November 29, 2021 • 44 mins
This week we are deep diving into this term that is popping up everywhere, Gaslighting. Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation that attempts to make individuals question their own reality in order to gain power and control over them. And, the scary thing is- it can happen to anyone. There is good news though and Kat (@kat.defatta) is going solo this week to make sure we all know that there is a way to get out of these kinds of tangled webs. Listen this week to gain a better understanding of what Gaslighting actually is, how to spot it, and what to do when you feel like you are being gas lit.
Links for episodes and articles that were talked about:
11 Red Flags of Gaslighting in a Relationship
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Have a question, concern, guest idea, something else? Reach Kat at: Kathryn@youneedtherapyodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, and welcome back to another new episode of You
Need Therapy. My name is Kat and I'm the host here.
It's another solo episode day here, and this week we're
talking about something that I've talked about a little bit before,
but I've never actually dedicated an entire episode about it
on here, and I think it is about time, because
(00:31):
there's enough information around it that it could be not
only its own episode, but a series. It could beat
its own podcast, probably, but we're not gonna do that.
Before we get going, quick reminder that this is not therapy.
This is just me, a therapist talking about, you know,
things that have to do with mental health and things
I have to do with therapy. And also quick reminder
while we're here, if you want to follow me, you
(00:52):
can on Instagram at cat dot de fata, or you
can follow the podcast at You Need Therapy Podcast. And
if you want to really really make me happy and
make my day, and by the way, it's my birthday week.
My birthday is on Saturday, so if you really want
to give me a birthday gift, you can scroll to
the bottom of Apple Podcasts and rate us or rate
(01:14):
me and hopefully give me five stars. And if you
feel called to give a little comment, put a little
comment on there. I love it. I appreciate those. And
if you have questions or constructive feedback, you can send
that to me personally. You can send it to my
email Catherine at You Need Therapy Podcast dot com. And
if you have questions for couch Talks, which is the
Wednesday episode where I answer questions that you guys send in,
(01:35):
send them there. Catherine K A t h R y
N at You Need Therapy Podcast dot com. Okay, now
let's get into the episode. So we're talking about all
things gas lighting today. And again I'm pretty sure we
talked about this a little bit when we covered narcissism
in a full episode that came out last I think
(01:56):
it was December. However, we didn't spend that much time
on it, and I hear this word being said now
more than ever, so I think it's important that we
stop and take some time to figure this out so
we can spot it ourselves and know when this is
actually occurring and when we maybe just might be using
the fancy word right. And we'll get to this later,
(02:18):
but there's a difference in the technique somebody uses when
attempting to create a gas lighting effect on somebody and
the actual experience of being gas lit gas lighted. I'm
not sure if which is correct. So anyway, somebody like
for example, somebody denying something alone doesn't mean that they're
gaslighting you, but it could be part of it. So
we'll get more into that later. But that's one of
(02:39):
the things that I wanted to talk about. And then
also I just have to say I have a personal
I guess I wouldn't call it connection to gaslighting, but
I've experienced at firsthand a while ago in a relationship
that the time was very important to me, and I
have so much love and care for the girl, the
human that went through that experience and didn't know what
was happening. And since then, I found myself in relationships,
(03:01):
whether they're dating or friendships or work related. Why I
found myself in similar situations and had similar feelings, And
because I understand what this is now, I'm better able
to separate myself from it so I don't get caught
in the same I guess trap, and I've been able
to get out and not get caught up in that,
(03:22):
and so that's one of the reasons I think this
is so valuable because I wish I had this information
back then. I don't know what it would have done
or how it would have shifted because I was a
different person back then, but I just know that it
would have been valuable. And so I just want you
guys to know if you have feelings of like, oh
this is me, or like I felt this, or there's
any shame that might come up, like, I want you
to know that I've been there. I've totally been there.
(03:43):
So what is gaslighting? Well, and the most basic definition,
gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse, and it's where
a person tries and successfully usually does, make someone question
their sanity or perception or their reality. And when you
experience gas letting, you're going to feel confused, You'll probably
(04:04):
feel some anxiousness, and you stop being able to trust yourself. However,
when this starts, you don't actually know that you're being
gas lit, so those feelings feel very like accurate and true.
It's not like an anxious I know I'm right and
this person won't agree with you. It's this anxiousness around
like I really started to question myself. And this kind
(04:24):
of manipulation doesn't just get thrown at you. So it
doesn't work that way. It doesn't start all of a sudden,
It slowly kind of creeps up, and very often it
starts with a love bombing experience, especially when this happens
in romantic relationships. And I didn't say this up top,
but gas letting can happen in any kind of relationship.
A lot of times we hear stories about it being
(04:46):
in um romantic relationships and partnerships, but this can be friends,
this can be a boss, this can be um, a parent,
it can be a leader of any sort. There's a
power differential there, but there's usual really a experience of
this love bombing effect first. And we hear about love
bombing and romantic relationships mostly too, but love bombing also
(05:07):
can happen in any of those other experiences, right, And
and I went through in more detail what love bombing
is in the episode that we did on Love Addiction
with Melanie Reese that came out earlier this year. But
we'll talk about a second here, And it's when a
relationship starts with like big bombs of admiration and attention. Again,
doesn't just have to be in romantic relationships. We see
(05:29):
that a lot though, And it can be kind of similar,
which is confusing um with how relationships are portrayed in
Hollywood and movies and stuff, which again it's not very
helpful because we see that all the time and we
see as normal. But it's like that I'm obsessed with
you from day one right. Any time that happens, let
that be an important red flag. Like when the people
(05:51):
are where that person is like all in and all
about you from the day they met you. You're the
greatest person ever. They're the greatest person I've ever met.
You're the best at this that I've ever experience, And
it's like all the sudden, it's it's like an overwhelming
amount of love for someone, and for someone with an
anxious attachment style, this is very much appreciated, which is
super hard. It also, this love bombing is like a
(06:14):
foreshadowing to being gaslight. Right. They win you over with
their affection and you begin to trust them and believe
that you have this incredible fairytale bond and then dune
undone they start to turn the tables, but they have
that backstory for you to hold onto, because how often
do we hear ourselves saying it was so good in
the beginning or they were so kind of the beginning.
I know we can get back there, but was that real?
(06:36):
Was that really them? Or was that the beginning of
them trying to get you to where they wanted you
to be? Scary question, hard question. I don't like that question. Backstory,
I find this interesting. But people are like, what does
gas letting come from? Well, it comes from a play
that then got turned into a movie. I've never seen
this movie. It's called Gaslight. And what happens in the
(06:59):
movie is there's a husband and a wife and the
husband manipulates and is turning down this like actual gaslight,
dimming the lights and telling her that he's not and
she's like, oh, it's getting darker and he's like, no,
it's not. And he's convincing her that she's crazy. Right.
He wants to convince her that she can't trust her
reality so then he can commit her to a mental institution.
(07:19):
So that's where that comes from. That's where we get
the phrase gaslight. Now you will hear this as a
common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, like cult leaders, And
when I hear those things, I think that can sound
very extreme. And then I know me. I'm very defensive
towards myself, so I might say something like that would
(07:41):
never happen to me. I would never be an abusive relationship.
I would never let somebody do this. I would never
because those things seem so big and heavy. But again,
this is a form of emotional psychological manipulation, which can
be harder to identify and recognize and prove invalidate and
because of that, more debilitating at the same time, Right,
(08:03):
we minimize this kind of stuff. And I started watching
the Netflix show the new one um called Made, and
I mean trigger warning. It's it's about a a woman
who has a kid is in this domestic abuse situation,
and it's her story of getting free. I only watched
two episodes because I just was crying and I was like,
this is very sad and this is not what I
(08:25):
need right now. I don't know if I'll finish it,
but this that I do know. The first couple of episodes,
it had such a good and realistic view on how
victims of abuse minimize their abuse. Right, Like, he didn't
hit me, so I'm not abused. Like I don't want
to call myself a victim because that's taking away from
people who really are victims of of abuse, and if
(08:47):
it's not abuse, then what would this be? And it
becomes just like almost moral failing on ourselves of like
we're the bad people, which is part of the psychological abuse.
It's part of the cycle like makes us think that
we're the bad, wrong people when really we're not. We're
victims of abuse, and we can become survivors. If we
don't like that word, we don't have to sit in
it forever. You can become a survivor. But to survive abuse,
(09:11):
a lot of times we have to recognize that we're
in that cycle. So watch that show if you're interested
in what that looks like. But also trigger warning. It can't.
I mean I haven't been in a relationship like that,
but it was triggering to me and my feelings and
my feelings didn't need it that day. Maybe I'll finish later.
(09:31):
I also think that it's important to mention here while
we're on this part, that anyone is susceptible to gas lighting. Anybody.
It doesn't just happen to weak people, are those with
a fragile sense of self or those with insecure attachment styles.
It can happen to anybody. And yes, those things I
just mentioned could be risk factors and could create a
(09:53):
higher likelihood of this happening, But this can happen to anyone.
And also those things aren't bad or wrong things, right, Like,
there's probably a reason there's a fragile sense of self,
there's probably a reason that there's an insecure attachment style.
So that doesn't mean you're bad or wrong either, if
that does fit with you. But I also don't want
people to demonize themselves because again, this is what these
(10:13):
people want us to think, that that we're the ones
and the wrong. I don't want you to demonize yourself
for this happening. You don't ask for this. There's nothing
that you do that says, oh, do please manipulate me,
please psychologically abuse me. This is there's no your fault
in this. And I think when we start to say, oh,
it was because I had a weak sense of self
or it's because I am just not confident, it's like,
(10:35):
you can't blame yourself for being abused. That's not fair
and it's not helpful and it's not true. So shall
we talk about what it might look like? Um, so
you can spot it. And this is tricky because, like
I said, you often don't know what's happening at first,
especially if you don't know what gaslighting is. So that's
one of the reasons why we're doing this. And this
is an attempt to control someone else by twisting their
(10:58):
sense of reality. So when this is happening, what is
happening is somebody is twisting your sense of reality. You
start grounded, you start knowing what's true and what's not true.
