in t ball, and I I specifically remember
complaining to my mom that my feet were hot, likely
like I'm not kidding, that's literally why I wanted to
quit anyway. So at this point, my mom want to
(09:14):
put me in ballet, and I so wish that she
had done that, because you can you don't have to
wear any shoes. But anyway, so I remember that specifically
that you know five, that was at five years old. Yeah,
I was already just batting heads with him, no pun intended.
That's that's one of my earlier memories of him kind
of just pushing a certain view that he had on me.
(09:35):
And granted, I know there are wait, there are times
where parents need to push their children to do things
that maybe they don't want to do because they are
inexperience and they don't understand what could be good for
them in the in the future. But I guess in
that scenario that just was one example of where I
was right and he was wrong. I like that you're
saying people have to push you. You're not saying like
I don't want to be encouraged and challenge. When I
(09:58):
was growing up, I played played soccer, but because my
family played soccer, but I didn't have to. I remember
my dad saying, I don't care what you do, but
you have to do something. I don't care what you do,
but you have to have a hobby exactly. And you
didn't so much get that from your dad. No, it
wasn't a path of like, I'm an authority figure, I'm
(10:20):
your father. I'm here to coach you and develop you
and challenge you, but I want you to discover that
on your own. It was this is what I know
it's right for you, and this is what you're going
to do right and wrong. So what does that look
like As you grow older and you start to really
actually make sense of like, I don't want to do this,
this doesn't feel like me. As you're starting to make
(10:40):
sense of that, what does that look like? Well? I
think as I grew older, and a lot of children
that that go through a divorce of their parents. I
think most people it's pretty common knowledge that there's some
sort of like government regulation of like you spend this
much time with your mom and this much time with
your dad based on who is the primary parent. I
guess I don't really know the specifics of it. But
we didn't do that for some reason. So I just
(11:02):
saw my dad when I saw him. It wasn't like
you have to go here every other week. When I
was four, all all of my memories have to do
with separated parents and difficulties there. It sounds I guess
that sounds like it could be kind of sad, you know,
But in this I never knew anything else. So it's
not like I feel like I missed anything. But that's
just me personally. I don't know. I don't, I don't really.
(11:23):
I don't relate a feeling of like regret or a
feeling of missing out or anything like that. It's just
because again, like and and we haven't really gotten to
my mom's side. She is like an angel and the
best human ever. So the more I developed into myself
and my identity in my adulthood, I guess you could say,
the further away I moved from my dad. So I
(11:43):
don't know if this is jumping around, but I would
like to know. I would like to know this from
personally myself and just for the essence of the conversation.
But as a kid, because my experience is what I've
always seen is always what I felt, So there has
never been any confusion, right, So as a kid, what
does that look like? And what does that feel like?
And what goes on when you're like, Okay, I see
(12:06):
mom and dad and mom and dad and boyfriend and
girlfriend and this and that and what is that? And
then you start to I don't fit in with this
or that, and how do you then you mean of
like other people when I would see that. I guess
what I'm trying to say is like, I've never had
to be confused of like why I don't feel like
this is me because it's always been what I feel like.
So what does that feel like? When you're I don't
(12:27):
even know if you can describe this, but when you're like,
but wait a second, that doesn't feel like me. What
does that mean? How old were you when you remember
feeling that? And then how do you actually figure out
what that even is? That makes sense? It does it does. Yeah,
I think the conversation that happens inside your own head
is really difficult to separate. I guess you know, when
(12:49):
you think about talking to yourself about something, when you
when you think about that rationally, then like a conversation
is between two people, right, So if you think about
talking to yourself, then are you splitting yourself into two
pop you know, It's like, but that's that's kind of
what you have to think, at least to rationalize that.
