Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum dive into the mysterious disappearance of 15-year-old Sebastian Rogers. They discuss the unsettling lack of progress in the investigation, the intriguing and often controversial use of polygraph tests, and the perplexing actions of Sebastian's family members following his disappearance.
Topics discussed today:
-The latest on the disappearance of 15 year old Sebastian Rogers
-Two missing women in Oklahoma - evidence indicates foul play
Show Notes:
- [0:00] Sebastian Rogers latest
- [1:45] Declined polygraph by stepdad
- [4:40] Public scrutiny focus vs. missing child
- [19:20] Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly go missing in Oklahoma
- [20:00] Investigators suspect foul play
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NancyGraceOfficial
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, a Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook, “Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.”
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
X: @149Zone7
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Sebastian Rogers is still missing. The fifteen year old autistic
young man has been missing.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Since February twenty six.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
My girl, Nancy Grace offered the stepdad a polygraph. Stepdad says,
name the place in time Nancy Grace did.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
He's a no show yees, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I was putting up that money out of my own
pocket to get a very well respected polygrapher to do
the polygraph and to go to the Memphis area to
make it happen. All along Proudfoot had said he would
do it. Then when I got right down to it,
(00:54):
the whole thing blew up and he blames the TBI. Now,
as a long time prosecutor, I would not agree. I
would not stipulate, as you know we have to do
for a polygraph to come in in a criminal case
both side. In some jurisdictions, both sides have to stipulate,
(01:14):
agree to allow the polygraph in before the poly is taken,
all right, and then you're stuck with the results, whether
you like him or not. But I would never do
that because I didn't know what the outcome was going
to be and I wanted to make sure my evidence
was strong. Long story short, I still like to look
(01:38):
at polygraphs. If somebody passes a polygraph that gives them
the indisha of reliability, a veracity of truthfulness, just because
I don't bring it into court, it would still be
a tool for me to say, hey, this guy's telling
the truth. Maybe he's telling the truth about other things.
It's a very important tool. So why wouldn't take the polly?
(02:03):
He blames the TBI. My point is, why wouldn't the
TBI want an additional polly.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
They're a fantastic investigative tool. And again, he can also
take one privately.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
He can go do it.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
He can set it up through his own attorney if
that's something he wanted to do to help clear his name.
You and I have talked so often about Mark Klass.
Let's eliminate me, so y'all can go find my child.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
This is an opportunity for them to get past that
and on to what really happened to their boy.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
But let's talk about it.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Nancy, you have told the story about when John David
went missing in the store for seven seconds and you
lost your complete mind. You made them shut the store down,
and he was just playing hide and seek. They have
left town.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
I don't like it now in their defense, and don't
think defending anybody or prosecuting anybody. Here's how you win
a case. You anticipate, you think on what they are
going to do, then you destroy it. I've been thinking
of what they're saying. They said they left town because
(03:20):
he Proudfoot had to go to work. She went with him,
and they told me that they're getting a lot of
hate and people know where they live. Did they leave
because they're being harassed? Is she really afraid? That's what
they said to me. Now, that would be their defense
(03:43):
in leaving, So I have to take that into account.
I don't know that I believe it or don't believe it.
I really do, contrary with many people believe keep an
open mind. What if they are telling the truth.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I just want to throw some things around hit me.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
If one of my children were missing, I could care
less about my own safety.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I'll tell you right now.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Second, the bio mom and stepdad are now no longer
talking to the bio dad.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
That's not a good look either.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
She is saying things like, well, we're getting threads, and
you know, people are driving by our house at all hours,
and our neighbors are upset. I'm going to tell you
again my child is missing. I could care less what
my neighbors think. I'm going to be a crazy person.
They are not searching for him. She keeps saying things like, quote,
(04:40):
when we find him, when we who?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
You're not looking for your child.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Cheryl, I agree with you. If it were my child,
no way would I leave in case, in case he
somehow got back home, and I would be manning search
center and putting out flyers and laying on the police
station front steps, begging and screaming and going on TV
(05:09):
and begging, taking a Polly, take my DNA. Do whatever
you want. However, Cheryl McCollum, I'm also looking at it
as a trial lawyer. That's what i'd be doing. But
I'm looking at what they're saying, and I'm analyzing it
for its veracity. Are they acting like I would act? No,
(05:34):
they're not not at all, certainly not the way you
would act. And John David was gone more longer than
seven seconds. I'd put it up around five minutes, because
I know I had Lucy under my arm like a
football and I was running. I looked like a crazy person.