You start knowing the sky is blue, and then somebody
slowly does things that allows them to twist your sense
of reality where you might think, oh, the sky is blue.
I know it's blue. It's blue, that's a fact. And
(11:20):
then later down the line you are still seeing the
sky being blue, but you're saying, I bet this guy
has red and I'm seeing blue because I don't see
real reality. I can't trust myself. I have to listen
to what this person in power is telling me. Very confusing.
So back to in the beginning of this conversation when
I said that there's a difference in the techniques and
(11:41):
that the gas lighting effect right, So we'll get to this.
But denial is a technique or tactic that's used in
this process. But denial in itself is not gas lighting.
So if somebody denies something that doesn't just automatically like
you're gas lighting me, maybe that could be part of it.
But I think sometimes people just deny things because of
(12:04):
other reasons and they're not gas lighting you. It might
be a self protection there can be a lot of
stuff in that. They might just be lying to get
out of trouble. Doesn't mean they're gas lighting. So I
just want to separate that denial in its own right
is not gas lighting. It might be something that somebody
uses to get to that point. So, like I said,
there's techniques that are used to do this, So let's
(12:25):
break them down. I got a UM list of we're
gonna go through two different things, but I got this
first list of techniques, the actual just like words. I
took them from the National Domestic Violence Hotline, so you
can visit that UM website, the hotline dot org UM.
So I took the five techniques from there. They really
(12:45):
fit and I think they're helpful, and and then I'm
going to talk about each one. But I didn't make
those up, and I just wanted to make that clear.
So let's talk about these five techniques. So one way
or one thing that somebody might do UM in order
to create this this narrative is withholding, so means that
they refuse to listen to information or pretend like they
(13:07):
don't understand the information, or just like separate themselves from
the ability to have the conversation. So you might hear
things like you're not making any sense or I don't
have time for this. When you bring something up that
you think is important, or when you try to talk
about a conflict or just anything in that relationship, UM,
they might say things like I'm not going to go
through this again, even if you never went through it
(13:28):
once or we already talked about this, and maybe you
did talk about it, maybe you didn't, or maybe you
talked about it and they shut you down. But very
much they will just like not allow that conversation to
come to fruition. That's one. Then we have countering. So
this is when somebody's kind of like questioning the person,
as in, if it's you that's being manipulated, they're questioning
(13:50):
your memory or your essential reality of the event. So
this one actually bothers me a lot, like I think
it might be one of the most frustrating for me
because they take something that actually can be used for
super helpful communication and turn it against you. Like when
we're having conversations and we're having conflict and somebody might
hear something that somebody didn't say, right. So if somebody says,
(14:12):
like I don't have time to go to this event
with you tomorrow, I might hear them say they don't
they don't want to go, but they never said that, right,
They said they didn't have time. And so when you
have a healthy communication, you can talk about that and
you can say like, I heard you say that you
didn't want to go. The person can reply back, oh,
I actually didn't say that. I totally get that that's
(14:32):
what you heard. Um, I actually I didn't have time
and I actually would want to go, but I don't
have time. And so you can have a healthy conversation
around like oh miscommunication. But in this experience, they'll say
things like that's what you heard in your head. It's
not what I said, even though it is what they said.
And that can be so confusing because sometimes we do
hear things wrong. Um, so you can you can say
(14:54):
to yourself, well, maybe I did hear that wrong and
so they'll say it like, oh, come on, I never
said at or like that's what you heard, but you
know I would never say something like that, or you're
just being overly sensitive things like that. Then the third
technique is blocking or diverting. So this is like kind
of changing the subject and you start to question your
thinking and not just like changing the subject to like
(15:17):
the fight we had to, like where are we going
to go to dinner? They'll say things to like downplay
your experience, like you're overreacting. So the subject moves from
this thing that happened, this conflict you had, to your
reaction to the conflict and you being an overreact or
or too sensitive or something like that. And so they'll
say things like why would you let something so stupid
(15:38):
come between us? This seems silly, Like you're being silly.
You always blew things out of proportion, You are always
picking fights, you always have to be right, you always
play the victim, and so then now you're arguing about
that rather than talking about what you actually were trying
to talk about. So confusing, okay, And then number four
is trivializing, and so this is just making the person
(16:00):
feelings seem like really unimportant like again, and some of
these fall into similar categories like I don't know why
you're making such a big deal of this. You're being insecure,
you're too sensitive, and that can just make somebody be like, oh,
maybe I am overreacting, Like well, maybe if I just
stop overreacting, then we won't have this conflict and then
everything will be better, Like I don't want to have conflict,
(16:20):
So if it's me and I'm just overreacting, then maybe
I'll stop overreacting and then we won't have conflict. So
then you're looking to the person or the person in
power to kind of be your meter of like does
this experience warrant this kind of reaction? I don't know,
because I overreact, and so things that I think are
a big deal aren't a big deal, and I just
need to get over them because it's me. It's all
(16:42):
about me. It's me. It's me, it's me. I'm the problem.
And then the last one is forgetting or like just
straight up denial, which oh my gosh, it could be
so frustrating. And this is when the person just straights
up straight up denies something or they forget they act
like they forget what happened, or they just like deny
that they ever agreed to something or that they ever
(17:03):
said something. They just straight up our lying, which is like, again,
these people just are lying, which you cannot argue with
somebody who's lying. And they'll say things like I never
said that, I never did that, or they'll say you
never said that, or you never told me that, or
you never did that, and all of this. Actually I know,
I said in the beginning of this episode that I
(17:23):
had been in experience like this years ago, and this
was with a romantic partner, and I was like in it,
so like I had no idea what was going on.
And again I thought I was crazy. I thought it
was very selfish. I thought I was a bad person.
And what would happen a lot of times when we
would argue is I would go silent because I didn't
know how to respond, because if I agreed, it felt
(17:45):
like I was abandoning part of myself, and if I argued,
then it wouldn't be helpful. And so many times I
would hear myself say things like I don't understand how
we got here, how are we talking about this? What
are we even talking about? And then they would say
things to make me feel like stupid for being confused,
(18:06):
and so then I would just go silent. And then
when I went silent, then I became the bad person
because then I'm giving this silent treatment and all of this,
and then I'm playing the victim. And it's like, well,
I do feel like a victim right now, but then
I can't be the victim, and so horrible cycle. Good
news as I got out of it. But this actually,
as I'm telling this story, is reminding me of of
an experience I had recently with somebody. And I share
(18:28):
this because I mean it when I say this can
happen to anybody, like you can be in a relationship,
any kind of relationship. Again, it's not just romantic. Anybody
can get into a relationship with a person that uses
this type of manipulation. It's important to understand how to
spot it and how to get out, because if you
don't spot it, you'll find yourself in a cycle, and
(18:49):
then you'll start to feel either really frustrated or crazy
or does you'll be spinning your wheels. And if I
hadn't had this experience in my past and I knew
what it felt like, and I had this information I
probably would have questioned myself in this most recent experience,
and instead I just became very, very, very frustrated because
what I wanted is to have a conversation that made
sense with this person, and this person wouldn't allow that.
(19:12):
And I wanted so badly to see the good in
this person, and I wanted so badly to believe that
we could create a healthy relationship, a healthy friendship, a
healthy partnership. I wanted to believe that that could happen,
because in the beginning of our relationship, everything was very good, kind,
open um, we valued each other very much. I thought,
(19:35):
not that that's not true, but this was just very frustrating,
and I just became very frustrating cause I was like, no,
I just didn't want to believe that this is what
was happening. And I think that's something that can get
us stuck to It's like, we don't want to believe
that these people are doing that. We want to see
the good. We want to see how this relationship can
be something helpful or strong or any of that. And
(19:58):
it's hard to just walk away from when there is
something that's built underneath of it. And so very very
long story short. I wish I could tell honestly, I
wish I could tell you the whole story, but it's
not appropriate for the podcast and we don't have time.
It would be a whole series. But when my friends
asked me when we had our like we're no longer friends,
and when I finally decided to walk away permanently from
(20:22):
this relationship and friendship, my friends asked me to tell
the story and to tell this experience in this conversation,
to tell them about it, and I just said to them,
I gave them the bits and pieces that I could,
But then I said, I like, I actually can't tell
you about this conversation because it's so confusing and it
doesn't make sense, and my brain doesn't have the ability
(20:43):
to recall it because the things that were said just
don't make sense, like chronologically, like I would say something
and then this person would say something that did not
have anything to do with what I just said, or
would like counter what I just said in a very
strange way. And so a lot of times when you
have conversations, the conversation flows right and so it's easy
(21:05):
to recall. This conversation was all over the place, which
he was very good at using his tactics that like,
I couldn't even tell the story, and I think that's
part of what happens, right, So when our friends are like,
what's happened, we can't even tell them, and so then
we feel like there's something wrong with us. I am
questioning my reality. I am questioning my memory because I
(21:27):
can't even tell you what happens, so you can't even
back me up. But really, to me, I think that
was a part of my brain saying, hey, Kat, this
doesn't make sense. We don't know where to put this,
so we're not going to store it. He would say
things that like five minutes ago we agreed on. Literally,
he told me I was playing the victim as I
was taking responsibility for something that in all honesty, I
(21:47):
didn't want to take responsibility for, but I just kind
of want to like move on and it wasn't that
big of a deal to me. But as I was
doing that, it's like, you always play the victim, and
I'm like, name two times where I did that. So
they use these like all or nothing, very extreme words, right,
So there's a sign right there. And he told me
to let him speak, and that I never let anyone
else talk, so again, very extreme. I never but then
(22:09):
when I spoke, he would interrupt me over and over
and over again, where I literally could not even get
a sentence in. So again that my old behaviors came
in where I'm like, I'm just going to be quiet
and listen, and he made these accusations towards me that
I very much knew or not true. Um. He said
things like I'm the most judgmental person he's ever met.
