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August 2, 2021 50 mins

This week is an exciting week at You Need Therapy. Kat (@kat.defatta) has an eye opening conversation with Kaisa Keranen (@kaisafit) who founded Just move (@justmove). Kaisa is a personal trainer, fitness educator and social media influencer known for her fun and innovative ways to get people moving. She graduated from the University of Washington where she was a member of the Track and Field team and later went on to get her Masters in Exercise Science, Sports Performance and Injury Prevention.

The confusion around body positivity and what it really means and looks like has been something Kat has been wanting to address for a while now and Kaisa was the PERFECT human to broach this topic with. Your eyes will be open and your heart with be thankful when you hear what Kaisa has to say about how self love and body positivity is postured in our current culture.

Throughout this conversation Kaisa and Kat also talk about how movement saved and changed Kaisa’s life and how her dream of being a social worker transformed into her teaching people how to move and care for themselves well at any and all levels. 

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of
You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Cat. I am
the host here and welcome everybody, new, old, kind of new,
kind of old. Welcome everybody. I am so glad that
you specifically are here today because we have a treat

for you. Now, before we get into that, I just
want to remind everybody that, yeah, I am a therapist.
I'm a therapist who works in Nashville owns a private practice. However,
this podcast is not a replacement for a therapy. It's
more of a springboard. It's a place that you come
where you might hear conversations and you might start to think,
and it might encourage you to go experience your own

therapeutic process with a therapist. But this right here is
not that. But it can't help get you there. Now,
I just want to get to this because I have
literally really not being able to stop talking about this
conversation since it happened. I don't remember the last time
I've been so excited about putting content out, and I
usually I'm pretty excited about the content I put out
for real, and um my guest today is somebody who

I really have begun to look up to and now
look up to even more. And she's somebody you might
have seen me post about on Instagram because her content
is so good that she puts out there. Her name
is Kaisa and she is a personal trainer, if fitness educator,
and a social media influencer who's known for the way
she gets people moving. Um. Getting people moving is her

goal and her life's mission and I can't wait for
you guys to hear about why and how she does it.
She graduated from University of Washington and she was a
member of the track and field team there, and she
also has her masters in Exercise Science, Sports Performance and
Injury Prevention. So she's super like educated and that's one
of the reasons I love her. She's not just somebody

who decided it would be fun to go like talk
about certain things and do a certain thing. She like
is really smart and she really knows what she's doing.
And her actual goal is to get people to move,
not to exercise, not to lose weight, not to get
fit or whatever that means. Her goal was to get
people to move, and her reasons behind her goals, the

why behind what she does is so freaking amazing and
I cannot wait for you guys to hear her talk.
You'll hear how I discovered her. But I've been following
her for a couple of months now and I can't
get enough of one the badass workouts that she posts
because she's freaking incredible, and the honest and real and
true content she puts out. She was very vulnerable with

me in the best way in our conversation. And keep
in mind, this was the first time we met virtually
via zoom and we just went there, and she also
challenged me and really made me think. And this has
been an eye opening conversation for me as well, which
I will forever be grateful for. She also has a

platform called Just Move, and we talked about it in
the conversation, but I want to encourage anyone and everyone
to follow them on Instagram and look into the program
and the platform. She'll talk about it, but I just
wanted to up top side as well, So if you
follow at just Move, you can follow that platform, and
then her Instagram is at Kaisa fit so k A

I s A F I T so to you, Kaisa,
thank you for being yourself. I know I told you
that like a million times but thank you for bringing yourself,
thank you for taking the time to have this conversation
with me, And to everybody out there listening, get ready
because this is a conversation you're gonna want to listen
to way more than one time. And I'm excited to

listen to it again. Not because anything I said, but
because she is a smart human and she has somebody
who has a lot of goals to change and and
restructure some of the ways that the health and wellness
industry is work. And I have full faith that she
is going to be because I'm telling you there will
be changed. She is going to be one of the

reasons that that happens. So again, thank you, and guys,
I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna let you guys listen to this.
So here is my conversation with Kaisa. Thank you for
being here. Welcome, Welcome, Thank you. I'm so exciting. Usually
I know the people that I am interviewing on here today,
I'm getting to know our guest as you're getting to

know our guest, um, And so what I wanted to
do is give you a second because I obviously reached
out and asked for you to come on here because
I've seen a lot of your content on Instagram, and
you are a person that I believe that I align
with a lot of what you're putting out there. I'm
grateful that you're doing that. So my understanding is your

passion and your life's work right now is in movement
and getting people moving in a way that works for them,
not in a way that is supposed to be the
right way that's promoted on in certain areas of life.
So I would just like to start with your background, like,
I want to know what got you into this, specifically
fitness and movement, and then where you developed the philosophy

that I see you operating out of, because again, it
aligns very much with my beliefs. That's not how I
grew up and it's not the majority of what is
out there. So can you just walk us into that
well hello that U? Yeah, I think and definitely as
we have a conversation today, more of the story will unravel.

But the truth for me is that movement saved my
life in high school, Like you know, I went through
some really hard times and I ended up finding sports
and it was really the thing that helped me want
to live. And so when I went through that. I eventually,
um did track and field in college. Never had any like,
not even an ounce of interest of becoming a trainer.

