November 6, 2023 • 22 mins
This week, Kat is helping us differentiate between having a heated debate and having a respectful conversation. Every human is going to find themselves in a conversation where they do not agree with some of the other parties involved. While that may not be fun or ideal— it doesn’t mean you have to fight them! In this episode you will learn how reframing the goals of your “disagreements” allows you to understand your peers, friends, and partners better and vice versa.
Follow Kat on Instagram: @Kat.Defatta
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Have a question, concern, guest idea, something else? Reach Kat at: Kathryn@youneedtherapyodcast.com
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Produced by: @HoustonTilley
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
If we don't know something about ourselves at this point
in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live. There's a wisdom at death's door.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know
what to do because there was no internet. I don't know, man,
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all,
my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a
licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into
conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious
(00:51):
and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Welcome to You Need Therapy.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You
Need Therapy podcast. My name is Kat, I am the host,
and quick reminder before we get into today's episode that
although this podcast is hosted by a therapist and it's
called You Need Therapy, it does not serve as a
replacement or a substitute for any actual mental health services. However,
we always hope that these episodes help the people that
(01:22):
are listening in some way at some point in their lives.
I'm recording this on a Friday, and I just have
to say before we get into actually what we're going
to be talking about, I've become obsessed. I don't know
if obsessed is the right word, but I've really started
to love creating these.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Plant propagation walls.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I saw one in a esthetician's office at Hannah Ellis's Skincare.
She's actually been on the podcast before, but she put
one in her studio and it is so beautiful and
it's been really cool to watch it as it has grown,
and we were trying to decide what to do with it.
Weird wall we had in one of the offices at
(02:02):
my practice, Three Cords Therapy, and I said, wait a second,
let's put a plant wall in. And if you guys
don't know what I'm talking about, I have pictures posted
or videos posted on Three Cords Therapies Instagram. It's just
at Three Chords Therapy and it's really cool and it
had really transformed I think the two I installed my
second one today. I did one last week in an
(02:23):
office and then we put another one in the waiting room,
or I put another one in the waiting room today,
and it is a really cool way to add color
and life into a space without it feeling chaotic. I
think plants are always a good touch for multiple reasons,
but it feels very calm and life giving it the
(02:44):
same way. So big supporter of these walls and if
you want to make your own wall. I just got
them off of Amazon, the little hanging things and in
one office I use nails to put them in to
hang them. The other office just used commands trips, which
I have not seen if they're actually going to hold up,
so tbd. But they're really easy to install. I did
(03:08):
up myself and the only issue I have is I'm
not really great at measuring things and keeping things straight
and orderly, but putting them up is.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Not that difficult.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So if you want to make your own plant wall,
I linked them on my Instagram and also save them
in my Amazon store that you can find from the
link in my bio on my Instagram. But they're just
from Amazon. They came in two days if you have
Amazon Prime. Super simple, fun way to add some life
into a space.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So highly recommend.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Now that I have finished gassing up plant propagation walls.
Let's get into what we are here to talk about today.
So solo episode again. And I teased, I think I
didn't tease. I think I told you guys what this
week was going to be about. And it's all about
how to disagree well, how to fruitful conversations where the
(04:02):
goal is not to change somebody's mind, and the goal
is not for your mind to be changed, but the
goal is just to have a conversation with somebody that
maybe you don't have the same take with. And this
doesn't have to just be a debates like on big
political topics or just some of the very popular debate
topics in the world. It doesn't have to just be
(04:23):
about that stuff. This can be about experiences that you've had,
maybe some arguments you've had based on you guys both
having different experiences at the same time. It's something that
I think can be helpful in a lot of different
kinds of conflicts. And I've talked a lot about our
current cultures and abilities to sit with differing opinions and
(04:44):
our constant pursuit of right and wrong many times on
this podcast. I feel like I bring it up a
lot because it is part of so many of the
things that we struggle with in this world. And when
I think about that, there's one experience since that really
pops up in my head very vibrantly, and it was
(05:05):
a couple of years ago. I actually became, since this experience,
pretty disappointed in myself after I cut off an opportunity
for really maybe difficult but also fruitful conversation abruptly because
the person I was talking to had a different opinion
than mine. And I can admit now that in that
(05:26):
instance I just felt incredibly self righteous and protective and correct.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I just cut off the ability to.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Have any conversation because I wasn't interested in hearing it.