And that's a gross overstatement, right, the most judgmental person
(22:29):
he's ever met. Like, sure, I'm not perfect, so at
times I might be judgmental, but I know I'm not
the most judgmental person that somebody's ever met. And the
thing is, you can't argue with these people because the
more you try to prove your point, the more heavier
their accusations get. Right, and if you try to disagree,
they'll make you feel stupid or they'll try to make
you feel crazy. And there's no compromise with these kinds
(22:50):
of people either. They're not trying to compromise, they're trying
to manipulate you. And to tell tale sign you're in
this dance is when you feel crazy which is confusing
because they want to make you feel crazy, because then
I feel crazy, then they have power over you. But
when you start to feel crazy and you haven't always
felt like you're crazy, that's your sign of like my
(23:11):
head spinning, I cannot connect these dots. I feel crazy.
Maybe I'm being manipulated. So the second you start to
feel crazy, that is your second red flag after the
love bombing one. So a question you'll hear a lot,
(23:31):
and something you might wonder yourself, why don't people like
stand up for themselves and why or why don't they
leave and all that? And because most people don't want
to leave and they don't want to threaten the relationship. Right,
So even in this last example that I'm giving you,
I didn't want to leave. I I did want to
find a way to to make this work, and so
part of me wanted to deny what was happening until
(23:53):
I just couldn't. And when you actually do stand up
to this kind of thing, either their manipulation gets worse
or the relationship gets threatened. And if I don't want
to leave, that means I don't want the relationship to end,
which means I also don't want it to be threatened,
So I'm just not going to do that. Therefore, you
don't press on certain issues. And I talked about this
(24:14):
all the time. I'm guilty of wanting to believe the
goodness of everyone. And if you have a love bombing experience, right,
you want to believe in the goodness that this partner
or boss or human has because you've gone through that
phase where you saw it and you also saw how
good and you heard how good and special the relationship
(24:34):
and quotes was or is. So we go back to
this like rosy retrospect, like but it was so good
and we were so good and he was so kind
and he was so understanding back then. Okay, but where
are we now? And the more you push right on this,
the heavier the person who's gas letting may go in
and they can be ruthless, right, So there's no rationalizing
with them. So if we can get into our heads
(24:56):
right that the agenda they're pushing of the reality that
they're trying to make you believe or understand or adhere
to is not true. Right. But if you try to
stand up to this, they have this fake agenda, this
fake reality they're they're pushing. If you try to put
push against this. What will happen is they'll escalate. But
as they escalate, their manipulation will create you as the problem. Now, right,
(25:19):
So you're being dramatic, you're being crazy. Um, you you you,
you're making a big deal about this. Why don't you
just believe me? Why don't you just understand? Why do
you have to be so difficult? Why do you have
to question everything? And then it's like, whoa, Now I'm
deeper in this. Now what what did I do? How
did I create such a big deal out of this? Wow?
(25:40):
I'm just getting worked up talking about this. Okay. Also,
I don't know if this fits right here, but I
have to say because I don't know if I don't
remember if I said it. But I often think that
people just think gaslighting is when somebody denies something. So
what we already talked about how that's just a tactic.
But a lot of times we think gas lights when
somebody's denying truth, and that's just it. But it also
(26:00):
can be when they deny something that you did, or
they deny your memory. Um, and it's not just their
denying their behavior. There they might say things like you
never said that when you already did, or denying just
a memory of something of you, and it's not just
um them. So I think that's important too, UM, because
that can be really confusing when they're like you never
(26:20):
said sorry or you never told me that you wanted
me to be home at this time, and it's like, yes,
I did, I did say that. I swear I said that.
And we'll move into how we can kind of combat
that later, but I want to just make that point too.
And again, this happens over time. This isn't just like
a snap my fingers has happened. This happens over time.
And there is a great article that I want to share. Um.
(26:43):
This is not my information. I'm taking this from somebody else,
but there's a great article I want to share that
helps makes sense of why this can be so hard
to snap out of because it talks about the progression.
There's a woman named Stephanie Sarkis, and she wrote a
book called Gaslighting, Recognize mennipulative and emotionally abuse of People,
and Break Free. And she had an article on psychology
(27:06):
today that went viral, UM, and I think it went
viral because so many people are finally waking up to
the stuff and talking about this stuff and it's interesting.
And in this article she summarizes eleven ways how gaslighters
typically use the following techniques, which she details in her
book that I just mentioned, which I will link her book.
I haven't read this book, but I love the article.
(27:27):
So in this article, again she summarizes these eleven ways
how gaslighters typically use the techniques I'm going to mention,
and how this progression happened. So how you get from like, oh,
I'm a normal person that knows my reality to what
in the world I'm questioning everything? So here we're gonna
go through eleven Number one. I'll also link this article
(27:47):
as well, so if you want to just go back
and read it, because I'm just gonna read what she says.
So Number one, they tell blatant lies. You know it's
an outright lie. Yet they are telling you this lie
with a straight face. Why are they so blatant Because
they're setting up a precedent. Once they tell you a
huge lie, you're not sure if anything they say is true.
Keeping you unsteady and off kilter is the goal. Here.
(28:09):
Number two, they deny they ever said something, even though
you have proof. You know they said they would do something.
You know you heard it, but they out and out
deny it. It makes you start to question your reality.
Maybe they never said that thing. And the more they
do this, the more you question your reality and you
start accepting their's. It's like Chinese water torture. Right. The
(28:31):
longer this is me talking, not the the article, but
it's like the longer you do something, the more starts
to set in. And just like our belief systems about
like our core beliefs, the longer we believe we're not
good enough, the longer we tell that story, the more
we live in that screen, the more that becomes who
who we are and what we think and what our
reality is. Number three, they use what is near and
(28:51):
dear to you as ammunition. They know how important your
kids are to you, They know how important your identity
is to you, so those may become the first things
they attack. If you have kids, they tell you that
you should not have had those children. They will tell
you that you'd be a worthy person if only you
didn't have a long list of negative traits. They attack
the foundation of your being. So this is cat agan.
(29:12):
They go in on you. Number four, They wear you
down over time. This is one of the insidious things
about gas sighting. It's done gradually over time. A lie here,
a lie there, a snide comment every so often, and
then it starts ramping up. Even the brightest, most self
aware people can be sucked into gas fighting. It is
that effective. It's the frog and the frying pan analogy.
(29:34):
The heat is turned up slowly so the frog never
realizes what is happening to it, and then the frog dies.
This number five. Their actions do not match their words
when dealing with the person or entity that gaslights. Look
at what they are doing rather than what they're saying.
What they are saying means nothing. It is just talk.
What they're doing is the issue. I have to step
in here as cat again because this is one of
(29:54):
the things that's so tough, because you'll have these conversations
and they'll say like I'm sorry, be better, or they'll
have these moments of like goodness and trueness and care. However,
then their actions don't line up with that. But we
go back to well, they said this, they said this,
they said this right, But to trust and believe and
(30:14):
and and sit with somebody's trueness, their their speech and
their actions have to act together. We can't just pick one. Okay.
So number six they throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
This person or entity that is cutting you down, telling
you that you don't have value, is now praising you
for something you did. You think, Well, maybe they aren't
so bad. Yes they are. This is a calculated attempt
(30:36):
to keep you off kilter and again to question your reality. Also,
look at what you were praised for. It's probably something
that served the gas lighter. Again, so I love the
part where she's saying this is a calculated attempt to
keep you off kilter and question in reality is because
it's nothing is all the time, right, So you have
that evidence that's like they're not all bad? Yes, And
(30:57):
this is where we ask ourselves that percentage question. How
much of the percentage of this relationship do I feel crazy?
And how much do I feel like they are kind? Okay?
Number seven They know confusion weakens people. Gas Lighters know
that people have a sense of stability and normalcy. Their
goal is to uproot this and make you constantly question
everything and humans natural tendency is to look to the
(31:18):
person or entity that will help you feel more stable
and that happens to be the gas lighter. Really scary.
Number eight. They project they are a drug user or
a cheater, yet they're constantly accusing you of that. This
has done so often that you start to defend yourself
and then you're distracted from their behavior. Oh my gosh.
(31:39):
When you start defending yourself from things that you've this
is cadian. When you start defending yourself from things that like,
actually are so off, that is such a telltale sign, right, Like,
I'm defending myself, But have you ever had to defend
yourself from this before? In my experience, I was told
that I was selfish so often, and I really believe
that to the point where I apologize to my friends often,
(32:00):
like I'm so sorry for being so selfish and so
sorry for this and that. And the reality is we
all have a bit of selfishness and this if we're healthy,
and that's okay. But my friends were like, what are
you talking about? And so I was like, well, why
has nobody else told me this? And I thought my
friends were lyned, but really it was that I was
defending something that actually was not part of me. Number nine.
(32:22):
They tried to align people against you gas lighters are
masters at manipulating and finding the people they know will
stand by them no matter what, and they use these
people against you. They will make comments such as this
person knows that you're not right, or this person's knows
you're useless. To keep in mind, it does not mean
that these people actually said these things. A gas lighter
(32:43):
is a constant liar. When the gas lighter uses this tactic,
it makes you feel like you don't know who to
trust or who to turn to, and that lead you
right back to them, and that's exactly what they want.
Isolation gives them more control. I'll get to this, which
is why we need to reality check. And when we
feel like we're in these situations, a lot of times
we don't want to tell anybody about it because it's like, oh,
(33:03):
I don't want to tell me by dirty laundry or
this is just between us. But that's what they want.