What I wanted to do was i'me a social worker.
So for me, I knew I had been through some
really really dark times, and I knew that, like what
was really important to me was to take those dark
times and hopefully work with others. I didn't realize that
movement would be the tool that I got to use
to work with people and to help people through their
dark times or you know, through any time. Um. And

so eventually it led me to like, you know what
I'm doing today, which is trying to get the world
to move, but ultimately, movement is the tool that I
use to try to help people get connected to themselves,
feel empowered in who they are, um, and just like
live a healthier, happier life. And so for me, movement
is really just a tool. It's not the thing I

think that's amazing. So you set out and you're like,
I'm going to be a social worker because of that
background of like I want to help people and help
people live a fuller, essentially better life. Did you go
to school for social work or whatever? Happened. How did
that transition? Okay, so I technically went to school for
track and feel. Let's just be very So I went

to the University of Washington. I got my degree in
social studies. But I didn't realize until my senior like
in your junior and senior years when the class has
become very interesting. And this is when I was like,
I really enjoy learning about people, and my past and
my experiences started coming out and I realized, like, there's
for me. The connection with people was something that I

was missing when I was going through my hard time,
and it was something like I really wanted to be,
I guess, for lack of a better world, like a
coach and a cheerleader in a support system. I really
wanted to be that. So when I graduated from college,
I was really injured and I was in the middle
of trying to figure out what I was gonna do,
and a good friend of mine said, you should really
interview social workers, like you should really interview people in

the field of work that you want to go into,
just to make sure that you want to go back
and get your masters in this. And I had one
of the most incredible conversations with a woman, and essentially
she kindly told me, like, if you're not somebody that
can separate your work life and your pride that life,
this will eat you alive. Like this is this is
really not the field for you. And I'm not like
anything that happens in my life, whether it's work or not,

like I take home and I take on. So I
thought about that long and heart, and while I was
in the process of trying to figure out what I
wanted to do, I was meanning and the woman that
I was meaning for asked me just to teach a
boot camp and so all of these things unfolded, and
so whatever higher power you believe in like totally had
a path for me and was like, no, we still

want you to work with people. I just want you
to do it a different way. I mean, it makes
sense that automatic is like I'm gonna go do this job.
I'm gonna be a therapist, I'm gonna be a counselor,
I'm gonna be a social worker. I'm gonna be I
don't know, a nurse or whatever. And I believe fully
in my heart that you can help people if you
are the mailman, like you can help people no matter
what you do, but it's identifying how is it that

I want to help people? Because what I see from
just your presence on social media is the kindness, the caringness,
and then like brightness. And I'll get more into it,
but there's a couple of videos and that I've watched
of yours, and it's you can tell that you, like,
aren't just happy all the time, because there are some
videos that you aren't expressing just happiness, but you are

passionate about connecting with people or helping people connect to
themselves or speaking truth. I'm saying all this for anybody
who's listening, because we've talked a lot of bit about
it on the show of Your Job What you do,
Like the title doesn't have to necessarily dictate really what
you're doing because you're you're a trainer, but you are

changing people's lives. Yeah, I mean, and I think everything.
For me, I feel like my experience has allowed me
to go to a place that I really can resonate
with people. You know, when when you've been through really
really dark times, like you can resonate with people going
through dark things. And I think like I no longer
have a fear of talking about that I no longer have,

you know, I think it was maybe five years ago
that I first like voice even to my mother about
what I went through. So like now I'm very out there.
I'm willing to be very vulnerable and authentic about like
the things that I've gone through because I feel like
at some point in time, if there's one person that
resonates or here's that thing and understands because social media
is it's great and it's also evil, everybody could look

at what I'm doing and be like, oh, this is
this happy girl that just smiles for life must just
be so great, and it's it wasn't and it's not,
and it's always hard times. And it's the tools that
I have gained along the way and the connections and
the human beings that allow me to keep moving forward.
And so I think for me, like that's always been
very important with what I do on social what I've
put out there, to just be very real about it.

Would you mind going into some of that because I
don't know specifics of that, Like I've obviously know that
your life is not perfect, because nobody's life is perfect,
but I would love to know as much as you're
willing of like what kind of stuff you've been through
and how how you use that as maybe a tool
to do the work that you're doing. I've always been
an athlete. I've never really been committed until high school.

I was never committed to a single sport. I just
I knew that movement was really important to me when
I got to high school. I went to my very
very tiny private school to a very big public school
until high school. My freshman year was really difficult. There
were things for me that we're going on at home,
there were things at high school, and I just I
remember partway through my freshman year like I did not

want to live anymore. Like I was like, I really
I don't want to be here. And so I remember thinking,
and the thing is, it's like I have a story
about this and the videos out there, and I'm like,
I don't know why I talked about this so much,
and I still get emotional about it. But I remember
thinking I have to find a reason to live because
if I actually died, I would kill my mom as well,
like I have. There's there's four of us siblings, and

I was like, this is not this wouldn't be fair
to my mother. Wouldn't be fair to my siblings. So
I at the time was really into soccer. And so
if I thought about my life and I thought about
you know, a lot of it was really dark for me.
The one thing that was a light was soccer, and
it was mint, it was sports. And so I don't
have a good memory, but I remember this like it

was yesterday. I just told myself, like, you are going
to play soccer and practice soccer and do that seven
until you work through this. Because if you can keep
going to the light, if you can keep going to
the thing that brings you some ounds of happiness, you
will make it through this. And so that's what I did,
and so I eventually became like, you know, the star
soccer player, and I actually didn't go on to play talker.