But it wasn't just because I wasn't interested in hearing
this person's opinion or take, although I would have said
that back then, and it was actually a couple years
after this happened. I was sitting in a therapist's office
that I was seeing, not my own office, and I
(05:57):
brought up through something else, this residual feeling that I
had of this just achiness from that experience from that moment,
and to be honest, I doubt the other parties that
were involved in that conversation even remember and would remember
what I'm talking about, But it actually had changed how
(06:18):
I felt about them because I just created some stories
and assumed things because I wasn't willing to have a
conversation and I don't really like that, And that's what
I kind of brought up in therapy a couple months ago.
And when we have conversations with people who have different
opinions or outlooks, I see, and also I'm included in this.
(06:40):
I see a lot of those conversations coming from a
place where I'm trying to convince the other person that
I'm right and they're wrong, versus just helping someone understand
why I think what I think, or being open to
understand why somebody else thinks what they think. And if
we are trying to be right and prove that point,
then we're not actually able to listen openly.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
We don't do that.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
We're listening defensively, and because of that, we're not able
to better understand our friends because we're listening to find
ways to prove our points. And I know that I
lost an opportunity to understand somebody better because I was
afraid that listening to them would make me not like them.
But then I was later making up stories about them
(07:24):
because I didn't have that conversation, and I made up
how that conversation would have gone in my head, and
I was really lacking the awareness that you can disagree
with a person's opinion and still like them, which seems
so simple but at the same time very difficult. And
maybe if I understood more about why their opinion was
what it was and why they thought what they thought,
(07:44):
then I would be able to know that I can
like somebody and still love somebody and disagree with them
on big important things. But if we don't allow ourselves
to have those conversations, then we don't allow ourselves to
gain that evidence and believe that that is a true
thing that can happen. And I know in my upbringing,
going through school, we were taught how to debate. It
(08:05):
was part of it was like a project that we
did in high school. We all had to do it.
We were literally taught how to have debates. We were
taught how to win arguments growing up, but we weren't
taught how to respectfully disagree with somebody, which is very
interesting to me because just because you can win an argument,
it doesn't necessarily mean you were right, So why wouldn't
(08:27):
we want to know more about how to coexist than how.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
To pick aside and prove it.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
And as I was preparing for this episode, I found
an article on Psychology Today that it gave like six
steps and tips to help have conversations with somebody that
you don't agree with in a healthy, functional way. And
they were good starting points, but also they were a
little bit too direct from my taste, So I've actually
decided not to share those because I like to give
(08:55):
frameworks that allow people to make things their own and
allow things to feel authentic to them versus just going
through the motions. So I kind of reworked some of
what I've found to give more simple and tangible tips
versus these linear steps that you have to engage in
that tell you exactly how to have a conversation. So
(09:17):
I want you to take these how you want, and
really if you use them, and when you use them,
I want you to assess how using these tips they're
not steps, they're just they're really just suggestions. Assess how
they allow you to show up more regulated in disagreements,
because when we are having these really heated disagreements, a
lot of times we've become disregulated and then we don't
(09:38):
even actually show up how we really want to show
up with people. So let's just get into what I
came up with. So I think for starters, number one,
what I would really suggest to people is, let's acknowledge
that we don't have to be persuaded in these conversations,
and we don't have to persuade the other person. This
is not about convincing some that you are correct. Disagreements
(10:03):
can end in disagreeing, and they kind of have to
have the ability to do that because there's not always
a right or wrong in situations. Not everything is so
black and white. So we can hold our beliefs still
while also listening with respect to our peers, our friends,
our partners. So I really, in the beginning want to
(10:24):
encourage people to name the real goal here as understanding
versus convincing. And then number two, I believe it is
super helpful to kindly acknowledge that you guys do not agree.
From the beginning, that seems kind of silly. Establishing this
awareness that you are different might seem a little like
(10:45):
d obviously at certain times in these conversations. However, what
it does is it sets you both up to be
able to show up independently and free to do that.
It kind of just I think sometimes levels the playing
field and allows some relief to come. And this can
sound differently depending on who you are, but an easy
(11:06):
way to acknowledge this is just to say, hey, I
know we share different perspectives on what happened, and that's okay.