They wanted to be between you, so then you don't
have anybody giving you a reality check. Number ten, they
tell you or others that you're crazy. This is one
of the most effective tools of the gas lighter because
it's dismissive. The gas lighter knows if they question your sanity.
People will not believe you when you tell them the
(33:25):
gas lighter is abusive or out of control. It's a
master technique. So what's the point If nobody's gonna believe me,
what's the point? And then eleven they tell you everyone
else is a liar. By telling you that everyone else,
your family, the media, X, Y Z is a liar,
it again makes you question your reality. You've never known
someone with the audacity to do this, so they must
(33:46):
be telling the truth right now. It's a manipulation technique.
It makes people turn to the gas lighter for the
correct information, which actually isn't correct at all. Oh man.
And I think one of the things that's highlighting these
steps is the idea this is kept talking about the article,
is the idea that, like, they want you in this isolation,
so you don't have any other information and you're going
(34:08):
to them to get it, and so what they say
and what they do is gold. My goodness, So I
have so many feelings right now, And if you have
so many feelings right now, I'm in it with you.
This is so frustrating, and this is the kind of
thing that I talk about this and I'm like, why
are these kind of people in the world, and why
is this something that we have to deal with and
(34:28):
and move through? And I don't have an answer for that.
I don't have an answer for why we have to
move through a lot of the tough things in life.
But I do have some helpful tips to help you
kind of get out of it not have to stay
in this. So let's kind of just talk about those
as we summarize and close out this conversation. And also
I will link that article in the show notes for
(34:49):
you guys, and I'll link the episode on love addiction,
and I'll link the episode that I did on narcissism
as well, So if you want some more information on
some of this stuff, you can go get that there
and link her book. Even though I want you guys
to know I haven't read it, so I can't vouch
for it. But here's some suggestions of what to do
um when you find yourself in a relationship like this,
(35:10):
whether it be parent, friend, spouse, romantic partner, boss, anything. No.
Right now that you are not weak, bad, or wrong
if you have experienced this, and this is so important,
abuse of any kind, does this thing that makes us
feel bad about ourselves for being found inside of it,
but nobody asks to be abused. It is not a
(35:31):
moral failing on you. And I need you guys to
know that you're not weak, bad, or wrong if you're
in this situation. It's not something to be ashamed about.
And the more we believe that, the more we'll get
stuck inside of it too. I want you guys to
pay attention to red flags. And this is something that's
so frustrating at the same time. I get it, but
there's so much like laughter and joking, nous and just
(35:53):
like what's the word like self deprecation around ignoring red
flags these days. And I get some of it and
some of it the humor. We need to not make
everything so heavy, but we've got to start paying attention
to red flags, especially when they're like this, because it
can really get you into some trouble. And again that's
not your fault, but when we are ignoring red flags,
(36:13):
we do have to take some responsibility for that. That part.
Perk up the first time you experience one of these techniques.
Perk up the first time you are experiencing love bombing,
just because you're having this like intense reaction in a relationship.
Early It doesn't mean it's going to end up in this,
but I at least want you to pay attention to it,
so you know, if one of these other things follows,
Hey I need to talk about this. Hey I need
(36:34):
to be mindful of this right down. When you experience
these things the first time, it's helpful to have written
accounts of these so when your memory as questions later,
when this gets heavier, you can go back and say, nope,
I'm not crazy. I didn't make this up. I wrote
this down. And also sometimes when we have that written down,
we can go, WHOA, this wasn't just a little small thing.
Look at all these accounts and one of um, I
(36:57):
actually found this later and this wasn't really what I
was doing. But I write a lot of letters to myself,
and I'll write text messages to myself instead of sending
them to people. And after this long ago relationship ended,
I found a letter that I had written and I
was like in this spot where I was like so
still kind of sad about the relationship, and I found
this letter and as I read it, I was like,
oh my goodness, I'm so glad I read wrote this
(37:20):
because now I'm reading this and realizing that this rosy
retrospect that I'm having was so off. So it's helpful
to write that stuff down. Number three, do not try
and argue. Be willing to leave these conversations with these
people without making your point or without feeling validated or understood.
There they very likely will not validate you. It can
be super disorienting to be in conversations with people who
(37:42):
are um using techniques to gaslight you, because what they're
doing is trying to knock you off your stability, knock
you off of your reality, and they'll change the path
of the discussion. Like I said, so if you're trying
to be understood and have a conversation about A, you
might be having a conversation about B later and then
all of a sudden you're blowing things out of proportion
(38:02):
or whatever one of the things that I said earlier,
when you're just trying to share your feelings and be validated.
So do not try to argue. Do not try to
beat a dead horse to get your feelings validated. Just
know that that might ever happen, and be willing to
leave without that. For don't try to rationalize, don't try
to outsmart this person. Do not try to manipulate the
(38:22):
person who's manipulating you, because again they're usually lying. And
if I'm going off of life, I can continue that
narrative as far as I need to go encounter anything
you say. And the more you try to outsmart the person,
the more you will get confused, because then you're not
actually sitting in your reality, right, You're trying to like
be a step ahead, but they're not in reality either,
so you're essentially letting go of your truth in order
(38:42):
to jump into this mind game. So being disengaged, like
disengaging from this stuff and being unbothered by them doing
these things, that's your best course of action to again,
be willing to walk away. Do not try to outsmart
this person. Master manipulators, right, and most healthy people are
not master manipulators. We don't have it in us because
(39:05):
when you're sitting and rooted in truth, a manipulation cannot
sit there as well. And then repeat this one needed.
This is my my fifth little tip. My feelings are valid.
No one else can tell me how to feel. Again,
my feelings are valid. No one else can tell me
how I feel. You can even add in there, my
reality is valid because listen, We're all walking around with
(39:26):
different realities, right, because we see things through different screens.
So just because your reality doesn't match up exactly as
somebody else's doesn't mean it's even false to begin with. Right,
So my feelings are valid, my reality is valid. No
one else can tell me how to feel. And then
the sixth thing I just want to drive this home
is like fine support, Find find support, reality check with
(39:49):
people you trust. So instead of hiding, right, instead of
hiding when somebody when you start to notice somebody's trying
to keep you small, keep you in this one on
one relationship where only going to reality check with one person,
I can only trust one person. That one person makes
me feel like I'm wrong all the time. Red red
red red red red, red, red, red, very very bright
red like neon flag. Always know that you should be
(40:12):
able to reality check with more than one person. So
find support, go to those people, ask them questions, talk
to them. And when you feel crazy, right, So when
I was like, I can't even tell the story because
it's so wild, know that, like, if you feel crazy,
it doesn't mean you are crazy. I think that's so important.
When you feel crazy, it doesn't mean you are crazy,
(40:33):
that just might be where somebody wants you to sit.
And when I feel crazy, sometimes it's because I'm being manipulated.
I'm actually not crazy. It makes me think of and
I think I'm gonna close it out with this of
the book Girl interrupted. It was also a movie um
with Angelina Jolie and Britney Murphy. It's super good, super dark.
I wouldn't recommend watching it alone at night. But in
(40:56):
the book. I read the book for a project in
grad school, and I think was like in the last chapter,
like the very end of it. Long story short, this
girl has spent a significant amount of time in a
mental health institution. Back then. I think they were even
called like a sane asylums things like that, which we
don't call them those. But she talked about how after
(41:18):
she left there she always had this essence of questioning
her reality. Because after somebody tells you enough times you're
crazy or crazy or crazy or crazy, essentially you're going
to believe them, right. And so the longer we stay
in these relationships where people are telling us this, the
more we're going to start to believe them. And and
she said, even after she got out, and there's a
part of her that knows she's not crazy, she would
(41:39):
question herself and she would be walking in the grocery
store and and and wonder, am I seeing these black
and white checkers on the tiles or is this my imagination?
And that just speaks to the power of what we
allow ourselves to hear and what we allow ourselves to
stay in. And so find people who you feel super
safe with and who make you feel stable, and who
make you feel like confidence around yourself, with people who
(42:02):
allow you to know that you're not crazy. Right when
we're around people that make us feel like we are crazy,
and that's never happened before Red Flak because that doesn't
just like pop out of nowhere. I mean, I guess
it can. We can't have psychotic breaks, but you know
what I mean, So long episode to do by myself,
a lot of talking, and I could go on about this,
(42:22):
and you know what, maybe one day we'll get Stephanie
Sarkas on the podcast and she can talk to us
about this because she's an expert in this and I'm
a mental health expert, but I don't specialize in gas lighting.
It's something that I do know about, but it'd be
nice to have somebody who specializes in this on here
talk to us, so maybe that will happen in the future.
I don't know lots of planning to do for two,
(42:43):
but with that, I want to say, if there's stuff
that you just love and you want to know more about,
and you have questions about our stuff that you've just
loved hearing about and or things we haven't talked about,
send me an email like, I'm so open to like
what you guys are interested in, because as I plan
for next year's content, I want to make sure that
you guys are continuing to get content that fuels you
(43:05):
and um, that's helpful, So feel free to send that
to Catherine at You Need Therapy podcast dot calm. Again,
you can follow me at cat dot de fata and
the podcast at You Need Therapy podcast on Instagram. I
would love that. And yeah, again little reminder, it's my
birthday week, so if you really want to give me
(43:26):
a birthday gift, that would be awesome in the form
of a rating on the bottom of this if you
scroll down, just give us five stars. If I mean,
I don't want to tell you to give us five stars.
If you really don't think this is a good podcast.