That's how I think of it. Right, So, as I'm
growing up, there's this side of me that I don't understand,
(13:11):
but that I feel resistance towards. And so as I
get older and as I'm able to develop, and is
that the true side of you? Yes, essentially that's what
I would assume. It would be the resistant side as
you get older and as you become more independent. And
I think a lot of this has to do with
like coming out and and you know, really just standing
in yourself and knowing who you are, because once you
(13:34):
get the closer you get to that, the more the
resistance of your past starts to make sense. So when
were you like, Okay, I'm gay. Was there a moment yeah,
there was. It was twenty fifteen was when I like
came out. I mean I definitely like knew that I
was interested in then Before that, I just didn't want
(13:54):
to accept it for a long time. But so this
was my sophomore year of college. I had medical that
I just had like intense feelings for and it clicked
in my head for some reason. I think at that
point where I was just like, Okay, I really like
this person and unless I decide that like this is
who I am, then I'm going to have to let
go or I won't be able to pursue him. And
(14:16):
it was kind of that at that time where I
was just like, Okay, I feel so strongly about you.
Hold up, because that means you've lived into your as
a straight male and that's not actually how you felt.
And I know so many people that have it takes
even longer than that. I guess maybe it's selfish of me,
but I'm like, I thought you were going to say,
(14:37):
like when you're twelve, because I wish that was. But
maybe that's that's my own stuff. But I think that
that ties back to what we started the conversation with
of like why it took me that long. Okay, so
then tell me the difference between the resistance you've felt. Yeah,
how do we go back to that? Yeah? Well, I
think because why does anyone not say it? Why does
(14:57):
why does any person? And this is not just men,
This is not just women, This is anyone whatever you
identify as. This could be anything regardless of sexuality. It's
like anything that's not the norm exactly, or anything that
has been pushed on you by people that you trust
or are supposed to look up to, and it's not
And again, like I we started off with the with
(15:19):
the relationship with my dad, which obviously everyone can tell
is not great, But it wasn't just him. It was
a lot of male figures in my life. And even
to this day, I'm not kidding, Like even today, I
can I can name a time where I felt uncomfortable
with like straight mail. It's just something that is ingrained
in me a little bit. And I think that that
(15:40):
just has a lot to do with with how I
was brought up. But to tie it back though, I
think it's just you know, like you said, what's the norm?
And like based on my upbringing, the things and the
people that I was around, and the way of thought
and I and I grew up in the South, like
very conservative, very religious in a lot of ways, So
just the ideas that are instilled upon you just don't
(16:03):
allow for something like that to be. Okay, what the
story that I'm making up in my head is the
thought in your head is I have to be this
way or blank? So what would the blank be? I
have to show up as this way or shame an embarrassment? Okay,
at least that's how I rationalize it. Like I like,
(16:24):
I'm trying to put myself in in my prior to
coming out shoes, and I think to myself, like, what
would it feel like to to do this sooner? Like
high school? Max? Yeah, And that's that's what I'm thinking,
is like high school me like if I had just
told everyone like what what? What? What would happen? And
I don't know. I'm a firm believer where it's like
I don't regret anything in life. I don't. I don't
(16:47):
wish that I did things differently because I trust that
how things have happened have made me who I am now.
But I do think back and I'm like, Okay, what
would the consequences have been? And I think a lot
of it has to do with how strong you are
as an individual. And I think that based on your
upbringing and being told that it's not okay or that
it's weird or that it's wrong. In the comments you
(17:09):
must have heard from people that you were close to.
Because let's go back to this the book that I'm
listening to, the author Justin Baldonni wrote he was talking
about a story of him trying to prove his masculinity
to his friends when he was younger, maybe middle school,
high school, and the names he was called when he
didn't show up. I'm totally butchering this the actual story,
(17:32):
So go read the book, but this is the essence
of it. The names that he was called when he
wasn't showing up as your stereotypical strong, brave man doing
strong brave man things was stuff like female body parts
and and gay, which then he's talking about. So it's like,
you're either a man or you're gay. You can't be both.