I really want to help you understand why I think
X y Z, and I also.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Want to understand you as well.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And it may not change our minds on what we think,
but it might help change how we feel about each other.
So are you open to that? And again, you can
say that in your own words, however it would naturally
come out of your mouth. You don't have to follow
this exact script. And then the next little tip I have,
(11:43):
number three is assuming this is someone you respect and
care for, can you show up and take a stance
of assumption of good intent to start out with Let's
just start with that versus starting to kind of play
that gotcha game and waiting for a chance to step
in tell them why they're wrong. If we love and
respect this person and their person, that's important to us,
(12:06):
and that we have a relationship with that we want
to foster to any degree. Let's assume that they are
good meaning people to begin with, versus trying to prove
why they are bad or wrong or what have you.
So listen for why what they are saying makes sense
for them versus you. Their opinion is not about you,
(12:28):
it's about them, and also vice versa, your opinion is
about you, So listen to why what they're saying makes
sense for them versus you and your experience of the world.
And with that number four, ask for clarification when you
still don't understand something, And remember, understanding here is different
(12:48):
than agreeing. Stay in the lane of curiosity over judgment.
I love that as a phrase to replay over and
over in my head. Stay curious versus judgmental. And remember
that understanding why someone thinks something does not mean that
you agree. So we are trying to understand them. We
are not trying to agree with them. Therefore, when you
(13:10):
don't understand it, it's not because you haven't been convinced.
Do not wait to be convinced or wait for them
to be convinced. That's again go back to the first tip.
It's really not the goal in how to disagree, Well,
that's the goal, and how to convince somebody of that
you're right. Proving your point, right, that's the goal. Proven
your point. So the next one, number five, which I
(13:34):
really imagine at some point you're gonna be in one
of these conversations, Like talking about them on this podcast
seems really like, oh, this is so light and fun,
and disagreeing can be so beautiful and care free and
oh so soothing. Okay, but probably not. There's gonna be
a lot of instances where you're having these conversations where
you are like, oh my gosh, this is driving me crazy.
(13:57):
What they're saying is making me feel crazy. I want
to yell, I want to tell them, I want to
just say something unfiltered. It's not all going to feel
really rainbows and butterflies. There's going to be tension. And
when somebody says something that to you feels outrageous or
crazy or like something that you'd want to be like,
are you kidding me? That's okay. When somebody says something
(14:19):
wild that you think is wild, that is okay. This
is going to happen, I assume, and it's not our
job to criticize their views here, and it's totally cool
to say, hey, I hear you say you believe x
y Z.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Because of ABC and then leave it there.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It might still feel crazy to you to say that,
but again that's not the point. You're trying to understand somebody,
so that will probably be really hard. You'll want to
defend and disprove and educate in all the things, and
you can do that, but again that would not align
with the goal of understanding somebody versus being right, So
always go back to that goal. You're not trying to
(15:01):
convince them that they're wrong or that they are crazy.
The goal is to understand why they think what they think.
So I hear you say you believe blank because of blank? Boom,
got it, Which leads us to the next little tip.
When necessary, So this is number six. But when when necessary,
(15:22):
especially when you think something is wild and out or
you're justn't crazy, do repeat back what you say that
same sentence, right, I hear you say you believe x
y Z because of ABC, Repeat it back and say
did I get it right? Because a lot of times,
when we have a lot of emotion in conversations and
when things do feel wild to us, we start hearing
(15:42):
stories in our head that actually have not come out
of this person's mouth.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
So it's very, very very important to.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Say, I hear you say exactly what they said versus
how you interpreted it, and if you interpreted it incorrectly
and you said something they didn't say, get the chance
to say, oh, no, that's I didn't say that. Let
me try again, and then they can say it again,
and then you can say back to them, Okay, so
I heard.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
You say da da da da da da da da.
Did I get it right?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
And do that until they say, yeah, you got it.
And again, this is I'm repeating what I heard, not
what I made up about what I heard. And this
will help you keep in line with that goal and
allow those emotions to be there and acknowledge that they're
there and they're going to come up. But I need
to slow myself down before I start making stories and
(16:33):
get confused not about what they're actually saying, but about
the story that I'm making up about what they're saying.
So repeat and ask for clarification. And then the last thing,
number seven, the seventh tip that I want to offer
to you guys, is summarize anything new that you learned
that actually might have been helpful to you, or that
(16:55):
actually might have been interesting, anything that you got out
of that conversation. And again, this does not mean that
you are then agreeing with them and they've changed your mind.
