June 26, 2024 • 40 mins
Jerri Williams has always been a storyteller and, after serving 26 years as a special agent in the FBI, she has plenty of stories to tell. During most of her Bureau career, she worked on major economic fraud investigations and is amazed at the schemes and deceptions con-artist and corrupt corporate and public officials devise to steal other people’s money. She notes that with a gun, they can steal hundreds. But with a lie, they can steal millions.
Listeners can learn more about Jerri Williams at her website, and her podcast
Resources:
Jerri’s Books including Pay To Play and FBI Myths and Misconceptions
Jerri’s podcast FBI Retired Case File Review
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum, is joined by Jerri Williams, a former FBI agent, author, and host of FBI Retired Case File Review. Sheryl and Jerri discuss Jerri's extensive experience with fraud and economic crimes during her 26 years in the FBI including crimes surrounding the elderly, and adoption. Jerri shares stories from the various cons and schemes she encountered, and the psychological impact on victims. Lastly, Jerri debunks myths about what the media portrays the FBI as in shows and movies, and advocates for accurately representing the FBI in media.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- (0:10) Sheryl introduces Jerri Williams
- (1:00) Jerri's background in the FBI and her focus on economic crimes
- (6:00) The impact of fraud on elderly victims
- (8:00) Examples of fraud cases involving adoption scams
- (12:00) The challenge of victims feeling shame and responsibility
- (15:00) Misconceptions about the FBI
- (19:15) The importance of humor and camaraderie within the FBI
- (21:00) Jerri's critique of "Silence of the Lambs"
- (26:00) Sheryl and Jerri review TV shows and movies for FBI accuracy
- (36:30) Personal experiences and reflections
- (37:55) Pay To Play and FBI Myths and Misconceptions
- (39:49) “With a gun, they can steal hundreds. But with a lie, they can steal millions.” -J.W
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review!
---
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors for unsolved homicides, missi
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
When you combine the gift of storytelling with twenty six
years in the FBI, you get the electrified Jerry Williams honey.
Most of her time at the bureau, she worked economic crimes.
She was the person that oversaw so many schemes and
(00:30):
corruption and corporations and public officials. She would go after
people that devise such schemes to steal your money. She
headed up the whole than she was coming after you
if you conned, or swindled or just flat stole somebody's money.
She's an author, a podcaster, a TV consultant. We're gonna
(00:53):
get back to that in a minute. Jerry Williams loves
the FBI, and y'all, she is on a mission to
make sure what is shown about the FBI is what
the FBI actually does. She doesn't want any of the
cliches out there that are not really true. She wants
(01:14):
you to know just how remarkable the men and women
of the FBI are. And I want to tell you
something about her if you're not already impressed enough. On
November the eighteenth, twenty twenty one, in Washington, d C.
The FBI Agent Association recognized Jerry Williams as the g
Man Distinguished Service on her e So that is her peers,
(01:39):
literally her peers saying you are one of the best
there is. Jerry also serves as a TV consultant. I
tell y'all, we're going to get back to this with
TV networks and major production companies. But again she tells
them she only wants them to depict the actual factual
work that they do. I got a buddy, y'all that
(02:01):
after we saw conn Air. He told me the only
thing in that movie that was real was the elevator.
So I get it. She wants her FBI shown in
the best possible light, but the most factual light. Y'all
please help me. Welcome Jerry Williams to z Own seven.
(02:25):
And y'all know her from her own podcast, so don't
act like you don't already know her FBI Retired case
file Review, Miss Williams, Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Oh my goodness, I'm thinking, who is she talking about?
It sounds so great. Who's this person? I would to
meet her too, So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
She is fantastic. You would love her. I'm telling you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
What a great introduction. I really appreciate it. And of
course I'm just so excited to be here because I
feel like like we're best friends. You have such a
great personality and everybody loves you. So it's like I'm
on Cheryl's team now, so I'm excited to be here too.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Baby, you are on my team. But listen, I gotta
be honest. I was a little conflicted even talking to
you because I do have a past. So when you
start talking about cons and swindles and schemes, I'll tell
you one little thing. So it was about nineteen seventy
one and Hank Aaron was a pretty significant figure in Atlanta.
(03:30):
I had acquired about twenty five baseballs.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Oh this is a memorabilia.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, yeah, so I may or may not have signed
his name on a few of them.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, the statute of limitations is over, so you're s.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
The only reason I'm mentioning it because I thought, I
don't know if I want to talk to her or not,
because she's kind of you know, she may have a
file on me. But anyway, of course I sold them
like crazy people. Really that was a hot item, baby,
And then of course my parents are like, uh, you
got to give all that money back, so you know,
they weren't really with the program. We could have made
a lot of money. And I won't even get into
(04:09):
the deal where I learned what COEOD was and I
ordered an entire chinchilla farm because I didn't have to
have any money because yeah, my dad sent those back too.
And I'm like, you just want to be poor, Like
I've got these schemes, We can do them. I mean
(04:31):
people won't for CODs.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
You know. Well, I think that's what gets people in trouble.
Are those get rich quick schemes.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's the ticket. And see that's what this whole article
that I read about these chinchilla is. It said get
rich quick, and I'm like, why would anybody do it
any other way? That's come on, Agent Williams.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I'm taking notes here, sooner or later we'll get into
something maybe that's more recent.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
That's I can't talk about any of my recent stuff
only nineteen seventy one. We're going to move on. But
I want to hear from you because you weren't some
significant cases. So just tell us, do you just go
and start where you want to start?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, I have always been fascinated by fraud. Now when
you join the FBI, a lot of times, the squad
that you're assigned to is just given to you. You're
just a body, and they say, okay, well go to
that squad. I was lucky because one of the first
squads that I got to got assigned to, was a
government fraud squad. Now I don't I didn't like government
(05:37):
fraud as much as I do just economic crime because
I need a victim. And I know everybody who is
in the true crime industry understands that, you know, to
you want to care, and you want to you know,
have a connection, and so I need a victim. And
having the government, you know, just an entity as the victim,
(05:58):
wasn't as exciting. But when I started doing economic crime
and you had, you know, an elderly couple, are a
businessman that was just trying to save his company. When
you have those type of people as your victims, then
it started to really mean something to me. And it
(06:19):
became something that I knew that I wanted to do.
I mean, I've been out of the FBI for a
long time, but I'm still fascinated by fraud. I still
write about fraud, I still listen to podcasts that are
about fraud. I'm I'm into fraud, but not the way
you were back in nineteen seventy one. I'm on the
(06:41):
other side.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Well, I did, you know, change my path thankfully, But
you know, for me, when you just said that about
the elderly couple, you know, you reach a certain age
and you realize, I don't even have enough time to
start over if I needed to. And if you think
somebody you know, took some fortune or somebody's nest egg
or somebody's retirement life savings, life savings, I mean, there
(07:06):
would be no way to recover that money.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And you know, a lot of times it's not just
the life savings that hurts victims of elderly fraud. It's
also the fact that they were hoping to leave something
behind for their kids and their grandkids, and that inheritance
it's gone. You know, you talk about violence and murders
and all of that. Of course it's very, very, very serious,
(07:30):
but sometimes people forget about the significance of the violence
of being, you know, your whole life being ripped from
you and as you said, having to start over, are
not living the retirement life that you work so hard
to acquire. I mean, that's the type of financial violence too.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Absolutely, And you know, you worked some things that I
don't know that everybody even knows exist at the level
that you do, like adoption for Aull.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yes, I didn't actually work the case myself, but I
worked alongside someone in my squad, and that case and
those cases, because there were more than one, were very
very important to me because my three children were all
adopted as babies as infants. And so when I see
(08:24):
someone taking advantage of the desperation of a couple trying
to have a child and then ripping that away from
them along with their ability financial ability to do it
again or try again, it's just it's just devastating that
(08:44):
someone is so evil that they would scam a couple
out of the money that they wanted to use to
adopt a baby.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
And like you're saying, I mean you at the beginning
you thought, well do I have a victim? Yes, you
have a victim. You have a victim in every sense
of the word. Because when you cannot do things financially.