I went on to do track and field instead, and
I worked through it. But the thing was, it was
movement that saved my life. And it was the ability
that I had to kind of like check out from
the world and check into myself. And that's honestly the
reason why I'm here today. One thank you for sharing
that with me and with us. I mean, that is
some kind of resilience in there that is some kind
of like higher power resilience for you to have that

voice that says I have to find something. I have
to find something, because I think what we do a
lot of times in those moments is we do focus
on all the reasons that we wouldn't want to live.
And for people that don't know what that feeling is like,
it might not make as much sense. But that is
a strong experience to have. And so for you to

be able to sit and what is going right? What
do I enjoy? I don't enjoy a lot of this stuff.
That is some kind of special resilience. And so really
what I want to know is playing soccer over and
over one I've grew up playing soccer. So I love
you actually now and soccer has been a little bit
a part of my story too, but in a different way.
But as you continue to dive in deeper to that,

I'm going to dive in deeper too. I'm gonna show
up more, I'm gonna practice more, I'm gonna get more
committed to this. Was it the experience of moving your
body and all of that that you think changed you,
or was it what came with the experience of moving
your body? This is an awesome question. So for me,
the thing was the outside world looked at like, Wow,

you just love this sport. You love soccer, You're all
about it, and I just kept being like, it's not
about soccer, Like, it's literally about the moment that I
get to have what myself and it happens to be
soccer because that happened to be the sport that I
was doing at the time when I made the commitment
to myself to stay alive. It wasn't soccer. It was
the fact that I could go somewhere by myself, work

on this thing and honestly, like gain a better connection
with myself, like work through stuff. It was really therapy.
And I was thirteen. How old are you when you're
a freshman in high school? I was twelve or thirteen.
I didn't have the knowledge or the skill set or
anything to say one that I needed help because at
that age, like I didn't even know how to ask

for help and to the only thing that I knew
was like I was going to work through it with myself.
So that's what soccer was. It was literally just therapy
for me. It wasn't that I loved the game. It
wasn't that I was concessed with soccer at all. Okay,
that's that's an amazing point to add. And and you know,
I wonder because I think a lot of people are
quick to say, like, why didn't you tell anybody? Well,

there's a million reasons. And one of those reasons I
I just heard from you is you might have known
what to say. But also I didn't feel like I could,
like I don't know how to do that, Like I
don't know what the real problem is. And if if
I'm so afraid of hurting my mom like you you said,
like who do I go to? Amen? That's exactly and
the shame that goes around it. So let's just say

I was thirteen. Even at thirteen, and the shame that
goes around with mental health, which still exists today, is
so real. To know that there's something quote unquote wrong
with you which makes you different than others is a
very intense feeling that that exasperates the feeling you're already having.
So it's like, at that point in time, I did
not have the bandwidth or the skills or the depth

of knowledge to do anything other than what do I
need to do just to help myself right now, and
I think that for you, I'm so grateful that was
something that actually propelled you forward and that you were
able to do that. But I think that is a
really big issue that you just brought up. Is that,
like that you said the word shame, and with shame
comes like the stigma. If if I say I'm struggling
and this actually this could be brought out to so

many different aspects of life in the world. But if
I say I'm strugg lane in in something, what is
that going to say or mean about me? What does
that that mean? And you posted I just reposted it.
I was going to bring this up later, but you
posted something on the just Move instagram was talking about
strength isn't about how much you can lift, It's about
what was the second part of it. It's about essentially

you were saying, it's it's your strength is not in
the gym. It's not about how much weight you can left.
That's not what strength is. Strength is how you. It
was how you feel in your body, how you feel
with yourself. And I think from that perspective, then you
asking for help would be this sign of strength, right,
And I think that's something we promote all of the time.

At the same time, I feel that because I have
had experiences and I've put myself in a community that
believes that, but a lot of people don't have that.
That is what strength is. Strength is showing up and
having a brave face. Strength is looking like you have
it together despite adversity, Like strength is all that when
I don't know that that is true or should be

what we're putting out there. So yeah, just yeah, so
that that bothers you obviously, It's like it's also always
then gets to find that strength is a look right,
It's like it's like all these things that have been
so it's why when I came into this industry, when
I finally decided, Okay, movement is the thing that I
want to do, It's why I was so infuriated, Like

to my core, I was infuriated that what people came
to me for was to change what their bodies look like.
And so for me, I was like, you have no
idea what a miracle it is that you are standing
here today at this gym wanting to train, Like, why
are we having conversation about what you look like? Let's
have a conversation about all the things that you can
do and have you use movement as this way to

show your body love and appreciation. And so when things
get some down into like what are you doing physically,
what do you look like? You're not strong if you
don't look like that, or you can't do these things,
it's just like, I mean, it literally boils my blood
because that's not at all what it's about. And strength
is different for different people and at different times, in
different seasons. We're going to get into that because that

reminds me of another I was I'm reading this book.
I'm listening to this book called Man Enough by Justin Baldoni,
and he did a whole chapter on body image, but
it was it was men's and you don't hear a
lot of people talk about men's body image. So I
was like, eyes wide open, writing everything down as I'm
like listening to this. But he said something that really
sparked a lot inside of me that he said, looking

strong is in a way to be strong, but it's
a way to avoid looking weak. And I was like,
heck yes, because and that goes along the lines of
what you're talking about is in the specifically the industry
you're in being a strong human is promoted as your
body type and it's just not And that's frustrating from