It can just be like, oh, wow, I actually learned
something in this conversation, and I want to thank you
for that. So, wow, that's really interesting what you shared
about drug overdoses. I was not aware of that, and
(17:18):
I actually really do want to learn more about that.
And I also really appreciate the chance to learn more
about you, even if I don't fully agree with everything
you're saying. So you get to offer a little bit
of Hey, this wasn't just us disagreeing. We both can
get something out of this. We both can understand each
other better, and hey, I might learn something along the way.
(17:38):
And just because I learned something along the way doesn't
mean I'm saying I agree with you. It's just saying, hey,
this was helpful and I appreciate it. So I really
think it can be helpful at the end to acknowledge
things that you have learned.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Even though you have not totally.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Decided that you now agree with what they're saying. It
doesn't have to be this all or nothing in black
and white situation, because rarely it is.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So those are my seven tips, and I do want
to say I realize that this is easier said than done,
and it's going to take some practice in some time
for this to feel natural if you have never thought about,
or learned or attempted to have fruitful conversations when you disagree.
And I also want to acknowledge that it can be
(18:25):
really difficult, near impossible to have a respectful conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
On your own.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
So what I mean by that is the other party
involved in these conversations really also needs to come from
a similar place for this to be fruitful, and if
they can't, that is totally okay. And it's okay for
you to say, hey, I really want to be able
to talk about this and learn from you and have
a conversation with you here. However, I can really only
(18:53):
do that if we both agree to aim for understanding
versus a win on either of our side. And so
if we can't agree on a goal for this conversation,
I don't know if it would be really helpful for
us to have it, because then it can kind of
make things worse if your goals are not aligning in
those conversations. And it's also okay to ask for a
break when you need it, even if you guys both
(19:14):
agreed on a goal for this conversation, because things can
still get heated and heavy, and when we enter into
our survival brain, we lose our full capacity to reason
and allow understanding to be a goal when we are
operating from a place of pure emotion. So ask for
a break, and it doesn't have to be a thirty
(19:37):
minute break, and be like, hey, I feel myself getting
really hot, I feel myself getting really jumbled. Hey, I
feel myself getting overwhelmed. Give me a second. I'm gonna reply,
and I want to continue to have this conversation, but
I just need a second. And you can do that
in the conversation and it can be like a minute,
or you can just like, hey, I'm gonna go walk
(19:57):
outside and take a couple of breasts and then.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Come back in.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I say a lot of times in my conversation set
are difficult, and it doesn't even have to be one
where where I'm disagreeing with somebody, but just difficult conversations
because I have really had to learn how to slow
myself down sometimes because I can just go at it.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I try to be very slow.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
To respond, and I let the person know, like, hey,
I'm not not responding. I'm gathering my thoughts before I
say something because I want to make sure I'm saying
what I want to say. So that's another little thing
you can do. Okay, So I know this was a
shorter episode. However, I also think this can be a
really helpful episode for the majority of people out there,
(20:38):
because we are all going to have a disagreement with
somebody at some point in our lives, and why wouldn't
we want to be able to do that well, So,
like I said, encourage you to take this as a practice.
How can I get better at having these conversations versus
how can I be perfect at disagreeing because that it
does not exist? And just be really kind to yourself
(20:59):
as you practice new ways to communicate in a way
that is going to work better for you in the
long run. If you would like to follow the podcast,
if you would like to follow me, you can do
that at You Need Therapy podcast on Instagram. You can
do that at Kat dot Defada on Instagram, and you
can also follow my therapy practice at three Quarts Therapy
(21:19):
on Instagram. If you have any questions, feedback, thoughts that
you want to share, you can email me Katherine kat
h r y M at you Need Therapy podcast dot
com And if you have not done so yet and
maybe you're a new listener, I would love love, love,
love love in the season of giving and holiday cheer.
(21:40):
If you guys would rate and review this podcast specifically
on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, you can do that. Spotify
is at the top, Apple it is probably more towards
the bottom. If you want to leave a kind little
comment what you like, some constructive feedback if you feel necessary.
I also am very open to that kind of stuff
(22:02):
through email as well. If you want to share something
that you liked or something that didn't sit well, or
just some feedback in general, you can always do that.