Now you're talking about your health, where you live, what
you can eat, how much medication you can afford, it
affects everything.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And the thing about being a victim of a scam
when you're a victim of violent crime, there is nobody
who's going to come to you and say it's your
fault or make you feel shameful of the fact that
you are assaulted or somebody near you was murdered. That
(09:36):
you have the automatic acceptance and condolence and love and
sympathy of those around you. But the problem with being
a victim of a scam is that you are sometimes
made to feel responsible shameful, because the difference with being
(09:59):
a victim of theft and being a victim of a
scam is that in most situations, no one held a
gun to your head and took your money. What they
did is gave you a proposal or a proposition, or
they told you a lie. Are they did something that
(10:22):
made you feel comfortable to give them your money, and
because of that, they don't get the same type of sympathy.
Sometimes when this type of activity is done to them,
you know they're made to feel like I wouldn't have
done it. And the thing is that con artists spend
(10:42):
all of their time devising schemes and ways to steal
and take other people's money, and there most of us
are not in a position to realize that we're being
scammed at the time we're being scammed.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So whether it's a charity or romance scam, it's like
the one that's going on now where somebody calls the grandparents, Oh,
your grandson's in jail. He needs bond right now. You've
got to pay it right now.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Right now, that urgency.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, well, you don't want him sitting in jail. You've
heard such horrible things that happen to people when they're
in jail, so of course they pay it immediately. And
a child, of course, is not in jail.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Child is at college or you know, on spring break someplace,
having a great time, and they have no idea you
know that the again mental violence that's being done to
their grandparents as they desperately try to save their their grandchild.
I just isn't it just amazing? Can't you? Don't you
wonder what people say to themselves that make them feel
(11:49):
that it's okay to do this to others.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It's remarkable because again, you know, people work so hard
for their money and they want the best thing for themselves.
So if they're given to charity, or they're trying to
find love, or they're older and they're Hey, we can
double our money and leave something for the kids. I mean,
it's just horrible. It's absolutely debilitating, I think for families.
(12:18):
And to your point, I think there's a lot of
people that get conned and they're never gonna report it
because they feel stupid.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
We really have no idea how much the loss is
because many people, once they realize they've been conned, they
assume that nothing could be done about it, and most
of the time they're right about that, and they just
don't even tell anybody. They're so ashamed. And the message
(12:47):
I like to make sure to get out is that
these people are skilled and trained in order to do this,
and there are many people who are kind and generous
and they have no idea that someone would stoop this
low in order to take their money.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, I mean, I'm sure you know Frank Avangale and
have probably worked with him, But you know, what he
did was so simple. But you got a guy in
a pilot outfit walking through an airport. Nobody's gonna question that.
I have never once looked at a pilot in the
airport and thought, I bet he's not a real pilot.
(13:29):
I bet he's just here getting free food. Or whatever.
I mean that he did it in such a way
that people accepted it.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Well, I have to say this is kind of controversial,
but you know, there have been research done that have
indicated that a lot of things that Frank Abogneil said
that he did he didn't do either. So that's part
of it. Yeah, so that's.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Again, he continues, He continues to con it's the long game.
Who's going to know what? And now there's a movie,
you know what I mean, So people are going to
believe the movie.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah. Absolutely, So let me ask you this.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I know that you want the FBI to be shown
in the correct light, which I believe is the best light.
The things that the FBI has done is second to none,
and I don't think it needs any changing at all,
any rebranding, any recrafting. I think it's one of the
greatest organizations in the world for crime fighting. I mean,
(14:32):
I think you've got you know, Scotland Yard and a
few others, but the FBI is right there at all times.
What you know Hoover did with fingerprinting and the mob
and you know, the ten most Wanted and public Enemy
number one, we're still using it absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I mean I can't say anything against all of that.
I think though, that what most people know about the
FBI they get from books, TV and movies, and so,
you know, part of my show of putting out the
case reviews and letting people understand, you know, who the
FBI is and what the FBI does on that level
(15:11):
helps to counteract some of the things that they might
see on TV or movies. Are reading a book, because
there's a lot of things out there that are inaccurate
our cliches, especially the one where the FBI doesn't play
well with others. That is absolutely not true.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Let's get into it. So you have come on here
and we're going to have this great conversation. So why
don't you tell us about the X File?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
There are no X files. That's that's all fake that
what's all TV. What I hate to break it to you.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Well, I'm just going to have to apologize to my audience.
I thought we were going to get some you know,
first hand secret squirrel information. So the X Files don't exist.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Now they do not only only as a TV show,
a very well done, popular TV show that I even love,
but it is none of it. It's true, none of it.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Okay, Well, I guess next you're gonna tell us, Elliot,
NAIs what an FBI agent?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Elliot? And that's was not an FBI agent.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Jerry Wills a treasury Yeah, he's he was a Treasury agent.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I think I think you may need to read my book.
Not not to plug my book, but I have I
do have a book called FBI Myss and Misconceptions, a
manual for armchaired detectives. You may I'm going to send
you a copy. I'm gonna give a copy to you.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I'm gonna get that tonight. I'm gonna send it.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
To you tonight. Don't don't get it. I'm gonna send
it to you because because I think you might need
to read it.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I do need to read it. And y'all this is
why this is so important. I mean, I wanted, you know,
agent Williams to come here and break some things down.
So now I'm going to ask you, when you are
watching TV and you are watching movies, what are the
some of the top five for you where you just go,
oh good lord.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Definitely the one about the FBI doesn't play well with others.
You know, that's like, what was that movie that they
had everybody calls it a Christmas mute, a movie with
Bruce Willis Diehard. There's that famous scene where the police
are there and the bad guys are in the building,
and the FBI walks up and says, what's going on here?
