April 17, 2024 • 31 mins
March 30, 2024, Veronica Butler and her friend Julian Kelly were traveling from Kansas to Oklahoma to pick up Veronica's children for a birthday party when they disappeared. Their abandoned car was found 3 miles from the intended meeting spot, on a desolate dirt road a thousand feet off the main highway.
Guest Bio and Links:
Laura Ingle is an award-winning veteran broadcast journalist specializing in True Crime. She served as a Senior Correspondent with Fox News Channel for nearly 20 years from August 2005-June 2023 based in New York City. Laura has been covering the disappearance of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly. She has been on the ground in Oklahoma, providing firsthand updates and analysis.
Listeners can learn more about Laura on X @lauraingle and IG @lauraingletv
In this episode of Zone 7, Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum is joined by Laura Ingle to discuss the harsh possibilities surrounding the disappearance of Veronica Butler and Julian Kelly. With expert boots-on-the-ground insights, Laura unfolds the layers of a potential crime scene, weighs in on the contentious custody battle, and gives theories around the unanswered questions surrounding the case.
Show Notes:
- [0:00] Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
- [1:00] Today’s guest is Laura Ingle
- [1:30] Laura describes the scene and location Veronica and Julian went missing
- [7:00] Suspect pool theories
- [10:00] Potential weapons used
- [12:15] The meeting spot analysis
- [14:00] Custody visitations and motives
- [18:00] The location of where Veronica lives
- [23:00] The lack of information being released by authorities
- [30:30] “Narcissists don't co parent. They counter parent. They don't care about the collateral damage done to the children, as long as it hurts you.”
- Thanks for listening to another episode! If you’re loving the show and want to help grow the show, please head over to Itunes and leave a rating and review!
---
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors for unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnapping cases.
Social Links:
- Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
- Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
- Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
- Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
March thirtieth, twenty twenty four, Veronica Butler, twenty seven years old,
a mother of four, and her friend Julian Kelly, thirty nine,
from Kansas. We're traveling together to pick up Veronica's children
to go to a birthday party. They never arrived. Now, y'all,
(00:31):
we have got somebody boots on the ground. Literally, she
wasn't there last week. She wasn't there, you know, two
days ago. She's there right this minute. Laura Ingle, you
can find her at Laura Ingle on x and Laura
Ingle TV on Instagram. Please follow her. She is doing
(00:55):
some live feeds that are a money tree for us
to understand this scene out of Oklahoma, what it looks like,
and perhaps what the scene looks like can tell us
who did it. Laura, thank you so much for joining us.
Now I got to ask him. The two women were
driving from Kansas to Oklahoma and they just vanished. And
(01:19):
then law enforcement was able to locate the abandoned car
off a desolate road three miles from where they were
supposed to meet up and get the children.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
And you know, Cheryl, when we first heard that, when
I first heard I should say that the vehicle that
Veronica Butler was driving in that she was it was
her vehicle. She was the driver from what we've learned.
And I thought it was going to be on the
side of the highway, you know, like you pull over
you have car trouble, maybe you ran out of gas,
(01:52):
maybe you pulled over to check the directions on your phone.
But this was Road L and Highway ninety five, and
I thought it was just an innerce But where the
vehicle was found was a thousand feet in on this
dirt road. And when we had dropped a pin to
the location where we knew the car was, and as
we were driving, I thought, wow, you know, we were
(02:13):
going down the road and it's like this is much
further off the beaten path literally than we thought. And
this was a dirt road county roads. If you've ever
been in the country, you know what these look like.
You know, it's just a dirt road with some tall
grass on each side. And then we came upon a
yellow marker with like pretty yellow ribbon on a stick.
(02:34):
And then right near there there was a white cross
with the women's name written on it with yellow ribbons
and some bumblebees and some decorations on it, and I'm
not sure who left it there, but it was not
right off the road. It was down the road a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So it would appear to you that whoever drove that
did so deliberately for that distance. Yes, okay, because.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
That's not it's not something that you would somebody who said, well,
do you mean like it was far enough, Well, maybe
they were turning around. No, there's no way you could
turn around easily right off the side of the road.
This was one thousand and my GPS told me that
I have it on recording as we were turning left,
that your destination is one thousand feet as we were
turning off of the road onto road L off of
(03:19):
Highway ninety five.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
And to our knowledge, as the car didn't have a
flat tire, it wasn't at of gas, the hood wasn't up,
So even if you were having trouble, you would be
on the side of ninety five. You wouldn't be one
thousand feet in the middle of nowhere where they're not
going to see you from the what would we consider
in this situation the main road.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So even on ninety five when you did one of
your live feeds, which was so good, if you did
a three sixty. You can see for one hundred miles
and there's nothing.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And what's so interesting to me This is actually my
first time, I think in Oklahoma, the first time I've
been here, especially in the Panhandle when we have roads
in California where I'm from and my cousin is a
cattle rancher. Sure there's a lot of open space, but
you've got hills. They're not super mountainous in the Sacramento area,
but you know you've got some hills. You're going up
(04:11):
and down the oak trees. This is flat, is flat
as flat can be. And we put a We've actually
put a drone up so we could show our viewers
on News Nation and you know, everybody on social what
things look like. Because not only do you see the
wide open space of the farmland, you see the direction
(04:32):
of the asphalt of Highway ninety five and the other
connecting highways, but you also can see the industrial pig farms.
And when I heard pig farms that were in the
area that I was, I don't know. In my mind,
I was thinking, you know, fences and pigs and mud,
but they're actually like silver roofs, metal roofs, that you
(04:54):
that's a long row. That's really actually a massive area
that is the industrial pig farm, with big large pools
of water right and back. So the drone gave us
the ability to see what that nearest industrial pig farm
look like. Then if you're going down the road from
where the car was found, you've got the pig farm.