My hair was crazy. No makeup. I think I'd actually
(05:57):
been in the community pool with them morning. It just
it was insane, and those moments of thinking John David
had been taken was awful. Literally screaming, locked the doors,
I wouldn't let go of Lucy. It was just beyond
even tears. It was just cold fear of where is
(06:22):
my son? That's how I acted. I don't understand them, Cheryl,
I don't understand them. I think that a jury would
agree with you. However, I'm trying to figure out why,
why are they acting this way. I've been in a
lot of RV camps, you know, we like to RV
(06:42):
in camp, and I find it hard to believe when
your child's missing, your hold up in an RV camp
or anywhere not at the search location.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
You know, here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
If you and I were sitting at our original Zone
seven and we had this case and I said to
you as a prosecutor, hey, Nancy, the mom said that
Sebastian took the trash out to the end of the driveway,
that was his chore. Then she says a flashlights missing.
(07:15):
Then there's a video that depicts maybe flashlights. But now
they're saying no it's a trash truck, and now law
enforcement is checking a landfilled I don't like that because
that looks like to me, your child is mission.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Do you notice a flashlight ain't there?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That sounds like somebody said to her, hey, look at
this video or those flashlights? Oh yeah, flashlights missing. And
then they asked the stepdad about it. And this is
a direct quote. I want you to tell me what
you think of this. As a prosecutor, everything that everybody
is trying to assume is a flashlight. I hate to
say this, but it's not as much.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
As we would love it to be. It's not love
it to be a flashlight.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
So you're telling me you would either love that to
be Sebastian out there at three eleven in the morning
with a flashlight and there's two flashlights, which means somebody
is with him, which means that seems coordinated. But there's
no evidence on his phone or computer or anything else
that he's met up with somebody, and he ain't got
no shoes on. You would love it to be a flashlight?
(08:23):
Like that is baffling to me.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
All of these things.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Well, it's my understanding that law enforcement has told various
sources that those were not flashlights, So that whole theory
is a waste of my time. If they're saying it's
not a flashlight, it's not a flashlight, they have a
reason for saying that. They have probably digitally enhanced the
(08:47):
video and of determined it was not a flashlight. You
ever been sitting in your house and you see carl
lights turned somewhere. You can't quite make it out, you
don't know where it is. That's what I think it was.
At first, I was hoping that there was evidence that
he had snuck away from the house on his own,
(09:08):
but that's not what happened. Regarding those flashlights, they're not
flashlights if what we're being told is true, So that
debunks the whole theory. What really is bothering me the most, sheeryl,
because the lights could have been anything. It could have
been a neighbor pulling in or out, could have been
(09:29):
any number of things. What's disturbing me is the dogs.
The dogs you've known from the beginning. That's my problem
because she Katie Proudfoot said the dogs hit outside the house,
and no matter who I ask, I get different answers.
Because if the dogs did not hit outside the house.
(09:52):
Then he did not leave the house much less barefoot.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And you're talking about a child that's had no medicine
in six weeks, no food that we know of, no
way to get any food, no way to get any help.