(17:30):
And the police officer introduces himselves, saying, my name is
Detective so and so, and I'm in charge, and the
FBI agent looks at him and says, not anymore. It's
a great scene. But first of all, and real life,
they would have already known each other, you know, they
(17:51):
would have been dealing with each other, you know, going
up for breakfast. They would have been already acquainted. Because we,
of course, and all of our offices and major offices
have task force, you know, violent Crime task Force. You know,
we have terrorism task Force where all of the local
(18:13):
police departments and the state police, you know, local state,
federal agencies are all working together, sitting side by side
usually an FBI space, working on these cases together. So
it's very, very seldom that an FBI agent can walk
into a situation or a crime scene and he doesn't
know most of the people there.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But you know, in my department, we have the FBI
stopped by every now and then, just for the purpose
of you know what you're talking about, to make sure
we do know them, we know how to reach them,
we know who does what, and that's happened i'd say
in the last nine years at least five times to
your point. I mean, that's what they want to do,
and they want to help. You know, we can reach
(18:58):
out to the BAU ourselves and they will help us
on a case. You know, by robberies. Y'all are there
quicker than almost anybody. So it's been a great relationship
for us too. In my department, I can tell you that.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
The other cliche that you get a lot is that,
you know, FBI agents are unemotional and they have no
sense of humor. And I know, I was listening to
one of your shows, probably a few months ago, and
you had like four people on at the same time,
and you were telling stories, funny stories from your days
(19:31):
in the field. And that's the way it is, even
as FBI agents. I mean, my goodness, you got to
have thick skin because we're always you know, we were
always telling jokes and you know, making fun of each other,
and you know, it's the FBI family is a very large,
(19:51):
but dysfunctional family, and practical jokes are played all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
It's the way to get through it. I mean to me,
I mean, your your battle buddies, and you experience things
that other people number one don't know anything about and
certainly don't have to go through it. So that humor
and the you know, good time just ribbing each other,
I mean, that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Well, I mean, if you think about it this way,
just as a family of your own siblings, your brothers
and sisters, I mean, you're teasing each other and making
fun of it. You know, I'm Mom's favorite. You know,
you were adopted all of that. So you know, if
it's truly an FBI family, yeah, we're going to have
a lot of that ribbon too. So yeah, so yeah,
(20:37):
whenever I see that unemotional you know men in Black portrayal, well,
first of all, I like to remind people that there
are both lots of women and minority agents and well
not lots, but there's up good. But you know, it's
just so untrue that the age all care not just
(21:01):
about the victims, but their witnesses and even their subjects.
And you know, I've got episodes on my podcast where
we talk about how you know agents went out of
their way to protect and save and you know, their
own subjects in the case.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So Silence of the Lambs. Yes, how do you feel
about that movie?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well, I agree with you that when you have a
movie or TV show that promotes any of our law
enforcement agencies and a good light and show them and
the you know, in a heroic role, that's a good thing.
But I think most FBI profilers will let you know
(21:53):
it's a very matter of fact. You had Julia Kelly
on your show, and they'll tell you it's a very
competitive position and brand new agents who haven't even graduated
from Quantico need not apply.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, I think that's smart, and I'll go one step further,
even in my police department, not at the federal level,
at the local city level. You need time on the street.
There's no way you could possibly take on a significant
case without having some seasoning, and that you should won't
(22:28):
for yourself.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, I can't even imagine, you know, the imposter syndrome
you would experience walking into a situation as a a
profiler trying to analyze somebody else's case when you don't
even have any experience behind you. So I've done a
(22:50):
lot of interviews with different profilers from the BAU over
the years. I've been doing my podcast for eight years,
and they'll all tell you this same thing. That they
worked in the field, really honing their skills, most of them,
you know, and on squads that investigative violent crime, and
(23:12):
that's what enabled them to be able then to back
it up with research in order to be a consultant
on somebody else's case and trying to help them figure
out what's going on and who possibly could have committed
the crime.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I am a firm believer. You need to get out there.
You need to be lied to, you need to be threatened,
you need to be spit on. You get to it.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Maybe not that one, well maybe not that one.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah that's true, but it helps you. It helps you
know when you knock on the next door, is this
person lying to me? Because if you go in the
police department, you know, from high school right into the job,
or from college right into the job. You're twenty one,
I mean a couple of years ago, so you were
(24:00):
at prom. You do not know what is going on
on these streets. You're not ready. There's an underbelly and
you've got to learn it, and you've got to understand it,
and you need to know how do I make friends?
How do I talk to people? I don't know if
you have seen this, Jerry, but you've got a generation
right now that is so technologically advanced, but they don't
(24:24):
talk to each other.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I was just talking to somebody about this. I might
have been this morning about having a class. Where did
I hear that? Having a Police Academy class and during
their breaks everybody pulled out their phone and was looking
at their phone instead of communicating with their new class members.
(24:47):
Did I listen to that on a podcast or does
somebody tell me that?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
But it's the truth.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
But it's the truth now. And another thing about having
some years behind you is that you know yourself better.
So if someone says something to you or does something
to you, it doesn't hit those triggers where you respond
in a way that might not be professional. You know
(25:15):
who you are and you can take it. And your
whole purpose is just to get that person to give
you the information that you need to tell you what
you want, what you need to hear. And so no
matter what they say to you, of course, we don't
want them spitting on us. But you know, you can
(25:35):
sit there and take it and be okay with it
because you know who you are and you know the
purpose of your interaction with them, and so that also
comes from time on the earth.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
You know, agree, that's the best thing that you could
have possibly said. For the rookies listening to this, that's
the truth. And I usually warn them if you do
have something that sends you out, you just cannot hardly
control your temper. If somebody calls you X whatever it is,
you better let your partner know, let them step in
(26:10):
before you get both of y'all in some trouble, because
until you can control that, you don't need to be
out there without somebody that has your back.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I was underestimated for you know, the first half of
my FBI career. First of all, there's only one percent
of the FBI ranks or black females, And so when
I would walk into a situation, somebody's already looking at
me like who the hell is she? But you know,
(26:43):
and then you know, like automatically assume that I don't
know what I'm talking about or I don't know what
I'm doing, and then they soon find out that that's
not actually correct. And so I'm fine with it. I
don't care what you think. You know, I got a
job to do, and I am going to allow you
(27:03):
to be you so that I can get the information
that I need from you.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
But you also walked in that room correctly every single time,
so you don't have to walk in and pitch a
fit and let everybody know who you are. You showed
them money, and to me, that's the best way. If
they think, oh, you know, these women, they ought to
be at home, Okay, give her five minutes. And when
you laid out that first case and you had thirty
(27:30):
six warrants ready, they took notice.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Well, I joined the FBI in nineteen eighty two, so
not only the witnesses and the subjects felt that way,
but there might have been a few of my fellow
agents that felt that way too. So I got you know,
my skin got tough pretty quick, and then you know,
I moved on from there. Ah. So I love to,
(27:55):
you know, see these TV shows and movies and read
these books with strong, you know, determined, talented, intelligent FBI
women characters. And so I'm not as strict as I
started out being eight years ago when it came to
you know, my twenty cliches about the FBI and trying
(28:18):
to you know, to pop people on the hand with
a ruler if they got it wrong. I now realize
that again, anything positive that's out there is, you know,
a good thing. I mean, the TV show on Tuesdays
when they have the FBI shows on CBS, I mean,
I can't watch them anymore. I watched the whole first
(28:41):
season at FBI, and by the end of it, I
just couldn't do it anymore. It's a great show, it's
an entertaining show, it's popular. It is the best free
pr the FBI will ever get. But I remember watching
one show I did. I try to watch every now
and then, maybe once or two a year, and there
was a show on the International FBI International one and
(29:04):
they were in Italy, and during the first fifteen minutes
they killed with guns about seven people on Italian soil
and kept moving on, and I thought, oh, I can't
even I can't finish this, because you know, we're not
even allowed to carry guns in a foreign country as
an FBI agent assigned to you know, you know, Italy
(29:28):
or for so and they're killing people and no one
is putting handcuffs on them and taking them to jail.