(05:15):
Then you keep going three miles and you've got that
abandoned gas station at four corners, which is I mean,
it looks like something out of Central Casting. It's you know,
tumble weeds, and you know, the windows look like they
are just darkened and dusty and dirty, and the gas
pump is all dilapidated, and that that was supposed to
(05:36):
be the meeting spot, And.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Did it, you know, strike you as odd that that
would be a matin spot to exchange children, especially if
you're having custody issues.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I'll say, yeah, well I think that if you you know,
we've been talking so much about the terrain and the desolation,
it's really I guess it's you know, it's the it's
the point where there's some actual concrete to stand on
a little bit or hardened dirt to stand and pull
over off of the path that the big rigs are
(06:09):
flying down, and this is an area where you could
have a meetup because there's just we keep saying this,
there's not a lot out there. There's just barber wire
fences and tall grass and cows. And here's a spot
that's halfway. It is supposed to be the middle ground
of where Veronica Butler lived in Kansas and where the
(06:29):
grandmother lived in Oklahoma. That was the idea of meet
in the middle.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about where they
came from and where they were going. So Elkhart, Kansas
has a population of less than two thousand people about
eighteen hundred and some change. Eva, Oklahoma has a population
of two hundred and sixty one. So they went from
a small town to an Eddy Betty town. So I'm
(06:54):
going to say your suspect pool shrinks because I would
think between those two small populated towns is nothing.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's right, there's absolutely nothing. And you know that's when
you're and that's when your heart beats fast. I mean
it didn't for me when we when we we'll get
to that in a minute. But like when you realize
if I have car trouble and if my cell phone
stops working, which is the case for many reporters that
have been out here, and we've all been telling each other,
make sure you have a lot of gas. Don't go
(07:25):
out there with a half tank. Ye make sure that
your phone is charged, make sure that you've got to
I mean, you know, obviously we're going into a situation
where things have happened. But I was given the advice
to make sure I essentially filed a flight plan is
what I've been calling it, where I had to tell
people where I was going. I actually went so far
(07:46):
as to tell my boss what my license plate number
of my rental car was. That is just just out
of an abundance of caution because of what we were
dealing with. But if you're a local, you know, you're
just you're just driving down the road. You want to
make sure you take those precautions. But between A and
B and C there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
There's nothing. So again, your suspect is going to either
be somebody that knows that you were going to be
on that road on that day, during that time, or
a trucker somebody that just happened upon you and thinks, hey,
this is an easy mark. Even though there's two people
in the car.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, and we've talked to people who know the area
well and they said, everybody is, you know, going with
the direction of it's probably look if something that bad happens.
If you're talking about finding a car that's abandoned with
two women, the wife of a local pastor and this
young woman going to meet her six and eight year
(08:41):
old child, and these people just vanish and there's a
sign of, you know, there's foul play. And we've heard
that there was possibly a hammer that was found in
the car. It sounds like there was blood. They're not
they're saying it was suspicious and foul play, but that's
kind of the word on the street. You're you're thinking
to yourself when like this happen, it sounds like it's personal.
(09:03):
But the locals that know the area say, hold on
a second. You should also know that there's a lot
of human trafficking in this area. There's a lot of
unsolved murders in this area because of the remoteness, because
there are not the only witnesses are the cattle. So
there's just kind of a confluence of different things that
(09:25):
we need to look at. It's easy, it is easy
because you know, this custody battle was so bitter. But
there are other factors to look at. The trucker, which
is right on the money. You've got to bring that
up because those truckers are going up and down those
highways the whole time that we were there. And then
the human trafficking angle and the gun running and the drugs.
(09:46):
There's a lot of that going on. Maybe it's all combined,
you know, maybe it's a little bit of all of it.
We just don't know because the OSBI isn't saying much
on that.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Let's just go with there is a hammer, and there
was other evidence in the car that they were in
grave danger, So let's just assume there was blood in that.
If there's a hammer, you're going to be able to
have touch DNA. You could possibly have a bloody fingerprint
on it. The fact that the person left it behind
they may not be a pro. The fact that they
(10:18):
used a hammer at all may indicate they're not a pro.
Because if you're trying to traffic somebody, the last thing
you want is then bleeding from the head because you
just bash them with a hammer. You know, it's going
to make things more complicated. Also, if this is a
pro or one person in a truck, they're not going
to drive three miles and then go one thousand feet
(10:41):
off the roadway to hide a car and then run
back to their truck. They risk being seen, and then
that leaves you where are the victims? Usually, if it's
a stranger, they don't have to take two victims and
drive them a long distance and then dispose of them. Normally,
these truckers, as you know, oh get somebody, do what
(11:02):
they do and throw them on the side of the
road and keep moving right.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You know. I was talking to one of the friends
that I met in the women's hometown of Hugoton, and
I said, can your mind go to somewhere that they're
somewhere that we haven't thought of? You know, is there
a scenario where they were abducted, that they are being
held somewhere in one of these barns or silos that
(11:31):
are everywhere, Because if that's me, if this is my
friend that I'm worried about, that's what I'm hoping for.
We're hoping that they've been taken and kidnapped. But I
haven't come across one person loved, one close or just
a neighbor in this town that thinks that there's any
other scenario other than this probably is not going to
turn out. Well.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I would have to agree with everybody in town, because
that's what I was going to ask you, Like, what
the vibe is of the town. I mean, they're not
to me, operating like there's a crazy person on the loose.
They're not operating like this person could come back or
is living among us. They're acting like we kind of
have an idea. And that's how I feel. I feel
(12:13):
like I've kind of got an idea. But you almost
have to start with family. You have to do that.
You've got to rule them out because again, I want
to know who's set up this meet and date on
this time and that location, because that narrows down. You
ain't talking about a handful of people that would know
that was going to happen. If there's grandma, if there's
(12:35):
a babysitter by, you know, the biological father, the two husbands.
I mean, you're talking about six people max that, oh,
we're going to exchange it whatever time and at this location.
So the fact that some stranger would intersect these two
women three miles from their destination not unheard of, but
(12:58):
still pretty astronomic.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And you know what else we have to look at,
and I've brought this up before on air, is this
court document I'm holding in my hand right now. It
was filed, it stamped from the court clerk on March twentieth,
twenty twenty four. And this is the defendant's Veronica Butler's
amended motion for increased visitation with the subject minor children.