(17:56):
Like I specifically remember too in high school, I I
tried to be on the football team that I regret
that I say, I regret not not one of my
best ideas. I just didn't understand any of it. And
there was a part of it too, like we had
what they called hell week where literally and I went
(18:18):
to like a boarding school. I mean it was a
day school obviously, but then there were there was also
borders and so we would live on our campus for
a week and do like literally three days. This was
before hazing was not okay and there were policies put
into place to like not allow them. Like it was
like straight up full on hazing for a week and
(18:41):
I remember just counting the days the and it was
literally a week, but I was but I was, like
I hated it so much, and a lot of it
was just it was toxic masculinity. It was all these
men and boys, I don't't even call them men but
boys on the on the football team that we're older,
and it was this concept of like, well we went
through it, so you have to and like just all
(19:02):
of these things and just they're so proud of themselves
for being so aggressive and angry and mean, like and
that's what being a man exactly. And I think from
a very young age, I just I was always in
my head. I was always just questioning it. I was
always just like why this is so dumb, like why
are you so proud of this? Like why do you
feel this way? Why do you act this way? And
(19:23):
why is that good? And what I feel is bad? Exactly?
But I but but it again, it's like majority rules,
you know, And if you put yourself in an environment
where the majority believe in act that way, and you're
the outsider and you're the like the minority there, then
obviously you're not going to be listened to or cared for.
That's another experience that I remember going through and throughout
(19:44):
my life. I think I think being this way and
feeling this way definitely aged me quicker than most too,
because I was constantly evaluating other people and questioning why
I felt different or questioning why I didn't why I
wasn't the way that other people were. You have to
become super intelligent in one aspect, right because you are
your resilient in the fact that I'm going to make
sure that I do fit in that I do find
(20:07):
I want to call it belonging, but true belonging isn't
fitting in. But you had to find a way to
survive with the internal dialogue you're having. Yeah, I think
you just become a master of disguise in a way,
you know, And that's truly the best way I can
explain it. I definitely don't look back on my entire
childhood or upbringing or anything prior to coming out, And
(20:29):
I don't look at it as if I was a
victim in any way. I really don't. Granted, I wish
I didn't have to go through some of those things,
but I definitely feel like in life, whether it's this
experience or anything, going through hard things, doing hard things
makes you tougher and stronger and and gives you that
life experience to then go and teach others things that
you may have learned from it. I mean, we say
(20:50):
this all the time, Like you you don't the biggest
lessons you learn are from usually failure or low points,
you know, when it's traumatic. I don't necessarily think that
that's something that I should be like. I'm not promoting that.
I'm not saying like, oh, I wish like I think
everyone should go through this. I don't, but you grow
through valley, But I do think that you grow through
low points, and so like that's how I've just chosen
to look at everything. But the master of Disguise thing
(21:13):
I think to your point, like when it's a method
of survival, yes, you put on this front and most
people that have been through this experience or something similar
can relate to this that you just become something else
and so then you're kind of leading to different lives.
And that's why it's such a freeing feeling. That's why
coming out is kind of described as a freedom, free
(21:33):
to be who I am. Like, I think it's that
freeing feeling because you're letting go of some of this
person that you've tried to be for so long, Like
that person kind of holds you captive, it holds the
other part of your captive. I have two questions. I
want to start with this one. So you can't see
Max at all, you can hear him, you can look
(21:54):
me up. I want to make sure this question comes
out right because in my head it makes sense. And
you've mentioned when we've been out before, like hanging out,
that it's hard for you to date sometimes because people
can't look at you and know that you're gay. Right,
people look at you and assume you're straight. Is that
a fair sometimes? If I'm dancing, okay, so if we're
(22:18):
just standing straight up, well even I don't think people
could tell at like I didn't know when I met you.
I have no idea. I'm not the most expressive person. Yeah,
I think this is This is where I'm getting to
my question. If it's a question, maybe it's a whatever,
going back to like you can't be masculine and gay.