Always open to it because I always want to learn
and grow, just how the people listening to this podcast
usually are listening because they also want to learn and grow.
So until Wednesday, when I come back for couch Talks,
(22:23):
I hope you guys have the day you need to
have and I will talk to you soon.
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
If we don't know something about ourselves at this point
in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.
If you can die before you die, then you can
really live. There's a wisdom at death's door.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know
what to do because there was no internet. I don't know, man,
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all,
my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a
licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into
conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious
(00:51):
and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Welcome to You Need Therapy.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You
Need Therapy podcast. My name is Kat, I am the host,
and quick reminder before we get into today's episode that
although this podcast is hosted by a therapist and it's
called You Need Therapy, it does not serve as a
replacement or a substitute for any actual mental health services. However,
we always hope that these episodes help the people that
(01:22):
are listening in some way at some point in their lives.
I'm recording this on a Friday, and I just have
to say before we get into actually what we're going
to be talking about, I've become obsessed. I don't know
if obsessed is the right word, but I've really started
to love creating these.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Plant propagation walls.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I saw one in a esthetician's office at Hannah Ellis's Skincare.
She's actually been on the podcast before, but she put
one in her studio and it is so beautiful and
it's been really cool to watch it as it has grown,
and we were trying to decide what to do with it.
Weird wall we had in one of the offices at
(02:02):
my practice, Three Cords Therapy, and I said, wait a second,
let's put a plant wall in. And if you guys
don't know what I'm talking about, I have pictures posted
or videos posted on Three Cords Therapies Instagram. It's just
at Three Chords Therapy and it's really cool and it
had really transformed I think the two I installed my
second one today. I did one last week in an
(02:23):
office and then we put another one in the waiting room,
or I put another one in the waiting room today,
and it is a really cool way to add color
and life into a space without it feeling chaotic. I
think plants are always a good touch for multiple reasons,
but it feels very calm and life giving it the
(02:44):
same way. So big supporter of these walls and if
you want to make your own wall. I just got
them off of Amazon, the little hanging things and in
one office I use nails to put them in to
hang them. The other office just used commands trips, which
I have not seen if they're actually going to hold up,
so tbd. But they're really easy to install. I did
(03:08):
up myself and the only issue I have is I'm
not really great at measuring things and keeping things straight
and orderly, but putting them up is.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Not that difficult.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So if you want to make your own plant wall,
I linked them on my Instagram and also save them
in my Amazon store that you can find from the
link in my bio on my Instagram. But they're just
from Amazon. They came in two days if you have
Amazon Prime. Super simple, fun way to add some life
into a space.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So highly recommend.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Now that I have finished gassing up plant propagation walls.
Let's get into what we are here to talk about today.
So solo episode again. And I teased, I think I
didn't tease. I think I told you guys what this
week was going to be about. And it's all about
how to disagree well, how to fruitful conversations where the
(04:02):
goal is not to change somebody's mind, and the goal
is not for your mind to be changed, but the
goal is just to have a conversation with somebody that
maybe you don't have the same take with. And this
doesn't have to just be a debates like on big
political topics or just some of the very popular debate
topics in the world. It doesn't have to just be
(04:23):
about that stuff. This can be about experiences that you've had,
maybe some arguments you've had based on you guys both
having different experiences at the same time. It's something that
I think can be helpful in a lot of different
kinds of conflicts. And I've talked a lot about our
current cultures and abilities to sit with differing opinions and
(04:44):
our constant pursuit of right and wrong many times on
this podcast. I feel like I bring it up a
lot because it is part of so many of the
things that we struggle with in this world. And when
I think about that, there's one experience since that really
pops up in my head very vibrantly, and it was
(05:05):
a couple of years ago. I actually became, since this experience,
pretty disappointed in myself after I cut off an opportunity
for really maybe difficult but also fruitful conversation abruptly because
the person I was talking to had a different opinion
than mine. And I can admit now that in that
(05:26):
instance I just felt incredibly self righteous and protective and correct.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I just cut off the ability to.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Have any conversation because I wasn't interested in hearing it.