(13:24):
And what this paperwork tells us is that she was
fighting tooth and nail to get more visitation with her children,
unsupervised visitation with her children. And there was a court
hearing scheduled for the middle of April on this and
(13:45):
in this court filing, when you flip through the pages,
it describes, from the point of view from Veronica Butler's attorney,
all of the different times that Grandma Tiffany Adams has
not followed the corpse rules on bringing the children to
(14:06):
a location where she could visit with her mother, and
it details, you know, she says that she was sick
and she you know, you have to give the there's
rules with child custody. If you're not going to make
a visitation, you have to tell somebody. If you're not
going to make the visitation on Saturday. You have to
tell somebody by Wednesday. And there's a list of all
these different times that they say that the grandmother did
(14:29):
not abide by the court order. And it missed week
after week after week of Veronica trying to see her children. So,
you know, we talked to a friend who saw Veronica
the day before she went missing, and she told me
that she was so excited it was her daughter's you know,
(14:50):
they were going to celebrate the birthday. And you know what, Cheryl,
I keep thinking about that, if you're a mom and
you're going to go celebrate your kid's birthday and pick
them up for a birthday party, what's in your car? Yes,
maybe a cake, yep, maybe balloons, maybe a present, maybe
something fun, maybe a Levey, maybe a little stuffed animal,
Like I know what it's you know, I know what
it's like to be a mom and have stuff for
(15:11):
your kids. Like I just keep thinking about what was
in the car for those children. But anyway, looking at
the court documents, this was heating up. This is the point,
this was heating up. These court documents that we have
found from this county in Oklahoma go back. I mean,
we were looking at court documents back to twenty fifteen
on the child custody issue, and with each court filing
(15:35):
it's more and more contentious.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Nine years of fighting. So now you're getting into motive, right,
I mean, if you and I were prosecutors and we're
building a case, this sounds like motive.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
When I look at the very first page of this
court filing, I my heart sinks because there was another
court approved supervisor that was supposed to be the person
that did the majority of these visits with Veronica and
her children. Her name is Cheryl, and so Cheryl is
(16:06):
the main person who's supposed to be doing all this.
Then it lists three other names right under Cheryl's approved
supervisor's name. One is and I Leave, the other is Robin,
and the other is Jillian. Those are the three alternates.
So there's four people here that were court approved supervisors
(16:29):
for this, and Jillian Kelly is the last one on
the list.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And so that's why she was in the car. So
Veronica was doing the right thing what the court asked
her to do. Jillian was doing the right thing what
her friend in the court asked her to do for
these children. Laura let me ask you something. Who alerted
the police? Do we know?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
That is such a great question. I asked the OSBI
Pio public information officer, who is it that called? Did
somebody call nine one one? We don't that somebody called
nine long one. They might have just said we need
a welfare check. Whatever, it's my understanding that it was
Veronica's fiance who was worried and took the drive and
(17:12):
found the car. That is what we are hearing. It's
not what's been confirmed. But the other thing that I
said to the attorney for Veronica, who I'm in touch with,
and to the OSBI, I said, am I to believe
that there was a grandmother standing at that abandoned gas
station holding the hands of two little kids? Is that
what I'm supposed to you know? Is that what I'm
(17:35):
supposed to be imagining right now? There are people that
told me that they don't This is hearsay, it's hearsay,
But there are people that told me that they don't
believe that grandma ever left the house.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
So you've done again some boots on the ground investigating,
and you went to Veronica's house. Did you see anything
that struck you as hey that could be helpful, or Hey,
A wonder if low Enforce that knows this, or somebody
told me a and I checked it out and it
(18:11):
looked accurate. Anything that you can tell us about where
Veronica started from?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Right, So we were in her hometown and I did
meet up with her friend in a park, and I say,
can you just show me where she lives so that
I can get an eyeball because there's been so much
talk about you know, obviously there's no cameras on the
route she was taking in the middle of nowhere. But
were their cameras in town on the route she took
(18:38):
out of town or where their cameras on her street?
And so I took a drive with a respectful distance
down her street and was able to observe her house.
And there were two that I could see cameras on
the outside of her house, one on the left and
one on the right by the driveway. And then yeah,
so I'm hoping that they were I'm hoping that I
(19:01):
don't know, you know, they pick up everything, right, So,
was she talking about something that may have happened. I've
heard that she I heard that she got a phone
call before she took that drive that wasn't a good one.
So was she You know, when you're going out to
your car, you're talking to your friend, you're talking to whoever.
So what could that camera have picked up not just
of her getting in her car, but what was she
(19:23):
saying walking from her front door, possibly holding things for
her kids, going to her vehicle and the driveway or
out on the street. Was there anything that was picked
up in terms of a clue, because there are two
cameras on the front of her house. Around the back
of the house, the fence is gone, but that's just
the nature of that neighborhood, I think, and some of
(19:45):
the some of the fence line that they have, the
fence was down and I could see that, you know.
The friend had told me that she had planned on
taking her children out on a boat that weekend, on
that Easter weekend, and there was a boat in the
backyard that I could see from the eye. So I
didn't see any cameras in the back I saw a trampoline,
I saw a basketball hoop, and the boat and a
(20:07):
it looked like a trailer. So the clear signs of
just you know, life interrupted and what she was hoping
to do with her kids that weekend.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Were there any sections of roadway where you lost complete service?
There was no sale service at all any of the
pertinent locations regarding this case.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
There was one section between where the vehicle was found
and the gas station where I was having trouble, and
my bars on my phone were dwindling down, you know,
as you as you drive down these roads and you're
looking saying, please please keep give me my three bars,
don't go down to one. And there was one point
where I got down to one bar. I have pretty
(20:54):
strong sell service, but it did go down to one,
and it made me really nervous.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
So let's just say there's two people involved. Two strangers
in a truck. The women get to the deserted gas
station and pull in. Somebody pulls in behind them, gets
in their car, drives them three miles back and then
down roade l then gets them in the other vehicle,
and the four of them take off after some exchange
of something with a hammer. You're talking about a quick exchange, right,
(21:22):
and you're talking about again somebody risk being seen. So
here's the deal. Did Grandma do we know if she
were there waiting, or the babysitter or whoever, was taking
the children to meet up. Did she start texting her?