Nobody has seen anything of him, not one legitimate sighting
of this child.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Now, let me ask you one other thing. You and
I are big on loyalty.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
We are married to two people that we trust without question.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I heard on.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
More than one video the.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Bio Dad talking about Sebastian was going to come and
live with him, and he had been talking to Chris
Proudfoot about getting Sebastian to come live with him, like
work on Katie about it. I cannot fathom an ex
husband and my current husband working together to get my
(10:47):
child away from me.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Oh hell no. I mean, you know, I love David,
but I've made it very clear. You know they're my
number one Amen. That's just and a lot of people say, hey,
that's wrong. They're my responsibility, it is my duty, and
I'll want to take care of them. They're my number
(11:11):
one priority on this earth anyway. And it would be
a cold day in hubl that David Lynch would try
to fanangle around to get the children away from me. Oh,
they'd be hell to pay. I can tell you that
much right now. But that said, I wouldn't like any
I mean, think about your best friend if you found
(11:33):
out your best friend was conniding against you, much less
your husband. It's important in that it gives me an
insight into the dynamic. And another thing, Cheryl, I don't
shoot from the hip. All of this evidence, all of
these thoughts, all of these observations we're discussing, is in
(11:53):
my stack of evidence. But I have to analyze it
and figure out what does it mean in the sense
of how could I use that at trial? Is it
something I could use or is it just something I
think or I feel? Because that's not going to carry
the day. It has to be hard evidence. That's why
(12:14):
I was asking initially of both of them, the Proud Foits,
what kind of car do you drive? What year is it?
I want to find out if they've got a NAV
system in it. I want to find if that has
been looked at. Remember how valuable that was in the
Alex Murdock trial. I mean his nap Murdoch's NAV system
(12:34):
nailed him, along with his digital phone. Evidence. I mean
it placed him at the scene of the murders at
the time of the murders. You know, it may maybe
thirty thirty seconds to a minute, and that just did
it didn't happen the way he said it happened. And
once somebody's caught to lie to me, that says something
(12:55):
nefarious is going on. Now, Cheryl, there are times people
a polygraph for more innocent reasons, like you take a
polly and you lie about smoking pot. Okay, I don't
care right now about issues like that. All I care
about is we're a Sebastian. So somebody can fill a
polly because they're covering up on some other tangential issue.
(13:19):
So you know, I have to weigh what they're saying.
Why would they lie about a flashlight? Why would they
lie about a dog hitting around the house. I can't
think of reasons that are not nefarious.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
You know, just the way you're talking now, you're so
good and always just coming back.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
To what the basics are, What evidence do we have?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Forget being emotional, forget how you might respond if it was.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Your child and all that. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
So the facts that we know he has no medicine
no cash, no vehicle, no shoes, no cell phone, no
extra clothes.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
This does not look like a child that ran away.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
This does not sound at all to me like somebody
got in that house and got him. There's no forced entry.
The dogs didn't react. And the scary thing is when
she says I heard a thud, She says he responded
to her when she said, I don't know what you're
doing in there, but go to bed, He's like, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
If I heard it, so said number one, I can
find out what it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I don't like the word thud.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, set on my rear end and wonder, hey is
John David is Lucy? Okay, go find out. Like last
night Cheryl McCollum, I went in Lucy's room. My mother,
you know, it's ninety two and lives with us. She
woke us, woke me up, and I'll happened. I thought, well,
I'm gonna check in on the twins. I peeked in
(14:54):
John David's room. He was out called. I peeked in
Lucy's and then I shut the door and I went,
wait a minute, did I I see a light at
this time? And I peeped back in there and little
miss thing was under almost under the covers, with her
cell phone on, looking at skincare regimens. Don't even you know.
And this was that quarter of twelve. I'm like, Lucy,
(15:18):
are you awake, sweetheart? She goes, yes, ma'am. She's so cute.
I can't even fussate. I'm like, don't you have a
US history test tomorrow? She's like, I studied. I'm like,
but you're not gonna you won't be able to keep
your eyes open, sweetheart, go to sleep. My point is,
when you think something's off, you go look, you check
(15:40):
on it. If I heard a big thud, you darn right,
O would be in just none of it's fitting together
because I wouldn't respond that way. But does that mean
that there was wrongdoing? I'm telling you it goes back
to the dogs and to potential lies. Another thing disturbed me,
(16:01):
And when I look online, I see so much vitriol
and so much hate toward the Proud Foots. That does
not carry the day in finding Sebastian. Everybody better bring
it down a notch and think about what really happened
that night. The hard evidence, Cheryl. One thing that was
(16:21):
brought up that I found really interesting was what he
allegedly had on when he went out that evening for
dinner and bullying who was really there and compared to
what he was wearing when the mom said he disappeared.
I just don't see how you just disappear from your
(16:42):
house in the middle of the night and you don't
know anything that happened.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Absolutely, now that's.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
An issue right there. The clothing. Who saw the clothing?