So it's it's hard to watch. So if some little
boy or little girls someplaces watching that show and they say, oh,
I want to be an FBI agent, then I put
(29:48):
my hands up in surrender and say, keep going with
your show. Well, we'll turn them around and get them
set them straight, you know once once they actually get
into the FBI.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Well, I cannot agree more. I know a lot of
times people will ask me, oh, I saw such and
such show where the CSI pulled up in a hummer
and got out in stilettos and fishnet hose and a
mini skirt, and then she and the lead detective had
like this chemistry. Yeah, And they'll ask me, is that accurate?
(30:20):
And I'm like, oh, honey, that's dead on. Absolutely, that's
exactly what it's like. That's exactly what it's like. Every
day you dress you know, real sexy, and you fall
in love with the lead detective. That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
That's what we got there every day.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
But you know, it's kind of funny because the first
female police officer I ever saw on TV was policewoman
Angie Dickinson.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Oh, Angie Dickenson. Yeah, I definitely saw that show fierce.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
I thought she was unreal.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I wonder if you can still get that if it's
streaming anywhere it has to be, I'd love to watch
it again.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
But do you remember when she went under cover? Her
and she would always just play these whether it was
a hooker or you know, some business owner, well whoever
it was, but she would just take on these characters,
and I thought, man working undercover, That's what I want
to do, you know, So again to your point, whatever
(31:18):
fuels that interest is a good thing.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
We'll take it. It's a good thing. Yes, yes, again,
you know we'll have to set them straight. I you know,
we don't want them coming to you know, Quantico and
FBI Academy still believing that stuff. So hopefully they'll they'll
do their research.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
When can we kill people in Italy?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
We don't. We've certainly done with them coming and doing that.
Are embarrassing themselves in any other way, any other way.
Mine Hunter was one of my favorite shows, and I
was just so sad that we only got two seasons
out of that because I thought that was very well done.
They didn't because another one of my cliches is that
(32:01):
FBI profilers are hunting down serial killers. You know that
they're in the in the dark alley or the moldy
basement hunting down serial killers. And as we all know,
because you know, Julia Callie told you that when she
was on that they're consultants. You know, they really are
sitting at a desk most of the time and going
through the file and going through the interviews to see,
(32:23):
you know, what's done, what's been done. And the mind
Hunter show actually showed them as consultants working with you know,
the agents on the different squads, learning more and just
going out and doing their research and talking to serial killers.
I loved that show, and it ended in such a
(32:43):
way that you really want to know what happened. So
there's always these rumors every now and then about it
coming back for a third season. I hope it does,
because I really love that show.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Oh, I hope it does too. And you know, I
just got to meet John Douglas at Crome Con.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I've had him on my show. He's Oh, he's such
a wonderful guy.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Wonderful and I mean his stories in his cases, in
his background, I mean you could listen to him talk
for hours and hours and not even want to budge,
but you know, it was funny. I was telling him.
I had a professor when I was in college that
was working on the task force during the Missing and
Murdered children in Atlanta, and he talked about in Atlanta,
(33:26):
and he talked about when John Douglas came and was
helping with this profile, and that it was almost like
like he was an investigator, hard, no street level guy.
And then here comes this guy from the FBI saying
all these things like he's going to be kind of
weak and kind of pudgy and wears glasses and probably
when you arrest him, he's going to be wearing a
(33:47):
vest like from a suit. And he was like, what
kind of hocus pocus? Like, how could you possibly know
what this guy's going to be wearing? And you know,
at that time, and I think everybody's mind in Atlanta
when we finally saw Wayne Williams, that's not who we
had in mind, right, this monster was in our paid
(34:08):
about what this person should look like. And John Douglas,
of course was pretty dead owned and he was wearing
a vesk when they arrested him.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
There you go, well, you know, one of the things
I love to do is you know, once a month
I watch a TV show or movie and then I
review it for teachable moments about the FBI policy and procedures.
Last month it was Breakpoint, Remember that movie, the surfing movie.
(34:37):
Oh yeah, yeah, So I did that one. This month
it was Rob the Mob, a movie that has Ray
Romano and Andy Garcia in it. It's so much fun.
I used to look up movies as what they get
right and what they get wrong, and now looking at
it as finding teachable moments has brought the excitement of
(35:00):
watching the movie back to me because I don't have
to worry about, you know, critiquing it in a negative way,
by just using it to highlight something. And so I
really really enjoyed doing that.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
And you know what, when Breakpoint came out with Patrick
Swayzee and they rob those banks with the president mask,
that Halloween Nixon was everywhere everywhere, and I thought to myself,
this is the night. Halloween night is when you should
rob something a gas station because there's five hundred of
(35:34):
them everywhere, up and down the street, streets, everybody mixing mask.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
You'll find them, Go find them. He has a Mixon mask.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
You can't missing exactly. That's what I thought about. I
was like, this is the time you should do it,
no doubt.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Being in this true crime industry is I hate to
use the word fun because some of the cases, of
course that we talk about and we share are difficult,
and you know, they show the ugliness and the evil
that we have in the world. But what makes it
(36:16):
something that is when I use the word enjoyable, is
all of the people that really care and want to
be helpful and you know, want to be supportive. And
of course on my show, I talk about all kinds
of crimes. I'm not just talking about you know, the
missing and murdered. You know, I'm talking about espionage cases,
(36:41):
our frauds are cybercrime. You know. I try to do
a little bit of everything and keep a variety. But
just the reaction from the public, as you know, is
you know what keeps us motivated to keep doing this.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Absolutely, I'll tell it. I tell people all the time,
I love my job. It is enjoyable. It's exciting. I
can hear a sirene when I am on vacation in
another country and I'm like, I want to get in
the middle of.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Whatever it is, what's going on down there.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
That's right. But I tell people you want me to
feel that way, because the day that I don't, I
need to quit doing it. You want me to work
on your mama's case for twelve hours straight. You want
me to do that and then show up the next
day and do that again until you've got some type
of justice that you deserve and your mama deserves. That's
(37:38):
the bottom line, and we have to have that level
of I love this. I want to be a part
of it. Like you, you're retired, but you're watching movies
and TV once a month, critiquing it for a teachable moment.
You've got the podcast, you're writing the books, and I
want to tell y'all again these books, the FBI Myths
and Misconceptions and Paid a Play. Hey, you got to
(38:01):
get these books. They are so well done, and you
want to talk about teachable moments, they're all through there.
And then the podcast. I know y'all already know. I
know y'all do, because I've had people tell me when
you go have Jerry wiinim's own show. Well, I got
Jerry Williams on my show.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
You know, the retired FBI agent. Y'all know FBI retired
case file Review. Listen to the podcast if you haven't,
it's extraordinary. She is an artful storyteller and she's lived it.
That's the best part to me.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
When people talk about true crime, I don't want them
to forget about the other you know, types of crimes
that are being perpetrated against. You know your your family,
your friends, uh, and you know your co workers. There's
a lot of prime out there that people are losing.