Because let's just say she's the ex mother in law
that doesn't think she's any good for these children. And
(21:44):
when she's a no show, it seems like she would
immediately notify the court. It seems like she would immediately
start texting Jillian. It seems like she would immediately start
getting in touch with a guardian, a lightem or whoever.
To say. I told y'all she was no good and
she didn't show up today. You won't return my calls
or text messages. Did that happen? Do we know?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
We just don't know. I mean, the the OSBI hasn't
told us anything. I will say that I talked to
another friend today who didn't want to go on camera,
and she told me that, you know, the question has
been where the phones found? Where the purse is found?
And you know that's that's been you know the OSB.
(22:25):
I just they're doing a very good job of keeping
the information under wraps.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Right. Oh No, I think they should play this close
to the vast I think they shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Be telling us, right, But everybody wants to know because
and for us, for news reporters, we want to help.
We want to shine a light. You know, I came
marching in here into Oklahoma thinking that, you know, I
was going to stumble upon a grid search, a K
nine search, a command post is ZIP. There's nothing. It
was quiet, There is nothing, nothing going on except for
(22:56):
two people that are volunteers that are out there on
horseback and driving around, you know, talking to ranchers and
trying to help. And that's what we're here to do,
you know what. We show their pictures, we give the
descriptions we are trying. We talk to the family members,
keeping the story alive, brings out tips, brings out people
(23:17):
that can give us a clue. It's part of what
we do. And we just have been stonewalled with this
particular case. But to your point, I just we just
don't know if the phones were in the in the car.
I heard that somebody said that they were missing Veronica,
and this is, you know, five days in and sent
(23:38):
her a Facebook message, you know, just like a DM
and just to say, hey, I hope you're okay. And
the this is you know, what somebody told me. I
don't have this verified, but this is one of the
stories that we've been told and that they looked at
the message and it said read like the message bubble changed.
(23:58):
Now is it Is it Veronica checking her message? Maybe not?
It could be the police, right, It could be the
police that have her phone.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Sure, they could have the phone.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
They're watching to see, they're looking where, they're looking at
the digital footprint, they're looking at the messages that she had.
They're looking to see all over social media. But it
was just one of those you know, it's just one
of those things that happens that makes your heart stop
when you're hoping that your friend is going to be found. Okay.
But those are the types of little nuggets, little stories
that we're hearing with so many people so frustrated that
(24:27):
just want to know where are they? Are they okay?
If they're not okay, please tell us so that we
can help the family.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Again, understanding that this is a small town and lots
of wide open spaces between buildings and stores and that
sort of thing. But you and I both on multiple occasions,
have been to Delphi and I could not go anywhere.
They're what a flywer? Are there? Flyers up? Has there
(24:56):
been a vigil? I know the churches have gotten together
to pray but is there any organization about putting their
faces out there?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
There was a flyer I put that on my Instagram.
There was a flyer at a gas station, but it
was just it was on the door and it was
on the counter. And I asked the young lady that
was working as a cashier, I said, you know, have
you has anybody come in with tips? She said no,
we were just asked to put this out. And the
flyer was actually put out by Because I've asked the
(25:25):
OSBI for a copy of the flyer, they said it
didn't come from us, it came from the highway patrol.
So I've only seen two flyers. I haven't seen their
faces splashed everywhere, but again it's desolate. But in town,
I haven't even really seen them. But what I have
seen is yellow ribbons everywhere, yellow ribbons of hope on
(25:48):
the trees and the telephone polls. That's what you see everywhere.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
You know, there's not a lot of information being shared,
which is the right call. But in any case like this,
when you have got a UG custody battle, the suspects
are going to be the ex, the ex mother in law.
Is it possibly a murder for hire? Who wanted her gone,
Who would benefit the most from her being gone? And
(26:15):
then who's most likely to help. Does the biological father
have siblings or cousins or a best friend it might
help get rid of them. Is it a trucker, is
it a stranger? And so this needs to be a
parallel investigation. I believe the electronics are going to be key.
I believe what was left in that car is going
(26:35):
to be key. The hammer and the cell phone would
be the money tree.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
In my opinion, that's what we're hoping for. We're hoping
for information, We're hoping for anything, and just you know,
the desperation of the people that we spoke to. And again, no,
it's incredible the people that will not go on camera,
but people are really afraid, really a real sense of
fear here. This isn't like the other missing person's cases
(27:02):
I've covered, but the sense of fear, the talk of
sovereign citizens, and that's I keep hearing that over and
over again. I keep hearing about God's misfits. I keep
hearing about different groups that are out here in the country,
and people are just whatever connections there could be, and
(27:22):
I'm not saying there is, I'm just saying that these
are the types of words that are being spoken and
whispered because people are saying, I don't want to say anything,
because you know sovereign citizens that are out here, and
you know, these are people that don't believe that they're
you know, they don't adhere to the law, they don't
adhere to God's laws. They are they feel that they
(27:44):
can do what they want. And that's where the sense
of fear is coming from. That I can it's a
tangible sense that I can feel.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
We do not know what happened to them, but I
will say for the record how lucky that sovereign citizen
would be that they came along and the victim that
they chose had a meet and date, time and location
that they were three miles away from when they were
stopped by this sovereign citizen. They were going to miss
(28:14):
a critical court date. They had somebody with means, motive,
an opportunity, especially the motive warning these children, basically trying
to raise them right now, not sharing them, not showing
up even though the court has directed them to do so.
They have an ex they've been fighting with for nine years.
(28:35):
I mean, that's literally the entire life of the two
younger children. It was her car, which somebody in the
family would recognize from a distance. That's a lot for
me to absorb to say, yeah, none of that's got
anything to do with it. It's probably this person who's never
met her, never seen her, and took the risk to say, hey,
(28:57):
I'm going to kidnap two women and leave enough evidences
in the car that OSBI thinks something terrible has happened.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
And just again, I can't help, but I'm just staring.
I'm sitting here staring at this court document. How are
how are these other three women? They're all women who
are the court approved supervisors of this exchange and visitation?
How are you feeling right now? If your name is Cheryl, Nileen, Robin,
(29:28):
Jillian was the last time? It was Easter weekend, right,
so a lot of people might have been out of town.