my perspective and yours, who were two people that we
use movement as a way to like get through other
obstacles in your life. It is a a vessel and
a tool. It is not the destination. And so going
off of all that, what do you want to change
when it comes to the fitness industry or you can
wide in and out because that's like the world right, Yeah,

what do you wish was was different about that? In
the way things are promoted? Oh gosh, where do we start? First?
And foremost, for me, when I stepped into this industry
right away, the thing that was just glaringly obvious is
we are the health and wellness industry and we are
one of the most unhealthiest industries. So it was right
away from the jump, yeah, I was like, we are

not the true definition of health. And if I actually
cared about a human being's health and well being, what
would that look like? What would I want to do
for that person? And so the thing for me as
a coach was I I despise the industry and then
I love the industry. So I didn't want to talk
crap about it from the far. I wanted to be

in it and I wanted to change it from within,
But that a the same point as being in it
and trying to change it from the inside. I also
wanted to help people, which I call more the general
population from outside understand that a lot of what you
see is not what health is. Like the definition of health,
I always say, health is a feeling. It's not a look.
The things that the health and wellness industry are pushing,

because we are now a trillion dollar industry, is most
of the time, unfortunately, because it makes us a lot
of money. So when we're pushing things, they're all there's
you know, as with any big corporation, there's agendas behind it,
and a lot of what we push is that we're
playing on the guilt you feel, or the shame you feel,
or you know, like all the things I have to
do with the way that in which your body looks,

and then we make money because we sell you on that.
And so as soon as I saw that and what
was I became a trainer. I think it was like
twenty three or twenty four. I was like, absolutely not,
this is this is the thing that I want to
like be out here changing. There were no platforms at
the time. Social media wasn't around. I always say the
only platform was Jillian Michaels on the Biggest Loue Sir.
That was that was what people knew about movement and

about fitness. And so from that very like small little beginning,
I was like, I want the world to move, but
I want the world to move because I want the
world to feel really empowered and confident in who they
are and grateful for what their body can do, not
feeling shame for what their body looks like. So I
really believe that if you have an experience with your

body in which your body, which is always an amazing thing,
will show up for you, will always impress, you will
be able to do all these things. If you start
having that experience and you start being so proud of
what your body does, you'll start to think less and
less about what it looks like. And don't get me wrong,
it happens every single day. I stand in the mirror

every single day. I can nitpick my body apart. But
the difference now is that I don't stand in that.
The difference is if something comes in let's just say, like,
you know, my arms are huge. In two seconds, I'm like, yes, bitch,
and that's how you can do like ten pull ups.
So what are we talking about. The difference is how
plastic leaves me because we live in the world. We
live in a world where looks is everything. That's what sells.

So being able to have the tools to get rid
of that was something that was so important to me.
And then the thing that I wanted to help coach
people and you know, support people on yes, and so
grateful that you just said that because what you just said,

just so everybody is listening, that's not something she made
up and sounds nice. That's like actual psychological science that
she's saying in a way that makes sense to everybody.
Because loving your body does not mean you're going to
get out of the shower, look in the mirror and say,
oh my god, I look so good today. That is
not what that means. Because I think you and I

can both attest to the fact that we practice loving
our bodies every day and a lot of the times
that comes with these thoughts that we wish we didn't
have about them. Because I don't don't think that you
can just fully, and I want I would love to
hear you on this. I don't think you can just
fully decided to change your mind and you can say, well, like,
I love the fact that I don't have a thigh gap,

and that's what it is promoted on every single like
health magazine and fitness magazine out there. I don't think
I can just flip a switch. Now. You might like that,
you might have your personal preference about what bodies look like,
but it's more about how I'm viewing that thing, which
is what you just said. And the more you can
have those experiences and then what you just said, yeah,

that's why I can do pull ups and push ups
and that's why I can do all of this badass ship.
The more you add that, you're literally changing neuropathways in
your brain that literally change how the way you feel
about your body. And when you change the way you
feel about your body, you see it differently, like actually
your eyeball see things differently. Yeah, And I think a
really quick distinction is that I am constantly reinforcing what

my body does for me, like what she does for
me every day, rather than what she looks like. And
for me, that's like that is a really big which
that doesn't make sense, especially for females, Like we are
summed up by what we look like. That's why I
have my quote like I am more than my body.
I am more than my body, and I say that
every day. And it's not that I don't love my body. Obviously,
she's a miracle, she's amazing. She wakes up every day

and that's a miracle. What she's not is what she
looks like. Like that is the least most important thing.
And it's not just I want to reiterate, I am
a physical person. So for me, I find a lot
of the empowerment about myself in what it can physically do.
But there are so many like there are so many
incredible women that are doing amazing things that doesn't just
have to be doing what they're doing in the gym,

that find that confidence in that, like, find the confidence
that makes you like, you know, like your brightest, happiest,
healthiest self, and then constantly remind yourself about that, whether
you're an amazing mother or you know, like you're a nerd,
whatever it is that you find your space and your
confidence in, remind yourself about that, because it's what you're
doing in this world, it's what your body allows you

to do. It's not what your body like. Yeah, and
I'm when you said mother, I thought that, like, you know,
people going through transitions with their bodies of like giving
birth and then their lifestyle changes and maybe they're not
as active or active in the same way, and for
somebody to be able to see the changes in their
body and then say, but hey, I'm I'm more than
this because look at what I do for my kids,