You know, their lives, their loved ones, and their livelihoods
(38:58):
and life savings.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Well, I appreciate your career, I appreciate your devotion. It's
an honor to talk to you. It is an honor
for you to be a part of my Zone seven
because we are friends. And you ever need anything Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
You just holler, Okay, I got to get down to Atlanta.
I've never been. What I know.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
We got to make that happen. We might have to
do a wine in crime with her.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah. Has crime Con ever been in Atlanta?
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Nope?
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Made me to come to Atlanta. That absolutely. I missed
you at crime Con. I was not there this year
because there was a conflict. But I'll see you in
Denver next year.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I cannot wait, yep, I cannot wait for that to happen.
And it will be an honor to visit with you
and we'll catch up, y'all. I'm going to end Zone
seven the way that I always do with a quote.
With a gun, you can steal hundreds, but with a lie,
you can steal millions. Retired agent Jerry Williams, FBI. I'm
(40:06):
Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
When you combine the gift of storytelling with twenty six
years in the FBI, you get the electrified Jerry Williams honey.
Most of her time at the bureau, she worked economic crimes.
She was the person that oversaw so many schemes and
(00:30):
corruption and corporations and public officials. She would go after
people that devise such schemes to steal your money. She
headed up the whole than she was coming after you
if you conned, or swindled or just flat stole somebody's money.
She's an author, a podcaster, a TV consultant. We're gonna
(00:53):
get back to that in a minute. Jerry Williams loves
the FBI, and y'all, she is on a mission to
make sure what is shown about the FBI is what
the FBI actually does. She doesn't want any of the
cliches out there that are not really true. She wants
(01:14):
you to know just how remarkable the men and women
of the FBI are. And I want to tell you
something about her if you're not already impressed enough. On
November the eighteenth, twenty twenty one, in Washington, d C.
The FBI Agent Association recognized Jerry Williams as the g
Man Distinguished Service on her e So that is her peers,
(01:39):
literally her peers saying you are one of the best
there is. Jerry also serves as a TV consultant. I
tell y'all, we're going to get back to this with
TV networks and major production companies. But again she tells
them she only wants them to depict the actual factual
work that they do. I got a buddy, y'all that
(02:01):
after we saw conn Air. He told me the only
thing in that movie that was real was the elevator.
So I get it. She wants her FBI shown in
the best possible light, but the most factual light. Y'all
please help me. Welcome Jerry Williams to z Own seven.
(02:25):
And y'all know her from her own podcast, so don't
act like you don't already know her FBI Retired case
file Review, Miss Williams, Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Oh my goodness, I'm thinking, who is she talking about?
It sounds so great. Who's this person? I would to
meet her too, So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
She is fantastic. You would love her. I'm telling you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
What a great introduction. I really appreciate it. And of
course I'm just so excited to be here because I
feel like like we're best friends. You have such a
great personality and everybody loves you. So it's like I'm
on Cheryl's team now, so I'm excited to be here too.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Baby, you are on my team. But listen, I gotta
be honest. I was a little conflicted even talking to
you because I do have a past. So when you
start talking about cons and swindles and schemes, I'll tell
you one little thing. So it was about nineteen seventy
one and Hank Aaron was a pretty significant figure in Atlanta.
(03:30):
I had acquired about twenty five baseballs.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Oh this is a memorabilia.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, yeah, so I may or may not have signed
his name on a few of them.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, the statute of limitations is over, so you're s.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
The only reason I'm mentioning it because I thought, I
don't know if I want to talk to her or not,
because she's kind of you know, she may have a
file on me. But anyway, of course I sold them
like crazy people. Really that was a hot item, baby,
And then of course my parents are like, uh, you
got to give all that money back, so you know,
they weren't really with the program. We could have made
a lot of money. And I won't even get into
(04:09):
the deal where I learned what COEOD was and I
ordered an entire chinchilla farm because I didn't have to
have any money because yeah, my dad sent those back too.
And I'm like, you just want to be poor, Like
I've got these schemes, We can do them. I mean
(04:31):
people won't for CODs.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
You know. Well, I think that's what gets people in trouble.
Are those get rich quick schemes.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's the ticket. And see that's what this whole article
that I read about these chinchilla is. It said get
rich quick, and I'm like, why would anybody do it
any other way? That's come on, Agent Williams.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I'm taking notes here, sooner or later we'll get into
something maybe that's more recent.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
That's I can't talk about any of my recent stuff
only nineteen seventy one. We're going to move on. But
I want to hear from you because you weren't some
significant cases. So just tell us, do you just go
and start where you want to start?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, I have always been fascinated by fraud. Now when
you join the FBI, a lot of times, the squad
that you're assigned to is just given to you. You're
just a body, and they say, okay, well go to
that squad. I was lucky because one of the first
squads that I got to got assigned to, was a
government fraud squad. Now I don't I didn't like government
(05:37):
fraud as much as I do just economic crime because
I need a victim. And I know everybody who is
in the true crime industry understands that, you know, to
you want to care, and you want to you know,
have a connection, and so I need a victim. And
having the government, you know, just an entity as the victim,
(05:58):
wasn't as exciting. But when I started doing economic crime
and you had, you know, an elderly couple, are a
businessman that was just trying to save his company. When
you have those type of people as your victims, then
it started to really mean something to me. And it
(06:19):
became something that I knew that I wanted to do.
I mean, I've been out of the FBI for a
long time, but I'm still fascinated by fraud. I still
write about fraud, I still listen to podcasts that are
about fraud. I'm I'm into fraud, but not the way
you were back in nineteen seventy one. I'm on the
(06:41):
other side.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Well, I did, you know, change my path thankfully, But
you know, for me, when you just said that about
the elderly couple, you know, you reach a certain age
and you realize, I don't even have enough time to
start over if I needed to. And if you think
somebody you know, took some fortune or somebody's nest egg
or somebody's retirement life savings, life savings, I mean, there
(07:06):
would be no way to recover that money.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And you know, a lot of times it's not just
the life savings that hurts victims of elderly fraud. It's
also the fact that they were hoping to leave something
behind for their kids and their grandkids, and that inheritance
it's gone. You know, you talk about violence and murders
and all of that. Of course it's very, very, very serious,
(07:30):
but sometimes people forget about the significance of the violence
of being, you know, your whole life being ripped from
you and as you said, having to start over, are
not living the retirement life that you work so hard
to acquire. I mean, that's the type of financial violence too.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Absolutely, And you know, you worked some things that I
don't know that everybody even knows exist at the level
that you do, like adoption for Aull.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yes, I didn't actually work the case myself, but I
worked alongside someone in my squad, and that case and
those cases, because there were more than one, were very
very important to me because my three children were all
adopted as babies as infants. And so when I see
(08:24):
someone taking advantage of the desperation of a couple trying
to have a child and then ripping that away from
them along with their ability financial ability to do it
again or try again, it's just it's just devastating that
(08:44):
someone is so evil that they would scam a couple
out of the money that they wanted to use to
adopt a baby.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
And like you're saying, I mean you at the beginning
you thought, well do I have a victim? Yes, you
have a victim. You have a victim in every sense
of the word. Because when you cannot do things financially.