But it wasn't just because I wasn't interested in hearing
this person's opinion or take, although I would have said
that back then, and it was actually a couple years
after this happened. I was sitting in a therapist's office
that I was seeing, not my own office, and I
(05:57):
brought up through something else, this residual feeling that I
had of this just achiness from that experience from that moment,
and to be honest, I doubt the other parties that
were involved in that conversation even remember and would remember
what I'm talking about, But it actually had changed how
(06:18):
I felt about them because I just created some stories
and assumed things because I wasn't willing to have a
conversation and I don't really like that, And that's what
I kind of brought up in therapy a couple months ago.
And when we have conversations with people who have different
opinions or outlooks, I see, and also I'm included in this.
(06:40):
I see a lot of those conversations coming from a
place where I'm trying to convince the other person that
I'm right and they're wrong, versus just helping someone understand
why I think what I think, or being open to
understand why somebody else thinks what they think. And if
we are trying to be right and prove that point,
then we're not actually able to listen openly.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
We don't do that.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
We're listening defensively, and because of that, we're not able
to better understand our friends because we're listening to find
ways to prove our points. And I know that I
lost an opportunity to understand somebody better because I was
afraid that listening to them would make me not like them.
But then I was later making up stories about them
(07:24):
because I didn't have that conversation, and I made up
how that conversation would have gone in my head, and
I was really lacking the awareness that you can disagree
with a person's opinion and still like them, which seems
so simple but at the same time very difficult. And
maybe if I understood more about why their opinion was
what it was and why they thought what they thought,
(07:44):
then I would be able to know that I can
like somebody and still love somebody and disagree with them
on big important things. But if we don't allow ourselves
to have those conversations, then we don't allow ourselves to
gain that evidence and believe that that is a true
thing that can happen. And I know in my upbringing,
going through school, we were taught how to debate. It
(08:05):
was part of it was like a project that we
did in high school. We all had to do it.
We were literally taught how to have debates. We were
taught how to win arguments growing up, but we weren't
taught how to respectfully disagree with somebody, which is very
interesting to me because just because you can win an argument,
it doesn't necessarily mean you were right, So why wouldn't
(08:27):
we want to know more about how to coexist than how.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
To pick aside and prove it.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
And as I was preparing for this episode, I found
an article on Psychology Today that it gave like six
steps and tips to help have conversations with somebody that
you don't agree with in a healthy, functional way. And
they were good starting points, but also they were a
little bit too direct from my taste, So I've actually
decided not to share those because I like to give
(08:55):
frameworks that allow people to make things their own and
allow things to feel authentic to them versus just going
through the motions. So I kind of reworked some of
what I've found to give more simple and tangible tips
versus these linear steps that you have to engage in
that tell you exactly how to have a conversation. So
(09:17):
I want you to take these how you want, and
really if you use them, and when you use them,
I want you to assess how using these tips they're
not steps, they're just they're really just suggestions. Assess how
they allow you to show up more regulated in disagreements,
because when we are having these really heated disagreements, a
lot of times we've become disregulated and then we don't
(09:38):
even actually show up how we really want to show
up with people. So let's just get into what I
came up with. So I think for starters, number one,
what I would really suggest to people is, let's acknowledge
that we don't have to be persuaded in these conversations,
and we don't have to persuade the other person. This
is not about convincing some that you are correct. Disagreements
(10:03):
can end in disagreeing, and they kind of have to
have the ability to do that because there's not always
a right or wrong in situations. Not everything is so
black and white. So we can hold our beliefs still
while also listening with respect to our peers, our friends,
our partners. So I really, in the beginning want to
(10:24):
encourage people to name the real goal here as understanding
versus convincing. And then number two, I believe it is
super helpful to kindly acknowledge that you guys do not agree.
From the beginning, that seems kind of silly. Establishing this
awareness that you are different might seem a little like
(10:45):
d obviously at certain times in these conversations. However, what
it does is it sets you both up to be
able to show up independently and free to do that.
It kind of just I think sometimes levels the playing
field and allows some relief to come. And this can
sound differently depending on who you are, but an easy
(11:06):
way to acknowledge this is just to say, hey, I
know we share different perspectives on what happened, and that's okay.
I really want to help you understand why I think
X y Z, and I also.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Want to understand you as well.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And it may not change our minds on what we think,
but it might help change how we feel about each other.