But if you do think it's a good podcast, I
want to know, like, that's really helpful for me. And
I don't get to talk to you guys and see
you guys and know what's going on all the time,
(43:47):
so that's really helpful when I see that you guys
like this, and it meant enough that you took thirty
seconds out of your day and did that, So that
would be awesome birthday gift. And I will be back
on Wednesday for couch Talks. Thank you for being here
with me, and I hope you guys had the Thanksgiving
you need to have and are walking into this holiday
season with the feelings that you need to have. So
(44:08):
I love you guys and talk to you on Wednesday.
Hi, and welcome back to another new episode of You
Need Therapy. My name is Kat and I'm the host here.
It's another solo episode day here, and this week we're
talking about something that I've talked about a little bit before,
but I've never actually dedicated an entire episode about it
on here, and I think it is about time, because
(00:31):
there's enough information around it that it could be not
only its own episode, but a series. It could beat
its own podcast, probably, but we're not gonna do that.
Before we get going, quick reminder that this is not therapy.
This is just me, a therapist talking about, you know,
things that have to do with mental health and things
I have to do with therapy. And also quick reminder
while we're here, if you want to follow me, you
(00:52):
can on Instagram at cat dot de fata, or you
can follow the podcast at You Need Therapy Podcast. And
if you want to really really make me happy and
make my day, and by the way, it's my birthday week.
My birthday is on Saturday, so if you really want
to give me a birthday gift, you can scroll to
the bottom of Apple Podcasts and rate us or rate
(01:14):
me and hopefully give me five stars. And if you
feel called to give a little comment, put a little
comment on there. I love it. I appreciate those. And
if you have questions or constructive feedback, you can send
that to me personally. You can send it to my
email Catherine at You Need Therapy Podcast dot com. And
if you have questions for couch Talks, which is the
Wednesday episode where I answer questions that you guys send in,
(01:35):
send them there. Catherine K A t h R y
N at You Need Therapy Podcast dot com. Okay, now
let's get into the episode. So we're talking about all
things gas lighting today. And again I'm pretty sure we
talked about this a little bit when we covered narcissism
in a full episode that came out last I think
(01:56):
it was December. However, we didn't spend that much time
on it, and I hear this word being said now
more than ever, so I think it's important that we
stop and take some time to figure this out so
we can spot it ourselves and know when this is
actually occurring and when we maybe just might be using
the fancy word right. And we'll get to this later,
(02:18):
but there's a difference in the technique somebody uses when
attempting to create a gas lighting effect on somebody and
the actual experience of being gas lit gas lighted. I'm
not sure if which is correct. So anyway, somebody like
for example, somebody denying something alone doesn't mean that they're
gaslighting you, but it could be part of it. So
we'll get more into that later. But that's one of
(02:39):
the things that I wanted to talk about. And then
also I just have to say I have a personal
I guess I wouldn't call it connection to gaslighting, but
I've experienced at firsthand a while ago in a relationship
that the time was very important to me, and I
have so much love and care for the girl, the
human that went through that experience and didn't know what
was happening. And since then, I found myself in relationships,
(03:01):
whether they're dating or friendships or work related. Why I
found myself in similar situations and had similar feelings, And
because I understand what this is now, I'm better able
to separate myself from it so I don't get caught
in the same I guess trap, and I've been able
to get out and not get caught up in that,
(03:22):
and so that's one of the reasons I think this
is so valuable because I wish I had this information
back then. I don't know what it would have done
or how it would have shifted because I was a
different person back then, but I just know that it
would have been valuable. And so I just want you
guys to know if you have feelings of like, oh
this is me, or like I felt this, or there's
any shame that might come up, like, I want you
to know that I've been there. I've totally been there.
(03:43):
So what is gaslighting? Well, and the most basic definition,
gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse, and it's where
a person tries and successfully usually does, make someone question
their sanity or perception or their reality. And when you
experience gas letting, you're going to feel confused, You'll probably
(04:04):
feel some anxiousness, and you stop being able to trust yourself. However,
when this starts, you don't actually know that you're being
gas lit, so those feelings feel very like accurate and true.
It's not like an anxious I know I'm right and
this person won't agree with you. It's this anxiousness around
like I really started to question myself. And this kind
(04:24):
of manipulation doesn't just get thrown at you. So it
doesn't work that way. It doesn't start all of a sudden,
It slowly kind of creeps up, and very often it
starts with a love bombing experience, especially when this happens
in romantic relationships. And I didn't say this up top,
but gas letting can happen in any kind of relationship.
A lot of times we hear stories about it being
(04:46):
in um romantic relationships and partnerships, but this can be friends,
this can be a boss, this can be um, a parent,
it can be a leader of any sort. There's a
power differential there, but there's usual really a experience of
this love bombing effect first. And we hear about love
bombing and romantic relationships mostly too, but love bombing also
(05:07):
can happen in any of those other experiences, right, And
and I went through in more detail what love bombing
is in the episode that we did on Love Addiction
with Melanie Reese that came out earlier this year. But
we'll talk about a second here, And it's when a
relationship starts with like big bombs of admiration and attention. Again,
doesn't just have to be in romantic relationships. We see
(05:29):
that a lot though, And it can be kind of similar,
which is confusing um with how relationships are portrayed in
Hollywood and movies and stuff, which again it's not very
helpful because we see that all the time and we
see as normal. But it's like that I'm obsessed with
you from day one right. Any time that happens, let
that be an important red flag. Like when the people
(05:51):
are where that person is like all in and all
about you from the day they met you. You're the
greatest person ever. They're the greatest person I've ever met.
You're the best at this that I've ever experience, And
it's like all the sudden, it's it's like an overwhelming
amount of love for someone, and for someone with an
anxious attachment style, this is very much appreciated, which is
super hard. It also, this love bombing is like a
(06:14):
foreshadowing to being gaslight. Right. They win you over with
their affection and you begin to trust them and believe
that you have this incredible fairytale bond and then dune
undone they start to turn the tables, but they have
that backstory for you to hold onto, because how often
do we hear ourselves saying it was so good in
the beginning or they were so kind of the beginning.
I know we can get back there, but was that real?
(06:36):
Was that really them? Or was that the beginning of
them trying to get you to where they wanted you
to be? Scary question, hard question. I don't like that question. Backstory,
I find this interesting. But people are like, what does
gas letting come from? Well, it comes from a play
that then got turned into a movie. I've never seen
this movie. It's called Gaslight. And what happens in the
(06:59):
movie is there's a husband and a wife and the
husband manipulates and is turning down this like actual gaslight,
dimming the lights and telling her that he's not and
she's like, oh, it's getting darker and he's like, no,
it's not. And he's convincing her that she's crazy. Right.
He wants to convince her that she can't trust her
reality so then he can commit her to a mental institution.
(07:19):
So that's where that comes from. That's where we get
the phrase gaslight. Now you will hear this as a
common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, like cult leaders, And
when I hear those things, I think that can sound
very extreme. And then I know me. I'm very defensive
towards myself, so I might say something like that would
(07:41):
never happen to me. I would never be an abusive relationship.
I would never let somebody do this. I would never
because those things seem so big and heavy. But again,
this is a form of emotional psychological manipulation, which can
be harder to identify and recognize and prove invalidate and
because of that, more debilitating at the same time, Right,
(08:03):
we minimize this kind of stuff. And I started watching
the Netflix show the new one um called Made, and
I mean trigger warning. It's it's about a a woman
who has a kid is in this domestic abuse situation,
and it's her story of getting free. I only watched
two episodes because I just was crying and I was like,
this is very sad and this is not what I
(08:25):
need right now. I don't know if I'll finish it,
but this that I do know. The first couple of episodes,
it had such a good and realistic view on how
victims of abuse minimize their abuse. Right, Like, he didn't
hit me, so I'm not abused. Like I don't want
to call myself a victim because that's taking away from
people who really are victims of of abuse, and if
(08:47):
it's not abuse, then what would this be? And it
becomes just like almost moral failing on ourselves of like
we're the bad people, which is part of the psychological abuse.
It's part of the cycle like makes us think that
we're the bad, wrong people when really we're not. We're
victims of abuse, and we can become survivors. If we
don't like that word, we don't have to sit in
it forever. You can become a survivor. But to survive abuse,
(09:11):
a lot of times we have to recognize that we're
in that cycle. So watch that show if you're interested
in what that looks like. But also trigger warning. It can't.
I mean I haven't been in a relationship like that,
but it was triggering to me and my feelings and
my feelings didn't need it that day. Maybe I'll finish later.
(09:31):
I also think that it's important to mention here while
we're on this part, that anyone is susceptible to gas lighting. Anybody.
It doesn't just happen to weak people, are those with
a fragile sense of self or those with insecure attachment styles.
It can happen to anybody. And yes, those things I
just mentioned could be risk factors and could create a
(09:53):
higher likelihood of this happening, But this can happen to anyone.
And also those things aren't bad or wrong things, right, Like,
there's probably a reason there's a fragile sense of self,
there's probably a reason that there's an insecure attachment style.
So that doesn't mean you're bad or wrong either, if
that does fit with you. But I also don't want
people to demonize themselves because again, this is what these
(10:13):
people want us to think, that that we're the ones
and the wrong. I don't want you to demonize yourself
for this happening. You don't ask for this. There's nothing
that you do that says, oh, do please manipulate me,
please psychologically abuse me. This is there's no your fault
in this. And I think when we start to say, oh,
it was because I had a weak sense of self
or it's because I am just not confident, it's like,
(10:35):
you can't blame yourself for being abused. That's not fair
and it's not helpful and it's not true. So shall
we talk about what it might look like? Um, so
you can spot it. And this is tricky because, like
I said, you often don't know what's happening at first,
especially if you don't know what gaslighting is. So that's
one of the reasons why we're doing this. And this
is an attempt to control someone else by twisting their
(10:58):
sense of reality. So when this is happening, what is
happening is somebody is twisting your sense of reality. You
start grounded, you start knowing what's true and what's not true.