(22:39):
That whole thing kind of pissed me off. And I
don't know if that's just my feelings because I look
at you and I would say that you are masculine
and you're gay. But because you're masculine and you can't
be gay, or if you're gay, you can't be masculine, right,
They're not mutually. It shouldn't be an either or thing,
I think, I think, and I think that we're moving
in that direction. I think that the idea that someone
(23:00):
is surprised that the two can co exist is really
what needs to be unraveled in society, is that people
shouldn't be shocked by that, you know, And sometimes I
take a look at this and I really think that
it just comes down to a fact of like people
or people and who whatever they are and whoever they
are and however they are, is just is just that
there shouldn't be any added level of confusion or or
(23:23):
questioning around it. That's just I'm just saying that as
like an umbrella thought. But to dive into that a
little bit deeper, I think, yeah, they just they shouldn't
be two separate things. How's that shown up for you
or affected you? Or has that fact that people it's
like one or the other? Do you have feelings about it?
I have, Yeah, Well I think it's and I think
it goes back to what the preconceived notion of being
(23:46):
gay means, you know, like what you were talking about
about how how it is addressed as being feminine. So
when that story was being told, it was being a
woman and being and being gay is not masculine, and
being masculine is better than being those things, and so
(24:06):
those things are less than And that's the thing that's
really frustrating is why is one better than the First
of all, they're not being games is that different? But
the other thing is this idea of being this masculine
man isn't the greatest achievement in the world, But then
everybody else is below them, and that what is what
I think is messed up. Because women can have masculine traits.
(24:29):
Men can have feminine traits. It doesn't make them one
or the other. Goes to your point is people are
just people and that's what it is, absolutely well, I think,
And if you break this down, I mean, I'm I'm
no scientist or I'm not, you know, biologically not surprised,
like I don't understand that. But like even down to
that aspect of it, like men have estrogen, women have testosterone.
Like it's not it shouldn't be a one or the other.
(24:51):
There should be a combined balance of both. And I
think that that's just generally something that isn't really talked
about if you look back in history. I mean the
idea that a king is higher than a queen. And
in a sense, you know what I mean, it's like
it's like that concept that is that has prevailed through
history that the male figure is higher or more than
(25:11):
or better than the female. That's taught to us throughout history,
whether or not it's instilled in us when we're raised
by our parents or whoever were raised by, but it
is taught to us in history that that's a concept,
and so subconsciously it becomes a belief, which then you
have to either unbelieve or you you kind of attack
everything that you view in life with that filter. And
(25:34):
I think, what, yeah, yeah, that was great that it
has been taught to us. All this stuff has been
taught to us. We believe it because it's what's been
taught to us. What you experienced, You were being shoved
in one direction, trying to be taught this one way
of living. Everything is being taught to us. The cool
thing is we can unlearn things that we have to
also want to. I grew up in the South, very sheltered,
one looking one way, and I've had to put effort
(25:57):
into like, Okay, how do I unlearned things that I
don't even know I learned? And when you were talking
about thinks when you're talking about the football team, of like,
if I show up as different, then everybody else is
still over here the same. So it's like, now I'm
the outcast. But I think, what what is so cool
that I've seen? And I don't know if you would agree.
I think that as a society and a culture, we're
(26:18):
doing more than ever to create that change because people
are now willing to be an outcast for the greater good. Yeah,
I think that yeah, step one. I think that is
Step one is normalizing the being different. And I think
a lot of improvement has been done in that in
that way. And I don't really care if this ages
(26:39):
me because I don't consider myself old at all. But
like I didn't have social media in my my grade
school upbringing, like throughout high school, like end of high schools,
like right when social media became popular. So now that
social media is just completely enveloped everything and is taken
over everything. Yeah, Like I take a look and I
(26:59):
see so many younger kids. And when I say kids,
I mean like you know, teenagers and above where they
are out maybe and and they have kind of you know,
come out or whatever the circumstance maybe, And granted it
might not be that normal yet, but it's it. We're
getting there, And I think that the visibility to being
different into being yourself is becoming more okay, But I
(27:23):
think it takes a lot more than that. It takes,
like you said, wanting to learn and accept that. But
I think it's just an open mindedness that too many
people are afraid of. Why do you think people are
afraid of? Why doing their acceptance of types of human beings?