So are you open to that? And again, you can
say that in your own words, however it would naturally
come out of your mouth. You don't have to follow
this exact script. And then the next little tip I have,
(11:43):
number three is assuming this is someone you respect and
care for, can you show up and take a stance
of assumption of good intent to start out with Let's
just start with that versus starting to kind of play
that gotcha game and waiting for a chance to step
in tell them why they're wrong. If we love and
respect this person and their person, that's important to us,
(12:06):
and that we have a relationship with that we want
to foster to any degree. Let's assume that they are
good meaning people to begin with, versus trying to prove
why they are bad or wrong or what have you.
So listen for why what they are saying makes sense
for them versus you. Their opinion is not about you,
(12:28):
it's about them, and also vice versa, your opinion is
about you, So listen to why what they're saying makes
sense for them versus you and your experience of the world.
And with that number four, ask for clarification when you
still don't understand something, And remember, understanding here is different
(12:48):
than agreeing. Stay in the lane of curiosity over judgment.
I love that as a phrase to replay over and
over in my head. Stay curious versus judgmental. And remember
that understanding why someone thinks something does not mean that
you agree. So we are trying to understand them. We
are not trying to agree with them. Therefore, when you
(13:10):
don't understand it, it's not because you haven't been convinced.
Do not wait to be convinced or wait for them
to be convinced. That's again go back to the first tip.
It's really not the goal in how to disagree, Well,
that's the goal, and how to convince somebody of that
you're right. Proving your point, right, that's the goal. Proven
your point. So the next one, number five, which I
(13:34):
really imagine at some point you're gonna be in one
of these conversations, Like talking about them on this podcast
seems really like, oh, this is so light and fun,
and disagreeing can be so beautiful and care free and
oh so soothing. Okay, but probably not. There's gonna be
a lot of instances where you're having these conversations where
you are like, oh my gosh, this is driving me crazy.
(13:57):
What they're saying is making me feel crazy. I want
to yell, I want to tell them, I want to
just say something unfiltered. It's not all going to feel
really rainbows and butterflies. There's going to be tension. And
when somebody says something that to you feels outrageous or
crazy or like something that you'd want to be like,
are you kidding me? That's okay. When somebody says something
(14:19):
wild that you think is wild, that is okay. This
is going to happen, I assume, and it's not our
job to criticize their views here, and it's totally cool
to say, hey, I hear you say you believe x
y Z.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Because of ABC and then leave it there.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It might still feel crazy to you to say that,
but again that's not the point. You're trying to understand somebody,
so that will probably be really hard. You'll want to
defend and disprove and educate in all the things, and
you can do that, but again that would not align
with the goal of understanding somebody versus being right, So
always go back to that goal. You're not trying to
(15:01):
convince them that they're wrong or that they are crazy.
The goal is to understand why they think what they think.
So I hear you say you believe blank because of blank? Boom,
got it, Which leads us to the next little tip.
When necessary, So this is number six. But when when necessary,
(15:22):
especially when you think something is wild and out or
you're justn't crazy, do repeat back what you say that
same sentence, right, I hear you say you believe x
y Z because of ABC, Repeat it back and say
did I get it right? Because a lot of times,
when we have a lot of emotion in conversations and
when things do feel wild to us, we start hearing
(15:42):
stories in our head that actually have not come out
of this person's mouth.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
So it's very, very very important to.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Say, I hear you say exactly what they said versus
how you interpreted it, and if you interpreted it incorrectly
and you said something they didn't say, get the chance
to say, oh, no, that's I didn't say that. Let
me try again, and then they can say it again,
and then you can say back to them, Okay, so
I heard.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
You say da da da da da da da da.
Did I get it right?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
And do that until they say, yeah, you got it.
And again, this is I'm repeating what I heard, not
what I made up about what I heard. And this
will help you keep in line with that goal and
allow those emotions to be there and acknowledge that they're
there and they're going to come up. But I need
to slow myself down before I start making stories and
(16:33):
get confused not about what they're actually saying, but about
the story that I'm making up about what they're saying.
So repeat and ask for clarification. And then the last thing,
number seven, the seventh tip that I want to offer
to you guys, is summarize anything new that you learned
that actually might have been helpful to you, or that
(16:55):
actually might have been interesting, anything that you got out
of that conversation. And again, this does not mean that
you are then agreeing with them and they've changed your mind.
It can just be like, oh, wow, I actually learned
something in this conversation, and I want to thank you
for that. So, wow, that's really interesting what you shared
about drug overdoses. I was not aware of that, and
(17:18):
I actually really do want to learn more about that.