Now you're talking about your health, where you live, what
you can eat, how much medication you can afford, it
affects everything.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And the thing about being a victim of a scam
when you're a victim of violent crime, there is nobody
who's going to come to you and say it's your
fault or make you feel shameful of the fact that
you are assaulted or somebody near you was murdered. That
(09:36):
you have the automatic acceptance and condolence and love and
sympathy of those around you. But the problem with being
a victim of a scam is that you are sometimes
made to feel responsible shameful, because the difference with being
(09:59):
a victim of theft and being a victim of a
scam is that in most situations, no one held a
gun to your head and took your money. What they
did is gave you a proposal or a proposition, or
they told you a lie. Are they did something that
(10:22):
made you feel comfortable to give them your money, and
because of that, they don't get the same type of sympathy.
Sometimes when this type of activity is done to them,
you know they're made to feel like I wouldn't have
done it. And the thing is that con artists spend
(10:42):
all of their time devising schemes and ways to steal
and take other people's money, and there most of us
are not in a position to realize that we're being
scammed at the time we're being scammed.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So whether it's a charity or romance scam, it's like
the one that's going on now where somebody calls the grandparents, Oh,
your grandson's in jail. He needs bond right now. You've
got to pay it right now.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Right now, that urgency.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, well, you don't want him sitting in jail. You've
heard such horrible things that happen to people when they're
in jail, so of course they pay it immediately. And
a child, of course, is not in jail.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Child is at college or you know, on spring break someplace,
having a great time, and they have no idea you
know that the again mental violence that's being done to
their grandparents as they desperately try to save their their grandchild.
I just isn't it just amazing? Can't you? Don't you
wonder what people say to themselves that make them feel
(11:49):
that it's okay to do this to others.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It's remarkable because again, you know, people work so hard
for their money and they want the best thing for themselves.
So if they're given to charity, or they're trying to
find love, or they're older and they're Hey, we can
double our money and leave something for the kids. I mean,
it's just horrible. It's absolutely debilitating, I think for families.
(12:18):
And to your point, I think there's a lot of
people that get conned and they're never gonna report it
because they feel stupid.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
We really have no idea how much the loss is
because many people, once they realize they've been conned, they
assume that nothing could be done about it, and most
of the time they're right about that, and they just
don't even tell anybody. They're so ashamed. And the message
(12:47):
I like to make sure to get out is that
these people are skilled and trained in order to do this,
and there are many people who are kind and generous
and they have no idea that someone would stoop this
low in order to take their money.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, I mean, I'm sure you know Frank Avangale and
have probably worked with him, But you know, what he
did was so simple. But you got a guy in
a pilot outfit walking through an airport. Nobody's gonna question that.
I have never once looked at a pilot in the
airport and thought, I bet he's not a real pilot.
(13:29):
I bet he's just here getting free food. Or whatever.
I mean that he did it in such a way
that people accepted it.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Well, I have to say this is kind of controversial,
but you know, there have been research done that have
indicated that a lot of things that Frank Abogneil said
that he did he didn't do either. So that's part
of it. Yeah, so that's.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Again, he continues, He continues to con it's the long game.
Who's going to know what? And now there's a movie,
you know what I mean, So people are going to
believe the movie.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah. Absolutely, So let me ask you this.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I know that you want the FBI to be shown
in the correct light, which I believe is the best light.
The things that the FBI has done is second to none,
and I don't think it needs any changing at all,
any rebranding, any recrafting. I think it's one of the
greatest organizations in the world for crime fighting. I mean,
(14:32):
I think you've got you know, Scotland Yard and a
few others, but the FBI is right there at all times.
What you know Hoover did with fingerprinting and the mob
and you know, the ten most Wanted and public Enemy
number one, we're still using it absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I mean I can't say anything against all of that.
I think though, that what most people know about the
FBI they get from books, TV and movies, and so,
you know, part of my show of putting out the
case reviews and letting people understand, you know, who the
FBI is and what the FBI does on that level
(15:11):
helps to counteract some of the things that they might
see on TV or movies. Are reading a book, because
there's a lot of things out there that are inaccurate
our cliches, especially the one where the FBI doesn't play
well with others. That is absolutely not true.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Let's get into it. So you have come on here
and we're going to have this great conversation. So why
don't you tell us about the X File?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
There are no X files. That's that's all fake that
what's all TV. What I hate to break it to you.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Well, I'm just going to have to apologize to my audience.
I thought we were going to get some you know,
first hand secret squirrel information. So the X Files don't exist.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Now they do not only only as a TV show,
a very well done, popular TV show that I even love,
but it is none of it. It's true, none of it.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Okay, Well, I guess next you're gonna tell us, Elliot,
NAIs what an FBI agent?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Elliot? And that's was not an FBI agent.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Jerry Wills a treasury Yeah, he's he was a Treasury agent.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I think I think you may need to read my book.
Not not to plug my book, but I have I
do have a book called FBI Myss and Misconceptions, a
manual for armchaired detectives. You may I'm going to send
you a copy. I'm gonna give a copy to you.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I'm gonna get that tonight. I'm gonna send it.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
To you tonight. Don't don't get it. I'm gonna send
it to you because because I think you might need
to read it.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I do need to read it. And y'all this is
why this is so important. I mean, I wanted, you know,
agent Williams to come here and break some things down.
So now I'm going to ask you, when you are
watching TV and you are watching movies, what are the
some of the top five for you where you just go,
oh good lord.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Definitely the one about the FBI doesn't play well with others.
You know, that's like, what was that movie that they
had everybody calls it a Christmas mute, a movie with
Bruce Willis Diehard. There's that famous scene where the police
are there and the bad guys are in the building,
and the FBI walks up and says, what's going on here?
(17:30):
And the police officer introduces himselves, saying, my name is
Detective so and so, and I'm in charge, and the
FBI agent looks at him and says, not anymore. It's
a great scene. But first of all, and real life,
they would have already known each other, you know, they
(17:51):
would have been dealing with each other, you know, going
up for breakfast. They would have been already acquainted. Because we,
of course, and all of our offices and major offices
have task force, you know, violent Crime task Force. You know,
we have terrorism task Force where all of the local
(18:13):
police departments and the state police, you know, local state,
federal agencies are all working together, sitting side by side
usually an FBI space, working on these cases together. So
it's very, very seldom that an FBI agent can walk
into a situation or a crime scene and he doesn't
know most of the people there.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But you know, in my department, we have the FBI
stopped by every now and then, just for the purpose
of you know what you're talking about, to make sure
we do know them, we know how to reach them,
we know who does what, and that's happened i'd say
in the last nine years at least five times to
your point. I mean, that's what they want to do,
and they want to help. You know, we can reach
(18:58):
out to the BAU ourselves and they will help us
on a case. You know, by robberies. Y'all are there
quicker than almost anybody. So it's been a great relationship
for us too. In my department, I can tell you that.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
The other cliche that you get a lot is that,
you know, FBI agents are unemotional and they have no
sense of humor. And I know, I was listening to
one of your shows, probably a few months ago, and
you had like four people on at the same time,
and you were telling stories, funny stories from your days
(19:31):
in the field. And that's the way it is, even
as FBI agents. I mean, my goodness, you got to
have thick skin because we're always you know, we were
always telling jokes and you know, making fun of each other,
and you know, it's the FBI family is a very large,
(19:51):
but dysfunctional family, and practical jokes are played all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
It's the way to get through it. I mean to me,
I mean, your your battle buddies, and you experience things
that other people number one don't know anything about and
certainly don't have to go through it. So that humor
and the you know, good time just ribbing each other,
I mean, that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Well, I mean, if you think about it this way,
just as a family of your own siblings, your brothers
and sisters, I mean, you're teasing each other and making
fun of it. You know, I'm Mom's favorite. You know,
you were adopted all of that. So you know, if
it's truly an FBI family, yeah, we're going to have
a lot of that ribbon too. So yeah, so yeah,
(20:37):
whenever I see that unemotional you know men in Black portrayal, well,
first of all, I like to remind people that there
are both lots of women and minority agents and well
not lots, but there's up good. But you know, it's
just so untrue that the age all care not just
(21:01):
about the victims, but their witnesses and even their subjects.