You start knowing the sky is blue, and then somebody
slowly does things that allows them to twist your sense
of reality where you might think, oh, the sky is blue.
I know it's blue. It's blue, that's a fact. And
(11:20):
then later down the line you are still seeing the
sky being blue, but you're saying, I bet this guy
has red and I'm seeing blue because I don't see
real reality. I can't trust myself. I have to listen
to what this person in power is telling me. Very confusing.
So back to in the beginning of this conversation when
I said that there's a difference in the techniques and
(11:41):
that the gas lighting effect right, So we'll get to this.
But denial is a technique or tactic that's used in
this process. But denial in itself is not gas lighting.
So if somebody denies something that doesn't just automatically like
you're gas lighting me, maybe that could be part of it.
But I think sometimes people just deny things because of
(12:04):
other reasons and they're not gas lighting you. It might
be a self protection there can be a lot of
stuff in that. They might just be lying to get
out of trouble. Doesn't mean they're gas lighting. So I
just want to separate that denial in its own right
is not gas lighting. It might be something that somebody
uses to get to that point. So, like I said,
there's techniques that are used to do this, So let's
(12:25):
break them down. I got a UM list of we're
gonna go through two different things, but I got this
first list of techniques, the actual just like words. I
took them from the National Domestic Violence Hotline, so you
can visit that UM website, the hotline dot org UM.
So I took the five techniques from there. They really
(12:45):
fit and I think they're helpful, and and then I'm
going to talk about each one. But I didn't make
those up, and I just wanted to make that clear.
So let's talk about these five techniques. So one way
or one thing that somebody might do UM in order
to create this this narrative is withholding, so means that
they refuse to listen to information or pretend like they
(13:07):
don't understand the information, or just like separate themselves from
the ability to have the conversation. So you might hear
things like you're not making any sense or I don't
have time for this. When you bring something up that
you think is important, or when you try to talk
about a conflict or just anything in that relationship, UM,
they might say things like I'm not going to go
through this again, even if you never went through it
(13:28):
once or we already talked about this, and maybe you
did talk about it, maybe you didn't, or maybe you
talked about it and they shut you down. But very
much they will just like not allow that conversation to
come to fruition. That's one. Then we have countering. So
this is when somebody's kind of like questioning the person,
as in, if it's you that's being manipulated, they're questioning
(13:50):
your memory or your essential reality of the event. So
this one actually bothers me a lot, like I think
it might be one of the most frustrating for me
because they take something that actually can be used for
super helpful communication and turn it against you. Like when
we're having conversations and we're having conflict and somebody might
hear something that somebody didn't say, right. So if somebody says,
(14:12):
like I don't have time to go to this event
with you tomorrow, I might hear them say they don't
they don't want to go, but they never said that, right,
They said they didn't have time. And so when you
have a healthy communication, you can talk about that and
you can say like, I heard you say that you
didn't want to go. The person can reply back, oh,
I actually didn't say that. I totally get that that's
(14:32):
what you heard. Um, I actually I didn't have time
and I actually would want to go, but I don't
have time. And so you can have a healthy conversation
around like oh miscommunication. But in this experience, they'll say
things like that's what you heard in your head. It's
not what I said, even though it is what they said.
And that can be so confusing because sometimes we do
hear things wrong. Um, so you can you can say
(14:54):
to yourself, well, maybe I did hear that wrong and
so they'll say it like, oh, come on, I never
said at or like that's what you heard, but you
know I would never say something like that, or you're
just being overly sensitive things like that. Then the third
technique is blocking or diverting. So this is like kind
of changing the subject and you start to question your
thinking and not just like changing the subject to like
(15:17):
the fight we had to, like where are we going
to go to dinner? They'll say things to like downplay
your experience, like you're overreacting. So the subject moves from
this thing that happened, this conflict you had, to your
reaction to the conflict and you being an overreact or
or too sensitive or something like that. And so they'll
say things like why would you let something so stupid
(15:38):
come between us? This seems silly, Like you're being silly.
You always blew things out of proportion, You are always
picking fights, you always have to be right, you always
play the victim, and so then now you're arguing about
that rather than talking about what you actually were trying
to talk about. So confusing, okay, And then number four
is trivializing, and so this is just making the person
(16:00):
feelings seem like really unimportant like again, and some of
these fall into similar categories like I don't know why
you're making such a big deal of this. You're being insecure,
you're too sensitive, and that can just make somebody be like, oh,
maybe I am overreacting, Like well, maybe if I just
stop overreacting, then we won't have this conflict and then
everything will be better, Like I don't want to have conflict,
(16:20):
So if it's me and I'm just overreacting, then maybe
I'll stop overreacting and then we won't have conflict. So
then you're looking to the person or the person in
power to kind of be your meter of like does
this experience warrant this kind of reaction? I don't know,
because I overreact, and so things that I think are
a big deal aren't a big deal, and I just
need to get over them because it's me. It's all
(16:42):
about me. It's me. It's me, it's me. I'm the problem.
And then the last one is forgetting or like just
straight up denial, which oh my gosh, it could be
so frustrating. And this is when the person just straights
up straight up denies something or they forget they act
like they forget what happened, or they just like deny
that they ever agreed to something or that they ever
(17:03):
said something. They just straight up our lying, which is like, again,
these people just are lying, which you cannot argue with
somebody who's lying. And they'll say things like I never
said that, I never did that, or they'll say you
never said that, or you never told me that, or
you never did that, and all of this. Actually I know,
I said in the beginning of this episode that I
(17:23):
had been in experience like this years ago, and this
was with a romantic partner, and I was like in it,
so like I had no idea what was going on.
And again I thought I was crazy. I thought it
was very selfish. I thought I was a bad person.
And what would happen a lot of times when we
would argue is I would go silent because I didn't
know how to respond, because if I agreed, it felt
(17:45):
like I was abandoning part of myself, and if I argued,
then it wouldn't be helpful. And so many times I
would hear myself say things like I don't understand how
we got here, how are we talking about this? What
are we even talking about? And then they would say
things to make me feel like stupid for being confused,
(18:06):
and so then I would just go silent. And then
when I went silent, then I became the bad person
because then I'm giving this silent treatment and all of this,
and then I'm playing the victim. And it's like, well,
I do feel like a victim right now, but then
I can't be the victim, and so horrible cycle. Good
news as I got out of it. But this actually,
as I'm telling this story, is reminding me of of
an experience I had recently with somebody. And I share
(18:28):
this because I mean it when I say this can
happen to anybody, like you can be in a relationship,
any kind of relationship. Again, it's not just romantic. Anybody
can get into a relationship with a person that uses
this type of manipulation. It's important to understand how to
spot it and how to get out, because if you
don't spot it, you'll find yourself in a cycle, and
(18:49):
then you'll start to feel either really frustrated or crazy
or does you'll be spinning your wheels. And if I
hadn't had this experience in my past and I knew
what it felt like, and I had this information I
probably would have questioned myself in this most recent experience,
and instead I just became very, very, very frustrated because
what I wanted is to have a conversation that made
sense with this person, and this person wouldn't allow that.
(19:12):
And I wanted so badly to see the good in
this person, and I wanted so badly to believe that
we could create a healthy relationship, a healthy friendship, a
healthy partnership. I wanted to believe that that could happen,
because in the beginning of our relationship, everything was very good, kind,
open um, we valued each other very much. I thought,
(19:35):
not that that's not true, but this was just very frustrating,
and I just became very frustrating cause I was like, no,
I just didn't want to believe that this is what
was happening. And I think that's something that can get
us stuck to It's like, we don't want to believe
that these people are doing that. We want to see
the good. We want to see how this relationship can
be something helpful or strong or any of that. And
(19:58):
it's hard to just walk away from when there is
something that's built underneath of it. And so very very
long story short. I wish I could tell honestly, I
wish I could tell you the whole story, but it's
not appropriate for the podcast and we don't have time.
It would be a whole series. But when my friends
asked me when we had our like we're no longer friends,
and when I finally decided to walk away permanently from
(20:22):
this relationship and friendship, my friends asked me to tell
the story and to tell this experience in this conversation,
to tell them about it, and I just said to them,
I gave them the bits and pieces that I could,
But then I said, I like, I actually can't tell
you about this conversation because it's so confusing and it
doesn't make sense, and my brain doesn't have the ability
(20:43):
to recall it because the things that were said just
don't make sense, like chronologically, like I would say something
and then this person would say something that did not
have anything to do with what I just said, or
would like counter what I just said in a very
strange way. And so a lot of times when you
have conversations, the conversation flows right and so it's easy
(21:05):
to recall. This conversation was all over the place, which
he was very good at using his tactics that like,
I couldn't even tell the story, and I think that's
part of what happens, right, So when our friends are like,
what's happened, we can't even tell them, and so then
we feel like there's something wrong with us. I am
questioning my reality. I am questioning my memory because I
(21:27):
can't even tell you what happens, so you can't even
back me up. But really, to me, I think that
was a part of my brain saying, hey, Kat, this
doesn't make sense. We don't know where to put this,
so we're not going to store it. He would say
things that like five minutes ago we agreed on. Literally,
he told me I was playing the victim as I
was taking responsibility for something that in all honesty, I
(21:47):
didn't want to take responsibility for, but I just kind
of want to like move on and it wasn't that
big of a deal to me. But as I was
doing that, it's like, you always play the victim, and
I'm like, name two times where I did that. So
they use these like all or nothing, very extreme words, right,
So there's a sign right there. And he told me
to let him speak, and that I never let anyone
else talk, so again, very extreme. I never but then
(22:09):
when I spoke, he would interrupt me over and over
and over again, where I literally could not even get
a sentence in. So again that my old behaviors came
in where I'm like, I'm just going to be quiet
and listen, and he made these accusations towards me that
I very much knew or not true. Um. He said
things like I'm the most judgmental person he's ever met.