I don't have any knowledge of that, but I'm just
thinking of you know, they probably ticked down the list
and it was the pastor's wife who on a Saturday
before Easter said I can do it.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
And so again, I would love to talk to the
other women on that list. What was Grandma like to
work with? Was she difficult? Was she kind? Was she easygoing?
Y'all dealt with her? Y'all showed up to visitations. They
need to be interviewed immediately. Laura, I cannot thank you enough.
(30:04):
And again, y'all, I've just got to direct y'all to
Laura Ingle TV on Instagram and Laura Ingle on X
Her stuff is top drawer. She's a pro. You've heard her.
You know. She won't even let me get too far
out of bounds without bringing it back correctly. So, Laura,
thank you so much. You stay safe out there and
(30:25):
we will talk to you again soon. And if anything breaks, honey,
let me know.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote. Narcissists don't co parent, They
counter parent. They don't care about the collateral damage done
to the children as long as it hurts you unknown.
I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven, the FA
March thirtieth, twenty twenty four, Veronica Butler, twenty seven years old,
a mother of four, and her friend Julian Kelly, thirty nine,
from Kansas. We're traveling together to pick up Veronica's children
to go to a birthday party. They never arrived. Now, y'all,
(00:31):
we have got somebody boots on the ground. Literally, she
wasn't there last week. She wasn't there, you know, two
days ago. She's there right this minute. Laura Ingle, you
can find her at Laura Ingle on x and Laura
Ingle TV on Instagram. Please follow her. She is doing
(00:55):
some live feeds that are a money tree for us
to understand this scene out of Oklahoma, what it looks like,
and perhaps what the scene looks like can tell us
who did it. Laura, thank you so much for joining us.
Now I got to ask him. The two women were
driving from Kansas to Oklahoma and they just vanished. And
(01:19):
then law enforcement was able to locate the abandoned car
off a desolate road three miles from where they were
supposed to meet up and get the children.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
And you know, Cheryl, when we first heard that, when
I first heard I should say that the vehicle that
Veronica Butler was driving in that she was it was
her vehicle. She was the driver from what we've learned.
And I thought it was going to be on the
side of the highway, you know, like you pull over
you have car trouble, maybe you ran out of gas,
(01:52):
maybe you pulled over to check the directions on your phone.
But this was Road L and Highway ninety five, and
I thought it was just an innerce But where the
vehicle was found was a thousand feet in on this
dirt road. And when we had dropped a pin to
the location where we knew the car was, and as
we were driving, I thought, wow, you know, we were
(02:13):
going down the road and it's like this is much
further off the beaten path literally than we thought. And
this was a dirt road county roads. If you've ever
been in the country, you know what these look like.
You know, it's just a dirt road with some tall
grass on each side. And then we came upon a
yellow marker with like pretty yellow ribbon on a stick.
(02:34):
And then right near there there was a white cross
with the women's name written on it with yellow ribbons
and some bumblebees and some decorations on it, and I'm
not sure who left it there, but it was not
right off the road. It was down the road a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So it would appear to you that whoever drove that
did so deliberately for that distance. Yes, okay, because.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
That's not it's not something that you would somebody who said, well,
do you mean like it was far enough, Well, maybe
they were turning around. No, there's no way you could
turn around easily right off the side of the road.
This was one thousand and my GPS told me that
I have it on recording as we were turning left,
that your destination is one thousand feet as we were
turning off of the road onto road L off of
(03:19):
Highway ninety five.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
And to our knowledge, as the car didn't have a
flat tire, it wasn't at of gas, the hood wasn't up,
So even if you were having trouble, you would be
on the side of ninety five. You wouldn't be one
thousand feet in the middle of nowhere where they're not
going to see you from the what would we consider
in this situation the main road.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So even on ninety five when you did one of
your live feeds, which was so good, if you did
a three sixty. You can see for one hundred miles
and there's nothing.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And what's so interesting to me This is actually my
first time, I think in Oklahoma, the first time I've
been here, especially in the Panhandle when we have roads
in California where I'm from and my cousin is a
cattle rancher. Sure there's a lot of open space, but
you've got hills. They're not super mountainous in the Sacramento area,
but you know you've got some hills. You're going up
(04:11):
and down the oak trees. This is flat, is flat
as flat can be. And we put a We've actually
put a drone up so we could show our viewers
on News Nation and you know, everybody on social what
things look like. Because not only do you see the
wide open space of the farmland, you see the direction
(04:32):
of the asphalt of Highway ninety five and the other
connecting highways, but you also can see the industrial pig farms.
And when I heard pig farms that were in the
area that I was, I don't know. In my mind,
I was thinking, you know, fences and pigs and mud,
but they're actually like silver roofs, metal roofs, that you
(04:54):
that's a long row. That's really actually a massive area
that is the industrial pig farm, with big large pools
of water right and back. So the drone gave us
the ability to see what that nearest industrial pig farm
look like. Then if you're going down the road from
where the car was found, you've got the pig farm.