And you know, I've got episodes on my podcast where
we talk about how you know agents went out of
their way to protect and save and you know, their
own subjects in the case.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So Silence of the Lambs. Yes, how do you feel
about that movie?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well, I agree with you that when you have a
movie or TV show that promotes any of our law
enforcement agencies and a good light and show them and
the you know, in a heroic role, that's a good thing.
But I think most FBI profilers will let you know
(21:53):
it's a very matter of fact. You had Julia Kelly
on your show, and they'll tell you it's a very
competitive position and brand new agents who haven't even graduated
from Quantico need not apply.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, I think that's smart, and I'll go one step further,
even in my police department, not at the federal level,
at the local city level. You need time on the street.
There's no way you could possibly take on a significant
case without having some seasoning, and that you should won't
(22:28):
for yourself.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, I can't even imagine, you know, the imposter syndrome
you would experience walking into a situation as a a
profiler trying to analyze somebody else's case when you don't
even have any experience behind you. So I've done a
(22:50):
lot of interviews with different profilers from the BAU over
the years. I've been doing my podcast for eight years,
and they'll all tell you this same thing. That they
worked in the field, really honing their skills, most of them,
you know, and on squads that investigative violent crime, and
(23:12):
that's what enabled them to be able then to back
it up with research in order to be a consultant
on somebody else's case and trying to help them figure
out what's going on and who possibly could have committed
the crime.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I am a firm believer. You need to get out there.
You need to be lied to, you need to be threatened,
you need to be spit on. You get to it.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Maybe not that one, well maybe not that one.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah that's true, but it helps you. It helps you
know when you knock on the next door, is this
person lying to me? Because if you go in the
police department, you know, from high school right into the job,
or from college right into the job. You're twenty one,
I mean a couple of years ago, so you were
(24:00):
at prom. You do not know what is going on
on these streets. You're not ready. There's an underbelly and
you've got to learn it, and you've got to understand it,
and you need to know how do I make friends?
How do I talk to people? I don't know if
you have seen this, Jerry, but you've got a generation
right now that is so technologically advanced, but they don't
(24:24):
talk to each other.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I was just talking to somebody about this. I might
have been this morning about having a class. Where did
I hear that? Having a Police Academy class and during
their breaks everybody pulled out their phone and was looking
at their phone instead of communicating with their new class members.
(24:47):
Did I listen to that on a podcast or does
somebody tell me that?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
But it's the truth.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
But it's the truth now. And another thing about having
some years behind you is that you know yourself better.
So if someone says something to you or does something
to you, it doesn't hit those triggers where you respond
in a way that might not be professional. You know
(25:15):
who you are and you can take it. And your
whole purpose is just to get that person to give
you the information that you need to tell you what
you want, what you need to hear. And so no
matter what they say to you, of course, we don't
want them spitting on us. But you know, you can
(25:35):
sit there and take it and be okay with it
because you know who you are and you know the
purpose of your interaction with them, and so that also
comes from time on the earth.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
You know, agree, that's the best thing that you could
have possibly said. For the rookies listening to this, that's
the truth. And I usually warn them if you do
have something that sends you out, you just cannot hardly
control your temper. If somebody calls you X whatever it is,
you better let your partner know, let them step in
(26:10):
before you get both of y'all in some trouble, because
until you can control that, you don't need to be
out there without somebody that has your back.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I was underestimated for you know, the first half of
my FBI career. First of all, there's only one percent
of the FBI ranks or black females, And so when
I would walk into a situation, somebody's already looking at
me like who the hell is she? But you know,
(26:43):
and then you know, like automatically assume that I don't
know what I'm talking about or I don't know what
I'm doing, and then they soon find out that that's
not actually correct. And so I'm fine with it. I
don't care what you think. You know, I got a
job to do, and I am going to allow you
(27:03):
to be you so that I can get the information
that I need from you.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
But you also walked in that room correctly every single time,
so you don't have to walk in and pitch a
fit and let everybody know who you are. You showed
them money, and to me, that's the best way. If
they think, oh, you know, these women, they ought to
be at home, Okay, give her five minutes. And when
you laid out that first case and you had thirty
(27:30):
six warrants ready, they took notice.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Well, I joined the FBI in nineteen eighty two, so
not only the witnesses and the subjects felt that way,
but there might have been a few of my fellow
agents that felt that way too. So I got you know,
my skin got tough pretty quick, and then you know,
I moved on from there. Ah. So I love to,
(27:55):
you know, see these TV shows and movies and read
these books with strong, you know, determined, talented, intelligent FBI
women characters. And so I'm not as strict as I
started out being eight years ago when it came to
you know, my twenty cliches about the FBI and trying
(28:18):
to you know, to pop people on the hand with
a ruler if they got it wrong. I now realize
that again, anything positive that's out there is, you know,
a good thing. I mean, the TV show on Tuesdays
when they have the FBI shows on CBS, I mean,
I can't watch them anymore. I watched the whole first
(28:41):
season at FBI, and by the end of it, I
just couldn't do it anymore. It's a great show, it's
an entertaining show, it's popular. It is the best free
pr the FBI will ever get. But I remember watching
one show I did. I try to watch every now
and then, maybe once or two a year, and there
was a show on the International FBI International one and
(29:04):
they were in Italy, and during the first fifteen minutes
they killed with guns about seven people on Italian soil
and kept moving on, and I thought, oh, I can't
even I can't finish this, because you know, we're not
even allowed to carry guns in a foreign country as
an FBI agent assigned to you know, you know, Italy
(29:28):
or for so and they're killing people and no one
is putting handcuffs on them and taking them to jail.
So it's it's hard to watch. So if some little
boy or little girls someplaces watching that show and they say, oh,
I want to be an FBI agent, then I put
(29:48):
my hands up in surrender and say, keep going with
your show. Well, we'll turn them around and get them
set them straight, you know once once they actually get
into the FBI.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Well, I cannot agree more. I know a lot of
times people will ask me, oh, I saw such and
such show where the CSI pulled up in a hummer
and got out in stilettos and fishnet hose and a
mini skirt, and then she and the lead detective had
like this chemistry. Yeah, And they'll ask me, is that accurate?