Is there a picture of the clothing. That's something I'm
really interested in right now.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
I can't agree more.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And you know, something else that stood out to me,
just as a side is if you look at the
original Amber alert, you know he's wearing a shirt that
literally says optimism.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
It just kind of bugs me that, of all the
photographs of this child you could have picked, it's that,
because it's almost like you're subliminally trying to say something.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I just didn't like it.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
It's just me, Okay, yeah, I can't use that at trial.
Next I know, next I know he had on an
optimism T shirt. Oh okay, no, no, I'm with you, and.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
That we talked about some real evidence, and that's why
I love talking to you. Hey, why don't we switch
real quick and talk about Oklahoma real fast. We've got
two women missing, one twenty seven Veronica Butler, one thirty nine,
Julian Kelly, and police have now come out and said
evidence in the car indicates foul play.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I'm very concerned about you, Cheryl McCollum, because I have
a sneaking suspicion you are not watching our new program
on MSM Emma's and Mothers Sally m Mother in the
Atlanta jurisdiction where you are, it's channel sixty six, because
we just covered this last night, a full hour share
(18:10):
on my column that apparently you did not watch.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
That's the reason I'm bringing it up because I know
you're up to speed.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
I know you're in the new Doctor Phil.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Network, and congratulations, I'm proud to say I'm part of it.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Hey, will you come on with me?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I would love to come on with you, And let
me tell you something I loved more than anything, your banter.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
You and Steve Harvey. The two of you were adorable.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I watched the video was a quick little video, but
y'all were just so cute. You were like, Hey, I'm
here with Doctor Phil, and here's Steve Harvey and he's like, hey, hey,
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Supposed to be here, don't take my picture. It was
pretty funny. Y'all were great.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I really really like Harvey. We go back a long
way and he's a great guy. He works harder than
anybody I know, really really hard worker. The two women,
the two women, Okay, there is a witness, get this, Cheryl.
They leave Elkhart and there's three jurisdictions. That's a problem
(19:12):
because you know, very often the jurisdictions don't have the
database of the other jurisdiction. They're not talking to the
other jurisdictions. No, ill will, They're just you know, that's
not what they're doing their own thing, right, Yeah, that's
even another state, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas. And they leave Elkhart
(19:32):
and they travel about forty five minutes, about sixteen miles.
I don't know why that took forty five minutes, but
it was a forty five minute drive at nine am.
They should have gotten there to get her two children
for a birthday party at the Four Corners Trading Company.
They never made it, so that's just the car is
(19:53):
spotted at ten three miles from the destination in one
hour over what hour they leave at nine. The car
is spot at a band at ten, and a witness
states that the on the driver's side, I don't know
if it's the front of the back on the driver's
side window was bashed in. It's a blue Kia or
(20:16):
Toyota suv, and law enforcement says evidence in the car
tells them it's foul play. That's what I know right now.
I also know that there was bad blood between one
of the moms. One's a preacher wife, the other it's
the other one, the younger one, the twenty seven year
old that was going to have the birthday party with
the children that she had set up. There was bad
(20:39):
blood between her and her ex. And it was the
ex's mother, a grandma, paternal grandma, was coming to meet her.
So I got to figure out, was this random ount
in the middle of the country like where we grew up,
is you know, a carjacker there? Probably not, which means
(21:00):
this is somebody that knew them and knew they were
going to that birthday party. Sake that RaSE Cheryl McCallum.
That certainly narrows the suspect pool, right.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
It narrows it greatly. And I mean to me again.