(05:15):
Then you keep going three miles and you've got that
abandoned gas station at four corners, which is I mean,
it looks like something out of Central Casting. It's you know,
tumble weeds, and you know, the windows look like they
are just darkened and dusty and dirty, and the gas
pump is all dilapidated, and that that was supposed to
(05:36):
be the meeting spot, And.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Did it, you know, strike you as odd that that
would be a matin spot to exchange children, especially if
you're having custody issues.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I'll say, yeah, well I think that if you you know,
we've been talking so much about the terrain and the desolation,
it's really I guess it's you know, it's the it's
the point where there's some actual concrete to stand on
a little bit or hardened dirt to stand and pull
over off of the path that the big rigs are
(06:09):
flying down, and this is an area where you could
have a meetup because there's just we keep saying this,
there's not a lot out there. There's just barber wire
fences and tall grass and cows. And here's a spot
that's halfway. It is supposed to be the middle ground
of where Veronica Butler lived in Kansas and where the
(06:29):
grandmother lived in Oklahoma. That was the idea of meet
in the middle.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about where they
came from and where they were going. So Elkhart, Kansas
has a population of less than two thousand people about
eighteen hundred and some change. Eva, Oklahoma has a population
of two hundred and sixty one. So they went from
a small town to an Eddy Betty town. So I'm
(06:54):
going to say your suspect pool shrinks because I would
think between those two small populated towns is nothing.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's right, there's absolutely nothing. And you know that's when
you're and that's when your heart beats fast. I mean
it didn't for me when we when we we'll get
to that in a minute. But like when you realize
if I have car trouble and if my cell phone
stops working, which is the case for many reporters that
have been out here, and we've all been telling each other,
make sure you have a lot of gas. Don't go
(07:25):
out there with a half tank. Ye make sure that
your phone is charged, make sure that you've got to
I mean, you know, obviously we're going into a situation
where things have happened. But I was given the advice
to make sure I essentially filed a flight plan is
what I've been calling it, where I had to tell
people where I was going. I actually went so far
(07:46):
as to tell my boss what my license plate number
of my rental car was. That is just just out
of an abundance of caution because of what we were
dealing with. But if you're a local, you know, you're
just you're just driving down the road. You want to
make sure you take those precautions. But between A and
B and C there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
There's nothing. So again, your suspect is going to either
be somebody that knows that you were going to be
on that road on that day, during that time, or
a trucker somebody that just happened upon you and thinks, hey,
this is an easy mark. Even though there's two people
in the car.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, and we've talked to people who know the area
well and they said, everybody is, you know, going with
the direction of it's probably look if something that bad happens.
If you're talking about finding a car that's abandoned with
two women, the wife of a local pastor and this
young woman going to meet her six and eight year
(08:41):
old child, and these people just vanish and there's a
sign of, you know, there's foul play. And we've heard
that there was possibly a hammer that was found in
the car. It sounds like there was blood. They're not
they're saying it was suspicious and foul play, but that's
kind of the word on the street. You're you're thinking
to yourself when like this happen, it sounds like it's personal.
(09:03):
But the locals that know the area say, hold on
a second. You should also know that there's a lot
of human trafficking in this area. There's a lot of
unsolved murders in this area because of the remoteness, because
there are not the only witnesses are the cattle. So
there's just kind of a confluence of different things that
(09:25):
we need to look at. It's easy, it is easy
because you know, this custody battle was so bitter. But
there are other factors to look at. The trucker, which
is right on the money. You've got to bring that
up because those truckers are going up and down those
highways the whole time that we were there. And then
the human trafficking angle and the gun running and the drugs.
(09:46):
There's a lot of that going on. Maybe it's all combined,
you know, maybe it's a little bit of all of it.
We just don't know because the OSBI isn't saying much
on that.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Let's just go with there is a hammer, and there
was other evidence in the car that they were in
grave danger, So let's just assume there was blood in that.
If there's a hammer, you're going to be able to
have touch DNA. You could possibly have a bloody fingerprint
on it. The fact that the person left it behind
they may not be a pro. The fact that they
(10:18):
used a hammer at all may indicate they're not a pro.
Because if you're trying to traffic somebody, the last thing
you want is then bleeding from the head because you
just bash them with a hammer. You know, it's going
to make things more complicated. Also, if this is a
pro or one person in a truck, they're not going
to drive three miles and then go one thousand feet
(10:41):
off the roadway to hide a car and then run
back to their truck. They risk being seen, and then
that leaves you where are the victims? Usually, if it's
a stranger, they don't have to take two victims and
drive them a long distance and then dispose of them. Normally,
these truckers, as you know, oh get somebody, do what
(11:02):
they do and throw them on the side of the
road and keep moving right.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You know. I was talking to one of the friends
that I met in the women's hometown of Hugoton, and
I said, can your mind go to somewhere that they're
somewhere that we haven't thought of? You know, is there
a scenario where they were abducted, that they are being
held somewhere in one of these barns or silos that
(11:31):
are everywhere, Because if that's me, if this is my
friend that I'm worried about, that's what I'm hoping for.
We're hoping that they've been taken and kidnapped. But I
haven't come across one person loved, one close or just
a neighbor in this town that thinks that there's any
other scenario other than this probably is not going to
turn out. Well.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I would have to agree with everybody in town, because
that's what I was going to ask you, Like, what
the vibe is of the town. I mean, they're not
to me, operating like there's a crazy person on the loose.
They're not operating like this person could come back or
is living among us. They're acting like we kind of
have an idea. And that's how I feel. I feel
(12:13):
like I've kind of got an idea. But you almost
have to start with family. You have to do that.
You've got to rule them out because again, I want
to know who's set up this meet and date on
this time and that location, because that narrows down. You
ain't talking about a handful of people that would know
that was going to happen. If there's grandma, if there's
(12:35):
a babysitter by, you know, the biological father, the two husbands.
I mean, you're talking about six people max that, oh,
we're going to exchange it whatever time and at this location.
So the fact that some stranger would intersect these two
women three miles from their destination not unheard of, but
(12:58):
still pretty astronomic.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And you know what else we have to look at,
and I've brought this up before on air, is this
court document I'm holding in my hand right now. It
was filed, it stamped from the court clerk on March twentieth,
twenty twenty four. And this is the defendant's Veronica Butler's
amended motion for increased visitation with the subject minor children.
(13:24):
And what this paperwork tells us is that she was
fighting tooth and nail to get more visitation with her children,
unsupervised visitation with her children. And there was a court
hearing scheduled for the middle of April on this and
(13:45):
in this court filing, when you flip through the pages,
it describes, from the point of view from Veronica Butler's attorney,
all of the different times that Grandma Tiffany Adams has
not followed the corpse rules on bringing the children to
(14:06):
a location where she could visit with her mother, and
it details, you know, she says that she was sick
and she you know, you have to give the there's
rules with child custody. If you're not going to make
a visitation, you have to tell somebody. If you're not
going to make the visitation on Saturday. You have to
tell somebody by Wednesday. And there's a list of all
these different times that they say that the grandmother did
(14:29):
not abide by the court order. And it missed week
after week after week of Veronica trying to see her children. So,
you know, we talked to a friend who saw Veronica
the day before she went missing, and she told me
that she was so excited it was her daughter's you know,
(14:50):
they were going to celebrate the birthday. And you know what, Cheryl,
I keep thinking about that, if you're a mom and
you're going to go celebrate your kid's birthday and pick
them up for a birthday party, what's in your car? Yes,
maybe a cake, yep, maybe balloons, maybe a present, maybe
something fun, maybe a Levey, maybe a little stuffed animal,
Like I know what it's you know, I know what
it's like to be a mom and have stuff for
(15:11):
your kids. Like I just keep thinking about what was
in the car for those children. But anyway, looking at
the court documents, this was heating up. This is the point,
this was heating up. These court documents that we have
found from this county in Oklahoma go back. I mean,
we were looking at court documents back to twenty fifteen
on the child custody issue, and with each court filing
(15:35):
it's more and more contentious.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Nine years of fighting. So now you're getting into motive, right,
I mean, if you and I were prosecutors and we're
building a case, this sounds like motive.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
When I look at the very first page of this
court filing, I my heart sinks because there was another
court approved supervisor that was supposed to be the person
that did the majority of these visits with Veronica and
her children. Her name is Cheryl, and so Cheryl is
(16:06):
the main person who's supposed to be doing all this.