(30:20):
And I'm like, oh, honey, that's dead on. Absolutely, that's
exactly what it's like. That's exactly what it's like. Every
day you dress you know, real sexy, and you fall
in love with the lead detective. That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
That's what we got there every day.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
But you know, it's kind of funny because the first
female police officer I ever saw on TV was policewoman
Angie Dickinson.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Oh, Angie Dickenson. Yeah, I definitely saw that show fierce.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
I thought she was unreal.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I wonder if you can still get that if it's
streaming anywhere it has to be, I'd love to watch
it again.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
But do you remember when she went under cover? Her
and she would always just play these whether it was
a hooker or you know, some business owner, well whoever
it was, but she would just take on these characters,
and I thought, man working undercover, That's what I want
to do, you know, So again to your point, whatever
(31:18):
fuels that interest is a good thing.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
We'll take it. It's a good thing. Yes, yes, again,
you know we'll have to set them straight. I you know,
we don't want them coming to you know, Quantico and
FBI Academy still believing that stuff. So hopefully they'll they'll
do their research.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
When can we kill people in Italy?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
We don't. We've certainly done with them coming and doing that.
Are embarrassing themselves in any other way, any other way.
Mine Hunter was one of my favorite shows, and I
was just so sad that we only got two seasons
out of that because I thought that was very well done.
They didn't because another one of my cliches is that
(32:01):
FBI profilers are hunting down serial killers. You know that
they're in the in the dark alley or the moldy
basement hunting down serial killers. And as we all know,
because you know, Julia Callie told you that when she
was on that they're consultants. You know, they really are
sitting at a desk most of the time and going
through the file and going through the interviews to see,
(32:23):
you know, what's done, what's been done. And the mind
Hunter show actually showed them as consultants working with you know,
the agents on the different squads, learning more and just
going out and doing their research and talking to serial killers.
I loved that show, and it ended in such a
(32:43):
way that you really want to know what happened. So
there's always these rumors every now and then about it
coming back for a third season. I hope it does,
because I really love that show.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Oh, I hope it does too. And you know, I
just got to meet John Douglas at Crome Con.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I've had him on my show. He's Oh, he's such
a wonderful guy.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Wonderful and I mean his stories in his cases, in
his background, I mean you could listen to him talk
for hours and hours and not even want to budge,
but you know, it was funny. I was telling him.
I had a professor when I was in college that
was working on the task force during the Missing and
Murdered children in Atlanta, and he talked about in Atlanta,
(33:26):
and he talked about when John Douglas came and was
helping with this profile, and that it was almost like
like he was an investigator, hard, no street level guy.
And then here comes this guy from the FBI saying
all these things like he's going to be kind of
weak and kind of pudgy and wears glasses and probably
when you arrest him, he's going to be wearing a
(33:47):
vest like from a suit. And he was like, what
kind of hocus pocus? Like, how could you possibly know
what this guy's going to be wearing? And you know,
at that time, and I think everybody's mind in Atlanta
when we finally saw Wayne Williams, that's not who we
had in mind, right, this monster was in our paid
(34:08):
about what this person should look like. And John Douglas,
of course was pretty dead owned and he was wearing
a vesk when they arrested him.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
There you go, well, you know, one of the things
I love to do is you know, once a month
I watch a TV show or movie and then I
review it for teachable moments about the FBI policy and procedures.
Last month it was Breakpoint, Remember that movie, the surfing movie.
(34:37):
Oh yeah, yeah, So I did that one. This month
it was Rob the Mob, a movie that has Ray
Romano and Andy Garcia in it. It's so much fun.
I used to look up movies as what they get
right and what they get wrong, and now looking at
it as finding teachable moments has brought the excitement of
(35:00):
watching the movie back to me because I don't have
to worry about, you know, critiquing it in a negative way,
by just using it to highlight something. And so I
really really enjoyed doing that.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
And you know what, when Breakpoint came out with Patrick
Swayzee and they rob those banks with the president mask,
that Halloween Nixon was everywhere everywhere, and I thought to myself,
this is the night. Halloween night is when you should
rob something a gas station because there's five hundred of
(35:34):
them everywhere, up and down the street, streets, everybody mixing mask.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
You'll find them, Go find them. He has a Mixon mask.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
You can't missing exactly. That's what I thought about. I
was like, this is the time you should do it,
no doubt.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Being in this true crime industry is I hate to
use the word fun because some of the cases, of
course that we talk about and we share are difficult,
and you know, they show the ugliness and the evil
that we have in the world. But what makes it
(36:16):
something that is when I use the word enjoyable, is
all of the people that really care and want to
be helpful and you know, want to be supportive. And
of course on my show, I talk about all kinds
of crimes. I'm not just talking about you know, the
missing and murdered. You know, I'm talking about espionage cases,
(36:41):
our frauds are cybercrime. You know. I try to do
a little bit of everything and keep a variety. But
just the reaction from the public, as you know, is
you know what keeps us motivated to keep doing this.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Absolutely, I'll tell it. I tell people all the time,
I love my job. It is enjoyable. It's exciting. I
can hear a sirene when I am on vacation in
another country and I'm like, I want to get in
the middle of.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Whatever it is, what's going on down there.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
That's right. But I tell people you want me to
feel that way, because the day that I don't, I
need to quit doing it. You want me to work
on your mama's case for twelve hours straight. You want
me to do that and then show up the next
day and do that again until you've got some type
of justice that you deserve and your mama deserves. That's
(37:38):
the bottom line, and we have to have that level
of I love this. I want to be a part
of it. Like you, you're retired, but you're watching movies
and TV once a month, critiquing it for a teachable moment.
You've got the podcast, you're writing the books, and I
want to tell y'all again these books, the FBI Myths
and Misconceptions and Paid a Play. Hey, you got to
(38:01):
get these books. They are so well done, and you
want to talk about teachable moments, they're all through there.
And then the podcast. I know y'all already know. I
know y'all do, because I've had people tell me when
you go have Jerry wiinim's own show. Well, I got
Jerry Williams on my show.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
You know, the retired FBI agent. Y'all know FBI retired
case file Review. Listen to the podcast if you haven't,
it's extraordinary. She is an artful storyteller and she's lived it.
That's the best part to me.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
When people talk about true crime, I don't want them
to forget about the other you know, types of crimes
that are being perpetrated against. You know your your family,
your friends, uh, and you know your co workers. There's
a lot of prime out there that people are losing.
You know, their lives, their loved ones, and their livelihoods
(38:58):
and life savings.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Well, I appreciate your career, I appreciate your devotion. It's
an honor to talk to you. It is an honor
for you to be a part of my Zone seven
because we are friends. And you ever need anything Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
You just holler, Okay, I got to get down to Atlanta.
I've never been. What I know.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
We got to make that happen. We might have to
do a wine in crime with her.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah. Has crime Con ever been in Atlanta?
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Nope?
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Made me to come to Atlanta. That absolutely. I missed
you at crime Con. I was not there this year
because there was a conflict. But I'll see you in
Denver next year.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I cannot wait, yep, I cannot wait for that to happen.
And it will be an honor to visit with you
and we'll catch up, y'all. I'm going to end Zone
seven the way that I always do with a quote.
With a gun, you can steal hundreds, but with a lie,
you can steal millions. Retired agent Jerry Williams, FBI. I'm
(40:06):
Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.
Host
Sheryl McCollum
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com