The obvious person to look at is the person that
she's having the issue with with custody, her eggs. She's
got four children. When law enforcement says, we have every
reason to believe they're in danger, there is something in
that car, whether it's.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
If they're still if they're still alive, I've got the
polygrapher calling in. I love you, but I gotta go.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Love you, go, go, go bye, buddy. Just like a
rodeo roundup.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Nancy is fast and furious, and when she says pull,
I mean she's got to go. So she got a
phone call from the polygrapher regarding the stepdad with Sebastian Rogers,
so she had to go. She is not going to
let any grass grow under her feet ever. So hopefully
we will have an update for y'all on Sebastian next Friday,
(22:05):
and we're going to be all week trying to put
information out about Veronica Butler and Jilly and Kelly, and
hopefully law enforcement is going to be able to track
some things down and locate where these two ladies are.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Y'all.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I appreciate y'all being with us another week with the
True Crime Roundup.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and that was Nancy Grace
Sebastian Rogers is still missing. The fifteen year old autistic
young man has been missing.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Since February twenty six.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
My girl, Nancy Grace offered the stepdad a polygraph. Stepdad says,
name the place in time Nancy Grace did.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
He's a no show yees, Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I was putting up that money out of my own
pocket to get a very well respected polygrapher to do
the polygraph and to go to the Memphis area to
make it happen. All along Proudfoot had said he would
do it. Then when I got right down to it,
(00:54):
the whole thing blew up and he blames the TBI. Now,
as a long time prosecutor, I would not agree. I
would not stipulate, as you know we have to do
for a polygraph to come in in a criminal case
both side. In some jurisdictions, both sides have to stipulate,
(01:14):
agree to allow the polygraph in before the poly is taken,
all right, and then you're stuck with the results, whether
you like him or not. But I would never do
that because I didn't know what the outcome was going
to be and I wanted to make sure my evidence
was strong. Long story short, I still like to look
(01:38):
at polygraphs. If somebody passes a polygraph that gives them
the indisha of reliability, a veracity of truthfulness, just because
I don't bring it into court, it would still be
a tool for me to say, hey, this guy's telling
the truth. Maybe he's telling the truth about other things.
It's a very important tool. So why wouldn't take the polly?
(02:03):
He blames the TBI. My point is, why wouldn't the
TBI want an additional polly.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
They're a fantastic investigative tool. And again, he can also
take one privately.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
He can go do it.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
He can set it up through his own attorney if
that's something he wanted to do to help clear his name.
You and I have talked so often about Mark Klass.
Let's eliminate me, so y'all can go find my child.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
This is an opportunity for them to get past that
and on to what really happened to their boy.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
But let's talk about it.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Nancy, you have told the story about when John David
went missing in the store for seven seconds and you
lost your complete mind. You made them shut the store down,
and he was just playing hide and seek. They have
left town.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
I don't like it now in their defense, and don't
think defending anybody or prosecuting anybody. Here's how you win
a case. You anticipate, you think on what they are
going to do, then you destroy it. I've been thinking
of what they're saying. They said they left town because
(03:20):
he Proudfoot had to go to work. She went with him,
and they told me that they're getting a lot of
hate and people know where they live. Did they leave
because they're being harassed? Is she really afraid? That's what
they said to me. Now, that would be their defense
(03:43):
in leaving, So I have to take that into account.
I don't know that I believe it or don't believe it.
I really do, contrary with many people believe keep an
open mind. What if they are telling the truth.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I just want to throw some things around hit me.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
If one of my children were missing, I could care
less about my own safety.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I'll tell you right now.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Second, the bio mom and stepdad are now no longer
talking to the bio dad.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
That's not a good look either.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
She is saying things like, well, we're getting threads, and
you know, people are driving by our house at all hours,
and our neighbors are upset. I'm going to tell you
again my child is missing. I could care less what
my neighbors think. I'm going to be a crazy person.
They are not searching for him. She keeps saying things like, quote,
(04:40):
when we find him, when we who?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
You're not looking for your child.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Cheryl, I agree with you. If it were my child,
no way would I leave in case, in case he
somehow got back home, and I would be manning search
center and putting out flyers and laying on the police
station front steps, begging and screaming and going on TV
(05:09):
and begging, taking a Polly, take my DNA. Do whatever
you want. However, Cheryl McCollum, I'm also looking at it
as a trial lawyer. That's what i'd be doing. But
I'm looking at what they're saying, and I'm analyzing it
for its veracity. Are they acting like I would act? No,
(05:34):
they're not not at all, certainly not the way you
would act. And John David was gone more longer than
seven seconds. I'd put it up around five minutes, because
I know I had Lucy under my arm like a
football and I was running. I looked like a crazy person.