I wish I knew the answer too, because then maybe
we could, like I think it kind of goes back
(27:43):
to that challenge thing that we talked about. It's like,
challenging people in the way of opening their mind and
expanding their thoughts is great. But when it's appointed challenge,
as in, this is right, this is wrong, you need
to do this and keep going, then that can be
somewhat to struck dive a little bit. But I think
it's a combination of a lot of things. I won't
(28:04):
say that I have the answer to it, but I
will say that I think people that have not been
challenged to open their thoughts to something else are usually
the ones that end up, you know, not not doing.
So we're gonna go backwards. Yeah, let's go back. Let's go,
let's go back. I want to know when you came out,
what did that look like? And like, who did you
(28:24):
first come out to? Can you walk me through that?
So I'm I'm gonna make up a story. I'm this
kid in college dating women doing the thing fairly, but
you were maybe okay. So I'm, you know, just hanging
(28:44):
out doing my thing, having these feelings in my head.
Then I meet this guy I have feelings for him,
and I'm like, I have to I have to choose myself.
I finally have to choose myself. How did you do that?
I mean, it was definitely difficult. I the way I
went about it, or when I decided that that I
was going to tell people, I made a point to
(29:04):
myself to only tell the people that I truly loved
and that I felt needed to hear directly from me,
because I didn't want to make like a huge And again,
just to kind of like reiterate, I'm not a very
expressive person, Like I do share a good amount on
social media, but I really have a pretty tight circle
of people that I that I like, really that truly
know me, and that's just how I've chosen to live
(29:25):
my life. But the same goes back then, Like I
knew I wanted to tell the people that meant the
most to me to hear it directly from me. So
I told my mom, I told my sisters, and I
told When I told my dad, that's when he decided
that we were no longer speaking. Shut up. But yeah,
and then I told most of my really close friends.
What was the response of your mom and your sisters? Oh,
absolutely So my uncle, my mom's brother, is gay and
(29:47):
he lives in California, and I grew up in Florida
for context, so like he wasn't super prominent in my life.
I kind of wish he was a little bit like
when I look back on it, because I almost feel
like maybe I would have felt more comfortable if I
had had him as a a model. But regardless, I mean,
they were all very accepting, like they were like, we
love you, you know, thank you for sharing that exactly
like you. There were some people to where they were like, oh, well,
(30:10):
yeah I knew you know what I mean, And going
back to that whole like master of disguise thing part
of me, it was just like, no, you didn't like
I was. I was really good at like what do
you mean like kisses one girl all of high school?
Like what do you mean you didn't know I was straight? Girl?
Like I held her hand that one time. So so
(30:33):
it was Dad, like the last person he told. I
don't even know if it was the last person. I
just remember I like went out to lunch with him
one one day and he was like, so you're seeing
any girls or like seeing any women? I don't know
whatever he said, and I was like no, and I
was like, but I am talking to a guy, and
it was yeah, that's where it was. He was just
like not okay, and he was just like what and
(30:56):
he he was just really confused, and then like I
think he it was almost interesting because I'm trying to
like kind of put myself back there. He was like
physically to hurt by that, and he almost kind of
like laughed it off, and then basically it was just like, well,
we're not going to talk about that. That's what he said. Yeah,
Like we like did not discuss it from and then
we just like moved on like eating lunch. That was
(31:19):
it almost as if he like wiped it from his mind.
And then from that point he like when we were
saying goodbye to each other, I remember he was just
like I think he said something around like well I
love you, but I don't support that, and then pretty
much we just like stopped communicating because and also for
context too, like he was not a great guy anyway.