Then it lists three other names right under Cheryl's approved
supervisor's name. One is and I Leave, the other is Robin,
and the other is Jillian. Those are the three alternates.
So there's four people here that were court approved supervisors
(16:29):
for this, and Jillian Kelly is the last one on
the list.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And so that's why she was in the car. So
Veronica was doing the right thing what the court asked
her to do. Jillian was doing the right thing what
her friend in the court asked her to do for
these children. Laura let me ask you something. Who alerted
the police? Do we know?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
That is such a great question. I asked the OSBI
Pio public information officer, who is it that called? Did
somebody call nine one one? We don't that somebody called
nine long one. They might have just said we need
a welfare check. Whatever, it's my understanding that it was
Veronica's fiance who was worried and took the drive and
(17:12):
found the car. That is what we are hearing. It's
not what's been confirmed. But the other thing that I
said to the attorney for Veronica, who I'm in touch with,
and to the OSBI, I said, am I to believe
that there was a grandmother standing at that abandoned gas
station holding the hands of two little kids? Is that
what I'm supposed to you know? Is that what I'm
(17:35):
supposed to be imagining right now? There are people that
told me that they don't This is hearsay, it's hearsay,
But there are people that told me that they don't
believe that grandma ever left the house.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
So you've done again some boots on the ground investigating,
and you went to Veronica's house. Did you see anything
that struck you as hey that could be helpful, or Hey,
A wonder if low Enforce that knows this, or somebody
told me a and I checked it out and it
(18:11):
looked accurate. Anything that you can tell us about where
Veronica started from?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Right, So we were in her hometown and I did
meet up with her friend in a park, and I say,
can you just show me where she lives so that
I can get an eyeball because there's been so much
talk about you know, obviously there's no cameras on the
route she was taking in the middle of nowhere. But
were their cameras in town on the route she took
(18:38):
out of town or where their cameras on her street?
And so I took a drive with a respectful distance
down her street and was able to observe her house.
And there were two that I could see cameras on
the outside of her house, one on the left and
one on the right by the driveway. And then yeah,
so I'm hoping that they were I'm hoping that I
(19:01):
don't know, you know, they pick up everything, right, So,
was she talking about something that may have happened. I've
heard that she I heard that she got a phone
call before she took that drive that wasn't a good one.
So was she You know, when you're going out to
your car, you're talking to your friend, you're talking to whoever.
So what could that camera have picked up not just
of her getting in her car, but what was she
(19:23):
saying walking from her front door, possibly holding things for
her kids, going to her vehicle and the driveway or
out on the street. Was there anything that was picked
up in terms of a clue, because there are two
cameras on the front of her house. Around the back
of the house, the fence is gone, but that's just
the nature of that neighborhood, I think, and some of
(19:45):
the some of the fence line that they have, the
fence was down and I could see that, you know.
The friend had told me that she had planned on
taking her children out on a boat that weekend, on
that Easter weekend, and there was a boat in the
backyard that I could see from the eye. So I
didn't see any cameras in the back I saw a trampoline,
I saw a basketball hoop, and the boat and a
(20:07):
it looked like a trailer. So the clear signs of
just you know, life interrupted and what she was hoping
to do with her kids that weekend.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Were there any sections of roadway where you lost complete service?
There was no sale service at all any of the
pertinent locations regarding this case.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
There was one section between where the vehicle was found
and the gas station where I was having trouble, and
my bars on my phone were dwindling down, you know,
as you as you drive down these roads and you're
looking saying, please please keep give me my three bars,
don't go down to one. And there was one point
where I got down to one bar. I have pretty
(20:54):
strong sell service, but it did go down to one,
and it made me really nervous.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
So let's just say there's two people involved. Two strangers
in a truck. The women get to the deserted gas
station and pull in. Somebody pulls in behind them, gets
in their car, drives them three miles back and then
down roade l then gets them in the other vehicle,
and the four of them take off after some exchange
of something with a hammer. You're talking about a quick exchange, right,
(21:22):
and you're talking about again somebody risk being seen. So
here's the deal. Did Grandma do we know if she
were there waiting, or the babysitter or whoever, was taking
the children to meet up. Did she start texting her?
Because let's just say she's the ex mother in law
that doesn't think she's any good for these children. And
(21:44):
when she's a no show, it seems like she would
immediately notify the court. It seems like she would immediately
start texting Jillian. It seems like she would immediately start
getting in touch with a guardian, a lightem or whoever.
To say. I told y'all she was no good and
she didn't show up today. You won't return my calls
or text messages. Did that happen? Do we know?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
We just don't know. I mean, the the OSBI hasn't
told us anything. I will say that I talked to
another friend today who didn't want to go on camera,
and she told me that, you know, the question has
been where the phones found? Where the purse is found?
And you know that's that's been you know the OSB.
(22:25):
I just they're doing a very good job of keeping
the information under wraps.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Right. Oh No, I think they should play this close
to the vast I think they shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Be telling us, right, But everybody wants to know because
and for us, for news reporters, we want to help.