My hair was crazy. No makeup. I think I'd actually
(05:57):
been in the community pool with them morning. It just
it was insane, and those moments of thinking John David
had been taken was awful. Literally screaming, locked the doors,
I wouldn't let go of Lucy. It was just beyond
even tears. It was just cold fear of where is
(06:22):
my son? That's how I acted. I don't understand them, Cheryl,
I don't understand them. I think that a jury would
agree with you. However, I'm trying to figure out why,
why are they acting this way. I've been in a
lot of RV camps, you know, we like to RV
(06:42):
in camp, and I find it hard to believe when
your child's missing, your hold up in an RV camp
or anywhere not at the search location.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
You know, here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
If you and I were sitting at our original Zone
seven and we had this case and I said to
you as a prosecutor, hey, Nancy, the mom said that
Sebastian took the trash out to the end of the driveway,
that was his chore. Then she says a flashlights missing.
(07:15):
Then there's a video that depicts maybe flashlights. But now
they're saying no it's a trash truck, and now law
enforcement is checking a landfilled I don't like that because
that looks like to me, your child is mission.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Do you notice a flashlight ain't there?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That sounds like somebody said to her, hey, look at
this video or those flashlights? Oh yeah, flashlights missing. And
then they asked the stepdad about it. And this is
a direct quote. I want you to tell me what
you think of this. As a prosecutor, everything that everybody
is trying to assume is a flashlight. I hate to
say this, but it's not as much.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
As we would love it to be. It's not love
it to be a flashlight.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
So you're telling me you would either love that to
be Sebastian out there at three eleven in the morning
with a flashlight and there's two flashlights, which means somebody
is with him, which means that seems coordinated. But there's
no evidence on his phone or computer or anything else
that he's met up with somebody, and he ain't got
no shoes on. You would love it to be a flashlight?
(08:23):
Like that is baffling to me.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
All of these things.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Well, it's my understanding that law enforcement has told various
sources that those were not flashlights, So that whole theory
is a waste of my time. If they're saying it's
not a flashlight, it's not a flashlight, they have a
reason for saying that. They have probably digitally enhanced the
(08:47):
video and of determined it was not a flashlight. You
ever been sitting in your house and you see carl
lights turned somewhere. You can't quite make it out, you
don't know where it is. That's what I think it was.
At first, I was hoping that there was evidence that
he had snuck away from the house on his own,
(09:08):
but that's not what happened. Regarding those flashlights, they're not
flashlights if what we're being told is true, So that
debunks the whole theory. What really is bothering me the most, sheeryl,
because the lights could have been anything. It could have
been a neighbor pulling in or out, could have been
(09:29):
any number of things. What's disturbing me is the dogs.
The dogs you've known from the beginning. That's my problem
because she Katie Proudfoot said the dogs hit outside the house,
and no matter who I ask, I get different answers.
Because if the dogs did not hit outside the house.
(09:52):
Then he did not leave the house much less barefoot.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And you're talking about a child that's had no medicine
in six weeks, no food that we know of, no
way to get any food, no way to get any help.
Nobody has seen anything of him, not one legitimate sighting
of this child.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Now, let me ask you one other thing. You and
I are big on loyalty.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
We are married to two people that we trust without question.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I heard on.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
More than one video the.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Bio Dad talking about Sebastian was going to come and
live with him, and he had been talking to Chris
Proudfoot about getting Sebastian to come live with him, like
work on Katie about it. I cannot fathom an ex
husband and my current husband working together to get my
(10:47):
child away from me.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Oh hell no. I mean, you know, I love David,
but I've made it very clear. You know they're my
number one Amen. That's just and a lot of people say, hey,
that's wrong. They're my responsibility, it is my duty, and
I'll want to take care of them. They're my number
(11:11):
one priority on this earth anyway. And it would be
a cold day in hubl that David Lynch would try
to fanangle around to get the children away from me. Oh,
they'd be hell to pay. I can tell you that
much right now. But that said, I wouldn't like any
I mean, think about your best friend if you found
(11:33):
out your best friend was conniding against you, much less
your husband. It's important in that it gives me an
insight into the dynamic. And another thing, Cheryl, I don't
shoot from the hip. All of this evidence, all of
these thoughts, all of these observations we're discussing, is in
(11:53):
my stack of evidence. But I have to analyze it
and figure out what does it mean in the sense
of how could I use that at trial? Is it
something I could use or is it just something I
think or I feel? Because that's not going to carry
the day. It has to be hard evidence. That's why
(12:14):
I was asking initially of both of them, the Proud Foits,
what kind of car do you drive? What year is it?