And that's a gross overstatement, right, the most judgmental person
(22:29):
he's ever met. Like, sure, I'm not perfect, so at
times I might be judgmental, but I know I'm not
the most judgmental person that somebody's ever met. And the
thing is, you can't argue with these people because the
more you try to prove your point, the more heavier
their accusations get. Right, and if you try to disagree,
they'll make you feel stupid or they'll try to make
you feel crazy. And there's no compromise with these kinds
(22:50):
of people either. They're not trying to compromise, they're trying
to manipulate you. And to tell tale sign you're in
this dance is when you feel crazy which is confusing
because they want to make you feel crazy, because then
I feel crazy, then they have power over you. But
when you start to feel crazy and you haven't always
felt like you're crazy, that's your sign of like my
(23:11):
head spinning, I cannot connect these dots. I feel crazy.
Maybe I'm being manipulated. So the second you start to
feel crazy, that is your second red flag after the
love bombing one. So a question you'll hear a lot,
(23:31):
and something you might wonder yourself, why don't people like
stand up for themselves and why or why don't they
leave and all that? And because most people don't want
to leave and they don't want to threaten the relationship. Right,
So even in this last example that I'm giving you,
I didn't want to leave. I I did want to
find a way to to make this work, and so
part of me wanted to deny what was happening until
(23:53):
I just couldn't. And when you actually do stand up
to this kind of thing, either their manipulation gets worse
or the relationship gets threatened. And if I don't want
to leave, that means I don't want the relationship to end,
which means I also don't want it to be threatened,
So I'm just not going to do that. Therefore, you
don't press on certain issues. And I talked about this
(24:14):
all the time. I'm guilty of wanting to believe the
goodness of everyone. And if you have a love bombing experience, right,
you want to believe in the goodness that this partner
or boss or human has because you've gone through that
phase where you saw it and you also saw how
good and you heard how good and special the relationship
(24:34):
and quotes was or is. So we go back to
this like rosy retrospect, like but it was so good
and we were so good and he was so kind
and he was so understanding back then. Okay, but where
are we now? And the more you push right on this,
the heavier the person who's gas letting may go in
and they can be ruthless, right, So there's no rationalizing
with them. So if we can get into our heads
(24:56):
right that the agenda they're pushing of the reality that
they're trying to make you believe or understand or adhere
to is not true. Right. But if you try to
stand up to this, they have this fake agenda, this
fake reality they're they're pushing. If you try to put
push against this. What will happen is they'll escalate. But
as they escalate, their manipulation will create you as the problem. Now, right,
(25:19):
So you're being dramatic, you're being crazy. Um, you you you,
you're making a big deal about this. Why don't you
just believe me? Why don't you just understand? Why do
you have to be so difficult? Why do you have
to question everything? And then it's like, whoa, Now I'm
deeper in this. Now what what did I do? How
did I create such a big deal out of this? Wow?
(25:40):
I'm just getting worked up talking about this. Okay. Also,
I don't know if this fits right here, but I
have to say because I don't know if I don't
remember if I said it. But I often think that
people just think gaslighting is when somebody denies something. So
what we already talked about how that's just a tactic.
But a lot of times we think gas lights when
somebody's denying truth, and that's just it. But it also
(26:00):
can be when they deny something that you did, or
they deny your memory. Um, and it's not just their
denying their behavior. There they might say things like you
never said that when you already did, or denying just
a memory of something of you, and it's not just
um them. So I think that's important too, UM, because
that can be really confusing when they're like you never
(26:20):
said sorry or you never told me that you wanted
me to be home at this time, and it's like, yes,
I did, I did say that. I swear I said that.
And we'll move into how we can kind of combat
that later, but I want to just make that point too.
And again, this happens over time. This isn't just like
a snap my fingers has happened. This happens over time.
And there is a great article that I want to share. Um.
(26:43):
This is not my information. I'm taking this from somebody else,
but there's a great article I want to share that
helps makes sense of why this can be so hard
to snap out of because it talks about the progression.
There's a woman named Stephanie Sarkis, and she wrote a
book called Gaslighting, Recognize mennipulative and emotionally abuse of People,
and Break Free. And she had an article on psychology
(27:06):
today that went viral, UM, and I think it went
viral because so many people are finally waking up to
the stuff and talking about this stuff and it's interesting.
And in this article she summarizes eleven ways how gaslighters
typically use the following techniques, which she details in her
book that I just mentioned, which I will link her book.
I haven't read this book, but I love the article.
(27:27):
So in this article, again she summarizes these eleven ways
how gaslighters typically use the techniques I'm going to mention,
and how this progression happened. So how you get from like, oh,
I'm a normal person that knows my reality to what
in the world I'm questioning everything? So here we're gonna
go through eleven Number one. I'll also link this article
(27:47):
as well, so if you want to just go back
and read it, because I'm just gonna read what she says.
So Number one, they tell blatant lies. You know it's
an outright lie. Yet they are telling you this lie
with a straight face. Why are they so blatant Because
they're setting up a precedent. Once they tell you a
huge lie, you're not sure if anything they say is true.
Keeping you unsteady and off kilter is the goal. Here.
(28:09):
Number two, they deny they ever said something, even though
you have proof. You know they said they would do something.
You know you heard it, but they out and out
deny it. It makes you start to question your reality.
Maybe they never said that thing. And the more they
do this, the more you question your reality and you
start accepting their's. It's like Chinese water torture. Right. The
(28:31):
longer this is me talking, not the the article, but
it's like the longer you do something, the more starts
to set in. And just like our belief systems about
like our core beliefs, the longer we believe we're not
good enough, the longer we tell that story, the more
we live in that screen, the more that becomes who
who we are and what we think and what our
reality is. Number three, they use what is near and
(28:51):
dear to you as ammunition. They know how important your
kids are to you, They know how important your identity
is to you, so those may become the first things
they attack. If you have kids, they tell you that
you should not have had those children. They will tell
you that you'd be a worthy person if only you
didn't have a long list of negative traits. They attack
the foundation of your being. So this is cat agan.
(29:12):
They go in on you. Number four, They wear you
down over time. This is one of the insidious things
about gas sighting. It's done gradually over time. A lie here,
a lie there, a snide comment every so often, and
then it starts ramping up. Even the brightest, most self
aware people can be sucked into gas fighting. It is
that effective. It's the frog and the frying pan analogy.
(29:34):
The heat is turned up slowly so the frog never
realizes what is happening to it, and then the frog dies.
This number five. Their actions do not match their words
when dealing with the person or entity that gaslights. Look
at what they are doing rather than what they're saying.
What they are saying means nothing. It is just talk.
What they're doing is the issue. I have to step
in here as cat again because this is one of
(29:54):
the things that's so tough, because you'll have these conversations
and they'll say like I'm sorry, be better, or they'll
have these moments of like goodness and trueness and care. However,
then their actions don't line up with that. But we
go back to well, they said this, they said this,
they said this right, But to trust and believe and
(30:14):
and and sit with somebody's trueness, their their speech and
their actions have to act together. We can't just pick one. Okay.
So number six they throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
This person or entity that is cutting you down, telling
you that you don't have value, is now praising you
for something you did. You think, Well, maybe they aren't
so bad. Yes they are. This is a calculated attempt
(30:36):
to keep you off kilter and again to question your reality. Also,
look at what you were praised for. It's probably something
that served the gas lighter. Again, so I love the
part where she's saying this is a calculated attempt to
keep you off kilter and question in reality is because
it's nothing is all the time, right, So you have
that evidence that's like they're not all bad? Yes, And
(30:57):
this is where we ask ourselves that percentage question. How
much of the percentage of this relationship do I feel crazy?
And how much do I feel like they are kind? Okay?
Number seven They know confusion weakens people. Gas Lighters know
that people have a sense of stability and normalcy. Their
goal is to uproot this and make you constantly question
everything and humans natural tendency is to look to the
(31:18):
person or entity that will help you feel more stable
and that happens to be the gas lighter. Really scary.
Number eight. They project they are a drug user or
a cheater, yet they're constantly accusing you of that. This
has done so often that you start to defend yourself
and then you're distracted from their behavior. Oh my gosh.
(31:39):
When you start defending yourself from things that you've this
is cadian. When you start defending yourself from things that like,
actually are so off, that is such a telltale sign, right, Like,
I'm defending myself, But have you ever had to defend
yourself from this before? In my experience, I was told
that I was selfish so often, and I really believe
that to the point where I apologize to my friends often,
(32:00):
like I'm so sorry for being so selfish and so
sorry for this and that. And the reality is we
all have a bit of selfishness and this if we're healthy,
and that's okay. But my friends were like, what are
you talking about? And so I was like, well, why
has nobody else told me this? And I thought my
friends were lyned, but really it was that I was
defending something that actually was not part of me. Number nine.
(32:22):
They tried to align people against you gas lighters are
masters at manipulating and finding the people they know will
stand by them no matter what, and they use these
people against you. They will make comments such as this
person knows that you're not right, or this person's knows
you're useless. To keep in mind, it does not mean
that these people actually said these things. A gas lighter
(32:43):
is a constant liar. When the gas lighter uses this tactic,
it makes you feel like you don't know who to
trust or who to turn to, and that lead you
right back to them, and that's exactly what they want.
Isolation gives them more control. I'll get to this, which
is why we need to reality check. And when we
feel like we're in these situations, a lot of times
we don't want to tell anybody about it because it's like, oh,
(33:03):
I don't want to tell me by dirty laundry or
this is just between us. But that's what they want.
They wanted to be between you, so then you don't
have anybody giving you a reality check. Number ten, they
tell you or others that you're crazy. This is one
of the most effective tools of the gas lighter because
it's dismissive. The gas lighter knows if they question your sanity.