I'm raising a family, I'm doing this, I'm doing that.
That is really powerful and it seems simple, but it's
it's not. And you just saying like I'm more than
my body, I'm more than my body. I'm more than
my body. I will say I forget because I do
this all day every day that I forget how powerful
that actually is. And it's not simple, Like it is simple,

but it's not simple when you repeat to yourself those
things that actually changes the trajectory of your life. Which
I want to bring this up because this was this
is how I found out who you are. Is this
this video that I posted now twice on Instagram, I'll
probably posted again of you talking about self love and
The reason and I think that that video is so

important is because I think self care and self love,
like fitness and movement and strength, is portrayed in a
way that I don't like. I think self love is too.
And there's been this huge, huge, which I'm so grateful for,
but this push forward in the body positivity movement that's
been incredible, it's been amazing. At the same time, I

think that it's watered down to this this idea that
body positivity and positive body image is just this thing
where you do look in the mirror and you say,
I love you so much. Uh, you look at your
in the mirror and you say, I love my thighs,
I love this, I love this, but my body, I
love my stomach, I love my eyes. I love and
I get in these like pushbacks with clients a lot

of times because it's not easy to do that. We're
gonna have a little argument right here, Okay, okay, No,
I love that. Actually not a fan of the body. Okay, okay,
then then that's good. Well, I don't know that we'll
get in an argument. I want to hear why. I
want to hear why, because it's still summing up that
women are what their body is, and like, why why

do we have to talk about the body? Body positivity
would literally be not talking about my body at all.
Leave my body alone. We'll talk about my body, because
that's what body positivity is. Standing in the mirror saying
I like this about my So all you're reinforcing is
that what you look like is important and you have
to love all that. Like that's to me, that's there's
nothing positive about that. I don't I don't. I don't

like the body. We just shouldn't have to talk about it.
We shouldn't have to talk about it. We shouldn't be
defined by what we look like. Body neutrality is the goal.
The goal is is that my body. I'm not on
the roller coaster ride of where my body is at
in any given season. I had this whole conversation. I
think this is where the self care started, the self
love video, because last year was really fucking difficult. We

all went through a pandemic. It was very hard times,
very very hard times for everybody. Everybody experience it differently
for me personally, as I am on social media and
people know people looking at me as like you know
the definition of health or what it had to be.
I was going through my own roller coaster ride of
I didn't have any motivation to move, I was gaining weight,
I was unhealthy. When I don't move my you know,

mental health goes out the window. So I was going
through a very very difficult time sitting there telling me
to look in the mirror and just love my stomach.
What is that like? I had this whole thing about, Oh, yes, okay,
we're not gonna argue because that's my That's my point is.
I don't think I'll ever look in the mirror and
say I love my stomach. One. I'm not interested in

doing that because my stomach looks different every single day, um,
regardless of month to month. And so that is the
energy that I would like to promote out there. And
I think what I see that gets mixed up and
I'm trying to get more detailed with this and hopefully
I I can I can in the future. Is that
the body positivity movement and having having positive body image

are two different things, but they're getting tied together. Positive
body image is I think more along the lines of
body neutrality, where I might not like what my body
looks like, but also it doesn't matter, because what I'm
doing is I'm taking the worth aspect and the value
aspect away from my body and any part of my body,

any aesthetic thing. And I'm I'm understanding that worth is
something that you're I'm born with and it I don't
get to have more and I don't get to have less.
It just is that, and what I look like is
just that and we're moving on. That's what I believe
is having positive body image. When I say like, I'm
glad that there's this push towards body positively, I'm I'm

glad that people are starting to stop ripping people down,
and I'm glad people are are are attempting to allow
there to be more inclusivity when it comes to bodies.
But I think what I hear you, which is good
for me to hear too, is really we should take
that out and just stop talking about it, because if
we weren't talking about it, then it actually wouldn't be

an issue. The reason that we're talking about it is
because it is an issue. Yeah, And I mean on
the bigger level, you know, corporations now everybody is making
a ton of money on body positivity, and I'm like, again,
women are continuously summed up by what they look like.
Stop talking about what we look like. Start talking about
what we're doing. In this world. Women are doing incredible things.
Women run the damn world. Talk about what we're doing.

Stop talking about what we look like like. And I'm
not saying that men don't deal with these same issues.
They don't deal with them on this level. Like for
me right now, like I am a businesswoman. I love
what I do. I love movement. That's a piece of like,
I love all these things. Nobody ever talks about that.
Nobody ever talks about the things that I'm doing. The

thing that you want to talk about is the way
in which I look and it infuriates me in a
in a level that's like stop And this is where
it's like, I have so much passion. Stop talking about
what women look like like? Why? And in order to
do that, you have to stop talking about yourself based
on what you look like. In order to know what
that is and what you want and how you want

other people to treat you and have a dynamic and
a relationship with you, you have to start treating yourself
that way. So this is a learn This is something
that I am practicing every single day, every single day,
I could look in the mirror. Especially this is where
that the self love video came from. But I can
break myself down every single day. There are a million
things I can say I don't like about what I
look like. But my constant practice is reinforcing the things

that I am doing in this world, the things that
I do for myself and for others that I am
proud of, and then replacing that. So it's it's always
how fast can I take that negative self talk and
reinforce it with something that I'm really proud of, Not
reinforce it with like this fake but I love my stomach,
but I love my art. Not reinforce it with that.
Reinforce it with like you are a bad bitch, Kaisa, Okay,