I want to find out if they've got a NAV
system in it. I want to find if that has
been looked at. Remember how valuable that was in the
Alex Murdock trial. I mean his nap Murdoch's NAV system
(12:34):
nailed him, along with his digital phone. Evidence. I mean
it placed him at the scene of the murders at
the time of the murders. You know, it may maybe
thirty thirty seconds to a minute, and that just did
it didn't happen the way he said it happened. And
once somebody's caught to lie to me, that says something
(12:55):
nefarious is going on. Now, Cheryl, there are times people
a polygraph for more innocent reasons, like you take a
polly and you lie about smoking pot. Okay, I don't
care right now about issues like that. All I care
about is we're a Sebastian. So somebody can fill a
polly because they're covering up on some other tangential issue.
(13:19):
So you know, I have to weigh what they're saying.
Why would they lie about a flashlight? Why would they
lie about a dog hitting around the house. I can't
think of reasons that are not nefarious.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
You know, just the way you're talking now, you're so
good and always just coming back.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
To what the basics are, What evidence do we have?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Forget being emotional, forget how you might respond if it was.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Your child and all that. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
So the facts that we know he has no medicine
no cash, no vehicle, no shoes, no cell phone, no
extra clothes.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
This does not look like a child that ran away.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
This does not sound at all to me like somebody
got in that house and got him. There's no forced entry.
The dogs didn't react. And the scary thing is when
she says I heard a thud, She says he responded
to her when she said, I don't know what you're
doing in there, but go to bed, He's like, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
If I heard it, so said number one, I can
find out what it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I don't like the word thud.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, set on my rear end and wonder, hey is
John David is Lucy? Okay, go find out. Like last
night Cheryl McCollum, I went in Lucy's room. My mother,
you know, it's ninety two and lives with us. She
woke us, woke me up, and I'll happened. I thought, well,
I'm gonna check in on the twins. I peeked in
(14:54):
John David's room. He was out called. I peeked in
Lucy's and then I shut the door and I went,
wait a minute, did I I see a light at
this time? And I peeped back in there and little
miss thing was under almost under the covers, with her
cell phone on, looking at skincare regimens. Don't even you know.
And this was that quarter of twelve. I'm like, Lucy,
(15:18):
are you awake, sweetheart? She goes, yes, ma'am. She's so cute.
I can't even fussate. I'm like, don't you have a
US history test tomorrow? She's like, I studied. I'm like,
but you're not gonna you won't be able to keep
your eyes open, sweetheart, go to sleep. My point is,
when you think something's off, you go look, you check
(15:40):
on it. If I heard a big thud, you darn right,
O would be in just none of it's fitting together
because I wouldn't respond that way. But does that mean
that there was wrongdoing? I'm telling you it goes back
to the dogs and to potential lies. Another thing disturbed me,
(16:01):
And when I look online, I see so much vitriol
and so much hate toward the Proud Foots. That does
not carry the day in finding Sebastian. Everybody better bring
it down a notch and think about what really happened
that night. The hard evidence, Cheryl. One thing that was
(16:21):
brought up that I found really interesting was what he
allegedly had on when he went out that evening for
dinner and bullying who was really there and compared to
what he was wearing when the mom said he disappeared.
I just don't see how you just disappear from your
(16:42):
house in the middle of the night and you don't
know anything that happened.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Absolutely, now that's.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
An issue right there. The clothing. Who saw the clothing?
Is there a picture of the clothing. That's something I'm
really interested in right now.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
I can't agree more.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And you know, something else that stood out to me,
just as a side is if you look at the
original Amber alert, you know he's wearing a shirt that
literally says optimism.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
It just kind of bugs me that, of all the
photographs of this child you could have picked, it's that,
because it's almost like you're subliminally trying to say something.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I just didn't like it.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
It's just me, Okay, yeah, I can't use that at trial.