People will not believe you when you tell them the
(33:25):
gas lighter is abusive or out of control. It's a
master technique. So what's the point If nobody's gonna believe me,
what's the point? And then eleven they tell you everyone
else is a liar. By telling you that everyone else,
your family, the media, X, Y Z is a liar,
it again makes you question your reality. You've never known
someone with the audacity to do this, so they must
(33:46):
be telling the truth right now. It's a manipulation technique.
It makes people turn to the gas lighter for the
correct information, which actually isn't correct at all. Oh man.
And I think one of the things that's highlighting these
steps is the idea this is kept talking about the article,
is the idea that, like, they want you in this isolation,
so you don't have any other information and you're going
(34:08):
to them to get it, and so what they say
and what they do is gold. My goodness, So I
have so many feelings right now, And if you have
so many feelings right now, I'm in it with you.
This is so frustrating, and this is the kind of
thing that I talk about this and I'm like, why
are these kind of people in the world, and why
is this something that we have to deal with and
(34:28):
and move through? And I don't have an answer for that.
I don't have an answer for why we have to
move through a lot of the tough things in life.
But I do have some helpful tips to help you
kind of get out of it not have to stay
in this. So let's kind of just talk about those
as we summarize and close out this conversation. And also
I will link that article in the show notes for
(34:49):
you guys, and I'll link the episode on love addiction,
and I'll link the episode that I did on narcissism
as well, So if you want some more information on
some of this stuff, you can go get that there
and link her book. Even though I want you guys
to know I haven't read it, so I can't vouch
for it. But here's some suggestions of what to do
um when you find yourself in a relationship like this,
(35:10):
whether it be parent, friend, spouse, romantic partner, boss, anything. No.
Right now that you are not weak, bad, or wrong
if you have experienced this, and this is so important,
abuse of any kind, does this thing that makes us
feel bad about ourselves for being found inside of it,
but nobody asks to be abused. It is not a
(35:31):
moral failing on you. And I need you guys to
know that you're not weak, bad, or wrong if you're
in this situation. It's not something to be ashamed about.
And the more we believe that, the more we'll get
stuck inside of it too. I want you guys to
pay attention to red flags. And this is something that's
so frustrating at the same time. I get it, but
there's so much like laughter and joking, nous and just
(35:53):
like what's the word like self deprecation around ignoring red
flags these days. And I get some of it and
some of it the humor. We need to not make
everything so heavy, but we've got to start paying attention
to red flags, especially when they're like this, because it
can really get you into some trouble. And again that's
not your fault, but when we are ignoring red flags,
(36:13):
we do have to take some responsibility for that. That part.
Perk up the first time you experience one of these techniques.
Perk up the first time you are experiencing love bombing,
just because you're having this like intense reaction in a relationship.
Early It doesn't mean it's going to end up in this,
but I at least want you to pay attention to it,
so you know, if one of these other things follows,
Hey I need to talk about this. Hey I need
(36:34):
to be mindful of this right down. When you experience
these things the first time, it's helpful to have written
accounts of these so when your memory as questions later,
when this gets heavier, you can go back and say, nope,
I'm not crazy. I didn't make this up. I wrote
this down. And also sometimes when we have that written down,
we can go, WHOA, this wasn't just a little small thing.
Look at all these accounts and one of um, I
(36:57):
actually found this later and this wasn't really what I
was doing. But I write a lot of letters to myself,
and I'll write text messages to myself instead of sending
them to people. And after this long ago relationship ended,
I found a letter that I had written and I
was like in this spot where I was like so
still kind of sad about the relationship, and I found
this letter and as I read it, I was like,
oh my goodness, I'm so glad I read wrote this
(37:20):
because now I'm reading this and realizing that this rosy
retrospect that I'm having was so off. So it's helpful
to write that stuff down. Number three, do not try
and argue. Be willing to leave these conversations with these
people without making your point or without feeling validated or understood.
There they very likely will not validate you. It can
be super disorienting to be in conversations with people who
(37:42):
are um using techniques to gaslight you, because what they're
doing is trying to knock you off your stability, knock
you off of your reality, and they'll change the path
of the discussion. Like I said, so if you're trying
to be understood and have a conversation about A, you
might be having a conversation about B later and then
all of a sudden you're blowing things out of proportion
(38:02):
or whatever one of the things that I said earlier,
when you're just trying to share your feelings and be validated.
So do not try to argue. Do not try to
beat a dead horse to get your feelings validated. Just
know that that might ever happen, and be willing to
leave without that. For don't try to rationalize, don't try
to outsmart this person. Do not try to manipulate the
(38:22):
person who's manipulating you, because again they're usually lying. And
if I'm going off of life, I can continue that
narrative as far as I need to go encounter anything
you say. And the more you try to outsmart the person,
the more you will get confused, because then you're not
actually sitting in your reality, right, You're trying to like
be a step ahead, but they're not in reality either,
so you're essentially letting go of your truth in order
(38:42):
to jump into this mind game. So being disengaged, like
disengaging from this stuff and being unbothered by them doing
these things, that's your best course of action to again,
be willing to walk away. Do not try to outsmart
this person. Master manipulators, right, and most healthy people are
not master manipulators. We don't have it in us because
(39:05):
when you're sitting and rooted in truth, a manipulation cannot
sit there as well. And then repeat this one needed.
This is my my fifth little tip. My feelings are valid.
No one else can tell me how to feel. Again,
my feelings are valid. No one else can tell me
how I feel. You can even add in there, my
reality is valid because listen, We're all walking around with
(39:26):
different realities, right, because we see things through different screens.
So just because your reality doesn't match up exactly as
somebody else's doesn't mean it's even false to begin with. Right,
So my feelings are valid, my reality is valid. No
one else can tell me how to feel. And then
the sixth thing I just want to drive this home
is like fine support, Find find support, reality check with
(39:49):
people you trust. So instead of hiding, right, instead of
hiding when somebody when you start to notice somebody's trying
to keep you small, keep you in this one on
one relationship where only going to reality check with one person,
I can only trust one person. That one person makes
me feel like I'm wrong all the time. Red red
red red red red, red, red, red, very very bright
red like neon flag. Always know that you should be
(40:12):
able to reality check with more than one person. So
find support, go to those people, ask them questions, talk
to them. And when you feel crazy, right, So when
I was like, I can't even tell the story because
it's so wild, know that, like, if you feel crazy,
it doesn't mean you are crazy. I think that's so important.
When you feel crazy, it doesn't mean you are crazy,
(40:33):
that just might be where somebody wants you to sit.
And when I feel crazy, sometimes it's because I'm being manipulated.
I'm actually not crazy. It makes me think of and
I think I'm gonna close it out with this of
the book Girl interrupted. It was also a movie um
with Angelina Jolie and Britney Murphy. It's super good, super dark.
I wouldn't recommend watching it alone at night. But in
(40:56):
the book. I read the book for a project in
grad school, and I think was like in the last chapter,
like the very end of it. Long story short, this
girl has spent a significant amount of time in a
mental health institution. Back then. I think they were even
called like a sane asylums things like that, which we
don't call them those. But she talked about how after
(41:18):
she left there she always had this essence of questioning
her reality. Because after somebody tells you enough times you're
crazy or crazy or crazy or crazy, essentially you're going
to believe them, right. And so the longer we stay
in these relationships where people are telling us this, the
more we're going to start to believe them. And and
she said, even after she got out, and there's a
part of her that knows she's not crazy, she would
(41:39):
question herself and she would be walking in the grocery
store and and and wonder, am I seeing these black
and white checkers on the tiles or is this my imagination?
And that just speaks to the power of what we
allow ourselves to hear and what we allow ourselves to
stay in. And so find people who you feel super
safe with and who make you feel stable, and who
make you feel like confidence around yourself, with people who
(42:02):
allow you to know that you're not crazy. Right when
we're around people that make us feel like we are crazy,
and that's never happened before Red Flak because that doesn't
just like pop out of nowhere. I mean, I guess
it can. We can't have psychotic breaks, but you know
what I mean, So long episode to do by myself,
a lot of talking, and I could go on about this,
(42:22):
and you know what, maybe one day we'll get Stephanie
Sarkas on the podcast and she can talk to us
about this because she's an expert in this and I'm
a mental health expert, but I don't specialize in gas lighting.
It's something that I do know about, but it'd be
nice to have somebody who specializes in this on here
talk to us, so maybe that will happen in the future.
I don't know lots of planning to do for two,
(42:43):
but with that, I want to say, if there's stuff
that you just love and you want to know more about,
and you have questions about our stuff that you've just
loved hearing about and or things we haven't talked about,
send me an email like, I'm so open to like
what you guys are interested in, because as I plan
for next year's content, I want to make sure that
you guys are continuing to get content that fuels you
(43:05):
and um, that's helpful, So feel free to send that
to Catherine at You Need Therapy podcast dot calm. Again,
you can follow me at cat dot de fata and
the podcast at You Need Therapy podcast on Instagram. I
would love that. And yeah, again little reminder, it's my
birthday week, so if you really want to give me
(43:26):
a birthday gift, that would be awesome in the form
of a rating on the bottom of this if you
scroll down, just give us five stars. If I mean,
I don't want to tell you to give us five stars.
If you really don't think this is a good podcast.
But if you do think it's a good podcast, I
want to know, like, that's really helpful for me. And
I don't get to talk to you guys and see
you guys and know what's going on all the time,
(43:47):
so that's really helpful when I see that you guys
like this, and it meant enough that you took thirty
seconds out of your day and did that, So that
would be awesome birthday gift. And I will be back
on Wednesday for couch Talks. Thank you for being here
with me, and I hope you guys had the Thanksgiving
you need to have and are walking into this holiday
season with the feelings that you need to have. So
(44:08):
I love you guys and talk to you on Wednesday.
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