you're getting the world to move, you're running a successful business,
you have really really good relationships dynamics with your friendships,
you support a lot of people, Like do all of
the things that that you're proud of. Reinforce it with that,
not what you look like, and then that's what you're
gonna see. You're gonna look in the mirror and you're
gonna see all the things that you're doing to make
an impact, which rounds back to like why you even

got into the fitness industry in the first place. So
amen to everything you said. Thank you in the in
the way that like that's actually giving me stuff to
think about because I think I I agree with everything
you're saying, but I don't know that I practice it
mindfully all the time. And so to hear you have
such passion around that, which obviously I believe that that's

come from experiences you've had, Right, That's come from a
lot of experiences you've had, which's like, I'm sick of this.
So then talk to me about, like I want to
know where you are because that video was made, I
mean made a while ago. So talk to me about,
like where you are with self love and how you
would encourage a friend, not even a client, Like how

would you encourage a friend to walk into a space
of self love? Like what is self love to you?
And what does it look like in your daily life? Yeah,
so this is and honestly, I'm never I'm not gonna
say the moment that we filmed that video, I was
just like in a moment, So if you ever want
to go back, and really everybody needs to watch it,
But for me, that's it's what at the end, I

was like, self love is loving yourself, But for me,
it's not about loving yourself because you look a certain
way or you're you're trying to accept the way that
you look. It's about loving yourself through every season, through
the highs the lows. It's about being your best friend.
It's about being your own ride or die, and it's
about being really like encouraging to yourself when times are rough.
That for me, that was really where the whole thing

started was because it was a difficult year. I had
a lot of people looking at me to like be this,
you know, raw raw go doing. I couldn't even do
that for myself. And so I found, you know, in
my in the roller coaster ride going downhill and in
my you know, the my mental health is going out
the window and everything is happening. I had to remember,
like no, Kaisa, like one, what you look like doesn't

matter right now. Do the things that you need to
do to help you come act to yourself, which for
me is movement. I'm not saying that's that's everybody's number
one tool, but for me, it's movement. And then once
I start moving, then I can remember, like, who I
am not based on the things that I can physically
do when I am moving, but it helps me clear
my mind, It helps me connect me to myself, and
it helps remind me who i am, why I'm here

on this earth, what I'm trying to do. You know,
the things that I that get me out of bed
every morning and get me excited. It brings me back
to that. So what it reminded me was to be
really authentic about the struggle that I was going through
during that time and allow myself to tell people to
be okay being vulnera about it. Nobody wants to know
that the girl that is known for smiling doing crazy

shit is actually really really struggling right now. You know.
I didn't think anybody wanted to know that until I
was like, no, people, there's more people struggling. It's probably
matter to me. I would want to know that because
what that is saying, well, one, what you're saying is
like self love is you literally are saying self love
is loving yourself in every season, not just when it's
going well, because that's not fair. But I would want

to know that because and think again, social media is
a tricky thing, and that's a whole another issue when
it comes to sharing or over sharing or what to
put out there or how whatever. But I do want
to know that when you're struggling, because as a human,
I have my experience where I feel all my feelings inside.
I have all my thoughts inside. I have all my
bad days, all my good days inside of me. I

have all of it. But when I look at the world,
I'm only seeing people's outsides. So as a and this
I don't know why I'm about to cry, But when
as a therapist and somebody who also is in not
too as the scale you are, but in Nashville and
my community a picture of loving yourself and self love
and acceptance and mental health. I also have really bad

days in the pandemic was a really shitty year for
me as well, especially when it comes to some of
that stuff that I specialize in it because in because
my body changed too, and my abilities changed too, and
my ability even move changed because of some of the
stuff I was just dealing with with anxiety and stuff.
And so I do want to know when you when
other people are that are the picture of whatever I'm

aiming to be, are struggling, because then I don't have
to compare my insides to just your outsides, or I'm
comparing and even outside to my insides. And that doesn't
mean you have to overshare and tell me everything. But
when you can have a bad day and when you
aren't perfect, then I can realize that, oh, doing well

doesn't mean I'm I'm perfect. I had a conversation and
with a client who was talking about recovery, like recovery
from an eating disorder, and I am in recovery from
an eating disorder, and she knows this, and and she

was talking to me about what was she was going through,
and she wasn't really being honest with me, and I
was like, I just don't. I don't believe that you're
as okay with the world as in your buddie and
food as you're acting like. This is bizarre to me.
She finally broke down and she was like, well, I'm
afraid to tell you what I'm really feeling because I'm

afraid then that will mean I'm not in recovery. And
and I said, well, we need to talk about recovery
is because I'm in recovery for like eight years and
you better believe. I have days where I want to
run fifteen miles, and I have days where I don't
want to eat pizza because that scares me. And I
have days where I don't want to get out of
bed because I know if I get out of bed,

I have to put on this outfit and people are
going to look at me. And I have those days.
It's not about having those days. It's about what you
do with those days. But I think that's that's kind
of what I'm saying. It's like, we need you, like
we need you to share with us. And at the
same time, I'm sitting here feeling like I'm putting pressure
on people to like share their stuff. No, I don't.