Like That's why I say that it wasn't hard for
(31:41):
me to do to break that relationship because growing up
he used to again, like I didn't have to see
him on any sort of cadence, and so he like
I would call him pretty much like every day when
I would drive to school, I would call him and
that would be like our time for to catch up.
And then you know, we would spend time with each
other whenever we did, but like that was or time.
And then if I forgot one day or if I
(32:02):
was busy or something like that, he would guilt me,
saying like you're the only family I have um because
like his other family like excommunicated him. He's just not Yeah,
he was just not a great guy. And my mom
didn't really interfere either because she again like we can
get into this too, but she was just the exact opposite,
like she wanted me to figure things out for myself
and wanted me to learn, like and she would tell
(32:22):
me her opinion, but then like still be like you know,
I'm like I'm not, I can't be one to tell
you this and that, like I want you to make
your own decision. But anyway, he would like guilt me
for not calling him one day and basically make me
feel like the worst person in the world. So when
I told him and when he decided that I wasn't
you know, good enough to be in his life or
whatever whatever the thought was. I was like, great, thank God,
(32:45):
Like that's what it felt like, that's what I felt.
I no longer have to pretend to be this person
I'm not, and I no longer have to force myself
to be in this relationship that's painful, exactly exactly which
I felt bad for him. But I have not spoken
to him. I I spoke to him once after that.
Has he tried to reach out to you once? Yeah, okay,
you feel bad for him. I feel sadness for you know.
(33:09):
I can't get pass that. Then again too, I mean
it's it's just a relationship at this point where I
just I don't need it or want it. Well, that's
one of those things where I think it's tough because
we're created to desire relationships with our our caregivers, our parents.
And also there's like the story, the fairytale story of
like what a dad is in what a mom is,
and what your parents are, the normative story. I think
(33:33):
by like, biologically we always can have this like desire that,
oh it would have been nice to have X y Z.
But what I hear you saying is that's not what
I had, and what I had didn't feel very good.
So I'm I'm not sad to not have something that
didn't feel good. Yeah, exactly. I mean I feel like
I especially after I moved to Nashville and I really
(33:54):
just started diving into who I am. I really started
to learn, Okay, how do you get rid of things
that don't serve you? How do you really just create
the life that you want to live and surround yourself
with the people that you want to be around. I mean,
I even remember when I first moved here, or even
sometimes in college when I left, like when I was
technically on my own. I guess you could say I
remember having like hesitations around choosing things for myself because
(34:17):
I was like, oh, you know, it's only your choice.
No one's gonna tell you yes or no. Like you
get to do what you want this, I mean, and
that can go for anything. I really don't have like
an example. It's more so just a feeling that I remember,
But yeah, I mean, it's I think it's just it
kind of just goes back to like when you know
what's good for you what you're talking about, which I
(34:38):
think is so cool, and just want to like validate
you a lot, for this is the deepest fears that
a lot of us struggle with, our fear of abandonment
and rejection. And we think about that from an outside perspective.
We don't want to be abandoned by them, we don't
want to be rejected by them. But what you're doing
is you're saying, well, I choose to abandoned myself. I
(35:01):
choose to not reject myself, and in that I believe
that by choosing myself, I will live a life where
I am surrounded by people who will also choose me,
which is so hard for some people to get to
because it's freaking scary. It's scary to choose our true
authentic selves because what I will say is, most of
the time, somebody's true authentic self does not fit into
(35:24):
the normative roles of anything that are out there. But
because we're all playing that game, we all think that
everybody is fitting into that and we're the only ones
that aren't. So it's like such a fucked up cycle.
I think that the definition of what's normal is constantly
changing too, with how in your face everyone's life is,
you know, and also the over edited normality of everything
(35:45):
as well. So like, so you go on social media
and you see someone, whether their photo is photoshoped or not,
or whether they're circumstances different than yours or not, it's
just you label things in your head as well, why
don't I have that? They have this, Why don't I
have that? Why am I this way? There? All that way? Exactly?