Next I know, next I know he had on an
optimism T shirt. Oh okay, no, no, I'm with you, and.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
That we talked about some real evidence, and that's why
I love talking to you. Hey, why don't we switch
real quick and talk about Oklahoma real fast. We've got
two women missing, one twenty seven Veronica Butler, one thirty nine,
Julian Kelly, and police have now come out and said
evidence in the car indicates foul play.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I'm very concerned about you, Cheryl McCollum, because I have
a sneaking suspicion you are not watching our new program
on MSM Emma's and Mothers Sally m Mother in the
Atlanta jurisdiction where you are, it's channel sixty six, because
we just covered this last night, a full hour share
(18:10):
on my column that apparently you did not watch.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
That's the reason I'm bringing it up because I know
you're up to speed.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
I know you're in the new Doctor Phil.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Network, and congratulations, I'm proud to say I'm part of it.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Hey, will you come on with me?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I would love to come on with you, And let
me tell you something I loved more than anything, your banter.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
You and Steve Harvey. The two of you were adorable.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I watched the video was a quick little video, but
y'all were just so cute. You were like, Hey, I'm
here with Doctor Phil, and here's Steve Harvey and he's like, hey, hey,
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Supposed to be here, don't take my picture. It was
pretty funny. Y'all were great.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I really really like Harvey. We go back a long
way and he's a great guy. He works harder than
anybody I know, really really hard worker. The two women,
the two women, Okay, there is a witness, get this, Cheryl.
They leave Elkhart and there's three jurisdictions. That's a problem
(19:12):
because you know, very often the jurisdictions don't have the
database of the other jurisdiction. They're not talking to the
other jurisdictions. No, ill will, They're just you know, that's
not what they're doing their own thing, right, Yeah, that's
even another state, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas. And they leave Elkhart
(19:32):
and they travel about forty five minutes, about sixteen miles.
I don't know why that took forty five minutes, but
it was a forty five minute drive at nine am.
They should have gotten there to get her two children
for a birthday party at the Four Corners Trading Company.
They never made it, so that's just the car is
(19:53):
spotted at ten three miles from the destination in one
hour over what hour they leave at nine. The car
is spot at a band at ten, and a witness
states that the on the driver's side, I don't know
if it's the front of the back on the driver's
side window was bashed in. It's a blue Kia or
(20:16):
Toyota suv, and law enforcement says evidence in the car
tells them it's foul play. That's what I know right now.
I also know that there was bad blood between one
of the moms. One's a preacher wife, the other it's
the other one, the younger one, the twenty seven year
old that was going to have the birthday party with
the children that she had set up. There was bad
(20:39):
blood between her and her ex. And it was the
ex's mother, a grandma, paternal grandma, was coming to meet her.
So I got to figure out, was this random ount
in the middle of the country like where we grew up,
is you know, a carjacker there? Probably not, which means
(21:00):
this is somebody that knew them and knew they were
going to that birthday party. Sake that RaSE Cheryl McCallum.
That certainly narrows the suspect pool, right.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
It narrows it greatly. And I mean to me again.
The obvious person to look at is the person that
she's having the issue with with custody, her eggs. She's
got four children. When law enforcement says, we have every
reason to believe they're in danger, there is something in
that car, whether it's.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
If they're still if they're still alive, I've got the
polygrapher calling in. I love you, but I gotta go.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Love you, go, go, go bye, buddy. Just like a
rodeo roundup.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Nancy is fast and furious, and when she says pull,
I mean she's got to go. So she got a
phone call from the polygrapher regarding the stepdad with Sebastian Rogers,
so she had to go. She is not going to
let any grass grow under her feet ever. So hopefully
we will have an update for y'all on Sebastian next Friday,
(22:05):
and we're going to be all week trying to put
information out about Veronica Butler and Jilly and Kelly, and
hopefully law enforcement is going to be able to track
some things down and locate where these two ladies are.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Y'all.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I appreciate y'all being with us another week with the
True Crime Roundup.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I'm Cheryl McCollum, and that was Nancy Grace
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