And I also really appreciate the chance to learn more
about you, even if I don't fully agree with everything
you're saying. So you get to offer a little bit
of Hey, this wasn't just us disagreeing. We both can
get something out of this. We both can understand each
other better, and hey, I might learn something along the way.
(17:38):
And just because I learned something along the way doesn't
mean I'm saying I agree with you. It's just saying, hey,
this was helpful and I appreciate it. So I really
think it can be helpful at the end to acknowledge
things that you have learned.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Even though you have not totally.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Decided that you now agree with what they're saying. It
doesn't have to be this all or nothing in black
and white situation, because rarely it is.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So those are my seven tips, and I do want
to say I realize that this is easier said than done,
and it's going to take some practice in some time
for this to feel natural if you have never thought about,
or learned or attempted to have fruitful conversations when you disagree.
And I also want to acknowledge that it can be
(18:25):
really difficult, near impossible to have a respectful conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
On your own.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
So what I mean by that is the other party
involved in these conversations really also needs to come from
a similar place for this to be fruitful, and if
they can't, that is totally okay. And it's okay for
you to say, hey, I really want to be able
to talk about this and learn from you and have
a conversation with you here. However, I can really only
(18:53):
do that if we both agree to aim for understanding
versus a win on either of our side. And so
if we can't agree on a goal for this conversation,
I don't know if it would be really helpful for
us to have it, because then it can kind of
make things worse if your goals are not aligning in
those conversations. And it's also okay to ask for a
break when you need it, even if you guys both
(19:14):
agreed on a goal for this conversation, because things can
still get heated and heavy, and when we enter into
our survival brain, we lose our full capacity to reason
and allow understanding to be a goal when we are
operating from a place of pure emotion. So ask for
a break, and it doesn't have to be a thirty
(19:37):
minute break, and be like, hey, I feel myself getting
really hot, I feel myself getting really jumbled. Hey, I
feel myself getting overwhelmed. Give me a second. I'm gonna reply,
and I want to continue to have this conversation, but
I just need a second. And you can do that
in the conversation and it can be like a minute,
or you can just like, hey, I'm gonna go walk
(19:57):
outside and take a couple of breasts and then.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Come back in.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I say a lot of times in my conversation set
are difficult, and it doesn't even have to be one
where where I'm disagreeing with somebody, but just difficult conversations
because I have really had to learn how to slow
myself down sometimes because I can just go at it.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I try to be very slow.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
To respond, and I let the person know, like, hey,
I'm not not responding. I'm gathering my thoughts before I
say something because I want to make sure I'm saying
what I want to say. So that's another little thing
you can do. Okay, So I know this was a
shorter episode. However, I also think this can be a
really helpful episode for the majority of people out there,
(20:38):
because we are all going to have a disagreement with
somebody at some point in our lives, and why wouldn't
we want to be able to do that well, So,
like I said, encourage you to take this as a practice.
How can I get better at having these conversations versus
how can I be perfect at disagreeing because that it
does not exist? And just be really kind to yourself
(20:59):
as you practice new ways to communicate in a way
that is going to work better for you in the
long run. If you would like to follow the podcast,
if you would like to follow me, you can do
that at You Need Therapy podcast on Instagram. You can
do that at Kat dot Defada on Instagram, and you
can also follow my therapy practice at three Quarts Therapy
(21:19):
on Instagram. If you have any questions, feedback, thoughts that
you want to share, you can email me Katherine kat
h r y M at you Need Therapy podcast dot
com And if you have not done so yet and
maybe you're a new listener, I would love love, love,
love love in the season of giving and holiday cheer.
(21:40):
If you guys would rate and review this podcast specifically
on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, you can do that. Spotify
is at the top, Apple it is probably more towards
the bottom. If you want to leave a kind little
comment what you like, some constructive feedback if you feel necessary.
I also am very open to that kind of stuff
(22:02):
through email as well. If you want to share something
that you liked or something that didn't sit well, or
just some feedback in general, you can always do that.
Always open to it because I always want to learn
and grow, just how the people listening to this podcast
usually are listening because they also want to learn and grow.
So until Wednesday, when I come back for couch Talks,
(22:23):
I hope you guys have the day you need to
have and I will talk to you soon.
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