There's just so many reasons to question why you're different.
(36:09):
We all want to be accepted, that's the root of it.
We all just want to be accepted. But do we
want to be accepted for this version that fits in
with the norm that's on Instagram or whatever, or that
we grew up with on TV shows, or do I
want to be accepted for this version that feels really good?
It probably feels so good to be able to show
up as yourself fully and people have been like, I
(36:31):
want to be around you, I want to know you more,
I want to be in a relationship with that person
versus I could be this other guy and my dad
could want to be BFF with me, But that doesn't
feel good because I'm rejecting myself every single day. Yeah,
agree with that, And I think going back to your
original point around the whole, like masculinity versus and well, no,
(36:55):
I mean, I just I just want to tie it
back because I feel like it's it's it's just very
relevant and in the rejection piece of like why can't
I be gay and masculine because I really do enjoy
being masculine. That's what I find the most attractive and
other men as masculinity, you know, and that's typically why
I end up being attracted to straight men, which is horrible,
(37:16):
but that's a different story. Um. But anyway, So no,
I mean I think that that's that's just really where
it comes back to because like, Okay, so if I'm
rejecting parts of myself that I've been taught to feel
like our normal but exclusively you know, different, like I
can't be gay and be masculine. I have to choose,
and that would mean you would have to reject a
(37:37):
part of you exactly. And that's and that's where it
comes back to, because yeah, exactly, And so that's why
it's like, Okay, well I'm going to remove myself from
the environment that makes me choose and I'm just going
to be And I think that's really where people sometimes
can't get to because it's like how do you remove
yourself from a circumstance or surrounding or an environment that
(37:58):
only allows you to choose. Yeah, and depending on who
you are and your resources, that I mean, the fear
can be essentially paralyzing. And I think going back to
what the book says about, like why is is being
masculine also perceived as being better than it's not better masculine? Yeah, exactly,
Like I think that it's just a matter of being
(38:19):
and anyone can be it. But I think it's the
it's the like the filters or the walls that are
put up around certain identities, as if there's some barrier
to entry. And I'm stuck on this idea too, though,
because if you just said that if masculine was better,
so everybody is going to be masculine, then our world
is going to be really fucked up because we need
the softness too. I think in anything, you need balance, right, yeah,
(38:43):
you know, but also like the openness for any level
of that balance, So like people should be open to
like a balance of both, but then also either extreme.
I mean, I don't think extreme any any full extreme
is is good in any way. I think of balance
masculin it is to be this big. You don't have
to be like the biggest guy with the biggest muscles,
(39:04):
and you don't have to be like the sweetest, dainty,
little feminine whatever you are. It can be a mixture.
It's a spectrum. Yeah, because, as we've seen time and
time again, lack of either usually shows up in some
way in the negative form. The most masculine man that
doesn't have a soft side will have issues. Yeah. Okay,
(39:24):
so here's the thing. We could talk for four or
five hours, so we'll just have you back. This was
a great This was a great starting conversation for your
continued guest appearance on the show. I'm ready, So thank
you for being here, thank you for letting me ask
all of those questions, thank you for having me, and
thank you for answering the questions. Do you want people
to follow you on Instagram? Okay, so what's your Instagram handle?
(39:46):
It's my first name Max M A X, middle initial T,
and last name Barry B A R R. Y. Okay,
go follow him and be his friend and take my
class and then take his Yeah that I'm just kidding.
We need to do a team teach. You didn't start
with that, I know. We'll do it another one, okay,
all right, well, I will talk to you guys later.
(40:07):
Thank you for listening and being here. If you have
questions for Max or me, send them to Catherinett you
need Therapy podcast dot com and maybe they'll show up
on a Couch Talks episode and have the day you
need to have. O. Goodbye,
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