I don't feel that at all. But I think what
the I think the thing at this point in time
is also making sure that we are we're in the
business of wanting to help people like we we are
in business of wanting to help people, and when we
do that, it means also like giving people tools. And
so for me, this is why it always brings it
back to movement and I'm I'm my thing is just

move Obviously. I want to get Obviously, I want to
get the world to move I will also say I
don't necessarily think that movement is the number one tool
for everybody. There are a bunch of different people come
into connecting to themselves through many different avenues. Whether whatever
it is that you want to do that helps you
clear out the noise and get connected to yourself. I
am one thousand percent here for it. But we do

need tools because when when things are really really hard
and we're trying to just have a positive relationship with ourselves,
we need those tools. You need the things that get
you back to who am I? You know? What am
I doing? How do I show up for myself? What
do I need in this time? Even being able to
like clear all the noise to like what do I
need during this time? Last year, for me it I

experienced a year very differently than a lot of people
because I have an online business, and you know, everybody
was at home and people wanted to move from home,
and I am eternally grateful for that, and that is
what I have always wanted to do. But it was
also such an odd time to experience a very very
stressful time in the world and then a stressful time
and work when that didn't compare to anybody else. It

was all these things and I had to have the
tools to say, how do you get back to yourself? Kaisa?
You move? You move, and when you're going through really
hard times, you don't like sit there and analyze what
you look like and then break yourself down based on that.
You just find the thing that brings you happiness, that
clears everything else out, and you do that thing because
that's what's going to help you out of that low season.
You'll have them. Yeah, well, and going off of that too.

I do want to make sure we have time to
talk about just move because I think what you're doing
is really cool, and you're right its movement is not
the only tool. And I think, no matter if it,
movement is one of your top tools or it's not,
this conversation is important because we're talking about a tool.
Insert movement with insert anything that you want. Their writing.

I don't care what horseback writing, which also could be movement,
but it's there anything in there. Maybe you love to
bake like I don't care what it is like, have
a tool, maybe whatever it is. What we're talking about
is allowing yourself to have whatever it is you have
inside of your body, whatever thoughts and feelings about the
world and what's going on with you, and then a
way for you to make your life bigger than that feeling,

bigger than that feeling of sadness or fear or or
or whatever it is. And so you have created a huge,
huge tool for people. You've done that, and you're changing
people's lives with it, and so I do want to
have you talk about it for a second for people
who do love movement or people that like might really
really really love it, but they don't know it yet

because they haven't tried it because it's scary, because fitness
is scary. It's really scary. No, totally, Yeah, Well, I
think the thing for me was obviously like what are
the tools that I love the most, and its movement,
and so that was a tool. Then when I learned
that I wanted to work with people, movement was a
tool that I got to work with people. But the
issue for me was, in some sense it was like

this ask backwards thing because the fitness industry then reinforced
the issues that I was trying to work people out of,
and so it was like this vicious cycle. So my
career originally started We'll start at the boot camp, and
then I decided, Okay, this is what I'm gonna do.
And when people would come to me, people come to
you because they want to change. When people want to move,
they want to move because they want to change the

way they look. And so right off the gate, young kaist,
it was like, all right, cool, we'll go train with
this trainer, Go train with this trainer, because that's not
what I do. I don't that's not what I believe in.
And all of a sudden, I'm looking around and I
have no clients. I was like, all right, well, I
was like, okay, well, guess you gotta change something about yourself.
So what I realized was in that in that moment,

I was the parent and like I cannot, I have
to set up opportunities in which clients came to me
for whatever reason it was, and then I taught them
and I showed them through the experience that they got
to have with their body, that that's not really what
we're here for, and that like what you look like
really isn't ultimately the most important thing. So that is
kind of like how this whole sparklet was lit inside

of me, and I was working with a lot of
middle aged women Like that's why I ended up working
a lot with and the way in which their lives
were changing because of the way in which, like how
they felt about themselves when they could do these really
empowering things through movement. And it wasn't The thing is,
it wasn't like they were doing anything crazy. It could
have been a push up was something that like was
life changing for somebody because she never thought that she

could do that, but that confidence and that connection that
she had and how empowered she felt, she took that
out into the real world and then her whole life change.
Because it's not about the doing the push up. It's
about thinking that you could never do a push up
and then working hard and committing to yourself and believing
in yourself and then doing something you didn't think you
could do absolutely and just feeling so empowered in who

you are. Like that's the thing, Like, we are truly
empowered in who we are as human beings, not by
what we look like, but by who we are, what
we can do, how we show up in the world
that can actions we have with others, how we impact others.
Those are the things that really feed you, not what
you look like that doesn't really feed you, that's not lasting.
So at the end of the day, that's where I
was like, I really want to bring healthy movement to

the world. I really want to help people get connected
with themselves use movement as a tool, not to change
what they look like, but so they can become more
empowered and confident in who they are as human beings.
And so it for me, like that was really always
a goal. It's been a long journey to get to
the point of finally releasing Just Move our platform released
this year. And the truth is, like I really believe

we are If the health and wellness industry really believed
in an individual's health and wellness, it would be just Move,
Like that's what I really believe, Like, that's that's who
we are, that's what we're doing. We are an inclusive
movement space. We are continuously redefining what it means to move.
I mean, we have dance, we have we have we
have all of the traditional ways to move. We were

constantly trying to exp be in that because I think
a lot of people just write it off and say like, oh,
I didn't I don't enjoy working out, I didn't I
don't enjoy fitness. The human body is made to move.
You are literally born to move. You love to move.
You just haven't found a mode of movement, a type
of movement that speaks to you yet. And I am
here to show you that we have one for you,
you know, and as we expand um and that we