We want to shine a light. You know, I came
marching in here into Oklahoma thinking that, you know, I
was going to stumble upon a grid search, a K
nine search, a command post is ZIP. There's nothing. It
was quiet, There is nothing, nothing going on except for
(22:56):
two people that are volunteers that are out there on
horseback and driving around, you know, talking to ranchers and
trying to help. And that's what we're here to do,
you know what. We show their pictures, we give the
descriptions we are trying. We talk to the family members,
keeping the story alive, brings out tips, brings out people
(23:17):
that can give us a clue. It's part of what
we do. And we just have been stonewalled with this
particular case. But to your point, I just we just
don't know if the phones were in the in the car.
I heard that somebody said that they were missing Veronica,
and this is, you know, five days in and sent
(23:38):
her a Facebook message, you know, just like a DM
and just to say, hey, I hope you're okay. And
the this is you know, what somebody told me. I
don't have this verified, but this is one of the
stories that we've been told and that they looked at
the message and it said read like the message bubble changed.
(23:58):
Now is it Is it Veronica checking her message? Maybe not?
It could be the police, right, It could be the
police that have her phone.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Sure, they could have the phone.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
They're watching to see, they're looking where, they're looking at
the digital footprint, they're looking at the messages that she had.
They're looking to see all over social media. But it
was just one of those you know, it's just one
of those things that happens that makes your heart stop
when you're hoping that your friend is going to be found. Okay.
But those are the types of little nuggets, little stories
that we're hearing with so many people so frustrated that
(24:27):
just want to know where are they? Are they okay?
If they're not okay, please tell us so that we
can help the family.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Again, understanding that this is a small town and lots
of wide open spaces between buildings and stores and that
sort of thing. But you and I both on multiple occasions,
have been to Delphi and I could not go anywhere.
They're what a flywer? Are there? Flyers up? Has there
(24:56):
been a vigil? I know the churches have gotten together
to pray but is there any organization about putting their
faces out there?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
There was a flyer I put that on my Instagram.
There was a flyer at a gas station, but it
was just it was on the door and it was
on the counter. And I asked the young lady that
was working as a cashier, I said, you know, have
you has anybody come in with tips? She said no,
we were just asked to put this out. And the
flyer was actually put out by Because I've asked the
(25:25):
OSBI for a copy of the flyer, they said it
didn't come from us, it came from the highway patrol.
So I've only seen two flyers. I haven't seen their
faces splashed everywhere, but again it's desolate. But in town,
I haven't even really seen them. But what I have
seen is yellow ribbons everywhere, yellow ribbons of hope on
(25:48):
the trees and the telephone polls. That's what you see everywhere.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
You know, there's not a lot of information being shared,
which is the right call. But in any case like this,
when you have got a UG custody battle, the suspects
are going to be the ex, the ex mother in law.
Is it possibly a murder for hire? Who wanted her gone,
Who would benefit the most from her being gone? And
(26:15):
then who's most likely to help. Does the biological father
have siblings or cousins or a best friend it might
help get rid of them. Is it a trucker, is
it a stranger? And so this needs to be a
parallel investigation. I believe the electronics are going to be key.
I believe what was left in that car is going
(26:35):
to be key. The hammer and the cell phone would
be the money tree.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
In my opinion, that's what we're hoping for. We're hoping
for information, We're hoping for anything, and just you know,
the desperation of the people that we spoke to. And again, no,
it's incredible the people that will not go on camera,
but people are really afraid, really a real sense of
fear here. This isn't like the other missing person's cases
(27:02):
I've covered, but the sense of fear, the talk of
sovereign citizens, and that's I keep hearing that over and
over again. I keep hearing about God's misfits. I keep
hearing about different groups that are out here in the country,
and people are just whatever connections there could be, and
(27:22):
I'm not saying there is, I'm just saying that these
are the types of words that are being spoken and
whispered because people are saying, I don't want to say anything,
because you know sovereign citizens that are out here, and
you know, these are people that don't believe that they're
you know, they don't adhere to the law, they don't
adhere to God's laws. They are they feel that they
(27:44):
can do what they want. And that's where the sense
of fear is coming from. That I can it's a
tangible sense that I can feel.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
We do not know what happened to them, but I
will say for the record how lucky that sovereign citizen
would be that they came along and the victim that
they chose had a meet and date, time and location
that they were three miles away from when they were
stopped by this sovereign citizen. They were going to miss
(28:14):
a critical court date. They had somebody with means, motive,
an opportunity, especially the motive warning these children, basically trying
to raise them right now, not sharing them, not showing
up even though the court has directed them to do so.
They have an ex they've been fighting with for nine years.
(28:35):
I mean, that's literally the entire life of the two
younger children. It was her car, which somebody in the
family would recognize from a distance. That's a lot for
me to absorb to say, yeah, none of that's got
anything to do with it. It's probably this person who's never
met her, never seen her, and took the risk to say, hey,
(28:57):
I'm going to kidnap two women and leave enough evidences
in the car that OSBI thinks something terrible has happened.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
And just again, I can't help, but I'm just staring.
I'm sitting here staring at this court document. How are
how are these other three women? They're all women who
are the court approved supervisors of this exchange and visitation?
How are you feeling right now? If your name is Cheryl, Nileen, Robin,
(29:28):
Jillian was the last time? It was Easter weekend, right,
so a lot of people might have been out of town.
I don't have any knowledge of that, but I'm just
thinking of you know, they probably ticked down the list
and it was the pastor's wife who on a Saturday
before Easter said I can do it.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
And so again, I would love to talk to the
other women on that list. What was Grandma like to
work with? Was she difficult? Was she kind? Was she easygoing?
Y'all dealt with her? Y'all showed up to visitations. They
need to be interviewed immediately. Laura, I cannot thank you enough.
(30:04):
And again, y'all, I've just got to direct y'all to
Laura Ingle TV on Instagram and Laura Ingle on X
Her stuff is top drawer. She's a pro. You've heard her.
You know. She won't even let me get too far
out of bounds without bringing it back correctly. So, Laura,
thank you so much. You stay safe out there and
(30:25):
we will talk to you again soon. And if anything breaks, honey,
let me know.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote. Narcissists don't co parent, They
counter parent. They don't care about the collateral damage done
to the children as long as it hurts you unknown.
I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven, the FA
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