have really incredible trainers, trainers, you know, super diverse trainers.
And that was really really important to me as well.
Can you talk about the because I heard I heard
you don't know what video it was, maybe it was
address move video, or maybe it was something else you
were doing, but you were talking about the difference between
like you don't just have like beginner programs. You have
a program like that's called Start. I want you to
talk about that because I think one of my biggest

things that we don't have a lot of times I
want to get this in. But one of my biggest
things when I hear people that say I can't go
to that class, or I can't do that, or I
can't whatever because I'm not in shape, or I I
can't do that kind of whatever, which is boils my
blood for a whole list of reasons. But you've developed
programming in language and all of that that literally is

for that person. Probably yeah, no, exactly. So when I
when I was training in person coming in saying they
had never moved before, so they didn't know how to move.
So when you say squat like, they didn't know what
a squat was. They were either in pain or they
just didn't have the knowledge of how to move. And
I had never done before, didn't have the experience. So
the beginner level in the fitness world is actually to

advance for somebody who has never moved before or is
possibly in pain. So I created a level called Start.
If you have never moved before, if you moved maybe
a long time ago, and you don't really know how
to move, or you're in pain, Start is where you start.
Because we take movement and we make it really, really accessible.
You're still learning, you're learning how to do all the
fundamentals of movement, but in a really really fun way.

Because the issue for me is that the fitness industry,
if they create anything that is like that true beginner,
the way in which they talked down to human beings
is infuriating to me. Somebody who is just getting started
on their movement journey doesn't need to be taught down
to like, that's not that's so for me. Any time
I looked at like, what what is out there for individuals,

it didn't exist. So and I hate calling them levels
and I've got to figure out another language. But we
have start and then beginner than intermediate that advanced, so
you can work through the whole system. But you always
feel like you have a place that speaks to you.
So really, my thing was if you have never moved
before you looked into what we call the fitness world
and never thought something spoke to you. I wanted to

be the place that you felt home. I wanted to
be the place that you really felt like, Okay, this
is where I can begin my movement journey. I don't
care where you If you stay with us, amazing, If
you go anywhere else, great. I just want you to
feel really empowered and confident in movement and what your
body can do, and I want you to learn about it,
like as you are going through that process, which is
incredible that you've essentially taken a time and energy developed

something for every everybody. And I think that speaks to
the fact that like I believe in it, it it sounds
like you believe that every single person in the world.
Despite if you are like an Olympic flee or you
literally have never walked to walk a step in your life,
you deserve to have a space to enjoy movement because
movement offers so much to us. Absolutely, So I have

like twenty other things I was going to bring up,
but we helped time, which is fine. But I just
want to say I'm so grateful for this conversation to
be able to have because I think even now I'm
going to be left thinking about my own thoughts and
my own being and and stuff. But also because I
think this is going to help a lot of people

do the same thing. With that, I'm also grateful just
for your platform in general, and I think you offer
a lot to the world and I hope that in
the future there are more people like you doing what
you do. So can you tell us how people can
find you, because people are going to want to find
you after this conversation. You could find me on Instagram
and Facebook, I think is the easiest. So kids of

Fit k A I s a FIT And then the
platform that we're working up that I'm reading right now
is just moved, so that's as well. On Instagram and Facebook. Um,
and if you find me on Instagram, Instagram is really
like what I know. Facebook is too complicated for me.
Messaged me Like I told I'm the one. Nobody else
is running my Instagram. I'm the one running my Instagram.
Messaged me definitely comment like I would love to come

back on and have a more you know, like continue
our conversation, just because I think a lot of times
people don't allow me to like go in debt to
where I want to go and have these So you're
coming back. You're coming back because there's in I think
what we did today is we touched a lot of things,
but we could have talked about your freshman year of
high school for forty five minutes. And so I think

a lot of people are going to hear a lot
of the parts of your story and the parts of
what you believe, and then they're going to want more,
just like I do. And I will say I am
in this like you, and I am assuming this is true.
But I attempt to surround myself, whether it be in
my life or on social media, with like minded people.
And at the same time, I feel really lonely a

lot because what I either seeing as these people that
I think are like minded actually aren't. It's one of
those things, like you're talking about the body positivity movement
has turned into like a money maker or something to
help you write this like really great quote on Instagram,
then people follow you. But is that really what you're
trying to be? And so I do feel really lonely
and a lot of that. So just personally, I'm grateful

to have as many of these conversations as you are
willing to have because it fills my soul and it
helps actually accomplish what I'm trying to do myself. And
what you guys don't know is right before I got
I told you I was like, I don't really like
to look at it. I love with you, so but
look at you. But that's because you're not You're talking

about things you care about. I really appreciate you. I
definitely feel like this is the first of many conversations,
so you know, definitely please keep me loop and if
anybody has things that they want us to discuss next,
you know, yeah, yeah, so, And I will say to
everybody if you heard something and you have a specific
a question, email it to um Catherinet you need therapy
podcast dot com. And it can either be we do

a Wednesday Q and A where I answer emails. It
can be something really simple like that, or if there's
enough of the same stuff or even enough things, we'll
just have you fully back on a on an episode.
So thank you so much, thank you, thank you so
much for having me, and also just for creating the
space you know, for like true conversation
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